Contraception Coverage and the Stupid "War On Religion" Redux
My colleague Nick Gillespie made the excellent point two days ago that if health insurance coverage were de-linked from government funding and mandates, then the current "war on religion" nonsense that some politicians are peddling with regard to the requirement that organizations run by the Roman Catholic Church buy health insurance the covers contraceptives would never have occurred. People could use their own money or (as Nick suggested) vouchers to buy whatever kind of health insurance they wanted.
One more issue: health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees. Since that is so, why should the employer's views on the morality of health insurance coverage trump that of their employees?
University of Pennsylvania bioethicist Art Caplan has posed an interesting hypothetical in his latest MSNBC column:
Imagine that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is based in Brooklyn, NY, creates a printing company that happily employs people from many faiths and cultural backgrounds. The company's sole task is to print all the Witness literature that its followers distribute door-to-door all over the world. That literature clearly states the Jehovah's Witnesses adamant opposition to blood transfusion. Then the federal government then issues a national set of minimal standards which all companies operating as public entities must provide as part of the health insurance coverage they offer.
The Governing Body is outraged because on that list are blood transfusions. They issue a statement accusing the President of trying to crush religious liberty by forcing their printing company, which employs many non-Jehovah's witnesses, to cover transfusions.
In that instance, would politicians be rushing to slam the health care plan on the basis of religious freedom? Would anyone in the media be sympathetic if the entire leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses said they would not budge an inch in including coverage of blood transfusions at their printing company no matter what government, doctors or even their own employees believe that ought to have covered? I doubt it.
And yet, this is exactly the reaction that has greeted the pronouncement by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that they feel persecuted by the inclusion of birth control in the list of covered benefits that they need to provide when they operate institutions in the public arena.
Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away. But as far as I know none of the members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy nor any of the grandstanding politicians on either side is making that sensible suggestion.
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Theocrats and technocrats at war with one another. Popcorn, I say!
Bet if altar boys could get pregnant, the priestcraft would be all for contraception.
I know I would cause i am a perverted sob
just reading that gets teh gay on me so cut it out.
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This is just evidence of how fucked up ObamaCare's coverage requirements really are.
You only get situations like this if you're micromanaging the health insurance market to the point that your requiring insurance covarage for something that is a known monthly $12 expense.
It's like requiring everyone to buy insurance to cover their garbage bill.
HM: Just one point - it's not just ObamaCare: a lot of states require that health insurance cover contraceptives.
which further reinforces the point of why govt should be out of the insurance business. State requirements are largely built on which medical specialty does the best lobbying to get its service covered.
The government should be out of the Land regulation business that creates artificial borders to restrict free movement of free people.
Officer, am I free to gambol?
Officer, am I free to munch at the produce section of the grocery store?
Science Damn It! Why doesn't this fucker leave?
It's no less insane when states do it. Insurance is for expenses you can't predict. (That's a fucking definition of what isnsurance is for - risk management). Since contraceptive are something you make a conscious choice to use, it is inherently impossible not to know in advance when you are going to be using them.
That's true, ObamaCare was simply another step along an existing path.
Note 20 of the 28 have a religious exemption-- which I agree is stupid, there shouldn't be a mandate at all.
A couple of states have the compromise of saying that employers must offer a contraception option, but not all plans must cover it.
And here's my reminder that hormonal contraception, like many prescription drugs, is not just prescribed to keep us loose, depraved whores from getting knocked up, so we can continue to sleep with anything on three legs that will buy us a drink, sailor.
15 million women in the U.S. are prescribed hormonal birth control to regulate hormone imbalances that can be painful and even life-shortening or life-threatening.
And that's why it pisses me off when an employer refuses to cover B/C pills claiming it's "immoral." Yes, most women are using the Pill for the primary use for which it was developed. But one in 10 women of childbearing/menstruating age have hormonal imbalances that are usually treatable with the Pill (along with some other drugs that were originally developed for other purposes).
For a health plan to cover treatment for any other illness, but not cover that, is assholery. But then again, when I think of the Catholic church, "assholery" is pretty much what I think of. Unfortunately, so do some of their priests.
And here's MY reminder that you can afford something that costs $12 by cutting out 4 trips to Starbucks. Bonus, I'm not forced to subsidize your medicine that way.
Exactly, pay for it yourself and shut the fuck up.
My work insurance plan pays for any pills I need, 100%. It's an investment they make in their employees because they want to keep them around.
Does yours? I somehow suspect you don't even have a job, or that if you do, it has something to do with pizza delivery. If you got cancer, I guess I'd tell you the same thing. Shut the fuck up and either pay for treatment yourself, or die.
I won't debate an intellectual half-wit. Cancer and fucking aren't the same thing, nor is cancer and some hysterical blather about hormones. You are a bigot, deal with it.
And here's my reminder that maybe you could stop eating your mommy out to keep having her pay for your video games and p0rn, and pay for your own meds for real medical conditions, too. As long as we're making everybody pay for their own prescription meds for treating real illness 'n' shit.
Again, for those of you who didn't read, this is one of about a zillion prescription meds that's now used to treat stuff other than the purpose for which it was originally designed. Viagra is also prescribed to treat things other than old men who can't get it up. And that "$12 a month" claim is total bullshit.
Hey, why have insurance, again?
The Catholic Church is not opposed to the use of birth control pills for medical purposes. However, it's been around long enough (2,000 years, actually) to know when it's being bullshitted.
"And that's why it pisses me off when an employer refuses to cover B/C pills claiming it's "immoral."
Rime to change your handle, as you certainly think you are entitled.
Or like requiring auto insurance cover oil changes and car washes.
Or like requiring that auto insurance cover refills of your gasoline tank.
If Catholics are free to practice their beliefs, then Rastafarians should be free to express theirs, with no legal ramifications.
I hope you are not under the impression that libertarians would have a problem with that.
Oh, lordy, no, Killaz.
That question was actually for the Team Members. My bad.
Don't equate Catholicism, an ancient and beautiful religion with Rastafranism, a "religion" that worships an African dictator and marijuana.
If that mattered The Founders would have clarified given that at various times there were cult movements that spread among the populace, and most of The Founders were members of congregations who were commonly perceived as more radical for there time than Mormonism is commonly thought of today.
Freedom of religion means freedom of thought.
Freedom of thought means freedom of action. That's the one a lot of religious folks have trouble coming to terms with.
Old doesn't necessarily make it better. Last week's fish shows that.
Beautiful? Have you read that book? (Plot spoiler alert) All generations of man are punished for eating a piece of fruit, and it's all solved by the murder, execution by a series of slow tortures, of a man for crimes he didn't commit. He and his followers advocated all kinds of collectivism (and even literal communism in Luke's second scroll, a.k.a. Acts), but nobody deserves that.
And there's all sorts of atrocities this "loving and caring God" commits along the way, including the most thorough genocide ever recorded.
He should have escaped to the Los Angles underground and worked as a soldier of fortune.
Religious freedom means that even the silliest religion is the same before the law as the oldest and best established. And the beauty of the catholic church that I can see is all in its buildings, which woudl be there with or without the church.
My worship of Kali demands human sacrifice, your laws against murder are a war on religion.
Shut up, you were eaten by crocodiles at the end of the movie.
I was talking about the marijuana part, Grey Panther.
Then again, as long as Rastafarians aren't murdering people, or stealing, or abusing their children or spouses, and aren't Congressmen... what's it to you?
As long as they don't impair themselves while operating equipment which is dangerous to others, I have no problem with that.
Me either. Same goes for the Indians who want to get high on peyote.
And so should everyone else, whether or not they belong to some established group. It seems to me that freedom of religion must mean that no government agent can define what is or is not a religion. If I say something is my religion, then, as far as the law is concerned, that is my religion.
Except that the employees' rights aren't being respected. The employees are being denied the right to choose a health plan that doesn't include contraception. Some Catholic institutions, like DePaul, offer multiple coverage plans, where the base plan doesn't cover contraception but the employee can choose a contraception rider by paying extra premiums for it.
It has nothing to do with employee choice when the government bans employees from choosing between a health plan that covers incidental regular coverage, and a catastrophic health care plan (with or without an HSA.)
A) Only an idiot would buy insurance to cover their contraceptives.
B) ALL EMPLOYMENT BASED INSURANCE DENIES EMPLOYEES OPTIONS TO CHOOSE FROM.
Every employer-based plan in the world, by definition, provides a finite set of options. There are an infin ite number of options that the employee is being denied. Insurance coverage for toilet paper purchases might be one of them, for instance.
A) Well, yes. But the rights of idiots to make bad choices must be defended, just not their ability to make the rest of us pay for it.
B) Yes, obviously it does, and that's why employer offered health insurance is bad.
However, that's no particular reason to limit the set of choices even more. Plenty of employers do offer multiple health insurance plans with different coverage. Some Catholic groups already do. It's another possible compromise.
Arguing ad absurdum is not particularly helpful here. By definition, even people buying health insurance plans themselves have a finite set of options as well, because there's only a finite number of health insurance companies and plans out there. If you really want maximum choice, you have to self-insure.
So it's more reasonable to focus on the effects at the margin, which is why I'm against reducing the number of choices offered.
"A) Only an idiot would buy insurance to cover their contraceptives."
I'm not sure about that. In the f'ed up insurance market that we have plus with insurers' market power, it is entirely possible that (price of insurance plan with contraceptives)-(price of insurance plan without contraceptives) is less than (cost of contraceptives without insurance coverage).
It's possible the contraceptive coverage would function like vision plans do in the health insurance market-- more like a "frequent buyer's discount" where you save money on frames and lenses in exchange for buying them more often than you would otherwise.
In a sane insurance market, only an idiot would buy insurance to cover contraceptives.
In our current fucked up insurance market where someone else always pays for everything you spend, it makes sense to use insurance to get as much free shit as you can.
Probably. I still leave open the possibility that insurer market power plus their interest in limiting payment for pregnancies would result in at least some insurers making a market-based decision to cover contraceptives in all plans. There's no way to know how that would work out in our insane insurance system though.
