FDA Rules Could Cripple E-Cig Industry

499 pages of new regulation threaten to crush manufacturers.

As Jacob Sullum noted earlier, the FDA dropped a bomb on the e-cigarette industry this week in the name of public health. For customers, it may be time to stock up on supplies or move across the pond.

Of course this isn't the first time e-cigarettes have come under fire. Reason was on hand in New York as the city's 2014 ban on public use took effect.

Read more from Reason on e-cigarettes here.

Comments

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

I have yet to cease to be amazed at how utterly insane the prog War on E-Cigs has been. They're banning a proven alternative to tobacco smoking for no reason other than it superficially resembles smoking and that's bad because children might think smoking is cool.

[Suthenboy]

That's not why they are banning it at all.

[GILMORE?]

Grand Moff Serious Man|5.8.16 @ 9:46AM| block | mute | #

I have yet to cease to be amazed at how utterly insane the prog War on E-Cigs has been. They're banning a proven alternative to tobacco smoking for no reason other than it superficially resembles smoking and that's bad because children might think smoking is cool.

Why amazed?

Its identical to their reaction to everything else.

Their attitude towards Fracking is exactly the same. Fracking is WAY better for the environment than 'dirty coal', and a long term transition to natural gas for electricity generation is a huge step forward in Greenhouse Gas emissions (if one pretends to care about those things).

Yet they'll still piss themselves purple about how Fracking 'releases methane' (*note: so does every other form of energy-resource extraction) ergo is Earth Killing... or how the chemicals in the 99% sand&water; mixture are 'unknown' (they're not; they're just proprietary. Everyone knows generally 'what they are', just not the specific mixes) ... yadda yadda yadda.

Basically, along comes a FAR better energy resource than anything that preceded it, one which satisfies all sorts of demands that environmentalists have long been making... and what do they do? act like fucking Satan has emerged to rape all the planet's kittens, natch.

its what they do. 'oppose stuff'.

[LarryA]

^This. Also see nuclear power generation.

[straffinrun]

Fucking Die Already

[AdamJ]

OT: Austin voters voted to require Uber and Lyft drivers to get fingerprint background checks. One step closer to becoming California. Progs gonna prog.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

In unrelated news, Uber and Lyft are pulling out of Austin. SXSW should be fun next time.

[AdamJ]

I'm sure the cab companies will step up and improve their business to provide what customers want.

[Trigger Hippie]

Us meatbags simply can't be trusted, eh? Austin residents are clearly shills for Big Johnny Cab.

[AdamJ]

Austin residents are like children who demand that city council, the mayor, and the newspapers take care of them and tell them how to think.

[You Sound Like a Prog (MJG)]

What makes this bullshit even better: The Austin City Council banned employers from asking about criminal records early in the hiring process. This was barely a month ago.

[Brochettaward]

Watched Nick's appearance on Maher. On Trump and transgendered bathrooms: "He's actually good on that." He's good on that because he wants to force private businesses to act. Fuck you, Nick.

[Trigger Hippie]

Now, now. Free association is sooo pass?. Much better to State, and State hard. For equality.

[Domestic Dissident]

I wish Slate or Salon or the Post or the Times would hire some of these dishonest jerks around here already.

[Ken Shultz]

I don't get it.

You're saying "Fuck you" to Gillespie because he opposes a law restricting access to bathrooms for transgender people?

You understand Nick's a libertarian, right?

Freedom of association isn't using the government to force businesses to restrict access. Generally speaking, I think Nick is opposed to using the government to force people to do much of anything unless they've been duly convicted of a crime.

[Brochettaward]

1. That is not Trump's position. Trump is not opposed to accommodation laws.
2. Nick's argument is that he doesn't support accommodation laws, but that if we are going to have them, we should apparently expand them to cover transgendered. This is his argument. You want to defend that, Ken?
3. Nick defended the Charlotte law. He blasted the state law. The Charlotte law imposed burdens on private businesses. It limited their freedom of association. The state law did no such thing. Nick has continuously been misleading on that even as other writings on Reason have admitted it in no way applies to private establishments.

