What Do 'Women in Liberty' Want?

Does biology dictate that ladies love the state? Hell no, say these panelists at the annual Free State Project festival.

Why aren't there more female libertarians? Is it because biology dictates that ladies love the state?

These are the sorts of tedious questions women in the "liberty movement" field at far too many events. So when some of us gathered last week at "Porcfest"—formally the Porcupine Freedom Festival, an annual campground conference and party put on by the Free State Project—we used a "Women in Liberty" panel to deconstruct myths about male dominance in liberty circles, the incompatibility of libertarianism and feminism, and libertarians' ability to make "emotional arguments."

Reason's Melissa Mann, along with libertarian activist and writer Avens O'Brien, Kat Murti of the Cato Institute and Feminists for Liberty, and Free the People CEO Terry Kibbe joined in a panel I moderated. Friends in the audience took video of the hour-long panel, which I have cobbled together. My editing skills might be sub-par, but my wise and off-the-cuff co-panelists make it worth your while anyway.

Comments

[AlmightyJB]

I don't see a video?

[AlmightyJB]

Ok, I see it now. I'll watch it later.

[Chupacabra]

Oh, I bet you will. Pervert.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I'm glad they finally got all the female libertarians together to talk.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Dang, the article text mocks the very type of comment I just made. Now I feel scummy.

[Crusty Juggler - Sapiosexual]

You are so unlikable.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I truly know it.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The ladies just want to be taken care of. Who's going to do that? The market? No. Government.

Search your scummy feelings. You know it to be true.

[esteve7]

you beat me to it --- they found all 5 female libertarians!

[Troy muy grande boner]

It is sad that you can fit all libertarian women in one minivan. I miss Lucy.

[Crusty Juggler - Sapiosexual]

My guess: the number of libertarian-minded women is much higher than you apparently think, because these women have the good sense not to compulsively post about their gender on websites like reason.com, mostly because of tedious men like bestusedcarsales

[Crusty Juggler - Feminist]

Also, I assume a good number of women are turned off by the right, and are tired of being patronized by whatever the feminist left has become.

But mostly it was because of men like bestusedcarsales.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I'm willing to openly admit now that I hate women and love stretch marks.

[Crusty Juggler - Feminist]

Ewwwwwww.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

How is Cristy on the right side of this conversation? Did I miss the notification that today is opposite day?

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Crusty*.

Stupid phone.

[Chipper Morning, Now #1]

Crusty is only Cristy on Saturdays.

[BestUsedCarSales]

My evil is so unbounded that all appear as saints before me.

[IceTrey]

What do "Women in Liberty" want?

More liberty?

[loveconstitution1789]

Liberty or Bust!

[Thomas O.]

(Insert breast size joke here)

[Palin's Buttplug]

They are all pro-choice or they're not libertarian. That is a simple fact.

No woman who supports a police state to require formal birth can be libertarian.

(Rand Paul Aborto-Freak "libertarians" will object, of course).

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Yes. There are only two positions on that topic, and that is always the hill to die on for every woman.

Tell me more about how libertarians only think about hetero positions and progressives are the only group to understand diverse opinions.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Won't work, jackass. If you support a police state to enforce personal reproductive laws you are no libertarian.

One can be MORALLY opposed to abortion but the police state to enforce such is a liberty killer.

Likewise, one can be MORALLY opposed to porndrugs but anti-porn/drug laws disqualify your Liberty bona-fides.

[MarkLastname]

No, retard; if one believes the fetus is a person entitled to the same legal rights as other persons, they may favor the same prohibition of deliberately killing said fetus that protects infants already born.

Disagree if you want, but one can be a proliferation or pro choice libertarian, depending on when one thinks personhood begins (and the moment it's born is every bit as arbitrary as the moment it's conceived).

You're being as moronic as people who say you can't be a libertarian unless you support abolishing all taxes or withdrawing from the UN.

[Charles Easterly]

and the moment it's born is every bit as arbitrary as the moment it's conceived).

