Talking Toxic Sugar at KUOW in Seattle Yesterday
Yesterday, I participated in The Conservation run by host Ross Reynolds at the Seattle public radio station KUOW. The topic centered on regulating sugar in much the same way that the government already regulates alcohol and tobacco based on a new article published in Nature, The Toxic Truth About Sugar [sub required]. The program featured Laura Schmidt, a sociologist working at the San Francisco School of Medicine arguing in favor of regulation. She outlined some of her proposals in a CNN op/ed including a "substantial tax on products loaded with sugar," imposing age limits on purchasing high sugar products, and controlling the opening hours of fast food outlets near schools.
I was called in to "balance" the discussion. First, excessive consumption of sugar is bad for you. So don't do it. That's what public health officials should be focusing on rathering than figuring how to jigger taxes and regulations to make our behavior conform to their views on what's best for us. The chief problem is that nearly everything we do or don't do can affect our health. That means from public health bureaucrats' points of view there is no aspect of our lives in which they may not meddle for "our own good."
In any case, during the segment of the program in which I got to speak, I argued against further infantalization of Americans by health nannies who assume that people are too stupid to know what's best for them. I note that Schmidt's editorial says, "We think that the public needs to be better informed about the science of how sugar impacts our health." Yes. That is the proper role for public health bureaucrats. And they have had notable successes. For example, per capita cigarette smoking began to decline from nearly the moment that the Surgeon General declared it a health hazard back in 1964.
During the program, I argued that I surely must be considered a shining example of a public health success. I took to heart all the warnings about tobacco. I used to be a 3-pack per day smoker, but I stopped smoking 27 years ago. And I quit when cigarettes cost under a dollar per pack.
With regard to public health warnings about excessive consumption of sugar and carbohydrates, I again took public health warnings to heart. In the last three years I have lost 45 pounds dropping my body mass index from nearly 30 (borderline obese) to a healthy normal 23 now. (It's only been a couple of years, so let's see if I can keep the weight off.)
I expect that public health information about various disease risks posed by eating too much sugar can and will help my fellow Americans to make the same sorts of risk/reward decisions on their own.
During her segment, Schmidt pointed out that excessive sugar consumption is associated with metabolic syndrome, a kind of pre-diabetes, if you will. She's absolutely right. But so are a lot of other activities (or inactivities). For example, as I pointed out during the program, television viewing is also associated with metabolic syndrome. Is the next proposed public health recommendation going to be regulations on how much TV people may watch per day?
The host Ross Reynolds, asked me about the possibility of adding sugar warning labels to sweets the same way the government requires warning labels on cigarettes. I asked if this meant that he would favor big pictures of morbidly obese people on the front of cookie packages? He responded (jokingly), what about tiny pictures of morbidly obese people? The conversation ended there.
Go here to listen to the KUOW segment, Just How Bad Is Sugar?
For a superb discussion of the totalitarian implications of public health read "An Epidemic of Meddling" by my colleague Jacob Sullum.
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Anyone calling for a war on sugar deserves to have their door kicked in, their family held hostage, their belongings ransacked, their home destroyed, their life ruined.
Don't forget about killing their pets. That's a must-have for today's stormtrooper.
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any time the govt calls for a war on anything, put me down as a conscientious objector. The existing wars, like the ones on poverty and drugs, are going so well.
is a gateway to heroin addiction.
Duh, sugar makes you fat and heroin helps you get skinny again.
What is best in life?
To crush your nannies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their sycophants in the media.
Off-topic: Drudge picks great photos
Romney is Gregor Clegane? It makes sense.
Are you retarded? Romney is clearly Stannis Baratheon.
Newt is Tyrion Lannister
Obama is Khol Drogo (racist?)
Ron Paul is Ser Rodrik
And forgive me if my information is outdated per the series itself. I'm merely half way through the first book, but have certainty that I'll finish the whole magnum opus by the end of March.
I rescind my previous statement. Viserys Targaren is Barack Obama.
No way. Khal Drogo turned out to be a decent guy for a rapist in the book. Obama's more like that old Fey guy.
Fair enough, I can already see that potential in Khal. I should've withheld until at least finishing the first book.
No.
Ron Paul is Eddard Stark.
Mitt Romney is Roose Bolton.
Barack Obama is Joffrey Baratheon.
Newt Gingrich is Mace Tyrell.
Rick Santorum is Bonifer Hasty (minor, holier-than-though character).
If Ron Paul is Eddard, which son would Rand be?
Tough call. I'd have to Jon Snow. He holds to his father's sense of honor, but is pragmatic enough to do what needs to be done to protect the realm. Unlike Robb, he wouldn't let Jeyne Westerling be his downfall.
