State of Jefferson Supporters Seek Independence from California

Will Northern California become the nation's 51st state?

On Wednesday, supporters of a plan to create the nation's 51st state submitted a declaration of separation to the California Secretary of State and State Legislature. Rallying in front of the State Capitol, over 200 citizens representing 21 counties voiced their frustration over what they precieve as a lack of representation that is ruining their way of life.  As the Sacramento Bee explains:

Jefferson proponents contend that their rural areas lack adequate representation in state government, which has led to over-regulation and environmental policies that decimated their regional economies, particularly the logging and mining industries that historically supported them. Their seal bears an XX, signifying that they have been double-crossed by state government…

Reason TV covered the movement behind the State of Jefferson back in 2014.

Comments

[Ken Shultz]

Progressives want the military to hit them with drone strikes because they're white.

[Hyperion]

what's the demographics of SF? I mean what percentage of the population is white? *Googles stuff...* Hmm, looks like the combined white/asian population of SF is around 75% and blacks only 5%. Nuke it from space!

[Ken Shultz]

Progressives want the military to hit them with drone strikes because they're white.

[Slammer]

Hit 'em twice!

[Francisco d'Anconia]

You kno your handle is the nickname for an air to air missile?

[Slammer]

Haha no I didnt

[Francisco d'Anconia]

AIM-120 AMRAAM

Pilots call it "the Slammer"

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

I've always been partial to the Crowd Pleaser.

The military has a sick sense of humor. I like it.

[Timon 19]

Is that a Navy thing? I've worked with former Weapons School instructors and never heard them or any of the other Viper and Eagle drivers refer to the 120 by that name.

Now, there's a variant of the Standoff Land Attack Missile called the SLAM-ER because of the extended range feature...

[Francisco d'Anconia]

No, it was an Air Force thing, but probably both. Particularly back when it was new.

The third combat use of the AMRAAM was in 1994, when a Republika Srpska Air Force J-21 Jastreb aircraft was shot down by a USAF F-16C that was patrolling the UN-imposed no-fly zone over Bosnia. In that engagement, at least three other Serbian aircraft were shot down by USAF F-16C fighters using AIM-9 missiles (see Banja Luka incident for more details). At that point, three launches in combat had resulted in three kills, resulting in the AMRAAM's being informally named "slammer" in the second half of the 1990s.

Used here again.

It may be one of those names that's fallen out of favor over the years. Been awhile since I was part of that world.

[DenverJ]

Will Northern California become the nation's 51st state?

No

[brady949]

Spoilers...

[Cyto]

Well, they have a better chance than the Conch Republic, I'll give them that.....

[Brian]

Sorry, but "screwed by democracy" doesn't qualify you for protected minority status.

[R C Dean]

Yeah, had to say 99% of the population is a minority.

[Bill Dalasio]

It doesn't sound to me like they want protected minority status. They simply want to go their own way with a government that reflects their concerns and interests,

If a democracy is willing to screw some of its citizens, I see no reason why those citizens should be expected to remain loyal to the democracy.

[Brian]

This is definitely more evidence that the democracy/social contract bull shit is just that.

What the disgruntled group request a chance to establish their own democracy.

What the powers that be tell them to go pound sand, while simultaneously ostensibly justifying their power to do so based on democracy and the consent of the governed.

Apparently, the Declaration of Independence was the only time any group of people rejected their social contract and created their own, including the past and all future time, as far as the US is concerned.

How convenient.

[Brian]

*Watch

[R C Dean]

Classic. I think it was Erdogan who said something like "Democracy is bus ride. When you get to your stop, you get off."

[Long Woodchippers]

When the native tribes wanted their own state in part of what's now Alabama and Georgia, they were relocated by force to Oklahoma. "Here's your state!"

[Rational Exhuberance]

How in the world does "self-determination" amount to "protected minority status"?

[sarcasmic]

Will Northern California become the nation's 51st state?

Haaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah right.

[Suthenboy]

How many here are hunters?

If you bag a deer and sit and watch the carcass, within five minutes as the body begins to cool, the ticks and fleas start coming off of it. If you sit close they will swarm straight to you.

[R C Dean]

I think I got to a deer within five minutes maybe once. Gun kills were generally a bit of a walk, and bow kills always required tracking. Plus I learned the hard way to wait 15 minutes at least before going after the deer to let 'em get good and dead.

Now I'm glad.

[Adans smith]

Never had to walk far for a gun kill.Here in SE Ohio,shotgun slugs only..My last two kills under 10 yards and dropped right there.I killed one at 90 yards and one at 65 yards and they didn't go far either.20 gauge rottweiler magnum 1 ounce. slug.I mostly hunt birds and waterfowl.Easier to carry out.

[R C Dean]

Well, in my case it may be that the ticks and fleas were fleeing me for the dead deer, so . . . .

[Suthenboy]

While what I said is true, it was a metaphor.

