Ron Paul: Bradley Manning Deserves Nobel Peace Prize More Than Obama

Reason

It's tempting to say, "well, who isn't?" when former congressman Ron Paul remarks that military whistleblower and current guest of Uncle Sam, Bradley Manning, is more deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize than is actual recipient Barack Obama. After all, olive branches tend to get a bit singed by missile exhaust when you try to mount them on killer drones. Manning, on the other hand, has done a nice job of exposing often-lethal government actions to deep and even embarrassing scrutiny.

From U.S. News & World Report:

Army Pfc. Bradley Manning, who is accused of providing an enormous stash of classified government documents to WikiLeaks for publication, deserves a Nobel Peace Prize more than President Barack Obama, according to former Texas Rep. Ron Paul.

"While President Obama was starting and expanding unconstitutional wars overseas, Bradley Manning, whose actions have caused exactly zero deaths, was shining light on the truth behind these wars," the former Republican presidential contender told U.S. News. "It's clear which individual has done more to promote peace."

Manning was nominated for the award in 2011, 2012 and again earlier this year. Obama won the award in 2009.

The WikiLeaks documents Manning allegedly leaked "pointed to a long history of corruption [and] war crimes" and "helped motivate the democratic Arab Spring movements," according to the Icelandic, Swedish and Tunisian politicians who nominated Manning.

For his part, frequent critic of overseas adventures and authoritarian excesses, Glenn Greenwald, agreed with Paul's assessment, saying, "Bradley Manning epitomizes what the Nobel Peace Prize was supposed to reward, while Barack Obama is the antithesis of it."

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Comments

[Sevo]

"Ron Paul: Bradley Manning Deserves Nobel Peace Prize More Than Obama"
You know who else deserves it more than Obozo...

[darius404]

I'm flattered Sevo, but the height of my work isn't yet upon me. It'll be at least 6 months until I gain super-powers, I'll be hard put to accomplish anything before then.

[Sevo]

Geeze, hate to disappoint, but I had Chamberlain in mind.
Let's face it, the bar is pretty damn low.

[Gladstone]

Wilt? Austen? Joseph?

[Sevo]

Adolph.
No, wait....

[silent v]

Since I have never started a way, I am going to guess Me.

[silent v]

way/war, what's the difference?

[Sevo]

You got Obozo beat all hollow!

[generic Brand]

But what does Bradley Manning think of Bioshock Infinite, or more accurately, Peter Suderman's lack of a review of it? Can you answer that Ron Paul?

[AlmightyJB]

He said it was gay.

[darius404]

To be precise he said it was "queer as blazes, crazy, and put a hit on [him]".

[Hugh Akston]

God dammit gB, quit bringing that up. You're gonna abort this thread too.

[generic Brand]

I have never had such power in all my life. I'm like the Kermit Gosnell of Reason, aborting partially started comment boards left and right!

[Hugh Akston]

And like Gosnell, absolutely no one pays attention to you!

[Jesus H. Christ]

Holy crap! That's one of the funniest and most disgusting mashup comments I've read in a while. Well done, General, well done indeed.

[Jesus H. Christ]

I meant "Generic"

[DesigNate]

Now he's gonna get a swollen head.

[Hyperion]

Bioshock is a commie game. In Soviet Russia, game plays you!

I could swear that I have read that comment somewhere before...

[ant1sthenes]

Really? What has Bradley Manning ever done to further the aims of the "international community"?

[Marshall Gill]

This is a silly comparison. Just counting the bodies, Charles Manson deserves it more than Obama.

[Sevo]

Again, the bar is pretty damn low.

[Hugh Akston]

But Obama is trying to keep those skymurders a secret. If they're secret, it's like the people he's blown to bits never even existed. People like Manning, who are trying to ruin everyone's nice peaceful day by running around pointing out that the government is murdering people, he's the one who's causing all the troubles.

That's why he's been in solitary with a pinecone up his ass for the past 1,000+ days.

[Sevo]

"That's why he's been in solitary with a pinecone up his ass for the past 1,000+ days."

And Obozo's been flying around on AF1 playing golf.
See what that Peace Prize can do? It's magical!

[The Immaculate Trouser]

pointing out that the government is murdering people

I don't remember any insights regarding such from the Wikileaks document, and my guess is that Manning (as an Army Private) wouldn't have had access to that level of intel, anyways.

I remember arcane bullshit, high school girl-type memos between employees of the State Department, and some information gleaned from the memos which made it easy to ascertain who some of the people in Afghanistan helping us were.

[Hugh Akston]

That's why I specifically said "people like Manning."

The actual stuff that Manning published had no business being classified in the first place. Which only makes his arrest and treatment in prison all the more monstrous.

[RyanXXX]

^That's because you weren't paying attention. But go on being an asshole about someone who actually TOOK ACTION rather than bitch on the internet

[Xenocles]

You're half right. He should not have had access to much of the stuff he allegedly leaked. Nevertheless, it's out there.

[ant1sthenes]

Didn't the whole thing start with the collateral murder video? I thought that was his motivation for leaking, or am I thinking of something else?

