It's Not About Contraception
Negative versus positive "rights"
When you bake a bad ingredient into a cake, no matter how nicely you decorate it, the cake will still be bad.
That's the lesson to take from the controversy over Obamacare, Catholicism, and contraception. To recap, under Obamacare all employers will be required to arrange for "health insurance" for their employees. Coverage must include various disease-preventive health services and women's contraception at no charge. No premium-sharing, no copays, no deductibles – nothing.
The Department of Health and Human Services, which has ominous rule-making power under Obamacare, exempted Catholic churches (as employers) from this rule because Catholicism teaches that contraception is sinful. However, HHS did not exempt Catholic institutions whose mission (the government says) extends beyond religion, namely, colleges, hospitals, and charities. Those institutions would have to pay (nominally at least) for their women employees' birth-control products and services.
That seemingly arbitrary distinction set off a political firestorm intense enough to force the Obama administration back to the drawing board. Under President Obama's so-called "accommodation," all Catholic institutions would be exempt from paying for contraception after all, buttheir insurance companies would have to provide the coverage at no cost.
Top Catholic officials are still unhappy, though other prominent Catholics are satisfied. The matter isn't settled yet. (Aside: Is there a significant difference between a Catholic institution's being forced to pay for employees' birth control and its being forced to arrange the match between its employees and the insurance company that will pay for it?)
In announcing his "accommodation," Obama said that religious liberty has been squared with a "core principle": "a law that requires free preventive care will not discriminate against women." We need not "choose between individual liberty and basic fairness for all Americans." Since men's contraception is not mandated for free coverage, Obama's remark about discrimination is puzzling.
Competing Liberty Interests?
Washington Post column E. J. Dionne, a Catholic and an enthusiast for Obamacare, put it this way: "There were legitimate liberty interests on both sides of this debate." He is satisfied that both "liberty interests" have been served.
What exactly are the two liberty interests? One is clear: an institution wishes not to be compelled to facilitate what it regards as morally abhorrent. (The validity of that moral judgment is irrelevant.) But what's the other one? One infers from the discussion that it's women's liberty to use contraception. (A third liberty interest – an insurer's right not to be forced to give away services — is strangely overlooked.)
How exactly was the liberty to use contraception jeopardized by the Catholic exemption? In no way would a woman's freedom in this respect be infringed simply because her employer was free to choose not to pay for her contraceptive products and services. (See last week's TGIF on why volitional acts such as contraception and other preventive measures are neither free nor insurable.)
Yet advocates of Obamacare insist on conflating these issues. They repeatedly portray opposition to forced financing of contraception as opposition to contraception itself. (Alas, some conservatives have encouraged this conflation.) Must the difference really be spelled out?
This sort of argument is nothing new, of course. In The Law (1850), Frederic Bastiat noted that advocates of government-run schools accused those who opposed them of being against education itself.
Prohibitive Expense
When pressed, proponents of "free" employer-provided contraception claim (as though this were responsive) that many women can't afford birth control and that insurance companies would save money by giving it away. (Why haven't the insurers thought of that?)
Taking these in reverse order, the second argument begs the question. Insurance companies allegedly would save money because they wouldn't have to pay for medical services associated with having children. That assumes that if the insurer were not providing free contraception, women would have to do without. But that is precisely what is in dispute. Why assume that?
As for the claim about the allegedly prohibitive expense, one may properly ask how that could justify forcing others to pay. It's amusing to watch advocates of free contraception cite as evidence for their position polls showing that women overwhelmingly support no-cost contraception. Since when have people not wanted free stuff? Women have managed to obtain birth control up until now (we're repeatedly told that nearly all women, including Catholics, have used it), and low-income women can resort to Planned Parenthood if necessary, which already gets taxpayer money (which is not to say it should).
When a "Right" Is Not a Right
What we have in this debate is a clash not between two liberty interests, but rather between two rights-claims – one negative (genuine), the other positive (counterfeit). All that is required for the exercise of a negative right (to self-ownership and, redundantly, liberty and one's legitimately acquired belongings) is other people's noninterference. ("When we say that one has the right to do certain things we mean this and only this, that it would be immoral for another, alone or in combination, to stop him from doing this by the use of physical force or the threat thereof," writes James A. Sadowsky, S.J.) But the fulfillment of positive rights requires that other people act affirmatively even if they don't want to — say, by providing products or paying the bills. If one person's freedom depends on the infringement of someone else's freedom, the first claim is illegitimate. To hold otherwise is to reject the principle of equality.
Women have the right to contraception (and any other product) in the sense that they have a right to spend their money on it or to try to persuade someone else to do so. There can be no right to force (or have the government force) others to pay. (Aside #2: It's curious to see feminists asking the male-dominated State for "free" birth control.)
This controversy is not about contraception. It's about freedom versus compulsion.
As long as that bad ingredient – the principle that government may coerce people to buy things for others – is baked into the cake, it will be rotten no matter how it's nicely decorated.
Sheldon Richman is editor of The Freeman, where this column originally appeared.
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This controversy is not about contraception. It's about freedom versus compulsion.
And here you rubes thought that the feminist Left wanted the federales out of a woman's womb.
A recent note left behind in one cabin warned, "Get off my mountain."
Marauding mountain man continues to elude capture
The Associated Press
Feb. 17, 2012
http://www.pressherald.com/news/Mount.....bins-.html
"You might even say that barbarians operate at a meta-level: they plant and harvest value out of civilizations. They are civilization farmers, just as they are animal herders."
The Return of the Barbarian
by Venkat
March 10, 2011
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/03/10/.....barbarian/
WHERE'S THAT PISSANT PUSSCAKE OL' DOMESTICATED MEXICAN POODLE MEWLING ABOUT HIS PROJECTED FEAR OF WILDERNESS?
Wait...your mountain? How is this ownership established and enforced?
Turnabout is fair play, eh?
What goes up, must come down.
Let the spinning wheel turn round and round.
Fibertarians need Monty Python's Argument Clinic
Just to drown out any dissent.
Did somebody start the party without me?
It looks like the pigs are gamboling just like the farmer used to...and in his house, too!
So is this property right of yours something new?
That is, if you're white.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
But Jesus wants us to be good Calvinist Capitalists. It's the only way to heaven, or transhumanist singularity (big difference!)
Liberards shit it all up here.
Rand is right, no? By your own admission, I think.
What else do you expect from somebody who based their philosophy of selfishness on a serial child killer?
ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand's First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls
http://exiledonline.com/atlas-.....nds-heart/
I've read that before, too. It's bullshit, like everything else you post here, WI.
I see the others are spot-on. You're a kook and I'm a fool for trying to talk sensibly with you.
Turn off the computer, strip naked and go gambol in the woods, WI. I'm not standing in your way.
"Sweep aside those parasites...
~Ayn "Pol Pot" Rand
Pol Pot's goal was "restarting civilization" at "year Zero."
Maybe Pol Pot read Ayn Rand? She had the same murderous fantasy: blow the whole thing up and start over.
Pol Pot wanted to:?
(a) "restart civilization"?
(b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences?
(c)and punishing and starving out people he regarded as subhumans?
(d) at Year Zero.
Ayn Rand wanted also to:?
(a) restart civilization?
(b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences?
(c) and punishing and starving out people she regarded as subhumans
?(d) with a wave of the dollar brand cigarette.
Not much difference. But what else would you expect from a philosophical movement inspired by a serial child killer?
two at a time
Abusing all Mother Earth's life.
Stop crying and get back on all fours
like a good little godesky
Unfortunatly First Nations people did have property rights befroe the 1823 decision Johnson v Mi'Inoch. Many colonists and early settlers purchased land from the aborigenal population who practiced agriculture. In much of the west First Nations did not own land but neather did the first trappers, or ranchers. Since land was plentiful anyone who was nomadic could move where they pleased and anyone who wanted to settle could settle on a small plot.
The tribal institution of "Ownership by use" on the other hand, suggests simply that one can only "own" those things that they put to immediate, direct and personal use to meet basic needs?and not more. A society crosses the memetic Rubicon when it accepts the abstraction that ownership can extend beyond the exclusive needs of one individual for survival. (Read Jason Godesky on Ownership) Abstract ownership begins when society accepts a claim of symbolic control of something without the requirement of immediate, direct and personal use. Hierarchy, at any level, requires this excess, abstract ownership?it represents the symbolic capital that forms the foundation of all stratification.
~Jeff Vail
Attorney at Law
"A Theory of Power"
Chapter 9 - Forward, to Rhizome
http://www.jeffvail.net/2005/03/theor.....nline.html
The tribal institution of "Ownership by use" on the other hand, suggests simply that one can only "own" those things that they put to immediate, direct and personal use to meet basic needs?and not more.
A society crosses the memetic Rubicon when it accepts the abstraction that ownership can extend beyond the exclusive needs of one individual for survival. (Read Jason Godesky on Ownership) Abstract ownership begins when society accepts a claim of symbolic control of something without the requirement of immediate, direct and personal use. Hierarchy, at any level, requires this excess, abstract ownership?it represents the symbolic capital that forms the foundation of all stratification.
"A Theory of Power" Online
Chapter 9 - Forward, to Rhizome
http://www.jeffvail.net/2005/0.....nline.html
If the concept of property doesn't extend beyond the survival needs of one individual, society is forced into a state of survival and forced to remain there.
If surplus is not protected, we've got nothing, ever, forever. Innovation can only happen in the presence of surplus because surplus goods equates to free time to invent. Surplus, and only surplus, allows specialization... an excellent hunter with a surplus can trade with an excellent weaver for clothing. The only thing that allows for experimentation is a surplus. I can't try a new way of preserving food if I don't have extra food because I can't risk having it spoil. A surplus makes the development of agriculture possible. If I can not keep my surplus goat because she is more than I need to feed myself, then I can not learn to raise a herd of goats.
I sort of hate to point it out, but if you look at cultures without ownership, they are stuck at pre-agricultural survival levels. And at this point in the world they're freeloading off the advancements in science, medicine and technology, made by other cultures.
The same is true with a unit larger than "individual". If a family has division of labor, as a whole they rely on individually producing a surplus and then maintaining control of that surplus. If it's family, extended family, clan or tribal group, it all still relies on property rights over a surplus. Nothing happens but more hand-to-mouth survival until there is a way to provide for specialized trades and enough wiggle room for waste generated by experimentation. There are centralized and oppressive ways of doing that, and there are ways of doing that which don't offend liberty or self-determination.
Original AFFLUENT Society
by Marshall Sahlins
http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
So stop with the Hobbesian mythology already. It's been thoroughly debunked, Fibertarian.
Original AFFLUENT Society
by Marshall Sahlins
http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
So stop with the Hobbesian mythology already. It's been thoroughly debunked, Fibertarian.
If the concept of property doesn't extend beyond the survival needs of one individual, society is forced into a state of survival and forced to remain there.
If surplus is not protected, we've got nothing, ever, forever. Innovation can only happen in the presence of surplus because surplus goods equates to free time to invent. Surplus, and only surplus, allows specialization... an excellent hunter with a surplus can trade with an excellent weaver for clothing. The only thing that allows for experimentation is a surplus. I can't try a new way of preserving food if I don't have extra food because I can't risk having it spoil. A surplus makes the development of agriculture possible. If I can not keep my surplus goat because she is more than I need to feed myself, then I can not learn to raise a herd of goats.
I sort of hate to point it out, but if you look at cultures without ownership, they are stuck at pre-agricultural survival levels. And at this point in the world they're freeloading off the advancements in science, medicine and technology, made by other cultures.
Original AFFLUENT Society
by Marshall Sahlins
http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
So stop with the Hobbesian mythology already. It's been thoroughly debunked, Fibertarian.
Transvestite Troll Tries Third Time? I think I may have fed this one too many times already.I think the substance of the argument IT is trying to regurgitate is,(if I can read into the copy and paste/selective capitalization)that Ayn Rand was a racist who thought property rights were something invented by and applying exclusively to white people rather than being,as they are,the most basic of human rights and something ALL people and societies need to respect. Any person or group of people that doesn't acknowledge or protect the property rights of others has basically said that might makes right and therefore has no right to complain when a more powerful group comes along and takes from your gang what your gang has taken from a less powerful one a little bit earlier.If property rights exist no one can take what belongs to another,if the reverse is true and might makes right,why is this TEDIOUS FUCKTARD applying an obvious double standard;PROPERTY RIGHTS DON'T EXIST IN YOUR WORLD,WHEN THE MOST POWERFUL GANG WINS THE UNIVERSE SHOULD BE BALANCED BY YOUR STANDARDS.I am pro-choice 110% in this particular instance even extending to the 200th or 300th trimester if need be,the human soul is not determined by genetics so much as it is by whether or not you have the capacity for reason and intelligent thought.If I was able to use genetic engineering to create a hybrid that was 75% human/25%cucumber or even 99% human/1%cucumber(a range of possibilities I suspect our friend above "mr.property rights=right to take" would probably fall into)I would still be forced forced to burn the lab along with all my priceless 5 assed mongooses and baboons if one of my creations showed this level of stupidity.99% HUMAN/1%CUCUMBER=TIME FOR AN ABORTION.The funny thing is this clueless rat bastard probably marched around for a good part of last year with a sign that said "I AM THE 99%"with out a hint of irony.