Guys, he hasn't finished the first book yet. Don't spoil it for him!
Lol, I noticed spoilerish information and diverted my eyes. Jon Snow was my immediate thought from what I have gleaned of the characters so far though.
John Snow.
No, moron. That's Ricky Santorum.
Who's Loras?
What is this, more Dune references or something?
Game of Thrones, keep up!
If it hasn't hit Netflix yet, I probably haven't seen it.
There are alternatives
$30 bucks for the Kindle version?
And, really, I just got done saying I can't even catch up on last television's seasons, and now you want me to read like, 5,000 pages.
$30 bucks for the Kindle version?
It's money well spent for four of the books.
Read a book? When there's an HBO version? Are you nuts?
SRSLY. I don't know how everyone else around me, both here and IRL, watches all of the newest, hottest shows all the time. Where do people find the time?
I make Saturday or Sunday an actual day off. The only person I see on those days is my significant other; sometimes we read, sometimes we watch TV, or sometimes go out. Depends on our moods.
DVR and/or Netflix. and waking up an hour before the kids to catch up on what I can't watch when they're awake.
Thanks to my slave labor force made up of whales, I save thousand of hours a year.
Fuck you, PETA! They'll never be free!
I actually opted to twist my monocle and save money by canceling netflix and DVR. Instead, I force a contingent of child slaves to act out scenes from my favorite movies, shows, and novels.
I recently had them act out the wedding of Khal Drogo and Daenarys Targaryen and it was quite the lavish affair. Although more's the pity considering that several inevitably had to die or be raped for the sake of realism.
Doesn't feeding the child slaves cost more than netflix though? Or pure Ramen diet?
Cost saving measure: force them to cannibalize the dead bodies of their fellow slaves who died in the course of my entertainment. It's a doubly good cost saving strategy because you cut down on both food costs and waste disposal.
Am I the one person who hasn't read these books or, not having the premium cable channels, watched the TV series?
Yes.
What I lack in HBO I make up for in kindle. A highly recommended path. I've heard the show is great and will watch it upon completing the books, but I much prefer to shape the characters in my own mind first.
I tried to reread LOTR trilogy recently and was actually kind of pissed that I couldn't stop envisioning each character as their corresponding actor from the Peter Jackson epic.
Yeah, the Elijah Wood really ruined it for me. I'm glad I read the books a long time ago.
There's a quick fix for that: Rankin / Bass and Ralph Bakshi.
Of course, in some ways the cure there is worse than the disease.
Why doesn't anyone take libertarians seriously?
Sorry, but when I see sugar with some kind of design on it, I flash back to the parking lot at a Grateful Dead concert.
Sorry?
Hahaha. You must be a bit older than I because my first thought was a rave. But the principal remains the same and you clearly stole the LSD joke I has intended to make.
Moon sugar?
I always figured you were nothing but a Khajiit junkie, ProL.
Moon sugar is for rookies.
Skooma will take you places. Fun places. Maybe even places you don't want to go.
I was busting up some Skooma ring just last night. The Jarl needed something done, and the pay was good.
Ever since creating my Daedric Bow as the functional equivalent of a nuclear weapon (one shot killing dragons, mammoths, or anything else) using the fortify alchemy/restoration/smithing glitch, I've almost entirely lost motivation to continue on skyrim. I suppose I could just equip a regular weapon, but damn it's nice to be able to one shot anything.
Tell me more about this glitch...
Real winners don't use glitches.
They do, however, drink copious amounts of mead and skooma.
It's not cheating, it's being a genius (or copying the genius of others who blazed that trail before you.). Enchant four items of Fortify Alchemy with Grand Soul Gems to get the best level of enchantment. Then, create a fortofy restoration potion (which also fortifies the power of your enchantment). Drink it, and then create another (which will be even stronger because the potion you just drank fortifies the fortify alchemy enchantments on your gloves, ring, necklance, and helm). Repeat this about five times until your fortify restoration potion is something like "fortify resortation 500,000%" Then create a couple of fortify smithing potions and a couple of fortify enchantment potions, which will each be around equally insane strength. Finally, create a deadric bow, drink the insane fortify smithing potion, and then improve the bow at the grindstone. voila!
Note, you need an alchemy skill around 60 for this to be effective.
Ever since creating my Daedric Bow as the functional equivalent of a nuclear weapon
I've got what I thought was a maxed out Daedric Bow (smithed way the hell up while wearing my Enchanted Ring, Necklace, and Gauntlets o' Bitchin' Smithin', plus a shot or two of Blacksmith's Philter, and of course double enchanted with max fire and frost damage), but I don't get one shot kills on some people or any dragons.
