Israeli Newspaper Publishes Alleged Transcript of Tense Phone Call Between Obama and Netanyahu; Doesn't Resemble Reality, NSC Tweets

White House

Channel 1 in Israel released a transcript in Hebrew it claimed was of a tense phone call between President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The Times of Israel provided an English translation:

Barack Obama: I demand that Israel agrees to an immediate, unilateral ceasefire and halt all offensive activities, in particular airstrikes.

Benjamin Netanyahu: And what will Israel receive in exchange for a ceasefire?

BO: I believe that Hamas will cease its rocket fire — silence will be met with silence.

BN: Hamas broke all five previous ceasefires. It's a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

BO: I repeat and expect Israel to stop all its military activities unilaterally. The pictures of destruction in Gaza distance the world from Israel's position.

BN: Kerry's proposal was completely unrealistic and gives Hamas military and diplomatic advantages.

BO: Within a week of the end of Israel's military activities, Qatar and Turkey will begin negotiations with Hamas based on the 2012 understandings, including Israel's commitment to removing the siege and restrictions on Gaza.

BN: Qatar and Turkey are the biggest supporters of Hamas. It's impossible to rely on them to be fair mediators.

BO: I trust Qatar and Turkey. Israel is not in the position that it can choose its mediators.

BN: I protest because Hamas can continue to launch rockets and use tunnels for terror attacks –

BO: (interrupting Netanyahu) The ball's in Israel's court, and it must end all its military activities.

Neri Zilber, a journalist from the Washington Institute for Near East Studies, tweeted that the transcript came from an American source, meaning it was likely translated into Hebrew by Channel 1 and then back into English by the Times of Israel.

State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said that, if true, the leak of the transcript represented "a severe violation of a private diplomatic discussion," while the Obama White House's National Security Council tweeted a few minutes ago that the transcript bears no "resemblance to reality" and that it was "shocking and disappointing someone would sink to misrepresenting" a private conversation by fabricating a transcript.

UPDATE: Despite the Israeli government also calling the transcript a fabrication, the Channel 1 reporter who broke the story insists it is authentic, came from a "senior American official," but says the transcript represented only portions of the conversation.

Comments

[LynchPin1477]

It doesn't exactly read like a real, natural conversation. I'm going to go ahead and call BS without some really strong corroborating evidence.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I echo that sentiment. I was just about to post that people don't talk like that.

[WTF]

Yeah, sounds too scripted to be true, I'm thinking bullshit as well.

[rts]

Well... if it's gone English - Hebrew - English, it's probably going to end up reading a bit stilted.

[Heroic Mulatto]

That's a good point, rts, but even accounting for "signal loss" in the translation, I don't think people in a natural conversation jump from talking point to talking point like that.

Again, this is just a gut reaction. Maybe politicians do talk like that when speaking to each other. They are a different breed after all.

[LynchPin1477]

Agreed. It's not just odd wording. The entire tone reminds me of the dialog you'd find in a crappy mid-90s video game.

[GILMORE]

ALL YOUR GAZA ARE BELONG TO US

[Swiss Servator, spare a franc?]

SOMEONE SET US UP THE ROCKET!

[Mike M.]

Netanyahu to Obama: "Pwned, n00b."

[On The Random, Mandelbrot]

+1 Railgun Ammo

[rts]

I'm leaning towards the "this can't be real" side as well, just thought I'd throw that out there.

(On the other hand, if it is faked, I've got to believe Mossad, or whoever did this, is better at this than what we've been presented here).

[Loki]

I've got to believe Mossad, or whoever did this, is better at this than what we've been presented here

Budget cuts?

[MSimon]

Mossad wants you to believe it wasn't them.

[GILMORE]

There's 'stilted' and then there's the actual substance of the statements, some of which are beyond-cartoonish fabrications.

An American president... telling an Israeli leader, "hush up = i trust Qatar and Turkey to keep your best interests in mind"?

Sorry, I'd accept that the Koch brothers drink the blood of orphan babies before i'd believe a American politician ever said *that*.

[TopherB]

Hey now, nobody ever proved those babies were orphans.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

The teleprompter does break...