Mark,

If you don't mind doing so, please explain this to me. I know that it is not a private discussion and therefore others who are reading these comments will read your explanation. Thus, if you don't mind doing so, please this to anyone who might read it.

[Palin's Buttplug]

He can't. Conception is a different event than birth.

An egg is an egg and a chicken is a chicken. A chicken is not an egg.

Police state moralists like to blend the entities together.

[MarkLastname]

Buttplug, how do you feel about the police state forcing parents to raise their children? Feed them buy them healthcare, etc? If someone decides they don't want to do it, isn't it just so mean of the police state to arrest people for child neglect?

Mind you, I'm not even really pro life. I don't think a one cell zygote is a person. But you're an absolute moron if you think birth makes sense as a the delineator between human and not human.

As for chickens, if I take an egg the moment before it hatches, crack open the egg and take out the baby chicken, is it not a chicken? What makes it less a chicken than what it would've been a few minutes later had I waited for it to hatch.

Allow me to explain some remedial biology: an egg does not contain amorphous goo until hatches, then instantaneously it becomes a chicken. By the time an egg hatches there, beyond dispute, a chicken inside egg. Embryonic development is gradual in nature, and the distinctions between stages are, I repeat, essentially arbitrary; imaginary lines drawn by humans for the convenience of being able to describe them.

[MarkLastname]

To argue that pulling an infant out of a vagina could feed it humanity and all the concomitant rights is no more logical than arguing that it's conception confers its humanity.

There is no reason why, if a moment before birth it should be legal to kill it, it should be illegal to do so afterward. Or for that matter, it would be no less logical to set the arbitrary date at the 1st birthday: you can kill it until it turns 1. Why not? The dependency argument doesn't hold water either, as it's still illegal to let a child dependent on you die once its born.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Forget it, Buttplug is unable to see anything beyond a stark contrast. "We know it's not a murky subject because of 'consensus'".

I hate having to defend prolifers. I'm not pro-life. I don't disagree with government funding abortions. But at least be honest about the grey areas and stop this entrenched idea of enemies in an ill defined concept.

[Dan S.]

We need to draw the line someplace, and birth is the most sensible place to draw it. A zygote is very obviously not a person, so drawing it at conception makes no sense. Birth, more specifically the moment when the first breath of air is inhaled, makes more sense than any other moment in development as the point in time when rights are "endowed". Up until that moment, the fetus depends on the mother's body for it's oxygen supply, it cannot exist independently for even a minute. After birth, the dependency is not moment-to-moment as it is for a fetus. In fact, someone else could provide the newborn with food, and he/she would survive. I won't get into metaphysical arguments about the "soul", but some people do believe that the soul becomes "bound" to the body at birth. Some say they can see the "aura" undergo a rapid realignment when a baby begins breathing; at a minimum, we know the circulatory system undergoes a major realignment, with the closing of the foramen ovale in the heart.

Anyway, why should a discussion about female libertarians automatically focus on these issues? It really shouldn't.

[damikesc]

To argue that pulling an infant out of a vagina could feed it humanity and all the concomitant rights is no more logical than arguing that it's conception confers its humanity.

Would also suck for C-section babies...

[IceTrey]

There is no right to force another person to support your life. A fetus is a parasite.

[MarkLastname]

So are infants.

[BigT]

So are 20-somethings that move back home.

[IceTrey]

Nope.

an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

[Azathoth!!]

No. They are not.

A parasite is a organism, of a different species from it's host, that lives at the expense of the host.

A fetus is the natural product of human reproduction that can only come into existence if a human being engages in reproductive activity.

[IceTrey]

Nope.

an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

[Philadelphia Collins]

So are people on permanent welfare.

[Bra Ket]

Eh so does your version of "libertarianism" get to support the the of a POLICE STATE to enforce other laws protecting rights of people, say against murder? Or are you actually consistent in your demand for anarchism?

[MarkLastname]

He's not consistent in his demand for anarchism; hell, he spends most of his time here defending Obamacare.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug|6.29.17 @ 8:34PM|#
"Won't work, jackass...."