If the people who are tired of overtaxation and over regulation break off from California and form their own state the parasites will just swarm over the border. They have already done it to Colorado and are working on Texas. When socialists run out of other people's money they just look for more other people.

Also, RC, watch out. Those damned ticks crawl a few feet from the carcass and climb up on grass and twigs to wait for scavengers and you.

[Ted S.]

Meh. I live in Lyme Disease country and don't have much problem with ticks. Take a shower after being out in the woods and run your hands all over your body carefully.

All that crap about only wearing light colors and long sleeves or even tucking your pant legs into your socks is panic-mongering.

[Ken Shultz]

In all seriousness, they should split California in two. Northern California's and Southern California's economic interests are so different from each other, keeping them together is practically cruel and unusual punishment. They won't do that because the division of water always gets in the way--and because NorCal sees their ability to inflict regulation, especially environmental regulation, on SoCal as a good thing. Why would they vote to give up something they like?

Incidentally, the tension we're seeing on environmental regulation isn't just limited to north and south in California--it's coastal California vs. inland California pretty much all the way down the state. That environmental interests in Santa Barbara can impose themselves on Bakersfield may seem absurd to miners and farmers in Bakersfield, but to environmentalists in Santa Barbara, that's half the point of government. Why would they willingly give that up?

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Ummm, we're still going to need water...

[Ken Shultz]

Not sure what you're drivin' at there. Are you saying that NorCal or coastal Cal will let their captives go because the environmentalists control the water?

The people who control the water are the ones that have to agree to let my people go. And that's the environmentalists. Not even the huge Ag industry (in NorCal/Inland Cal) could beat the environmentalists over water. Why would the environmentalists give us the water we need to go? They want to use the government to impose themselves on the rest of us.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

That's what I'm getting at. They're not going to give up the water. Any split would have to include a modification of the Colorado River Compact.

[OneOut]

Does NoCal not have water sources or any possibilities that could be developed

[Suell]

They have a ton of water and grass up there.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Water is in the north, most population is in the south. The single largest consumer of electricity in this state is the pumps that bring the water south.

[Suell]

They just got that desal plant going in San Diego. Maybe a few more of those (yeah I know, fat chance). They could sell us water, weed, and timber.

[Ken Shultz]

There was a WSJ article recently about how the state hasn't spent any money on new water infrastructure in 30 years. I'll dig it up.

We've added some 15 million people since 1980 and haven't significantly upgraded the water infrastructure since.

Raising dams is one thing The other issue is that because so much of our infrastructure is designed by government, it's meant primarily to prevent catastrophes--flooding. All that water that comes by way of storms, our infrastructure is set up to take that valuable commodity out of the streets and send it out to the ocean as quickly as possible. We should be building infrastructure to capture and use that water--not squander it as quickly as possible. A profit seeking company wouldn't have designed it that way.

Should the government be involved in water infrastructure at all?

Beyond the scope of military defense, police against crime, and a court system, I'm going to say that water distribution may be the next thing in line for legitimate functions of government. Certainly, historically speaking, a government creating a means of water distribution seems to have been the key ingredient of the emergence of every civilization. Regardless, just because there's no way a private company can do it right now doesn't necessarily mean that whatever it is shouldn't be done.

[Ken Shultz]

Here it is:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ca.....1451002429

[Suell]

Yeah, it is absolute insanity that in my lifetime we have had a population doubling and no added water storage capacity. Yet we somehow have enough money to throw down over 100 billion on a medium speed choo choo train. I

believe SD was also in the process of implementing such a water capture project.

[Bodica Slayer of Woodchip]

Jesus, they ban plastic bags and still they want more.

[Notorious UGCC]

It sounds like the Northern Californians have a case.

Strictly speaking, that case has to be persuasive to (a) the California state legislature and (b) Congress.

So long as Congress has so many Republicans, they may be amenable to the idea, but I'm drawing a blank on how the California legislature could be induced to approve.

Brainstorming here...maybe some sort of bribe? The Northern Californians could commit to giving the South a large subsidy for a certain number of years, to compensate for the loss of so many taxpayers.

Or how about this...show the people in Sacramento how, without the votes of Northern Californians holding it back, Southern California will be able to turn itself into a true People's Republic.

[Notorious UGCC]

But I can't see how a Democratic legislature in Sacramento would agree to risk two extra Republicans in the Senate.

[brady949]

I think you misunderstand a little. This isn't all of Northern California. It's mostly rural counties in the far north.

[Suell]

It's funny. Mention this idea to a proggie and they generally say that Northern California (talking here about real far north) is a welfare suck on the rest of the state. But for some reason they can't have their own state for their own good.

[Tommy_Grand]

Same with the progressive view on Texas secession.

"OMG, Texans just are so awful. I can't even..."

"Assuming that's true, should congress give Texas permission to leave the union?"