[Mark22]

It didn't go English-Hebrew-English, it went Doublespeak-Hebrew-English.

For example, when it says "We demand...", in Doublespeak that would be "It might be advantageous for both of us if you...".

It might also have been "We would be very pleased if you ..."

[robc]

Ditto. And since our local linguist agrees, I think its clear.

However, I could see the double translation, with some editing, come out that way.

[MegaloMonocle]

I was just about to post that people don't talk like that.

Real people don't. Politicians? Hard to say.

[GILMORE]

Agreed.

the entire thing reads like a very bad paraphrase and distillation that is reworded to create the impression of 'uppity and huffy american' vs 'logical and informed Israeli'

Also, lines like "i trust Turkey" are clearly complete utter fabrications. Even Bo aint that dumb..

[Cytotoxic]

....are you sure? He's pretty stupid.

[GILMORE]

No. Not possible.

[GILMORE]

"Barack Obama: I demand that..."

while i have *no* doubt B.O. said something to this effect in some way, i seriously doubt that the word 'demand' ever passed his lips, given that this is close to #1 in the list of "things never to say in politics"

[Pro Libertate]

It's lacking the many ers and ahs and pointless circumlocutions we've come to expect from the World Greatest Speaker.

[Dweebston]

Perhaps his diplomatic phone calls are teleprompted.

[PACW]

That and the brevity give it away.

[SweatingGin]

It'd be like a red line in the sand.

[GILMORE]

Politician-speak for "demand" is,

'our position is that an end to hostilities provides the benefit of X to you, and additionally allows for Y to happen such that you in the end get what you want...albeit it will look like you're giving something up when you're really not.... '

You never say what *you* want in politics. You tell the other guy why doing X is in their benefit. its called "SELLING".

[The Last American Hero]

Yeah, but #2 is don't tell the other team "FU, I won, I got a mandate, so sit down and shut up" and we all know that happened.

[SQRLSY One]

Does B. O. stand for Body Odor, or WUT!?!?!? We all KNOW what BO stands for... I rest my (brain)-case!!!!

[Warty]

BO: I repeat and expect Israel to stop all its military activities unilaterally. The pictures of destruction in Gaza distance the world from Israel's position.

Obama's a highhanded stupid twat, but even he wouldn't phrase his stupid demands this highhandedly.

[The Other Kevin]

This has to be BS. There was not a single instance of an "uh", "let me be clear", or "stinkburger."

[Evan from Evansville]

Winner so far....

[GILMORE]

On the third read-through, I can only say =

This is "Worldnet Daily"/Newsmax-dumb

I'd hope our Reason interns were at least wise enough to suggest that there exists the possibility that a news item is "total bullshit" before passing it on.

[Heroic Mulatto]

For a bit of context, Like BBC 1, Israel's Channel One is operated by the government. I believe this was a psyops intended, as you noted upthread, to justify Israel's position by arguing against a strawman Obama.

Problem is, people don't like being lied to. So, if false, it's going to blow up in Israel's face. Should have just went with Bibi arguing with an empty chair.

[paranoid android]

If that's the case, isn't that a farcically stupid plan on the Israeli gov's part? They risk alienating their most powerful and important ally for...what exactly? A little more support from the Israeli populace that, as I understand, already supports them?

[GILMORE]

"

paranoid android|7.29.14 @ 4:09PM|#

If that's the case, isn't that a farcically stupid plan on the Israeli gov's part?"

Maybe.

As I noted = imagine if Israeli intelligence spent their days reading WND/Newsmax, and thinking "this is how Americans all think! Feed them stuff like this."?

[Lady Bertrum]

Hmmm. I doubt Israeli intelligence is so stupid as to produce this crap. It looks like someone wants it to look like an Israeli attack on Obama/Kerry. Therefore, it was created by State or CIA (probably State) and leaked to some dumbass at Channel One.

[Lady Bertrum]

So, it was a false-flag psyops.

[Heroic Mulatto]

That's an interesting theory. Question is, were we smart enough to do it?