Medical insurance companies are the very soul of artificial, unnecessary transaction costs. Clear away all the obstacles to bargaining and infringements on property rights and Coase theorem will operate.
Are you saying that medical insurance in some form would be unnecessary in a free market? I doubt that. Even with price reductions that would likely come about, some medical procedures would still be far beyond the average person's ability to pay out of savings. I think people would insure against those risks. And once they insure those risks, the medical insurance companies might try to encourage other behavior to reduce those risks.
Are you saying that medical insurance in some form would be unnecessary in a free market? I doubt that.
Medical insurance as we know it is clearly unnecessary. In a free market it would look a lot more like life insurance or an umbrella policy. They cover big, rare events and are cheap. Also, a free market in medicine would make many procedures far cheaper. Look at all the people who fly to Central America to get procedures done, and all the American doctors who fly there to do them. When it's cheaper for the doctor and patient to travel three thousand miles than to do it at home, something else is driving up the price.
Well, pregnancies are fairly predictable as well. You know at least a few months in advnace when you are going to give birth and can set aside money to pay for it (or you should). Again, in a sane insurance market, where you can't use insurance to get free shit for yourself.
I can see a rationale for insurance companies to offer free contraceptives in a market where they can't charge people with frequent unplanned pregnancies any more than anyone else. If they could actually price according to risk, people would only buy insurance for things they couldn't predict. But as long as insurance rates are mandated to be lower than what you're likely to spend, it makes sense to buy as much coverage as possible.
Is the number of unplanned pregnancies per person really high enough that insurance companies could have an actuarial model for it and predict risk? I don't think so.
There are plenty of unplanned happy accidents, including among couples that weren't really planning to have that third child. Do you really not know people who have two children and then aren't particularly trying for a third, but if they have one, they have one?
And yes, while the couples know by their habits something about their risks of getting pregnant, surely the insurance companies wouldn't know for sure-- aside from being able to determine the risk based on whether or not the couple got a vasectomy, got birth control, or whatever.
I can think of plenty of reasons for individuals to want insurance against the costs of an unexpected child, and plenty of reasons for health insurance companies to want to monitor contraception use in order to determine the chance of additional births, expected or not.
I can think of plenty of reasons for individuals to want insurance against the costs of an unexpected child, and plenty of reasons for health insurance companies to want to monitor contraception use in order to determine the chance of additional births, expected or not.
Meh...I can think of plenty of reasons why individuals would want to push off their irresponsibility onto insurance companies, but the insurance companies should be able to say "we only cover contraceptives and abortion; any pregnancy carried to term is a choice and thus an uninsurable event."
Is the number of unplanned pregnancies per person really high enough that insurance companies could have an actuarial model for it and predict risk? I don't think so.
Are you nuts? Of course there are. And of course they do. It's one of the reasons they used to charge women more insurance premiums. Yet another thing ObamaCare bans.
The thing is that most pregnancies are planned. At one time, people used to put off marrying until they could afford children.
Wouldn't someone who thought that he or she was going to have a lot more sex than the average person buy such insurance?
No. Whether or not you have a lot of sex, you know you're going to spend money on contraceptive when you make the decision to use contraceptive.
There is no luck or random process involved. You know exactly what you are going to spend, in advance. You can predict exactly how much the contraceptive will cost you. Just because you are more likely to make the decision to use contraceptives, does not mean their cost to you is any less predictable.
*You*, but the insurance company doesn't. So the premiums charged will be based on that of an average person, and if you use more than average, you'll have an incentive to sign up.
It doesn't matter whether the costs to you is predictable or not, it matters whether or not your costs are predictable to the insurer.
Your question was whether an *individual* would choose to buy coverage for contraceptives if he/she knew she would have a lot of sex.
From an insurance standpoint, the insurer ought to simply be able to ask "Are you planning to use birth control?". It's not like people can't predict when they are going to use birth control.
With the exception of morning-after pills, you either descide to take a pill every day or you don't.
But morning-after pills are included in this mandate, so it still applies.
Even aside from morning-after pills, which are included in the this mandate, there are plenty of women who try birth control and find that they can't handle the side effects. There are others that, because of the side effects, only get birth control when they're in a steady relationship or otherwise expecting to be sexually active.
Since people tend to sign up for health insurance for fairly long terms, one can easily sign up for health insurance expecting to use it and then not do so.
I'm sure that there would be people opting for the coverage that ended up not using, whether because of side effects, not being sexually active, deciding to use condoms because of side effects, or whatever. If you actually *knew* that you were going to use it, then you'd be better off because of the people who signed up and didn't actually use it.
It's simply not true that people actually perfectly predict their contraceptive usage. Therefore, if you actually can, and you know you'll be using it a great deal, it can make sense to sign up.
I don't think you're getting it.
You're talking about the decision of whether or not to get a $12 packet of birth control pills as if it was an event beyond your control. Regardless of whether you have made the decesion whether to use birth control at the time you sign up, once you make the decision, it is a known expense. Do you really think it makes sense to insure against your own future choices? Like, one day you might spontaneously decide to buy a ferrari, so you'd better have insurance to cover that? Except in this case you are insuring against a measly $12 expense? Seriously?
I really hate the collectivism implied in Ronald's post and that of the ethics guy. Why should the collective view of the employees decide on a One True Plan that all must have? Why is choosing among multiple plans not allowed?
JT: What collectivism is implied by: "Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away." Give the money to the employees and let them individually buy whatever the hell plan they think is best for them.
With regard to sarcasmic's point below - If one doesn't think that income spent on health insurance should be taxed, then allow people to deduct it. Frankly, I favor a flat tax with no deductions for anything, but that's a whole other topic.
The collectivism is implied by "Since that is so, why should the employer's views on the morality of health insurance coverage trump that of their employees?" and your view of Art Caplan's hypothetical as "interesting." It makes it sound like in the absence of moving away from employer based plans, you have no issue with the employees collectively deciding on one plan for all.
The reality is that many employers do offer multiple plans, some of which are catastrophic and some of which are not.
A compromise would be, for example, to force all employers to have at least one plan that covers contraception, or to offer a contraception rider (as dumb as that would be.)
Catholic institutions have already demonstrated, like DePaul, that they're willing to offer multiple plans, some of which cover contraception, and some of which do not. You are misrepresenting their position and the compromises that they've indicated are possible.
I agree that it would be better to move toward individual insurance, or vouchers, or catastrophic care with HSAs for small things for precisely reasons of freedom. But differences on the margin still matter.
Employers do take their employees' views in to account when deciding what plans to offer. The rule is bad because it reduces the diversity of plans on offer and destroys existing compromises.
The collectivism is implied because you don't take a stand on the mandate, given that we're inside this flawed system.
I certainly agree with your point that employers should be out of the business. But given that we're not, mandates reduce choice, of both employer and employee, so I'm against it.
Your response is analogous to libertarians who totally duck the issue of public schools teaching creationism, because there shouldn't public schools anyway.
JT: Wrote about my solution to the public schools creationism conundrum a while back. I think you might like my solution.
Again, I agree with that as a general goal. I just don't like your habit of ducking what to do in the short run.
If you were *forced* to take a stand on this mandate policy, what would you do?
I don't think it's fair to say that it's entirely a fake issue. Would you truly flip a coin?
I do see that you view both sides as equally wrong here, but I don't. I think that a mandate is worse and reduces choice. The evidence is that Catholic institutions will provide a choice of plans both with and without contraception coverage, without a mandate.
Therefore, in the flawed regime we inhabit, one policy is preferable to me.
Tax issues aside, why shouldn't employers be free to provide health insurance coverage for their employees?
It's certainly possible that a large enough employer would form a useful and low risk group for coverage, so I don't think that it would be eliminated entirely, but I think younger employees would have an incentive to opt out and there could be a death spiral.
Although the younger employees could just get cheaper coverage offered, OTOH.
Well, that's the problem with employment based insurance. If the employer is paying for it, the employer gets to decide what's in the plan.
If you want to choose your own options, don't use your employer's insurance. Buy your own plan on the individual market.
Well, it does generally take the employees' views into account as well. But in the case of the rule, neither the employers nor employees are actually deciding.
Obviously I agree with the general principle. But I also disapprove of rules that reduce choice even within the existing flawed system.
Well, the problem is that THAT'S THE PROBLEM with our entire health care system right now. The people making the choices have no financial responsibility for those choices. Someone else is paying.
Fundamentally the onyl way the cost spiraling is going to stop is to make sure that the people who are paying through the nose get to have some control over hwat they are spending.
We can't just allow employees to have as many options as they want and the employer will pay for it. That will just encourage further cost spiraling. The employee must pay a price for additional insurance coverage. If he wants insurance that covers birth control, he should be paying, essentially, an addition $12 per month on his plan (or whatever the cost of a monthly packet of birth control is).
Sure. But that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. At employers that offer multiple levels of health coverage, the more comprehensive insurance results in larger payroll deductions from the employee. The employee would pay the additional $12 per month on his plan.
Everywhere I've worked, and everyone my friends have worked has offered multiple plans, with different choices of payroll deductions, some of which are quite dramatic.
Where have y'all worked? Small businesses only?
This is what happens at every employer that offers multiple health plans that I know of. The PPO is this much in payroll deduction, the HMO this much, the High Deductible plus HSA plan this much, etc.
The employer does it as a payroll deduction so that it can be made non-taxable.
Except, here's the catch. While the president can order all insurance plans to cover more stuff, the federal government also limits thier ability to increase rates. So the president can simply, by executive order, increase the amount of free shit you can get, and your employer or the insurer must suck up the expense.
Yes, and mandates are bad. That's why I'm against them. I'm completely against the feds or states from having mandates. (The rate increase power I'm less worried about absent the mandates; math and actuarial science will force reality in the end, but it may be messy.)
That's why I'm arguing for no mandates, for the option of choice, and for people paying the extra money for those choices (even if you or I think that they're dumb, the equivalent of covering oil changes-- which people do on new luxury cars these day.)
I'm not disagreeing with you at all about the mandate or the stupidity of employer offered health insurance.