"What? Are you crazy? Texas has no right to leave. Have u never heard of the civil war? Newsflash: it's 2016" etc

[Cytotoxic]

These "people" just can't stand the thought of someone not wanting to be a part of Their Awesome Project where they use force to make everyone better off, let alone someone leaving it.

[Bill Dalasio]

I wish these folks all the luck in the world. It seems to me like their wishes are pretty reasonable, all in all. That said, they're going to need all the luck in the world. As much as southern California treats them with contempt and has little or no interest in addressing their interests or concerns, they're going to fight tooth and nail against letting the locals off their sinking ship.

[Notorious UGCC]

Wait, I just thought of this one - how about a deal where we get a State of Jefferson (presumably 2 Reublican senators) and also admit the District of Columbia as a state (2 Democratic Senators)? It will all come out in the wash - the "civil rights" people will support it because DC statehood is supposedly a big deal to them, so the people in Sacramento will be pressured to take one for the team and let their northern people go.

[Notorious UGCC]

Imagine the protests against California Democrats for "obstructing statehood for America's first all-black state"!

[Notorious UGCC]

majority black - I got carried away.

Anyway, DC is an anamoly anyway - it was designed to the feds could have an enclave of their own without worrying about having the capital in a state being threatened by the state's militia and mobs.

That's a laughable concern now, so really, why not recognize full voting rights (in Congress) for DC?

[Scarecrow & WoodChipper Repair]

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States.

So sayeth the US Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 17.

It would take an amendment to change that.

[Notorious UGCC]

Congress renounced part of the District of Columbia in the early 19th century - the part they'd acquired from Virginia, they gave back to Virginia.

The statehood people would have Congress make a state out of most of the current DC, leaving a slice of territory around the White House and the Capitol where Congress would continue to have exclusive jurisdiction.

As long as its *under* ten miles square, it doesn't have to take in any particular territory.

[Long Woodchippers]

give the rest back to Maryland, just as Arlington was returned to Virginia

[Cdr Lytton]

OT: NRA must be loving moron-in-chief's "townhall" and idiotic gun control pronouncements. I took the plunge and signed up for the discounted life membership promo yesterday.

[Jordan]

I signed up after the ban boners sprang up to full mast after the Sandy Hook shooting.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

I've been meaning to that, just so I can show the card to people and upset them.

[OneOut]

i've read where a lot of purist say that the NRA is more of a Chamber of Commerce or ARP style group that puts their interest ahead of the membership.

They bragged about some other pro gun loby group that is more grassroots.

I don't know any more than that about it but it might be something you want to look into .

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

There are certainly better organizations. The NRA card is the one that will make people the most upset at parties.

Lefties see them lurking in the shadows everywhere. Kind of like the Koch bros, in a way.

[Scarecrow & WoodChipper Repair]

Join the NRA to piss off proggies, since the other, more effective, organizations aren't nearly as well known.

Join the other organizations to fund actual court cases; the NRA handles the legislative side pretty well. The Second Amendment Foundation does great work, but they also squander far more money begging for money than you send them. I finally got them to stop calling me, but I still get 2-3 begging junk mails every month.

[Cdr Lytton]

Regular life rate increases from $1000 to $1500 in March. Current promo is $500 and can either pay lump sum or $25/quarter.

There's a lot I don't like about NRA but they're mostly good on opposing gun control these days.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Yeah, I've free ridden long enough. I wish I had done it before the 31st, though.

[Akira]

"There's a lot I don't like about NRA but they're mostly good on opposing gun control these days."

I've been torn up about my NRA membership for quite a while now. Right before Sandy Hook, I decided that I was going to quit and join either GOA or SAF, but then (obviously) the massacre happened, putting gun rights in serious jeopardy, and I figured it wasn't the best time to be quitting on them. I'm still a member, but I'm not sure if I will be forever.

On one hand: they are certainly not the perfect gun rights group. Most of their rhetoric is downright stupid, and it only gives the progs ammo with which to attack them. Wayne LaPierre - while being a staunch gun rights advocate - has a long history of saying stupid, inflammatory things that just expose the entire gun rights movement to attack. One example is his statements about violent video games after Sandy Hook. Sure, it was just one brief comment, but he should have foreseen that that comment would be a lightning rod. From the discussions on gun forums, I know that I'm not the only one who isn't satisfied with LaPierre's leadership. I'm also not a big fan of how they endorsed Romney, who is not the gun rights crusader that they made him out to be.

On the other hand... The fact remains that the NRA gets shit done. Many politicians are afraid to piss them off. I can't help but think that our gun rights would be in sorry shape without the clout that they wield in Washington.

[Mr Lizard]

They sent me a big sticker that I put on my thoroughly battered hard hat. They're one of the few political organizations that don't discriminate against reptiles.

[Aloysious]

See, I pictured you more like this.

[Ayn Random Variation]

Doesn't that just put a target on you? Isn't it better to lay low in this lawless-Executive climate?

[OneOut]

Perhaps they could figure out a way to become ammajor problem for SoCal, maybe a net tax loss.

