Israel

Netanyahu Was Right to Bring Up the Holocaust

The U.S. is now on a path that will enable a force that openly threatens Jews to become far more powerful and dangerous.

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One aspect of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress that really seemed to get under the skin of many Obama loyalists was his contention that the Jews are facing another 1938. And of course, the historical analogy is imperfect because historical analogies are almost always imperfect. The problem for the Jews is that in this case, there simply isn't a better one.

Across the media, Netanyahu's reference to the greatest tragedy in Jewish history was treated as some kind of political stunt. It was kind of like … well, I guess, like questioning a president's patriotism.

"At the end of it, when I think he really veered off into political territory, don't know if it was on a delay at that point, but when he sort of raised the specter of the Holocaust and 'never again' and Elie Wiesel, I mean, there was this great—Ari Fleischer could have done this great political speech," explained Gloria Borger on CNN.

And James Fallows at The Atlantic argued that to make such a comparison, a person must first answer "whether the world of 2015 is fundamentally similar to, or different from, the world of 1938."

The answer is yes. The world is fundamentally different and similar.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Iranian supreme leader, is a theocratic revolutionary and an anti-Semite. His beliefs reflect a deep scriptural and political animosity toward Jews prevalent in Iran's institutions. So if you were a Jew living in the same neighborhood as a nuclear Islamist state—a nation where leaders are persistently threatening to carry out a Jewish genocide and, at the same time, denying that a Jewish genocide took place in the past—you, too, might be anxious.

It's fair to say that the Holocaust plays an oversize role in contemporary Jewish life. Not every skinhead is working to rebuild the Schutzstaffel. Not every instance of anti-Semitic graffiti portends a new Holocaust in Europe. And members of Hamas may think like Nazis and may wish they could be like Nazis, but they lack the clout, ingenuity, and society to threaten an annihilation of the Jewish people.

But there is a prospective menace to Israel's existence, and that is the pairing of fundamentalist Islam and nuclear weapons—whether it happens in six months, 10 years or 25 years. That doesn't necessarily mean that Iranian mullahs—radicals by any standard, including their own—will begin laying waste to the region as soon as they break the threshold. But for the first time in a long time, a force that unambiguously menaces the lives of millions of Jews will possess a weapon that allows them to take a shot at obliterating them.

So I'd say it's as good as any time to bring up 1938.

Interfaith conferences, education, and the hard work of P5+1 nations are all nice, but the Jewish call of "Never again!" has only worked because of F-16s, Tomahawk missiles, and genuine red lines. It's worked because of the Begin doctrine, most likely still in effect, which is the idea that a preventive strike against enemies that possess weapons of mass destruction is the moral responsibility of the Jewish state. This is why there is no Osirak reactor in Iraq and no al-Kibar nuclear facility in Syria.

Yes, Netanyahu's been warning for many years that Iran will soon possess centrifuges for uranium enrichment and be on the threshold of a nuclear arsenal. We probably don't know when. But most commentators have stopped pretending it won't happen. Instead, most argue that it's likely that most Iranian leaders are rational and concerned about their own self-preservation. That sounds like a lot of projection with a potentially disastrous downside.

Despite the seer-like ability of American pundits, there is always the chance that Iran means what it says about the Jews. But I suspect that many American progressives like the idea of another nation's effectively checking Israel's regional power. A nuclear Iran, though, can protect allies, proxies and terrorist groups, all of which destabilize both Israel and Sunni neighbors, without having to worry at all about the threat of retaliation. That itself is a nightmare. But what if 20 years down the line, the Iranian government takes on an even more radical and apocalyptic disposition? What if there's another revolution? Will Islamists give back nuclear weapons?

So though imperfect, the 1938 analogy works well enough. It's probably the stark moral clarity of the analogy that makes progressives most uncomfortable. Some regimes, such as the Iranian state, are authoritarian, backward, and evil. I don't have any answers as to how to stop them. And perhaps the Israeli government has exaggerated the speed at which it will be able to obtain weapons. But the United States is now on a path that will enable a force that openly threatens Jews to become far more powerful and dangerous. Which seems—like another event I can think of—unconscionably irresponsible.

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  1. False equivalence,1938. Israel was not the aggressor then. Gaza voters turned to Hamas out of desperation, caused by Israel’s military embargo and occupation (now “only” an embargo, which is an act of war).

    America needs to get our head our of our ass. When I stopped counting, during the Gaza hostilities last year, civilian deaths were something like 1100 Gazans to 29 Israeli’s. Great for recruiting terrorists, in defense of terrorists.

    What Netanyahu wants is even worse. We are to use our military force, to guarantee that Israel remains trhe sole nuclear power in the region. But if all the Arab states are banned from owning nuclear weapons, ummm, why does Israel need them if not for aggression. More recruiting tools.

    Why not just start praying for another 9/11?

    1. Gaza voters turned to Hamas out of desperation

      More like they “voted” for Hamas because they didn’t want to see their families beaten to death if they didn’t. Hamas isn’t noted for gentle treatment of anyone who opposes them.

      -jcr

      1. Hamas isn’t noted for gentle treatment of anyone who opposes them.

        Ummm, did you notice the Gaza death toll? Who are the barbarians?
        And you also ignored the acts of war which began a decade earlier.
        I’d say “nice try” but it’s more like denial.

        1. Who are the barbarians?

          The Hamassholes who keep lobbing rockets into Israel instead of lifting a goddamned finger to help the people they rule through fear and violence.

          -jcr

          1. Self-defense. Israel had a military embargo and occupation 10 years earlier.The embargo was still on. Embargoes are an act of war. The truth shall set you free.

            You just said they fired missiles instead of defending their people from a military embargo.

            1. You are a liar, and an idiot. Moreover, you insult everyone here by assuming we’ll buy your Hamass party line like we were college kids.

              -jcr

              1. You are a liar, and an idiot

                I confess. I’m an Arab spy infiltrating the Judeo-Christian aggression .
                You got me

                Your tribe wins.

                1. I’m an Arab spy

                  You’re far too stupid to be a spy. What you are, is a sucker who’s peddling Hamas propaganda.

                  If the Israelis were as evil as people like you claim, there wouldn’t even have been any Palestinians by 1970.

                  -jcr

                  1. OMG! I made a total fool out of trashmouth Randolph before he posted this latest lies ( and scampered away)

                    You’re far too stupid to be a spy. What you are, is a sucker who’s peddling Hamas propagand

                    I LOVE to watch thugs make a total ass of themselves!!

                    If the Israelis were as evil as people like you claim

                    Your really are a shameless bullshitter, But when I call you out as a fool, check how long the UN tried to end Israel’s occupation of Gaza, chump. And see how you’ve been brainwashed.by your tribe.

                    This one is nearby

                    Michael Hihn|3.7.15 @ 7:38PM|#

                    Did your parents teach you that trashmouth is acceptable behavior amomg mature adults? Ooops. are you an adult?

              2. John C. Randolph|3.7.15 @ 3:28PM|#
                You are a liar, and an idiot.

                Human Rights Watch
                You’re a stooge and a dumbfuck
                And a trashmouth thug.

                http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/1…..l-blockade

        2. Who are the barbarians?

          The guys who put all of Gaza’s resources into tunnels and weapons instead of bomb shelters? Or heaven forbid, actual industry? And continue to do so?

          Before you go off into more ahistoric lying, the blockade wasn’t in place after the 2005 pullout. What could have caused it to happen? I wonder, wonder..

          1. Before you go off into more ahistoric lying

            Don’t waste your breath. Just so you know whom you’re dealing with, last summer, during a Gaza War thread, Hihn denied the Holocaust happened.

            He’s just one of the loonies that were attracted by the newsletters and hasn’t gotten the hint that its time to move on.

            1. Why does this not surprise me? Thanks for the heads-up.

              1. Why does this not surprise me?

                Because you’re a gullible assholes who accepts anything on faith alone, if it supports your bigotry.

                And the proof of your gullibility is plainly visible. (you’ll also deny it)
                Thank you for playing. Please slect a lovely parting gift ….

              2. Old Man With Candy
                You swallowed a total psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof.
                Are you man enough to apologize? Or a thug like Cowardly Mulatto?

                https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

            2. Don’t waste your breath. Just so you know whom you’re dealing with, last summer, during a Gaza War thread, Hihn denied the Holocaust happened.

              You get more insane every day.
              All the facts here prove you wrong, so shoot the messenger.