I haven't cranked my archery damage, though.
"Is the next proposed public health recommendation going to be regulations on how much TV people may watch per day?"
The answer is so obvious it need not be asked. Just sit back and wait 3-5 years.
The answer may surprise you: in a bid to reassert control of a populace wandering off the plantation, future government regs require at least 3 hours of nightly education in front of the telescreen, followed by an hour of monitored exercise.
Lack of exercise affects interstate commerce, hence your nightly calesthenics, prole.
This reminds me, it's about time to make another banana-toffee pie.
That sounds effin' good.
It's amazing. My wife found the recipe. You boil a closed can of sweetened condensed milk for 3 hours until it turns into toffee (a process, by the way, whose existence serves as proof that there is a god) let it cool, slice up a few bananas and put it all into a graham cracker pie crust and top with whip cream. It's sugar on top of sugar covered with sugar.
I used to do that in Brazil...they call it "doce de leite" and it's heavenly.
BTW, Brazilians gulp down sugar like nobody's business, and the results are: Adrianna Lima and Gisele Bundchen.
I rest my case.
That's because they use cane sugar and not HFCS!!!
That's true, and it even smells like brown sugar.
I note that few of these sugar prohibitionists mention that earlier public-health faggotdwarfs helped cause the increase in sugar consumption with decades of anti-fat propaganda dipshittery. No, it's straight to bans and warning labels for them.
They should just come right out and say it... they want to ban anything that tastes good or makes you feel good. You can't be trusted to make decisions about your own health or wellbeing.
I don't think they are even that coherent. They don't need to hide their motives, because their motives are whatever they happen to be emotionally reacting to at the moment.
Gotta love the government budybodies, right?
They claim, "Fat's bad for you."
Then "Sugar's bad for you."
Oops! "Starch is bad for you."
Hey kidneys: "Protein's bad for you."
Blood pressure! "Salt's bad for you."
Sawdust and water, all 'round!
What sense does it make for the govt to subsidize corn growers (most of it goes to make HFCS which is basically the same as sugar in its composition and effects) and then try to tightly regulate sugar consumption? It's like carrying on the war on smokers, while subsidizing tobacco.
I just don't understand. Why cant they just leave everyone the fuck alone and quit subsidizing, tariffing, regulating, etc etc?
Which they also do...
Because if they left everyone, they'd be giving up their power.
Because that reduces the opportunities for graft and campaign contributions.
Yeah, the low fat diet obsession (which still exists somehow) was probably the worst thing for healthy eating ever. All of those low fat products pretty much substitute sugar for fat (or are just all carbs to begin with).
The amazing thing is that there is no evidence that eating less fat, saturated or otherwise, does anything positive for you. It was just an idea that Ancel Keys and others had in the 60s and 70s and the McGovern commission took it and ran with it.
Gary Taubes has written at length about the MR FIT study, the Harvard Nurses study, and the Cochrane Collaboration meta analysis, none of which showed any benefit to reducing one's fat intake.
My guess as to why this has stuck for so long is that the idea that eating fat makes you fat seems intuitively obvious to a lot of people, so they just accept it based on that ridiculous and simplistic reasoning. I'm amazed that after the recent low carb diet crazes and such that so many people assume that eating fat is what makes you get fat.
What, they think when they put something in their mouths, it just drops to the bottom?
It sure seems that way sometimes.
I agree, people look at some lard and think it looks just like the fat that is clogging their arteries.
Also I think there is some neo Puritan mindset at work here--e.g. if something is fun or tastes good or makes you feel good then it must be bad for you. Let's face it, fat is what makes food taste good and satisfies one's appetite.
Don't forget umami and salt.
"Don't forget umami and salt."
umami is a taste dumbass
Yes, a taste that makes food taste good. Which is distinct from fat. You dumb cunt. Are you trying to win some sort of award.
Also, pick a fucking handle and stick to it.
rathering? Is that what the kids are calling anal sex these days?
"excessive consumption of sugar is bad for you. So don't do it. That's what public health officials should be focusing on"
So, all sanitation problems and contagious illnesses have been taken care of?
evidently not diabetes nor high blood pressure
Do you know what the word "contagious" means?
I actually laughed at this sub-thread.
Yeah, it's a song by the Isley Brothers, right?
That's what public health officials should be focusing on rathering than figuring how to jigger taxes and regulations to make our behavior conform to their views on what's best for us.
Standard Ron Bailey MO: Concede the principle and quibble with the details.
NB to Ron: The moment you agree this is a "public health issue," you've given them all the reason they need to do what they're demanding.