Otherwwise they may have to build them a really fast train or sumpin.

[american socialist]

Northern California gets more tax money from the state than it pays in taxes. It would be a major loss in funding for Tea Party groups who hate taxes and a wash for the rest of us who don't think we're dagny Taggart.

[Suell]

"We can't let them have their own state because then they wouldn't have all of the tax money that we give them!"

[american socialist]

Well, yeah, I don't live there so they would have to deal with their own crybaby Tea Partiers. If I was employed by the state or ran a shop reliant upon the people who were employed by the state, I might ask if all this pride about not being a San Francisco-ite would be worth what it would cost me once I lose my job. I don't know-- maybe it would be worth it.

[Bill Dalasio]

Well, then that's just a terrific reason for people in southern to favor the secession of the northern counties. I'm glad to see you're on board with their independence.

[american socialist]

Like I said, I have my ambivalence but out of concern for my relatively poorer man in Yreka I'd say its a bad idea.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Yet another unforced error. You don't live in CA, asshole.

[Suell]

"It's for their own good. They just don't know any better."

[Sevo]

Yeah, that poor guy in Yreka might not vote the 'right' way.
Hey, commie-kid! Go to Yreka and ask what happened to their economy!

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Sevo, it's a Tulpa sock.

[Suell]

He has to be a government employee to have the amount of free time it would take to maintain so many different sock handles. The mind boggles.

[Cytotoxic]

Do you have the post where he slipped?

[Ceci n'est pas un woodchipper]

That paternalism's mighty thoughtful of you.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Northern California gets more tax money from the state than it pays in taxes. It would be a major loss in funding for Tea Party groups who hate taxes and a wash for the rest of us who don't think we're dagny Taggart.

Then you have no problem with this idea?

[Tommy_Grand]

I'm pretty sure he explained that the millions of inbred people who want their own state are just too stupid to understand that independence would be terrible for them, so he is against it because he loves the poor deeply and he knows what's best for them

[simplybe]

What the people in California ultimately want is to divide into six States so they stack Congress and force their Progressive bull down the rest of America's throat.

[Cytotoxic]

"Northern California gets more tax money from the state than it pays in taxes. "

This may have something to due with the crushing environmental laws passed in SoCal.

[thrakkorzog]

No. The answer to all headlines with question marks is no.

Reads actual article. The answer is "haha, nope." California farmers have some legit complaints, that doesn't mean that that anybody in the California legislature can be bothered to pretend to give a damn.

[Vampire]

Why bother to create another coercive state? At the start of the US, implemented was a new government and constitution that was supposed to "secure the blessings of liberty". The result of this experiment has been a disaster. Individuals have been continually robbed of their liberty and property, through a violent coercive monopoly, and the agents and bureaucrats that surround them.

I wish them well, and hopefully all goes peacefully. But more times than not, the state will act violently when it's power is challenged.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The result of this experiment has been a disaster.

Really? A disaster? The most prosperous nation to ever exist, a disaster? If anything, it's substantiated the blessings of liberty and more recently highlighted the repercussions of turning our backs on it.

It is the nature of government to destroy. We've held our government in check for a good long run. Next time, we'll do it better. But as you point out, nothing lasts forever.

[Cytotoxic]

Competition between states has created a lot more good than anarchy ever could.

[Bramblyspam]

I just can't get over that seal. Do you know who else sported a double cross?

[OneOut]

Malcom XX

[GILMORE?]

Edward G. Robinson?

[DenverJ]

Saint Stephen?

[Slammer]

+1 wherever he goes the people all complain

[GILMORE?]

Well played

You deserve a beer to go with that

[DenverJ]

Joseph Hazelwood?

[GILMORE?]

C?

[GILMORE?]

Tim Hardaway?

[american socialist]

I'm not for it as obviously it will produce another set of reactionary assholes who will make it slightly easier for us to invade Syria or indulge in the kind of facile homophobia present in places like Redding. That said, I'd just like to see how these tea party crybabies up north would fare if they didn't have tons of state money coming from Los Angeles and San Francisco to keep their people employed in state-run parks or keep their roads smooth once the logging trunks have their go at them.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Hi Tulpa. The game is over. You outed yourself last night.

[american socialist]

I did? How? My life is an open book of Stalin regalia.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Exactly. You overdid it.

I've known it was you for over a month, but you made an unforced error last night.

[Suell]

Ha! The typical proggie response to this idea; "we can't let them have their own state, for their own good."

[Hyperion]

we can't let them have their own state, for their own good because we're all in this together and your stuff is mine too!

[Frankjasper1]

What? Coherence please. Oh and i remember the other thread where you said you only had 20K saved up at age of 62...have to ask why others should be forced to pay for you being stupid with your own money? Spoken like a true socialist though!

[american socialist]

It's purely hypothetical. I'm fortunate in that I attended two pretty snappy state schools, got an advanced degree, and a pretty high paying/low stress job that I can probably ride right into retirement. I was using it as a hypothetical because the average 401k balance is only 92k and for folks who have less than that it's going to be a hard road without SOcial Security. Thanks for your concern though!

