Mass Shooting at a Texas Church

More than 20 (and shooter) reportedly dead.

More than 20 people have been reported dead and more have been reported wounded at a mass shooting inside the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas.

Details are still unclear. The shooter has been reportedly killed as well.

From the San Antonio Express-News:

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt told The Wilson County News that the shooter has been killed.

Another local official who wished to remain anonymous said there are at least 25 dead and 15 wounded. Eight of the wounded were transported to Brooke Army Medical Center and and seven others to area hospitals.

UPDATE: Here's the latest on the death count:

BREAKING: Texas public safety officer: 23 found dead in church, 2 outside, one transported and died later; ages of victims 5 to 72

— The Associated Press (@AP) November 5, 2017

UPDATE II: The alleged shooter has been identified:

CBS News reports Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, is the suspect behind the mass shooting at the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, Texas

— David Begnaud (@DavidBegnaud) November 5, 2017

President Donald Trump responded with a tweet while he's in Japan:

May God be w/ the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. The FBI & law enforcement are on the scene. I am monitoring the situation from Japan.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 5, 2017

Comments

[Rich]

Details are still unclear. The shooter has been reportedly killed as well.

Well, we can examine his brain or clues. 8-(

[Rich]

*for*

[Bra Ket]

Or his picture. Big suspicious beard he's got there..

[Half-Virtue, Half-Vice]

Sad, depressing, evil Sunday. I'ma go whiskey blackout... try to forget that this world blows.

[Jerryskids]

A People of Pallor church so this appears to be either Trump or the Amish behind it.

[Ecoli]

"People of Pallor". That's very good!

[Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot]

I'm praying to Jesus this is ISIS.

[Incomprehensible Bitching]

I think he heard someone say that violence in service of the revolution is totes awesome, and ran with it.

The nerve!

[Marty Feldman's Eyes]

???

[Palin's Buttplug]

I'm praying to Jesus this is ISIS.

He is mocking a typical Bratfart reader.

[MarkLastname]

Something tells me no one reads breitbart as religiously as you do.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Wingnut.com is reporting he was a Baptist Bible studies teacher who recently converted to Islam.

[Robert]

I'm praying to Isis that it was Jesus.

[ernieyeball]

"May God be w/ the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. Trump"
Now Dump is giving God advise.
This was in a Baptist Church on a Sunday morning in Texas.
God was already there watching all this happen and not doing a thing about it.

[Brother Kyfho]

Fuck you.

[ernieyeball]

Are you saying God wasn't there?

[XM]

It's a shitty thing to say after a tragedy. I wouldn't make faith an issue if Muslims were shot to death at a mosque, even though I don't believe in Allah.

[ernieyeball]

I think this is a shity thing to say too per Shante Michelle:

"...no matter how many people die because of freedoms like the 2nd, it will never be as many as those who died because they didn't have freedoms like the 2nd."

There are all kinds of shitty things said on Reason threads.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

If you want to say that assertion is incorrect, then say that. Don't ascribe malevolence to your opponents by using the word "shitty".

Also, Whataboutism.

[Bra Ket]

That is a statement about principle. Yours was obvious trolling.

[Marty Feldman's Eyes]

I read it more as a critique of the vapidity of the usual cliches people say after a tragedy. Can't speak for the poster, but I don't even think it's necessarily attacking people of faith- after all, pastors in pulpits across the nation will be examining the same issue in their sermons this week. Some sort of variation on "why does god let bad things happen" and "where is god".

But since Christianity has a long tradition of never letting a tragedy go to waste, I say turnabout is fair play.

After all, what's really more offensive, god letting this happen or simply pointing out that god let this happen?

It would be a shitty thing to say directly to someone involved. But it's an internet comment on a general discussion about a news item. Not sure what Muslims and Allah have to do with it, that was a weird non-sequitur.

[Bra Ket]

How do you fail to follow an analogy that replaces one religion for another?

[loveconstitution1789]

There is no God.

So, no "He" wasn't there.

[ernieyeball]

But didn't God, Guns and Guts make America great?

[loveconstitution1789]

Says who?

God, guns, and guts probably led to some good times in American history.

[Chipper Morning Truthjammer]

God has no gender.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

You're an atheist?

[BestUsedCarSales]

Glad to see someone else was surprised by that.

[Incomprehensible Bitching]

Maybe it's just me, but I think he said "Fuck you."

[Vernon Depner]

God has made it clear that he has little interest in our internal affairs and leaves us to run this world as we please.

[ernieyeball]

So YOU know what God is thinking?

[C. S. P. Schofield]

It's in the damned Bible. Which, if you believe, is His Word.

I'm an agnostic, but to the extent I believe in a Creator, I believe that this world is of little moment. We are here to learn, and some of the lessons are harsh.

But that's me.

[ernieyeball]

Damned Bible was written by human beings. Human beings make mistakes.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

And apparently non-humans as well as you so aptly demonstrate.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Sounds like a great defense of the 2nd.

[Chipper Morning Truthjammer]

There are no answers. Only lessons.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

You came here to throw the bible in the face of a bunch of nonbelievers? Ok. Thanks for the useless bromide.

[Rich]

"Enough is enough," Sen. Richard Blumenthal (Conn.) said in a series of tweets. "Now is the time for commonsense gun violence prevention steps."

"Enough is enough. Now is the time for commonsense Twitter prevention steps."