[Ken Shultz]

So Nick is arguing about what should happen under accommodation--when the government is violating everybody's right to freedom of association anyway?

Milton Friedman told us we shouldn't have a federal reserve. He also said that if we're going to ignore him and have a federal reserve anyway, then here's what I think we should do: . . .

Gillespie talking about how the law should be applied if they're going to ignore freedom of association is like that. Objecting to Milton Friedman's recommendation about what to do with the federal reserve on the grounds that there shouldn't be a federal reserve is absurd--since the entire recommendation is predicated on us having a federal reserve over his objections.

Objecting to Gillespie's recommendations about what to do--if we're going to ignore freedom of association--on the grounds that it ignores freedom of association is likewise absurd.

P.S. If the government is going to redistribute my income by way of taxes and welfare, I'd prefer the government didn't discriminate against poor people on the basis race. Does that mean I deserve a "fuck you"--even if I'm against redistributing income by way of taxes and welfare?

[pan fried wylie]

the entire recommendation is predicated on us having a federal reserve over his objections.

And that recommendation is rhetorically necessary because otherwise he's "just an obstructionist without a useful alternative" (cf Obamacare).

[Brochettaward]

Nick isn't talking about enforcing a law on the books. He's talking about expanding them to cover others in clear violation of the NAP. Friedman recognizing a reality that wasn't changing and arguing for ways to mitigate harm is not the same at all.

Nick has very clearly sided with the expansion of accommodation laws to a group not previously covered.

[Trumps Disappointing Poll]

Forget it, it's Ken town.

[Ken Shultz]

Hi Tulpa?

[The Hyperbole]

Did Trump say that? Not wanting the state to force businesses to do thing one way doesn't automatically mean one wants the state to force businesses to do another thing.

[Ken Shultz]

AIR, Trump said that transgender people should use whatever bathroom they want.

I do not believe he said that businesses shouldn't be allowed to set their own policies.

It's the law in North Carolina that seems to be trying to impose the government on freedom of association there.

I see it like open carry/conceal carry polices. If a business wants to restrict open carry on their property, that should be up to them. If open carry is permitted on their property, then you should be able to open carry if you want.

That sounds like Nick's position on transgender bathroom use. That sounds like Trump's position.

The North Carolina law wants to force the government's opinion on everyone. It's the North Carolina law that's against freedom of association.

[Rhywun]

I'm wondering why we should give a damn about a hypothetical "leader of the free world's" position on M2F bathroom practices.

[Tom Bombadil]

Nobody said the search for peak derp was going to be pleasant.

[Brochettaward]

Trump's position is unintelligible. He attacked the North Carolina law, but I continue to see even posters here talk about how the North Carolina law in some way restricted private businesses. It didn't. That is simply not true.

Trump said leave things as they are. Only, this ignores the Charlotte law. The North Carolina state law was purely reactionary, and once again - did not place restrictions on businesses. They are free to decide for themselves.

[Ken Shultz]

Using the government to discriminate against transgender people in public facilities isn't exactly better.

[R C Dean]

How is NC discriminating in public facilities? They have said if you get you birth certificate changed, you can use the other bathroom. A decent compromise, in my book, for the zero sum game created out of thin air by SJWs.

[Tom Bombadil]

A birth certificate is a document which attests to certain facts at birth. Changing it years later doesn't sound right. Wouldn't an addendum be a better?

[Ken Shultz]

Can you see why some honest libertarians might object to government discrimination?

[Trumps Disappointing Poll]

If it were simply government discrimination, I could, but the position is too frequently that, instead of repealing special class protections, the so called honest Libertarians want expanded goverment intrusion, instead of taking the actual, honest position they claim to prefer.

[Brochettaward]

I'd take that position seriously if Nick weren't up there only attacking one law and arguing that if we are going to have public accommodation laws, we might as well go crazy and protect every special snowflake class. Which is essentially what he argued.