[Sevo]

ant1sthenes| 4.12.13 @ 8:51PM |#
"Didn't the whole thing start with the collateral murder video?"
You mean Manning's leaking? And you mean the (debunked) collateral "murder" vid?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc8cjAlf8hA

[Palin's Buttplug]

Even Obama didn't think he deserved the Nobel as evidenced by him giving the award money away.

More interesting is that gold fell about $78 today as the "story" on it keeps unraveling. Of course all commodities fell as the USD strengthens but gold is by far the most bubbleiscious of all commodities.

The sweet spot for shorts will be $1300 to $1000 as panic sets in the goldbug community.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug| 4.12.13 @ 8:15PM |#
"Even Obama didn't think he deserved the Nobel as evidenced by him giving the award money away."

And kept the award, dipshit.

[Xenocles]

Yeah, no kidding. The guy makes millions in residuals from his books and will rake in tens of millions on the lecture circuit after he leaves office. He can easily afford to give away a windfall and he did so visibly, ensuring maximum style points. It's the fact that he accepted the honor that matters.

[OldMexican]

Re: Palin's Buttwipe,

The sweet spot for shorts will be $1300 to $1000 as panic sets in the goldbug community.

You mean for those that bought at $1700 or for those (like me) that bought when it was less than $800?

Because I don't think you have even a cursory understanding of the subject about which you blabber like a manicurist.

[jesse.in.mb]

PB speaks Vietnamese? Does he know where a good bahn mi place is? I have a great pho place, but I need a good bahn mi place.

[Hyperion]

PB speaks Vietnamese? Does he know where a good bahn mi place is? I have a great pho place, but I need a good bahn mi place.

More important, is he ready to do our pedicures?

[Copernicus]

"More important, is he ready to do our pedicures?"

You like Crytole Jeeeeww? It so Seksy..

[SIV]

Atlanta is full of good banh mi joints. I can't find one in LA or TX. SoCal must have some because that is where many of our GA Vietnamese come from.

[jesse.in.mb]

Westminster and Santa Ana are wall to wall Vietnamese. They're just out of the way for good bahn mi. One of our patients brought some in pretty regularly for a while, but he finished his sequence of therapy and I've been jonesing.

[Apatheist ?_??]

I can't find one in LA or TX.

Been to Houston? We've got tons of delicious Vietnamese.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Lee's Sandwiches, broham.

[jesse.in.mb]

Oh shit, there's one close to my work. More lunch variety, here I come.

[Irish]

Yeah, gold was clearly a bubble, but it's going to end up far higher than it began.

Even if it's not worth the incredible value it's holding right now, the spot at which it ends up will still be an indictment of the decline of the dollar.

[Sevo]

"Because I don't think you have even a cursory understanding of the subject about which you blabber like a manicurist."

Look, the guy "works in finance". Someone has to empty the trash cans, sweep the floors and put new tissue in the stalls. In "finance".
And if they get in early, they hear some gossip, and if they check the trash, they find some numbers.
They "work in finance". This is not hard to grasp.

[GroundTruth]

In 2001, pre 9/11 (the turning point of all history and the day of utmost importance.... ick), Au was about USD280, about 50% above production cost. Until it returns to the typical 2 - 3 x production cost of most goods, I would only sell. So, I suspect once it hits about the above 1300 to 1000, the price will drop down to about 600 - 800 rather quickly.

[Palin's Buttplug]

True.

Gold 2000s = Tulips Early 17th century.

[ant1sthenes]

According to MoMT, as I understand it, pretty much any form of money is a bubble, it just happens to be a stable bubble.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Who believes in MMT? And why? Any prominent economists?

[Hyperion]

No one deserves the Nobel Peace Prize, more than Captain Dronebot.

Peace through killing them dirty brown furen kids, that's the way to your prize.

[Palin's Buttplug]

The Obamas paid an effective tax rate of 18.4% for 2012.

The Obamas reported giving $150,034 to charities, representing roughly 25 percent of their adjusted gross income. The largest gift was $103,871 to the Fisher House Foundation, an organization that provides housing for military families near military hospitals.

Effective tax rates vary wildly from one taxpayer to another because of the many tax breaks available, but counting all U.S. taxpayers, the average income tax rate in 2010 was 11.8 percent, according to the Tax Foundation, a business-oriented tax research group in Washington.

http://www.reuters.com/article.....RD20130412

[Fatty Bolger]

I'm sure their effective tax rate was a tiny fraction of that, when you count all the free goodies they get.

[Sevo]

Fatty Bolger| 4.12.13 @ 8:44PM |#
"I'm sure their effective tax rate was a tiny fraction of that, when you count all the free goodies they get."

This is analogous to that hypocrite Buffett's (non-vintage) whine.
He takes a 'salary' of $100K, pays taxes on that. But flys around on private jets he owns and pays no taxes on those benes.
The man works tax law extremely well, and then asks that he be taxed more!

