Shitholers of the World Are Making America Great

It was true when the Pilgrims came, it's true now, and it'll be true forever.

Here's a nifty table put together by American Enterprise Institute's Mark Perry, a University of Michigan economics professor who runs the super smart blog Carpe Diem. It makes an illuminating companion to my post on Indian shitholers.

Let that sink in before you talk smack again, Mr. President!

Mark Perry

Comments

[Pepys the cat]

So, people who have the ambition and wherewithal to uproot themselves and travel half way around the globe are successful.

Cool Story Desi Bro.

[IceTrey]

It's exactly what Trump was talking about we want the best to come here. If you apply legally and can make it here on your own you're welcome.

[loveconstitution1789]

It is like she is parroting the immigration policy that most Americans want.

Limited immigration with good vesting so America mainly gets ambitious and industrious non-Americans to join us in the USA.

[DiegoF]

Are you suggesting that America should make clear that immigrants are expected to make sure to wear our "vests," so we won't outpopulate you in the long run? How racist!

[Jerryskids]

"Head vest, young man!"

[Akshar]

Don't look at what Monkey says. Check what Monkey does.

Trump has made legal immigration even more difficult and created more and more restrictions on H1Bs and their spousal visas which will only promote fraud and put highly skilled Individuals check for alternatives.

None of the US immigration policies are welcoming at all.

[sharmota4zeb]

Yeah, this post proves the point attributed to Trump. He allegedly said he want's immigrants from Asia, and every country on that list is in Asia or partly in Asia.

I support opening the diversity lottery to all countries and giving half a million or a million diversity lottery visas each year as a matter of principle.

[fafalone]

Not to mention I don't see any African countries on that list besides Egypt, nor Haiti or El Salvador, which were the countries Cheetolini was talking about.

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[Juice]

What part of legal immigration do you not understand?

[hadedid]

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[zonevazo]

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[Pepys the cat]

I also kind of love that Dalmia took Trump's implication and took it to the most racist conclusion possible.

[JoeBlow123]

Agreed. I am not sure I totally understand the logic behind how it is somehow bad to imply certain countries people are shitholes based on some metric such as wealth or intelligence of their inhabitants and then turn around and show different countries people are better than white Americans because, based on the same metrics, they make more money or are smarter than white Americans.

Seems hypocritical. Why is it ok in one direction and not the other? This article smacks of race baiting to me.

[DiegoF]

At this point she's not even doing that; she produced some of her sharpest observations (and Reason's on this occasion--low bar, I know) in the previous article, but by now she's lost the Trump thread entirely and is just using him as a transparent excuse to brag about how successful people of her race are in this country compared to others.

(Also, I'm pissed at her for shouting out that silly and superficial "shit in the street" comment in the other article instead of the brilliant and insightful subthread it intruded upon.)

Trump's comment was sloppy and unnuanced [picks jaw up from the floor] because it ran together country of origin and desirability of individuals (mostly economic productivity, but presumably also sociopolitical culture) in a crude way, ignoring the immigration conditions (imposed by U.S. policy and otherwise) that can cause the two to come apart--and thereby robbing us of the usefulness of the whole conversation, i.e. determining the best policy to impose...

[DiegoF]

...For instance, one of the poorest and least-educated countries on Earth produces an absurdly wealthy American population; whereas Latin America, which is much wealthier than India, produces by far the poorest and least-educated. And we see it all over the place: Filipino-Americans are incredibly high-income and high-education; African-Americans (the real ones) and Jamaican-Americans do rather well too. We've been going on about how Haiti has an absurdly tiny fraction of the Dominican Republic's per capita income; well, Haitian-Americans are much wealthier and better educated than their Dominican counterparts.

It works for political values too, of course. Ireland was a democracy during the late 20th century; Poland was a Second World hellhole. But the Poles sent here a group with a passion for liberty that ended up prospering economically; whereas Ireland (buoyed by the "diversity" and "chain migration" programs that Trump is supposedly "racist" to bring up) sent a group that ended up much poorer, and didn't seem to have done anything to ameliorate the increasingly deranged terrorist sympathies of the older Irish-American population.

Like I said, we need a better-organized, better-conceived conversation about these things.

[DiegoF]

Addendum: Trump's original "racist" comment, the infamous "drug dealers, criminals, rapists," though obviously playing to the cheap seats, at least had a subtlety that the press and other opportunists were in no particular mood to explore: Trump didn't say those things about Mexicans per se; he merely accused the country of operating a Mariel-style program to get rid of their problems. Which was certainly simplistic, and insulting of Mexicans here; but at least it had hope of provoking a productive discussion about contrasts in immigration conditions. Most Salvadorian-Americans are upright, hardworking people; but are we really to pretend in the name of "avoiding generalizations" that there are roving gangs of sadistic, facially-tattooed Indian-American youth terrorizing our communities? That it's racist against Latinos to suggest otherwise? This is not helpful.

Unfortunately, Trump's latest comment drops that subtlety in favor of a crude association between "shitholes" and undesirable immigrant populations. That's the only real source of my disappointment.

[JoeBlow123]

Well wrote 🙂 I hope we one day walk off this ledge the "immigration" debate has ended up on. Most people I feel are being forced to the extremes in these recent debates, either we need to accept everyone (socialist globalists) or we need to keep everyone out (racists).

It has become rather emotionally invested, not a good way to lead a productive REASONABLE debate. I do not feel our fearless Reason staff are doing a good job leading this debate either with their click-baitey, emotional, hyperbolic articles. *shrug*

[damikesc]

Also seems unconcerned that there is still zero evidence Trump said it with several saying he specifically he did not.

[Obvious]

Why are we pretending that there are no white people IN THESE VERY SHITHOLES.

El Salvador is populated by descendants of white European Spaniards.

[GILMORE?]

"descendants"

you could just as well argue that Europe is populated by "descendants" of East Africans. its a meaningless point. you "descend" far enough, you're no longer fruit of the tree. ""86.3% of the population are mestizo"" if you wanted to get pedantic you could try measuring the % weight of that OG Conquistador blood, but you'd come out far more Olmec than Cortez.

anyway, its a stupid point one way or the other. a shithole it remains nonetheless.

[Obvious]

It also has nothing to do with the point. Thanks though.

[GILMORE?]

As i said: stupid regardless.

[Obvious]

I suppose one could think it was stulilpid if one were an imbecile who didn't see the breakdown Dalmia uses.