"To date, however, no philosopher has ever successfully divorced Lockesian property rights from MONOTHEISM."
The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky | 18 July 2005
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....-property/
lol keep quoting yourself dumbass.
And judging by the picture, Godesky (you) has (have) a long way to go before any reasonable "rewilding"
...no matter if I'm a skunk.
Locke's Divine Right of Property is as intellectually valid as the Divine Right of Kings.
"To date, however, no philosopher has ever successfully divorced Lockesian property rights from MONOTHEISM."
The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky | 18 July 2005
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....-property/
When his mom is away on business.
Libertards can't think of anything else.
Libertards can't think of anything else.
Liberards really shit it all up here.
This is like the worst chat room ever.
A recent note left behind in one cabin warned, "Get off my mountain."
OK, so I'm gonna be the big stick-in-the-mud asshole here:
Why do you people do this shit?
Why don't you go start your own site to hold these insidery, meta-comment fights? Why do you clog up the Reason threads with this crap? I'm talking about every one of you who initiates, responds and prolongs this bullshit in the threads here.
Fuck almighty. ENOUGH. This was a post about the nature of positive and negative rights. Talk about THAT. Stop clogging up these threads with random bullshit. Stop diverting the threads out of the gate with your random bullshit. Don't force people to scroll through half a page of off-topic bullshit to find the handful of relevant responses.
You know, it's kind of weird: Reason is perhaps the country's leading libertarian institution. But there are eight gazillion less-"leading" websites where you can go for comment threads that are consistently immersed in discussion about libertarian ideas. (Including Sheldon Richman's The Freeman, fittingly enough.) Here you get it only piecemeal -- the periodic comments from the Hazel Meades et al.
I don't get it.
Yeah, I know... I suck. I'm not a good sport. I'm not a good community player. I am, as I said, a stick in the mud. But damn. This was a really interesting column, and I know there are smart people here who can say smart things about it, and it sucks to dive into the comments only to encounter yet another round of random, off-topic, internecine crap.
I'm relatively new here and I completely agree.
LOL
There is a (or a small number of) particular troll (s) who come here specifically grief and shit all over the threads.
They will spoof handles and sockpuppet themselves to look like what we have here. With these types of threads, you can be safe in believing that the meta-threads are written by one person, regardless of the number of handles used.
This is where the people are. Since it's all about attention, doing their thing on an empty website would not serve their purpose.
This is where the people are. Since it's all about attention...
Lets' be cruel and honest: H&R is all about narcissism. So is Twitter. So is Facebook. Millions of people chatting about absolutely nothing.
Chatting with people is fine (even about nothing important), but the trolls take it to another level by essentially shouting "BLAH BLAH BLAH LISTEN TO ME" into a megaphone at a coffeeshop.
Agreed TomD. This thread is a prime example, almost nothing here worth reading. Not every post needs to be on-topic but it would be good if it was at least 50/50.
The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"
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It goes without saying that positive rights are simply a tool of tyrants.
They want to make you do something. So they claim others have a right to make you do it. It's very simple.
Is any white person's RIGHT TO TAKE a fucking positive right? Eh?
Just askin', as if any libertard has the backbone to answer, instead of evade.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
...but not for thee.
Cuz you ain't white, injun.
go away
LOL
go away
libertard done pissed his panties
shut up rectal
shut up rectal
shut up rectal
shut up rectal
shut up rectal
libertard evasion like a creationist
Loves black cock even more.
Ahhh FUCK! Here we fucking go again!
JUST STOP FUCKING REPLYING TO IT!
Franco! Franco!
Weird how Rand picked that name at that time, eh?
"We the Living was the closest she would ever come to writing an autobiography. Her working title for the novel had been Airtight. We the Living was first completed in 1934..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_Living
Rand herself?says to a Bolshevik: "I loathe your ideals. I admire your methods. If one believes one's right, one shouldn't wait to convince millions of fools, one might just as well FORCE them."
How Ayn Rand Became an American Icon?
The perverse allure of a damaged woman.
?By Johann Hari | Nov. 2, 2009
?http://www.slate.com/id/2233966/
...After returning to the Spanish mainland, he saw service suppressing an anarchist-led strike in 1934, defending the stability of Alcal?-Zamora's conservative government...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
or, as in my case, you're just tired of being outraged.
Liberards have no outrage over the original Land Regulation.
Why not?
go away
weak
shut up rectal
me no thinkie
shut up rectal
(This is what "argument" with liberards is reduced to. Hurrah!)
Why agriculture? In retrospect, it seems odd that it has taken archaeologists and paleontologists so long to begin answering this essential question of human history. What we are today?civilized, city-bound, overpopulated, literate, organized, wealthy, poor, diseased, conquered, and conquerors?is all rooted in the domestication of plants and animals. The advent of farming re-formed humanity. In fact, the question "Why agriculture?" is so vital, lies so close to the core of our being that it probably cannot be asked or answered with complete honesty. Better to settle for calming explanations of the sort Stephen Jay Gould calls "just-so stories."
In this case, the core of such stories is the assumption that agriculture was better for us. Its surplus of food allowed the leisure and specialization that made civilization. Its bounty settled, refined, and educated us, freed us from the nasty, mean, brutish, and short existence that was the state of nature, freed us from hunting and gathering. Yet when we think about agriculture, and some people have thought intently about it, the pat story glosses over a fundamental point. This just-so story had to have sprung from the imagination of someone who never hoed a row of corn or rose with the sun for a lifetime of milking cows. GAMBOLING ABOUT PLAIN AND FOREST, hunting and living off the land is fun. Farming is not. That's all one needs to know to begin a rethinking of the issue. The fundamental question was properly phrased by Colin Tudge of the London School of Economics: "The real problem, then, is not to explain why some people were slow to adopt agriculture but why anybody took it up at all."
[p. 24]
Perhaps this question is best considered against the immense backdrop of the Great Wall of China. According to long-held theory, the Chinese nation conscripted so much forced and slave labor into building the Great Wall in order to protect itself from barbarian hordes?nomads--to the west. To be sure, the Mongols were a problem throughout Chinese history. But some scholars have advanced a different theory: that the wall was built not so much to keep the Mongols out as to keep Chinese peasants in. Certainly anyone who got a good look at equestrian life on the steppe would prefer it to stoop labor in the rice paddies of that intensely hierarchical society.
[p. 44]
~Richard Manning
Against the Grain
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-A.....0865476225
Hey, Jason... how you gonna feed 6.8 billion people via foraging?
Awaiting your stupid answer... or news of your suicide, which would be met here with much rejoicing.
it's rectal.
Don't go PELOSI on me, Mr. FIFY.
Who cares how 7 billion aggressors will be fed?
[Mother Nature] must be UNLEASHED, and allowed to administer instant punishment...Again: UNLEASH [Mother Nature] to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?
~Murray Rothbard
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch5.html
Please, don't fucking beg, Mistress FIFY. Justice, served cold.
go away, rectal
Shit man, which are you more scared of?
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Do you want to answer the question, or post a nonsequitor?
Feel free to post more nonsequitors, as you never actually post answers relevant to questions asked of you.
The pretense of Libertard Argument: call it a non-sequitor.
I'd pay five bucks to watch an on-air witch-burning, Jason.
So don't EVEN fucking compare me to Pelosi, you stupid cunt.
Go back to not living the shackbrah life.
Mr. FIFY and Ms. PELOSI both civilizationist (city-STATIST) progressivists.
Because city-Statism (civilization) is about anything but INDIVIDUAL AUTONOMY and SOVEREIGNTY to a liberard/Pelosi city-Statist.
"Historically, people in non-state societies are relatively AUTONOMOUS AND SOVEREIGN. They generate their own subsistence with little or no assistance from outside sources. They bow to no external political leaders. Nor are they routinely exploited by outsiders."
~Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.
* NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf
*yawn*
and Richard Manning
and Ayn Rand (she wanted to have a penis)
I think that this stuff is made up by people who have never farmed and who have never hunted and have not the first clue how entirely miserable living off the land can be. Hunting off the land is fun? Do it without a rifle, without a tent and gear from an upscale supplier, and it's cold and hard and miserable and when you can't find game you watch your children die.
Farming can only being to happen in a state of plenty... plenty of game, plenty to eat, no starving babies... because a state of plenty allows investment. Farming is investment. We don't eat the goat *now*, we feed it and breed it so that when we're hungry we have food. Because we have *plenty* we can plant the seed instead of eat it, we can hang around and chase off the birds and rodents who want to eat our crops, and then we can harvest and store enough so that we have *plenty* all winter.
Having plenty all winter means that time can be spent working on tools or figuring out how to weave fibers into cloth or making a tool to weave fiber into cloth.
Better tools means growing a surplus, better storage means having a surplus, and a surplus means the ability to specialize, allowing a weaver to weave for more than just herself, or a potter to spend more time collecting the best clay and making pots for more than himself, in trade for surplus food grown by the farmer.
Property rights protect the surplus. If we don't protect the surplus we've got no margin to do anything at all, no scientific advancement and no charity, no better tools, no specialization.
I really wish that people so incredibly stupid as to glorify subsistence hunting would try it once. They'd quickly starve to death and put us out of our misery.
The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"
Its time to tax these fucking churches like any other institution. Being stupid is not an excuse for tax exemption.
stupidist comment of the day. Apparently, in this case, the Catholic Church is carrying the water for liberty for the rest of us. Yeah, tax them cuz I don't like them. How about not tax the rest of us instead of taxing them?
Liberty = Catholic Church? Don't make me laugh. Those bastards despise liberty while they bugger their slave boys.
And dream on if you think all taxes will fall to zero. Your/mine taxes will fall if these boy butt-fuckers pay their fair share.
For Institutions of City-Statist Morality.
go away
that's reason readers MARKET FUNDIES for ya
go away
make them stop mommy dearest please
you are to be pitied
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
I'm not like Pelosi. LOL
That's Mister, you sniveling cunt.
Which, by the way, also describes Pelosi.
Seriously... comparing me, to a socialistic sociopath like Nancy. Really stretching there, Jason.
Let's raise taxes.
Projecting again, shrike?
thinks he's clever
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Already knew about it, whoever the fuck you are.
LOL
who care's about "who" except somebody who doesn't comprehend "what" "where" and "when?"
dipshit
"Your/mine taxes will fall if these boy butt-fuckers pay their fair share."
I want some of what you're smoking.
Dream on if you think the government will cut taxes just because revenues increase.
Shrike was one of the buggered adolescents. More and more, it's plain to see.
Cornholer Abusers always have an excuse.
So, shrike has an excuse?
Whodathunkit?
OK, there's some sense to this. On the other hand, if Churches are the same as any other assembly of people, why are some people trying to remove their symbols from all public property?
Churches are treated differently because, hard as this may be for a modern atheist to accept, they have in the past been a necessary bulwark against abuse of the power of the State. Often enough to merit special treatment.
On the other hand if you want to extend the logic to all other non-profit organisations whose positions and goals are matters of faith rather than proof, I could go with that.
If only because I'd love to hear the screams of outrage from nutters like PETA.
earth-ling n. - One who inhabits the earth.
Since we all inhabit the earth, we are all considered earthlings.
http://www.earthlings.com/
"Churches are treated differently because...they have in the past been a necessary bulwark against abuse of the power of the State"
huh??
Huh? For most of history, religion has been a tool of power used by tyrants and kings.
Sure, go ahead and tax the profits the Catholic church makes.
Quite the little dictator aren't you?
Man I really enjoy Sheldon Richman's articles. I would love to be able to get this distinction between positive and negative rights through the thick skulls of my statist minded friends.
Is any white person's RIGHT TO TAKE a fucking positive right? Eh?
Just askin', as if any libertard has the backbone to answer, instead of evade.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... any white person who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent."
~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
Answered above tedious fucktard.
Answered above tedious fucktard.
Jason Godesky is the archpriest.
Hey guys, which is better a Mac or a PC?
Tulpa,
Way to end the week on a contentious note. This will be a 2000 comment thread by Tuesday!
It will not. Mac users are obviously all communists, and as such would not be caught dead on H&R unless it is to troll us.
What about Linux?
http://www.google.com/imgres?u.....CEMQrQMwAA
I have to say, the quality of faux-motivational posters has gone down hill a lot since back in the day.
Windows for gaming, Linux for serving, Mac OSX for desktop (and Civ V). I don't give a fuck.
(pictures, music, stuff that's beautiful)
Is this the iPad 3's Retina Display?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-2707.....a-display/
Yeah, that too.
Google slammed for latest privacy breach
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_19990444
everything is beautiful if you open your mind enough. so no choice required?
I would love to be able to get this distinction between positive and negative rights through the thick skulls of my statist minded friends.
Well good luck with that.
Not going to hold my breath!
I think contraceptives should be treated like preventative medicine and covered as such instead of being looked at as some sort of luxury. Women's ability to get pregnant from having sex is a symptom of our anatomy, if men got a potentially unwanted consequence (not talking about STDs) every time they had sex, i bet we would cover items to prevent that from happening.
Honey make your boyfriend spring for a pack instead of roses.