Yeah, turd, we got it.
Don't love Obo? turd is on you like stink.
Go fuck your daddy, turd.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

For more fun, let's talk about how only a woman can enforce the decision in a three party situation. Woman, man, and baby are all involved. Only one has the final say. Is that your beloved police state enforcing that? Or not enforcing it?

[MarkLastname]

Or at least there should be no compulsory child support for the man involved. If the choice is entirely allotted to the woman, so to should all financial responsibility. Anyone who supports compulsory child support cannot really be said to be pro-choice.

[IceTrey]

It's because the woman owns the uterus. Abortion is a question of property rights.

[damikesc]

A body with different DNA than the mother is her property? Intriguing. Very pro-liberty of you.

[Brandybuck]

One can also be LEGALLY opposed to murder. There's something in that there Non-Aggression Principle about not initiating violence against human beings. Why do we demand that the STATE be the one to decide who is and isn't a human being?

[Philadelphia Collins]

I believe in a female's right to continue living.

[damikesc]

One can be MORALLY opposed to abortion but the police state to enforce such is a liberty killer.

Palin's buttplug also coming out in support of slavery.

I mean, sure, it's wrong --- but think of the police state required to stop it. Amirite?

[x'); DROP USER Tony;]

(Rand Paul Aborto-Freak "libertarians" will object, of course).

I'm pro-choice, and don't care for either Paul all that much.

Your comment was fucking retarded, as per usual.

[Philadelphia Collins]

Are you pro your life?

[BestUsedCarSales]

One comment that was interesting was the one person's commentary about libertarian claims that the market will rise up and replace these government services if allowed. They then say that libertarians need to make good on those claims, and do more to show activity done to actually replace these services. Concrete action.

Seems like a fair point, and one I think about a lot. I do seem to just wallow in philosophical quandary rather than doing anything. Though on the other hand, there is a lot of stuff that I simply could not do given the current regulatory situation. Setting up a rival water company or something.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I come to Reason to see videos on manly topics such as 3D printing and bongs and 3D-printed bongs, not to watch an episode of The View. TELL ME THE LIBERTARIAN CASE FOR GTA 5.

[Charles Easterly]

Fist,

I have it upon good authority that "GTA 5", as you wrote it, has as part of the platform an anti-freedom agenda which is abusive to women and children in unequal measures.

[BestUsedCarSales]

But it also has illegal Canadian immigrants and drug distribution, topics of great focus to Reason.

[Charles Easterly]

Would that be H&R Reason?

[NEET]

GTA 5 is shit just like the rest of the series. Nobody should be making any case that brings it in a positive light.
Also when can we expect to 3D-print vaginas? I want to make some homemade pocket pussies.

[Chipper Morning, Now #1]

Oh good. We haven't had a MGTOW representative since we drove Longtorso back to his body pillow.

[NEET]

Don't lump me in with those losers, please. They try to blame women for their own inability to get with the opposite sex. I simply enjoy my solitary jack-off sessions and find that perfection can only be found in other dimensions.

[Chipper Morning, Now #1]

Well, then perhaps you would be interested in another empty position, that of Interdimensional Prophet of Periphrastic Priapism, since Agile Cyborg has not been seen since that teetering tower of tape measures in his garage fell over and trapped him with no sustenance except suckling on a bottle of skunked Rolling Rock.

[NEET]

Can't I just bet that one weird guy who lurks in the corners? I come bearing copious amounts of my homemade lube too.

[American Memer]

Nah, that's Crusty.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I miss that guy. And SugarFree. And Heroic Mulatto.

I miss quite a few people. But glibertarians is just too depressing to visit.

[NEET]

But hey, at least we still have good 'ol Tony! The guy's dedication to baiting this place cannot be understated.

[Meh.]

Interesting and insightful. Thanks!