[Lady Bertrum]

Are we smart enough? Obviously, no. Therefore, I'm wrong.

[sloopyinva (previously -inca)]

They pulled a Serbian Jew Double-bluff!

[guru]

I dunno, given a few layers of lost in translation. Obama really is that kind shithead.

[Cytotoxic]

This sounds like BS and I don't think double-translation can account for it...I sure hope it's BS. If it even approximately close to reality Israel should send the US ambassador home and never accept USG cash again.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Did you write it? And were you masturbating while doing so? It sounds like a fantasy of yours (though without images of Muslims being nuked, of course)

[Cytotoxic]

This doesn't even make sense, in addition to being puerile.

[darius404]

So what you're saying is that it suits you pretty well, then. Or is there just not enough lens flare?

[Cytotoxic]

I was referring to Bo's comment which should be pretty obvious to someone who isn't stupid ie not you.

[darius404]

Yeah, I'm well aware. I said the traits you ascribed to it (nonsensical and puerile) suit you. Even your meager intellect should have been enough to understand that, but apparently not.

[OneOut]

Hi Bo.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It makes sense, the transcript sounds like how ultra-Likudians such as yourself see Obama dealing with Israel.

[GILMORE]

Bo Cara Esq.|7.29.14 @ 4:35PM|#

Did you write it? And were you masturbating while doing so? It sounds like a fantasy of yours (though without images of Muslims being nuked, of course)

------------------------------------

Bo Cara Esq.|7.27.14 @ 2:21PM|#

I mean, show me an instance of me not respecting someone on this board (and don't include ones where that person has started by cursing or insulting me). Show me.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"and don't include ones where that person has started by cursing or insulting me"

You missed a few threads today I guess.

[Sudden]

Epic Bo Trolling, Gilmore.

I will drink a really good beer tonight in your honor.

[optimusratiostultum]

In that case I hope it is reality I'd like to stop sending them money

[Mongo]

"This is United States calling, are we reaching..."

*click*

"See, he keeps hanging up. And it's a man answering."

[RUExperienced]

+1

[Meriwether]

^^_yes_^^

[John]

Since I have never had a phone conversation with either one of them, I am not prepared to say this does or does not sound like them. Does it sound stilted? Sure. But that could be due to translation.

I understand the concerns over this. But I don't see how you can dismiss it out of hand either. It certainly fits with what you would expect such a conversation to be.

[ernieyeball]

"Does it sound stilted?"
SOUND? stilted?
No one is hearing this. We are all reading it after how many translations? This "sounds" different to everyone depending on what they want to "hear".

[John]

I am hearing it as I read it. Can you not vocalize something in your head?

[TopherB]

Sure I can. But is my imagined vocalization in any way matching the actual original vocalizations? No way to know.

How many times on a text conversation have you assumed sarcasm that was in fact meant seriously? And that is without being translated to another language and back again.

[Homple]

The Obama administration would not tell even a smidgen of a falsehood. If you like your invasion, you can keep it.

[jmomls]

*The Obama administration would not tell even a smidgen of a falsehood. If you like your invasion, you can keep it.*

I know, right? And Obama would never treat an "ally" like complete and utter garbage, either!

Also, he totally and for sure didn't abandon Bibi in the White House a few years back while he went to eat a 3,000 calorie meal with his family.

[BakedPenguin]

The brevity is what convinced me it was fake. Obama adds a couple layers of fatuousness to everything he says.

[Tony]

I'm not sure I get why Beebs is being so pissy toward the Americans. What's his leverage? Domestic US politics, which one might assume to be intractably pro-Israel? He's sure doing his best to change that.

[Cytotoxic]

LOL no he's not.

[antisocial-ist]

I don't think this is real, but

the transcript bears no "resemblance to reality

Neither does anything else the man says.

[Ken Shultz]

In all seriousness, when Hamas doesn't agree to a ceasefire, that means what exactly? That they agree to keep having the shit beat out of them?

They figure they're got the cameras on the Israelis now, and they think that means Israel will lose in the court of world opinion?