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
I think contraceptives should be treated like preventative medicine and covered as such instead of being looked at as some sort of luxury.
I think you ought to Kra-Z-Glu your stinking gash shut, to spare the rest of us from ever having to worry about what goes into or comes out of your crotch.
That's not very civil! Someone came here with a different viewpoint and you attack them personally instead of saying why you disagree. Way to go dickbag.
Eat the peanuts out of my shit, you white knight douchebag.
nobody expects the spanish inquisition
Hey Torquemada, whaddya say?
Please keep posting here. This is not sarcasm.
preventative medicine... like tooth paste? Think of how much money we could save if we handed out free tooth paste to everyone. Of course poor people can't afford tooth paste so they have high incidence of decay, we need most of all to guard against tooth decay for the poorest, we need free tooth paste.
You know what really sucks? If you don't drink any liquids for a few days you'll die. In the name of humanity, we need to supply free diet coke to everyone (because we know the poorest won't drink water) so we make sure that we all don't die.
I like the cut of your jib!*
*or gib, whatever.
It's jib. Definitely jib.
Thought it was Gibb, after the Brothers Gibb.
Amen. Why doesn't Soetoro force insurance companies to provide people with "free" toothpaste?
And "free" aspirin.
And "free" sunblock.
And "free" vitamins.
And "free" gym memberships.
pissant city-statists with poor teeth?
you're the only tiny culture of a single species to brush your teeth, because you eat grain and sugar
fuckwits
What's your point?
What's your point?
Your post (#2848127) has been marked as spam by a third-party spam filter. If this is a mistake, please email webmaster@reason.com.
Dogbreath. Is that your daddy third picture down?
Wolves & Dogs
by Jason Godesky | 13 November 2006
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....index.html
and Jason Godesky
"Wolves don't use toothbrushes"
which is why they smell like shit.
The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"
Don't give him any ideas.
How about Diet Dr. Pepper?
Why not also require public provision of food? People need food to stay alive.
Only if the fucktard capitalists claim to "OWN" all air.
Money, i.e. POWER or LORDING IT OVER OTHERS, is the root of all evil.
where does money (i.e., root of all evil) come from?
can't eat it
can't breath it
can't drink it
Like "indulgences" or "taxes," money is important only in a symbolic SCAM cultural framework.
so to self organizing tribes we go, bartering with one another for the things we truly need?
And you can't tell, dimwit?
You're just like Ms. Pelosi, claiming it has never been any other way.
ah, name calling. Always the tell in a losing argument.
Libertard drew first blood.
Trautman: You're goddamn lucky WI didn't kill all of you.
If "women's ability to get pregnant from having sex is a symptom of our anatomy", are you saying that being female is an illness?
Birth control is not preventative health care because pregnancy is not a disease; it's a condition that someone may choose to avoid. Your choice, your money.
Women have access to birth control; we can go into any pharmacy and buy it. I am really bewildered as to why the left thinks that this should be provided to us free of charge. Why this, of all things?
Paying off a constituency and pandering to the rest of a potential constituency. Election year.
Money buys the political power it wants.
As soon as this became an issue, Santorum started rising in the polls. Santorum is one of the least likely winners in the general election among the GOP field. The Stupid Party is easily manipulated, film at 11.
EXACTLY. It's not that hard, ladies, just get off your ass & do it.
I want free Pall Mall Filters.
of course, you have the right to buy that in your plan. And i should have to the right to sell you a plan that doesn't cover it. You can choose to buy it or not.
May I assume that you are not Catholic?
I think contraceptives should be treated like preventative medicine and covered as such instead of being looked at as some sort of luxury.
How about a hysterectomy? That's preventative, one-time, and you'll never have to worry about taking a pill.
What, like 18 years of financial slavery?
If it is preventative, let insurance companies offer it by free choice. No need to coerce them.
What's really going on is that the left wishes to make birth control an entitlement. Everyone get's free birth control, and the cost is socialized via insurance premiums, which you are forced to pay.
What is actually going on is Team Blue politicians are putting contraceptives, a long dormant and settled matter in politics, back into the cultural war because they have a strong hand against whacked out bozos like Santorum who are stupid enough to engage them on it instead of hitting them where Team Blue is crippled beyond repair, like economics.
The blues cant run on any kind of record that puts them in a good light. Culture war cranked to eleventy and bluetards raging with redtards responding with rage is the tactic. Show popcorn doom ect.
You're right it should be treated teh same a preentative medicine, which most people should pay for out of pocket because it is all foreseeable and most people can plan for those expenses.
I thought the argument for mandated health coverage was that medical stuff is impossible to plan for for most people. Well things like contraception and preventative care can be planned for.
"I think contraceptives should be treated like preventative medicine and covered as such instead of being looked at as some sort of luxury."
Back your assumptions up two steps. You're starting past the point where we accept without question that other people should pay for our health care.
On what basis? Because it's not a luxury? We don't use that as a test of what other people ought to be forced to give us for free.
Should we be forced to pay for the non-luxury wants of other people?
Should we even be forced to pay for the basic needs of other people?
Maybe a person could argue that failing to save a life, when one has the ability to save that life, is the same as murder, but we're a long way from paying for contraception at that point, I think.
Yes, in a lot of ways biology gave women the short stick. Bearing children is a stress on your body, and both pregnancy and nursing limit mobility to the point of extreme vulnerability. It is, however, the biological hand we were dealt.
Luckily we've got all sorts of inexpensive, easily available, and mostly safe things we can do to keep from getting pregnant.
None of that explains why anyone else should have to pay for it. And it sure doesn't explain why someone with a moral conviction opposing it should have to pay for it.
White Grandfather Cuffed For Walking With Black Granddaughter
http://newsone.com/newsone-ori.....ddaughter/
as much as I want to hold the cops responsible for this shit, it always starts with some idiot busy-body who reports it in the first place. Maybe before calling the cops, you spend a little time ascertaining if the kid looks like she is being kidnapped? If she's with grandpa, she probably isn't acting scared.
Of course, it could be some bigot that just wants to give the guy shit for having a black kid, so he calls the cops, makes a fuss.
I also love the grandpa's response to 'we've only been here 2 minutes', yeah, there are 9 of you so you've been here 18 minutes. That's great.
I wonder if the same proponents of this mandate would be supportive of a USDA mandate that required madrassas offer pork on their lunch menu in the name of providing kids a balanced diet. Somehow I doubt it.
I'm no fan of any organized religion, but as someone who believes the Bill of Rights is sacrosanct, I don't believe the government has any more right to force Catholic institutions to provide birth control than to force Jews and Muslims to eat pork.
And you don't look much like a steer, Brian.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Should cats be declawed?
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Should you tip your waiter?
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Does 0.9999... = 1?
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Yes.
Depends on what comes after the fourth 9.
Ellipsis is the "ya know what I mean" of the math world. 1,2,3,... can be the positive integers or the noncomposite integers, for instance. Sequence guessing is impossible.
Ellipsis means that the last digit (or group of digits, marked by a dot above the first digit of the repeating group) repeats.
No; repetition requires a bar over the repeating pattern, even if it's only one digit. A bare ellipsis means "you know what I mean". Don't tell me you've never seen 3.14159.... or 2.71828.... written for pi and e.
Pi r square? Everybody knows that pi r round.
I've never seen the dot over the first digit of the repeater before, but it's an unambiguous notation, so it sounds legit.
I don't like ellipsis under any circumstance though. Use sigma notation.
And of course, once you use sigma notation for that number it becomes obvious why they're equal, because the limit of the partial sums is obviously equal to 1 (and thus so is the sum itself). I flerking hate that "paradox" because it's not even a paradox, it's just an illusion produced by ambiguous notation.
Yeah, it's silly that people think that is an interesting question. It is so easy to resolve even without any notation beyond what any 9th grader should know.
Technically, 0.999999 ... could refer to a number that approaches infinitely close to 1.0 without being that number.
aw geez not this shit again. go away rectal
Here's to Tim Wakefield!
Bravo, well done.
I only saw him pitch live once, and he got killed by the A's, 7-0 or something but it was pretty fucking entertaining to watch that ball fall off the table.
Is circumcision okay?
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Veganism
go away, rectal
go away, rectal
Dog Poop
go away, rectal
buttheir
Is that someone who inherits the behind?
go away, rectal
http://www.google.com/imgres?u.....CEUQrQMwAA
Employing people is a positive right. But we're supposed to ignore that.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
How's that? No on e is obliged to provide you with employees.
Jeremy Lin seeks to trademark 'Linsanity,' but he's in for a fight
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.c.....or-a-fight
So I should copyright 'He's BALLIN'?
By this line of reasoning I suppose a Christian Scientist organization (no matter how big) wouldn't have to provide any health care. And if I declared my business that I would be exempt. Maybe GM should do that and save all that health care money they're shelling out.
No one should have to provide healthcare. Encouraging the linkage of employment and insurance through favorable tax treatment is one of the reasons things got so screwed up. Get sick, lose your job, lose your existing insurance, and no one wants to give you a new policy because you're already sick. If it was an individual policy, you would have been fine, and might have even been able to roll disability coverage into it to deal with the job loss.
? "Universal Koch Oil pollution is good.
? Universal asthma opportunities are good.
? Universal birth defect opportunities are good.
? Universal health care for the victims, not so much. LOLOLOL
We thank you for your KOCHsucking.
On the plus side, perhaps this would prompt Catholic insitutions to stop offering health insurance to their employees entirely.
Except doesn't Obamacare require employers (over a certain size) to provide healthcare insurance?
Should it?
No.
'Attackers cavorted with prostitutes'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.....933625.cms
As usual, Bill Whittle's latest video is a knockout. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvLZ-M_HS-w
One of the things he mentioned was that "rights" are inherently truly free and there aren't a "rights" to free stuff. One has a right to free speech but not a right to free medical care. Free or reduced price stuff are privileges.
Of course, there is no "free" stuff. Why should a celibate man pay for the morning after pill for a promiscuous, irresponsible 18 year old?
Even more important a distinction;
You have a right to speak freely. You do NOT have a right to an audience. You have a right to print what you like. Getting it printed is your own lookout.
Preventing somebody from saying or printing something you don't like is censorship.
Declining to PAY for same is thrift.
...for white man's supposed "RIGHT TO TAKE."
Santorum rides wave of support into key contests, as Romney tries to undercut his momentum
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....-contests/
I'm having a flashback to the Iran-Iraa war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOEnctICcs
Watch those fingers, guy.
Starcraft III is going to suck. It is going to be the same thing as Starcraft I with new graphics. You're all losers.
Hey, I'm new to computers. I'm at a local library right now. My friend said that I have to clean out my computer, thats why it was so slow. So I opened my computer and scrubbed with soap and water, and now its not working. Does anyone know why?
You have to send it to the dry cleaner.
Buy David Guetta's hit album "Nothing But the Beat" feat the hit singles "Where Them Girls At" feat Flo Rida + Nicki Minaj, "Without You" feat Usher and the new single "Turn Me On" feat Nicki Minaj: http://bit.ly/pBKIii
Global hit-maker + superstar DJ David Guetta's hot new single "Where Them Girls At" ft. Flo-Rida + Nicki Minaj.
"Nothing But The Beat" - Guetta's highly anticipated album - out 29th August 2011.
Music video by David Guetta performing Where Them Girls At. Director: Dave Meyers. (C) 2011 What a Music Ltd / EMI Music France, Licence exclusive EMI Music France
Category:
Not exactly
"GAMBOLING ABOUT PLAIN AND FOREST, hunting and living off the land is fun."
So go fucking DO it, Jason.
Me, I'm gonna shop for food at the grocery store, like a civilized human.
From what I've observed, he is incapable of living the lifestyle he says is best for everyone else.
Why have you people put up with him this long? It must be infuriating.
What of the second question?why don't primitivists run off into the woods already?
5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They're Wrong
by Jason Godesky | 26 October 2005
http://www.rewild.info/anthrop.....yre-wrong/
Jason argues with himself. Man, this is gold for any half-assed psychoanalyst.
The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"
I recommend that his first project be a dug-out laptop.
5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They're Wrong
by Jason Godesky | 26 October 2005
1. Isn't it hypocritical of primitivists to use modern technology? If they want to live primitively so badly, why don't they just run off into the woods already and do it?
[...]
http://www.rewild.info/anthrop.....yre-wrong/
women overwhelmingly support no-cost contraception.
Men overwhelmingly support free beer.
No shit!
Who wants to be named after a spanish dickKOCHtator, anyway?
Much in the same way my friend Joseph is named for Joseph Stalin.
God, I know my usual "prove to me that you are real" test is texting me the winning lottery numbers. I can see why this is a problem, because I would just spend it on women and booze. Then I would waste the rest.
So accordingly, I'm changing my request: Oh God, if you are in fact the omnipotent and omniscient being your followers claim you are, then prove it to me by granting this one request: banish the trolls from Hit and Run, oh lord of hosts. Cleanse our beloved threads of rectal and Tony and White Indian especially. In your name, I pray. Amen.
Amen brother!
Is any white person's RIGHT TO TAKE a positive right?
Is ANY WHITE PERSON's right a collective or individual right?