I'm just saying that employers can and do offer multiple plans, the plans with more comprehensive coverage cost the employee more, and that should solve the problem already.
That would require that comprehensive plans be priced according to their actuarial value. Which they won't be, because we know that ObamaCare prohibits insurers from charging any one customer more than X times another. This means that minimal coverage plans will be overpriced, and maximal coverage plans will be underpriced. Which means it is in your self interest to buy the maximal coverage plan and lobby for it to cover as much crap as possible.
Yes, that is a big problem with Obamacare. However, I think that the prohibition has to do with charging a different amount based on age, not on charging a different amount for plans with substantially different coverage. Thus, that rule discriminates against the young and healthy and helps the baby boomers, but all employer plans I know about do that already by charging young and old the same.
Pre-Obamacare, the plans were priced according to actuarial value, at least at my company. I know because I called up benefits and asked exactly how much the full premiums were to the company for each of the plans, to compare with the payroll deductions. The company was paying the same amount, within about $20 a month, for each.
I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about claiming that no customer can be charged more than X times another on different plans. It's a bad regulation, but it applies to people on the same plan IIRC.
You may be right, but even then Obama care has it's own tiered pricing schemes built in with Bronze, Silver and Gold tiers, and detailed requirements for what any plan in each tier must cover.
Effectively, ObamaCare eliminates the vast majority of all variation between plans and strictly regulates plan coverage and pricing within a tier.
Finally, given the guarenteed issue clause it effectively means that everyone buying within a tier will be purchasing the lowest priced plan, because all plans have to accept you regardless of rick, and there will be so little variation between plans that the only distinguishing feature will be price.
Effectively, you'll be choosing between Pepsi and Coke, with a couple of features and a few dollars difference between them.
Yep, I agree with that. That is why I oppose Obamacare, and I oppose mandates.
However, if what you say is entirely true, then doesn't it follow that this one-way ratchet will occur if employers and employees are allowed to voluntarily decide what to include in their plans? How would you stop that? Are you seriously arguing that we should enforce a maximum allowable policy mandate, and restrict choice, in order to counteract the bad incentives of Obamacare?
I couldn't follow there.
No, I think employers should be free to charge their employees whatever they want for the policy options employees desire.
You get One Plan, because it's expensive to offer Multiple Plans. But you're still not required to take the One Plan. Just decline coverage and buy your own insurance as an individual instead of as a group.
It doesn't matter if it's the government, or the employer, or a church, or a chess club, offering the insurance. Providing a one-size-fits all plan for a group is cheaper than providing custom plans for everyone.
Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away.
Ronald Bailey wants to tax your health insurance!
Seriously though, how would that work?
If the health insurance component of employee compensation becomes part of the paycheck, allowing the employee to choose the insurer, then wouldn't it be taxed like other income?
Make it a deduction?
How would a voucher program work for health insurance?
Making it a deduction has been proposed. McCain proposed making it a voucher program / refundable tax credit (with the effect that it would have been worth more money to the poor than the current deduction, but less to the well off. But people don't really care about the poor, not Democrats either, just the middle class, as Romney accurately admitted.)
A lot of large employers self-insure and just have an insurance company administering it. So extricating employers from health insurance is harder than it seems at first.
Well yeah, but the administration doesn't like that option. Instead we get reinforced employment based insurance, an individual mandate, and a detailed list of exactly what every plan has to offer.
Clusterfuck extravaganza.
S-corp owners can deduct their health expenses as a line-item. It is feasible for employees to do that as well, just not legal at this point.
And it's actually been attached as a rider to a number of bills since, oh, the mid '90s, but never in something that's been passed by both House and Senate and signed.
Jehovah's Witnesses take blood products now in 2012.
They take all fractions of blood. This includes hemoglobin, albumin, clotting factors, cryosupernatant and cryopoor too, and many, many, others.
If one adds up all the blood fractions the JWs takes, it equals a whole unit of blood. Any, many of these fractions are made from thousands upon thousands of units of donated blood.
Jehovah's Witnesses can take Bovine *cow's blood* as long as it is euphemistically called synthetic Hemopure.Jehovah's Witnesses also take whole blood, as long as it's called "current therapy." This is something not found in medical literature, per se.But, it is described by the religion as a taking of blood from a person, mixing it with compounds in a lab, and later retransfusing the blood back into the patient.
The fact that the JW blood issue is so unclear is a detriment and downright dangerous in the emergency room.
And Catholics use contraceptives. What was your point again?
this whole thing is a smokescreen, something the Administration is good at putting up. Meanwhile, taxpayers are on the hook for billions more in bailouts for mortgages, we're buying cell phones for deadbeats, and pondering which country to bomb next.
The health coverage religious organizations offer is between them and their employees. Caplan's argument is ridiculous; birth control pills carry a nominal cost and no one forces anyone to work for places with values they don't agree with.
My answer to Art Caplan's "interesting hypothetical" is that it's not that interesting. I'm against mandates.
Another "sensible suggestion" is to encourage HSAs with employer coverage, so that small expenses like this would really just be up to the employee, with no employer involvement.
"Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away"
Only if you also get the government out of the business of mandating what has to be covered by health insurance and mandating that people buy it at all.
Why should the individual have to buy a policy that covers contraceptives - or buy a policy at all if he doesn't want to.
"...a form of compensation offered by an
employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees."
It is the employer's money, and his to offer as he chooses. Where is the libertarianism in telling the employer what is his, how to use it?
There isn't a magic Libertarian Charity Fairy Solution? ? ? or money source, and the employer views trump all; you can always find another job
I never have to worry about contraception because guys only allow me to blow them. 🙁
Also, because I am a dickgirl.
You know if you can't ignore me, they will make you clean the floor
-with your tongue
I clean my dickgirl parts with my tongue.
The morality of the employer "trumps" because the employer lays out the contract. If the employee doesn't like it, he can take a walk.
Citing that moronic bioethcist does not speak very well to your allegiance to free market principles, Mr. Bailey.
I agree. I don't understand where Bailey is getting the idea that the employee is entitled to compensation in the form of their choosing.
Sorry Ron, but this sentence is terrible - "health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees." It's the employer who is paying the employee. If the employee doesn't like how they are getting compensated, be it through insurance or other forms of compensation they can go work somewhere else. The employer is not obligated to hand over compensation in the form of the employees choosing.
Terrible argument.
RBM & TM: For the moment forget the fact that the chief reason that employers purchase health insurance for their employees is because it is a form of untaxed income to employees.
So let's say your employer pays you $30,000 per year and offers health insurance costing $5,000 per year - total compensation package $35,000 per year (again not worrying about the tax problem). So why not just give the full amount of compensation - $35,000 to you and you get to pick your own health insurance plan in conformity with your conscience. That seems to be really free market to me.
Apparently others (you?) want to use the stupid fact that our tax system results in third parties (employers) buying health insurance for other people (employees) as an excuse to fight some kind of ridiculous religious war.
Hold your horses there, Mr. Bailey. I was specifically objecting to this language:
Their "version of morality" trumps because they are the employer, and they therefore set the terms and conditions of employment.
I think that even with a vibrant individual market for health insurance and no employer-based insurance, we face the same problem. States are always adding mandatory coverage to minimum insurance policies. New Jersey would be a prime example of that.
In addition to killing the employer based insurance system, we need to scrap the the mandatory coverages and address the issue of portability across states.
why not just give the full amount of compensation - $35,000 to you and you get to pick your own health insurance plan in conformity with your conscience.
Sounds great! Plus I'm sure my employer would love to eliminate the giant cost of administering group health plans to the several thousand employees in the company. There is more to the cost of providing benefits to employees than the extra $5K you are listing in your above argument.
Apparently others (you?) want to use the stupid fact that our tax system results in third parties (employers) buying health insurance for other people (employees) as an excuse to fight some kind of ridiculous religious war.
This is where you are losing me Ron. This isn't a "ridiculous religious war", this is a blatant over reach by the administration which ignores the basic fundamentals of the First Amendment. Your disregard for this reality is actually pretty disappointing.
The "ridiculous religious war" is having a mandate. It's imposing morality, even if that morality isn't strictly religious.
The mandate is strictly incompatible with choice.
I understand that you oppose the tax regimes that lead to employer coverage. So do I! I just want to know your position on mandates, given that we're inside this heavily flawed system.
You didn't state your position on mandates cleanly, Ron, just a "pox on both your houses."
If someone passed a law saying "all schools must teach Creationism," Ron, would you call it a "ridiculous religious war" and blame equally the people opposing the mandate as those supporting, simply because you think that there ought to be universal educational vouchers?
Bailey you have never owned a business; you failed to consider tax/cost applications
Ron, even without government distortion some employers would still offer group medical coverage (it is NOT insurance). If the employer buys coverage for 2000 people, it will get a large discount. They pass the savings to employees, making themselves a more attractive employer and lowering employment costs.
Of course, the employer should have the right to set the terms and options.
stuartl: Perhaps so. On the other hand, I strongly suspect that other types of group coverage (and discounts) would evolve in a free market health insurance environment. Dare I suggest that some people might join group plans offered by their churches?
I love that you are in the jerk circle; it says so much about you
"$35,000 to you and you get to pick your own health insurance plan in conformity with your conscience. That seems to be really free market to me."
Yes, it is, but who here was arguing against that scenario? And, of course, Obama's decree also prevents evryone purchasing insurance from buying a plan that does not include contraceptives, even if the reason is pragmatic (has no real need of them, due to age, for instance).
This.
I think we all agree that employer-based health insurance is bad, but that's not what's up for debate right now. Health insurance is part of an employee's compensation package, and as such, should be subject to negotiations between the employee and the employer. When the government steps in and mandates anything having to do with compensation for employment, it encroaches on the freedom of both employer and employee to freely enter into a contract on their own terms.
Llama: You say "that's not what's up for debate right now." My argument is that it should be. My last two sentences:
Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away. But as far as I know none of the members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy nor any of the grandstanding politicians on either side is making that sensible suggestion.
Oh, it should be. In fact, it was. When McCain made a suggestion that would have moved us in that direction, Senator Obama ran ads that I saw every hour in Virginia blasting the plan.