              How many of you assholes know that Israel maintained a military embargo and occupation for 10 years (only the embargo remained)
              Embargos are an act of war.
              And you denied it right here in plain sight! (snicker)

              1. Have I misrepresented your views on the topic? I don’t believe I have.

                1. Go, Heroic, go!!! You have smelled an asshole, as I have smelled an asshole also… It is a good deed, any day, to warn a community… Whether “virtual” or “real”… To the presence of an asshole. Fore-warned is fore-armed… Well done, Sir or Maam!

                  1. SQRLSY One
                    You swallowed a total psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof.
                    Are you man enough to apologize? Or a thug like Cowardly Mulatto?

                    https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

                    1. Sure, I’ll apologize… MH and/or Mary Stack, I am SOOO sorry that you’re an asshole… I am also sorry that the condition apparently somehow manifests itself as both acute and chronic, at the one and the same time… Please accept my apologies, and I hope you get better soon… Or at least, failing that, eventually… Or, ever?!?!

                    2. SQRLSY One
                      You swallowed a total psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof.
                      Are you man enough to apologize?

                      Didn’t think so, but had to ask to be fair.
                      On the evidence: total psychopathic thug (which is what a lack of conscience is.)

                      https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

                    3. Hi MH / Mary Stack / “Ettore Greco”,

                      Is “Ettore Greco” yet another of your aliases? I found your web site at http://www.wavevolution.org ? The, um, shall we say, “colorful” writing style sure seems to match your own? I think I know who you are now? At the bare min., I can see what you stand for?

                    4. SQRLSY One
                      You swallowed a total psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof.
                      Are you man enough to apologize?

                      Didn’t think so, but had to ask to be fair.
                      On the evidence: total psychopathic thug (which is what a lack of conscience is.)

                      https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

                      —-
                      so the dumbass posts a useless link and thinks he’s not accountable for his slanderous and thuggery. (sigh)

                      Definitiion of psychopath

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

                2. Have I misrepresented your views on the topic? I don’t believe I have.

                  (laughing) Dumbass, if I was a holocaust denier you could find it on Google. But at least we see how many undeniable bigots are in the thread.

                3. PROOF: Heroic Mulatto Psychopathic (his own link!) OMG

                  http://bitly.com/1Ez6CtK

                  ==
                  Heroic Mulatto|8.23.14 @ 10:06Am|#
                  the effects of the Bush tax cuts.
                  You mean a steady GDP growth that occurred with a simultaneous decrease in government spending, along with a concurrent rise in personal income disposition? (As per the Government Printing Office’s own data
                  —-
                  Anyone else think Bush cut spending! (LOL)
                  ===

                  Michael Hihn|
                  I’m laughing at your defense of the Bush tax cuts. 85% of the cuts went to taxpayers UNDER $250,000, who were paying only 45% of the personal income tax – the greatest wealth redistribution since FDR!

                  Bush decreased government spending???

                  ==
                  He goes psycho, pulls Holocaust denier out of thin air

                  ==

                  Heroic Mulatto|8.23.14 @ 10:19AM|#
                  I don’t care what you laugh at you fucking Holocaust denier. We all know you have a habit of ignoring evidence you deem inconvenient to your hate-filled ideology.

                  ===

                  Michael Hihn|8.23.14 @ 10:36AM|#
                  Any examples, chump?

                  ==
                  Heroic Mulatto|8.23.14 @ 10:42AM|#
                  Any examples that the Holocaust happened? The evidence in the historical record is overwhelming. I’m not here to educate you. As of this post, I’m blocking you as I have no desire to waste my time arguing with morally-crippled scumbags.

                  ===

                  See what he did? I ask for examples of his lie. He twists it.
                  How many other thugs followed the psychopath? Will any apologize? (snicker)

              2. Interesting that “Embargos (sic) are an act of war”, yet this chucklehead doesn’t mention that Egypt also maintains an embargo. How many times has Hamas fired rockets towards Alexandria?

                1. Interesting that “Embargos (sic) are an act of war”, yet this chucklehead doesn’t mention that Egypt also maintains an embargo. How many times has Hamas fired rockets towards Alexandria?

                  Which embargo blocks Gaza from their own seaports?
                  Chucklehead.

              3. Mike, I believe he was referring to:
                https://reason.com/archives/201…..es#comment

                1. Mike, I believe he was referring to:

                  Thanks dumbfuck!!!. That link does not go to a comment

                  But this link documents you two as rather psycho liars

                  https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_4725248

                  As you’ll see, Mulatto threw a hissy fit when I clalled out his bullshit on the Bush tax cuts.

                  So, all the bullies will swallow it as they alreadty have displayed their bigotry. But the honest one will either thjnk your two are crzy, or go see the proof.

                  Here’s the deal. You can have all the haters and bigots. I’ll continue providing evidence for the ones with integrity

                  Oh wait. The asshole must have been using that link before — the dumbfucks will never see it’s a broken link, so they’ll make fools of themselve like you just did, and I have a link showing he’s as crazy as you.

                  All in all ….

                  Keep proving why the libetarian brand is rejected by 91% of libertarians you fucking destroyers.
                  .

                  1. Show us on the doll where the bad Jew touched you Mikey.

                    1. (yawn) 12-year-old-kid
                      MIkey? (snicker)

                  2. Mike, the link goes to an article. Are you too inept to search through the comments? My guess is that you probably are. But give it a try anyhow.

                    I will say it was somewhat ambiguois whether you were truely taking the position that the Holocaust didn’t occur. So unlike dipshits like you, I will refrain from attacking you for that.

                    You must have found my comment below. The one that links to your anti-Christian, anti-NAP attack of me? I bet you found that comment. As said below, I didn’t need the link because I knew what occurred. But you’re an elderly man whose memoryay be shot so I posted just to let you see how royally you fucked up again. You pretty much did exactly the stuff that when others do it here causes you to go geriatric batshit. Maybe you think you have a monopoly on initiating (verbal) violence.
                    So we have you attacking Christians. Then assigning me to that tribe (Christian Caliphate – your words). You then kept posting that I was Christian. So you’ve been wrong several dozen times (for amusement, I may copy the cite for each and poat t with numbers). If you forgot the post from last year it proves you are stupid and really wrong. If you did remember it makes you a collossal liar. You also lied about being in Mensa so that was another lie. You fucked up the interpretation of kinnath and SomeEngineer’s posts. Wrong. And violated NAP with it. You are the village idiot for Reason.

                    1. Chumby
                      You are twice a co-conspirator in a totally psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof. Are you man enough to apologize? Or a thug like Cowardly Mulatto?

                      https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

                    2. I provided the link. Then said I didn’t believe it was sufficiebt to label you as someone that does not believe in the Holocaust. I was the messenger and you attacked me for the content and the position of another. I see common theme here. Once again you show your qualifications as the village idiot.

                    3. Then said I didn’t believe it was sufficiebt to label you as someone that does not believe in the Holocaust.

                      OMG Where? Kinda stupid to tell such a psycho lie on the same page you’re lying about. (ever the fool) Also lied about the Christian thing

                    4. You really are our Village Idiot. (Hangs head in shame)

                    5. You are the village idiot for Reason.

                2. Chumby
                  You are a co-conspirator in a totally psychopathic lie. Here’s the proof. Are you man enough to apologize? Or a thug like Cowardly Mulatto?

                  https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

                  1. I wish we could post graphics directly. I’d make a crayon drawing with bright colors so you’d have a fighting chance to comprehend.

                    As most village idiots apparently do not know, posting the information is appreciably different than supporting the content. But perhaps you, as someone in the December of their life, has lost sufficient faculties to be able to understand the not-so-subtle and important distinction.

                    You are, and will be, Reason’s village idiot.

        3. Anytime a superpower hits a hostile third world country, the death toll on one side will be higher. Especially if the enemy is known to sacrifice civilian life for their own gain.

          By now, ISIS has more than matched the Gaza death toll. And unlike Israel or the United States, they don’t make even cursory efforts to spare civilian life. ISIS didn’t decapitate Kenji Goto because they ignored or bungled intelligence.

          Asians still hold various grudges against one another, but they no longer bomb each other to death. There are no Korean terrorist do not bomb Chinese or Japanese embassies even though China has a long, LONG history of stealing lands and subjugating their people. There are Mcdonalds in Vietnam now, so we’re on good terms with them.