J: Providing good health/medical information is all right with me - mandating behavior is not. I think that's a pretty clear line.
And when did public health officials do that? You cite the jihad against smoking...has it occurred to you that the public health response has been precisely what you argued against, namely onerous taxation and property-rights-crushing regulations and prohibitions?
Not the governments job. The job description "public health official" shouldn't exist.
I don't know. I think that there is an appropriate role for the government in controlling dangerous contagious diseases. But that's about it.
Agreed. Hazards that are hidden, hard to avoid and which threaten directly and proximagtely affect human health are the limits I put on it. Developing diabetes over two decades while harpies like Laura Schmidt shriek at you don't qualify.
Not the governments job. The job description "public health official" shouldn't exist.
I disagree. What's to stop a hostile foreign nation from unleashing Smallpox or Ebola on us?
I consider the prevention and eradication of serious illnesses that could eradicate 50% of our population easily a valid function of government, as national defense.
However, they should not have preemptive power over an individual
How is having public health officials going to prevent that?
By stating "public health official," I assumed you were generalizing the term.
I'd prefer that someone had the authority to quarantine someone (oversaw by courts) that was a legitimate threat to my life by merely touching my hand.
I think the police can handle that in coordination with private doctors. But it was more in response to "unleashing Smallpox or Ebola." All the government can do there is clean up the mess or prevent it from happening in the first place (military).
My main issue is that there is no guarantee that the info provided by the govt will be accurate or helpful. Govt being what it is, info provided will be influenced by economic and political considerations, more so than the actual truth. Look at the nutritional information the federal govt has been giving for the last few decades--carbs/grains are good, sat. fat is bad. Not only is this not supported by science, it has actually made more people fat and diabetic.
White flour and grains are easy to ship and easy to sell. That makes it incumbent on the USDA to protect their reputation. Agricultural sales and export is USDA's big mission, after all.
Is the next proposed public health recommendation going to be regulations on how much TV people may watch per day?
It's such a short step for the nannies to go from from educating to mandating, so why even bother with that first stage?
Of course, the reduced activity from not taking that step will only increase obesity rates.
Ah, pre-diabetes... a condition that can be ascribed to everyone.
...except you.
*trombone* Wah wah wah waaaaah...
First, excessive consumption of sugar is bad for you.
------------------
so is excessive consumption of just about anything. Hey, I know; let's form a Bureau of Common Sense so highly-paid bureaucrats can tell us things that are obvious to anyone with a pulse.
The best argument against the nanny state is the nanny state itself - consider that it controls two primary vices, alcohol and tobacco. In several states, the govt runs the liquor stores; in ALL states, it regulates cigarette sales. Govt power grabs are usually thinly disguised money grabs.
Hey, I know; let's form a Bureau of Common Sense so highly-paid bureaucrats can tell us things that are obvious to anyone with a pulse.
We have that. They just call it Congress for short.
can tell us things that are obvious to anyone with a pulse.
They just call it Congress for short.
These two are mutually exclusive.
so is excessive consumption of just about anything
Exactly. Excessive by its very definition implies too much for one's own good. The redundancy of saying excessive consumption of anything is pretty apparent to me.
I'm reminded of a Mike Royko column decades ago about a company that felt compelled to come up with an OSHA MSDS (material safety data sheet) for... water.
One of the OSHA-mandated categories was "Effects of overexposure", for which the company wrote, "None". I immediately thought of drowning, but Royko put it so much better, writing something to the effect that "Obviously, the company never heard of what the Chicago Police refer to as a 'floater'."
Ah, I see the columns are on the good old Internet.
When I used to hear the word "floater" I thought somebody pooped in a pool. Ah, innocence.
There's about 10 marathon runners a year who die through drinking too much water and washing out enough salts (electrolytes) so that their system shuts down fatally. So yeah, breathing it or ingesting it exclusively and in high quantities are both contraindicated to remaining non-metabolically challenged.
There is also a disease known as psychogenic polydipsia where a (usually paranoid) patient drinks so much water they drop their electrolytes to dangerous levels; can be fatal.
I posted this a couple of weeks ago in a different thread but will repeat here about diabetes. I once met a doc who had worked with tribes in Northern Alaska. The locals had a diet which was mostly seal blubber. There had never been any diabetes in their population. But elements of a starchy-sugary western diet including chips, soda etc found their way up there, and this doc soon had the privilege of treating the first-ever diabetics of native Northern Alaska.
Toxic bureaucrats should be strictly controlled and regulated to prevent them from doing serious harm to free societies.
All you guys making cracks about how ridiculous all of this is need to pipe down. You're giving regulators ideas.