Meanwhile, other than to appease the United States, why would Israel want a ceasefire? If Hamas doesn't want Israel to stop trying to beat the shit out of them, and Israel isn't anywhere near done doing what they've set out to do, why would Israel agree to a ceasefire?

In addition to everything else both sides think about us, they must think we're unbelievably annoying. If this transcript is a complete fabrication, it rings true insofar as it captures Obama's weird belief in his own messianic power.

In his own mind, Obama is the way and the life. How frightening! If he could, I bet he'd grant all those displaced Palestinians asylum here in the U.S. The audacity of hope, indeed.

[Raven Nation]

OT: I saw your post on AM links about having trouble with Reason/Firefox. Not being pedantic but what kind of trouble, exactly? Trouble loading? Trouble following links?

[Ken Shultz]

It crashes flash, every time.

I get an error message asking me if it should shut flash down. Most of the time, if I say yes, it crashes flash, and I can go on--but trying to type, etc. is extremely slow.

Sometimes it just hangs on the error message, and I just have to kill FireFox.

I have the lastest plugins as of yesterday.

I have no problems on any other site, and I don't have problems on this site in Chrome. And the problem seems to have something to do with the autoplay ad on the front page.

[Raven Nation]

Yeah, I've seen the same thing. And it does seem to be connected to the Flash player since, once Flash crashes, it tends to be a little faster than before the crash. Flash doesn't seem to be a problem on other websites for me.

I'm using a Macbook and I also notice that the laptop runs really hot as the Flash player kicks in. I've opened up the Systems window and it does seem to be using a lot of memory.

Unfortunately, I don't have any answers. The only thing that makes me happy is that it seems to be a software problem rather than something with my computer.

[Ken Shultz]

Yeah, I like Firefox because I have a plethora of little search engines I use for various things, and Firefox accommodates that really well.

Sometimes you really want to use something other than Google, plus, you know, Borg and all that.

I think it's got something to do with the code on that one autoplay ad on the Hit & Run front page. That ad sucks. And it's always starting and stopping again. It makes this noise blurp when the ad restarts, too.

Maybe they should have another pledge drive and kill that one ad?

[OneOut]

I have that same problem with Chrome on all websites. I have tried every fix. I have disabled different versions of Flash and reloaded Chrome all to no avail.

I had been giving thought to an alternate browser but now am confused.

[mtrueman]

"Meanwhile, other than to appease the United States, why would Israel want a ceasefire?"

Because continuing the war against Gaza is not accomplishing Israel's goals: mainly splitting the Palestinian population and sullying Hamas' image. These attacks tend to unify rather than divide. The stated goal of the attack on Gaza is to stop the rocket fire into Israel. This has also failed and rockets continue to be fired into Israel.

Israel might want a ceasefire because the goals of their attack are not being fulfilled. Killing a few hundred women and children every other year or so will not bring peace.

[MSimon]

And firing rockets into Israel won't bring peace either.

Watch what happens when Hamas runs out of rockets.

[mtrueman]

"And firing rockets into Israel won't bring peace either."

It might help lift the siege. They will keep international attention focused on the conflict. The Palestinians won't be able to inflict a military defeat on Israel.

[Swiss Servator, spare a franc?]

Was Mary Mapes seen slinking away?

[sloopyinva (previously -inca)]

Unless the newspaper is designed to target millennial readers, I fail to see how this story matters.

[Ken Shultz]

I think Obama's support for Israel, or, rather, questions regarding that support, that's a big deal in Israel, and it's probably a big deal to the Democrats' fundraising domestically, as well.

When was the last time you saw a U.S. president in open opposition to Israel?

...much less in regards to Israel's dealing with a terrorist organization?

[John]

The fact that Obama at no point in the conversation called BiBi a racist is pretty strong evidence this is fake.

[Raston Bot]

it's funny if read in Mayor Quimby voice.

this post paid for by Quimby for Mayor.

Vote Quimby!

[bostonaod]

Pfft, just have the NSA release the audio

[Mauser]

What WOULD the US do if more the 50% of its territory came under incessant rocket fire endangering its citizens,
I'm all for nonaggression and minding my own but hey you lob a fucking rocket at me then I will retaliate,
Israel is not in a position to be passive about this shit,

[Ken Shultz]

"What WOULD the US do if more the 50% of its territory came under incessant rocket fire endangering its citizens."