Come on now! I'm just askin', as if any libertard has the backbone to answer, instead of evade.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
Too bad the indians didn't have property rights, they might have understood what was going on then.
Oh, but they needed some shyster law skool trainin' to be "human" and not an "it" to be slaughtered, eh?
Stalin would be proud of your evasion of human morality, Jeffersonian.
But if the indians didn't recognize such a thing as private property, then there was no such thing as "their" land, no?
It's like that scene in "Midnight Cowboy" where Ratso was stuffing his pockets with food and a woman told him he didn't have to steal it, it was free. His logical reply was, that if it was free, he wasn't stealing it.
So you're all worked up that the honkeys came and stole something that never belonged to anyone?
Only STATISTS recognize abstract "ownership" (control by force) of the land.
uhhh...no.
Absent property rights, property will necessarily belong to whomever is able to best murder those who have it and society will quickly degenerate into poverty, disease and violence, pretty much what the indians were living with when Europeans got here. QED?
Humans lived for 2 million years in the Original AFFLUENT Society.*
You're just parroting Hobbesian mythology that supports city-Statism. Poverty, disease, and violence are trademarks of civilization, not Non-State society.**
* The Original Affluent Society
Marshall Sahlins, University of Chicago
http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
** NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf
Those unable to understand History (otherwise known as breaking your leg chasing a deer at age 20 and dying slowly of sepsis with the understanding that your children will starve to death if they aren't lucky enough to get killed by a wolf and eaten) are doomed to repeat it.
I know it's hopeless to convince WI, but I just like to see that there are anthropologists out there who don't accept Sahlins' thesis.
The Darker Side of the "Original Affluent Society"
Goddammit.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3631086
It happens with property rights, too. Been to downtown Philly lately?
baaaahhhh
BAAAHHHHH
Oh, and the "genocide" thing is bullshit. Noted ofay Ward Churchill tried to peddle that crap, too, and got his leftist ass tossed out of his cushy sinecure for falsifying his research.
Is ANY WHITE PERSON's right a collective or individual right?
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
Individual. And Rand was right...the indians themselves didn't claim to own the land, so by definition it couldn't be stolen.
So by definition CANDY FROM A BABY couldn't be stolen.
Libetards are thieves. Lying thieves, but always thieves.
So by definition CANDY FROM A BABY couldn't be stolen.
Idiotic. Of course it can, as the society in which the baby lives recognizes property and the child's right to it. Not even the adult indians knew anything about property, making them essentially a society of babies, as you seem to imply.
You call innocence of your shysterism being "naive." So do confidence men.
Uh, you're trying to use logic with vermin shit?
Don't work; gotta be revelation.
Uh, you're trying to use logic with vermin shit?
Just trying to see how dishonest he really is.
Jeffersonian|2.17.12 @ 9:52PM|#
"Uh, you're trying to use logic with vermin shit?"
-------
"Just trying to see how dishonest he really is."
Help yourself, but dishonesty is the least of vermin shit's problems.
Its 'arguments' are certainly as dishonest as shithead's, but you have to add an ignorance of such depths that patently obvious hypocrisy is claimed to be, well, other than patently obvious hypocrisy.
To make it clear, let's say you're playing poker, have a full house, and vermin shit swears its pair of X wins!
How do you argue with that sort of stupidity?
How do you argue with that sort of stupidity?
I'm not anymore. I glanced at his "why it's perfectly rational for primitivists to use quad-core laptops" piece and knew I was dealing with a lunatic, and a dishonest one at that.
Jeffersonian|2.17.12 @ 10:07PM|#
"How do you argue with that sort of stupidity?
--------------
I'm not anymore."
Wise decision, and for good reason. Plus, you're not feeding vermin any longer. Vermin, at least those with survival instinct, will not frequent places where they're not fed, reducing the vermin shit.
In this particular case, the idiocy is of such depth that Darwin would have a hard time imagining the continued survival.
Isn't it hypocritical of primitivists to use modern technology?
5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They're Wrong
by Jason Godesky | 26 October 2005
http://www.rewild.info/anthrop.....yre-wrong/
he just can't stand a dissenting opinion
BAAAAHHHHHHHH
...anything.
City slickers would know about that.
Everyone knows about white indian's daddy issues.
Just "white people". Huh.
Godesky = racist. The pieces come together.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had THE RIGHT TO TAKE over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
"5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They're WrongA"
Nothing in that steaming pile refutes that you're a hypocrite for using a computer.
Like Amish behind the wheel of a car...
Tedious Fucktard
Tedious Fucktard
Just carrying the news, here.
Alright, Godesky. Since you're no true Indian, I'll just steal your handle.
Who cares how 7 billion agricultural city-Statist aggressors dieoff?
[Mother Nature] must be UNLEASHED, and allowed to administer instant punishment... Again: UNLEASH [Mother Nature] to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?
~Murray Rothbard
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch5.html
"Ohhh it hurtz sooo goood!"
"MHMM yea dominate me like CITY-Statist"
thanks for being honest how you treat mother earth and her many children
uhh OOHHHH
Abuse.
thanks for being honest how you treat mother earth and her many children
thanks for being honest about how you like it
but your mom was tighter.
make you mother so proud of you
City slickers would know about that.
"Mother Earth"
What a load of shit. The planet is fucking rock, water, and dirt.
Now, Cousin Jupiter over there...
White Indian's screen name has been "marked as spam by a third-party filter." I salute the awesome powers of civilization for this welcome development. Eat buffalo shit, Godesky!
that's great news, nitwit
Is in the House.
Not sure I see reason to celebrate; if vermin shit changes a screen name, what good does that do?
because you steal it? LOL
Yeah, you steal it, and that's what other Libertards call it when somebody else uses another's name.
So I don't use it anymore, comrade. You have it.
City slickers would know about that.
Uh, oh.
The return of vermin shit.
Not good.
...announces himself. Not good.
Excess ain't rebellion.
Seems apropos.
Private property rights are positive rights.
Wow I just read the comments nevermind.
Oh, no!
Please tell us how "Private property rights are positive rights."
And I'm looking forward to your explanation of how "up" = "down".
Any white person = collective rights too.
"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
Any white person.
The right to take.
City slickers would know about that.
Converting us evermore with your primitivist sermons, WI. Are you chanting a liturgy of your own, there?
Good, Derider. Stay the fuck away, because you never posit anything worthwhile.
Positively.
Well, my name isn't spam yet.
Holy what happened here?
that's what happened
ugly shit
now you know it
don't talk to me, you have nothing to teach me.
Hey Man, Nice Shot
Vermin shit happened here. Vermin shit gets tossed off the board on a regular basis, but tends to show up on weekends in the hopes that someone isn't minding the store and it gets to troll for a while.
Its thesis has been laughed off of every forum where it's been offered (except its own) and none of the 'arguments' are worth an honest rebuttal.
But unlike most every other board, reason.com is tolerant of even this sort of bullshit, Until vermin shit pisses off even the r.com mods and gets tossed again.
I've heard that Trolls are unable to convert Vitamin D into sunlight.
Gots another conspiracy theory about enemies of the city-State!
Da, comrade.
City slickers would know about that.
He's insane, but not so insane that he'll actually live the way he champions.
Jeffersonian|2.17.12 @ 10:56PM|#
"He's insane, but not so insane that he'll actually live the way he champions."
Uh, doesn't that pretty much define "insane"? Or at least "terminally hypocritical".
It's a regulation vacation!
Oh wait, you actually live the way you champion.
REGULATION VACATION CELEBRATION!
451,655 views
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0
Lest we be accused of misrepresenting their views, actual Libertarians have been kicking around this take on Somalia with a straight face for some time now. No shit:
mises.org/story/2066
A more nuanced completely INSANE view is that Somalia has been awesome-ized by Anarchism, not Libertarianism.
http://reason.com/blog/2006/12.....e-in-somal
I can't see why anyone should even bother talking to someone who openly hopes for the death of 6 billion people. He's like Hitler * 1000. Well, if Hitler was some fucktard on the Internet instead of a world leader. But still.
Atlas these days reads almost like a Peak Oil survivalist fantasy. Rand apparently accepted a form of Malthusianism which held that we have too many philosophically undesirable people in the world. Just withdraw the energy supplies (Galt's motor, Ellis Wyatt's shale oil, Ken Dannager's coal) that sustain them, and the resulting die off will restore Earth to its Objectivist carrying capacity.
"To a gas chamber - go!"
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
http://aynrandcontrahumannatur.....go_10.html
Take it up with Ayn Rand when you get to hell.
I DISAVOW the following:
? marriage vows
? newsletters under my name
? Ayn Rand when she's inconvenient
"Things happen."
By the second amendment, my right to bear arms requires the government to provide me with free handguns. I can't wait for the Affordable Handgun Act to become law.
Me either, otherwise I can't buy a gun until I get into my new house.
It only requires "arms", and if you don't have two, the government will pay for a prosthesis.
I DISAVOW the following:
? marriage vows
? newsletters under my name
? Ayn Rand when she's inconvenient
"Things happen."
City slickers would know about that.
He knows his shit.
Trying to believe...
What's your definition of negative and positive rights? It's not explicit in the article.
I think negative rights are rights that are intrinsic to all humans and that are fully controlled by an individual.
I think positive rights are rights that a government enforces with the threat of violence.
Property rights are therefore positive rights.
WHITE INDIAN DON'T FUCK THIS UP YOU ARE RETARDED
"I think positive rights are rights that a government enforces with the threat of violence."
Like, for instance, my freedom to speak as I please without some thug threatening me? That sort of a 'positive right', enforced by a government?
As compared to the 'positive right' of coercing me to give up some of my time to provide an economic good to another?
Are you really so ignorant as to not see the difference? If so, why do you find WI obnoxious? You're allies!
I think freedom of speech is a negative right. You have full control over your thoughts and speech. Government attempts to restrict that right might be in defense of some positive right, but individual thought and expression is intrinsic to human existence.
Yet my right to speak, just like my purse, can be taken from me.
That something requires defending doesn't mean it's not foundational.
And I find WI obnoxious for the same reason that you find whoever wrote those racist articles RP published obnoxious. (He thinks the same way you do but for a stupid reason)
Go the fuck back away, Derider. Like I said earlier, you have nothing worthwhile to add here.
Bla bla bla
Die in a fire.
Well for fuck's sake.
I used to enjoy this site.
Don't let the weasels get you down,it is funny how the trolling statist fucktards are forced to come here to gambol.Huffpost should be the white indian state fellating fascist fatherland why would any of them want to come here I can only wonder?
Wow, huge disconnect in this article. Here's the deal, you totally and completely left out the fact that these hospitals, universities, and institutions receive tax payer dollars. When the church crawls into bed with the devil (government) they can't act all surprised when the Devil wants to consummate the marriage!
They asked for federal funds. They received them. They are obliged to follow the rules for taking them, and if they don't want that they should refuse the funds. If those rules offend their sensibilities they should DENY PUBLIC FUNDING! Then I would back their claim the government has no right to dictate their direction. Absolutely! But since they do take a LOT of tax dollars, f off. So simple it hurts the brain.
What would Ayn Rand say in this situation? I bet she would be asking, "WHY THE HELL ARE THE CHURCH HOSPITALS FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS TO BEGIN WITH?" I doubt she'd have much sympathy with a private, religious organization, taking tax dollars, paying employees with said tax dollars, and imposing their religious beliefs on the employees while paying them with TAX DOLLARS!
Sorry, but this is a legitimate health care issue. The GOP, the Libertarians, and anybody to the right of left, is being hypocritical about this issue! The church is taking a LOT of federal funds to run hospitals and universities and then acting surprised when the government asks for a certain base level of care for employees (and yes, birth control is BASE LEVEL care).
And then the GOP and even Reason, concludes that because birth control is offered for "free" in family planning clinics like Planned Parenthood, this is a non issue. MY GOD, the hypocrisy! Hello, when did the GOP and Libertarians support the Planned Parenthood agenda and publicly funded birth control? You have ONE ANSWER! "If you don't like it, pay for it out of pocket!" Sending folks to other sources of publicly funded birth control still forces Catholics to pay for it after all--I mean, if they pay taxes.
Libertarians, GOP and all else involved, get this straight! There is NO FREE BIRTH CONTROL! Birth control costs...and if it's offered at Planned Parenthood, schools, or public health care clinics it is FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS. Some Catholics who find birth control abhorrent pay those taxes already. This is a non issue, and libertarians are falling on the wrong side of it. They should only be yelling at the Catholic church: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TAKE PUBLIC FUNDS! Sorry.
...the devil (government)...
Da Debbil is Da Gummit!
Say amen put your hand on the radio! Cast out that demon! Exorcise da debbil! Pray for deliverance! Glory hallelujah!
Da Debbil's Biggest Party
Isaiah 14:9 ? "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."
l. INTRODUCTION -- WHAT AMERICA THINKS ABOUT GUMMIT
-Hell has fallen on hard times. A recent George Barna survey found that 67% of Americans do not believe in hell. That means that only 33% of Americans believe in a literal hell.
-Couple that idea with a rapidly declining biblical knowledge and in just a few short years there will be no hell. . . . At least in the minds of Americans.