          Israel is fighting a perpetual battle against people stuck in the middle ages, and who won’t let things go. Ever. No one else is threatening the lives and security of citizens from every nation on the face of the earth to carry out their theocratic agenda.

          Israel can have all the nukes they want and I won’t lose much sleep. What’s Israel gonna do to us? Force me to eat matzo soup? What threat does Israel pose to me, as an Asian, as an American, as a non Jew Gentile? None. Nothing. Zero. I can’t marry a daughter of a rabbi, but who cares.

          1. By now, ISIS has more than matched the Gaza death toll

            Doesn’t excuse Israel’s military aggression against Gaza.

            l. And unlike Israel or the United States, they don’t make even cursory efforts to spare civilian life.

            Civilian deaths from last year’s war were 1800 Gazans to 64 Israelis. Reports from UN observors are largely suppressed here.

            No one else is threatening the lives and security of citizens from every nation on the face of the earth to carry out their theocratic agenda.

            Does every Arab nation counf? ISIS points to the long-standing Judeo-Christian war against them. ISIS recruiters love you.

            Israel can have all the nukes they want and I won’t lose much sleep.

            You’ll lose us thousands more lives will you lose for? Will another trillion in “defense” spending be enough?

            What’s Israel gonna do to us? Force me to eat matzo soup?

            You already capitulated when you allowed them all the nukes they want.

            What threat does Israel pose to me, as an Asian, as an American, as a non Jew Gentile? None. Nothing. Zero.

            Tell that to the survivors and families of 9/11, the Boston bombing, and all our war dead since 9/11. And a trillion in spending. Actions have consequences.

    2. So what the Israelis should have let a few more of their guys die so that your little score card would look more even?

      1. So what the Israelis should have let a few more of their guys die so that your little score card would look more even

        Sure. Israel would not look so barbaric if it was more balanced.
        Why would you support the recruitung efforts of Hamas and ISIS. Seems just a tad nonproductive.

        1. How generous of you. “We want more dead Jews.”

          1. How generous of you. “We want more dead Jews.”

            Ummm, fewer slughtered innocent Gazans, so you’re now an even bigger fool (along with being a proven liar)

            This is why you’re so quick to excuse aggression by others. Perhaps.

            1. Mike, speaking of aggression by others. I spent seven minutes this evening finding the very moment we first interacted and it involved you attacking me and assigning me to a tribe of which I am not a member:
              https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_4605012

              1. I usually troll peruse Reason using my iPhone so linking isn’t easy. As you have noted, I have an acute memory so I typically don’t need to link back to things that I remember as if they just occurred. But I am now on my computer and feeling generous so I decided to share that gem with you.

              2. Chumby, this one’s mere hysteria, not as psycho as your lie above.
                =
                You cite nonsense from the Christian Capliphate who invented the wacko notion that exercising an unalienable right to get married is a violation of unalienable rights! OMG

                You say filing joint tax returns at lower rates is COERCIVE (OMG)
                Equal rights would deny licenses to hetero couples too! DUH

                =========paste-in
                Typical nonsense from the Christian Caliphate
                =
                Doesn’t paying for a marriage license and registering with the state to be declared “married” sorta take away from inalienable rights?
                =
                No different than recording a property deed, or automobile title. Even if it did, you fucked up the concept of equal rights. Does a driver’s license deny unalienable rights?
                ==
                And isn’t one if the key reasons for wanting to be considered married so that folks can file joint returns for the coercive tax system?
                ===
                It’s “coercive” to pay lower tax rates! Extreme social conservatives want to keep all the gubmint bennies for themselves, so you swallow their bullshit.
                =
                You just cannot get around your contempt for equal rights, can you? On what authority do you base your rejection of individual liberty?

                ====

                (No answer from the bigot.)

                1. So you take a pass on labeling me Christian Caliphate?

                  Driver’s license is needed so I can drive on government controlled roads. If I buy a car but don’t drive it on their roads I don’t need a driver’s license to comply with the law.

                  My point being, which was totally lost while you aggro-jaculated in a clear violation of the NAP while incorrectly labelibg me as a Christian is that lessening government burdens of getting their permission to do things is an option versus more regulation. Less govt. Free markets. You lie. You are incorrect. You have been the aggressor. You are the village idiot.

                  1. So you take a pass on labeling me Christian Caliphate?

                    I proved you a liar!

                    1. Initially, you were just woefully wrong. And were violating the NAP when you made a big mistake.

                      After being notified of your big mistake, in a fairly neutral tone I should add, you began to double and triple down on your error making an even bigger mess of what you had started. It takes a village idiot…and Mike, you are and always will be Reason’s village idiot.

              3. 1) You lied about what I said.
                2) You claim it’s coercive to pay lower tax rates.
                3) You clain denying a gay marriage license does not violate rights, but applying for the license would! Excercisng rights is a violation of rights!
                4) You never answered why we should not then deny licenses to hetero couples
                5) Your total contempt for individual rights was shameful on a libertarian website — even from you.

                Thanks for allowing me to document your bigotry.

                1. It is coercive to be forced to pay lower taxes. Lower taxes is better than higher taxes but I still disagree. I’d prefer to be anally raped once a month than daily if those were the only two options. Taxes imposed involuntarily violate NAP. All tge Top Men arguments won’t change that.

                  I’d rather see the same sex marriage issue be used to sunset the government involvement in a contract that does not (normally) involve the govt.

                  I like the rape culture “shame on you” attempt. You could focus on controlling your rage since it resulted in you being wrong about me, violating the NAP with me (on your mind), being wrong about kinnath and SomeEngineer, being wrong about me regarding the Holocaust citation, and thn being wrong about me quite a few times regarding my defense of not being a Christian. You are either a lying idiot or a collossal village idiot.

                2. Psycho alert

                  I’d rather see the same sex marriage issue be used to sunset the government involvement in a contract that does not (normally) involve the govt.

                  So would I. But Ron Paul bullshit. As long as the government is involved, equal rights prevail — no more diversions

                  Still no answer!

                  3) You clain denying a gay marriage license does not violate rights, but applying for the license would! Excercisng rights is a violation of rights!
                  4) You never answered why we should not then deny licenses to hetero couples
                  5) Your total contempt for individual rights was shameful on a libertarian website — even from you.

                  Thanks for allowing me to document your bigotry.

                  The psychos keep changing new lies, when called out.

                  1. The village idiot has spoken.

                    It is good that we finally got you to admit you support coercive taxes.

      2. My proggie acquaintance basically said that the rockets were relatively harmless and there was no need for Israel to retaliate against any launchers that were sited in residential or commercial areas. Or send in special ops units to surgically destroy launchers. I’m sure his answer would have been the same if some local militia was lobbing rockets into his suburban neighborhood.

        1. If your proggie acquaintence had any brains he’d know that Israel had been maintaining a military blockade for 10 years.

          When you get to high school, you’ll learn that an embargo is an act of war.

          Or did he/she mean the horrendous Gaza missiles killed fewer than 20 Israeli civilians, versus well over 1000 Gazan civilians. Spare me the bullshit about rocket launchers in elementary schools. The UN observers say it’s a lie … and that UN sanctuaries took direct Israeli missile hits. What kind of barabarians target sanctuaries they had been advised of several times?

            1. That’s as psychotic as your Holocaust denial lie, “Heroic” Mulatto..

              Do you know what the Knesset is, chump? THEY say your full of shit. At this link, citing just the preamble. This is a shorter read to expose this lie.
              =

              https://www.knesset.gov.il/ lexicon/eng/oslo_eng.htm
              =
              “The Oslo Accords were bilateral agreements signed in Washington following negotiations, part of which were clandestine, between Israel and the PLO. The signed agreement was entitled the “Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.” Its main concern was on Israeli withdrawal from the territories of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, in order to allow the establishment of a Palestinian Authority for self-government for an interim period until permanent arrangements would be established.”

              ====

              You also lied about the airspace and sea space — to coverup your lies about Israeli’s longstanding abuses, including a military embargo — which is, of course, an act of war. The Knesset summary was the easiest way to expose your lie. I now assume only your fellow thugs believe you by now.

              (flush)

              1. Village Idiot – You truely are the town liar.

    3. Israel is surrounded on all sides by nations that want nothing more than to see it destroyed and the “Palestinians” are the desperate ones? Give me a gigantic fucking break. I can just hear it now: “I’m so ‘desperate’, I’m going to vote for the mass-murdering terrorists ticket”. I guess the state-run TV shows teaching kids, via Mickey Mouse lookalikes, to murder Jews is just a bonus, right? You are yet another asshole who seems to pretend that Israel is building walls and employing blockades, etc. because it just wants to spite the poor, put-upon Palestinians. The multiple wars launched against Israel, the rocket attacks and the countless suicide bombings? Who cares about those?