Nick hasn't even taken the pox on both your houses route. He's simply attacked one law, and mischaracterized in even doing that.

[OneOut]

Seems the pros have fallen under the spell of big tobacco funding.

[Suthenboy]

Somebody gets it.

[DOOMco]

Surprised there's not a story about that. Paper trail?

[Cdr Lytton]

The massive "anti" smoking slush funds, filled with money from the tobacco industry?

[LarryA]

It isn't so much Big Tobacco funding or bribery. It's the high tobacco sin taxes that will vaporize if people vape instead of smoke.

[LynchPin1477]

There is a Vape shop in town whose owners say they put their life savings into. They day they'll have to close because they can't afford the new regulations.

We'll hear some story about how people are stuck in unemployment and how trader kills jobs. No one will connect the dots.

People will die from smoking induced cancer, and people will blame cigarette companies. The FDA will be looked to for a *solution*.

I don't know why, but this shit has me more pissed off than usual. Psychopath regulators would rather see people die and lives destroyed than risk letting people make their own decisions. And I feel completely powerless to do anything to stop it

[Libertarian]

http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj.....lsLike.htm

Posted in 2009, just as Obama was taking office:

"What It Feels Like to Be a Libertarian"

Libertarians spend their lives accurately predicting the future effects of government policy. Their predictions are accurate because they are derived from Hayek's insights into the limitations of human knowledge...

If you'd like a taste of what it feels like to be a libertarian, try telling people that the incoming Obama Administration is advocating precisely those aspects of FDR's New Deal that prolonged the great depression for a decade; that propping up failed and failing ventures with government money in order to save jobs in the present merely shifts resources from relatively more to relatively less productive uses, impedes the corrective process, undermines the economic growth necessary for recovery, and increases unemployment in the long term; and that any "economic" stimulus package will inexorably be made to serve political rather than economic ends, and see what kind of reaction you get. And trust me, it won't feel any better five or ten years from now when everything you have just said has been proven true and Obama, like FDR, is nonetheless revered as the savior of the country.

[commodious spittoon]

I'll tell you. It feels bad. Being a libertarian means living with an almost unendurable level of frustration.

But that's what the snark is for, enduring the unendurable.

[Trigger Hippie]

Soothsaying at its finest.

[AlmightyJB]

Liars! It was all boooshes fault! /prog reply

[SQRLSY One]

Powerless? You can always buy a woodchipper, and keep it ready...

[Jerryskids]

This is where government needs to be run more like a business, with accountability. If you hire me to build a 400 square foot addition to your house and I show you what I intend to build, it's going to cost $32,000 and I promise I can have it done in time for your Fourth of July party, come July 4 and you've got a mess in the yard and I'm telling you what I'm actually building is a 12x12 toolshed and it's going to cost $75,000 and it won't be done until October, are you going to whine and complain that that's not what you were promised but still fork over the extra money and wait until October for your new toolshed or are you going to drag my ass to court, make me give back all the money you've given me plus some pain and suffering money and get the hell off your property?

Phony cost/benefit analysis and renewable sunset provisions are not enough. You want a new regulation or a new program? Tell us exactly what it's going to cost, what it's going to accomplish and have a hard target date for when we can see the results. Come the target date, no bullshit on why the program has cost twice what you said it would and only accomplished half of what you said it would and why you need more money and more time. You failed, take your shit and get the fuck out of here, we're done.

[Robert]

They'll stay in biz, they'll just sell nicotine-free only, which isn't affected by the regs. Customers will add their own nicotine if they want it, and many don't.

Or the industry will turn to nicotine extracted from another plant. Apparently they can't use synthetic, at least according to Jacob Sullum's analysis, that'd make it a new drug to FDA & state pharmacy laws.