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

"Purely Hypothetical"
That's what you call sock puppeting?

First of all, I wouldn't call being a high school teacher a "high paying job".

Secondly, you keep getting bounced around, and you need 3 continuous years for retirement to vest. I believe you're familiar with the concept; it's called "tenure".

[american socialist]

Suffice it to say I think you have me confused with someone else.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

No, I don't. Unforced error. Game over.

[AlmightyJB]

Average 401k balance for all age groups? Because that doesn't mean anything.

[l0b0t]

He's talking out his ass. My 40k balance is mostly Orks and Imperial Guard but I could probably put together a decent Astartes force out of the bits-box.

[Akira]

"you only had 20K saved up at age of 62"

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on... AmSoc is 62 years old??

Good god. I thought he was just a 20-something who had just stumbled across Karl Marx and thought it was like, totally cool how he was like, sticking it to The Man and stuff, but goddamn... If someone has not gotten a halfway decent grip on reality by the age of 62, that's a special case. That's pathological.

[american socialist]

"Reactionary assholes"= "reactionary assholes in the Senate". Kind of like Idaho... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Crapo

[GILMORE?]

WHYCOME THEIR AINT NO REPERSENTATIONS

Honestly i think between the Oregon 'militiamen' and the State of Jeffersonites, now is a very good time to re-read Vineland by Thomas Pynchon

It opens with a man preparing himself for his annual "Throw self through window in front of TV cameras" because it guarantees the renewal of his state-funded disability payments. The book is partly about how the 1960s crazy california hippies/revolutionaries all ended up becoming agents (and/or dependents) of the state in the 1980s.

[Bill Dalasio]

Do you think they have representation in the California legislature in any but the most nominal sense? They have three reps. Los Angeles alone has 35. So, great, they have the opportunity to be outvoted at every turn. Do you think that's a good thing?

[GILMORE?]

No. You seem to be mistaking my mockery of the mockery of the yokels as the genuine article.

I'm highly sympathetic to rural constituencies being over-run by Urban-dominated political powers. I think big-city politics are a cancer.

that said, i don't think north california is going to achieve statehood, or that if it did, that it would be a libertarian utopia.

[OneOut]

OT Seems the Obama Administration has been hiding the real number of refugee linked terror arrests from Congress and the people.

http://goo.gl/lLMzEL

Investigations have revealed that, hold on to your seat now, some of these people are lieing on their refugee applications ! I know. I'm just as shocked as you are.

Do the people responsible for this really think that it is a good policy for the country to import an additional 170,000 of thse Lovers of the Religion of Peasce in 2016 alone ?.

How could this benefit them personally

[PapayaSF]

This is all going to come out this year and help elect Trump.

[Cytotoxic]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

[Francisco d'Anconia]

One Out...

...the new Eddie.

[Acosmist]

Get. Help. Seriously. We don't need you pulling a Sandy Hook.

[Cytotoxic]

Any credible non-nutjob sources?

"Do the people responsible for this really think that it is a good policy for the country to import an additional 170,000 of thse Lovers of the Religion of Peasce in 2016 alone ?."

I do.

[Fist of Etiquette]

One more X on that flag and they can be the great state of Vin Diesel. Fun fact: Vin Diesel's real name is Dirk Piston. True story.

[Rhywun]

bow-chicka-bow-bow

[Suell]

If you go up far north you see a whole bunch of State of Jefferson flags and decals. I like the idea of them getting their own state. One thing (of many) that stands in their way is breaking up the symmetry of fifty states. If PR ever became a state I think these guys would have a much better chance. It sounds silly, but 52 would be an easier sell than 51. I'd like to have another (lower taxed and less regulated) option to get the fuck out of this clusterfuck of a state when I finally can or need to.

[Notorious UGCC]

Like I say, Jefferson would have to be balanced out with a Democratic state, I said DC, you say PR, either way they could then lean on the California legislature.

Or a 4-state deal - Jefferson and 1 other carve-out from a Dem state in exchange for DC and PR.

[Artifex]

Like I say, Jefferson would have to be balanced out with a Democratic state

Of course, this is the compromise from the earliest part of the Republic. If they admit a free state they need to balance it with a slave state.

[GILMORE?]

WHYCOME THEY ALWAYS STEALING MAH JOKES

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

May as well include USVI and Guam. Taxation without representation and all that...

[Long Woodchippers]

maybe we can get to 56 before Obama leaves office

[Eric L]

"It sounds silly, but 52 would be an easier sell than 51." I don't know, it might be fun with 51; the US flag could be long and narrow with 3 rows of 17 stars each.

[Marty Comanche]

More likely 6 rows alternating between 8 and 9 stars.

[Brian]

Ok, before I decide whether the people who support Jefferson State are noble idealists or terrorist scum, I need to know whether I'll be able to smoke a joint and get my girlfriend an abortion there.