      And spare me the bullshit about the disparate body counts. That kind of shit happens when you put rocket launchers at the end of the fucking cul-de-sac and use schools and hospitals as staging points, military headquarters and munitions dumps.

      1. Don’t you know that when you fight a war, you’re supposed to lose just as many as the other guys.

        Fairness or something.

        1. Don’t you know that when you fight a war, you’re supposed to lose just as many as the other guys. Fairness or something.

          Where’s the part about targeting civilians with a reign of terror?
          After launching the war 10 years earlier?
          Spare me the propaganda. You’re just helping the terrorists show a religious war by the “Judeo-Christian world”

          We took sides in Japans war with China and suffered Pearl Harbor.
          We stuck our nose into the MidEast and sufferd 9/ll and the Boston Marathon killings.
          How much blood on your hands are you eager to gain?

          1. We took sides in Japans war with China and suffered Pearl Harbor.

            Hey look, Hihn’s offering up apologia for Japanese colonial fascism.

            Now tell us how the Rape of Nanking was all the fault of China’s aggression against the Japanese.

            1. Umm, where did I say it was justified?

              If you stick your nose into somebody else’s war, don’t be surpised if they strike back. Is that over your head, too? Your loving support of FDR’s leadership is noted. Did you also support the Internment Camps?

              I’ll dumb it down for you. If you keep punching a bully in the face, do you expect a hug? (lol)

              1. How about I dumb it down for you: If a bully is beating someone else up, do you continue to feed and arm the bully, or feed and arm the victim. Of course, to you, the former is fine morally, but the latter is ‘picking sides’. Oh no, such aggression!

                1. Unless, of course, it’s Israel, in which case it’s a clear sign of aggression that all libertarians must be against. Funny how you don’t want to hold the Japanese to the same standard.

      2. Israel is surrounded on all sides by nations that want nothing more than to see it destroyed and the “Palestinians” are the desperate ones?

        It’s called self defense against aggression. Embargo is an act of war, so is a military occupation, but don’t let that interrupt your excuses.

        And spare me the bullshit about the disparate body counts

        The UN observors are laughing at your gullibility. There were dead hits on UN sanctuaries. Read outside your cocoon.

      3. And as I’ve stated here many times, if I were at war I would never target military targets if I had a reasonable civilian alternative. Targeting civilians should produce much quicker results. Kill them, and their military has nobody to give them orders, nobody to fight for. Why would you ever target someone’s bodyguard in preference to targeting them directly? The bodyguard is dangerous, so you’re only endangering yourself unnecessarily by not trying to bypass him & to target directly the people you have the real beef with.

        1. And as I’ve stated here many times,

          Nobody challenged it?

          if I were at war I would never target military targets if I had a reasonable civilian alternative.

          While your enemy did … what?

          Kill them, and their military has nobody to give them orders, nobody to fight for.

          So your enemy has an army run by civilians?
          Do you think our own combat officers are running arounf to be shot?
          Wow. If they’d have shot Ike they could have stopped Normandy
          Oh wait, they’d have to kill how many soldiers to get to Ike?

          Back when you were senior military advisert to George Custer …. 🙂

          Why would you ever target someone’s bodyguard in preference to targeting them directly? The bodyguard is dangerous, so you’re only endangering yourself unnecessarily by not trying to bypass him & to target directly the people you have the real beef with.

          1. So your enemy has an army run by civilians?

            Unless they’re a military junta, of course they’re entirely at the service of civilians. If they’re a military junta, then the situation’s entirely different, and I might as well consider the people they rule to be my allies.

    4. Why not just start praying for another 9/11?

      Better a few thousand? million? Jews die than have the raghead declare war upon us?

      If I prayed, I would pray for another 9/11, where they achieve their goals and kill tens of thousands. Then we could go all Napier on the lot of their sorry asses.

      There are a pissload of Jihadists in the world. If you extrapolate polls taken in the West to the total population, millions of them. They do not hate us because we protect the Jews. They hate everyone who does not submit, the meaning of the word “Islam”.

      If sacrificing the Jews to Islam would save us, there wouldn’t be anything worth saving.

      1. I always find it amusing that some of the most strident voices here on the topic of Israeli “aggression” never have anything to say about Bhutanese treatment of ethnic Nepali Hindus, or the Burmese government’s failure to prevent violence against the Rohingya, or the communist government of Laos’ continuing campaign of genocide and war rape against the Hmong.

        Nope, just a curious fixation on a strip of desert the size of New Jersey.

        I wonder why.

        1. Don’t forget the Armenian massacre.

          1. What do the Kardashians have to do with anything?

        2. I wonder why.

          (laughing) I’m sure you do.

          1) They aren’t related.
          2) You use that to excuse Israel’s military aggression?

          I accuse you of extreme moral cowardice for PURPOSELY ignoring what we did to Native Americans. That was ridicule, chump. So throw another totally brainless hissy fit.

          1. The only person who’s throwing a brainless hissy fit is you. As usual, your senility is apparent. Both of your premises are wrong. They are highly related and I’m not using then to excuse aggression by any party. Can you breath without lying, Mr. Hihn? Please, continue to make an ass out of yourself based on your ignorance of the terms of the Oslo Accord.

            1. The only person who’s throwing a brainless hissy fit is you. As usual, your senility is apparent

              Here’s the proof, fully documented, that you are psychopathic, not just a trash mouth bully (lol)

              https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

              From your own link!

            2. Now Cowardly Mulattoi says Laos is MUSLIM. (OMG)

              Also a proven liar on the Oslo accord.

              https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137970

              And Holocaust denial.Does he drool?
              What kind of person is so filled with hatred that he’s compelled to invent the most outrageous lies …. over and over … totally out of control? Belligerant Blowhard!

              https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137959

              1. Village Idiot – You lied about me being in the Christian Caliphate. If you look in the mirror, you will be able to answer you own question. Town Liar.

        3. To be fair, none of those governments have defenders nearly as numerous as Israel, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a lot more relevant and high-profile in the US.

          Though I would agree with you that Israel’s government is not nearly as bad as those ones.

          1. none of those governments have defenders nearly as numerous as Israel, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a lot more relevant and high-profile in the US.

            I’m not sure how that matters. Indeed, it is the constant and continuous campaign by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation to keep the Israeli-Palestinian conflict front and center within the UN that prevents it from focusing on intractable ethnic conflicts in other areas. People are disappeared regularly in Bahrain, for example, and no one raises an eyebrow.

            1. I mean, for crying out loud, only the Palestinians get their own UN refugee agency (a situation that only exists because for 60 years Jordan has refused to allow these refugees to settle and work in their country), every other single group on the planet gets shoved into the UNHCR. Are you telling me the millions of displaced people and the hundreds of thousands of war rape survivors in the Congo are any less deserving of attention as theme park attending Gazans?

              1. Michael Hihnsipid is kind of like that character from Kids in the Hall, who kept challenging people to bar fights, despite the fact that every time he’d end up getting his ass kicked.

                I’m trying to figure out is he’s the bigger masochist, or if I am, for repeatedly reading his ramblings here.

            2. “I’m not sure how that matters”

              Because generally when one side of an argument is prominent, you’ll also see their opponents more often? And because things that are considered more relevant generally get more attention?

              What does the stuff about the OIC or UN have to do with this? You said “I always find it amusing that some of the most strident voices here on the topic of Israeli ‘aggression.'” Did you not mean “Reason” when you said “here?” I certainly did not get the vibe that you were referring to the UN or other international organizations. If you were referring to them, I apologize for the misunderstanding but it wasn’t clear.

              “Are you telling me the millions of displaced people and the hundreds of thousands of war rape survivors in the Congo are any less deserving of attention as theme park attending Gazans?”

              You know damn well that’s not what I was saying.

      2. Better a few thousand? million? Jews die than have the raghead declare war upon us?

        At least you’re open about your bigotry. Now you need to learn who deaclared war on whom.

        Like, I’m laughing at you for not knowing Israel had maintained both a miltary embargo and miliatary occupation 10 years earlier. Are you also a Bither?

      3. They do not hate us because we protect the Jews. They hate everyone who does not submit, the meaning of the word “Islam”.