[SIV]

Fun for the whole family

[AlmightyJB]

Your tour guide

First ride

[AlmightyJB]

Sf'ed the tour guide

[Trigger Hippie]

"Sf'ed the tour guide"

That phrase sent my mind to a dark place.

SF'ed the waitress
SF'ed the barista
SF'ed the cleaning lady
SF'ed a roll of Playdough

The possibilities are nearly endless.

[commodious spittoon]

When I first started reading the comments here I thought it meant "skullfucked."

[commodious spittoon]

Also, I talked like a fag and my shit was all retarded.

[AlmightyJB]

It's ok, lots of tards livin kick ass lives. My sister was a tard, now she's a pilot.

[Trigger Hippie]

Ha! No worries, man. During the first year of lurking here I was confused as to the relationship of SF and Warty. When I finally broke down and asked, I recieved a surprisingly mild round of teasing before it was explained to me.

[Trumps Disappointing Poll]

That they're sockpuppets?

[Trigger Hippie]

Minstrel and the Muse. There's a blog devoted to the topic.

[GILMORE?]

I got a perfect score on Innovation Inquest!

(!@*()# Inquest?...)

Fiber Optics was the only 'guess'.

[AlmightyJB]

Who needs three branches of government?

[sarcasmic]

Checks and balances prevent government from getting things done. And as we all should know, nothing at all gets done unless government is involved. So if we want to get things done, we need to get rid of these stupid checks and balances. That is why these executive agencies are such a good thing. They can issue rules with the power of law, with no accountability whatsoever, and no oversight either. They get things done.

[Suthenboy]

"Look Goddammit, we had a deal. We held up our end of the deal, now it is time for you to hold up yours! Put a stop to this vaping bullshit."

/ Tobacco industry to trial lawyers

[commodious spittoon]

Don Boudreaux pointed out that smoke cessation companies have perhaps an even greater interest in kicking the e-cig industry in the teeth.

[Libertarian]

I'm not in favor of force, but you know, if I COULD force the American people to do things, the first thing would be to require everyone to listen to a Boudreaux talk for just 10 minutes per week.

[commodious spittoon]

At a point it's not even aggression, it's goddamn self defense. And a pretty polite form of it. You want to do what with my time/savings/property/body/life? Super, but hey, why don't you sit in this chair and watch this short video while I refrain from beating you to death.

[Libertarian]

Good point. Instead of forcing 320 million Americans to watch, let's get 537 people in a certain profession to do it.

[pan fried wylie]

Hair Shampooers. Right?

[Rhywun]

But a lot of the e-cig companies ARE big tobacco now.

[commodious spittoon]

I'm still unconvinced this is a serious effort to regulate e-cigs rather than a gambit to tax them like tobacco. They'll settle with the e-cig industry, withdrawing the onerous regulations and instituting a relatively liberal licensing apparatus, but will leave in place the high tax rates.

[GILMORE?]

I'm still unconvinced this is a serious effort to regulate e-cigs rather than a gambit to tax them like tobacco.

I think that's right.

No one likes the idea of lost 'sin-tax' revenue while the "sinners" are all getting their jollies some other way. Either the tobacco companies or their regulators.

the industry seems clear on where things are headed

[Robert]

If that were so, why haven't they done it already with drugs? I mean all drugs? Or at least most of them? You know, like, you can go thru this process to have your product licensed (unbanned), or for half as much $ & much less time, pay us instead. For that matter, why not with guns? Or prostitution? Or car service? Or shampooing?

[Domestic Dissident]

If Ronnie was the Great Communicator and Slickie was the Great Prevaricator, Blocko is the Great Regulator.

It's especially funny in this case given that he's s closet smoker.

[Rhywun]

+1 choom gang

[GILMORE?]

It's especially funny in this case given that he's s closet smoker.

Is he still?

I guess there would be some national holiday if he announced he'd quit. I think its sort of telling how they ensure that there's almost no photos of Obama smoking... for his 'legacy'.

[Pompey]

+1 Doesn't Say Block Yomomma

[Trumps Disappointing Poll]

Blocko?