Just take a look at what we did to Iraq after 9/11 and multiply that by some number.

It might look at what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945.

It's ironic, too, because although my Arab and Muslim friends never really understood the point, I think the reason Israel restrains itself as much as it does is because of our relationship with the U.S.

I don't think Israel is aggressive towards the Palestinians because of America's relationship with Israel; if it weren't for the U.S., I think Israel would have taken the gloves off a long time ago.

And, again, just for the record, I'm not saying this is the way things should be or that it's right--but I think that's the way it is.

[See Double You]

What did Hamas think would be the Israeli response when it kidnapped three young Israeli men and murdered them?

It knew Israel would respond with overwhelming force, and it knew they knew that, by conducting all their military activities within the civilian population, many, many civilians would be killed.

They not only were aware of this: they took adavantage of it, like they always do! Hamas knows they cannot militarily defeat Israel, so the next best option is to maximize the number of Palestinian civilian deaths as possible, blame it on Israel, and hopefully leverage the inevitable international outrage to get concessions from Israel.

It's realpolitik to Hamas.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Article 13 of the Hamas Charter:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Again, their intentions are printed in black and white. Why do we insist on this farce?

[Ayn Random Variation]

"Again, their intentions are printed in black and white. Why do we insist on this farce?"

I'm the last person to throw around the race card, but I don't know what else it could be.
What other country in the world would be expected to just lay down and die?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Likud Platform since 2006:

"HE PLAN:

The Immediate Phase:

1. Talks on the establishment of a Palestinian State will cease effective immediately.

2. Israel will declare its right to exist within its current borders, with no further surrender of territory.

3. Israel will annex a designated part of Judea and Samaria."

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"What did Hamas think would be the Israeli response when it kidnapped three young Israeli men and murdered them?"

Hamas doesn't do much thinking, but in this instance remember that after the murder of the teens allegedly by two Hamas members, Israel engaged in some pretty provocative responses that could not necessarily be predicted, and only after that did Hamas fire start firing rockets at Israel again.

[OneOut]

" and only after that did Hamas fire start firing rockets at Israel again."

AGAIN ?

You mean this isn't the first time ?

[Karl Hungus]

The transcript makes "Obama" sound forceful and decisive. That's how I know it's a fake.

[Adam330]

There is not a single "let me be clear" or "there are those who say" in this. Clearly not BO.

[CatoTheElder]

Ok. Now I am completely persuaded that it's fake ... it has to be.

[Bill Dalasio]

Add me on to the skeptic list. That said, what in the conversation differs from the substance of what the U.S. proposed to Israel?

[CatoTheElder]

BO: The ball's in Israel's court, and it must end all its military activities.

BN: Okay, then, call them kinetic policing activities.

[OneOut]

Yes.

It's just a man made disaster !

Or work place violence.

[Chinny Chin Chin]

the Obama White House's National Security Council tweeted a few minutes ago that the transcript bears no "resemblance to reality" and that it was "shocking and disappointing someone would sink to misrepresenting" a private conversation by fabricating a transcript.

YES! Just like the White House, I am shocked, SHOCKED that someone might misrepresent something in politics. This cannot stand!

[Ken Shultz]

Their response sounds to me like a non-denial denial.

They're not saying the message is false. They're saying it misrepresents the conversation.

They're not saying the conversation didn't happen--they're saying it doesn't bear a resemblance to the reality.

[Ayn Random Variation]

Barack Obama: Four!

Benjamin Netanyahu: Huh?

[OneOut]

It's FORE !

not four

[Stickler Meeseeks]

Obama's on the golf course playing his 84th round after being re-elected. This is obviously bullshit.

[Mark22]

The real question is: why is America wasting time and money on this conflict? Why don't the Europeans fix this mess? They created it after all.

[Taco]

Does anyone really believe that BHO went sentences, paragraphs even, without uttering "now let me be clear"?