        That’s almosty as batty as Bush’s reason.
        Are you also deluded into believing the Quran is more barbaric than the Old Testament. How easily you justify military aggression/

    5. “False equivalence,1938. Israel was not the aggressor then. ”

      Lots of people said Da Joos had it coming back in 1938 too.

      “civilian deaths were something like 1100 Gazans to 29 Israeli’s. ”

      How dare Da Joos defend themselves against people dedicated to their extermination?

      “why does Israel need them if not for aggression. ”

      Because lots of people wish to exterminate them, that’s why.

      1. How dare Da Joos defend themselves against people dedicated to their extermination?

        People get pissed when they’te victims of aggression.

        Because lots of people wish to exterminate them, that’s why.

        Self defense, They are the most barbraric people in world history. Who else committed mass genmocide against an entire civilization.
        Oh well, your puppetmaster may give you a cookie

        1. They are the most barbraric people in world history.

          And Hihn continues to show that he doesn’t know the basic meaning of words like ‘hyperbole’. Of course, it’s telling that Hihn would refer to the Jews as the ‘most barbaric people in world history’ without a hint of self awareness.

          And please, continue repeating this idiotic talking point about committing mass genocide. The. Massacre. Of. The. Canaanites. Did. Not. Happen. Get that through your moronic skull. You’re quoting Biblical myths as historical fact that is completely unsupported by everything else. Do you also think that Moses was a real figure that literally parted the Red Sea?

          1. Mike is the Village Idiot and the Town Liar. Things like logic and facts don’t get in his way of ranting in mixed bold text.

          2. The Hihnbecile probably figures that Moses parted the Red Sea the same way that he’d part his hair, if he weren’t a skinhead.

  2. But how can this be. According to Sheldon “George Lincoln Rockwell” Richman, the mullahs in Iran have stated that nuclear weapons are against Islam. If you can’t take an argument like that, based on a statement coming from theocrats, seriously, what can you take seriously? How can you possibly doubt a man who claims that Iran, a paymaster for more terrorist organizations than any other state on Earth, is really the nation whose very existence is threatened, rather than Israel’s? Really, Mr. Harsanyi, when it comes to the issue of nuclear weapons, if you can’t draw a moral equivalence between a liberal democracy and a terror-supporting theocracy, what can you do?

    1. (laughing)

      If you can’t take an argument like that, based on a statement coming from theocrats,

      Sheldon Richman is a theocrat?

      Really, Mr. Harsanyi, when it comes to the issue of nuclear weapons, if you can’t draw a moral equivalence between a liberal democracy and a terror-supporting theocracy, what can you do?

      Umm, since when is “liberal democracy” sanction military aggression?
      You’re in trouble, having to explain why Israel woulf want to be the sole nuclear power in rhe area … if not to commit even more aggression. This is rocket science?

      1. The rulers of Iran are theocrats you slack-jawed window licker. Jesus, it’s like if Bo had early onset Alzheimer’s.

        1. The rulers of Iran are theocrats you slack-jawed window licker.

          (snicker) I know. But here’s what you said, antisocial-ist

          According to Sheldon “George Lincoln Rockwell” Richman, the mullahs in Iran have stated …

          You said: “based on a statement coming from theocrats,” about a statement by Sheldon Richman. So I asked “Sheldon Richman is a theocrat?”

          Still confused about your own words? And my name is Michael, you bully and thug.

          1. And your titles are Village Idiot and Town Liar.

            I still recall the first time we interacted and, in addition to being an idiot (and later a liar regarding said situation), you attacked me in a thiggish, bullying way. NAP violator.

  3. Increasingly it seems that Reason authors are writing to a party line.. guess which one?

    So lets see. Iran wants to exterminate the Jews. Ok. How long have they been able to deliver chemical and biological weapons? And using those they don’t destroy all the precious religious shrines and if they get the wind right, Hezbollah survives too.

    Increasingly I am of the opinion we should just give Iran 20 nukes and be done with it. Thats’ a credible enough deterent against Israel who, after all, doesn’t want to lose their regional monopoly.

    Its also funny how little attention Reason or the elephant camp pay to nukes in Pakistan (and India). Thats all ok because well, there are no nutters in either country who might want to use one against the US and same countries have never ever considered fighting each other, unlike Iran and Israel who have fought countless wars the past hundred years.

    1. There were two articles in just as many days denouncing Israel’s plans and proposed policy. This is the first article I’ve seen supporting Israel in any sort of way.

    2. Give Iran 20 nukes, and you can count on losing the top 20 cities in the USA and Europe.

      -jcr

      1. Hysterical nonsense.

        1. Hey Tony, when are you going to visit Iran? I hear they have a tall building they want to show you.

          -jcr

      2. Sorry, John, but Tony is right here. Your comment is insane. If Iran attacks the U.S. and Europe with nuclear weapons, literally tens of millions of Iranians die and the government is totally destroyed and the land totally laid waste with a barrage of destruction. No one, not even Russia or China, wants that. So no, that’s not going to happen. This article is asinine.

        1. Yeah those Mullahs are so well known for their reason and respect of human life.

        2. They need those ICBMs for self defense after the US nukes them, then?

      3. Ahhh, nuclear weapons are delivered in tennis bags,
        Hysteria much?

    3. Iran and Israel who have fought countless wars the past hundred years.

      Wait, what?

      1. That one in 1921 was the WORST.

        *shudder*

        1. Citation needed

    4. it seems that Reason authors are writing to a party line.. guess which one?

      We like to call it liberty. Libertraians have a core value that opposes aggression

      So lets see. Iran wants to exterminate the Jews.

      That’s called self defense. From aggression. But Americans tend to be clueless in any history beyond our borders.

      I always wonder what we would do if the UN “partitioned” our Southwest and returned it to Mexico … especially with a hypothetical that Mexico had ruled that land for only about 300 years, over 2000 years ago, after seizing it with mass genocide of the Canaanites, and losing it when Jews refused to defend other Jews after their civil war … so they kinda pissed it away on their own, ironically (some say) caused by Solomon.

      (In other words, Mexico has a stronger claim to our Southwest then Israel has to theit current terrritory — not to suggest that either one has a legitimate claim to anything compared here)

      1. Exterminating an entire religious/ethnic group is self-defense?

        1. Exterminating an entire religious/ethnic group is self-defense?

          Hysteria, much? Among we libertarians, the distinction is who commits the aggression. I’m not aware of anyone who literally slaughtered and entire civilization — aka mass genoicide — since the Jews did it.

          Like I said Americans tend to be clueless about history outside our borders.

          1. Among we libertarians,

            Now I believe your poll that 91% of libertarians reject the libertarian label. If you’re an example of a libertarian then I reject the label as well.

            1) Insert key
            2) Twist key
            3) Release key
            4) Eat popcorn and enjoy the show

            1. Mike Hihn, Village Idiot and Town Liar, is a good example of a bad example.

      2. Because Hihn lacks the ability to consistently apply the arguments he puts forward, I’ll note that under his extremely broken logic the Palestinians have zero claim to the land either. There has never been a Palestinian state, the region has been under the control of other groups, be it the Mamluks, Arabs, or Ottomans.

        But please, continue to lecture on how Americans don’t know history beyond their own borders, historical illiterate.

        1. I’ll note that under his extremely broken logic the Palestinians have zero claim to the land either. There has never been a Palestinian state, the region has been under the control of other groups, be it the Mamluks, Arabs, or Ottomans.

          Titor screws up again!
          When did I ever mention Palestinians, chump?

          But please, continue to lecture on how Americans don’t know history beyond their own borders, historical illiterate.

          (laughing) You just made a total ass of yourself on history!!!

          Maybe if you’d stop and think now and then, you wouldn’t be a non-stop screwup. Try it.

          1. No, you sure didn’t say anything about the Palestinians. You just started a long, whiny proclamation about how the Jews don’t deserve the land they currently occupy. I wonder who would replace them if you got your wish and the Jews were eradicated?

            Also, it’s hilarious seeing anyone stupid enough to claim the massacre of the Canaanites as historical fact decry anyone else as ignorant. Do you get all your history from Biblical accounts unsupported by non-Biblical accounts or archaeological and genealogical evidence? But that would require you actually follow your own advice about stopping and thinking, which would require a modicum of self-awareness you severely lack.

            1. The Village Idiot may get his info from the senile voices in his head.

      3. self defense. From aggression.

        Bullshit. It’s the Iranian theocracy that’s stated their intention to destroy Israel, not the other way around. Israel just wants to be left alone.