[You Sound Like a Prog (MJG)]

The horror. The horror. "'I've been silent': Harvard's Clinton backers face life on a pro-Bernie campus"

In April, Sam Koppelman, a 20-year-old government student at Harvard, wrote a letter to the New York Times lamenting that his support for Clinton meant that on campus he "might as well be Pat Buchanan".

The letter was a coming out of sorts for Koppelman, who told the Guardian that despite having written frequently about politics for his student newspaper until 2012, he stopped this year for fear that it would "cast me as an outsider, cast me as someone who's more conservative".

"The 2016 election I've been entirely silent, save for a few snarky tweets. And I think that's definitely emblematic that I'm trying to avoid these conversations," he said. He made a conscious decision ? until last month ? to not write about his support for Clinton.

So this guy was writing about politics until he was 16? OK...

Janet Ho, a 19-year-old freshman:

"Like: 'What do you mean why don't you want free tuition for everyone? It's not fair. Why don't you want equal pay for everyone? Why don't you want to tax the rich? What's wrong with you?' Like: you're evil."

It must be awful.

[Brochettaward]

It's only ok to ostracize conservatives, obviously. Attacking me for my wrongthink? I'm one of the good guys!

[Brochettaward]

In a setting where students are meant to be rebelling against the status quo, to be wearing berets and hanging Che Guevara posters on their walls,

Fight the power by giving it more!

[pan fried wylie]

Gorge the beast!

[Rhywun]

The internet is forever, kids.

[Steve G]

Janet Ho, a 19-year-old freshman

Bernie Bros before Hos

[annejfernandez]

Make 7500 bucks every month? Start doing online computer-based work through our website. I have been working from home for 4 years now and I love it. I don't have a boss standing over my shoulder and I make my own hours. The tips below are very informative and anyone currently working from home or planning to in the future could use this website.....

-------------------- http://www.richi8.com

[Trigger Warning]

hahahaha

The GOP nominee!

http://mobile.reuters.com/arti.....me=topNews

They are so fucked. Imagine years of him saying shit like this.

[Brochettaward]

His position on minimum wage is actually more nuanced. He says he supports a minimum wage hike, but that it should be left to the states. He wants to do away with the federal 'floor.'

[LarryA]

Only the minimum wage folks have to have a federal floor, otherwise the high-wage states' businesses flow to the smart states, and the workers follow.

Democrat worker: "I hate it here in Texas. Low minimum wage, right-to-work, no government health care, weak zoning laws."

Texan: "So why are you here?"

Democrat worker: "I found a job, and a house I can afford."

[LynchPin1477]

It's going to play well. I've been saying it for a while now - if he keeps this up and avoids putting his foot in his mouth, he has a real shot at winning

[lap83]

He's been saying stuff like that since the beginning. The one silver lining will be the salty tears of the Dems as their base dwindles away.

[lap83]

I am curious to see if it becomes more difficult for them to blame austerity for any bad economic consequences if a Republican president doesn't even pretend to be conservative

[AlmightyJB]

He's a finger in the air to see which way the wind blows politician just like Slick Willie was.

[AlmightyJB]

It would be presidency by poll results

[Hamster of Doom]

If you read Trump from the perspective of neatly categorized political camps, ie; this is conservative, that is libertarian, coherent policy looks like this, etc etc, well... Trump looks insane.

If you, instead, switch to the perspective of a salesman who sees a sudden opening in the marketplace, a niche of customers left unserved, and leaps in to grab his share of that market, Trump looks like the only person on the field who understands how the public really works.

[Jerryskids]

At what point do you admit that Hanlon's Razor has its limits?

People are attracted to the sorts of jobs that fit their interests. If you're a bully you're going to be attracted to law enforcement. If you're a pedophile, you're going to be attracted to a job working with little kids. If you are of the opinion that the public are stupid sheep who must be led for their own good into doing that which is good for them, and you know better than everyone else what's good for everyone else where are you going to look for a job? If you think human beings are a cancer on the Earth and humans would be much better off if they reverted to a pre-civilized state of hunter-gatherer even if that means 90% of the human race needs to die, where are you going to look for a job?