[Hunthjof]

I always ask what "common sense" gun control would have stopped this? Now we know nothing of the suspect yet but this is how the conversation usually goes.

"Comprehensive back ground checks" After Pulse I told them the shooter not only passed that check but was licensed, finger printed and photographed. as well he was required to undergo classroom and range training and was required to re certify every two years. In fact most mass shooters would pass federal background checks.

Then they say.

"Mandatory waiting periods" I then again point to almost every mass shooting how the suspect acquired their weapons weeks if not months in advance if not years.

Then it is

"Ban on high capacity CLIPS" Now I ignore their misuse and just ask "At what point does a mass shooting become acceptable to you. 3 4 10 where is the acceptable body count?

After the sputtering you get

"Ban on assualt weapons" First I tell them many mass shootings are done with hand guns and then I repeat my previous question "at what point does a mass shooting become acceptable.

Again more sputtering and then it is "You evil Nazi" then off they go sputtering. Every so often though I get honest people who want total bans on all civilian firearm ownership. Which of course is their goal. they wish to make gun ownership so expensive and difficult as to ban it without banning it.

[Eric]

The time for common sense gun control was over 200 years ago. Now the only responsible thing seems to be to arm up like every other asshole in this country.

[loveconstitution1789]

There is no such thing as "common sense gun control" because not having guns is not common sense. Its stupid.

[Deven]

Dude was dishonorably discharged. Counts as a felony. Did not own gun legally.

[crufus]

He received a bad conduct discharge, not a dishonorable discharge.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/.....index.html
"...Kelley received a bad conduct discharge..."

[Morbo]

The reporting I saw was DD, for abusing his wife and child.

Either way, the last part is the most significant, because under the Lautenberg Amendment, any conviction for domestic violence, even a misdemeanor, makes possession of a firearm illegal.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

*commonsense truck subsidies

[ALWAYS RIGHT]

We never have "enough is enough" gun violence by cops.

[Mitsima]

Really, can you ever have too much of a good thing?

[Shante Michelle]

Getting out ahead of the gun grabbers - no matter how many people die because of freedoms like the 2nd, it will never be as many as those who died because they didn't have freedoms like the 2nd.

[Scarecrow Repair & Chippering]

One of my pet fantasies is that every law would have to include a list of expected consequences which must be met annually or the law is voided, all convictions reversed, and the authors and supporters banned from all government employment of any kind, including consulting or contracting or working for a consulting or contracting company, retroactively to the day the bill became law.

* If some consequences are not met, or

* there are unexpected consequences, or

* the listed consequences are unfalsifiable or unmeasurable

I'm not completely heartless. Consequences which fall below some amount in the aggregate do not count; say $1M. The sugar tariff, for example, would have to specify that a few thousand sugar cronies get rich by $100M total, and all other Americans lose $200M total. (I just made up those numbers.). Maybe it would also need to mention that another 100 government employees need to be hired at $100K each, because that's $10M. But if it were only, say, another 10 hours work, at $50/hour, for 100 employees, that's only $50K, and so would not need to be mentioned.

I like that it would void a lot of laws, but the primary purpose is to make legislation more transparent. The fear of losing their cozy government jobs would make them appropriately careful with not just their bills, but what they vote for.

[Hunthjof]

I like that.

[Rich]

the authors and supporters banned from all government employment of any kind

"Do I feel lucky?"

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I'd settle for a sunset period of 10 years (or less) on all laws.

[Robert]

Can you imagine the showdowns when one political party threatens to allow murder to become legal if they don't get concessions on some other legisl'n? Can you imagine when many voters stand behind the brinksmanship? And when the deadline's lapsed & murder's already been legal for a few days, both sides stand firm? & then some constituents carry out high profile demonstration murders to prove they mean biz?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Yeah...right.

The politician that'll allow murder to be legal...

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Just murdering those on the right. I mean, they probably did something wrong anyway. Payment for past services rendered.

[mtrueman]

'I like that it would void a lot of laws, but the primary purpose is to make legislation more transparent. "

Not to mention adding another layer or three to our beloved bureaucracies.

[Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot]

I don't get it. People would have died if there wasn't a 2nd amendment?

[Red Tony]

Ask the Jews in Poland, France, and Austria circa 1940.

Ask the kulaks in Russia circa 1925.

Ask the refugees escaping from Cuba on rafts.

Ask ONE-THIRD of the ENTIRE Cambodian population just before 1980.

[Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot]

Your saying that if people in those countries had hunting rifles there would have been a different outcome? I hate to break it to you, but in each of those instances (I don't know why Cuba was lumped into this group) people with guns did shoot at the authorities, did shoot at the police, did form resistance groups. And in each of those instances they lost convincely. Local populations armed with pistols have a terrible record of confronting militaries equipped with tanks, mortars, airplanes, and nuclear missiles. Sorry.

[Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot]

*You're* saying

[Hunthjof]

The majority of those regimes didn't use tanks, airplanes mortars etc to do the oppression and killing. Why cause those are loud make noise and get the ire of the international community. They killed most of the civilian population by driving into villages with trucks and quietly herding the disarmed populace away with small arms where they were later killed.

[68W58]

You're a fucking pathetic liar. In Yugoslavia the partisans played hell with the Nazis and they never did quite subdue the place. The Hmong made your Vietcong buddies pay dearly for the uplands in Vietnam. I get that you know the sum total of "fuck" and "all" about economics, are you trying to demonstrate your third rate knowledge of history as well?