[american socialist]

I want to know what the tax rate will be on the top 0.1%. That's the only thing that's important to me.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Is this the only way you can get human beings to interact with you on a Saturday morning, Tulpa?

Try going out to coffee or something.

[american socialist]

What if I'm just happy interacting with you?

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Somehow, I don't doubt that.

[american socialist]

That's a bad thing? My best bud Gilmore said I'm here because I have a *psychotic* (teehee) desire for self-abuse-- apparently because I don't think that Obama is just like the worst.

[AlmightyJB]

They should make it really high so all the rich people move and then they get nothing. Socialist Economics. That's why world domination and oppression are it's inevitable tenents. It doesn't work if people are free. However it still doesn't work when their not free.

[american socialist]

I'm really not sure if there are any people in Yreka or Redding that make enough to be in the top 0.1%. Socialists in San Francisco? Yes.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I'm really not sure if there are any people in Yreka or Redding that make enough to be in the top 0.1%.

Because Jefferson would never be wealthy once shed of the regulation imposed by the south...

Wealth is never created...only stolen.

Christ you're an idiot.

[dinkster]

No one needs six choices for deodorant.

[Long Woodchippers]

even if the richest guy only makes $50k, he's still the top 1%

[Medical Physics Guy]

OT I was gifted the book "Snow Crash" by Neal Stevenson. There is quite the anti-capitalist rant on page two but the prose style looks sharp. Should I press on or is this whole book going to suck?

[R C Dean]

Its a crapload of fun, and a seminal sci-fi book in many ways. You will recognize a number of H & R memes as you read it, including a delightfully named nuclear-powered minigun.

[thrakkorzog]

You should definitely press on, it's not particularly anti-capitalist, just a weirdly dystopian cyber-punk future.

[AlmightyJB]

My wife lives that stuff. I'll get that for her for Mothers Day.

[PapayaSF]

It's pretty good, though personally I preferred Cryptonomicon.

[Brett L]

If Neuromancer created the genre of cyberpunk, Snow Crash is the archetype.

[ant1sthenes]

Press on. Snow Crash should be required reading for libertarian nerds.

[Gray Ghost]

It's awesome, MPG. Let us know what you think of gov't service after you're done with the book.

[Rhywun]

Agreed. It is a must-read. So is Diamond Age.

[AlmightyJB]

Flag needs more Stars & Bars

[DenverJ]

They only ad stars for new started, not bars. You know who else liked bars, especially beer halls?

[Suthenboy]

I can't see the FedGov allowing this to happen. It would push the Dem/Rep balance in favor of the R's.

[GILMORE?]

see above for the counter-revolutionaries plotting to use their slave-states as a political counter-balance

[Ken Shultz]

Anyone read Ecotopia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia

One of the things it gets wrong is that in Ecotopia, the separatists are environmentalists, but the State of Jefferson movement seems to be about escaping environmental regulation.

I suspect these separatist movements are a Rorschach test, where people who support separatism see what they want to see. I suspect environmentalists are more drawn to larger Cascadia, rather than the State of Jefferson. In other words, there are probably a lot of people who support these separatist movements for diametrically opposed reasons.

The environmentalist says, "The U.S. Forest Service is working for the lumber industry--let's separate".

The logger says, "The U.S. Forest Service has destroyed the logging industry--let's separate."

And they both yell in unison, "Cascadia Now!"

[PapayaSF]

Yes, I did read it, way back then.

[Chinny Chin Chin]

How many states DON'T have a grievance about under-represented rural areas? I can think of only a couple western states, and maybe Rhode Island. Other than that, everyone in the sticks complains that the Big City dominated government ignores them.

If Jefferson ever happened, there would be many other wannabe states lining up.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

GAME OVER

[AlmightyJB]

And then the major Metro areas in Jefferson consolidate money and power whuch attracts corrupt theiving top men with "good intentions" to office and the circle of politics continues.

[Bill Dalasio]

Honestly, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It might prove a useful check on the democratic excesses of urban dominated states.

[chemjeff]

Yeah I don't know what would be so terrible about having a multitude of states.

[Richard]

I live in rural Vermont and I'd love to get out from under the thumb of those assholes in Burlington.

[coloraDOOM]

I left about year and a half ago. Sticks of Addison County. You more middle or NEK?

[straffinrun]

OT: [anything other than this troll infested swamp]

[AlmightyJB]

Here's a chance to pay extra taxes

http://nbc4i.com/2016/01/08/po.....0-million/

[AlmightyJB]

Here's a chance to dance with a birthday princess.

http://m.eonline.com/news/7292.....he-duchess

[straffinrun]

RILF

[AlmightyJB]

Dangerous new product testers? Out: mice In: reporters

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/07/.....f=obinsite

[Slammer]

World's most expensive pocket watch

[straffinrun]

QILF

[GILMORE?]