[Obvious]

*stupid, sorry I don't use that word very often

[GILMORE?]

No one reads Shikha articles.

[123 go]

Honestly, the only stupid point I see is yours.

[123 go]

""86.3% of the population are mestizo""

Which means that ~14 % aren't. And seemingly, the point was that they are being ignored to further a talking point of "racism."

A point you apparently decided to elide in order to whine about something stupid and unrelated.

[GILMORE?]

"whine"

(looks at all your posts)

lol

[JeremyR]

Uruguay is really the only country that is, because they killed all the Indians there.

[vek]

Argentina is very high as well. Although many are mixed there, around 90% of the average Argentine's genetics is European. Mostly Spanish and Italian, but Germans and others mixed in as well. The sad thing is that Mexico and central America, where we get most of our Hispanics from, are the least white parts of Hispanic America. The racial screeching from the left would be toned down a lot more if it were low education whiter blue eyed Argentine's coming here!

[shamrock]

I don't see Haiti or any African nation on that list.

[Obvious]

Nor Mexico.

[Rich]

Specially Selected Ethnics Groups, DUH!

[Deflator Mouse]

A "Specifically Selected Facts" disclaimer should accompany every Dalmia article to illustrate that she ignores any fact that doesn't support her narrative.

[Tony]

In fairness Trump probably doesn't know Egypt is in Africa either.

[Deflator Mouse]

Egypt is African in the same sense that Russia is Asian.

And don't get me started on the claim that Kaepernick is "black".

[DiegoF]

My favorite part of that whole affair was at the beginning when that other NFL player said that he appreciated Kaepernick's solidarity, but with all due respect no matter how well-intentioned an ally he could never know what it is to go through life as a black man.

Unlike many people I actually knew his race from square one, but that didn't give me any less of a kick out of learning that he was in a black fraternity in college (matter of fact, made it quite a bit more funny). You can see the video online, of him doing a routine with them, stepping around like the big goofy white guy that he is. I forwarded it to all my friends, whom I'd also told about his race (what does it say about today's America that so many people did not take enough interest in his ethnicity to even note that detail?), and they too thought it hilarious.

[Deflator Mouse]

Back in 2008 I had Obama-supporting coworkers who acted like I was a Birther for suggesting that he was only half black.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Tony, its funny how you call Trump stupid, when he is a thousand times more intelligent than your dumb ass.

[Deflator Mouse]

Baby Doc made good money, so Haiti isn't a shithole. QED

[johnnywalleye]

re read it,the country is 1 that gets billions in aid

[DiegoF]

Doing markedly less well: the countries that get millions in aids.

Oh! Oh! No I did not!

[buybuydandavis]

"I don't see Haiti or any African nation on that list."

This is what happens when you have a loser of an argument. You have to get dishonest if you want to pretend that you're still in the game.

Notice also the lack of any citation or links. Just an image. So that you can't easily see what the rest of the data is, or even see if this image is actually from the guy listed.

Reason is such a shit show these days.

[WoodChipperBob]

Even if the data is valid, what this graphic is actually demonstrating is that, if INS cherry picks and only allows the highest educated Indians to immigrate, they'll make a lot more money than the average native-born US citizen. Consider (alert: made up numbers to follow), if we only let 1000 Indians into the country each year, and 950 of them are doctors and computer scientists, on average, they're going to earn a lot more than the average American.

[guy who doesn't care]

"Shikha Dalmia"

don't care

[loveconstitution1789]

I can't wait until that other poster comments again how Indian literally shit in the streets.

That really set Shikha off.

[Paloma]

So? In lots of white countries e.g. Argentina, they let DOGS shit in the street and there it stays. 100 years ago horses shit in the street, and people just walked around it.

[Sweets Swisherton]

And you think that's comparable to HUMANS shutting in the streets?

Lol.

[Deflator Mouse]

And they pilgrimage to the Rat Temple and take off their shoes to walk in the rat poop.

[Dr. Vaidya]

I visited my families village a few years ago as part of my familial responsibilities. The moment we ventured outside to the areas not curated for tourists, the poverty was undeniable.

I say this because I have done work in impoverished American and South American cities, and have seen nothing in America, and almost nothing in South America that compares.

I am no expert on the subject, of course, and my observations are anecdotal.

[Deflator Mouse]

The suffering of the poor in India is incomparable to the suffering of a root canal.

[Last of the Shitlords]

They also put cow shit in everything there.

[IceTrey]

Whites are 70% of the population so of course more of them are going to be poor bringing down the median. Indians are 1% of the population.

[Deflator Mouse]

There's also the fact that this is median HOUSEHOLD income. Indian (and in general Asian) immigrants are more likely to have multiple earners living in the same household, as fewer of the adults are single and multi-generation homes are more common than among whites.

If you changed the metric to "median income of adults 25-54", which is a more relevant metric, the advantage of Indian-Americans would go way down if not disappear.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Doubtful. Most Indians work in IT, male and female, they do alright, well above the median, individual or household.

On the flipside, all the Somalis I know drive taxis...

[Deflator Mouse]

101K is way above the average salary of IT workers.

[buybuydandavis]

Two wage earners?

[CE]

Not really.

[Cy]

"101K is way above the average salary of IT workers."

Maybe in rural Alabama!

[Deflator Mouse]

Also these ethnic groups are more likely to live in cities and suburbs, where the cost of living is much higher. A white family living in East Bumfuck, KS can live better on $61K than an Indian family in Fairfax County VA can on $110K.

[123 go]

"White"

Where can I find that on a map?

[IceTrey]

Norway.

[Paloma]

Finland

[Rich]

Hier.

[123 go]

I guess the takeaway is that Dalmia doesn't know what Excel does.

[Deflator Mouse]

Antarctica.

[Cy]

Anywhere there needs to be more social justice!

[loveconstitution1789]

Is she still at it?

Shikha sure does hold her adopted countrymen in high regard.

"All you fucking American retards read my articles where I explain how if you don't let in hordes of non-Americans, you're fucked"- Shikha Dalmia

[esteve7]

So where is this 'white' privilege that the leftists keep talking about. My prog roommate is absolutely race obsessed and absolutely everything in the world is evidence of 'white supremacy'

[Last of the Shitlords]

Assuming you're white, you should oblige him. Kick the shit out of him and make him call you 'master'. Back hand him if he give you any lip. Then make him remain silent unless you speak to him first.