[Fatty Bolger]

Yes, I've pointed that out many times. He says "I should be taxed more!" OK, asshole, start by paying yourself a reasonable salary for a man in your position.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Why should Buffett pay a higher rate than others?

Berkshire not much more than a small business in terms of employee count at the holding company.

He is a CAPITALIST - who profits from investment income - not salary.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug| 4.12.13 @ 8:58PM |#
"Why should Buffett pay a higher rate than others?"

Man, the toilets didn't need a lot of work this evening?
Uh, because he *CLAIMS* he should be taxed at a higher rate, dipshit. Is that a good enough reason?

[Irish]

Because he's asking for other people to pay higher taxes that he isn't going to pay himself.

God, you're an idiot. The pure hypocrisy of Buffett is unbelievable, and you unthinkingly support him anyway.

[Palin's Buttplug]

He is not asking for OTHER people to pay a higher rate.

[Irish]

Yes he is! If you raise the tax rate, other people will pay higher taxes. Buffett is already using every tax writeoff he can find to pay lower taxes. If he wants to pay higher taxes he can do so right now. He can take fewer write offs. He can give money straight to the treasury. He chooses not to do so.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Buffett suggests "we" (capital gains) pay higher taxes to lower the deficit. Not "others".

Look, neither party is interested in cutting spending when they are in power so he has a point in deficit reduction is important.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug| 4.12.13 @ 9:13PM |#
"Buffett suggests..."

Right. Like the IRS "suggests", you idiot.

[Irish]

And Buffett chooses not to pay higher taxes himself. He chooses to take advantage of every possible tax loophole. He chooses to write off private jets as business expenses and so forth.

Now, I have no problem with him doing these things, since I want people paying lower taxes anyway. But to then suggest that everyone should have their taxes raised is hypocritical.

[Sevo]

Irish| 4.12.13 @ 9:08PM |#
"Yes he is! If you raise the tax rate, other people will pay higher taxes. Buffett is already using every tax writeoff he can find to pay lower taxes. If he wants to pay higher taxes he can do so right now. He can take fewer write offs. He can give money straight to the treasury. He chooses not to do so."

Buffett:
"Mr. Taxman, MAKE me pay more taxes, uoh, aah. Please Mr. Taxman *MAKE* me pay MOORE!"
Good thing he isn't a foot fetishist; Macy's stock of pumps would be cleaned out!

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug| 4.12.13 @ 9:05PM |#
"He is not asking for OTHER people to pay a higher rate."

WHAT?!
How stupid are you? He specifically asks that, dipshit!

[Drake]

I already pay a higher rate than Obama on far less income - and he can't stop saying I'm not paying my fair share.

[Jordan]

Typical progressives. Higher taxes for thee, but not for me.

[Cdr Lytton]

...giving $150,034 to charities...

...largest gift was $103,871...

Who the fuck gives uneven amounts like that when writing a check to charity? It sounds like a lot of in-kind contributions.

[Sevo]

GOPer's decide sky daddy drives policy:
"The Republican National Committee, at its spring meeting in Hollywood, on Friday passed a strongly worded resolution opposing same-sex marriage..."
http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05el...../12/21879/

[Sevo]

Ooops. That shoulda gotten an OT leed.

[Seevo]

Pol Pot knew the proper way to deal with bleevers.

[jesse.in.mb]

Oh no! We have a fake Sevo!

[Sevo]

No one replaces the original!

[jesse.in.mb]

Fake Sevo has been an incredibly weak troll so far. He hasn't even managed to bait Irish.

[Seevo]

No Pope! Up the Orange Order! Remember the Boyne!

[Sevo]

Seevo| 4.12.13 @ 9:02PM |#
"No Pope! Up the Orange Order! Remember the Boyne!"

Remember the Maine? Pearl Harbor?
Man, weak tea...

[Hyperion]

Wow, you're right, fake Sevo totally sucks ballz.

[Hyperion]

I need to work on fake Hyperion. Fake Hyperion will be the most awesomest troll ever.

[jesse.in.mb]

H&R deserves only the finest in trollery. Fake Sevo put zero effort in.

[Irish]

H&R deserves only the finest in trollery. Fake Sevo put zero effort in.

I was going to make a parody account of Jesse in response to this post, but then I realized that whatever I wrote would probably qualify as a hate crime.

I was also going to link to this site. Because it's funny to me.

[jesse.in.mb]

How would you even begin to parody me? I'm pretty ridiculous just being me.

[Irish]

It was mostly going to be vulgar statements about lube and twisted sex acts.

Like I said: Hate crime.

[jesse.in.mb]

I'm not entirely sure how that'd be parody and not just emulation.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Sevo is enough of a troll. All he does is regurgitate Glenn Beck spittle.

[Obama's Douche]

Sevo's atheism is a front for his Christfagottyness.

[Hyperion]

Good grief, dude, you aren't even a good troll when it's genuine trolldom. Why don't you mozy on down to Glenbeckistan already. No one on here ever talks about Beck, but you are obsessed with him, like you are with Palin and Boosh. Loser.