        Americans tend to be clueless in any history beyond our borders.

        Project much?

        -jcr

    5. “unlike Iran and Israel who have fought countless wars the past hundred years.”

      I think you’re over-estimating. You’re probably also over-estimating US concern for the lives in distant parts of the globe.

      Note that the US did nothing, absolutely nothing, when North Korea, threatened to develop nuclear weapons, did nothing when North Korea withdrew from the NPT, tested weapons, or developed delivery systems. North Korean rhetoric is even more inflamatory than Iran and is aimed at the US herself, Japan and South Korea, both allies of the US. Given that, what can Israel expect of US. They are not even allies.

      1. Bingo. We’re begging for more 9/11s.

        Israel wants us to use force to keep them the only nuclear power in the region.
        So why would they want nukes at all, if not for more aggression?

        1. Village Idiot – I think the bigger fear is that someone else in the region might actually use the nuclear weapons on Israel. The “we have a really big stick and will use if you do A, B, or C” is secondary.

          1. “I think the bigger fear is that someone else in the region might actually use the nuclear weapons on Israel.”

            Americans also once upon a time feared a nuclear attack. Americans appear to have outgrown this fear and learned to live with the risk. There is no hand-wringing over the possibility of an attack by potential nuclear powers or even actual nuclear powers. Israel doesn’t appear to have reached this stage of maturity yet. They appear to expect Uncle Sam to sort out their abysmal relationships with their neighbours rather than taking on that responsibility for themselves.

            1. I don’t disagree. Just adding another component.

              I think Israel is in a slightly different situation. We tended to battle our historic nuclear enemy in a space race, at the Olympics, in media, and in non-nuclear proxy wars.

              But the US govt shouldn’t be giving Israel (or any other country) a dime.

      2. North Korea does not fund various and sundry active terrorist organizations that murder Americans.

        1. No, they fund a nuclear weapons programme and routinely threaten the US and their neighbours. I thought I’d made that clear in my original post. But if you prefer to fear a terror attack from Iran, go right ahead. You’ve got plenty of company.

    6. I am increasingly of the opinion that a sizeable amount of the commentary here is Salon-level batshit insane.

  4. I am of the opinion that this really doesn’t concern us.

    I do believe that Iran wants to get a nuclear weapon as a deterrent so they can use their proxies (Hezbollah and Hamas) more openly without the fear of an invasion by either Israel or the U.S.

    I don’t believe that they are insane enough to just out and out nuke Israel as that would assure a quick ass kicking by the rest of the world, not to mention that Islam really, really wants Jerusalem back under its control.

    I also however would not be that opposed if Israel decided to blow up Iran’s facilities before they could develop them any further. Israel is perfectly capable of fighting its own battles and they have a pretty good record of beating up the Arabs so I doubt a few Persians would give them that bad of fits.

    We just need to stay out of it.

    1. “I don’t believe that they are insane enough to just out and out nuke Israel as that would assure a quick ass kicking by the rest of the world”

      By whom? The Russians? The Chinese? The EU? The Zambians? Brazil? The US?

      On what basis would a country engage in a nuclear war with Iran after they nuked Israel?

      1. Zambia has the bomb? Those perfidious Bemba!

      2. Mostly likely, the U.S. I think even the present dude in the WH would be tempted but certainly Hillary or GOP guys would.

        1. The present guy wouldn’t be the least bit tempted to lift a finger for Israel.

      3. Do you seriously, even for a nanosecond, think that Israel would not launch a large percentage of their estimated 200 nukes at Iran? Do really suppose that Iran is going to knock out those?

        1. So what if they did? Even if the Israelis launched 1 minute after Iran did, they’d all be dead.

      4. “I don’t believe that they are insane enough to just out and out nuke Israel as that would assure a quick ass kicking by the rest of the world”

        Pfftph! The rest of the world that wasn’t partying might weep and gnash their teeth. Pontificate at the UN. Talk, yak, bitch, moan.

        But an ass kicking? They’d trot out “Never again, and we really really mean it this time.” And then take a nap.

        1. You’re right, that was pretty fucking stupid what I said earlier. I’d say most of the world and half of the U.S. would be living it up at the thought of Israel getting wiped out. Hell, I’m surprised the progressives haven’t been offering to fund Iran’s nuclear program for them.

      5. I didn’t really mean a nuclear retaliation. I have to admit that I was trying to be un-bias but I’m actually completely with Israel on this one. You are correct and so is that other guy a few posts down.

        Nobody would do anything to help Israel. I must have had a senior moment in my 20’s, as I thought the world wasn’t ran by cowards and corrupt pieces of shit for just a second there.

        1. It is also silly to assign reason and morality to Iran’s leaders, or assume their regime is stable and will not become more insane.

          1. Or think “we must apply the NAP to actively hostile foreign governments” who would gladly exterminate us in second, had they only the ability to do so.

            1. The “A” stands for Aggression, of which we are among the worst.

      6. On what basis would a country engage in a nuclear war with Iran after they nuked Israel?

        I HATE it if I mistakenly something totally fucking stupid but cannot delete it.
        So I understand your pain, bro.

        1. Village Idiot has learned that it posts idiotic material. Wonder if when it lies it wants to walk those back too.

          1. Keep showing all you assholes are agressive attackers throwing hissy fits, devoid of content. Like s a street gang of snarlng thugs.
            Please! Show MORE hatred.

            1. My posts showed how you attacked me first when you were decrying “aggressive” behavior, thus violating the NAP. In the same attack you labeled me as part of a Christian Caliphate when I am not Christian. This earned you the mantle of Village Idiot here at Reason. After being informed multiple times that I’m not Christian you then started referencing your own posts in some strange, unintelligent attempt to prove otherwise. This showed even more that you are an idiot as well as a liar. I later stated I was in Mensa and you said, “Me too.” I looked you up on the member directory. You aren’t there. Another lie. Town Liar.

    2. We just need to stay out of it.

      Indeed. Including clearing a path for Iran via a bad treaty or threatening Israel if they take action.

    3. Given that Iran has been actively waging low-level war against Americans and their rights since 1979, we aren’t ‘out of it’ and won’t be until the Iranian regime is gone.

  5. Dear reason eds.,

    There’s a bunch of neocon horseshit when I log onto reason.com. Have you guys been hacked?

    As a Leftist I’d like to honestly argue with libertarians who think the government should be limited. It’s too bad that the modern day libertarian opposes the use of military force except for when the Republican Party advocates it? Nick G., do you have any fucking integrity left?

    1. Dear American Socialist,

      Support for Israel or an Israeli politician’s is not purely a ‘neocon’ or ‘Republican’ position, nor does randomly screaming those names actually invalidate Harsanyi’s argument. We understand that you can only think in simple, binary concepts rather than any degree of complexity, but we ask that you at least attempt to understand an argument before attempting to ineffectively discredit it. Given your constant dishonest method of argumentation, including in this letter, you have zero right to question other people’s integrity. ‘As a Leftist’ frankly makes your opinion on a libertarian magazine’s content worthless.

      Sincerely,

      Reason

      1. Speaking of binary terms, two fof them are aggression and self defense.
        The US and Israel are the agggresors (among others)

        Dishonest argumentation? Pot Kettle Black

        1. Speaking of people who think in simple concepts rather that any degree of complexity, here’s Michael Hihn, here to show everyone the dangers of dementia/other psychological illness.

          1. You talk ABOUT complexity, but never with any.
            The only complexity I see is that you suffrer seveer denial, regarding aggression. – which IS simple. Who attacked? duh.

            Like a blowhard.Here’s an example of your “complexity” a typically snotty remark aboit Palestine which I never mentioned!

            https://reason.com/archives/201…..nt_5137980

            Like a blowhard.

            1. It’s always great when someone who fundamentally lacks self awareness comes into a thread. The only blowhard here is you Mr. Hihn, a man who consistently engages in childish foot stomping while exposing his clearly limited mental capacity.

              I’m sorry, that may have been too complex for you, let me dumb it down to your level:

              *Snicker*

              Hihn exposed again! You’re a blowhard and dumbfuck. (lol)

              1. ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

            2. Alternatively, it’s great to see you on your little crusade against all the false libertarians destroying the label.

              Here’s a little secret for you Mr. Hihn: You come off as extremely juvenile and mentally unbalanced. You continuously act in an aggressive and emotionally disturbed way. The only person doing damage to libertarianism is you, for making people associate it with the stark-mad ravings of a sandwich board lunatic. Of course, again, for you to recognize the fact that you’re your own worst enemy would require self-awareness you lack. If you really cared about perceptions of libertarianism you’d keep yourself away from a computer.