Bottom line, if the dipshit progtard wants to see 'white privilige', then make it happen.

[vek]

They never had a valid argument, and never will. What there is is upper middle class privelege. There are more whites with that in America, but as a percentage more Asians than whites... And apparently all of the other immigrant groups in the article as well.

None of the lefts arguments hold water anyway. I do rather like to bring up facts like this to make their assholes twitch from time to time though.

[Deflator Mouse]

Dalmia is the gift of (presumably unintentional) hilarity that keeps on giving.

1. India wasn't one of the countries being discussed at the time of the alleged "shithole" comment. The "selected countries" list excludes those ethnicities that were (Salvadoran, Haitian, and African) precisely because they have lower incomes.

2. You're actually reinforcing the point that immigrants take away high-paying jobs from Americans, which is far more often used against Indian immigration than the argument that immigrants come from shitholes.

[mad.casual]

India wasn't one of the countries being discussed at the time of the alleged "shithole" comment.

Trump said, 'shithole' and she thought 'India'. Being both racist and having literally grown up in a shithole all I can say is, damn that's racist.

[damikesc]

Perhaps she has a problem with projection on a personal level. She heard "shithole" and assumed he said "Shikha"

[Last of the Shitlords]

Same thing really.

[WoodChipperBob]

I want to see the chart that shows the median income for Shithole-Country Americans. As you mentioned, Trump was reportedly talking about Salvadorans, Haitians, and folks from indeterminate African countries. So where on the list are Salvadoran Americans, Haitian Americans, Kenyan Americans, etc.?

[Paloma]

How do jobs,"high paying" or otherwise belong to anyone?

[Rich]

Don't they belong to the employer?

[Tony]

Of course, massa'.

[123 go]

I always wonder why you do this. It's obvious you have no reply so you dissemble.

Do you think it's not obvious? Or that you're making a point? Because comparing voluntary employment to slavery is kind of silly, and really, doesn't even follow the point.

[123 go]

More importantly, I wonder why you changed back to Tony from Paloma, you're clearly the same poster.

[Tony]

A job is a contractural relationship between two human beings. One often has more power in the arrangement. To say that he "owns" the job seems to imply that the person doing the job has no rights. Which, I understand that is a policy goal of libertarians.

[123 go]

"To say that he "owns" the job seems to imply that the person doing the job has no rights"

No it doesn't.

[Deflator Mouse]

A job is a contractural relationship between two human beings.

You got it wrong right there. The job is only the employee's part of the contract. When an employment contract ends or is revoked, it is the employee who says he lost his job, not the employer.

[One Hot Momma]

I'm a property owner. That doesn't mean you have no rights on my property. That doesn't even follow logically.

[Tony]

I agree. So why is it the project of libertarianism to minimize the rights of people who don't own property or who are employed by others?

[poptart]

Tony, your post doesn't even make sense. You agree that your original contention males no sense, then reiterate it.

[Deflator Mouse]

poptart: If this surprises you, you've never dealt with Tony before.

[Last of the Shitlords]

We should make a collection of Tony's comments on a Reason page called "Tony says the stupidest fucking things".

[vek]

d00d, they really should. I know some of the writers read comments, if anybody is reading this they really should give him a permanent page on the site! It would be such an epic event. The funny thing is it would probably become the most popular page on the website, on account of so many of the articles being ridiculous. LOL

[damikesc]

The same Progs who demand a higher minimum wage ALSO seem to support indentured servitude of illegals and people whose visa are contingent on their employer not firing them. Neither gives any power, AT ALL, to the employee.

[DesigNate]

You do realize that if an employer doesn't have a job that needs to be filled, you can't just walk up and demand that they employ you, right?

[Deflator Mouse]

Is this a trick question?

[Domestic Dissident]

Wasn't Trump talking about Haiti and countries in Africa? He definitely wasn't talking about Japan or India, so I don't know why Dipshit Scumbagetta keeps pretending that he was.

What a glorious Ehitey/hatin' weekend it has been though for Dipshit Scumbagetta and the fugazitards.

[Deflator Mouse]

I don't know why Dipshit Scumbagetta keeps pretending that he was.

Because whenever people are bashing Trump she feels a need to put down the curry and join in.

[fafalone]

Because Lord Cheeto said "shithole" countries, and what's more likely to come to mind than a country notorious for large portions of the population openly defecating in the streets.

[Tony]

Boy you guys sure spend a lot of time trying to make sure other people know you think that black people are inferior to white people.

[123 go]

Weird, I didn't see black people mentioned here at all.

[Tony]

It's kind of the subtext of every post defending Trump's atrocious comment.

[123 go]

"It's kind of the subtext"

So, all in your head.

[123 go]

It's probably time to switch back to your Paloma sock Tony.

[Tony]

I never use another handle. There are more than one person who disagrees with you in this world.

[Tony]

Sorry about the number disagreement in that sentence. I shouldn't have had that second mimosa.

[123 go]

"I never use another handle."

You also never lie...

[Tony]

I didn't say that. Lying is necessary for good manners.

Your ass looks fantastic in those pants!

[123 go]

Thanks Paloma.

[Sweets Swisherton]

In fairness Trump probably doesn't know Egyptians aren't black either.

[GILMORE?]

How many "shithole"-based articles do we have at this point?

4? 5?

for the love of god, stop.

[Garth Bigelow]

The media gets stuck on the last item until he does something else.

[GILMORE?]

Its almost an incentive for him to keep pumping out "outrage moments"

(which i would not be surprised if it were part of his media-strategy; i would also not be surprised if he just doesn't give a shit)

in any case, it sends everyone in the media chasing their own tail, recycling the same old denunciations... instead of actually focusing on "shit that's actually happening'", or leaving any breath to pump up the virtues of the democratic opposition.

I do wish Reason would skip the pile-on of these stupid non-events (e.g. Shitholegate) and instead hammered issues like warrantless surveillance, or justice reform, or whatever. Stay away from the twitter sewer-pipe which sucks everyone into a vortex of outrage.

[Len Bias]

It's amazing the extent to which Trump drives the narrative - he determines what all of this detractors talk about for an entire week.

Notice that the House just passed a bill expanding warrantless surveillance, and it got one mention that I've seen so far on the AM or PM links. It's almost like he's throwing people off the scent.

[Vernon Depner]

This is the only place where warrantless surveillance is controversial. Most Americans strongly support the national security state. Even the Black Lives Matter crowd is weirdly silent about it.