[NEET]

That was pretty awful. I hope they aren't representative of actual libertarian women. 3DPD women once again displays their inferiority. Also, it's third wave feminism specifically that doesn't mesh well with libertarian values--not feminism in general. Still, I'm in the opinion that most women--and people for that matter--shouldn't be able to vote. (That is once we get rid of taxation.)

[Meh.]

Lol, okay.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Man, I really want to know if you wrote 3DPD for real.

If so, I absolutely NEED your opinion of DFC versus DCT.

[NEET]

Coming from an enlightened gentleman such as myself, DFC is superior to DCT (Disgusting Cow Tits). Sliding your hand down a flat chest is equivalent to feeling the heavens. https://my.mixtape.moe/clfjtj.png

[BestUsedCarSales]

You and I are enemies now. Give me your homeboard so I can shitpost incessantly.

[NEET]

Woah, my friend, rude much? You asked my opinion between the two. I enjoy some breasts, but they pale in comparison to that of a nice flat slab of supply flesh. No bully.
Oh, and go ahead and try to shit up /g/. It's already an ocean of piss, vomit, techs support, and dumb frogposters.

[BestUsedCarSales]

All I can do is post more Stallman jokes. Perhaps that all any can do.

[NEET]

Please do as that's much more preferable to /pol/-bait, frogs, stupid fucking questions, and "/g/ humor" threads.

[Unlabelable MJGreen]

What is going on here?

[NEET]

Well I'm jacking off to 2D scat. You?

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Can't tell if serious.

[NEET]

I'm always serious when it comes to my fapping material.

[x'); DROP USER Tony;]

Virgins discussing their virgin subculture.

[PattyFromTexas]

You don't have to be religious at all to think that an unborn baby is a baby. First of all no one know when a human becomes a human, but they look like babies, they suck their thumbs and respond to their mother's voice long before they're born I believe it's wrong to hurt others and that includes babies.

[NEET]

Abortion is pretty complicated matter than it appears, and I think neither side does it justice. Personally, it's among the smallest problems the United States and its people are experiencing. But, people love to drone on about it.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

The guy that beats it to scat gets it.

[Charles Easterly]

PattyFromTexas,

You wrote You don't have to be religious at all to think that an unborn baby is a baby. First of all no one know when a human becomes a human, but they look like babies, they suck their thumbs and respond to their mother's voice long before they're born I believe it's wrong to hurt others and that includes babies.

I haven't visited these H&R threads with frequency for some time. Perhaps you have. Many of the commentators may have left or altered their manners in the interim. If you have read more than I in recent months then you know what you are getting into with regards to your topic. If not, prepare yourself well.

[Chipper Morning, Now #1]

Charles!!! How is my favorite most normal commenter doing? We miss your evenheadedness around here.

[American Memer]

Speak for yourself. Some of us thrive off the crazy.

[Sevo]

Do they want ads with fat models?

"Plus-size leggings sold on Amazon spark outrage"
[...]
"Betsy Abel of Minneapolis, Minnesota, was innocently scrolling through Amazon looking for a new pair of leggings when she stumbled upon a pair that made her blood boil with anger."
(MSN, amazingly no URL in IE)
I'm guessing Ms. Abel is not and is rather aggressive about it.

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

It seems to me that the things that really offend is are the things we don't like about ourselves a lot of the time. So who is shaming her? The picture or herself?

[Sevens]

What now, no mansplaining *and* no mansasking? (It's a rhetorical question, a grey area.) You women.

[buybuydandavis]

Does biology dictate that ladies love the state?

What is the chance that actual numbers, relative to males, intruded on this discussion?

I'm thinking not.

Naturally, there are some male identified women (just kidding, couldn't resist) who are as perfectly or imperfectly libertarian as men are. But a tiny reflection on your own experience, and what you know of polling data makes it clear: men are the relatively pro Liberty sex.

[Brandybuck]

I bet the name "Porcfest" is drivning a lot of women away. It rhymes with pork-fest. Which doesn't tend to connote lady like activities.

p.s. No offense to the Iowa Pork Queen. She's a lovely lady. Svelte too.