[Biggbear54]

Yet further proof of Odildo's terrorist ties. Utterly ANTI-AMERICAN in every sense of the phrase.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Even the Times of Israel showed a death toll early on of over 214 dead in Gaza versus Israel's ONE.

So like that old Japanese anime, those 3 Israeli teenagers were just constituent parts that combined to form one adult Israeli?

Still, it is disingenuous to discuss the situation as if the world began on July 8th, 2014.

[Cytotoxic]

Another retard. If Israel wanted to kill them all, they'd be dead. If the world were turning against Israel more than ever, the expression of anti-Israeli sentiment would not be weaker than it has been as far as I can remember.

[Lady Bertrum]

I'm somewhat sorry to be such a bitch, but your comment is so fucking stupid I'm finding it irresistible.

The world isn't turning against Israel, the "world" has been against Israel for quite some time. Since, oh about the time the Europeans began to find it politically advantageous to bash Israel to appease their minority immigrant populations while trying to ingratiate themselves with Middle East tyrants as a proxy war against the US. The "world" has been against Israel since Middle East dictators found Israel bashing useful in distracting their own population from the shitty conditions in their own countries.

The death count will always favor the Israelis because unlike Hamas they actually try to prevent the death of their own citizens.

Also, the consensus of "The World" holds no moral authority. "The World" is a sincerely fucked up place with self-promoting tyrants and psychotic populations.

[Ken Shultz]

Hamas has done a lot more than throw snowballs.

If Hamas were across the border in Mexico, and they did to U.S. what they've done to Israel, we'd be much more brutal to them than Israel has been.

I mean, look what we did to Iraq because of 9/11.

And who was right or wrong or what the facts were didn't matter in the least.

At some point, regardless of who's right and who's wrong and why, you get to the place where it becomes absurd to expect cohabitation, doesn't it?

If that's not the case, then, like I suggested, maybe we should offer them all asylum here in the U.S.

If they're only a threat to Israel because of Israel, then we should have no problem bringing them here to the U.S. by the tens of thousands. In fact, we're probably morally obligated to do so, right?

[OneOut]

"It's the death toll in Gaza that is shocking much of the world. Intentionally killing over 1000 civilians is rather barbaric."

What's truly barbaric is hiding weapons in a childrens school and also not allowing civilians to leave an area that Israel has announced it is going to bomb.

Perhaps one of the reasons that parts of the world is against Israel's actions here is when media like the NYT agreed with Hamas to only show pictures of dead Pal civilians and not the rest of the story where the bombs land. They agreed to this as a condition from Hamas to allow them access.

[Cytotoxic]

Proportionality is asinine horseshit.

[Ken Shultz]

Explain to me why Hamas rejected a ceasefire, what was it, three days ago?

[See Double You]

Don't worry, HM, Michael Hihn can't stand when anyone calls him out on anything, so he resorts to tarnishing his or her character.

[Heroic Mulatto]

You might want to chill, Michael. It's not dishonest to point out that the origins of the conflict date back longer than 3 weeks ago. And I don't give a shit what the Times of Israel says, to imply that the 3 kids kidnapped and murdered by the Hamas-sponsored operation that started off the current fighting don't count when you want to do the whole proportionality pissing match is asinine, and is (are you ready for this Michael?) utterly, completely, and without any qualifications dishonest.

[Cytotoxic]

Absolutely no one except you gives a shit about Clinton or the EU. These may be the least important actors on the world stage.

[Ken Shultz]

Well then the EU should offer them all asylum.

Hell, we can offer to ship them to Europe!

We'll resettle all the Palestinians in Gaza that want to go--we'll resettle them in Europe by the tens of thousands.

It would be very European of them to offer the Palestinians asylum like that--if only they would!

[SQRLSY One]

"Also, the consensus of "The World" holds no moral authority. "The World" is a sincerely fucked up place with self-promoting tyrants and psychotic populations."
Hoooray for Lady Bertrum, Ah could NOT have said it better myself!!
(Tiny PS, the USA has a WAY significant part of the world's statistically and militaristically, even emperialistically, significant portion of psychotics).