[Dick Puller, Attorney at Law]

If the American nation is only "an idea", why can't we just send a copy of that idea to shithole countries so they can build their own cities on the hill?

[Domestic Dissident]

I asked a question on the other thread and I'll ask it again here: how are countries like Haiti ever going to fix their problems and improve themselves if their intelligent and hard-working people all leave at their first opportunity?

Personally, I don't think the liberals can ever answer this question.

[fafalone]

Of course liberals have an answer: By us increasingly throwing taxpayer funded cash at them.
I mean yeah it doesn't work, and that money should be helping our people instead, but that's what their answer is.

[GILMORE?]

I got a different theory:

America isn't great because of race or its genetic legacy. Its great because we're the only people not to fuck up capitalism as badly as everyone else.

So instead of bragging about our awesome and saying how much more great we'd be by importing idiots, lets export capitalism and help them fix their own shit so they don't need to come here.

Problem solved.

[123 go]

Sounds stupid.

[GILMORE?]

I didn't realize i was going to touch a nerve.

[mad.casual]

So instead of bragging about our awesome and saying how much more great we'd be by importing idiots, lets export capitalism and help them fix their own shit so they don't need to come here.

Or (a little like the immigration/safety net debate) even just *start* on some other solution that isn't "Let's throw lots of cash at them."

[Cy]

Every other country in the world thinks of capitalism as the host for the leech that is socialism or communism. It's a necessary evil that governments and their workers can demonize all the while feeding off of it. Occasionally those idiots shoot the golden goose in their greed.

Some day... I hope we can get rid of the leeches. Sadly, I think capitalism is so good at producing wealth that it inadvertently creates the very leeches that want to destroy it.

[Phos]

I think USA is near the top ten countries for economic freedom, but even America has competition and room to improve. And there is variation among the states (I'm looking at you New York.)

[Deflator Mouse]

Jags puttin the hurt on the Kneelers.

[Dick Puller, Attorney at Law]

Shitholers of the World Are Making America Great

Actually, we were doing pretty great before most of the peoples on that list were even in the country in any significant numbers. It's not like the 1980's were that long ago.

What is it with these people who tell us they're "making America great", and then follow up by telling us how much money they make or how many Ph.D's they've earned? All that tells me is that they're doing pretty great for themselves, but how that's supposed to be beneficial to me or any other American is never made very clear.

If these are the people "making America great", how come they couldn't make their own shithole countries great? If we send them back to their shithole countries, can they make them great too? Why is it that they only seem to be able to make America great, a country that was doing pretty damn good for itself before their arrival?

[Phos]

As EconTalk host Russ Roberts likes to say (quote?), the best thing you can give a person in a poor country is luggage. Even low skilled workers are often 3-5 times more productive when they move to a more developed country. That is separate and apart from self or other selection skewing the representation in the population in the recipient country.

As to why they don't just fix their own country, there are often entrenched power interests both individual and group based (i.e. tribal) that work against things needed for development progress such as private property protections, rule of law, capital, infrastructure, and meritocracy.

Not everyone is an activist who wants to fight city hall.

[SIV]

As long as Shikha is playing identity politics I'll point out that immigrants from India, Pakistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Syria,Palestine and Egypt are all Caucasian, or as the US government likes to say "white". Most Filipino immigrants have crackers in the woodpile too.

[Dick Puller, Attorney at Law]

What's amusing is that India is a country so aware of the variance in capabilities of different groups that for thousands of years they separated them by means of a caste system. Even in this country, you can still see the remnants of it when you watch the interactions between Indians of different castes.

It might be interesting if Dalmia expanded on exactly which castes of Indians are over here making America great. Somehow, I suspect that's an article I'll never live to see.

[vek]

In some crazy googling I did years ago I stumbled across a thing online (Blog maybe? Or articlem can't remember.) that was talking about IQ tests that had been done based upon the class of people within a country, this being in countries with clearly defined classes. There have been tests done, but they've been essentially suppressed every time because the results were not what the egalitarians would like. In the UK they tested members of the actual nobility, and discovered average IQs somewhere in the 120s IIRC. In India the Brahman caste was in the 130s I think. In other words "Yes, these people in these positions are on average smarter than everybody else."

Of course the beauty of freedom is that the 130 IQ people born into the peasant class can rise as high as they can, and those of the noble class with 95 IQs can also fall. That's why equality of opportunity is everything, but not equality of outcomes. The left only focuses on outcomes...

But yeah, people never like to talk about inconvenient facts.

[Juice]

Someone doesn't know what Caucasian means.

[vek]

Broadly speaking all Indians, and most flavors of north African and middle eastern people are considered Caucasian. People usually think of "white people" as being the only ones, but that's not how it's broken down by phenotype. Bone structure wise and in other ways we're all more closely related than we are to East Asians or Africans.

[Craig Costa]

Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics. Why are "whites" grouped as a whole while other nationalities are separated? It's not to use statistical data to sell a narrative is it? Nah... that never happens.

[poptart]

Any second now GILMORE will be along to tell you that your observation is stupid because he doesn't understand it.

[GILMORE?]

No, his comment isn't stupid. That other guy's was.

[Fist of Etiquette]

It's the climate.

[Garth Bigelow]

No, it's just weather.

[Incomprehensible Bitching]

This just reinforces the meritocracy that is modern technology wage slavery!

We'll deal with those Indians once we achieve income equality! For Social Justice!

[Garth Bigelow]

"It was true when the Pilgrims came, it's true now, and it'll be true forever."

So in this statement, the immigrants are the Pilgrims. Does that make us the Native Americans?

[Longtorso, Johnny]

#MeToo
-- the girls of Rotherham

[GILMORE?]

Turns out a Daily Beast writer is a shameless plagiarist

I think its one of ENB's pals. Or at least i feel like i've heard her name cited here before.

[The_Hoser]

The Daily Beast has a code of ethics?