[mtrueman]

"The Hmong made your Vietcong buddies pay dearly for the uplands in Vietnam. "

Made? I wasn't aware that they ever stopped resisting the communists.

[68W58]

True enough.

[Red Tony]

See, what you just did was inadvertently argue that we should have LESS gun control so that people can fight back against their oppressive government. Would hunting rifles have stopped the massacres? Maybe not, but they would've made the attackers a tiny bit less willing to attack them. Would this have saved lives? Almost certainly. And if these people had tanks, mortars, anti-aircraft guns? Then yes, maybe Pol Pot never comes to power, maybe the Soviets can't starve as much of the Russian population to death, maybe Castro doesn't buttfuck the Cuban people, maybe Hitler doesn't get out of Germany?hell, maybe he doesn't even get to enact the death squads in Germany.

But I suppose that a few million lives isn't worth much compared to allowing dictators to kill wantonly.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Pistols, sure. The Muj did a pretty good job of "confronting a military equipped with tanks, mortars, airplanes, and nuclear missiles" with AKs and PKs though.

Guns probably can't stop a full-fledged genocide, but they can defeat occupying forces easily, and might weaken a genocidal power enough to make them easier to take down later, or deter them from doing it to somebody else.

[loveconstitution1789]

Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot|11.5.17 @ 5:13PM|#
You're saying that if people in those countries had hunting rifles there would have been a different outcome?

If citizens also had automatic weapons, tanks, grenades, machine guns, silencers, etc. there would have been a different outcome. Those are the things the 2nd Amendment protects not matter what lefty judges say.

[mtrueman]

"If citizens also had automatic weapons, tanks, grenades, machine guns, silencers, etc. there would have been a different outcome. "

Having these weapons means nothing if you haven't the resolve to use them against your enemies. Gun toting Texans have proved this again today.

[Sevo]

trueman is a lying POs one more time:

"'Hero' neighbor got his rifle, shot at Texas church gunman"
http://nypost.com/2017/11/05/h.....ch-gunman/

Let's read your passive-aggressive bullshit one more time, you idiot.

[Cy]

"Having these weapons means nothing if you haven't the resolve to use them against your enemies. Gun toting Texans have proved this again today."

As the guy came out of the church after shooting all of those people, there was a Texan waiting for him and wrestled the gun out of his arms. What was that about resolve again?

[mtrueman]

"What was that about resolve again?"

Did nothing to prevent the killings.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Trueman knows for a fact the killing would've stopped there.

[mtrueman]

The killings haven't stopped. There'll be more massacres by the end of the week. Chickens, roosts, coming home to.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

But enough about Europe.

[Robert]

Oh, hell, the most effective war making is stealthy?done in such a way that the populace doesn't even know there's a war on, & both sides hush it up. "Accidents" happen.

[mtrueman]

"I don't know why Cuba was lumped into this group"

Two words: Che Guevara T-shirts.

[Red Tony]

Also because they shoot at people trying to get out of the country and imprison tons of political dissidents.

[68W58]

He approves of this killings-in most of those cases it was his boys doing the shooting.

[Sevo]

"I don't get it."

Fucking vile piece of shit.

[Eric]

"Getting out ahead of the gun grabbers - no matter how many people die because of freedoms like the 2nd, it will never be as many as those who died because they didn't have freedoms like the 2nd."

Right? Fucking western Europe, Australia and Japan are hellholes with mass shootings going on all the time. Poor gun-less sops, amirite? I'm much happier to be here in the U.S. where we don't have to worry about that shit due to our armed society.

[Eric]

I should state that I am a gun owner, and even reluctant 2nd supporter. Just fucking sick of this shit right now...and the 2A crowd's arguments just sound hollow lately.

[ALWAYS RIGHT]

I am sick of the 2A arguments. The purpose of the 2A is not defense against criminals. It is defense against a ruling class gone bad: judges, prosecutors, cops, law makers ...........

[Memory Hole]

If the ruling class goes bad that means the voters are likely also corrupted which means your 2nd Amend armed neighbors are just as likely to use thst 2nd Amen arsenal to put that boot back on your neck then they would be to fight by your side.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

The whole point of the 2A is to make attacking minorities an unpleasant prospect for the majority. Rare is the historical genocide that was carried out against a majority, and oppressed minorities can't just crowd the capital square like a majority can.

[68W58]

Ok-why should we not have the means to resist them as well?

[Memory Hole]

Nah, I like knowing some of my neighbors are hardcore for freedom and well-armed even if the real battle will be won or lost at the ballot box.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Your argument is that is groups that have arms go rogue I should just accept my bullet to my head with apathy. Because the mob rules. Principals over principles, that's a winner argument if I ever heard one.

[loveconstitution1789]

Eric|11.5.17 @ 5:15PM|#
I should state that I am a gun owner, and even reluctant 2nd supporter. Just fucking sick of this shit right now...and the 2A crowd's arguments just sound hollow lately.

You're a leftist who lies about being pro-gun to act like you something original to say.

You want to grab all guns from Americans.

Fuck off slaver.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Quit telling people what THEIR positions are, you lying little Nazi cocksucker.

[loveconstitution1789]

Hey lefty. Remember when you couldn't admit that Nazis are socialists?