[Sevo]

Palin's Buttplug| 4.12.13 @ 9:34PM |#
"Sevo is enough of a troll. All he does is regurgitate Glenn Beck spittle."

Man, those floors must really need a mopping tonight to raise this sort of bile!
Sorry, dipshit, you're going to have to tell me how Glenn Beck agrees with me before I have any idea of what you propose.
Let's see it....

[Hyperion]

He's just a proggie troll who likes to pretend to be Libertarian, because he has no life, and even his own proggie friends don't like him.

[Sevo]

..."even his own proggie friends don't like him."
Probably not, since he claims to be other than that.
Some time back in a local grocery I overheard some check-out clerks gossiping; one said 'even his dog doesn't like him' regarding a former clerk. I think they were discussing the guy who now claims to "work in finance".

[Hyperion]

Well... why do I keep starting out like that? Anyway, publically sucking on the wrinkly old nut sack of someone like Warren Buffet is not going to win you a lot of friends. It's bad enough that he had his head up Obamas ass 24/7.

[RyanXXXX]

The Nobel Peace prize should be delivered Posthumously to Stalin, Hitler and Bin Laden for their heroic efforts to advance peace against US Imperialism.

[Sevo]

OK, Obozo's a reach, but you're far beyond that.

[Hyperion]

RyanXXX has also been known as Anti-War Libertarian, in the last hour or so.

Anti-War Libertarian. Talk about being redundant.

[Sevo]

"Anti-War Libertarian."
I'm down with that, but Stalin?

[Hyperion]

Troll alert.

[Sevo]

So we get RyanXXX and Seevo, but no Guy Laguy?

[Hyperion]

Guy Laguy, is a gay homosexual, just like Kyles dog. That's Jesses job to deal with him.

[Coeus]

Naw, RyanXXX is a real commenter. RyanXXXX is the troll.

[Hyperion]

Well... how many kids have any of those dudes killed with drones lately? You are on to something here.

[jesse.in.mb]

OT: Al Qaeda video resurfaces claiming how easy it is to buy guns in U.S.

the video released in June 2011 has found new life on buzzfeed.com amid the drive for new gun control laws in the United States following last December's school massacre in Connecticut.

and at the veeerrrrry end

Still, Gadahn was wrong about the ease of buying a fully automatic weapon. It is illegal under federal law to do so from anyone but a specially-licensed dealer, and additional permission is required as is a background check.

[Irish]

It's hilarious how quickly liberals become total neo-cons when it suits them.

"IF WE DON'T GIVE AWAY OUR FREEDOM THE TERRORISTS WILL WIN!"

[Hyperion]

It's all based on, everything is ok when their guy does it. Statism will totally work when the right people are in charge. And we must stay in a perpetual state of finding the right people, because reality is a total downer, man.

[Sevo]

"IF WE DON'T GIVE AWAY OUR FREEDOM THE TERRORISTS WILL WIN!"
You will get neither.

[Hyperion]

It's almost like... our corruptocrats invented and own this Al Queda...

We want to send evil guns to Syrian Rebels(some of whom are admittedly aligned with Al Queda and the Muslim Brotherhood), because it's good when they are armed to try to protect themselves against their corrupt government, but at the same time, it's bad for us to do the same, because, guns are bad, Mmkay, and childins.

[General Butt Naked]

Are they rehashing that story again? I have an old Guns 'n Ammo magazine with an editorial about the new Bloomberg-Al Queda anti-gun coalition (it was a bit hyperbolic).

[ant1sthenes]

Haven't Al Qaeda always promoted progressive talking points, since the days of bin Laden?

[Francisco d Anconia]

While I'm a strong supporter of the good Dr, on this issue he is fucking batshit crazy.

Manning is not a whistle blower. If he was he would have turned over information specific to a particular issue rather than dumping a shitload of unrelated classified information onto a public site.

No, boys and girls, Manning is not a hero and is more than likely a fucking piece of shit traitor.

[Sevo]

"Manning is not a hero and is more than likely a fucking piece of shit traitor."
I what way do his activities constitute 'traitorous'?

[Francisco d Anconia]

I won't even dignify that with a response.

[Sevo]

You may not, but you've yet to show why.

[Jordan]

Manning is not a hero and is more than likely a fucking piece of shit traitor.

The U.S. government is the only piece of shit in this scenario.

[Francisco d Anconia]

How so?

[Sevo]

Francisco d Anconia| 4.12.13 @ 10:29PM |#
"How so?"
How about some evidence that he's "traitorous"?
I'm not claiming he's a hero, only that his 'crime' is passing on largely harmless stuff to a group claiming to SAVE THE WORLD!
Dumb? Yep. Treason? Nope.

[Jordan]

Because citizens have a right to know what their government is doing.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Is your contention that there should be no military secrets?