I'd still prefer a Patek at half-price.

[lap83]

I don't know anything about watches, but that looks awesome

[Ken Shultz]

Angela Merkel wants tougher laws on deporting migrants in the wake of Rapey New Year.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/an.....1452347989

[straffinrun]

KILF

[Slammer]

Fuck the Facts

[Slammer]

V(ocalist) ILF. Yeah it's a chick

[straffinrun]

Prize given for best mismatch of video and music. Enjoyed that.

[Notorious UGCC]

Agile will be mad when he finds out this band stole his stash.

[Sevo]

american socialist|1.9.16 @ 11:46AM|#
"...If I was employed by the state or ran a shop reliant upon the people who were employed by the state, I might ask if all this pride about not being a San Francisco-ite would be worth what it would cost me once I lose my job. I don't know-- maybe it would be worth it."

This past summer, I ended up in Yreka for a couple of days. Nice town, lovely area, tanked economy. The Feds and the state gov't screwed the extraction industries, and as a result the economy does take more benefits than it pays in taxes.
Did you get that, slime-bag? The gov't screwed them out of their livelihoods and now claims the people there couldn't live without the welfare provided by the assholes that caused the problem.

[straffinrun]

They break your leg and you're supposed to be grateful when they give you a crutch.

[Suell]

That economic destruction is one of their main complaints, and I would say it is a valid one. I used to go up far north more often. With little kids now it is a bit harder. We did go camping up in Lassen last year. It is absolutely gorgeous up there, but yes, the towns are really hurting for an economy.

[chemjeff]

The most insulting part about this entire discussion is the suggestion from the proggies that they won't let local areas decide what is best for them, *even though* such decentralization of power would be an economic *benefit* to them.

I think it goes to show that for the proggies, they value power over others more than they value money in their own pocket. You can't pay them enough to give up power over others.

[Cytotoxic]

To be fair I don't necessarily like letting 'local areas' decide what's best for 'them'. If you do that too much you get Sheriff Arpaio.

[lap83]

They should let you decide. They can worry about the petty details, like the difference between Kentucky and Kansas. You'll worry about big picture stuff.

[Cytotoxic]

Best comment in the section. I should really be president.

Cytotoxic 2016: mark the ballot with your tears!

Cytotoxic 2016: you're already dead inside so what difference, at this point, does it make?

[lap83]

OK, those are pretty good

[chemjeff]

Yes, and?

From what I can tell, Sheriff Arpaio is good at walking the line between legal vs. illegal treatment of prisoners. Mostly it seems he just makes prisoners uncomfortable, and I don't have a big problem with that. The times he did cross the line, he got smacked down by the courts, which is what should happen.

And the people of Phoenix obviously want this guy as their sheriff, full well knowing what his methods and tactics are. If they want a grandstanding borderline sheriff, as long has he does not genuinely violate anyone's rights, why should any of us tell them otherwise?

[Cytotoxic]

Arpaio is a thug cunt who's past includes chaining a pregnant woman to a gurney, harassing political opponents, and turning his county into a police state. Violating peoples' rights is his MO. Oh, and crime has increased during his time as sheriff.

The people of Phoenix clearly lack the responsibility and sense needed to choose their own sheriff. This is another position that just shouldn't be elected.

[chemjeff]

"The people of Phoenix clearly lack the responsibility and sense needed to choose their own sheriff. This is another position that just shouldn't be elected."

So, the sheriff should be appointed by Top Men?

[Cytotoxic]

Maybe. Maybe his election should just be vetoed by some Top Men.

[chemjeff]

On what basis?

[Long Woodchippers]

Insufficient Progressive Zeal

[Bill Dalasio]

And, of course, there's no chance those Top Men might ever decide to invalidate the election of someone you like, is there?

[chemjeff]

And just to be clear, I'm not defending everything that Arpaio has done. Sure he's done some terrible things. But the people of Phoenix nevertheless want that. I probably wouldn't vote for him if I lived in Phoenix, but I don't live in Phoenix so I don't know why my opinion should matter.

[Cytotoxic]

'The People of Phoenix' is a collectivist construct.

[DenverJ]

he just makes prisoners uncomfortable, and I don't have a big problem with thatA large percentage of people in jail have not been convicted of any crime. They are awaiting trial.
Punishing them before they have gone to trial by making them "uncomfortable" includes such things as humiliation, living in a tent in the desert with no AC, little things like that.
And you're OK with that?

[DenverJ]

Oops forgot the closing brackets

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|1.9.16 @ 1:08PM|#
"To be fair I don't necessarily like letting 'local areas' decide what's best for 'them'. If you do that too much you get Sheriff Arpaio."

You much prefer Joseph Stalin or Mao, right? I mean, Sheriff Joe has murdered many more than either of them!

[Cytotoxic]

...what?

[Bill Dalasio]

But, is that a function of decentralization, or simply of good old-fashioned demagoguery? As execrable as "Sheriff Joe" is, you can easily enough stay away from his jurisdiction. On the other hand, what would you be able to do about Attorney General Arpaio?