[Sugarsail]

Hate to say it Reason but this chart is classic and very ugly selective reporting bias by a writer biased by their own ethnocentrism. Notice how no one from Guatemala or Mexico or Haiti or anywhere from South America or Africa are even listed? It's not like we don't have any immigrants from those places, in fact, most of our immigrants are from those places. What's more is the list is artificially bloated with faux separate ethnicities like Taiwanese and Chinese, which are technically speaking the same country and same people. The same could be said for Palestinians and Syrians. And furthermore, there is a grossly disproportionate emphasis on East and Southeast Asian countries which notoriously value higher education and literacy much more than other cultures thus making them far more inclined to earn more money. Even more, many of the countries on the list aren't even shitholes. I've spent considerable time in Japan, Thailand, and Korea and none are shitholes. Don't get me wrong, most US immigrants are immigrants precisely because they live in a shithole, but we would hope that whatever value system that led to the creation of that shithole is left behind with them. Sadly, that's not always the case, but sometimes it is, and that's good. Regardless, an honest list here weighted by immigration % would show something far less flattering to immigrants.

[SQRLSY One]

Who do we love the most, and who do we need the most? The under-educated who will come here and pick our fruits and vegetables, sweating in the hot sun, keeping our food prices sensible, taking jobs that no spoiled native-born Americans will take? The under-educated who will wait tables and wipe our babies' asses? Or the overpaid doctors and lawyers who will "fence out" their competition, all day, every day, and make us pay out the ass for their services? See?
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/11.....tates.html
"Myths of the 1 Percent: What Puts People at the Top
Dispelling misconceptions about what's driving income inequality in the U.S."
I had an ethnic-white doctor who'd renew my prescriptions for a whole year, never seeing me in the interim. Sad to say, health problems made him retire. Now I have an ethnic Indian doctor, and he makes me see him twice a year, to renew the most silly, routine prescriptions! Even a liberal-oriented rag like the NY Times sees the root of the troubles here? State-sanctioned abuse by the rich, of those who have less degrees and credentials! Let in more Indian dentists, and they will hoot and holler, till our politicians allow them to make us get a prescription before we can buy a toothbrush! "Rich" does not equate "beneficial to our society"!

[SQRLSY One]

In case the above is "TL;DR", then here it is, again, short and sweet:

Who is more likely to abuse me as an American consumer, via the powers of degrees-credentials - and -licenses... For instance, making me get a doctor's prescription before I can scratch my own butt-hole... Over-paid doctors from India, or vegetable-pickers from Mexico?

So I say, more Mexicans, and less Indians, please!!!

[JoeBlow123]

This is an odd stance. So you don't like the fact you have to go see a doctor TWICE a year to get drugs? Maybe takes you all of two hours the entire year? And you get to see a doctor who may help you, give help, notice something about something else?

First time I have seen someone unhappy with seeing a doctor.

[SQRLSY One]

The doctor charges me MONEY and takes up my TIME, to act as troll-under-the-bridge, rent-seeker, for allowing me "access" to drugs, that, in a free society, I should be able to freely buy, w/o begging for, and paying for, permission. I understand arguments around why maybe addictive drugs should have a gate-keeper. My high blood pressure pills that I have taken for years and years? WTF? My body, right?

Now that we have the Internet and Google to tell us all about side effects and drug interactions... Which the doctors often fail to do, they often prescribe two drugs together that should NOT go together... The internet has made their rent-seeking even more useless!

[Vernon Depner]

Most of what primary care physicians do could be replaced by an app. The profession exists strictly because of regulatory capture.

[I am the 0.000000013%]

Exactly.

Add telemedicine with a world wide physician base and 90% of the remaining cases could be covered at a minimal, ever decreasing cost.

Medical care is costly because every path to commoditization is systematically cut off.

[I am the 0.000000013%]

Add me to that list. Seeing the doctor when I don't need to see a doctor is a waste of my time and money. I'm adult enough to determine whether I want to drink myself to death. I'm also adult enough to know whether I want to hurt myself by taking a prescription drug incorrectly.

[action physical man]

Keep patting yourself on the back Shikha.

[Fist of Etiquette]

So the thrust of the argument here is not that India is not a shithole, but instead that the Indians who immigrate to the United States add value as above average wage earners. However, all I see are people TAKING OUR JOBS.

[SQRLSY One]

How many native-born Americans are willing to pick fruits and vegetables under the hot sun? Just about zero! They make take the job for a day or two, but very few last more than a day or two, at these jobs...

H-1B immigrants, though, are a different story... They serve as "indentured servants" at high-tech companies, since they cannot just pick up and move to a different company (employer) in the USA. Higher-paid H-1B immigrants are a problem, because high-tech companies will lay off native-born Americans, and then blacklist them from future employment, and then go and whine and cry to Congress, that they just can NOT find qualified native-born Americans! This is a clear abuse of the intent of Congress, in Congress passing H-1B enabling laws.

So yes, they do unfairly steal our higher-paying jobs, at times... Due to abusive high-tech companies like the fictional "HardLips PeckHard" company, for example, in my fiction-generating, malfunctioning mind, uh-hunh...

Well anyway, yes and no! Higher-paid immigrants do "steal our jobs" unfairly, at times. Lower-paid ones do not, when us natives won't even take those jobs in the first place. And yes, we are spoiled by welfare-type policies... I won't debate that one with you!

[JoeBlow123]

How exactly do you intuitively know immigrants steal high paying jobs but not low paying jobs? Just because?

[SQRLSY One]

I have repeatedly read (newspapers and magazines) of American farmers making HUGE efforts to find fruit-and-veggies pickers, who were born here, to work these jobs. Native-born workers, with nearly ZERO exceptions, do not last for more than 2-3 days, at these jobs!

[vek]

That's not true. The only reason Americans won't do shitty jobs like pick fruit is because the wages are artificially supressed by a flood of labor willing to work for minimum wage or below. If we have zero illegal Mexicans we would have probably:

1. Automated faster. I read an article about how farms in the Northeast are far more automated because there isn't cheap Mexican labor like in the West.

2. Wages would be higher.

Americans do plenty of jobs worse than picking fruit... But only those that pay well. Also most of the jobs Mexicans do are not picking fruit. They wash dishes, clean houses, construction etc. All of which were mostly done by low education whites/blacks/etc historically, until Mexican came in and flooded them out of the market. Even still the vast majority of people in those jobs are NON immigrants.

So that whole line of "Americans won't do it" is simply wrong.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Let's not forget that our fruit is less expensive because of cheap labor. There are trade offs.

[vek]

Yes, fruit is cheaper... But at what cost? All the native born idiots on welfare, net negative tax payers working at near slave wages, the cost of our culture literally being torn apart in places like California, all of the political turmoil... I could go on. I think the lowering of costs is overstated a lot too. As I said automation in the NE kept them all in business competing with western grown crops somehow...