We all know what you think there Butt: Big government. Grab guns. Love socialism. Welfare state.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

When their position is to removes rights, objects, money, or stature from others simply because it doesn't effect them then the proper response is "fuck off, slaver."

[Eric]

In your paranoid world, "lefty" is anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You haven't offered up any positions to argue against, so you're hardly in a position to be scolding anyone about partisanship, pea-brain.

[MarkLastname]

If you consistently support lefty positions, then why would anyone care about you disclaimers to the contrary? Hell, even most leftists purport to support 2nd amendment nominally, so it's not even a particularly good disclaimer.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

I should state that I am a gun owner, and even reluctant 2nd supporter. Just fucking sick of this shit right now...and the 2A crowd's arguments just sound hollow lately

"Concerned Conservative Christian" troll spotted.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

If you would prefer to be run over or torn apart by shrapnel bombs, get your passport and do something about it.

[Eric]

what the hell are you talking about?

[68W58]

Bad guys will find a way to kill you if they want-pile bombs are easy to make.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Nice
Melbourne
Akibahara
Manchester
Barcelona
Berlin
Stockholm
Westminster
London Bridge

Also Bataclan, Charlie Hebdo, Anders Breivik, Cumbria, Brussels, Liege and Munich, while we're on the subject.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Now I'm wondering which mass murdering technique would be the best to die from. Shrapnel bomb sounds pretty bad. A shot to the head is pretty clean, but a shot to the gut or something is excruciating. Getting it by a car is probably bad. Hmm.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Having a dump truck full of starved puppies dumped on you.

Their piranha-like hunger will ensure a fast demise, and the Sarah McLachlan music that will start spontaneously playing in the background will let you die with the knowledge that your uncooked flesh is giving dozens of furry little creatures a second lease on life.

[XM]

I'm not a gun owner and frankly guns scare me. Unless a sequel to the LA riots was right before my nose, I would never purchase guns.

I could live in Japan, which has no Islamic terror or mass shootings because their society can arbitrarily filter out these elements. In exchange I get to work 11 hours day in a society reputed for its cold people and regimented lifestyle. Because it's virtually impossible for companies in Japan to fire people, the job market is always stagnant.

Freedom is all about tradeoffs. The constitution that allows gun ownership also enable numerous other protections for its citizens - especially from the state. And America is still "wild west" enough where gun defense is a plausible necessity. What are that chances that "minorities' will stage a huge race riot in Japan? Zero. Because it's a single culture nation where people don't go beyond certain lines. America has to deal with gazillions of people with all their disparate issues and gripes, who can effectively hole themselves in little communities with no effort.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Though it'd be terribly ironic if you moved to Japan to get away from mass killings, only to send your kid to a school in Osaka, your grandma to a nursing home in Samigahara, or your friend to a game shop in Akibahara.

[Eric L]

I was living in Japan in 2008 and was in Akihabara the week before that attack. A few years later when I came back to the US I brought up that attack in response to someone who said that we wouldn't have any mass killings if the US just banned all guns. They responded to me that yeah, but you can't kill as many people as you can with a gun. This was before the Nice attack, so no you can kill many people by driving a truck into a crowd. Look how more frequently these types of attacks here in US and elsewhere occur.

PS it is spelled Sagamihara.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

I was going from memory, we regret the error. You echo my thoughts exactly.

[vek]

Long and the short of it is that the USA is so fucked up because globalism/multiculturalism/leftism is failing, social cohesion is crumbling because all the "old ways" were destroyed in the name of the aforementioned, and we're getting all kinds of unhealthy aberrations because of the dysfunction. The Japanese are wise to keep their country Japanese as that keeps out several of the major sources of problems.

As far as our murder rates directly, we would be comparable to Europe if you removed the black and hispanic murders, both of which are considerably disproportionate in their population. Blacks are always around 50% of murders, (4-5x their population) and hispanics usually around 30% (2x pop) IIRC. Europe historically didn't have these large immigrant and ghettoized populations, hence lower crime rates. Their crime rates are now climbing rapidly as they allow in all the rabble from 3rd world countries. Idiots :/

3rd world cultures introduced to 1st world countries don't magically become civilized overnight. Also see differences in average IQ correlated with average IQ of criminals (of any race), and higher testosterone levels in Africans and the relation of testosterone to violent behavior in males... Sorry it's not PC, but science is science...

[Bra Ket]

Places like Japan also have drastically lower rates of all other crimes, like knifings and robberies.

England (one of the highest crime countries in Europe) had a significantly lower shooting and murder rate than the US even before they banned guns. I'm curious what counter stats you have for the other European countries that would make them any better for comparison.

Comparing these cultures with a million different variables is a bad way to prove anything. How about you compare the murder rates in Mexico (with stricter gun laws) to the US. Oh look you get the opposite conclusion. But let's cherry pick the ones on the opposite side of the planet, rather than the adjacent country that provides our largest source of immigrants.

[MarkLastname]

US has stricter drug laws than most (maybe all) of western Europe, and yet has much higher rates of illegal drug addiction; another example the success of legal prohibition.

[Cy]

Ha... "immigrants."

[John C. Randolph]

Fucking western Europe

Do the words "holocaust" or "homolodor" ring any bells, sparky?

-jcr

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

"Homolodor"? What have you got against Mexican wrestling troupes, ?hombre?