It was up for debate, the people voted against it, and now politicians are scared to touch it again.
Given that, I think it's still reasonable to ask what we do in the short run. In the short run, I oppose the mandate.
JT: Since the RC hierarchy objects to buying health insurance with contraceptive coverage, why don't they just tell the employees in the RC-related institutions that they will no longer offer any health insurance as part of their compensation?
So Bailey has no problem with the government mandating that health insurance always include such coverage? He seems more bothered that employers would offer insurance as a benefit at all, than that the government is dictating the terms of coverage.
Employers should be able to continue to offer health insurance a benefit if they so desire and what level of benefit they are willing to offer should be their choice.
Ron,
It absolutely should be, but you also pointed out in your last two sentences that it's not. In fact, no one with a horse in this race is even considering ending the current system. Given that, I think it's reasonable to assume that it will be a long time before employer-based health insurance will go away. In the interim, how that system is managed between employer and employee should be left between employer and employee.
And the Jehova analogy is only interesting in that it is one giant logical disaster. It attempts to justify violating the rights of one group who happens to be powerful enough to oppose it by pointing out that we violate the rights of less powerful groups all the time and no one makes a fuss about it. I would hope that Reason would make an issue of this whether it were Jehovas, Catholics, or anyone else.
"If the employee doesn't like it, he can take a walk."
I came here to say pretty much this, although ideally the negotiation would have some room for motion in either direction.
I don't get how this is a woman's rights issue... since when does anyone have the right to free stuff, whether it's good for them or not?
Also, I've generally come to realize anyone with the title "bioethicist" should probably be ignored. Most of them either hate technology or hate the idea that people should be free to develop or use the technologies that they want to.
It's a women's rights issue because if you don't give women free stuff it's because you hate them and are actively trying to keep the repressed.
keep them repressed.
Oh my god, you don't see?
If you don't give women free contraceptives, it's EXACTLY the same as taking away their right to vote and telling them to get back into the kitchen, where they belong. Barefoot and pregnant.
EXACTLY THE SAME!
Good point, and to that end add all employers should offer health insurance policies that cover shoes for female employees. Being a woman is not a preexisting condition! Fair deal, fair share, blah blah blah!
That's right. Everyone knows that women just spontaneously get pregnant if they don't take the pill.
It's a women's rights issue because biology is unfair to women, it's difficult for them to negotiate to get all their sex partners to pay a fair share of contraception, if they get pregnant it's inherently more difficult for them to get men to share the burden (resulting in legal rules that can be unfair to innocent men, yes), and they know that the effect of these policies is a strict transfer of money from men to women.
Of course, these policies are also a transfer of money from people who aren't getting any to people who are having sex. However, people who are asexual or just have terrible sex lives aren't organizing to protest. Frankly, if you're not having sex, it's insult to injury to have to subsidize those of us who are.
It's a women's rights issue because biology is unfair to women,
Biology can't be "unfair" to women, any more than the weather can be "unfair" to Eskimos.
Biology is what it is. Like the weather. Its neither fair nor unfair.
"Frankly, if you're not having sex, it's insult to injury to have to subsidize those of us who are."
Unless you get to watch.
The Jehovah's Witnesses analogy works on the constitutional argument, but not on the public policy argument.
There's no Free Exercise Clause problem with requiring employers to provide health insurance to their workers over their religious objections. The law is one of general applicability, and it is not designed to single out or frustrate religious practice. Requiring religious employers to pay for contraceptives is legal for the same reason that I can't start the Church of Cheech & Chong, then claim an exemption from the marijuana laws.
Requiring Catholic employers (or any employer with a religious objection) to pay for things that are contrary to their beliefs is bad public policy, though. Contraceptives aren't expensive. Condoms are dirt-cheap and IUDs and generic contraceptive pills can be afforded by anyone with a job. I think you can get the pill for nine bucks at Wal-Mart. It's just dumb to pick a fight with a major employer by forcing it to do something unimportant that violates its beliefs.
If you pick an easily avoided fight with a church, you're an asshole.
Requiring religious employers to pay for contraceptives is legal for the same reason that I can't start the Church of Cheech & Chong, then claim an exemption from the marijuana laws.
Haven't Native Americans won exemptions from drug laws for peyote use? Haven't Amish groups won exemptions from laws requiring them to send their children to school past the 8th grade?
People's rights don't exist for society's convenience. It would be so much more convenient for society and, certainly, the government if it weren't necessary to respect people's rights.
Still, I think people's rights are worth protecting. Even if they are inconvenient. Our rights exist regardless of whether they're convenient for the rest of society to protect or they don't really exist at all.
Caution when generalizing from the Constitution's treatment of American Indians. The whole sovereignty thing creates complications that don't apply when dealing with palefaces.
As for Amish education exceptions, I'm not familiar with those cases, so I won't say much about them. But I do know that the constitutional right to raise your children according to your religious beliefs is stronger than your constitutional right to exercise your religious beliefs in your interactions with the world at large.
Don't Adventists, Quakers and others have a protected right to refuse to carry a gun--even when drafted--to serve as noncombatants?
We're not here for the government's convenience.
Yes, but that's not the debate here. You're debating general libertarian principles, which is fine, but that doesn't describe current First Amendment law.
The First Amendment doesn't permit anyone to ignore all laws they don't like because following them would violate their deeply held beliefs. That's why the Jehovah's Witnesses analogy has some persuasive power. Most people recognize that some exceptions should be made for religious beliefs, but we draw a line somewhere. So we can't just say "First Amendment" and expect that to settle the question of whether Catholic employers have to supply health insurance that pays for contraceptives.
The First Amendment doesn't permit anyone to ignore all laws they don't like because following them would violate their deeply held beliefs.
Again, peyote use is one example of the courts upholding someone's right to break the law becasue of their religious beliefs.
Amish people are given an exemption to the law that requires people to send their kids to school--past the 8th grade.
Anybody that wants conscientious objector status could claim it on religious grounds, and that right has been protected going back to World War II.
There are others.
Typically, the only time we see the courts fail to protect someone's free exercise rights is when it involves children. The courts have been reluctant to protect Christian Scientists rights to deny their sick children medical care, and they wouldn't protect Snake Handlers if they let their children handle snakes or drink strychnine either.
That having been said, as we've already said, the courts have protect people's rights to refuse compulsory education on religious grounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder
So, as long as it doesn't immediately impact anybody's children, I don't see why anyone's religious rights shouldn't be protected. And if the grown ups who work for these Catholic institutions would rather quit and work for some other organization that provides those benefits, then I think they should be perfectly free to do so.
Typically, the only time we see the courts fail to protect someone's free exercise rights is when it involves children.
Start the Church of Bob Marley and see if you can get around the marijuana laws. Start the Church of Lady Godiva and see if you can walk around your neighborhood with your schlong swinging around. Start the Church of the Unamended Constitution and try not paying any income tax.
The Church of the Unamended Constitution would not acknowledge the First Amendment, leaving themselves in a bit is a catch-22.
Start the Church of Bob Marley and see if you can get around the marijuana laws.
My understanding was that Benny Guerrero, a Rastafarian, lost his case--but not in spite of his religious beliefs. My understanding is that the court held that although Rastafarianism may have protected his right to possess and consume marijuana, it didn't protect his right to import marijuana. And that was what he got busted for at the airport.
Also, I don't think you should confuse what might happen to you now, if you properly assert your rights, with what should happen to people who properly assert their rights.
Rosa Parks was arrested for asserting her right not to be compelled to give up her seat becasue of her race--but that in no way suggests that she was wrong to do so.
There are recorded cases of the government stealing children from JW parents because they refused to let them get life saving blood transfusions. Of course the children are returned to the parents upon completion of the procedure and they have no recourse against the government.
I think I answered that.
The government will step in (as they should) when a child is in immediate danger.
In what way does Catholic institutions not providing for services that violate the church's teachings put children in immediate danger?
The government will step in (as they should) when a child is in immediate danger.
Really??? So it's alright if it's for the children?
Anyway, my post was just a follow-on to Pete's point about exceptions being made for religious beliefs.
You can't deny your kids life-saving techniques. I don't think this is inapposite to libertarianism is any way.
So your alright with violating somebody's freedom of religion then.
*you're
Would you rather there be a Magical Jesus Exemption to compliance with the law?
"Sorry, Your Honor, but my faith doesn't permit me to serve any time in prison."
"Sorry, your honor, my faith tells me I don't have to feed, bathe, or clothe my kids. Goooo Magic Jesus!"
"Sorry, Your Honor, but my faith doesn't permit me to serve any time in prison."
This brings up an interesting point.
We shouldn't conflate someone being convicted by a jury with someone being coerced by the president and his minions to do something by way of regulation--they're not the same thing.
The Catholic Church has not been charged with a crime, here. They're not being tried by a jury of their peers--rather than the government.
The president has decided to make a rule that will cause many Catholics to violate their religious convictions...if they want to go on doing things like healing the sick.
Not the same thing as being convicted of a crime.
"Sorry, your honor, my faith tells me I don't have to feed, bathe, or clothe my kids. Goooo Magic Jesus!"
Government regulation isn't the same thing as having to convince a jury the defendant committed a crime, and declining to offer reproductive health services out of deference to one's religious convictions isn't the same as neglecting a child, either.
That argument repeatedly pops up, however if you actually knew anything about the law, youd know that courts cannot translate canon. The JWs use many bible verses to defend their position, and whether you agree or not, it is outside of the court's jurisdiction to translate canon. But anyway, its obvious you dont really respect the beliefs of others, hence the sarcasm.
If their religion requires them to leet their child die when others are willing and able to save their life, then yes I am alright with violating their religious freedom. I woudl also be OK with violating the religious freedom of a religion that practices human sacrifice. I don't think that this shoudl be controversial.
If the human sacrifice was a freely chosen method of suicide, on the other hand...
Hey, you're beliefs are alright with me. I never said you can't believe that way. It's just a bit surprising to see people have no issue violating the first amendment. It's also interesting that you equate refusing a blood transfusion with murder.