Any which way, to me shaving a few bucks off of my grocery bill is NOT worth the mess it has caused. Whenever you mention the government managing immigration, people always say "But they won't manage it right" which is true. But the thing is when you have such a clear and obvious problem, a vast over supply of low education workers in a 21st century post industrial economy, the general direction your policy should take is pretty clear... Don't import even more low education workers!

I don't think managing immigration will ever be perfect, but I'd rather have a shortage of unskilled labor than a huge dearth given that we live in a welfare state. That in fact at least improves the lives of the working poor without a massive bureaucracy and lets them feel in control of their own lives, instead of making them obvious wards of the state.

[Dick Puller, Attorney at Law]

Labor is usually only about 10% of the cost of produce. Most of the cost is for storage and transportation. The farmer himself usually only sees about 33% the retail cost. Even if the cost of the labor were to double or triple, the cost to the consumer would be negligible.

[vek]

I don't know for positive about the labor being 10%, but it's plausible. I have seen figures of around 25-35% actually going to the farmer in the past so, so that math seems about right.

It would surely not be a huge increase like people make it out to be. But even if it were, would it not be worth it given all the other problems it makes? I know for me personally it would. My home town in California wouldn't be like living in a foreign country like it is for one!

Any which way automation is moving along in agriculture in a big way the last few years, and so even the dirt cheap Mexican labor will be useless in that sector soon... So once the "But who will pick the fruit?!" argument is gone, can we perhaps dispense with the notion that importing uneducated foreign workers is beneficial to an economy with an excess of low education workers??? I hope so.

[Vernon Depner]

Another factor that discourages American citizens from taking jobs that migrants do is that the migrants are much more willing to work "off the books". When you're paid above-board, with taxes and other deductions taken out by an employer who complies with regulations, you end up getting a lot less money than someone who gets full market rate for the job paid under the table.

[Cy]

Also, illegal aliens are far less likely to report crimes against them, including rape, physical abuse, lack of breaks, living conditions.... etc.

They take far lower wages. They don't report crimes against them. They don't cost extra for SS, Medicare, Medicaid, local and state taxes.

The "American's won't do those jobs" narrative is the biggest crock of shit ever.

[Number 2]

So....Trump describes Haiti, El Salvador and countries of sub-Sahara Africa as "shitholes." Dalmia refutes him by showing that immigrants from countries other than Haiti, El Salvador and sub-Sahara Africa are successful. Hmmm...I think I am on the verge of discerning the logical flaw here...

[Cy]

Proggies gotta prog!

[obijuan]

How do they vote?

[vek]

All of them to the left! White native born Americans are the only group that votes center right. Period. Every other group is strongly leftist. Cubans are literally the only group I know of that breaks that rule, and for obvious reasons.

[Cy]

But they're all victims of the White man! #metoo

[vek]

Yup. Despite them all, without a single exception, having far better lives and freedom than they would in whatever their ancestral home land is... It must REALLY be tough to be treated so horribly :/

Honestly the horrible voting patterns are my number one reason I want to limit even legal immigration. I have a feeling successful, high education, immigrant groups like Asians and Indians could be brought around if given time to assimilate... But it'll never happen if it's a perpetual flood of new people. If we let in 500K doctors and engineers every year eventually we could absorb and convince them, but in this environment never gonna happen.

[Ken Shultz]

The suggestion that immigrants are good for this country relative to their salaries is terribly misguided.

The greatest benefits to American society from immigrants comes in the form of cheap labor. There's something elitist about valuing immigrant groups based on their average salaries.

In fact, . . .

One of the biggest mistakes India made was buying into Soviet style elitism back during the Cold War. Where China decided to teach every peasant child how to read, write, and do basic math, India invested their resources in educating the elite--especially in STEM fields. That was common thinking back then, that the way nations prosper is by educating their elite to lead the way.

Meanwhile, India still has a serious problem with illiteracy, and the first thing their highly educated technical elite do as soon as they leave university is take a job in the United States--which doesn't speak much for India's highly educated class leading the way.

Meanwhile, when China was suffering worker shortages due to the one-child policy, manufacturers found that they couldn't simply expand into India for more workers. Where the children of China's peasant farmers could step right into a factory job, the peasants of India can neither read nor write nor do math, and that's no good for factory work.

[vek]

They were also generally socialistic across the board. Government controlled industries etc. They only reformed in the 90s, long after China. They will close the gap in the future, or at least narrow it. China does have a far higher average IQ score, so if one puts weight in those things India may never fully catch up, but should be able to do far better now that they're less socialist.

[Ken Shultz]

India's peasants should be furious that their futures were sold short to educate India's elite--so they could go to America and get rich. That statistic regarding average pay isn't a testament to open immigration. It's a testament to the ugliness and stupidity of elitism.

Meanwhile, our economy benefits the most from all the cheap labor that comes across our border from the south. It's much like in China. Because wages there are low doesn't mean that China's cheap labor make a relatively unimportant contribution to China's economy. In fact, China's economy has grown so rapidly specifically because of the cheap labor--not because of its highly educated elite. Pointing to elite salaries isn't evidence that any particular immigrant group is making a spectacular contribution to American society. If you want to see something economically impressive, look how cheap childcare is when you buy it from an unskilled immigrant.

. . . just like China's economy isn't about how much its elite are paid. It's about low prices at Wal*mart.

[SQRLSY One]

Amen, Dude, I like your comments! See mine a few steps above... I am NOT abused by affordable wipers of babies' butts, or pickers of vegetables, but I AM abused by rent-seeking trolls under the bridge, which DOES include Indian doctors, who are going to add to the voices of American doctors, all clamoring for more-more-more!!! More-more-more degrees and credentials and licenses, to the point where I have to ask a doctor's permission (prescription) before I buy some "medically necessary" food or water!

[vek]

Is she really so dumb that she doesn't see how she is undercutting her own "We should let ANYBODY in" argument?

I mean Jesus tap dancing Christ. It is so obvious. That list is comprised almost entirely of countries where people move here via the normal immigration process. Syria is the only one where we've taken refugees from at all, and I bet that's only because the pre refugee crisis Syrians are still outweighing them in numbers. Also note that the Asian immigrant groups that have been here longer, AKA have had time to become more normal populations, not just first gen exceptional people, are lower. Like Japanese and Chinese.

But yes, when you only let in high valued immigrants... You have economically successful immigrants! Who would have thought???