[Shante Michelle]

You're missing a part of the issue, maybe the biggest part. The 2nd is a huge sign of how the government sees its people. Are we all sovereign individuals with the right to protect ourselves and property? Are we a constitutional republic or a democracy ruled by an emotional majority where the minority has only the rights the majority allows? Are we the worst of our citizens all to be punished when one breaks the law? Should the people have the right to defend themselves from the tyranny of their own government or others who would remove the rights that they were born with?

[No Yards Penalty]

I guess the answer was 'retarded' and not 'satire.' Well done. Shitferbrains Michelle
You dun good spreading the NRA farting points.

[No Yards Penalty]

Didn't someone already post this as satire earlier in the thread?

[Snort]

(I know this is mean, but here goes) And? Just another mass shooting in America.

[Jerryskids]

Mass shooting? It was a Baptist church, not a Catholic.

[loveconstitution1789]

This will not be a very Pope-ular joke.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

You know who was last one left?

John, the Baptist.

[BestUsedCarSales]

If it was Catholics murdered in Texas this wouldn't have made the news.

[Otis B. Driftwood]

Can we get Tony in here to stand on the corpses and proselytize about giving the "Nazi" government all of our firearms?

[Red Tony]

Well ya see, I don't like the second amendment. That's because I don't trust my neighbors with guns. Now, I don't trust Donald Trump either, but I trust the government. Therefore, I trust the government with guns. But not Donald Trump. Because he only won due to Russian meddling and the like. Not because my neighbors don't trust the government when it comes to them not abusing their guns. So we should all give Donald Trump our guns. Even though I'm certain Donald Trump will abuse his possession of all the guns to hurt us.

[Bra Ket]

The point is that people are inherently evil but democracy is always good.

Also when people vote for the wrong things we get a judge to overturn it.

[SIV]

Atheists Fear Backlash

[Hello Clarice]

Wimps

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Nope, already bought my guns.

[Red Tony]

This Sunday sucks. And honestly, this is the worst news I've seen today, and it puts my football team's losing in very harsh perspective.

Question for y'all: are mass shootings more common nowadays, or is it just that there's a national 24-hour media that can cover these things?

[Rich]

First, a question for you: What is a "mass shooting"?

[Red Tony]

I actually don't know, but if I were to hazard a guess as to how I'd define it (and I'm pulling this out of my butt):

Five or more casualties, a firearm (or firearms) was the weapon that caused them, NOT gang violence (which probably lowers the number a fair amount). In other words, several people are injured or killed and there is no quasi-economic impetus for the shooting (not ruling out some guy shooting up a country club where he's a member, but ruling out some guy shooting up a rival gang in order to take over some street corners).

[Rich]

Thanks.

I don't know the answer to your question. However, some guy shooting up "bullies" or "co-workers who fucked him over" *seems* to be more common; and it's difficult to blame it on "gun availability".

[Bra Ket]

I believe the "official" definition is four deaths, and it counts the shooter if he dies. Including when it's the cops that killed him.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

A mass shooting is an incident involving multiple victims of firearms-related violence.[1] The United States' Congressional Research Service acknowledges that there is not a broadly accepted definition, and defines a "public mass shooting"[2] as one in which four or more people selected indiscriminately, not including the perpetrator, are killed, echoing the FBI definition[3][4] of the term "mass murder". Another unofficial definition of a mass shooting is an event involving the shooting (not necessarily resulting in death) of four or more people with no cooling-off period.[5] Related terms include school shooting and massacre.

Wiki

[Francisco d'Anconia]

A mass shooting is an incident involving multiple victims of firearms-related violence.[1] The United States' Congressional Research Service acknowledges that there is not a broadly accepted definition, and defines a "public mass shooting"[2] as one in which four or more people selected indiscriminately, not including the perpetrator, are killed, echoing the FBI definition[3][4] of the term "mass murder". Another unofficial definition of a mass shooting is an event involving the shooting (not necessarily resulting in death) of four or more people with no cooling-off period.[5] Related terms include school shooting and massacre.

Wiki

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Nut eating vermin

[Bra Ket]

Of course I meant the "official" unofficial definition.

[DaveSs]

According to criminologists, the incidence rate of murdering multiple people in public places seemingly at random is steady or down.

That is, excluding cases where an asshole kills his entire family, and gang shootings and such. Different motivations.

[Red Tony]

Thanks.

[StackOfCoins]

It feels like there's been a big spike post-Trump. There might be correlation there.

[Robert]

My football team finished its season yesterday by a 0-33 loss. They lost their final 3 games, & I think they were kind of bored w football after the 1st 7. I could see it in practice & warmups.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Cowboys beat the Chiefs. Sunday much improved.

[vek]

Just like in the good ol' days back in the 1800s! LOL

[Robespierre Josef Stalin Pot]

More than 20 people have been reported dead and more have been reported wounded at a mass shooting inside the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas.

Yawn. It's just too early...

[loveconstitution1789]

I bet its a been a long night of sleeping well thanks to the constitution and the freedoms that are protected in the USA.

[Eric]

Trump: "I am monitoring the situation from Japan."

Translation: "I'm getting the latest Fox News feeds and will provide a divisive, tone-deaf, and entirely disheartening tweet storm during my mid-evening bowl movement."

[Migrant Log Chipper]

Fuck off, troll.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Fuck you, you dickbag. Trump is a canker sore on America. Making fun of that bastard is our patriotic duty.