And hey, what's the worst that could happen?
Suppose your child is bleeding to death. And you decide you aren't going to get him a blood transfusion even though you know that would save his life. I'd say that counts as murder. Or at least negligent causing of a death. And what religion you claim doesn't change that. Or do you think that people should never be culpable for failure to act?
You seem to be claiming that freedom of religion means you get to do whatever you want to if it is part of your religion, which is just absurd.
Or do you think that people should never be culpable for failure to act?
That's exactly what I think. No one should ever be held accountable for failure to act (provided the accident in question wasn't caused by the person in the first place).
If I see someone hit by a car on the road, begging for help, there should be no law punishing me for failure to do so. I would be a gargantuan dick, to be sure, but you're talking about a "right" to force others to assist you. No different than forcing hospitals to treat everyone who comes into the emergency room. You cannot have a right which compels others to act on your behalf; rights only preclude what others can do to you.
You have a point Jim. Except children are considered to be dependent on their parents until they reach the age of majority. Up till then, the failure of a parent to act isn't the same as your injured motorist scenario.
I am married to someone who was shunned by her JW family. I'd argue that that's the best thing that could happen to a JW.
I am married to someone who was shunned by her JW family. I'd argue that that's the best thing that could happen to a JW.
Violating your rights is OK because your religion is dumb anyway.
Violating your rights is OK because your religion is dumb anyway.
"Rights." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Besides, it should only violate the parents' freedom of religion, and that's only if we assume that they have some kind of pretty heavy property rights in their children...like, really heavy ones. Who says it violates the children's religious freedom to get the medical treatment? I mean, you'd have to ask the kids, and if we're talking about little ones, they aren't old enough to have a religion of their own.
they aren't old enough to have a religion of their own.
Why not? If you say it's because they're not old enough to make an informed decision then the parents make that decision for them and it results in the child following the parent's religion. That's the way it is with non-religious matters already.
What about when a 14-year-old is allowed to make the decision?
"So your alright with violating somebody's freedom of religion then."
Sometimes people's rights overlap and conflict with each other.
I happen to think there's a role for government in sorting that out. If, as a general rule, the government protects a child's right to live--over a parent's religious rights--then I'm okay with that as a general rule.
I don't see how that relates to the government deciding to force Catholics to either violate their religious convictions or abandon their mission, though.
If you're OK with the government violating the religious convictions of Jehovah's Witnesses then why are you against the government violating the convictions of Catholics. Is it a matter of degree? Because the use of contraceptives doesn't result in a death? Guess what, that's exactly how Catholics view contraceptive use.
Religion causes otherwise rational people to think and do irrational things. Personally I think all religions are ridiculous wastes of time but I'm not going to try to control those people who want to believe.
"If you're OK with the government violating the religious convictions of Jehovah's Witnesses then why are you against the government violating the convictions of Catholics."
One is being done to protect someone's rights, and the other is being done to violate someone's rights.
In the case of a child who may die without a transfusion, the state is acting to protect the child's rights.
In the case of the government forcing the Catholic church to do something that violates their religious convictions--whose rights are being protected? It's just a violation! Obama isn't acting to protect someone's rights--he just like the outcome where the Catholic's rights get screwed better.
An analogy to this is like...say a an armed robber took a hostage and locked her in his basement. And then a cop subsequently took that armed robber and threw him in jail. What's the difference between the two?
Well, the armed robber kidnapping someone and locking her in his basement is a violation of someone's rights, and when the cop threw the armed robber in jail, he did that to protect someone's rights.
That's a big difference, isn't it?
In the case of the government forcing the Catholic church to do something that violates their religious convictions--whose rights are being protected?
The rights of the child that will never be born because of the contraceptive use. Can't you see that Catholics BELIEVE that use of contraceptives results in the death of a (potential) baby? In their belief, contraceptive use = abortion, something they are also against.
Because you don't believe that contraceptive use doesn't result in the death of a child doesn't change the fact that Catholics do believe that.
Because you don't believe that contraceptive use doesn't result in the death of a child doesn't change the fact that Catholics do believe that.
Are you suggesting that becasue the official Catholic position regarding birth control is predicated on their religious beliefs--that their position shouldn't be protected by the First Amendment?
Not sure I'm following.
Is it a matter of degree? Because the use of contraceptives doesn't result in a death? Guess what, that's exactly how Catholics view contraceptive use.
No it's not. That's how they view abortion. They view contraceptive use as somehow contrary to God's plans.
If you're OK with the government violating the religious convictions of Jehovah's Witnesses then why are you against the government violating the convictions of Catholics.
Because following through on some convictions violates the rights of other people. You don't get a free pass on that just because you call "god."
Of course the children are returned to the parents upon completion of the procedure and they have no recourse against the government.
What recourse should they have? What recourse would the dead kid have had? Fuck them for wanting to let their kid die rather than admit that their core beliefs are wrong.
The problem with the exemptions given to the Native American Church and the Amish and such is that these are basically the only groups that are ever going to get such exemptions. Which is just bullshit. You shouldn't have to belong to an established and government approved group to have your rights respected. Either everyone should be able to disobey laws that they morally oppose, or no one should. I think it is a totally fucked up reading of the first amendment that gives religious groups special privileges that an individual does not have access to on his own. I also have a huge problem with giving the courts the power to judge the seriousness or sincerity of someone's belief.
Yes, yes, and yes. +1,000
I think it is a totally fucked up reading of the first amendment that gives religious groups special privileges that an individual does not have access to on his own.
I think any individual can join that religion if they want. If you want to claim a religious exemption, I think that should be considered.
It's important to distinguish between a couple of different processes here. We're talking about jury trials on the one hand. If a jury wants to convict you despite your religious beliefs, and an appeals court wants to strike down that conviction becasue of your religious beliefs, that's one process that's going on.
The situation where the church or someone else sues the government over a rule change because it violates someone's religious freedom is separate process. That's like the recent ruling that struck down Prop 8 in California. I don't think there's been a jury trial over gay marriage yet, and why should there be? If the courts are making calls on those sorts of issues, I think that's a good thing. I certainly don't trust Congress or the president to defend our rights--especially in times of crisis.
Anyway, I think people have been charged with neglect for being Amish and not sending their kids to school or for refusing to let their children have medical treatment. If the courts are making tough calls on where parents' religious rights end and their child's right to live begins, well I can't imagine a better place to decide those issues. That's what courts are for.
Maybe the government's ready to throw Catholics in jail for not complying with this rule, or to take various licenses away from their healthcare institutions. But I suspect it would have played out in the courts long before it ever came to that. ...it would have played out if Obama hadn't backed down, which is apparently what he's done now.
So, that's a different process. Sometimes it's not about whether someone should or shouldn't go to jail; sometimes it's about whether the government should or shouldn't be allowed to violate someone's rights. And how do you make calls about someone's rights in regards to religion without taking their religious convictions into account?
Plus a million
"There's no Free Exercise Clause problem with requiring employers to provide health insurance to their workers over their religious objections"
There is 10th Amendment problem with requiring employers to provide health insurance - or anything else - at all.
Yeah, but that's not the discussion we're having. The debate over general libertarian principles is down the hall, third door on the left.
I can't say this enough: this is deliberate. The Administration wants us talking about this, instead of federal spending, F&F, Solyndra, the wars, the economy...
I don't know what their motives are, but I have to say that by picking this fight, the administration has obscured an astonishing step: the requirement that contraceptives be given free of charge, with no co-pays at all.
Since that is so, why should the employer's views on the morality of health insurance coverage trump that of their employees?
Wrong question.
Why should the government's views on health insurance coverage trump the free exercise rights of religious people?
Why should the government prohibit the free exercise of people's religious beliefs?
Fuck you. That's why.
I appreciate that's the argument a lot of them are making...if religion isn't important to me--then it shouldn't be important to anyone else either.
But I don't think FU is the point Bailey's trying to make.
You asked "Why should the government...?"
The answer is "Because nobody will stop them since they are the ones who stop people."
But why do you hate black jewish women?
They shouldn't be compelled by the government to violate their religious beliefs either.
Was sarcasm.
I know.
The blood transfusion example is a non-sequiter. Blood transfusions are emergency/lifesaving medicine whereas contraceptives are optional, and actually prevent a woman's body from functioning properly.
Kat: Blood transfusions are also done in a lot of scheduled surgeries.
I've seen these advertised on the Metro recently.
Blood transfusions are also done in a lot of scheduled surgeries.
A lot of scheduled surgeries are life-saving. Your point?
RBM: Of course, the chief reason that "employers" purchase health insurance for their employees is because it is a form of untaxed income to employees. Get rid of that tax advantage (perhaps as a deduction to individuals) and let people buy their own insurance. My free market principles are just fine thank you.
Ron I think you're trying to fit a square peg through a round hole with your point.
I agree that getting the employer and the government out of the health insurance market will bring down costs and raise access for all. But making the argument that employers only purchase health care for employees because it is a tax free form of compensation isn't a good critique of the problem.
Employers offer health insurance along with other benefits in order to attract and retain better employees. They aren't saving any money by subsidizing health insurance for their employees. It's a cost of doing business if you want quality employees.
Most Restaurants for instance don't normally offer health insurance to the servers because they don't have to in order to get decent employees.
There is a better way to make this argument.
Employers offer health insurance along with other benefits in order to attract and retain better employees. They aren't saving any money by subsidizing health insurance for their employees.
Sure they are.
Most employees want health insurance. They can get it two ways: from their employer, or by buying it from the insurance company directly. If an employer doesn't offer insurance, it has to pay its employees enough to pay for insurance with post-tax dollars. However, if the employer offers insurance, it pays for it with pre-tax dollars. The result is that the employee gets more post-insurance-purchase take-home pay for the same cost to the employer.
They aren't even doing it for that (to attract better employees) anymore. Nowadays, everyone just thinks it is their right to get insurance through their job. There would be much knashing of teeth if you tried to decouple it.
Yes, yes, of course that's all true and I 100% agree with that.
But until we do that, I'm still against mandates and in favor of choice within the system.