-Hell is being "frozen out" by many preachers who downplay damnation in their sermons. According to a lengthy report June 19, 2002 in The Los Angeles Times, the mention of hell from pulpits is at "an all-time low" as a result of the influence of secularism on Christian theology.
-"There has been a shift in religion from focusing on what happens in the next life to asking, 'What is the quality of this life we're leading now?'" said Harvey Cox Jr., an author, religious historian and professor at the Harvard Divinity School. "You can go to a whole lot of churches week after week, and you'd be startled even to hear a mention of hell."
-I think that sometimes we are even startled to hear about hell here. In fact, it is now ___________ . The last sermon that I can recall being entirely related to the subject of Hell was in March, eight months ago, when we had our youth revival with ________________ .
-The Los Angeles Times said the tendency to forsake the fire and brimstone "has grown in recent years as nondenominational ministries, with their focus on everyday issues such as child-rearing and career success, have proliferated and loyalty to churches has deteriorated."
-"It's just too negative," said Bruce Shelley, a senior professor of church history at the Denver Theological Seminary. "Churches are under enormous pressure to be consumer-oriented. Churches today feel the need to be appealing rather than demanding."
-But despite what the popular preachers and theologians of our seminaries say about hell, they forget what the greatest preacher who ever lived had to say. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke about Hell twice as much as He did about Heaven. There was only one subject that He dealt with more and that was money.
-Suffice it to say, if the Lord thought it important enough to speak about then I too am bound by that same task. The doctrine of Hell was not a doctrine that was developed by Paul, or Peter, or even John. The certainty of Hell was clearly established by Jesus Christ.
-Billy Graham was quoted in the Los Angeles Times article as saying that he could not any longer, in good conscience preach about a literal, burning hell. He felt that hell was more a separation from God than a literal place. He said that the thirst which the rich man in Luke 16 experienced was an unquenchable thirst for God that could not be filled and that would remain with him for eternity.
-Billy Graham said that hellfire and brimstone preaching was good for the '40's and '50's but is no longer good for the new millenium. It is funny how we change because in the late '50's, Mr. Graham was quoted like this, "If there was more hell in the pulpit there would be less hell in the pew."
Preach it bruthuh!
Da Debbil is Da Agricultures!
Agriculture creates government.
~Richard Manning
Against the Grain, p.73
It's a legitimate health care issue? The right to get a $12 packet of pills for free every month, instead of ponying up the puny amount of cash out of pocket?
Even though that $12 packet of pills will probably cost $40 when the producer charges whatever he wants to the insurance company, knowing they can't negotiation because they are being forced to pay for it, and that it ends up being an addition $1 in everyone's insurance premiums.
Yeah, that's what counts as a "serious medical issue" these days.
Nice straw man argument. First of all, I had to take the pill for medical reasons, and there are lots of varieties...they can cost from $10-$50 a month (my brand was $38), but get this: I don't give a f^ck if it's $.02 for the pill. That wasn't my point.
My point is they take tax dollars, and since they do they handed over control to the government. That was THEIR fault. I am forced, against my will, to pay tax dollars to hospitals with archaic religious rules. Nope, don't want to. The minute they stop accepting public funds is the minute I will SCREAM that the government should stay out of their business. In my mind Libertarians aren't really seeing the huge opportunity we have to point out that this is EXACTLY why we've been screaming that health care and government don't mix. But instead I am hearing, "BIRTH CONTROL IS CHEAP, IT'S FREE". Blah blah. And a lot of bullshit about women wanting "free" health care (when did you miss that these are working women, and we aren't discussing "hand outs" but benefit packages that are part of their pay?) Should the government force PRIVATE organizations to provide birth control, or even insurance? Nope. But as soon as we let the government run, or partially fund, private organizations--we've effectively opened the cookie jar and invited them to stick their dirty hands in the jar.
And another thing, let's not forget that this religious belief is STUPID, ARCHAIC and not even followed or believed by a large majority of the Catholic Church! So we have hospitals run in part by tax dollars, and in part by charity dollars, and almost NOBODY donating or paying those dollars agree with this ignorant stance on birth control. Blah.
Good point. If Catholic hospitals, charities, and other organizations are willing to take Federal funds, they should play by whatever rules the Federal gov't mandates. You are absolutely right, the libertarian stance should be that Catholic hospitals and charities should stop accepting Federal money. Until they do, I have no sympathy for them in this matter. Wow, I actually was persuaded by a cogent argument on the internet.
"Good point."
No it isn't. This mandate applies to those who choose not to receive federal funds also, so your point is empty and meaningless.
The insurance mandates are not contingent on receiving federal funds. They apply to ALL insurance. Every insurance company in the US must provide free birth control pills to any woman who wants one. And the cost may not be passed along to them in the form of higher premiums, they are passed along to everyone through increases in ALL insurance premiums.
It's completely socialized provision of free birth control.
And it wasn't even passed by congress. It was created by a regulatory ruling approved by the President.
Hazel, Hazel, Hazel. ALL HOSPITALS RECEIVE PUBLIC FUNDING-in one form or other--it's come to that. Am I against that, and mandates in general? Yep. But I am much more against Catholics getting special treatment because of their religion, and for NO GOOD REASON.
Catholic hospitals receive more tax dollars, on average, than their secular counterparts. Oh, and they actually write these regulations into leases when they merge with secular hospitals, forcing their religious views on employees who didn't get hired at a Catholic hospital, but suddenly found themselves employed by one, and tethered to their archaic belief. From an article I read that perfectly highlights what I think the real issue is:
"There is a point at which a policy meant to protect the free exercise of religion can become an impermissible accommodation that favors or 'establishes' religion over secular concerns. The First Amendment, while protecting the free exercise of religion, also has a clause prohibiting government establishment of religion."
"ALL HOSPITALS RECEIVE PUBLIC FUNDING"
Citation or admit you're lying.
OK... All Hospitals except the ones only for super rich people who never admit a single Medicare patient because poor people are icky and are located in the Camans receive public funding.
"I am much more against Catholics getting special treatment because of their religion, and for NO GOOD REASON."
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
So, are you illiterate or just dishonest?
She's right.
"There is NO FREE BIRTH CONTROL!"
I know, right? Women just get pregnant unless they take the pill, there's nothing else they can do to prevent it.
Another DUMB argument. My point with that statement is that telling women there is free birth control PILLS (god, the ridiculous semantics games trolls play--I am talking about BIRTH CONTROL PILLS and you well know it) is a specious argument. It implies that nobody pays for that birth control--but free birth control is offered in large part because of tax dollars, and therefore isn't free, but paid for with public dollars--just like the insurance policies being offered in Catholic hospitals--and any Catholic who pays taxes will still be paying for the pills, even if they send women to Planned Parenthood. Follow along, and stop with the straw man issues.
By the way, nice innuendo that if women weren't such wanton whores they wouldn't need birth control. Some men just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. Libertarians are missing the broader issue. It's a knee-jerk reaction to Obama, and not an issue that should truly inspire or motivate libertarians--except for the ONE real issue here: When you mix government with health care and tax dollars--you get a huge, conflicted MESS. If this is a conviction the church holds so dearly, they should hold it dearly enough to deny public funding and be on their merry way.
"Another DUMB argument."
Thanks for warning us about your post in advance, I wish everyone did that.
"By the way, nice innuendo that if women weren't such wanton whores they wouldn't need birth control."
Looks like that hurt you a little more than it should have.
I have zero problem with recreational sex for either gender. Nor do I believe protection is solely the woman's responsibility in a healthy relationship. That said, who are you to mandate that someone else underwrite your protection? The fact that many contraceptives are prescription drugs does not change the fact that they are primarily elective items that support a recreational activity.
To head off that asinine objection, no, I don't think ED treatments should be required to be covered either.
"Wow, huge disconnect in this article. Here's the deal, you totally and completely left out the fact that these hospitals, universities, and institutions receive tax payer dollars. "
This mandate applies to those who choose not to receive federal funds also, so your point is empty and meaningless.
Really? What percentage of non-profit organizations like this aren't taking public funds? No, I don't agree with mandates, but the mandates are there for everybody else too. It's not singling out Catholics, they aren't forced to hand out free birth control, or take it against their will, and most DO accept public funding, and quite a bit of it. And here's the deal, I would support an amendment that says that any hospital can bow out of the mandate if they accept no public funding. But I will not support religious exemptions from these laws, unless of course Christian Scientist hospitals would be allowed to offer no prescription drug coverage, or private citizens against preventive/expansive warfare for moral reasons can "opt out" of paying for wars, or blah blah blah. The list goes on. This is a Pandora's box, with a WHOLE lot of implications in other areas of medicine, health insurance, government and religious boundaries in the public sector, etc...
People seem to think there are no broader implications, nothing further going on here. We have massive amounts of medicine, miraculous medicine, that is coming down the pike, that could feasibly be the victim of these same exemptions. Not to mention this same logic could also be used to exclude certain immunizations from insurance plans, medicines based on genetic experiments, etc... No other religious group would get such a ridiculous exemption.
The Catholic church is being coddled in this instance. Their parishioners don't even care about this issue and disagree with the church leaders. Almost nobody thinks their actual stance has merit. Here's another rub: Catholic hospitals comprise 20-30% of our health care network. Catholic hospitals do NOT just hire Catholics, they hire non-Catholics. They want the right to force their religious opinion on their employees, all in the name of "religious freedom". But where is the freedom of the employees to have their own opinion about birth control. Oh, that's right--go work at another hospital you agree with. OR the Catholic church could, say, leave the morality of birth control where it belongs--between a woman, her family and her doctor. I see this as the government offering special treatment to Catholics and nothing more.
1) tl;dr
2) because IT DOESN'T MATTER " What percentage of non-profit organizations like this aren't taking public funds?" as long as there are some.
To try and derail the discussion into red herrings.
http://womenintheology.org/201.....hs-ruling/
This article sums up my feelings very well (except birth control being intrinsically evil). It's by a Catholic who GETS it, and sums up very well exactly WHY this is a Pandora's box, and a very real danger to religious freedom, but not religious freedom of the Catholic Church.
THIS sums up my feelings on the subject, by some guys who ACTUALLY GOT IT.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibi.....ution.html
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
The law expressly violates that.
You're wrong Karma.
Also, Catholic churches actually take more public funding than public hospitals. You can't make this shit up. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=public funding of religiously-sponsored hospitals in the united states&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http://www.mergerwatch.org/storage/pdf-files/bp_no_strings.pdf&ei=pf8_T8y9I-Tm0QHIorneBw&usg=AFQjCNHFJFoS3oXh3ogTrO4n1ZJUsUWX2A&cad=rja
And I am not WRONG until you prove that this law is somehow violating their religious rights. It isn't IMO. If the government were forcing them to take contraceptives, or forcing them to desist in preaching against it, that would be one thing. This isn't a law prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Catholics aren't being forced to believe birth control is moral, take it themselves, or forced to not preach against it. If they have a problem with employees taking birth control, then I guess they should hold some good old mandatory abstinence/rhythm method classes during the lunch break and warm their employees of the moral perils of birth control. But be VERY clear, the government is not making a law singling out Catholics or trying to restrict freedom of religion for them. The Catholics are asking for special exemption from these laws, laws that despite what you all claim aren't really violating their freedoms in any way. But they sure as shit want to impose their religious dogma on everybody, including their non catholic employees and even their congregation who mostly find it absurd.
Whatever...just wait, more requests for exemptions based on religious beliefs will come pouring in, and they will get more and more absurd.
""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
The law expressly violates that.
You're wrong Karma.
The First Amendment, while protecting the free exercise of religion, also has a clause prohibiting government establishment of religion. Special exemptions for the Catholic Church, exemptions that allow them to force their religious views on their non Catholic employees are wrong.
You want to argue against mandates in general, and Obamacare specifically, we can do that. I would agree with you, so it would be short. But this isn't that issue, and the GOP and libertarians are flat out trying to distract and deter. For instance, I've heard: "It also effects institutions that are completely privately funded." And when it comes to hospitals and universities? What exactly is that percentage? Look it up! There is no private health care anymore folks, hate to break it to you. And incidentally, Catholic dollars are actually almost non existent in the running of Catholic hospitals. It is public dollars and private donations from the public, many of whom aren't catholic at all. The people FUNDING these hospitals should have a say in how they are run, not some old bishops who disagree on this issue not only with the majority of the country, but the majority of their CHURCH.
Which has nothing to do with this because the government isn't establishing anything.
The employees are free to find work elsewhere if they don;t like that they work for a church.
How fucking stupid are you?
What does this have to do with this case, where the church is DEFINITELY NOT forcing its view on anyone, but instead, refusing to allow someone to force their views on THE CHURCH?
You're a stupid lying bitch.
It's not a special exemption for the Catholic Church, it's an exemption for all churches that are opposed to contraception. Maybe the Catholics are the only ones, but it's the same idea whether all faiths proscribe it or if none do.
"Also, Catholic churches actually take more public funding"
irrelevant.
I've personally had enough of your bloviating statism, rampant dishonesty, and idiotic wall of text posting style.
Fuck off and die now, Karma Wilson.