              1. The Village Idiot is more likely senile (I believe it is 73 years old). Maybe in a John McCain “get off my lawn way.”

      2. Support for Israel or an Israeli politician’s is not purely a ‘neocon’ or ‘Republican’ position, nor does randomly screaming those names actually invalidate Harsanyi’s argument. We understand that you can only think in simple, binary concepts rather than any degree of complexity, but we ask that you at least attempt to understand an argument before attempting to ineffectively discredit it.

        Sure would be nice if this charity were extended to me.

        1. Little late but I recognize the fact that you get your foreign policy dictated to you from the Church of Rand.

    2. The article was written by David Harsanyi, but then you’d know that if you’d done anything more than scan the title and skip straight to the end of the comments, you disingenuous little turd.

      1. The article was written by David Harsany

        That was pointless. And another thug.

    3. As a Leftist I’d like to honestly argue

      Liar.

      -jcr

      1. Come on now, he *might* like to honestly argue, but leftists are congenitally disabled when it comes to honesty.

  6. my friend’s mother-in-law makes $68 every hour on the computer . She has been out of a job for 5 months but last month her pay check was $15127 just working on the computer for a few hours. see post……………

    http://www.Jobsyelp.com

    1. Is she a Jew?

      1. A Persian Jew at that!

        *head explodes*

  7. The Holocaust should never be forgotten but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse to blow up Muslims and then pretend that it didn’t happen over and over for decades.

    1. We need an excuse now??

  8. Every time a representative of Israel invokes the specter of the holocaust, it only serves to undermine any actual suffering that may have taken place then.

    1. Shorter Warren: Shut up Jews.

      1. Shorter Fat American: Shut up ragheads and submit to aggression

        1. Shorter Village Idiot: dumbfucks (snickers). When is Matlock on?

  9. But the United States is now on a path that will enable a force that openly threatens Jews to become far more powerful and dangerous.

    Okay? What exactly is your alternative solution?

    That we attack Iran now? Which is stupid. And wouldn’t work.

    That we enforce even more sanctions? Also stupid. Also wouldn’t work.

    That we let Israel attack Iran? Also stupid. Also wouldn’t work.

    That we negotiate with “more force”? We’re already reaching wit’s end with many of the negotiating partners on our side.

    1. Not destabilizing that traditional counterweight to Persian/Iranian hegemony of the Gulf known as Iraq would be a start.

      1. Post 1990-Iraq never acted as a real counterweight to Iran.

    2. What makes you think the sanctions aren’t working? The Mullahs wouldn’t even be at the negotiations now if the sanctions weren’t effective.

      1. The sanctions are working at murdering Iranian civilians who have no control over their government. Nice.

        1. Citation needed. Not that your statement would matter even if true.

      2. The Mullahs wouldn’t even be at the negotiations now if the sanctions weren’t effective.

        Ummm, because Israel has nuclear weapons and is a proven aggresor.


    3. That we let Israel attack Iran? Also stupid. Also wouldn’t work.

      And why? Because you say so?

  10. I cannot recall the time when I disagreed with Harsanyi’s articles. This one isn’t an exception. But you know when I realized it? When shreek said that he agreed with all the Reason writers except Harsanyi, then I noticed it.

  11. What should be most troubling to everyone is Iran’s full on stifling of the IAEA for years now. Not much as changed. Any agreement with Iran should meet the minimum requirements of fulfilling the verified answers the IAEA is seeking (e.g. NYTimes, 2/20/2015, Sanger and Broad). Unless the questions are answers the treaty can not be rooted in fact.

    1. It shouldn’t be troubling at all unless you are irrational. Multiple countries, including Pakistan, Russia, China, and India, not considered the most rational of nations, have nukes, and have not used them, because of MAD. It is a clear fact, no one gains anything from a nuclear war. Use reasoning, not hysteria or ideology. It doesn’t hurt anyone if Iran gets nukes.

      1. You’re missing my point. The IAEA is key to verifying the treaty elements. Otherwise you have just a piece of paper if they continue to be relegated irrelevant by Iran.

      2. It is a clear fact, no one gains anything from a nuclear war. Use reasoning, not hysteria or ideology.

        No one gains either from flying airplanes into buildings or donning a suicide vest and exploding in a restaurant or marketplace. But a certain type of person does these things.

        Not all are rational actors. Israel, surrounded by countries who hate them and have tried several times to exterminate them, should be wary. For the Israelis the Iranian nuclear program is an existential question – will they be exterminated (this time).

        1. I like how he dismisses Pakistan and Russia’s possession of nukes as perfectly fine, as if that hasn’t made the world a much worser place.

  12. You know who else meant what they said about the Jews?

    1. Mel Gibson?

    2. Pontious Pilate?

    3. Henry Ford?

  13. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Just sayin.

  14. Muslims. Making NAZI’s look good.

  15. Time for a Reason-sponsored cage match between David Harsanyi and Sheldon Richman.

  16. But the United States is now on a path that will enable a force that openly threatens Jews to become far more powerful and dangerous.

    No. It merely threatens Israel, an autonomous nation halfway around the globe, and simply not America’s concern either way.

    1. Because Muslims have never attacked Americans on American soil.

      1. And you’re suggesting that the way to prevent Islamic terrorism in the US is to get more involved with Israel? Are you insane? The only reason Muslims are paying any attention to the US is because we are supporting Israel and because we are supporting various regimes throughout the Middle East.

        The US should disengage from the Middle East as fast as possible and let Jews and Muslims work out things between themselves. And if anybody has a historical responsibility to Israel, it’s the Europeans, not the US.

        1. So that’s why they attack marathons, cartoonists, and so on.
          I’m suggesting Iran with nukes poses a threat to us, and any other civilized nation.

          I agree, we should disengage from the ME, and stop being friendly with the insane freaks who run Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
          Israel, as the only secular democracy, and only country not engaged in genocide in the region, should be supported, though.

          1. Israel as a matter of law is not a secular democracy.

            1. Neither is the USA or England, if you want to get down to brass tacks.

          2. Israel, as the only secular democracy, and only country not engaged in genocide in the region, should be supported, though.

            It’s irrelevant how wonderful Israel may or may not be; it isn’t the job of the American government to support them or get involved with them politically. We should trade with them and that’s it.

            (Even if we were to select countries based on how nice and democratic they are, Israel is a shithole of a democracy, distinguished only by the fact that its neighbors are even worse.)

            1. Your Jew hatred is showing:
              When I start hearing folk talking about ending aid to Taiwan, Ukraine, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, China, etc, then maybe there will be a case for not aiding Israel, who happens to face existential threats.

              But, since it’s only Israeli aid that you yell about, it’s obvious that your problem is not with giving aid, but in giving it to Israel, which makes you an anti-semite.

              1. But, since it’s only Israeli aid that you yell about, it’s obvious that your problem is not with giving aid, but in giving it to Israel, which makes you an anti-semite.

                You’re jumping to conclusions. I clearly stated that I think the US should disengage from the entire ME, which is all we were talking about. But I’m happy to tell you: I think the US should end all foreign aid and bring all US troops home, in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere. However, I think aid to the ME currently does the most harm to US foreign policy interests, so we should wind that down ASAP.

                As for calling me “anti-Semitic”, I really don’t care; the term has become so overused that it has become meaningless. Such feeble attempts at ad hominems only demonstrate what a weak debater you are and that you have no substantive points to make.

          3. So that’s why they attack marathons, cartoonists, and so on.

            HE GETS IT!

            1. Of course, couldn’t possibly have something to with their religious doctrine. It’s not like these people specifically state it as a result of their religious beliefs either. Why, let’s just dehumanize those people and project my own bias onto them!

        2. The only reason Muslims are paying any attention to the US is because we are supporting Israel and because we are supporting various regimes throughout the Middle East.

          That’s a lie. They hate us for our freedoms and have said so.

  17. I wonder what goes on when Bebe and his speech writing team get together?
    Oh I know say “Never Again” every chance you get and people will think Iran has something to do with events of WWII. Good work guys !

    1. What a shallow thing to say.
      http://www.realcourage.org/wp-…..lism-2.jpg

      http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OX6Yd0HeT28/hqdefault.jpg

      He has every reason to say “Never Again”.