Mr. Bailey, you should have just said that, instead of citing this approvingly:
By this definition, nothing is outside of the purview of government control. What the figgidy fuck does "operat(ing) an institution in the 'public area'" even mean, and how is that relevant?
Also, the plain fact that the employer can pay his employees in donuts if he wants to means that your assertion that "it's the employees money" is just silly.
We're way too far down the road for the removal of the tax-advantage to make a significant impact on whether people get insurance through an employer or not. It would have to be coupled with vouchers in order to drive an individual market for insurance.
SN: Correct.
Yes, indeed, it would take a long time.
So, since you admit it would take a lot of effort to change the system, in the short run do you oppose mandates?
I'm sorry for being a jerk about it, but that's why I had the comment about "implied collectivism" above. I've read through everything, and I don't see you taking a stand on the mandate.
IMO it's not an equal situation here on both sides. Mandates are bad and reduce choice.
In the absence of mandates, employers, including Catholic institutions, can and do offer multiple plans.
One problem with this article (though I agree with its basic thrust) is that the compensation (health insurance) only belongs to the employees at the behest of the employer. And just as employers are free to decide how much it wants to pay workers, it should also be free to decide how much they want to "pay" workers in the form of health insurance. That means the employer gets to decide whatever level of health insurance it deems appropriate to offer its workers (provided it can find a health insurance company to furnish that exact product), even though that "compensation" will eventually become the employees' property.
Ecch. Sorry about the primrose path, but I'm pretty sure it makes sense.
Ironically, most American Catholics, whose overlords in Rome forbid contraception, use it anyway. For them, there is no moral conundrum. As Mr. Bailey pointed out, it's a purely political, man-made controversy, fought between warring factions, each of which desires to control its constituents' bodies and purses.
Regardless of whether a lot of Catholics use birth control anyway, those that find it objectionable still have free exercise rights anyway.
If we only protected the religious rights of those who conformed to their own religious doctrines perfectly, then the only person in the world with the right of free exercise died on a cross 3,000 years ago.
Make that 2,000 years ago.
...although I hear Zoroaster was a heck of a guy, too!
Bullshit, I saw Jesus yesterday at Home Depot.
You did?! But I saw him making my General Tso's yesterday!
Weird.
I saw him in my General Tso's yesterday.
ebay that chicken & transublimate jesus into cash
Maybe it was Elvis? You know they kinda look the same.
those that find it objectionable still have free exercise rights
You're confusing freedom of speech with "freedom" to force another person to do your bidding.
You're confusing freedom of speech with "freedom" to force another person to do your bidding.
In no way shape or form.
Regardless of whether you're talking about forcing Catholics to pay offerings to an institution that's now violating their objections, or whether you're talking about forcing the people in the church itself to violate their own doctrine...
...or whether you're talking about compelling people in the church to close some of its religious operations down (like healing the sick) because it can't operate without violating its own doctrine?
You're talking about using the government to coerce people to do something that violates their religious convictions.
I think people make this mistake with corporations, too. They think that when you talk about a corporation, you're talking about something abstract and inhuman. But that's bogus. When you're talking about a corporation, you're talking about the very real people who work for that corporation. You're talking about the entirely human stockholders. You're talking about real, live, human managers...
The Church isn't just a doctrine either. There are very real people who staff those churches; very real humans who come to church every week and make donations; very real human beings who work for those institutions--and they all have rights.
Forcing someone to do your bidding? What about employees who don't want to pay for conception coverage? They don't get a choice, because the majority outvotes them?
One side in this is anti freedom and anti choice.
Similarly, most American Jews don't keep kosher. Would there be no moral conundrum or outrage if a law forced all delis to put bacon (or offer bacon) on all sandwiches?
It all boils down to that most fundamental of property rights: the right to one's life, the right to one's own body and the products of one's mind, including his cash. In this particular case, one faction presumes to force another into providing a product or service to a third party. Left unsaid is whether a government has the right to dictate private, personal health choices. The factions take it for granted and argue over the details.
Well said.
Hmm, I agree with that. But that's inconsistent with your previous comment. The two factions are *not* equal here. If the Catholics were trying to ban plans from covering contraception, they would be.
As I said, some Catholic institutions, like DePaul, *do* offer plans that cover contraception, they just charge a rider for them and they also offer plans that don't. Why not accept that compromise?
Some liberals elsewhere on the Internet apparently think that it supports this policy to point out that some Catholic institutions offer voluntary riders or other optional plans for contraceptive coverage. Me, I see it as a reason we don't need to make it mandatory.
Choice.
Neither faction is innocent. One relies on mysticism (religion), the other on force (the state). Each presumes to know what is right and just. There is a third party, the employee, who is not necessarily guiltless; who may or may not believe that his employer owes him health coverage; who may or may not believe that the state has a legitimate say in the private contracts between employer and employee. What muddies the waters is state-financed or "public" institutions. Then every taxpayer believes he has a right to force (or forbid) contraception products and services onto his "employees" (public servants).
The point Mr. Bailey is making is that the whole "controversy" disappears when private citizens are free to engage in voluntary contracts, absent any use of coercion: mental (religion) or physical (the state). We can't do much about the mental issues religionists wrestle with, and as long as they do not resort to actual physical force, we needn't be overly concerned, but we can and should banish government from our private lives, as the Founders intended.
Yes, I agree, the whole controversy disappears when that happens. But that's not an answer about what to do in the short run. In the short run, one of these alternatives leads to more choice and liberty.
The Catholic Church doesn't hold a fucking gun to your head and the government does. They are in no way, shape, or form the same damn thing.
I can imagine a situation in which the Sunday blue laws in certain places in the South were overturned, and shop keepers were forced by law to sell alcohol on Sundays.
Of course, that would be just as bad as Sunday blue laws--just in the opposite way. Using the government to force religious people to break the Sabbath is no better than using the government to prohibit people from breaking the Sabbath.
You bring the question of whether religious people feel free to make charitable donations now, too. The Pilgrims came to Massachusetts, in part, because they felt they were sinning since some of the money they paid in taxes went to support the Anglican church--which was doing things that contradicted their religious beliefs. We haven't always been great about that in practice, but he principle itself is obviously much older than the Constitution.
Yet another reason why ObamaCare was such a bad idea. Obama should be ashamed of himself. He won't be, but he should be.
Its a free will thing. Someone who chooses to do X, can object to being required to do X. Even Catholics.
One quibble...just because it is part of the compensation package does NOT make it the employee's money. The employer could just as easily keep the money and not provide insurance coverage at all. Or at least the employer could when we had a government that believed in economic freedom. True, the employer may have to pay higher wages to be competitive in attracting workers from companies that offered health benefits, but that is true even when employers choose to provide insurance that does not include contraception or any number of other medical or health services. Because it is the employer's money to spend how it sees fit in attracting employees, it is perfectly reasonable for the employer to make that choice based on the employer's preferences.
OMG! I HAVE A FUCKING BRILLIANT IDEA!!! ONE THAT WITH USHER IN A NEW AGE OF PEACE AND UNIVERSAL HAPPINESS!!
LETS MAKE HEALTH INSURANCE COVER FOOD!!!! EATING IS A REQUIREMENT TO STAY HEALTHY !!!!
FUCKING BRILLIANT!!! OBAMA DOESN'T KNOW IT, BUT THE NEW AGE OF PERFECT COMMUNISM HAS ARRIVED! HEALTH INSURANCE MUST COVER FOOD ! ALL THE PRESIDENT HAS TO DO IS ISSUE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER TO MAKE IT SO!!!!
Needs more [BRACKETS].
health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees.
Would a company gym belong to the employees also?
According to Bailey, if an employer offers a company gym, apparently that gym MUST include treadmills, free weights, trainers, massage therapists, accupuncture, etc. if any employee wants it. After all, it's the employees' money!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html
Re: Maxipad,
Amendment 1 US Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;[...]
Keep making an ass of yourself, Maxipad. By the way, your mom says "Hi!"
Of course, all of this is an 11-dimensional Obama chess move. The President wants the conversation to center around social issues so he can clobber the GOP with them.
"It's anything but the economy, stupid."
I have a shortcut to that, get Santorum chosen as the Republican candidate.
Although, that may take just as many moves.
Guys, I've found THE solution.
I'm willing for my tax dollars to be spent on making every one of these women that want free contraceptive barren for life. I'll gladly take the upfront costs to breed the fucking stupid out of our society.
I'm afraid you will get Idiocracy instead of Enlightenment
It's scary; ever since seeing that movie, it's the only future I can see for this country. Intelligent people make intelligent choices regarding children; where the morons act without regard to the consequence of their actions. With the full support of the Federal Government. Because, you know, TEH CHILDRENZ!
I am afraid we are getting the idiocracy without your program.
Remember, if the government doesn't buy it for you, you are denied it.
Idiocracy is fucking retarded. Please don't put any stock into whatsoever.
While you're doing your eugenics, could you also the breed the stupid out of their beer choices? I am offended by inexpensive beer. Thanks.
As far as cheap beer goes, I've actually taken a liking to Budweiser's American Lager. I can even drink Budweiser.
Otherwise, it's Stoudts Pils for me.
whoosh
Oh, I got it, I was just trying to start a beer snob discussion.
I've found THE solution
The "final" solution? Nice.
Also, please notice Obama's clever use of the "overton windonw" principle on the contraceptive mandate.
"One more issue: health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees."
That's kind of dumb. Health insurance is of course a form of compensation, but since is in-kind and not cash, the employer necessarily has to make choices about what is/is not included in that in-kind compensation. What's the deductible? Do I include anti-smoking programs? Do employees need referrals for specialists? The list of choices is endless. I'm assuming that you wouldn't take the position that an employer can't set the deductibles or decide to not to cover anti-smoking programs, right?
Re: Ron Bailey,
Bullshit, Ron. I can be given a car as a "compensation" but I don't get to choose that my ride is pimped if that is not in the previously-agreed and signed contract.
What the mandate represents is a direct violation of the sanctity of CONTRACTS. The Catholic organizations deciced not to offer healthcare insurance that included birth control or abortions, and the employees tacitly agreed by signing the employment contract. What the government is doing is imposing itself into this agreement with an ex post facto mandate.