Very grown up of you. Nicely done. So you can get it in the search string I suppose. What a horrible, horrible thing to do to somebody. You sir, are a dreadful person. If you disagree with somebody you slander them, insult them and wish death upon them. Why don't you fuck off and LIVE--actually live like a REAL man who doesn't have to result to lies and ad hominen attacks to make his points, which aren't many. Take a cue from your own name.
Oh, and I seriously doubt anybody will dig through the 1,140,000 results from a "karma wilson" search, but even if they do, the other stuff they find will only serve to make you look like the mean spirited person you are.
"What a horrible, horrible thing to do to somebody"
You mean like forcing them to pay for someone else's birth control when it is expressly against their religion?
Fuck you, I'm glad they did it.
I am completely AGAINST obamacare and the government forcing any private employer to pay for insurance. THAT is a separate issue, and really to me the main issue this whole side moan fest about religious freedom is highlighting. In fact, I'm here arguing that the real issue is that private businesses are getting so much public funding at all!
But in this case they do get public funding, lots of it, and there is, at this time, no way out of that because the system is flawed. So we are working within that flawed context, and in that context I don't find the Catholic church really has a bitch. Sorry my opinion makes some of you so mad you can do nothing more productive than write demeaning names and accuse me of child rape. Kind of ironic considering the Catholic history on THAT issue.
And sorry, it IS tax dollars and mostly non Catholic donation dollars running those hospitals. So if they don't want to be part of the mandate, they won't receive public funding. I also read about fines being imposed, and I disagree with those--the government takes enough. But I am fine if the government wants to withhold medicare and Medicaid to hospitals hell bent on following these archaic traditions that the majority of their church doesn't even follow. What would happen? The hospitals would fold, because we are that reliant on public funding. Non religious organizations would snatch them up and, probably not even switch out the staff, and change the name from St. Luke Hospital to County General. And then they would not have to worry about keeping their employees from making personal, moral decisions that go against the sensibilities of the Vatican. HURRAY! And that again highlights why government health care will only lead down this road.
Church leaders simply want to force their religious beliefs on employees, and use public funding to do it. Oh, and whine and bitch and moan about the "WAR ON RELIGION" ignoring their own war on the individual religious choices of others. I can't stop my tax dollars from funding hospitals who refuse to follow laws that apply to everyone else. I don't believe in these religious exemptions for the most part (some I can see, like not forcing doctors to perform abortions). There is actually a lot of precedent on state levels (where such mandates and exemptions are common) that exemptions can quickly get out of control, and do infringe upon the religious rights of the employees, again, in my opinion. Let the name calling, lies, and general hysteria begin.
"who doesn't have to result to lies and ad hominen attacks to make his points"
Says the queen of straw men and red herrings.
Fuck you you pedophile cunt.
Admitted liar and (now) hypocrite, heal thyself
"Take a cue from your own name."
You want me to be a pedophile?
"Karma Wilson is a pedophile?" you want me to take a cue from that?
AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAA
I take it you were publicly educated? How is "your" name "karma wilson"? Oh, I see, you changed it just for me! How clever? If I recall right, your name used to be SHUT THE FUCK UP. And that's the name you should take a cue from.
"How is "your" name "karma wilson""
It isn't whorebag, it's KARMA WILSON IS A PEDOPHILE?
Can't you fucking read?
No you mendacious twat, they're just being forced to pay for it's availability, which is clearly against their religion, but apparently doesn't violate the "prohibiting free exercise thereof".
How fucking stupid are you?
Anybody being forced to pay for insurance is wrong. Saying that Catholics are against this is really saying, "The pope and a few bishops are against it" since the majority of the Catholic church doesn't support the church's stance on birth control. Oh, and using big words doesn't make you mature, you puerile prick.
"Anybody being forced to pay for insurance is wrong."
Catholics are being forced to pay for insurance, in this case insurance that violates their beliefs.
You admit you're wrong.
My god, your inability to follow an argument through is amazing and disturbing.
Let's see if I can make this any simpler. Perhaps if I typed more slowly? 😉 Yes, all forced insurance is wrong in my opinion, but two wrongs don't make a right. SO: Forcing all other hospitals to pay for this insurance, but not forcing Catholic affiliated hospitals to do so, infringes more on the rights of the non catholic hospitals than the catholic hospitals by offering special exemption for religious reasons--specious religious reasons at that. Not requiring Catholics to follow this rule is basically just giving special right to Churches--most of whom are Catholic in name only. And I've already explained why any claim that this is a deeply held catholic belief just makes the Catholic church look pretty unsympathetic to the true beliefs of their parishioners. You know...the ones who donate all the money for those big, fancy gilded buildings everywhere, and the popemobile? Yea, they don't agree with the church on this.
So here's how you fix it. Completely restructure health care so the government is in NONE of it, and let hospitals be run as the owners see fit. I'm FINE with that. I am NOT fine with Catholics being forced to pay less than other hospitals because they don't feel "good" about providing birth control.
"Anybody being forced to pay for insurance is wrong."
Catholics are being forced to pay for insurance, in this case insurance that violates their beliefs.
You admit you're wrong.
"Saying that Catholics are against this is really saying, "The pope and a few bishops are against it Catholic Doctrine is against it"
Corrected your lie.
Okay, I can see this is place where every word WILL be taken literally. So to repeat, numerous studies show that Catholics who attend the church disagree with the doctrine and would like it changed. The issue of birth control was visited by the church back in the 1970s. 80% of Catholics felt that birth control shouldn't be considered immoral. The Pope decided it was, and that was the end of that. So yep, it's still official church doctrine, but not followed or supported by the majority of the people saying the prayers and plopping coins in the plate.
As a Lutheran I just have to say... if you don't like Catholic Doctrine, don't be Catholic.
This is NOT rocket science.
"Saying that Catholics are against this is really saying, "The pope and a few bishops are against it Catholic Doctrine is against it"
Corrected your lie.
"you puerile prick."
"have to result to lies and ad hominen attacks"
Karma Wilson is definitely a hypocrite.
That the Church leadership desires to adhere to teaching and encouraging a standard of behavior and doctrinal tenets without tossing out each and every person who doesn't follow it, doesn't make it not a legitimate religious conviction.
Doctrine isn't subject to majority vote. If you don't like the official Catholic rules, don't go to that church. If you want to work for them, pay for your own pills. It will be less than you spent at Starbucks each month anyway.
I don't go to church, but I am often forced to go to hospitals with Catholic affiliation, which happens most in small, rural communities like the ones I have lived in. I've lived in three towns with one hospital, and in two of those towns the hospital was Catholic. So, if I wanted to go to another hospital I would have to drive 70 miles to the next town. My tax dollars are used to fund those hospitals. I have no choice in that. The hospital down the road without the Catholic symbol and name still has to pay those costs--which like it or not equates to unequal treatment for CATHOLICS under the law.
You want to rip public funding out of ALL private businesses, I'll join in. You want special treatment for Catholics over a NON issue. I'm out.
I get it.
Icky Catholics maintain hospitals in small towns, and instead of thanking them for this, you hate them.
If they pack up and leave you'll be taking that 70 mile drive if you like it or not.
Seriously. How is it that you figure that you're doing THEM a favor by allowing them to treat you?
"Saying that Catholics are against this is really saying, "The pope and a few bishops are against it Catholic Doctrine is against it"
Corrected your lie.
"No other religious group would get such a ridiculous exemption."
Citation or admit you're a liar.
Sorry. Forgot the semantic trolls. You're right, I'm a liar. Some other religious groups might (read those with powerful lobbyists working on their behalf, and consistent with the western christian tradition). But IN MY OPINION the backing of the powerful Catholic church is making this more of an issue than it needs to be.
"Forgot the semantic trolls."
I'm a troll because YOU made an assertion you can't support.
" You're right, I'm a liar. "
Then we're done, fuck off now.
I've personally had enough of your bloviating statism, rampant dishonesty, and idiotic wall of text posting style.
Fuck off and die now, Karma Wilson.
So what? Birth control shouldn't even be an insurable expense, since it is an act of choice to use it. Nobody should have to pay for someone else's birth control. All this does is force the rest of society to pick up the cost of paying for it through their mandatory insurance premiums.
Insurance should be based on individual risk, and if it were it wouldn't even make financial sense to use insurance to pay for birth control, since it would be cheaper to pay out of pocket.
Making insurance cover routine expenses like birth control contributes to the cost inflation problem in the health care market. You stop consumers from caring ablout the price, and take the negotiating power away from the insurance companies and then the drug companies will charge whatever they want.
I have used birth control two times in my life, both for medical purposes. Without it I would have missed school, work, and been on iron supplements permanently. I didn't have much "choice". Sorry to disappoint. Oh, and my prescription cost $38 a month, not ten.
Once again, I am not for forcing ANY insurance companies to fund ANYTHING, but if the government IS going to do that, they batter damned well do it equally to everybody, and not give special privilege to a certain religion.
All Catholic insurance policies allow the pill for medical purposes.
Your point is invalid.
"Things happen."
*YAWN*
99% Broccoli/1% Newt Paul
99% Water/1% Kool-Aid
? Universal Koch Oil pollution is good.
? Universal asthma opportunities are good.
? Universal birth defect opportunities are good.
? Universal health care for the victims is bad.
Please make a note of it and contribute to Reason today to defend any white person's right to take. Because nobody deserves clean air or water unless they pay.
I fuck little boys?
Unless it's protecting our right to occupy land and enforce artificial borders that restrict the free movement of people to hunt and gather free food.
Capitalism just can't tolerate free food.
AAARRRGGGHHH!!! THE FIRE!!! IT BURNS!!!
Where did he go?
Reason: Best articles, worst comment trolls.
But how many people would come to the site and read the articles if they could not "contribute" their own competing crackpot notions? This isn't a philosophical site. It's a meeting place where anonymous, socially incompetent people gather to engage in language and behavior that they'd never dare to do in real life.
"All that is required for the exercise of a negative right (to self-ownership and, redundantly, liberty and one's legitimately acquired belongings) is other people's noninterference. But the fulfillment of positive rights requires that other people act affirmatively even if they don't want to, writes Sheldon Richman. Say, by providing products or paying the bills."
Is this true though? Private property in the United States is a system requiring much, much more than simply "noninterference" by individuals. The government has tons of rules and duties in this system. Pick up any casebook on property law and you'll find it doesn't just have one page in it stating the dictum from above...
Likewise your bodily liberties and rights. Sure "all that's required" in theory is non-interference, but in practice states create rather large legal and bureaucratic apparatuses for the protection of it, from tort law and the courts that enforce it to police forces and a vast body of criminal law. That stuff ain't paid for by voluntary bake sales, it "requires that other people act affirmatively even if they don't want to...Say, by providing products or paying the bills."
Positive enforcements of negative rights are not equivalent to positive rights.
Every rule-based system requires rule-enforcement. Of course we could try a pure anarchy as well, but it's silly to say "Hey you have rights, and they're being enforced, so therefore EVERY POSSIBLE RIGHT must be considered equally just and valid. "
If both end up requiring the same positive interference then I'm not sure how fundamental that supposed difference is.
If we pay police to "guard" people's "negative rights" and pay health professionals an equivalent amount to "provide" people's "positive rights" then all you're really left with is are labels.
If we pay police to "guard" people's "negative rights" and pay health professionals an equivalent amount to "provide" people's "positive rights" then all you're really left with is are labels.
You went all collectivist with the second word -- "we".
If you want to guard your stuff, do it yourself or hire some person or organization to do it for you. If you want to stay healthy, take care of your own body or hire a person or organization to take care of you when it quits working.
There's no need to coerce others into paying for providing you with these services.
Nonsense. There is more than a semantic difference between "enforcement of rules" and "provision of goods and services".
Rule enforcement is, at least under the concept of the rule of law, a neutral process. It's object is only to enforce existing rights, not to (by itself) alter the distribution of property or wealth. Some other entity must create the property, wealth, rights and conditions, which the rules govern. The law merely administers, it does not create. The costs involved are solely administrative.
Provision of goods and services by comparison is not a neutral process - monies must be taken from from some and the goods and services provided must be created or purchased. This is *in addition* to the administrative costs of any program.
basically there are nominal costs for all government activity. But rule enforcement really is just purely the administrative costs of enforcing the right, while positive rights require both administrative costs PLUS the cost of the goods and services involve. Plus the distribution of the value is not neural with respect to individual citizens, they're designed to favor various groups based on economic status.
He really is arguing that the "right" to have your rights enforced and the "right" to health care are the same thing.
I wouldn't feed it anymore if I were you. there is no meaningful discussion to be had here.
Wow, you really can't help but "troll" around behind me. You've got more butthurt than a gay porn convention's morning after...
Hazel, what you've written here is a bit nutty.
In BOTH the "enforcement of a negative right" and the "provision of a positive right" there is more than mere "administrative costs." To "enforce" your "negative right" we create a massive set of police, judicial and correctional institutions funded with monies taken by coercion; wealth definitely shifts (in the very least from those who don't need such protection, but must pay for it for others, to those who need it, and to all those cops, lawyers and guards).
Likewise to provide health care we would tax those who don't need it to provide it for those who do.
In BOTH cases you have administrative costs AND the costs of providing for the right for others. It's just in the "negative rights" case you call "providing" "enforcing" and feel smug and superior about it...