  18. “It’s fair to say that the Holocaust plays an oversize role in contemporary Jewish life. ”

    I think it’s even fairer to say that nuclear weapons play an oversize role in the contemporary American imagination. In another thread the other day commenters claimed that the US beat Japan thanks to the use of these weapons. The fact that it was entirely the use of conventional weaponry that destroyed Japan’s military capacity and reduced the population to the point of eating dogs off the street was ignored. It was down to nukes. A claim nobody bothered to refute. I guess this over-valuation of nukes is due to somethng in the drinking water or maybe the curriculum of the public schools.

    A non-nuclear nation is capable of defeating a nuclear nation. Americans and Israelis should know this fact without my repeating it. It’s not a magical wand that gives the possessor super powers over others even if the owner is evil like Iran or the Soviet Union. The author says that a nuclear armed Iran could “destabliize” Israel and her Sunni neighbours. A nightmare! he says. As though the region was a model of stability. As though any nation should enshrine something as vague as stability a foreign policy goal. Stability is not a right. Not for an individual, not for a nation. Embrace dynamism! That’s the Libertarian way.

    1. “A non-nuclear nation is capable of defeating a nuclear nation.”

      Citation needed.

      Of course, never, in history, has a non-nuclear nation actually gone to war with a nuclear nation and won.
      Proxy wars are something else altogether, though, and currently, Iran is arming Hamas as a proxy against Israel.

      Here’s a scenario:
      Non-nuclear nation A lands a million troops on the shores of nuclear nation B. Nation B utterly destroys nation A’s cities and industry in 1 hour of concentrated nuclear bombardment. Nation A’s troops in Nation B now have no homeland to speak of, no resupply coming, no reinforcements, are utterly demoralized, but continue to make a nuisance of themselves for a few years, before they are all caught, killed or desert.

      1. “Citation needed.”

        Ask your local librarian for a book about a country called Vietnam.

        1. Vietnam defeated the USA?
          Funny, we’re still speaking English and our money still has old US presidents on it.

          1. “Vietnam defeated the USA?”

            The Vietnamese nationalists accomplished pretty much what they set out to do. Those Americans clinging to the choppers at the embassy in Ho Chi Minh city couldn’t claim as much. All this despite the three nations of Indo China coming 1, 2 and 3 in terms of being history’s most heavily bombed nations. Not nukes of course, but it all goes to underline American faith in raining fire on people from a safe distance.

            1. Yes I agree.
              We were arguing semantics of the word “defeated”.
              Much of American military foreign policy was very poorly thought out, it is true.
              I often liken the whole idea of “Pax Americana” to the world keeping their heads down while America raves like a rabid gorilla and lashes out almost randomly.

              America could have destroyed Vietnam with nukes, but I wouldn’t call that “winning”.

              1. In one sense America did ‘win’ the Vietnam war – did Communism spread throughout SE Asia? Are those countries satellites of the Soviet Union or China today?

                Of course, those objectives would likely have been achieved without engaging in a war in Vietnam.

            2. Actually the VietCong were defeated and North Vietnam forced to the negotiating table.

          2. ZardozSpeaksToYou|3.6.15 @ 9:43PM|#
            Vietnam defeated the USA?

            You must be young. The famous video of us forced to abandon our embassy, scamperiing up the ladder of a helicopter. A humiliating defeat.

          3. ZardozSpeaksToYou|3.6.15 @ 9:43PM|#
            Vietnam defeated the USA?
            Funny, we’re still speaking English and our money still has old US presidents on it.

            Psssst. When you get to high school they teach:
            Italy still speaks Italian and has their own money.
            Grermany still speaks German and has their own money
            Japan ….. got it, Sparky?

            Oh yeah, so does VietNam!

            1. Village Idiot – when did Germany get off the Euro?

        2. Vietnam won nothing. Americans young threw the war to the North Vietnamese, no one else.

          1. The fact is, whoever controls the territory at the end of the conflict is called the winner, for whatever reason.

            1. Vietnam has defeated France, the US and China. Their military is in the top 5 worldwide.

              1. No, Vietnam failed to be defeated by France, China and the US.
                Vietnamese troops have never set foot in any of those nations.

                1. Which was never part of their actual military objective. Did America lose the Revolution because they never marched through London?

                  The Vietnamese were able to successfully defeat superior armies on the field a la Dien Bien Phu and their conflict with China. Despite pretty much losing every major battle against the United States, they were able to continue combat operations despite massive disadvantages. Yes, they defeated these militaries by making them unable to complete their military objectives while fulfilling all of their own, and maintain those objectives through negotiation afterwards. Everything else is semantics.

                  1. America never defeated Great Britain.

                    1. I hear that the Redcoats are planning a surprise come-back attack any time now… The Rethuglicans and ESPECIALLY the Tea-Baggers over here have REALLY pissed them off! So no, that old-old war? It is NOT over yet!

                    2. Except they did militarily to the extent that they were willing to agree to peace terms in favour of the United States.

                      War is not some one-way street of total annihilation, it’s about fulfilling military objectives and being able to retain them. You defeat an enemy in war by getting what you want despite their best efforts. Total annihilation need not apply (in fact this notion is a very recent phenomena driven by 20th and 21st century ‘total war’ conflicts. Looking back further this is clearly not the case).

                    3. The 2012 UK Telegrapg poll found that George Washington was England’s greatest foe. Hitler was dropping bombs and sending V2 rockets across the Channel yet he didn’t make it to the top.

                  2. Despite pretty much losing every major battle against the United States, they were able to continue combat operations despite massive disadvantages.

                    Nope. The VietCong were destroyed.

                    1. Except a) The Vietcong were not the sole group the U.S. was fighting in Vietnam (there was this country called North Vietnam) and b) were not destroyed (Seriously Cytotoxic I’d love you to go up to anyone present at the Fall of Saigon and tell them the Vietcong were destroyed at that point in time).

      2. I love z by the way.

        1. Not the Pulp Fiction Zed, I hope. 😉

          1. Bring out the gimp!

      3. “Nation A’s troops in Nation B now have no homeland to speak of,”

        All the more reason to simply kill every man, woman, and child they encounter in Nation B and set at least a portion up as their new homeland. Well, I guess maybe not the women, unless they brought their own supply.

        1. Like I said, they’ll make a nuisance of themselves for a while, before being killed, captured, or deserting.

  19. So the 2007 NIE on Iran and every IAEA report verifying the non-diversion of enriched uranium from the declared civilian program are lies and we should believe that this time Netanyahu is not crying wolf even though he has never produced a shred of evidence and his own intelligence and defense establishment have publicly disagreed with him.

    1. The 2007 IEA report does not say that.

  20. David, let me give you a libertarian principle that you seemed to have missed…if Mr. Netanyahu wants to take our money (and he does), he needs to stop whining about things we have to say. And its clear…not only do we have an American President who has been elected twice saying that a negotiated deal with Iran is in our best interests, but the American people themselves say the same in every poll on the issue.

    Here is Mr. Netanyahu’s (as well as yours) stance:

    Iran is run by genocidal maniacs who are building a nuclear weapon which they intend to use to destroy Israel, and sanctions have not been able to stop them. Let’s wait and see what these genocidal maniacs will do.

    Insane, both of you.

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  23. Jews are the most important people in the world and should be defended at all costs.

  24. This boils down to one simple consideration. Israel has had the military capability to obliterate any surrounding country at any time they want. They could do this with conventional or nonconventional means. However, they have not, showing restraint, regard for human life and and concern for world opinion. If the situation was reversed and Israel was militarily inferior to one of its neighbors, its state would literally last no longer than a snowman in the desert.

    1. Restraint is in the eye of the beholder.

      1. Do you think Israel is committing genocide?

  25. *popcorn*

    this is amazing.

    -FFM

  26. Israel must be defended and supported by every Western nation.

    Israel is the front line between civilization and barbarism. Israel is the front line between Western Liberty and Islamic Fascism.

    What most Leftist/Neofascist assholes are unwilling to recognize, is that Israel is a modern Western Democracy with a citizenry 20% Arab Muslim, with representation in the Israeli government, with all the same rights and responsibilities as any other Israeli.

    You won’t find even a minute comparison of equality of rights in any Islamic nation.

  27. It’s so nice to see Reason take a break from letting Richam and others post lies about foreign affairs and run a serious column from a serious commenter for once.

    1. Yes it is…. You’re absolutely correct on this!

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