[Cytotoxic]

I believe in a central state that holds the lower ones in check. The FedGov had the right and responsibility to end Jim Crow just as it should end the reign of Arpaio.

[chemjeff]

"I believe in a central state that holds the lower ones in check."

But that is the contradiction of the central state. A central state that is powerful enough to "hold the lower ones in check" is also powerful enough to impose its will on the "lower ones" even when they are not doing anything wrong.

The central state is not God, it is not even a fair referee.

[Bill Dalasio]

But, that misses the point, doesn't it? What holds the central state in check once you give it power over state and local government?

[Cytotoxic]

A constitution and other central states that it's competing with for capital and people.

I'm not offering perfection but I am against this idea of letting the local/state-levels of government do as they wish. Clearly a bad idea. Death to democracy.

[ant1sthenes]

It's a bad idea, just a less bad idea than going for all-or-nothing gamble on good government as you propose.

[Bill Dalasio]

Of those, only a constitution can provide any protection for the individual from your central state. And frankly it's an incredibly imperfect one. By granting the central state an effective monopoly on governance within a country, you create a government culture that is implicitly focused on amassing power and influence for itself regardless of the limitations of any restrictions from a constitution. And if you think competition for capital and people is a viable check at the level of the central government, its ridiculous to suggest that it wouldn't apply at the level of state and local government.

[Cytotoxic]

This is why I favor more numerous smaller states.

[chemjeff]

Actually, decentralizing power is more democratic, not less.

Look I know there is a tension between having the mob run amok, and having authoritarian dictators imposing their will. I'm going to side with the less authoritarian solution 9 times out of 10.

[Hyperion]

This. If they need to form a line with the radical right wing teanuts on one side and the proggies on the other, I can't run fast enough to reach the side that the proggies are not on.

[Rhywun]

teanuts

lol

[Hyperion]

If you just cut it off at that angle corner in Nevada, that's right above Sacramento, then almost all of the population of the state is south of that line.

Maryland has a similar initiative to form West Maryland, which would comprise most of the state, but outside of Frederick, which is the 2nd largest city, there are no people. Almost all of the population is in a line from north of Baltimore down to Annapolis on the west side of the bay. Outside of that small area, there aren't any people.

I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here, just thinking.

[Long Woodchippers]

There are some people - Frederick, Hagerstown, Cumberland. There not as down with the "People's Republic of Maryland" crap, and many are Steelers fans

[simplybe]

Just what the country needs another socialist state. I would rather the Red States become their own country and let the Progressive Democrats go to hell.

[Hyperion]

There would be another civil war because the progs wouldn't let it go. They would first say, well all you red states just go away, we don't need you! Then when the red states became more prosperous, the progs natural envy would set in and they'd be saying 'Hey, we're all in this together, you had no right to leave! That's our stuff you're hoarding!'.

Then there would be a war. But the progs wouldn't be armed, because guns are icky. Wonder how that will turn out?

[Bill Dalasio]

They would first say, well all you red states just go away, we don't need you!

Doubt it. My guess is that they would use it as their opportunity to attack all of "those people". Just look at the blood lust a few rednecks hanging out in a shack in the middle of nowhere inspired in them. And just a few years ago I recall a proggie lamenting how Reconstruction wasn't punitive enough and allowed any elements of the local culture to remain intact.

Of course, how they would go about waging that war isn't particularly clear, as you suggest. While the proggies are quick enough to use the military, it's not like the proggies are known for their martial traditions. Virtually all of the soldiers they'd need would either have become part of the new nation or would have conflicted loyalties. And writing a really scathing tweet isn't exactly going to shake the foundations of the rebellion to its core.

[Notorious UGCC]

[James Earl Jones accent]

"They shall submit once they feel the full POWER of our hashtags."

[Rhywun]

How many states DON'T have a grievance about under-represented rural areas?

I think a better overall strategy is to fight to limit government, everywhere. Walling yourself off in your own enclaves isn't a long-term solution because FedGov will continue to stick it to you via demands made by the hyper-blue leftover states.

[Rational Exhuberance]

Oh, I dunno, at some point, the Senate has to tilt away from the "hyper-blue leftover states".

Of course, that's why progressives fight tooth and nail to prevent the creation of new states.

[Abu Nudnik]

Interesting!

[rosybrown6596]

My first job out of High School was at St Paul and over the next 5 years Iearned so very much. Seeing the hospital torn down tears a small piece of my heart out. The Daughters of Charity and the doctors and staff of St Paul Hospital will always be with me.
???????????http://www.HomeSalary10.com

[rosybrown6596]

My first job out of High School was at St Paul and over the next 5 years Iearned so very much. Seeing the hospital torn down tears a small piece of my heart out. The Daughters of Charity and the doctors and staff of St Paul Hospital will always be with me.
???????????http://www.HomeSalary10.com