As bad money drives out good and one bad apple spoils the whole barrel, the bureaucrats working at these agencies that gave fair consideration to "reasonable" regulation, as the extremists moved in they either moved out rather than confront the unreasonableness or adopted more extreme values to fit in and go along. The agencies have all become more extreme, more hostile to the industries they are supposed to be regulating in the public interest. They don't want these industries to treat customers fairly, they want these industries to die. They don't want the public to be treated fairly, they want the public to stop wanting to be treated at all.

[commodious spittoon]

If you are of the opinion that the public are stupid sheep who must be led for their own good into doing that which is good for them, and you know better than everyone else what's good for everyone else where are you going to look for a job?

Cato hosted an event for an author whose thesis is essentially this. The managerial class really does believe in its moral and intellectual superiority, and as a result cannot entertain any objectivity or falsifiability in making conclusions. He has a few really interesting anecdotes from his years working in Congress and the White House highlighting the arrogance and pigheadedness inherent to administrators.

[AlmightyJB]

They believe that the ends justify the means. That's the problem with Hanlon's Razor. Malice requires intention of malice. So technically doing evil when you think you're doing good is not malice. But is being evil the same as ignorance? I suppose it could just be semantics.

[R C Dean]

By their fruits shall you know them. Evil is as evil does. Delusion is not an excuse.

[AlmightyJB]

They believe that the ends justify the means. That's the problem with Hanlon's Razor. Malice requires intention of malice. So technically doing evil when you think you're doing good is not malice. But is being evil the same as ignorance? I suppose it could just be semantics.

[Limpee Wiltstock]

Yeah, because pedophiles never become policemen.

[sarcasmic]

This is how government stimulates the economy and creates jobs.

[Ken Shultz]

"FDA Rules Could Cripple E-Cig Industry"

If these rules don't cripple the e-cigarette industry, they'll find others that will.

[This Machine Chips Fascists]

I noticed, listening to whoever the Big Brother mouthpiece was at the presser, that the goal shifted from "tobacco free future" to "nicotine free future". The nicotine in my vape juice comes from beets. Is a beet free America the new goal?

[AlmightyJB]

I hate beets. Making should have been smoking them instead of eating them.

[AlmightyJB]

Maybe. Stupid phone

[commodious spittoon]

Even in borscht?

[This Machine Chips Fascists]

My mistake, the nicotine comes from tomato plants. I can get behind a beet free nation, tomatoes is another story.

[Robert]

Seriously, it does come from tomato? Then it doesn't come under the regs, not being tobacco-derived.

[Robert]

In fact, as long as people are putting it into their mouths, it's a dietary supplement, so it's not a drug, either. I know a company that's been developing vitamins for delivery by that means.

[mfckr]

Proglodytes, SJWs, and nanny-staters will get more brazen and overbearing as the election cycle plays out?esp. given the # of USSC seats soon to retire. I figure they're looking forward to using the expanded powers of judicial subjugation afterwards to torture everyone indefinitely with their own kulturkampf shit.

[jeseniasspringer]

Im making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do,

============== http://www.worknow88.com

[MadeleineBall]

Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last friday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 6-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $97 per hour. I work through this link,
Go to tech tab for work detail.========== http://www.earnmore9.com

[andythomas12326]

Start making more money weekly. This is a valuable part time work for everyone. The best part work from comfort of your house and get paid from $100-$2k each week.Start today and have your first cash at the end of this week. For more details Check this link??

Clik This Link inYour Browser
? ? ? ? http://www.MaxPost30.com

[Seamus]

Fuck tha FDA, yo.

[Karinka]

Are you single tonight? A lot of beautiful girls waiting for you to http://goo.gl/pI9ucn
The best adult dating site!