Bailey is getting the beating he richly deserves for this post. The whole thing is bullshit.
I'm actually very surprised.
Usually when Bailey whacks the ignorant theists the comments section is a round of applause.
Well, his equal-sided condemnation didn't much work, because one side is demonstrably more evil than the other.
Right, if this were, say, mandating teaching Creationism in schools, or other curriculum choices, you bet your ass the atheists would be lining up on the side against Intelligent Design. Even the case of deciding what the NSF will fund and whether embryonic stem cells are involved can have libertarians on both sides.
But I don't see this one as a even call.
not just atheists john, but the courts, constitution, stare decisis, & everyone who's never visited the creation museum to study conservative sciences
There have been a few atheists who have pleasantly surprised me. Fluffy for one sees this for what it is. Him and a few others on here. I am deeply disappointed but unsurprised at Baily's response.
OM: You might well allow your employer to buy and transfer title to a car (pimped or not) of his choice if the purchase were tax advantaged the way health insurance is.
My point is that the system of third parties buying insurance for other people should go away - that way nobody has to agree to the specific provisions that are contained in whatever insurance contract employer is offering.
You don't have to agree Ron. You can always not take the job. You are just objecting to bundled contracts. So what? If I buy my own insurance, I can only take the bundles the company sells.
Would anyone in the media be sympathetic if the entire leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses said they would not budge an inch in including coverage of blood transfusions at their printing company no matter what government, doctors or even their own employees believe that ought to have covered?
That's an indictment of the media and their inability to understand voluntary contracts, then.
I would probably invest in some health insurance with the extra money I'm probably being paid (extra compared to a similar job at an institution that gives me a much more comprehensive/expensive health insurance). And in a world where health insurance companies are decoupled from the government, there might be some buffet-style insurance plans that would help to supplement a non-comprehensive work health plan.
^^This^^ The arguement is terrible. It is just an appeal to authority. Why shouldn't the Jehovahs be able to offer insurance that doesn't cover blood transfusions. It is not as if their employees can't work somewhere else or buy insurance on their own.
Bailey just doesn't consider religious freedom to really be much of a right.
Well, I don't really agree that it should be a special religious freedom so much as the freedom of anyone, religious or not, to avoid mandates.
I concede that many people oppose it only because religion, and specifically a religion that they like, is involved.
But if I took that attitude, I'd have to oppose school vouchers simply because many people support them only because they want their own religious schools.
Other people supporting something for the wrong reason doesn't vitiate my reason.
I agree John. Why should some woman past child bearing age have to pay extra for insurance to cover contraceptives? It is bullshit.
But I am not sure that the government can't fuck people and order contracts. They do it all of the time. But what they most certainly cannot do is mandate people act against their religion.
Wait a second. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I clearly see this line at the end of the article:
Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away.
Are you people so wrapped up in your religious bullshit that you are arguing this point? Giving employees the freedom to buy their own tailored insurance plans doesn't take religious freedom into consideration?
But Bailey thinks as long as we do have the government involved, it is perfectly okay for the government stomp on religion.
Apparently this is where I fail the libertarian purity test. I've ready Ron's words four times now and I can't see where he's saying the government has the right to tell you what to do. The only argument I see him putting forth, several times, is that the employees should have the right to determine what their coverage should or shouldn't include. Since I'm obviously missing it, can you please point out exactly which statement says he's OK with the government stomping on religion?
John: I am puzzled. Where did I say that?
Mr. Bailey, one does have to wonder what point you were trying to make by linking/quoting Art Caplan, because he's trying to argue that contraception = blood transfusion = mandates. If you weren't arguing that, linking to him makes no sense in the context of the post.
What RBM said Ron.
No one's disagreeing that that's a good end goal, but the point is that mandates should be avoided in the short term. Ron refused to take a stand on that, settling for blaming both sides.
Yes, getting employers out is good. But just because, say, I want universal education vouchers, that doesn't mean that I'd blame equally both sides if one was fighting for a mandate to teach Creationism in all schools and the other was opposed. If I were opposed to a war entirely, that doesn't mean that I'd have no opinion on whether or not to have a draft.
I agree on his eventual end, but I don't think that there's equal blame here.
So since he refused to take a stand on the mandate then he's a shill for big government? The fact that he put forth his point but didn't take a side means he shouldn't have said anything about the issue?
No, certainly not. I'm just curious as to his view. That's why my original comment was that I was disappointed in his implied collectivism. His comment and his linking to the bioethicist made it seem like he thinks that this mandate is no big deal or even a good idea.
But I can't tell for sure. Is it really unreasonable for me to ask him to clarify? Particularly when I don't think that the two sides are equal here?
You can't get around the fact that religion is singled out for "special" treatment in the First Amendment. Religious establishments (whatever they are) are banned, and the free exercise of religion (whatever it is) is protected.
Even if there's no discriminatory purpose vs. religion, Congress gives a general religious exemption which can only be overruled if the govt has a compelling interest and no other way to vindicate that interest other than overriding religious conscience.
And that's your blood transfusion case right there. If the govt has a compelling interest in catastrophic insurance, then anything which requires a blood transfusion is catastrophic, and the health-reformers will argue there's no way to get someone a transfusion other than overriding any religious objections of his employer. Even that won't satisfy libertarians, but at least it's an argument based on the need for catastrophic coverage.
So I can see the argument if someone's in a car wreck and losing blood by the second - he needs more blood or he'll die.
Contrast this with contraceptives. Is there really no difference between "I need a blood transfusion or I'll die" and "I need safe sex or I'll die"? Where's the compelling interest and the least restrictive means?
Of course, the reality is that a hospital will give blood transfusions regardless of whether insurance covers it, rather than just letting the patient die. So there really aren't any plausible examples of someone's life being put in danger because of their employer's religious choices influencing their insurance provision.
I don't think that the first amendment singles out religion for special treatment at all. It says that religion specifically should not be singled out for special treatment. The establishment clause obviously says that. The free exercise clause, I can see why people might disagree with me there, but to me "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means that a law against practicing a religion, or religion in general would be forbidden, but that laws made which apply generally and not specifically to religion, can limit the practice of religion. This is clearly the case when you consider drug laws (or to be more extreme and ridiculous, human sacrifice). The first amendment doesn't give a free pass to break laws you don't like.
Congress doesn't agree. They let people practice their religion unless there's a compelling interest which can't be satisfied except by stopping the religious practice in question. So human sacrifice is banned.
Smoking dope during a Rastafarian ceremony, not so much. Not being able to tell the difference between sacramental pot and human sacrifice shows a lack of nuance.
And limiting health insurance to catastrophic care plus such procedures as the employer's conscience allows is on the freedom side of the line, not the human-sacrifice side.
The free exercise clause, I can see why people might disagree with me there, but to me "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means that a law against practicing a religion, or religion in general would be forbidden, but that laws made which apply generally and not specifically to religion, can limit the practice of religion.
The measure you use for the free exercise of religion is also the measure that must be used for the freedom of speech.
So if you're OK with laws that apply generally and not specifically against speech.
I agree that the religious angle would evaporate, but the Song about Mandates Would Remain the Same. That's the part I object to.
As it stands, I don't much care if the Catholics are getting their oxen gored here - they have to follow the rules like everybody else. But I'm opposed to all mandates regardless.
Bailey just doesn't consider religious freedom to really be much of a right.
The only time he's concerned about religious freedom is when someone else is "imposing their religion" on him by not funding embryonic stem cell funding or one of his other biotech pet projects.
Actually, we don't know what Ron thinks here. As far as I can tell, it seems like he's saying he'd just flip a coin (or vote "Present" or Abstain) if forced to make a choice on this mandate.
I don't see it as an equal case. I don't particularly see it as a First Amendment case, but I certainly think that it decreases choice and liberty.
It seems pretty clear to me that he's saying that it's stupid that a mandate even needs to be considered. The government doesn't belong here.
It is stupid that a mandate needs to be considered. But, as Ron has agreed, in the short and medium run employer health insurance isn't going away. So I would like to know what his position is.
I'd flip a coin. After all, why should the Church be more than equal before the law?
I understand the view of "there shouldn't be a mandate, but I don't want a special religious exemption." I also understand the alternate view of "I don't like special religious exemptions, but the fewer people affected by the mandate that really care about it the better."
There are lots of interesting views to debate. I wonder which one Ron has.
I don't know if they are "interesting" or no, but, naturally, the libertarian viewpoint is pretty routinely ignored. AFAIAC, if you are an employer in this country, you have to follow the same employment laws as everybody else; it doesn't matter to me if your employer does work to convince others to believe in JEEEESUS or in Tide Laundry Detergent.
See, I understand that. But as a matter of practical policy, I think that reducing the onerous nature of mandates is also a good thing. So I'm torn.
My touchstone for this is "letting white people off for crack possession". If you had a policy that said white people couldn't be busted for crack, that would reduce the number of people who are subjected to the onerous nature of the illegitimate War on Drugs. But I wouldn't make that a policy, because objective laws, as a process, are more freedom-enabling, even when they are onerous, than ones where the Rule of Man is a distinct possibility. With "exemptions", you get Churches with special privileges under the law (bad) and King Obama determining who gets an exemption (also bad).
There's no constitutional amendment saying "Congress shall make no law abridging the free exercise of whiteness." There's an amendment protecting the free exercise of religion.
Whatever you say. I guess that means the Founding Fathers contemplated being able to engage in human sacrifice? And no, your "distinction" on "compelling state interest" grounds is not convincing. The Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses are statements of neutrality, SCOTUS's misreading of those clauses notwithstanding.
Exercise of religion that coercively harms other people is no different from speech that coercively harms other people, such as perjury and threats. Neither is protected by the first amendment.
"My faith says that I don't have to pay my employees minimum wage!"
All you're doing is opening the door for Congress to codify what are "bona-fide faiths" That is a BAD THING>
The rule you advocate, while it can hurt majority faiths (like the recent HHS rule) has a disproportionate impact on small and uninfluential religions.