[loveconstitution1789]

Aw Butt. Remember its been almost a year since Trump kicked Hillary's ass in the elections.

[Eric]

Carry that orange dipshit's water like a good little Republican minion.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Carry that orange dipshit's water like a good little Republican minion.

Continue kissing Hillary's ass like a good little proglydyte waste of carbon molecules.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug|11.5.17 @ 6:27PM|#
"Fuck you, you dickbag."
Go fuck your daddy, turd. You're a pimple on the ass of humanity and a loser besides.

[Eric]

Troll? This isn't Red State dumbass?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

It isn't Media Matters either, shitwit.

[MarkLastname]

I know right? It's time for us to come together in unity to cunicslly plug legislation over half of us oppose. yay unity! And that half of the population that's anti unity can fuck off straight to hell!

[XM]

Rand Paul was attacked yesterday by a Bernie fan and this week rally time for the "resistance".

I suspect that the shooter is a mentally disturbed (most likely white) male, but with the left reaching peak hysteria over Trump on a daily basis, I wouldn't be surprised if the attack was politically motivated.

I don't remember medical professionals (not some antifa swine) attacking republicans in their own homes during the Bush era, and the left detested him. Hopefully someone like Tony can makes sense out of the violence rising from the peace loving progs.

[Memory Hole]

Republicans mostly get their tribal rocks off in uniforms under the color of law and on the Internet living vicariously through police brutality videos.

[Sevo]

One more fucking vile piece of shit.
Lefties mostly get their rocks off through mass murder, asshole.

[Memory Hole]

Please motherfucker. People, right or left, can be sons of bitches but if we're speaking in generalities it's the right-wingers in this country who celebrate violence and have gun fetishes to a far greater extent then the left. That anti-fascist threat is mostly overhyped right wing propaganda.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

As is the actual-fascist threat. Both sides are few and overhyped by their counterposed mainstream opposition.

[Sevo]

"...if we're speaking in generalities it's the right-wingers in this country who celebrate violence and have gun fetishes..."

One more fucking vile piece of shit.
Lefties mostly get their rocks off through mass murder, asshole.

[MarkLastname]

Whatever you say, pal, whatever you say.

[Memory Hole]

I shouldn't have said Republicans and look man, I realize the communists won the gold medal in the 20th century. I was speaking more about my own personal experiences.

[Sevo]

Maybe you should learn to be honest, but lefties hardly ever do so.

[Robert]

When anesthesiologists go around tackling ophthalmologists, it makes you wonder if hospitals are going to be even scarier places than they've usually been.

[Bra Ket]

"I suspect that the shooter is a mentally disturbed (most likely white) male..."

I'd say the odds are about 65 percent that it is a white male and 35 percent that is it some other race male 😛

0.1% chance of female (in the roundoff above).

Transgender counts as male.

100 percent chance mentally disturbed.

[Ken Shultz]

Terrible tragedy.

My heart goes out to all the friends and family.

[Alcibiades]

More than 20 dead in Texas?
That's almost half a months word of homicides in Chicago, that Democratic epicenter of gun control success!

[Palin's Buttplug]

That does it. I am packing the next time I go to church.

[Hello Clarice]

Nice to see your consistent behavior in finding the suffering of other amusing. Be honest, how erect did you get when you read this story? Everyone here probably already knows the answer ;).

[Palin's Buttplug]

I'm opposed to gun control, you idiot.

As for personal tragedies - they happen every hour.

[loveconstitution1789]

You're not opposed to gun control.

You are definitely pro-government violence to further that socialist agenda. The more dead dissenters, the better, ammirite?

[Hello Clarice]

Either you replied to the wrong comment, or totally missed the point of my comment (spoiler: it's was poking fun of the fact that you like to see people die). Didn't really care about your stances on guns at all. Please read before typing. Thanks! 🙂

[Palin's Buttplug]

I "like" to see people die?

You are a lying little cocksucker like your pal LoveCons.

[Hello Clarice]

Why add the parentheses? Seems like an odd choice. Was I supposed to infer that you love when 5 year olds die because they were from Texas? Fine, I'll take your word on that you sick sad little persona.

[Palin's Buttplug]

I quoted you, you idiot.

[Hello Clarice]

That's pretty hardcore man. But you're inability to respond in a decent manner to anything above seems to only support my claim and show your unwillingness to show any form of empathy with other people.

I sir, am humbled by your dedication to the cause of proving how much you hate your internet enemies.

[loveconstitution1789]

Aw poor Butt knows that the truth hurts.

You're either with Butt's socialist ways or your against him. If you're against him, he calls you his favorite past-time.

[loveconstitution1789]

You're a gun grabber, so why would you want to carry a gun?

"The government protects you" is your BS socialist line, right?

[Palin's Buttplug]

You're a gun grabber

Eat shit, liar. I just don't suck Trump's little dick like you do.

[Hello Clarice]

A) I'm not so sure about that, you have a proclivity to put dick sucking and Trump into a lot of the same posts, so it could be an unconscious need for sucking.

B) You true delight is seeing the deaths of people you've never met because of where they lived and what they did in their free time.

Stay classy and consistent kiddo

[loveconstitution1789]

Tip: You have to clear the dookie and spittle from your mouth for people to understand your rantings, Butt.

You a little gun grabbing lefty.

[Ecoli]

It's not little. It's Yuuuge!