Should we allow our enemies to know our military capabilities? Should our enemies be allowed to know what we know about their capabilities? Should we post our attack plans prior to implementing them? Should common citizens have the right to know what frequencies our radars work on? What ECM techniques can defeat our systems? Should we spend millions of dollars developing weapons to defeat our enemies weapons only to negate them by making their technology known to all? Should we not collect intelligence on potential threats? Should the identities of our agents be public knowledge? Should their sources be public knowledge? Should we divulge how we collect said information, so our opponents can circumvent it? Should we divulge our targets? Should we make our tactics public so our adversaries can come up with counter tactics?

Jordan, respectfully, I don't think you've thought this through.

his 'crime' is passing on largely harmless stuff

Again, respectfully, you cannot know that. What looks harmless to you, can be critical information to someone with more knowledge than you. It could reveal sources that could lead to those sources being killed.

You cannot defend a nation without military secrets. Divulging those secrets can put Americans in harm's way. I can't think of anything more appalling than selling out your own people. If he is proven guilty, he is a traitor.

[Jordan]

Is your contention that there should be no military secrets?

My contention is the vast majority of government secrets have absolutely nothing to do with legitimate, Constitutional national security concerns. Most are used to maintain a multi-trillion dollar police state and to conduct illegal wars.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Except, Manning wouldn't have access to such secrets. He was a Private in the US Army. Any secrets he had access to, were military secrets.

Because one doesn't like the government, does not mean ANY divulging of government secrets is a positive thing. I don't know what exactly was compromised, but I'm quite sure it wasn't the type of secret you're speaking of.

[Jordan]

And you're wrong. Most of what he leaked was diplomatic cables.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Manning reportedly told Lamo he had leaked the Baghdad airstrike video, in addition to a video of the Granai airstrike and around 260,000 diplomatic cables, to WikiLeaks.[96][97] WikiLeaks said "allegations in Wired that we have been sent 260,000 classified US embassy cables are, as far as we can tell, incorrect."

On February 28, 2013, Pfc. Bradley Manning confessed in open court to providing vast archives of military and diplomatic files to WikiLeaks.

The piece of shit didn't even discriminate between the two. He just dumped it all. Didn't give a shit if it was info that could hurt Americans or info showing alleged cover ups. He's a fucking pig.

[Coeus]

The piece of shit didn't even discriminate between the two.

Agreed. The people who classified them as the same are pieces of shit.

But it wasn't Manning who did that.

[Jordan]

The fact that a secret is a military secret is not sufficient justification for it being a secret. Not one person has been able to demonstrate actual harm as a result of these leaks. Not one person has produced evidence that these leaks contained actual operational information about the U.S. military. This is just standard CYA blanket-information-blackout bullshit.

The Iraq War logs and Afghan War logs mostly consisted of information about civilian casualties, enemy capabilities, foreign involvement, and human rights abuses.

[Francisco d Anconia]

The fact that a secret is a military secret is not sufficient justification for it being a secret. Not one person has been able to demonstrate actual harm as a result of these leaks.

And how the fuck would you know one way or the other? Do you think the military would admit harm and confirm the data accurate? Perhaps giving away other sources?

Respectfully Jordan, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Enlighten me Jordan. What is sufficient to justify something being secret? Do you have any idea, or do you simply assume nothing should be classified as that fits your narrative?

[PapayaSF]

The fact that a secret is a military secret is not sufficient justification for it being a secret.

The fact that a military secret should not have been one in the first place is not sufficient justification for revealing it. Especially when you release thousands of documents you haven't read, and when you took an oath not to do such things.

[The Late P Brooks]

*Cue dramatic music*

No, boys and girls, Manning is not a hero and is more than likely a fucking piece of shit traitor.

[The Late P Brooks]

Buffett suggests "we" (capital gains) pay higher taxes to lower the deficit. Not "others".

Lay off the paint thinner, Shreeeek.

You're making less sense than usual.

[Hyperion]

Trying to troll a Libertarian blog, will eventually drive one mad. We've seen it finally happen with Tony, and with all who came before him.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Tony has REALLY gone off the deep end lately. It's complete gibberish.

[Hyperion]

This is what we do. I am literally beaming with pride.

[Irish]

Tony has totally lost his mind. It is glorious.

[Hyperion]

Buttpig will soon be reduced to the same incoherent babbling as the others. Take no prisoners, destroy the prog trolls. Don't rest until you have driven them into the sea of despair and hear the gnashing of their teeth, and the lamentations of their women.

Oh wait... I forgot, loser progtrolls have no wimins...

[darius404]

Tony has totally lost his mind.

Again?

[Irish]

Did you see yesterday when he tried to claim that it would be less damaging for society for the government to murder climate change skeptics than to allow them to keep speaking?

[Hyperion]

Not really surprising since the communists have finally started to come out of their closet, and throw off that silly liberal label. They're getting bold. Just watch the shit that they say before the end of this presidential term. They see their day, of total government, finally coming to reality.

[darius404]

Yesterday? Didn't he say that sometime last week? Certainly further back than a few days ago.

[Tony]

To libertarians, everything is an easy truth. You are allowed your moral axioms, but science isn't optional. You undermine everything by buying into conspiratorial antiscience bullshit, whether you realize it or not.

My Swiftian comparison is meant to convey the point that not acting can be the most radical action of all.