MNG, the enforcement of ALL laws, including ALL rights, involves police courts and judiciary. Those are the administrative costs I speak of. Any society based on the rule of law is going to need law enforcement mechanisms, irregarless of whether there are positive or negative rights.
What I am pointing out is that beyond this point, negative rights are cost-free, while positive rights require positive creation or forcible extraction of the goods or services in question.
Ypou simply can't point out the fact that laws cost money in enforcement and use that to say there's no difference between a law against murder and a law that requires people to pay for other people's birth control pills. Yes, the law against murder requires enforcement costs. But SO does the law requiring people to pay for birth control pills. The point is that it ALSO requires, you know, the payment for the birth control pills too.
Law enforcement simply can't be conflated with the payment of an entitlement.
Lets not even mention the fact that the beneficiary of the birth control pills gets an actual tangible economic benefit, whereas a person protected from murder has no tangible positive economic benefit. He's simple not murdered.
Hazel, you would be very foolish indeed to give Mr. Equivocating here any attention.
It's kind of funny that the guy who calls me an attention whore follows me around from post to post...posting.
We get it Rev, you got all butthurt the other day. Here's what you said about it yesterday:
"Yesterday he decided to yet-again call me a racist and I decided he doesn't deserve anything but mockery."
I called you a racist and your feelings got upset, so you've decided to follow me around begging for attention. Nice.
Reminds me of that line from TommyBoy:
"Hims little feelings is hurt!"
And you responded to him.
Which makes you worse.
And you responded to the responder, which is worse x 2.
no retard, i never bitched about people following me.
you lose.
If it makes you feel better.
Say...why don't you shut the fuck up?
[snicker]
"If it makes you feel better."
yes being right always makes me feel better.
cry more now.
But did you call him a racist based on irrefutable evidence?
"Likewise your bodily liberties and rights. Sure "all that's required" in theory is non-interference, but in practice states create rather large legal and bureaucratic apparatuses for the protection of it, from tort law and the courts that enforce it to police forces and a vast body of criminal law. That stuff ain't paid for by voluntary bake sales, it "requires that other people act affirmatively even if they don't want to...Say, by providing products or paying the bills."
I love the 'well, we already screwed things up, so there's no reason to stop now!' argument.
MNG, if we accept that argument, there's not one thing that can't be 'required' by the state.
And Hazel, what would you call the large, massive government appartus devoted to enforcing contracts between parties? Is it a "negative right" to have a third party enforce promises made to you by a second party? Seems like a positive right to me...
I'd say courts, etc. are not a natural right. They are a practical measure to help keep people from settling their disputes in the streets with violence.
"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules.
This is the task of a government?of a proper government?its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government.
A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control?i.e., under objectively defined laws."
Ayn Rand, "The Nature of Government"
The Virtue of Selfishness, 109
Nah. David Friedman (Milton's son) addresses private arbitration as a means of protecting "rights".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....XDrm5Q-eQ#!
Private arbitration is fine (in the non-criminal sphere) when both parties agree to binding (objectively defined) rules. Doesn't work in criminal law, where criminals cannot "privately" negotiate the definition of "crime" with their victims. This is where the anarchist's notion of law falls apart. Men's rights cannot be defined arbitrarily. Objective law is their best protector, and it must be enforced impartially.
"Private arbitration is fine (in the non-criminal sphere) when both parties agree to binding (objectively defined) rules."
Which is what contract law is, which is what we're discussing, so shut the fuck up and die now.
Doesn't work in criminal law, where criminals cannot "privately" negotiate the definition of "crime" with their victims.
Really? Why not? Admittedly, it wouldn't be easy, but it is doable. The argument that any service the governemnt provides can be provided by the free market more effectively and efficiently holds in the case of criminal law, if you are willing to work out the details.
any service the governemnt provides can be provided by the free market more effectively and efficiently
Like the military, for instance?
I'd love to hear your argument for private armies.
We already have an all volunteer military, don't we?
We already have an all volunteer military, don't we?
Come on. "All-volunteer" is not "private," and it certainly is not a "market." I thought you were better than that.
OK, OK, you did say "criminal law," (which--possibly-- separates you from the anarchists), but if "private" parties in one "area" of your neighborhood get together and decide among themselves that, say, carjacking is no longer a criminal activity, you'd be OK with that? As long as some "private" parties agreed upon it? What happens when the citizens of another neighborhood disagree? And when they decide to create a private police force to thwart (with the use of force) those activities that your neighborhood said was A-OK, is that acceptable in your "free-market" world?
The error in your premise is your definition of "markets." Crime is not "markets." Crime relies upon the use of force. Capitalism does not.
Hazel:
MNG:
Reading is FUN-DA-MENTAL!
Seems to me that contract enforcement could be a fee-for-service kind of thing. You want to take someone to court, you pay a nominal fee for the salary of the judge, clerks, etc.
Bruce L. Benson has written numerous books about this. His latest is The Enterprise of Law: Justice without the State. Fascinating.
And Tom Bell. And I'll post David Friedman video again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....XDrm5Q-eQ#!
"And Hazel, what would you call the large, massive government appartus devoted to enforcing contracts between parties? "
I'd call it a pathetic attempt to derive equivalence where there is none, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If YOU are personally incapable of discerning the very clear difference between positive and negative rights, and instead choose to focus on bureaucratic mechanisms, then that is your problem not ours.
Sez the troll with the "Shut the fuck up" handle. Comical and sad.
"Sez the troll with the "Shut the fuck up" handle. Comical and sad."
At least you sign your post, that's nice of you.
OK wow that like totally cracks me up man, I mean like wow.
http://www.totally-anon.tk
High in the Libertarian Mountains,far from the fetid festering Statist Swamps where most of us live there is a special place,Reason Springs where like minded pilgrims and adventurers are known to gather,enjoy the fresh air and drink deeply from the clean pure water water which is said to be some of the purest in the world.There are no roads to these springs,in fact it takes a long difficult philosophical journey to reach them which very few people are willing to undertake.As you might imagine the International Brotherhood of State Fellating Trolls finds this a very offensive and unfair arrangement which is why we will continue to send a representative at great expense by helicopter to these springs,not to drink from them of course or even to bottle any for our poor misfortunate brethren to enjoy,but to shit in them and leave.After all its only fair,if we can't enjoy pure water that's not polluted with our own feces,why should anyone else be entitled to that privilege?
D-
Looozer!...Teacher gave us all an A
A = A-hole.
Haggling about contraception here is like talking about the bumper sticker on the car that ran you over.
Haggling about any government budget line item is like that.
C-
http://www.prohibitionparty.org/index.html
The Reason comment section - still a festering cesspool of non sequiturs, childish nonsense, and sheer raving lunacy.
Boy, is our face red!
and our bellies fat!
Say what you will, but do you have a deep-pocket sugar daddy who lets you do as you please, money no object?
Didn't think so.
At least Reason doesn't live off taxpayer funds.
And that makes us righteous. Because free minds = infallibility.
AGRICULTURES CAUSE ALL BADNESS!!!
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Re: MNG,
It still requires non intervention from individuals. What you're alluding to is dispute resolution, but you certainly do not have the case of a small army looking over each item of property of each person - there wouldn't be any production in such a case, MNG.
Irrelevant. It's like pointing out to the fact there are thousands of rules that pertain to airplanes - yet that doesn't affect the laws of fluid motion and aerodynamics one bit.
Wouldn't it be in your case at least, MNG? Or do you require all these laws and rules to do the right thing? Is doing the right thing so alien to you, so away from your normal thought patterns, that you need someone else to tell YOU what YOU should do?
I wouldn't care to live next to you if that were the case, MNG...
483 comments? Only 483 FUCKING COMMENTS?!?!
C'mon you pussies I told Tulpa we would have 2000 by Monday! White Idiot....more stupid Pleeez! That always drives the numbers! Rectal??? Where are you and all 30 of your split personalties?? Why aren't you working harder?!?!?
Present
This should stir things up:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....ostpopular
I feel left out!
Needs more Christ-fag.
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I think posting
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Is kind of a cheat. But if if gets us to 2000 then damn the torpedos!
Link away Rectal Indian!
I'll do my part.
Obama chose Sibelius precisely so that they could ram publically funded abortion-on-demand and free birth control down everyone's throats. They merely had to pick the right moment to take each step. They picked this moment to pick a fight with the Catholic church in order to get team blue energized for the campaign. Some claim that they miscalculated, but they'll eventually get what they want regardless of whatever happens. It's just like the rest of the Obamacare agenda. The supreme court is unlikely to butt heads with the executive branch, especially on an election year. If any rulings they make don't accommodate the Obama administration's strategy, he's going to attack them and most of the press is going to join in right on cue. The press position is that the constitution says whatever the most left-leaning justice wants it to say. And a GOP-led house that is scared of a 1-week government shutdown is going to only give token opposition to the left's incremental socialist/social-engineering agenda.
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Obama's election modus operendi is to buy votes faster than anyone in the opposition can. He is quite capable of shooting himself in the foot with independent voters while the economy is still shitty, but he's got nothing to lose by buying votes and buying campaign contributions, especially if the middle class continues to shrink. It's easy to scapegoat big industries while you're hitting them up for money and selling favors to them. He'll get little dissent from the "professional left" that got him where he is because their goals are ultimately one and the same.
But getting back to the election, Obama can eke out a win. Once that happens, he can't recharge his real agenda, but everyone knows that he has four more years to manipulate the courts and the imperial bureaucracy while he blocks any fiscal reforms by the GOP. If he's lucky, the GOP will move leftwards and try to help him pass a big initiative: Debt or entitlement "reform" in the form of a national sales tax.
GODDAMMIT I SAID MORE FUCKING COMMENTS!
Hey Fat Indian....chew on this (after you finish the Hostess Donuts)......and comment, comment, comment!!!
Keeley conducts an investigation of the archaeological evidence for prehistoric violence, including murder and massacre as well as war. He also looks at nonstate societies of more recent times ? where we can name the tribes and peoples ? and their propensity for warfare. It has long been known, for example, that many tribes of South America's tropical forest engaged in frequent and horrific warfare, but some scholars have attributed their addiction to violence to baneful Western influences.
[citation needed] Maybe noted [GAMBOLER] Jason Godesky can provide one......
Keeley says peaceful societies are an exception. About 90-95% of known societies engage in war. Those that did not are almost universally either isolated nomadic groups (for whom flight is an option), groups of defeated refugees, or small enclaves under the protection of a larger modern state. The attrition rate of numerous close-quarter clashes, which characterize warfare in tribal warrior society, produces casualty rates of up to 60%, compared to 1% of the combatants as is typical in modern warfare. Despite the undeniable carnage and effectiveness of modern warfare, the evidence shows that tribal warfare is on average 20 times more deadly than 20th century warfare, whether calculated as a percentage of total deaths due to war or as average deaths per year from war as a percentage of the total population.[citation needed] "Had the same casualty rate been suffered by the population of the twentieth century," writes Nicholas Wade, "its war deaths would have totaled two billion people.
"[1] In modern tribal societies, death rates from war are four to six times the highest death rates in 20th century Germany or Russia.[2]
One half of the people found in a Nubian cemetery dating to as early as 12,000 years ago had died of violence. The Yellowknives tribe in Canada was effectively obliterated by massacres committed by Dogrib Indians, and disappeared from history shortly thereafter.[citation needed] Similar massacres occurred among the Eskimos, the Crow Indians, and countless others. These mass killings occurred well before any contact with the West. In Arnhem Land in northern Australia, a study of warfare among the Indigenous Australian Murngin people in the late-19th century found that over a 20-year period no less than 200 out of 800 men, or 25% of all adult males, had been killed in intertribal warfare.[citation needed] The accounts of missionaries to the area in the borderlands between Brazil and Venezuela have recounted constant infighting in the Yanomami tribes for women or prestige, and evidence of continuous warfare for the enslavement of neighboring tribes such as the Macu before the arrival of European settlers and government. More than a third of the Yanomamo males, on average, died from warfare.
According to Keeley, among the indigenous peoples of the Americas, only 13% did not engage in wars with their neighbors at least once per year. The natives' pre-Columbian ancient practice of using human scalps as trophies is well documented. Iroquois routinely slowly tortured to death and cannibalized captured enemy warriors. See Captives in American Indian Wars. In some regions of the American Southwest, the violent destruction of prehistoric settlements is well documented and during some periods was even common. For example, the large pueblo at Sand Canyon in Colorado, although protected by a defensive wall, was almost entirely burned; artifacts in the rooms had been deliberately smashed; and bodies of some victims were left lying on the floors. After this catastrophe in the late thirteenth century, the pueblo was never reoccupied.