[loveconstitution1789]

Kelley walked into the First Baptist Church and began shooting around 11:20 a.m., before fleeing in a vehicle,

Palin's Buttplug|11.5.17 @ 6:28PM|#
That does it. I am packing the next time I go to church.

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt said. Witnesses said Kelley was dressed in all black and a Department of Public Safety official said he was carrying a Ruger AR rifle.
Tackitt said Kelley was later found dead in the vehicle in Guadalupe County. The exact circumstances of his death are not known.
Johnnie Langendorff told KSAT's Garret Brngr that he witnessed the end of the shooting and said another man and Kelley exchanged gunfire after Kelley left the church. Langendorff said he and the man chased Kelley for several minutes in their vehicle.
citizens possible chased down shooter and killed him
No need, there are people around in Texas who are armed and willing to chase down a mass murderer and stop them.

I wonder if the media will record this as an instance of armed Americans helping those being attacked?

[Griffin3]

It's on CNN, no less:
--> http://www.wnem.com/story/3677.....y-deadlier

Unless CNN-Wire is different from CNN? I can't seem to find the article on CNN itself.

[loveconstitution1789]

Its almost as if there is a concerted effort to commit senseless acts of violence to further the lefty gun grabbing agenda.

[Palin's Buttplug]

As a Republican boot-licker you should rejoice when the Dems commit political suicide by yelling for gun control.

[loveconstitution1789]

The left has been committing political suicide for years and it has more to do with their message is being dismissed by more and more Americans than just gun grabbing.

How do you keep licking so many lefty fascist boots year after year?

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

{facepalm}

[loveconstitution1789]

That's why I used "almost". Not that there is a conspiracy but I am just saying....

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

"Not that there is a conspiracy" is not a great sentence fragment to follow up with "but..."

[loveconstitution1789]

There is not a proven conspiracy.

On another note, there have sure been a lot of instances where lefties get in tantrums and commit violence.

[Eric]

Get help LC. Your beliefs are healthy. Get off the internet. Date a woman in real life. Find some friends who don't dress in camo, or prep for a living. There is a great big world out there full of amazing people who don't want to hurt you.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

@ Eric

Well you should get out of your pajamas and stop advocating for the repeal of the Constitution!

...What? I thought we were playing the "make gross assumptions about other anonymous commenters" game.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

@ lc1789

And if that is true, what does that have to do with anything remotely like a conspiracy?

[C. S. P. Schofield]

Ok, let's be clear here. We. Don't. Know. Enough.

We don't know who the shooter was/is.

We don't know any part of why.

We don't know where the gun(s) came from, or even what guns were used.

We don't even know if the Church was a self-designated Gun Free Zone.

What I will say is; If you want gun control, have the honesty to admit you must first repeal part of the Bill of Rights. Make a proposal. Because while I am prepared to admit that guns in the general populace can be bad, a government that won't allow its authority to be limited by its,own laws is a serious menace.

[BestUsedCarSales]

It's never worth making statements right after. Everything is too crazy. Maybe the information is correct, maybe it is not. For us pissant observers it certainly doesn't hurt to wait before saying anything.

That being said, I suppose it doesn't matter if we get things grossly wrong and shout anything here. This website is basically a bunch of guys kissing each other, but sometimes we're angry when we do it.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

You know you've watched too much porn when it starts to bleed into your perception of waking reality like an Arkham Asylum Scarecrow sequence.

[AndyWingall]

The people for strong gun control laws are also typically for reducing felonies charges to misdemeanors and believe in a revolving door justice system--in fact they have a very long history of a general soft on violent crime stance. Anyone notice that odd dichotomy? Seems to me the Left supports violence and wishes to see the law-abiding citizen disarmed. Not a good combo if you're into survival.

[AndyWingall]

BTW, this bi-polar Left Wing stance on crime is what drives up gun sales. Another irony.

[Ecoli]

There is no such thing as common sense gun control.

There is no way to prevent looney people from committing murders.

Living is dangerous and it invariably ends in death.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I'm not certain if anything can be done. But I will always say that I hate "common-sense ____." It is a meaningless phrase where someone is attempting to make it seem like their belief is obvious, no matter what it may be.

No law is common-sense.

[loveconstitution1789]

Jeff Jones, a registered nurse who worked with Boucher at the Bowling Green Medical Center, described Boucher's politics as "liberal."

"He was active on social media and said some negative things about the Republican agenda," Jones said.
Jim Bullington, a former member of the city commission, knows both men. He said Sunday that Boucher is divorced and lives alone. Bullington described Boucher as a socialist.
"He's pretty much the opposite of Rand Paul in every way," Bullington said in an interview.

The neighbors had been known to have "heated discussions" about health care, Bullington said, adding that Boucher is an advocate of a national health system.
More on attack against Rand Paul

[ChipToBeSquare]

I am seeing an indication that someone shot at him and it spooked him into dropping his rifle and fleeing. The Daily Beast has reported it (it's in their ID of the shooter) and ABC's local affiliate, KVUE, had reported it as well on their Twitter. This is apparently a statement directly from law enforcement. I have not seen the press conference yet

I caution against immediately jumping to a conclusion on this though. There is often misinformation in the first 24 hours after these sorts of things. I've already seen Sam Hyde reported as the shooter (that's a 4chan meme for the unaware)

[ChipToBeSquare]

To clarify: it was reportedly a private citizen shooting at him

[Sevo]

ChipToBeSquare|11.5.17 @ 7:49PM|#
"To clarify: it was reportedly a private citizen shooting at him"

For reasons I can't quite understand, this news seems to be not well distributed:

"Updated: Witness to Texas Church shooting: a neighbor shot suspect causing him to leave the scene"
https://crimeresearch.org/ 2017/11/witness-texas-church-shooting- neighbor-shot-suspect-causing-leave-scene/

Pelosi, among others, is trying to make sure that neighbor doesn't have a chance to do so in the future.
Hey, Hole! Do you reckon the neighbor might be a 'conservative Republican'? Yes, Hole, I'm asking YOU.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Jeeby saith: "Pack when ye enter the Temple, boys".