And frankly that's all anybody has been asking for. Even a lot of the alt-right crowd would settle for only letting in high IQ (or the proxy being education) foreigners, which would probably greatly reduce the numbers because shithole countries just don't have that many PHDs.

[vek]

As far as her "see brown people are better" argument she is also subtly trying to make here, I bet if you looked at Norwegian, German, Swiss, French etc immigrants that moved here legally in the last 20 years or so their income would be towards the top of the list, if not at the very top.

If I had 100% control over who immigrated here I could put Somalia at the top of that list in 10 or 20 years by only accepting PHDs, but everybody knows the average Somali swept out of their huts in their home country is NOT going to pull 6 figures.

How can somebody be so divorced from reality that she is using evidence which perfectly undercuts her own argument to try to defend it????

[XM]

Wait, when did Trump ever call Korea or Japan shitholes? Aside from Iran and Lebanon, almost all of these countries are from the "non shithole" column.

But this isn't anything new, we've all known that some cultures find more success in America compared to others. The wretched immigration restrictionists might argue that we should increase immigration from Japan and less from Mexico, whose people aren't on this list. I guess they belong in the separate "cheap and manual MAGA" list.

Given that most people in Shikha's list are probably in the field of tech, medicine and law, why not use merit based system to bring qualified candidates in, and filter out poorer immigrants that drag down the median? Canada does this VERY thing, and their nation has foreign hands working on fields without any of our immigration gray area.

And let's not be naive, not all people on this list were rags to riches stories. Some their parents came here with money, utilized existing connections in the states (or even from home), and otherwise relied on community network to move up in the social ladder. This is fairly common in the Asian community. They can't be compared to Haitians or poorer Mexicans who are trying to work from scratch.

[vek]

Almost all the immigrants int he above group came from the middle or upper classes in their homelands. Indians that is 100% true. I've talked to many of them and they talk about driving their Mercedes around in India and shit... Their parents were NOT peasant farmers.

[Lucius Fergeson]

Reason: where the editors and writers act like snowflakes over three day old news and proceed to call anyone else snowflakes when they over react to something else and we fail to see the hypocrisy in that

[Deflator Mouse]

Here's a nifty table put together by American Enterprise Institute's Mark Perry, a University of Michigan economics professor who runs the super smart blog Carpe Diem.

He's certainly not showing super-smartness with this table that shows the exact opposite of what you're trying to show.

[Brandybuck]

Carpe Diem is one of the smartest econ blogs out there. Maybe you just need to understand the graph before dissing it.

[Azathoth!!]

The countries Trump referred to as 'shitholes' aren't on the graph, genius.

[WoodChipperBob]

I looked for the chart on the Carpe Diem blog. He wrote about it in March 2016. I'm absolutely certain that *Perry* didn't intend to use this to prove folks from shithole countries are outperforming the native born.

[JeremyR]

Er, isn't that pretty much proving Trump right? That list is almost entirely Asian

[Quo Usque Tandem]

A conspicuous lack of purportedly shithole countries on that there list.

[I can't even]

Big surprise - you skim the top .01% off the top of a population of a billion, you get smart people.

Anyone who thinks all Indians are brilliant should go there for a visit - or read a bunch of Shikha articles - you will quickly be dissuaded.

[Cy]

But she's brown and has a vagina so....

[Ch?d Whipper]

I notice that they use household income, I think Thomas Sowell is the one that always says if somebody uses household income for comparisons, they are generally up to no good. Most of the Indians I know are highly educated and hard workers, but they also seem to stay married at a much higher rate as well, thus fewer households in the denominator which skews the income numbers up a bit.

[BruceMajors]

These are all Asians. Trump actually said we need a meritocratic system that would let in more Asians.

[Harvard]

This article is proof positive that Gillespie is Editor In Chief here at Reason. Reason #641 why the Libertarian Party is not taken seriously by the majority of voters.

[Rufus The Monocled]

Thanks for making Trump's point Dalmia.

Canadian immigration policy in a nutshell: Quietly and politely make sure immigrants come with cash and skills.

[WoodChipperBob]

You forgot part 2 of Canada's immigration policy: let in enough refugees to make yourself look good, but not enough that they overwhelm the ability to assimilate them.

[Rufus The Monocled]

'Tis true.

[J. Allen II]

This doubles as an excellent retort to claims of white privilege. Thanks!

[hattiegilbert445]

like Timothy answered I am amazed that someone able to make $7869 in four weeks on the
computer . find out here?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Be an immigrant from India?

[I am the 0.000000013%]

Definitely. Not one of those other shithole countries.

[damikesc]

I'd argue that Dalmia is too emotionally involved to make anything she writes on this topic of any remote worth.

[Brandybuck]

So ran across a rant by a progressive this weekend. Basically screaming that we shouldn't be pointing out the success stories of those who come from shithole countries, because some people who come from shithole countries don't succeed. We should love and honor them even if they are poor.

Sigh.

Just the act of getting out of their shithole country made them better off. They may be poor, but they're not destitute.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Doesn't that chart feed into "they're taking our jerbs" mentality?

[Number 2]

One last point. It is not immediately obvious that one's high household income level automatically equates to one being a net contributor to society, or that one is helping to make the country "great."

Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, Ivan Boesky and Bernie Madoff, to name a few, had extremely high household incomes. Did they help make America great?

[Rufus The Monocled]

Well, the first two made for great TV programs, documentaries and films!

[Vernon Depner]

Successful immigrants in professional occupations are found mostly in fields that are heavily subsidized and protected by government. A useless "doctor" or bureaucrat costs us a lot more than an immigrant on public assistance.

[CE]

No, because they dodged their taxes.

[Paper Wasp]

Yeah, that's the problem I had with the table, too. Without knowing that the sources of income are legit, it doesn't really show that these people aren't just bringing their native shithole with them.

For instance, let's be real: most of the people who've been busted for running scams where they pay a percentage on the dollar for the food stamps/EBT funds of food stamp recipients are Asian. If some Asian immigrant is making $60K a year laundering benefit checks for the allegedly "needy," they've basically moved the shithole to our shores. If the Syrian immigrant is making a comfortable living running a car-theft ring and peddling stolen iPhones on eBay, it doesn't matter how industrious they are at it, they're still harming people.

[timbo]

Why dies this upset people so?
Haiti, El Salvador, and most of Africa are shitholes, correct?

Third world countries are shitholes, comparatively. That is why they want to come here. Let them in.