For example, at Crow Creek in South Dakota, archaeologists found a mass grave containing the remains of more than 500 men, women, and children who had been slaughtered, scalped, and mutilated during an attack on their village a century and a half before Columbus's arrival (ca. A.D. 1325). The Crow Creek massacre seems to have occurred just when the village's fortifications were being rebuilt. All the houses were burned, and most of the inhabitants were murdered. This death toll represented more than 60% of the village's population, estimated from the number of houses to have been about 800. The survivors appear to have been primarily young women, as their skeletons are underrepresented among the bones; if so, they were probably taken away as captives. Certainly, the site was deserted for some time after the attack because the bodies evidently remained exposed to scavenging animals for a few weeks before burial. In other words, this whole village was annihilated in a single attack and never reoccupied.[3]
He makes three conclusions which the New York Times considers unexpected: that the most important part of any society, even the most war-like ones, are the peaceful aspects such as art that neither frequency nor intensity of war is correlated with population density that societies frequently trading with one another fight more wars with one another
[edit]Reception
The New York Times said that "the book's most dramatic payoff is its concluding explanation for the recent "pacification of the past" by scholars"[4] and that "...revulsion with the excesses of World War II has led to a loss of faith in progress and Western civilization....".
The book was a finalist for the 1996 Los Angeles Times Book Prize for History.[5]
fish, nice job, but vermin shit is *not* interested in facts or logic.
As good as your effort is, vermin shit has had his hat handed to him many times, and it has no effect at all.
Consider this: Let's say you're playing chess with vermin shit. You check-mate his king. Vermin shit then moves a pawn and claims to win!
Rules of logic, facts, observation are irrelevant to vermin shit; vermin shit says "I'M RIGHT!" regardless.
Vermin shit is vermin shit; it deserves to be scraped off your shoe. Nothing more.
Keeley writes for the Economist; what do you expect? Plus it's ironic when Libertards go all Statists themselves. Funny. Every. Day.
Godensky excoriates Keeley in the following essays:
Noble or Savage? Both. (Part 1)
by Jason Godesky | 11 January 2008
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....th-part-1/
"The Savages are Truly Noble"
by Jason Godesky | 10 May 2007
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....uly-noble/
How's living in moms well appointed basement? Comfortable? Enough room to GAMBOL? Ooops....careful....that washing machine is on spin cycle.
Thanks for the links....linking to yourself always reassures one that the argument is sound.
A gospel funeral for Whitney Houston
http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....7220.story
Well that's her prerogative.
Obama Urges Citizens To Hide Evidence Of Our Formerly Prosperous Lives From Nation's Young Children
http://www.theonion.com/video/.....rme,27410/
Santorum Hits Romney for Olympics Bailout
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....mpics.html
Romney Ariz. campaign advisor quits after announcing he's gay
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-50.....g-hes-gay/
Salt Lake City Olympics earmarks a double-edged sword for Romney
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com.....for-romney
Ron Paul comments on latest Obama policies
http://www.thestatecolumn.com/.....-policies/
'People, they like the poetry'
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....30046.html
The Sacred Dogma of the Left
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....30047.html
The Fight the Left Wants
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....30041.html
Inside Free Syria
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....30045.html
Good Samaritans
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....30049.html
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At the top of the Hostess Ticket!
fish|2.18.12 @ 8:27PM|#
"...One half of the people found in a Nubian cemetery dating to as early as 12,000 years ago had died of violence. The Yellowknives tribe in Canada was effectively obliterated by massacres committed by Dogrib Indians, and disappeared from history shortly thereafter.[citation needed] Similar massacres occurred among the Eskimos, the Crow Indians, and countless others. These mass killings occurred well before any contact with the West...."
fish, nice job, but vermin shit is *not* interested in facts or logic.
As good as your effort is, vermin shit has had his hat handed to him many times, and it has no effect at all.
Consider this: Let's say you're playing chess with vermin shit. You check-mate his king. Vermin shit then moves a pawn and claims to win!
Rules of logic, facts, observation are irrelevant to vermin shit; vermin shit says "I'M RIGHT!" regardless.
Vermin shit is vermin shit; it deserves to be scraped off your shoe. Nothing more.
Keeley writes for the Economist; what do you expect? Plus it's ironic when Libertards go all Statists themselves. Funny. Every. Day.
Godensky excoriates Keeley in the following essays:
Noble or Savage? Both. (Part 1)
by Jason Godesky | 11 January 2008
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....th-part-1/
"The Savages are Truly Noble"
by Jason Godesky | 10 May 2007
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....uly-noble/
SEVO = CITY-STATIST VERMIN SHIT
Godensky excoriates Keeley in the following essays:
Referring to yourself in the third person now? Well done Fat Indian? Hey we miss your keen insights over at Global Guerrillas! Love that avatar! Although the proud pale warrior that you use at other sites really doesn't do justice to your Google Images photo
http://chicago2011.drupal.org/user/jefgodesky
where you resemble little more than a fat pale kid with a red dog turd on his head!
SEVO = CITY-STATIST VERMIN SHIT
See I was right last week when others were calling on you to be banned from this site...I said you were just now getting entertaining and were probably no more than a week or two from degenerating into the "you're a poopy head" argument.
Maybe I should write a paper describing your descent.....hmm...I think I'll call it "The 30 theses"...or maybe "On Godesky". Stay tuned
"Now that I have some big, meaty projects again"
We're sure you do, Jason.
"Although the proud pale warrior that you use at other sites really doesn't do justice to your Google Images photo
http://chicago2011.drupal.org/user/jefgodesky"
Godesky may or may not be the vermin shit posting here, but you might see in the link that Godesky works for "Essential Public Media".
Well, your tax dollars at work: EPM is "A local, wholly-owned subsidiary of independent public radio station WYEP-FM/Pittsburgh Community Broadcast Corp." Keep digging and you'll find it's nothing other than "Pravda" on the air-waves; government paid propaganda.
Hey, Jason, how's the milk from the "statist" teat?
If you really want to see a pathetic attempt at 'argument', check out "Godensky excoriates Keeley in the following essays:"
You bet! He writes "You're WRONG!". And repeats it!
Besides that, there's some circular reasoning tossed in, along with self -references.
If vermin shit is Godesky, he should be embarrassed.
ARRRGGGHHH!!! THE FIRE!!! IT BURNS!!!
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Of all the parties to pick, the Prohibition Party is the absolute worst.
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We can't continue
plundering and polluting
the earth indefinitely.
The feast is just about over,
and a grimly implacable waiter
is approaching with a
very large,
expensive,
unaffordable tab.
http://witsendnj.blogspot.com/
Bullshit.
and kill yourself.
This place has become an embarrassment.
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Prohibition!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Prohibition!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Prohibition!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Prohibition!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote [GAMBOLING].
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Cohiba!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Janet Tavkoli!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Fellatio!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Lehman Brothers!
I want 2000 Comments!
Vote Tulpa....tis all his fault!
I don't think we are going to make it!
[sigh]
Well I'm off to do some well earned [GAMBOLING].
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Vote Pedro
I feel that it's futile posting this comment; it seems like any coherent discussion here ended a while ago. But here goes...
If the argument is that a right to contraception is a positive right and therefore invalid, I wonder if Sheldon would reach the same conclusion as to other positive rights recognized in the US. Consider the right to trial by jury. That is an example of a positive right that is embraced in our Constitution and tradition. Would Sheldon argue that this right is inappropriate?
Similarly, the rights to due process of law and to equal protection are other explicitly recognized examples of positive rights that are not generally objected to by libertarians (or at least not to my knowledge). I don't see why a positive right to contraception differs from any of these, except to the extent that it imposes obligations on private actors (insurance companies) to provide free services. But merely because taxpayers foot the bill doesn't make it any different than trial by jury, which is also paid for by taxpayers.
"But merely because taxpayers foot the bill doesn't make it any different than trial by jury, which is also paid for by taxpayers."
So assuring justice = free contraception?
Sorry, simply because we accept a limited role of government where no reasonable alternative exists in no way justifies expanding the role where there is absolutely no requirement for same.
Accepting your reasoning means there is no limit for government intrusion.
Well, insofar as the two "rights" are "positive rights," I think it is difficult to distinguish what you call "assuring justice" and "free contraception." I mean simply to point out that a line of reasoning that rejects rights simply because they are "positive" must contend with the fact that many rights, which presumably are OK, are positive rights. I don't see how your post answers that concern.
Now that I consider it more, it seems that all the other positive rights I mentioned do share one thing in common: their ultimate purpose is to cabin government action. For example, trial by jury is a procedural restraint on conviction, a government action. But, it doesn't seem to me that distinction saves Sheldon's line of argument. Trial by jury is still a "positive right," and if we reject positive rights because they force others to do things they don't want to do, then it follows we must reject the right to trial by jury on the same grounds.
"Trial by jury is still a "positive right," and if we reject positive rights because they force others to do things they don't want to do, then it follows we must reject the right to trial by jury on the same grounds."
Uh, no. You missed this: "Accepting your reasoning means there is no limit for government intrusion."
Yes, we accept some few "positive rights" and they are specifically mentioned as such, not as 'other rights...'.
We do so, since we have found no way to accomplish the goal minus government action. Simply, they are a necessary evil.
Providing free rubbers doesn't pass the test.
"Uh, no. You missed this: 'Accepting your reasoning means there is no limit for government intrusion.'"
I didn't miss that, but nothing in my reasoning suggests there isn't a limit on government intrusion. I'm not arguing that we should recognize all possible positive rights. Other rights and the democratic process are limitations on government intrusion. It is possible simply to recognize only those positive rights that are created by law, like trial by jury and the right to free rubbers.
It seems to be your argument is simply: I like certain positive rights because "we have found no way to accomplish the goal minus government action" (a conclusion that is questionable, I think). But other positive rights aren't okay because I don't like them or I don't think that they are necessary. But that is hardly the argument Sheldon is making, which is simply that the right to free rubbers is a positive right, and therefore bad.
Let's try it simply:
*All* positive rights are not "rights" at all; they are a from of wealth redistribution in some amount.
They are to be avoided *except* in those few cases where we have yet to find a way to organize our society without them.
Similarly with taxation, the fact that an evil must be tolerated in some few circumstances in no way justifies that evil in other circumstances.
Now, rather than arguing 'since juries....', try arguing the absolute necessity of free rubbers and explain how this passes the 'can't do it otherwise' test.
How about compulsory process?
How about compulsory process?
I think you are correct that the right to free rubbers doesn't pass your absolute necessity or "can't do it otherwise test," but neither does trial by jury. Society could be organized in other ways (and definitely has been in the past). Even currently in the U.S., some trials are held by judges who, instead of juries, weigh the evidence and make conclusions of fact. Before trial by jury was even contemplated, trial by ordeal was the status quo. You can imagine a court system with fact-finder officers, inquisitors or something, that would replace juries. Consider civil law jurisdictions. The right to trial by jury is a positive right that seems just as arbitrary as the right to free contraception.
Antonio|2.19.12 @ 9:27PM|#
"I think you are correct that the right to free rubbers doesn't pass your absolute necessity or "can't do it otherwise test," but neither does trial by jury. Society could be organized in other ways (and definitely has been in the past). Even currently in the U.S., some trials are held by judges who, instead of juries, weigh the evidence and make conclusions of fact."
Fail: Trial by judges is still *required* and not available absent redistribution.
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"Before trial by jury was even contemplated, trial by ordeal was the status quo"
Uh, yes, that's the reason to yield to the evil and provide the redistribution.
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"You can imagine a court system with fact-finder officers, inquisitors or something, that would replace juries."
I can imagine unicorns; you're falling farther behind
-----------
"The right to trial by jury is a positive right that seems just as arbitrary as the right to free contraception."
Only to those who have a difficult time with logic.
Don't mean to put words in Sheldon's mouth, but I'd say positive rights are inappropriate unless specifically guaranteed in the Constitution.
All the examples Antonio gave are, and for the reasons Sevo suggests.
"Don't mean to put words in Sheldon's mouth, but I'd say positive rights are inappropriate unless specifically guaranteed in the Constitution."
Exactly. They are enumerated privileges, granted by the government (unlike rights or more properly "freedoms") specifically since they have yet to be found organic to a free society.
Using those few examples to justify free stuff is dishonest at best.
"I can imagine unicorns; you're falling farther behind"
The scenario I described is more or less the model in civil law jurisdictions. Trial by jury is only one way to determine facts in a proceeding, certainly not the only one. That example suggests trial by jury is not as "organic to a free society" as you argue.
So if a Constitutional amendment specifically guaranteeing the right to contraception were to pass, you would no longer object? I don't understand why this should make any difference.
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Wow, is there any way to stop the insane spamming? Even I'm sick of this shit.
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"Enhancements" are just around the corner.
reason.. do some diligence and come up with a voting system.. i aint gonna scroll through piles and piles of crap mountain high (pun to one of the first steaming pile of posts) to find useful discussions.. sort posts through votes and bury the useless time wasting crap. do some diligence and stop making your comment section appearing amateurish compared to countless other comment sites out there on major sites, thanks
Ever see one get elected?
...get elected?
LULZ
That's why Fibertarians can't sell their ideology, no matter how hard they peddle it, in the free market of ideas. Everybody can tell Fibertarianism is a confidence game.
Ooooooohhhhh! Must fight impulse to cite article.....I wrote....must resist......what would Godesky do in this situation....want to pretend to be wildman...must not pontificate on subjects I really don't understand.............MOMMY!
That's why Primitards can't sell their ideology, no matter how hard they peddle it, in the free market of ideas. Everybody can tell Primitardism is a confidence game.
You're not going to pay too much for a muffler!
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"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
"We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
It is past time you used that right you have reserved.
...about as useful as Jason Godesky.