[SIV]

I never trust these early reports but so far it looks like the New Braunfels Butcherer of Baptists was a self-radicalized recent convert to Atheism.

[Palin's Buttplug]

So you are saying Baptists don't believe their own bullshit?

I can agree. Jerry Falwell was a loathsome motherfucker who molested his own mother in an outhouse for example.

[Bra Ket]

Religious people generally don't believe their own nonsense. That's why they have to have "faith" and struggle with having it their entire lives.

It's a silly anachronism, but why are you such a dick about it? Your dad was a religious jerk? Or is it some a bias that (mistakenly) assumes religious people are primarily on the right?

[SIV]

Militant Evangelical Atheist confirmed

[Palin's Buttplug]

Papa Johns Tells Nazis 'Don't Buy Our Pizza' After Chain Is Claimed As Official Pie Of Alt-Right

https://goo.gl/EP9SMQ

Papa John's the preferred pizza of Nazis/GOP/conservatives.

[SIV]

I never eat their pies but Papa John's is the only major chain to offer anchovies as a topping anymore. Fuckin' Millennials eat ass on the first date but won't eat the tastiest pizza topping if you paid them to.

[Red Tony]

Okay, two questions.

Firstly, how do you know that Millennials eat ass on the first date?

Secondly, are you gonna buy me a pizza with anchovies?

[ChipToBeSquare]

We eat ass on the first date

[Cy]

We learned after the Great Recession not to be picky about getting fucking.

[Cy]

"getting fucking"

It's still early...

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Why do you think we go to Domino's or Pizza Hut instead? Gotta have something decent to wash that taste down with.

[Eidde]

OK, not only does the news depress me, but somehow I'm not even hungry any more.

[Leo Kovalensky]

Fuckin' Millennials eat ass on the first date but won't eat the tastiest pizza topping if you paid them to.

For the right price I'll eat anchovies from your ass, but only on the 2nd date.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I knew this website was nothing but a bunch of conservatives.

[Fuck =><= sevo]

This absolutely fascinates me.

Papa John's comes out an explicitly says to them " don't want your business"...

And this fucking idiot Palin's Buttplug ( a reference so dated it exudes dust every time you type it) is so illterate and dumb that he reads that as "Papa John's the preferred pizza of Nazis/GOP/conservatives."

How does he thinks this follows? How does he not realize how fucking stupid he looks?

And why is Palin's Buttplug still pretending he's not a rape apollogist and defender, and a homohpobe?

[Fuck =><= sevo]

Palin's Buttplug goes full rape apologist

[Red Tony]

UNLIKE PALIN'S BUTTPLUG, STEVE SMITH APOLOGIZES FOR NOTHING.

[Fuck =><= sevo]

He owns it at least. That's somethng.

[Sevo]

"And why is Palin's Buttplug still pretending he's not a rape apollogist and defender, and a homohpobe?"

Turd has been called on bullshit more often than Obo, Bubba or the hag wife. And yet that lying POS still claims that others have yet to understand his lies.
There is no education available for stupid; ignorance can be cured.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I'm always so curious about him. I think Palin's Buttplug/Joseph Robespierre Stalin Pot/Other? Is probably the worst regular poster on the site. I wonder what drives him. There are many who disagree here, but he doesn't even seem to have consistent beliefs or anything to really argue. Just pure bile.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

I don't think PB and RJSP are the same. The latter is AmSoc and argues outright for socialism and gun control, whereas PB claims to be a "classical liberal" who likes Ayn Rand. And I've seen him say that consistently for the entire time I've been commenting here, so I suspect he really means it (cognitive dissonance notwithstanding).

[Domestic Dissident]

Dipshit Dave Weigel has never gotten over being fired by Welch, and apparently never will. It also doesn't help that everyone here hates his guts. Of course, even many of his liberal "friends" can't stand his dumb ass; that's why one of them outed him on the JournoList.

And he's not a "homophobe" either, he's a fag himself. That's just a part of the absurd persona and schtick he has created for himself here.

[IAmJon]

How often does this have to happen before it's not "news" anymore?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

When deaths from firearms are the same high rate that they were 25 years ago.

[Sevo]

"How often does this have to happen before it's not "news" anymore?"

A few times? Many times?
WIH is your point?

[Careless]

Impossible to imagine what it would be like if 1 in 14 people in your town were killed in a few minutes like that

[No Yards Penalty]

Good to see the Reason gun nuts get ahead of this.

[loveconstitution1789]

Good to see the lefty gun grabbing nuts get ahead of this.

Stay classy slavers.

[AndyWingall]

I wonder if any peace-loving left wing media executives have tweeted yet: "They were in a Christian church, they were probably conservative Trump supporters, they got what they deserve."