[Contrarian P]

Everything is an easy truth to libertarians? That's pretty rich coming from you. In your world, everything the democrats do is glorious, leading us toward the promised land. Republicans are the minions of the devil.

As for science not being optional, if by science you mean the continuing questioning of dogma and requiring that observations agree with predictions before a theory is accepted, your precious climate change falls short, especially when you want us to embrace policies that have questionable benefits and likely considerable economic and statist harms.

[Hyperion]

Hear, hear! Well said, bro.

[Tony]

How I'd love for us to actually get to the point where we debate the policies in response to the extremely well established facts. That libertarians can't seem to get much past the Intelligent Design phase of moving the goalpost of scientific denial on this subject, the obvious conclusion is that the available policy options are not palatable to you. A normal person would reexamine his political beliefs in this circumstance, not buy into comforting conspiracy theories about the science itself.

[DesigNate]

$

[Sevo]

MNG quit when it required the site to have data on him/her. That's not a bad stand to take, but MNG rarely had clear, logical arguments. Most always it was a sophistry with several conditional clauses that meant arguing with a fog.
Shithead's simply an ignorant reactionary who still thinks 1917 was "the future".

[General Butt Naked]

Minge did have some logical arguments, at times.

Though when that happened he was arguing against something that you hadn't posited. Shifty bastard.

[Sevo]

"Though when that happened he was arguing against something that you hadn't posited."
Yep. It could be that MNG is shithead; both always offer(ed) 'arguments' that require trash removal before can ever address the issue.

[General Butt Naked]

Shithead has only one mode, and that is making assertions without evidence, i.e. if we do A then B will happen, and B is bad.

Minge would read your comment and provide a (mostly)cogent and (somewhat)logical response that had nothing to do with your comment. You'd then be drawn in to making a case against that, even though it had nary a thing to do with your original assertion.

Before minge got real annoying he wasn't all that bad, but he got really dishonest in his later posts. He was worth having around just to fluster John.

Neu Mexican wasn't that bad, either.

I mean, at the time, they both seemed so trollish, but compared to the actual trolls we have now they were practically aristotlean in their ways.

[Apatheist ?_??]

I miss weekday morning John MNG bitchfests.

[Hyperion]

I miss Tulpa hating on me.

[General Butt Naked]

I remember john getting so mad that he threatened to fight minge if he ever saw him at a Reason event. I also seem to remember certain commenters egging them on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back before The Gambolpocalypse, post counts in the hundreds meant that John and MNG were having a verbal hatefuck.

[Apatheist ?_??]

John was actually more sane then. So was Tulpa. I think there is something to the theory that this place is driving us all insane.

[Apatheist ?_??]

I personally remember egging them on.

[Hyperion]

I had an interesting hour long political conversation with some co-workers this afternoon.

On Friday, most folks in my department work from home. But the wiser among us know that Friday is the best day to be there, because no one else is there.

Anyway, it started out with some random article about the usual PC equality non-sense.

What was interesting, was that I wound up siding with one of my co-workers who is supposed to be conservative, against my other co-worker who claims to be Libertarian, and it got a little heated for a moment.

The topic during the heated debate was that I brought up the story that was here on Reason about religious florist lady refusing to do a wedding for a gay couple.

To cut is short, I was shocked by the totally Libertarian views that conservative guy was debating(I think he has no idea), and was not too surprised by my small L colleague about the more statist views that he was using. I almost said to conservative guy, 'I think you are actually a Libertarian and don't know it'. But I didn't because I didn't want to further offend my faux Libertarian co-worker.

[Hyperion]

The entire point of that, is thinking back to the talk here about if Rand is wasting him time with some audiences, or not. I am just saying, you never know. I worked with this guy for 4 years now and considered him a hardcore SoCon conservative, but just found out he has some amazingly small government/libertarian views.

I think we are making a mistake if we think our message cannot reach a lot more people if we just put in the effort.

[Calidissident]

Wouldn't pretty much all conservatives think that the florist shouldn't be forced to serve gay couples? That doesn't make them libertarians

[Hyperion]

No, it's wasn't that at all. He said that the government has no business in marriage at all, and that although he would not discriminate against anyone in his own business, that he thinks every person has a right to engage, or not in a business transaction, with anyone else, or not.

Trust me on this one, he was not coming at all with the SoCon narrative, or I would not have been surprised, his views were very Libertarian like.

After today, I intend to bring up the WOD with him, asap.

[Hyperion]

Just to add to this, it's somewhat observational, and only guessing at this point, but I detected a strong Libertarian streak in this guy, with whom I had never discussed politics before. It's one of those things, that you had to be there. You start to pick on subtle clues.

But my point, is that if you only spoke with the guy in business meetings, or casually, you would think, SoCon, no question.

Sometimes we are surprised, and today I was, pleasantly. I think I found someone who I can actually convince of our message, and I don't intend to waste that opportunity.

I don't like saying to someone after a few political conversations, hey, you're Libertarian and freaking them out.