If only we could get americans living in our internal shithole slums to want to work and be productive, they could compete for the jobs that the shitholers will take. Competition would drive down wages and more people would be employed.
Simple economics.
Every time I drive through our slums, I did not see a lot of ambitious teens looking for work.

[cjgeek]

This chart represents exactly what Trump is arguing, he want's immigrants that are going to contribute to America. We have 40M Americans in poverty, 600K are homeless, we're $20T in debt and we spend $268B/yearly in immigrant social services. When we are unable to solve our existing poverty or homeless problems, we do not need to bring in more immigrants that will add to our existing problems. We need to end chain migration, the visa lottery and implement a merit based immigration system.

[Ecoli]

Dalmia, why you so racissss?

[JWC]

Well, this answers one question: what exactly does it take to trigger the snowflakes of Reason.com. Leave it to Trump to find that sweet spot.

[Brightly]

Were these among the nations Trump was talking about? If they were, I don't think they were many so the entire premise of this article is just irrelevant.

[Michael Cook]

Trump didn't actually say "sh---hole" and we have the word of two U.S. Senators and Trump himself against the word of Sen. Durbin on that. The media take for granted that the word of one Democrat equals the word of three Republicans, so they amplify this narrative a thousand fold and create another propaganda marvel.

The winning agit-prop of 2016 was the Clinton campaign ordering up the Christopher Steele dossier. As fantastic a bit of slur-creativity as that was, the media and a certain cadre within the FBI and Obama administration fell in love with it. Undoubtedly this trash helped in securing a FISA warrant, which the Deep State employed to the max. Never against the Democrats and all the secrets they may wish to hide about foreign contacts and quid pro quos, of course.

I am becoming so paranoid (actually, a totally realistic appreciation of the depths to which the Resistance will go) that I suspect the Hawaii false alarm was a deliberate act by rabidly Democrat left wingers precisely in order to generate talking points like I just heard on the PBS nightly news in which the cultured PBS voice informed us that Trump was to blame for all this by talking rudely to Kim Jong Un.

The Hawaii alert was entirely a state government product. The federal government did nothing whatsoever to cause it. The 38-minute delay in rescinding the baseless "mistake" was also the state government of Hawaii doing its best to do its worst.

[Michael Cook]

Having seen the drop-down menu that totally confused the emergency control room operator, I concede the mistake was probably a genuine mistake. The tardy cancellation of the alert, however, was sheer bureaucratic ineptitude. This kind of thing seems related to the recent incident in my own neck of the woods in which an Amtrak engineer on the inaugural run of a high speed passenger train between Tacoma and Portland somehow failed to notice that the train was going 80 mph while approaching the single 40 mph curve on the whole route!

Several people died because of this stupidity.

In a world of high tech environments, reading a drop-down menu or paying attention to where you are when driving a train aren't impossible tasks to train people to do competently. Government, however, seems frighteningly incapable of being up to the task.

[Shoreline1]

I've always liked shitholes. It's shitheads I have a problem with. This stuff is way over Trump's head. A review of his academic and financial record indicates that he treats everything like a multiple-choice question, and guesses. Just the kind of leader America needs, huh?

[ArticulusMaximus]

The author presenting that pictured list is a strawman argument. That chart tracks legal immigration. Illegal aliens, the problem being dealt with, usually do not interview with government representatives taking census (yes I have direct experience in that). Only one of those countries (Egypt) was technically one of the three allegedly mentioned in Trumps alleged comment, which as it turned out wasn't directed so much at those three but more collectively at the types of Third World countries that are generally represented by those three. And the particular part of the discussion in question was centered around for what groups to grant amnesty and or open up more legal immigration, i.e., NOT represented in the statistics the author tries to pass off as germane. The President wants to NOT develop immigration policy by race or group or country, but rather by individual merit and their potential benefit to the American nation. That is exactly how legal immigration has been controlled in the past and is being handled by most other sovereign nations.

[madameevil]

I see the income is listed per household.Many of those ethnic groups listed have multiple family members living in the same home,presumably most or all of them working,which would tend to drive the stated income to a higher level.I also wonder what is included in the designation "white" I would venture,though I have not yet researched it that newly arrived Russian immigrants,who would be considered :white" would have a lower household income than second or third generation European immigrant households.

[E. Kline]

For chissakes, can anyone adequately explain to me why this stupid twat is writing for Reason of all publications?

[BeckyA]

Now Shitha, I know that India leads the world in public defecation, and that Indian immigrants have been causing civilized people the world over to cringe as they scrape their shitty asses with their fingernails then use those same hands to contaminate door knobs and other surfaces with foul diseases, and many other disgusting habits, but when US citizens held those jobs they earned more than you shitholers. When US citizens were programmers they actually programmed, they didn't merely enter pre-written (by others) code to modify existing programs. Prior to being infested with Indian parasites Bell Labs had invented for over 100 years, but once the Bangalore disease infested tr place Bell was bankrupted and looted. There are hundreds of companies Indian Chinese Pakistani and other parasites bankrupted and destroyed. But continue to tell yourself that you are somehow superior, it doesn't change the fact you are the taxpayer subsidized idiots used by criminals to cheat others. When they are done with you, you will go back to being slumdogs

[Mark22]

Here's a nifty table put together by American Enterprise Institute's Mark Perry, a University of Michigan economics professor who runs the super smart blog Carpe Diem. It makes an illuminating companion to my post on Indian shitholers. Let that sink in before you talk smack again, Mr. President!

Anybody with half a brain understands, of course, that Indian Americans have high incomes because immigration selects for highly skilled and intelligent Indians(*), while Mexican Americans have low incomes because immigration selects for low skill migrants.

And as an immigrant myself, I can say unapologetically that the country I came from is a "shithole" filled with people who made it a "shithole": that's why I left. To any immigrant who came to the US who thinks that their country of origin is not a shithole I say this: why did you leave it? And why don't you go back?

(*) Shikha's own mediocre intellect actually illustrates this: she came over with her husband at the time.

[SQRLSY One]

Well, when an ethnic-Indian doctor uses "political pull" as a special interest-group member... See my comments above... That is not a crime! It is not a crime to get the FDA (assisted by Congressional power pigs) to pass regulations that requires me to get a doctor's approval before I can blow my nose! Just because it is not a crime, does NOT mean that I have not been abused!

Anyway, more poor and under-educated but hard-working immigrants, please, and less abusive high-paid manipulators of degrees-credentials - and -licenses, please!