The Christian Scientists, for instance, have traditionally been able to get special treatment under all sorts of laws - even child-abuse laws - they have had a surprising amount of influence, including two of them own (Haldeman and Ehrlichman) on Nixon's staff while Congress was writing these kinds of laws.
The Amish, in contrast, had to go through getting their property seized for nonpayment of payroll taxes before Congress, embarrassed at this spectacle, exempted them from Social Security (they don't believe in insurance, and SS was being sold as insurance).
Rastafarians get slammed because they don't have a powerful enough lobby to get themselves an exemption from the drug laws. Religious which use alcohol sacramentally don't have this problem - because they're more numerous (they even got an exemption during Prohibition).
Do you see where your "like everyone else" rule ends up? Religions are not forced to be treated like everyone else - only small and vulnerable ones.
The only reason they're able to go after the Catholics on this one is that they figure the Catholic leadership is politically vulnerable on contraception.
But mostly it's the small groups which get hit by your rule.
Would you abolish the medical-marijuana exemption from drug laws? They are excused from the rules applicable to "everyone else," not just for cancer patients, but also for those who can persuade a doctor that their jones for dope is some kind of medical condition. Why should a sophisticated person who can game the medical system get better treatment than someone who openly and honestly wants to get high?
Yet Reason and many commenters want to fight for medical MJ exemptions as a step in the right direction.
There should not be a mandated minimum wage either.
The religious freedom issue is just the biggest most obvious elephant in the room about the mandate. The government has no business imposing its will on employers or insurers and these types of mandates have been one of the biggest drivers of out of controls insurance costs.
I'd flip a coin. After all, why should the Church be more than equal before the law?
It's not the church that's more equal, it's the exercise of religion, be it by churchmen or laypersons. Two separate things.
Like it or not, religion is viewed as a fundamental human activity.
*shrug*, oh well. I don't believe that the Fathers contemplated that the Church would be above the law when it comes to action, and I don't have a problem equally enforcing the law.
And it doesn't matter if they're "two separate things". You can't just make shit up that magically gives a safe harbor from complying with the law.
I'm not making it up. It's in the first amendment.
You don't like it, get an amendment passed that repeals it.
That is blatantly ignorant Rev.
The only time he's concerned about religious freedom is when someone else is "imposing their religion" on him by not funding embryonic stem cell funding or one of his other biotech pet projects.
I'm used to you lying habitually to score argument points, but this is sleazy even by your low standards.
This is bullshit. Health insurance is compensation agreed to by the employer and employee; it doesn't "belong" exclusively to either party.
If employees have a unilateral right to change the form of that compensation, couldn't they just demand cash instead of any kind of insurance?
Tulpa: If employees have a unilateral right to change the form of that compensation, couldn't they just demand cash instead of any kind of insurance? Yes. That's kind of my point.
But the employer's view of morality trumps the employee because the employer sets the terms of employment.
Even without tax-advantages, employers still might offer medical coverage, and then their "morality" would "trump" there too.
I am realizing now that you are not disagreeing with Standard Libertarianism, but the combination of "employees should choose how they are compensation" + "linking to Art Caplan" + going all "pox on both houses" gave rise to a presumption that you were being heterodox on this issue.
There's no "trumping" going on. An employment agreement is a contract. Both sides are free to negotiate and, if they can't reach a deal, walk away.
Yes indeed. But if all plans are required to include contraception, then some employees will be forced to subsidize other employees. What you're saying here is that this isn't really about the employer so much as a transfer of wages from some employees to others.
Which is why the mandate should be opposed.
Yes. That's kind of my point.
That's the danger of a reductio ad absurdum.... your opponent being OK with the absurd.
You'd support requiring companies to give their employees the option of taking the cash equivalent of their non-monetary employment benefits?
If Reason Foundation employes a few Occupiers, is there really no difference between Reason paying them a salary which they might use to buy Noam Chomsky books, and the govt forcing Reason to give every employee a set of Chomsky's complete works (in hardcover)?
Are you saying no conscience issue would be involved in the latter case?
Or a free Gideon's Bible, for that matter?
Or a Che T-shirt?
Or forcing Reason to give such things only to employees who demand them ("no-one is forced to buy Chomsky books!")
Why should anyone other than the end user pay for contraception when there is a 100% effective, free method readily available?
You mean sexual abstinence? You must be a Klanman or something. Only an extremist would bring up abstinence in a discussion of contraception.
Anyway, how could anyone object to the government providing free pills and condoms, or forcing evil insurance companies to do it?
Aren't you compassionate?
What's nice about the blunder on this, is that it allows us to hang a discussion about how wrong mandates are for everybody off of the First Amendment.
Easy enough to move from "Well, the government shouldn't force Catholics to buy insurance they don't want" to "I guess that means maybe the government shouldn't force anyone to buy insurance they don't want."
The question is, are the people smart enough to make that leap? It's pretty easy to get religious people to go full retard on an issue, the hard part is getting people who don't share those beliefs to see how they could still be affected.
Apparently, it is hard to get Gillespie and Bailey past their distaste for religion to recognize that Obama's decree intolerably interferes with with relationship between insurer's and their customers.
I've also used to try to get liberals to be in favor of HSAs, since at some point they pull out the "it should be a decision between you and your doctor only" point.
I see nothing retarded about defending the First Amendment. And the counsel for the Catholic bishops said he's against the mandate altogether. He doesn't simply say, "give us an exemption and we'll be OK with it," he says he should be able, if he runs a Taco Bell, to decide for himself about covering contraception for his employees.
Well, the Church is smart enough (I hope) to realize that an exemption for the Church itself and its hospitals, schools, etc., only solves part of the problem. The Church should recognize that a devout Catholic businessman is being compelled to act against his conscience if he is forced to provide jimmy hats to his employees.
He gave the Taco Bell example, so he at least recognizes this.
"Get employers out of the business of buying health insurance and the whole stupid issue goes away."
Better suggestion; Get the governmeent out of micro-msnaging healthcare
Even better suggestion; both of those.
"One more issue: health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees."
Quite an assumption. If the employer did not pay for Health Insurance, he would give that money to the employee. It ain't necessarily so.
Its the employer's money until its in the employee's pocket.
So, no, money spent on health insurance is never the employee's money. It starts as the employer's money, becomes the insurance company's money, and then some of it becomes the doctor's money.
In the case of many large employers (and that may include many of these catholic institutions), it never becomes the insurance company's money because the employer pays claims directly, with the insurance company just administering the claims process.
I did see a Bishop on tv who said that if this stays they will either have to shut down there business or just stop offering insurance.
At the risk of sounding repetitive: they should force the government to shut down their businesses. It's pretty fucking hard to look like the good guy when you're forcing hospitals and soup kitchens and shit to close, no matter how much interference the media runs for you.
One more issue: health insurance is just a form of compensation offered by an employer. It's not the employer's money; it belongs to the employees.
It isn't either one's money, because it isn't money, it's an insurance plan. And whatever should be employee's entitlement is what they negotiated in their contract, not what the state decided to unilaterally impose afterward. If they signed a contract with the Jewish-owned farm they work for that included a free chicken every week, and then demanded the government change that to a free pig every month, then they're in the wrong. They'd be as wrong if it were a non-religious farm, but the extra offense against conscience only serves to underline the point.
As a woman, who has never had birth control covered by any insurance, I say get over it. If your employer doesn't want to offer you insurance that covers birth control (which to be honest, 99% DON'T) they don't have to nor should they have to. Personally, I don't want to pay for ANY of ya'lls crap. I don't want to pay for anyone elses baby, their dog, their husband, their viagra, or their birth control. Health insurance has been a benefit given to employees by employers, but the authors notion that insurance "belongs" to the employee is bogus. It only belongs to the employee IF it is offered as a benefit by the employer; and it is up to the employer exactly what benefits it wants to offer.
obama is already backpedaling/kludging
he is now moving the mandatory coverage from the employer to the insurance co.
it's a technicality, but it means that he can keep the "mandate" without requiring that employers take a part in paying for it.
Except they will be paying for it in premium increases.
yup. that's why it's a kludge.
I think Reason should offer a free condom product: A Nick Gillespie model called "The Jacket."
Come on!
The essence of religious liberty demands that we SHOULD get outraged if this happened to Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ronald Bailey's argument seems to boil down to: JWs are weird and annoying so nobody would care if they were harassed.
But such is a circumstance for which the concept of religious rights most applies: when people think a certain religion is weird and annoying.
It is sorry sanctimony when no one cares about unconstitutional reach into private economic and health matters, until the Catholic Church's feelings are hurt. But, I think most people crying foul now did care about this beforehand. They're making use of a particularly good example of what's wrong with this level of government involvement in healthcare to argue against it.
The compensation an employer offers - including benefits - is part of the employment package that they employee agrees to when hired.
I get it. The real argument is about the principle in general, not the religious aspect.
But what I think this article misses is the transition the Obamacare legislation represents.
Historically, government intervention in the economy has been justified by a populist appeal to restrain the abuses of profit-motivated privately rich citizens. A Church is just trying to be a church, in this case, and so the traditional populist measures shouldn't apply to them.
But Obama is going full socialist. And that's frankly a new direction for Democratic Party America. Well, not really, but they pretended otherwise for a long time.
You seem to be misinformed. Jehovah's Witnesses do not employ or pay any non-JW's. You could simply call the Brooklyn office to verify that fact, if that is what you really want.
The Supposition about the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is interesting but not plausible. Jehovah's Witnesses consider it a great honor to be accepted to work at "Bethel," the printing establishment of the Watchtower Society. The "Bethelites" are all dedicated JWs and work for room and board and a small stipend for toiletries, etc. The Watchtower's extensive number of people who work for them for nothing is explained more fully in my book, "Rescuing Slaves of the Watchtower."
Is this spam? Way to plug your crappy hate dribble....Hitler: "Jews are great, learn more about them in my book, "Slaves to the Great Rat Master""...
How many "Slaves" has your hate actually "Rescued"? And are they all writing hate books now too? You're really a brave profiteer.
Thanks