I usually say, well I'm a Libertarian and this is what I believe. Which usually results in someone staring at you, like you have a 3rd eye in the middle of your forehead. So I just casually throw that in, don't mention it again, and let them discover their own truth.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Hyp

I suspect there are a lot of people like this. They have libertarian beliefs and don't have any idea what a libertarian is. This is the low hanging fruit.

Go slow.

[SIV]

There are a bunch of SoCon libertarians.
Atheist cosmos are uncommon outside academia and H&R.

[Hyperion]

There are a bunch of SoCon libertarians.
Atheist cosmos are uncommon outside academia and H&R.

Damn you SIV, you bastard, it's fucking Sexta Feira, and my brain is too drunkz to figure out what the hell you just said.

Omission Pale Ale, yep, I understand that right now, nice lacing on the glass, color nice, Yummy.

[Tony]

There are a bunch of SoCon libertarians.
Atheist cosmos are uncommon outside academia and H&R.

No there are atheist sophisticated people ("cosmos") among you really--but please do me the favor of purging them by getting in bed with Christianists.

[Irish]

What the hell is a 'christianist?' You realize that the word Christian exists, right Tony? Really no need to add an 'ist' to the end.

[Tony]

Oh I'm merely mocking the right. To parallel their "Islamist" terminology I suppose I should say Christianityist.

[Irish]

And how would atheist libertarians be purged by this imagined Christianist movement?

I honestly don't even know what this means. Have atheist Democrats been purged from the party by the radical, bible thumping inner-city baptists that basically make up the Democratic political machine in every major city?

Why would the religious beliefs of other people in the libertarian movement have anything to do with me?

[Tony]

Black people, to whom you refer, put religion its proper place. They aren't the ones advocating and lobbying in an organized way for theocracy at every turn.

The (white) Christian right has been political for a very long time, and they are the front-line soldiers of a political war that they are destined to lose.

Though I think religion is stupid, I'm not gonna begrudge the political support coming from those who actually advocate the very progressive and loving philosophy of the real mythical Jesus.

[Irish]

Are you now seriously arguing that fundamentalist black Christians are okay and fundamentalist white Christians are evil?

This is the most insane argument I've ever heard. Hardcore, fundamentalist black Christians are almost exactly like fundamentalist white Christians; they just happen to vote Democrat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I'm merely mocking the right. To parallel their "Islamist" terminology I suppose I should say Christianityist.

This is what passes for wit in Tony w/o spaces' mind.

[DesigNate]

He really is a shitty little fucktarded facicst.

[Calidissident]

Atheist libertarians are uncommon? I'm not even an atheist and I think that's quite obviously false. But I guess you can't let reality get in the way of your narrative about how SoCons are minarchists who totally don't support the War on Drugs, want to get rid of marriage licenses instead of just restricting them to heterosexual couples, etc.

[Tony]

Ah, so it's the position that we should not pay attention to the real-world question of legal equality, but instead wait forever for utopia, otherwise understood as one of those sloppily shellacked excuses for antigay sentiment.

I'll allow you the completely separate right-to-discriminate question. It's kind of your thing, and usually based on your silly principles instead of hostility to minorities.

But marriage as an institution recognized by governing authority since before even the Christians' recognize 1 male + 1 female started being the norm--changing the subject and dwelling on that? All you're doing is admitting libertarianism is stupid utopian bullshit.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Tony, are you okay? I'm serious. Your posts of late have been completely unhinged from reality. I'm serious. They make absolutely no sense. You are blabbering.

Are you taking some new medication or something? I mean it. I'm becoming concerned. You may want to ask a coworker if they've noticed any change in you over the last week or two. You might want to consider seeing a doctor or therapist or something.

[Tony]

I'm a little drunk at the moment, if you must know. Still more coherent than this redneck handwringing masquerading as thought.

[Calidissident]

Marriage licenses didn't exist in this country until the mid 1800's. And their initial purpose was to prevent interracial marriages and promote eugenics

[Tony]

And their current purpose is to provide a bunch of legal rights, responsibilities, and entitlements to couples who are allowed to have them.

It's not equal rights vs. utopia. You can daydream about utopia all the day long and still be cool with the 14th amendment.

[Calidissident]

I actually agree that marriage licenses, if they're going to exist, should be granted to homosexual couples. I was simply responding to your point about how they have to exist and it's utopia to think they possibly couldn't. But you wouldn't be you if you weren't constantly building up strawmen to tear down

[Irish]

You really have lost your mind Tony. It's like watching an enemy of yours slowly slip further into dementia. Kind of bittersweet to watch the last vestiges of sanity leave you.

All you have are weird insults not based on reality. It's like watching a madman scream at the wall in his padded cell.

[Tony]

At least I came into the asylum sane.

[Tony]

You shouldn't talk politics at work.

Can you expand on your colleagues' relative positions?

[Tony]

Manning, if found guilty, deserves to be put away according to laws established before the Cheney era. We should first vacate the stateless purgatory many Muslim suspected criminals find themselves in (and for whom nobody's advocating a NPP or paying much attention to generally.)