[Lady Bertrum]

This Robert Heinlein quote is accurate:

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded ? here and there, now and then ? are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck."

I think we might soon be experiencing some bad luck.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I wonder if Mr. Hihn has such passion for the plight of ethnic Nepalese in Bhutan. Or for the conflict in the Central African Republic. Or Southern Sudan. Or Rakhine State. Or the Pattani province of Thailand.

[Lady Bertrum]

You repeat Hamas apologist agitprop without context. I'd say you are stupid, but I'll go with ignorant instead.

[Lady Bertrum]

I'm guessing 'no'.

Israel/Palestine offers such a unique opportunity to identify with the favored "oppressed" and masturbate over their self-imposed suffering.

[Ken Shultz]

"Your premise is a rather shameful lie. And your conclusion is both bass backwards and anti-rational. But you gave it your best. You need a break. Cool down. Try to think clearly."

Excuse me, so are you saying we should or shouldn't extend asylum to any and all Palestinians who willingly want to come to the U.S.?

[Ken Shultz]

"It's like destroying an entire family, because one of them threw a snowball at you."

That was your analogy.

It's a shitty analogy.

[Ken Shultz]

"Umm, since YOU brought it up, what would we do if the UN "partitioned" our entire Southwest and gave it back to Mexico?"

I'm sure I'd resist.

If I started targeting civilians and kept up on a campaign like that for decade after decade? I wouldn't expect to be assimilated back into Israeli society, that's for sure.

And that's an important point to keep in mind, isn't it? That no matter what's happened in the past or why, it is absurd to expect Israel to lay down its arms and accept these people back into Israeli society at this point, isn't it?

If it's not absurd, then every government in the western world should be lining up to offer these people asylum--isn't that correct?

[OneOut]

"Umm, since YOU brought it up, what would we do if the UN "partitioned" our entire Southwest and gave it back to Mexico?"

Why would they give it back to Mexico ?

Mexico stole it from Spain. Shouldn't they just give it back to Spain and cut out the middleman ?

[Heroic Mulatto]

You're either being dishonest (there's that word again) or are confusing Gaza with the West Bank. Israel unilaterally disengaged, by withdrawing all troops and removing all settlements, from the Gaza Strip in 2005.

[OneOut]

Michael Hihn|7.29.14 @ 5:25PM|#

You do that to ME and you'd better be armed."

Wow tough guy.

Israel is armed but Gaza isn't occupied.

You seem to be a Palestenian propagandist. I don't know if you're a professional or probably just some forgein aid student here getting a free education.

But I do know that you are too stupid to get by with your weak bullshit here on Reason.

It would be a more productive waste of your time to try another website.

[Heroic Mulatto]

You need to study the history of that region.

I dare say I'm infinitely more well-versed in the region than you are. I don't confuse Gaza with the West Bank, for example.

Hamas is not typical

Is not typical to what? Fatah? This point doesn't even make sense.

and their own people have now turned against them

Yes, after electing Hamas to lead the Palestinian Authority, Hamas' draconian Islamist rule has proven to be unpopular in the Gaza Strip...but if you are suggesting that Palestinians are engaging in armed revolt against Hamas, you're being dishonest.

It's Israel slaughtering civilians, but they do blame their own government.

In Michael Hihn's world individual Palestinians possess agency, but Israelis are one large amorphous mass.

[Lady Bertrum]

It's hopeless, HM. He's poorly informed and arrogant - a really hopeless combination.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

That's not a good reply since Israel still controls Gaza's borders, airspace, customs, tax collection (and distribution), power, water, etc.

[Heroic Mulatto]

You're right. Into the filter he goes.

[wadair]

Gaza has a relatively long coast and shares one of its four borders with Egypt. You make it sound as if Gaza is landlocked and surrounded by Israel.

[Ken Shultz]

Oh, I don't think they're fabricating.

I think maybe they're just being coy.

They're saying the conversation was misrepresented.

That's a non-denial denial!

[See Double You]

You've called me a liar and everyone who disagrees with you dishonest, when all you should have done is something akin to "I disagree" or "I think you're wrong, and here's why."