[Sevo]

Tony| 4.12.13 @ 10:54PM |#
..."the Cheney era."...
Is that prior to or after the shithead era?

[Hyperion]

I thought I just heard the sound of some poor soul crying out, as they descended into madness... nope, it was just the wind.

Hey, anyone ever read a review about Bioshock Infinite?

[Tony]

Yes, and I'm about to start playing it, perhaps this weekend. I'll give you my report.

[Sevo]

OT (a book, not a vid game)
Someone here recommended "Commanche Empire" ( http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb.....=commanche empire&sprefix=Commanche+,stripbooks,287 )
What I thought I knew about the Amer-Indian civilizations and the disputes with the Euro colonialists seems a long ways from the actual dynamics.
Another strong recommendation.

[Hyperion]

Hey, does anyone here remember a poster named Akira McKenzie? Did I spell that right? Not sure why I just remembered him. That was a long time ago.

[Eric]

"Bradley Manning epitomizes what the Nobel Peace Prize was supposed to reward, while Barack Obama is the antithesis of it."

This is what's wrong with modern political discourse. Hyperbole is the new norm, and intelligent people just accept it.

Obama may not deserve his Peace Prize, but he is not the antithesis of it. The antithesis of it would be someone like Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, etc. And no, Obama is not like them, as bad as he is, he is just a run of the mill statist...Don't flatter him by overblowing his mediocrity.

[Hyperion]

And no, Obama is not like them, as bad as he is, he is just a run of the mill statist

Do not underestimate dear leader. He really wants to one up all of them, but there's a little problem. He hasn't grabbed all the gunz yet. He's sure trying hard enough, leaping onto the backs of so many dead children.

IOW, the only thing between Obama and Pol Pot, is several million citizens with scary black guns and 30+ round magazines.

[Hyperion]

Ok. I was just watching late night Brazilian TV. And besides super hot, next to nekked chicks, there was a couple of amazing guitarists on. I have seen the one guy before because my son-in-law showed me some youtube a couple of weeks ago when he was here, and we were doing a sort of music one-ups-manship marathon/beer dranking, sort of thing.

Anyways, after that... Erich Fucking Von Daniken! Meu Deus, the chariots of the invisible sky gods!

The Mayans had wireless technology!

[Coeus]

In regards to what's going on in this thread, I present to you an article on The Atlantic which also suffers from insane commenters with insane views on libertarianism. And some of them seem quite violent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dcoronata
But when everything is said and done, I can use those euros or yuan to get me a cup of coffee- a government and a society accepts them as legal tender.

The value of a bitcoin is vapor- it might have some value but only for those who believe in it. You could use it to buy VA Linux stock.

This person doesn't seem to have a good handle on the notion of value.

clif kuplen
money is a legally enforceable agreement.

This one seems to have confused "money" with "currency."

clif kuplen
with no government to interfere the most powerful cartels will control all weed traffic and violaters will have their entropy increased.

Aaannd, he doesn't know much about the economics of marijuana, either.

[Irish]

with no government to interfere the most powerful cartels will control all weed traffic and violaters will have their entropy increased.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS EVEN MEAN!?!

Have their entropy increased?

[Hyperion]

Meh. It's like the issue with the interwebs, and 3D printers.

The reason that corruptocrats can't win on those issues, is that so called liberals love those things as much as Libertarians. There is no wedge issue that will save them here. They are totally fucked on these issues. I love it.

[Archduke Pantsfan]

Anyone up for some ulitmate?

[Archduke Pantsfan]

KOBE!!!!

[Apatheist ?_??]

I like the Champions League draw, what say you? I have to say despite my previous statements a Real-Bayern final will be perfect. I think this way the best three teams will play it out (Dortmund didn't impress me last round).

[Archduke Pantsfan]

I'm biased, and going for an all German final, and hoping Dortmund breaks the curse of Bayern (how good is your German?).

That being said, as long as the final is anything but another El Clasico

[Ted S.]

I'm a Bayern fan (it's the "old country" for me), so I'm obviously rooting for them. Call me biased, but I didn't get why the Fox Soccer commentators were thinking Dortmund was a favorite and were relatively muted in their praise of Bayern until well into the second leg against Juve (not until Mand?uki? scored).

Bayern are going to need a better performance from Robben and Ribery against Barcelona. Still, Robben couldn't hit the side of a barn against Juve, and Willy was exceptional, and Bayern still won the tie 4-0. I'm just worried about how they're going to fuck up the CL this year.

The asshole Malaga owner crying racism over Dortmund's offsides goal counting, while ignoring Malaga's, makes me hope they get a more severe punishment out of their appeal against the ban.

[Russell]

The glittering prize should go instead to Governor Gideon Gono of the Reserve Bank Of Zimbawe , for the World-Saving discovery of Econonoluxics

[robc]

I see no contradiction between being a traitor and being deserving of the nobel peace prize.

Some of you seem to think you cant be both.

[WomSom]

Sometimes man, you jsut have to roll with it.

http://www.Net-Privacy.us

[lizmy]

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