You started the personal attacks. I simply made an observation.

[See Double You]

In a previous thread, you disagreed with what I said by calling me a liar and accusing me of double talk.

You have responded to multiple commenters on this thread by calling them dishonest or liars.

That's what prompted my observation. BTW, you need to chill out, what with all the rage writing.

[See Double You]

Whoa. You might want to get your blood pressure checked, bub.

[mtrueman]

"Proportionality is asinine"

You must admire Bibi. Only a Likudnik, like Bibi who traded over 1,000 Palestinian terrorists for the return of 1 captured Jewish soldier, could believe proportionality is asinine.

Don't need to worry about perverse incentives. Proportionality is asinine, after all.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Finally some truth. In war you play to win. Funny part is Israel is being nice.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Just shut up.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

I don't think "facts" mean what you think they mean.

[OneOut]

Well how about your Brothers in Egypt.

Can't the Pals hang out there ?

Or maybe they could go to Jordan where the father of the current King killed 20,000 of them, every man, woman, child, and beast with artillery for acting the same way in Jordan that they do with Israel.

And not one peep from the Arab world when it happened.

[OneOut]

"Are you done stalking me yet?"

So you make coments about, and to, others, and when they respond they are "stalking" you ?

[See Double You]

Are you done being a defaming, lying little asshole?

[See Double You]

Are you too stupid to comprehend a thread?

[See Double You]

Yep. MH replies to what people say by calling them liars, thugs, uneducated, and retarded. He then runs and cries when someone responds in kind, and claims they are "stalking" him.

He has the emotional capacity of a 13 year-old Valley girl.

[Ken Shultz]

I answered that question two and a half hours before you wrote this.

It's two comments below this one.

Are you blind?

[Ken Shultz]

Thuggish response?

What's thuggish about asking why we don't extend asylum to all the Palestinians in Gaza?

Is that something you want us to do? Is that something you think the Europeans should be willing to do?

If not, why not?

[Ken Shultz]

Let's rephrase.

Effectively, the question was whether Hamas wanted Israel to stop destroying them, was it not?

Hamas responded that they would rather Israel just keep the fight going.

What does Hamas hope to achieve with this awful strategy?

To what extent does Hamas now share in the culpability for what's happening to Palestinians?

No doubt, Israel is responsible for what it does--just like the U.S. was responsible for dropping two nuclear weapons on Japan.

...but if you ask the Emperor of Japan to surrender after you drop the first atomic bomb, and you tell him if he doesn't surrender, you're going to drop a second one--and he still doesn't surrender? ...at some point, the Emperor also becomes culpable in the second nuclear bomb--does he not?

Hamas was offered a ceasefire.

They rejected it.

Isn't it possible that Hamas wants more Palestinians dead because they think dead Palestinians in the news works in Hamas' favor? They kill Israeli civilians to generate headlines--how much of a stretch is it to think they might want Israel to kill more Palestinians for the same reason?

[See Double You]

Pointless, Ken. MH is unhinged.

[Tony]

Anyone else want to chime in and agree that the Official H&R Israel-Palestine Position is unquestioned pro-Israel?

[See Double You]

More people on this site side with the Israeli government on this issue than with Hamas.

Go cry about it.

[See Double You]

Speaking of asinine horseshit, if a few guys from, say Ireland, murder three Americans ... you'd launch a military attack on Ireland. O-o-o-o-okay

An undeniably more accurate analogy: After the Irish government sponsors the kidnapping and killing of three Americans, an American citizen kidnaps an Irishman and murders him. The Irish government then responds by lobbing rockets into the U.S. The U.S. responds with overwhelming force.

[See Double You]

[Clinton and the E.U.] may be the least important actors on the world stage.

Cyto wasn't implying he was an "actor on the world stage," but noted that Clinton and the E.U. are such actors, and claimed they are the least important in this crisis.

Responding with "NO...YOU are the least important" shows a lack of reading comprehension.

[Tony]

Yeah because you're a bunch of FOX News rightwing dumbshits. I've been saying that for years.

[Mauser]

So much butthurt....