During the Tobacco MSA debacle, we kept making cracks about, "what's next? Sugar and fatty foods?" Oh how we laughed.
First they came for our Salt...
hey, hey, remember when the Smoker Nannies said "All we want is to mandate each establishment have a nonsmoking section!" Man, those were the days...
Man, I remember how damn convenient cigarette machines were. Finish your last smoke at the diner, find out you're out of cigs, and just walk over to the damn machine so you can enjoy your cup of coffee...
We really are fucked, aren't we?
When I said it I was serious. As I recall, it was the statist fucks who were laughing. "Oh you crazy libertarians! That will never happen! You're just being extremist! Blah blah blah!"
Oh you are absolutely correct. I've posted the link before, and Reason talked about it, but yeah, there were some group of tobacco nannies that were saying, "Pish Posh! It's not like we're talking about regulating fatty foods!"
People who supported the Surgeon General's warning back in the 1960s have a decent excuse in that they couldn't foresee the iron fist in the velvet-ish glove...it was just a little warning, after all. Today's pokenose nannies don't have that excuse. Hence my scorn for Bailey's support for this as a "public health" issue. Sorry, utter those two words and you've set sugar on the same path as tobacco.
The overton window principle has been applied, and we've been dumb enough to fall for it. That's why libertarians are "extremists."
Which actually makes a great argument for supporting an "anarchist party" (I know, contradiction) just to move us into the window.
How much is moderate?
What I say it is.
Depends how much they issue you.
Why am I not surprised that she is from California, San Francisco in particular?
Why am I stunned that a sociologist is telling us about nutrition?
Shouldn't she be compiling statistics about whether women or minorities are hardest hit?
People eat too much sugar - women, minorities, hardest hit.
Her profile at UCSF
She's a public health professor. Specializes in substance abuse and welfare. In other words, she spends a lot of time studying that the habits that might lead someone to be on the dole might also tend toward habitual substance abuse. Science!
No, the science part is where they figure out who else they can blame it on.
The nutrition/weight control "experts" have been putting out bad information for decades. It's completely appropriate for them to begin telling the truth now so that the public can re-evaluate their "common sense" ideas.
Bans, regulations, etc. are far outside the scope of any legitimate government role in this area.
Sugar Addict? I refuse to take that seriously.
Sugar Addict? I refuse to take that seriously.
Then you should have seen me before 7 years ago.
My BMI was 55.5 (think Epcot's Spaceship Earth), doctors putting me on low fat diets, but not losing any weight. One diet I was on fed me 900 to 1000 calories a day and specified recipes and exact weights. I still have that little scale. I lost 7 pounds in 5 months, and damn near lost my wife in the process. Then one coworker got me to support another going "back on Atkins" for two weeks. For the next 2 1/2 days you would have thought I was coming off heroin. Weakness, the sweats, the whole bit. Then I broke free. I lost 125 pounds in 8 months and I kept it off.
nothing you wrote changes my opinion
learn th e difference between "addict" and "fat guy who likes twinkies"
callme but don't spoof me.
Apparently we won the war against running with scissors, and now the country is infested with morons.
Morons...and those panting to run their lives.
+99 internets sir.
To be fair to the Bloombergers, central planning has historically been an excellent hedge against overconsumption of just about anything, so at least they're consistent.
I think the problem is it's also a hedge against production.
"Toxic Sugar".
That was stripper name that I used when working my way through college.
You probably have a few of my Abe Lincolns stuffed in your, uh, garter.
Holy fuck. Did anyone listen to it?
http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=25919
I don't know if it's just the small sample of listeners of this particular western Washington NPR station, but at the beginning when they played back listener opinion, not one single caller supported freedom. Everyone wanted to regulate it like a drug. One even pointed to the UK nanny state as the model to follow!
boots
The best way to fight the high consumption of sugar is through education. Nevertheless, sociologist Laura Schmidt is right in various fronts. Historically it has been proven that communicating strategically to the populace about the danger of smoke has indeed
produce positive results: Today there are much less smokers than there were 50 years ago. Secondly, public health affect us all through the loss of loved ones and through high medical insurance bills.
Education and a shift in behavior are necessary for the whole society to gradually make positive changes toward a healthier and more sustainable lifestyle.
There is no magical solution, neither a fast one. The main thing is that we are acknowledging the problem and recognize that change is needed.
I read a comment in the Nature magazine relating to this issue about neuro-marketing: it would not be cheating to use some of the same marketing techniques used by profitable companies to counter their effects. In other words, the food sector is bombarding the populace with images that make people crave sugary products, why not having the government or other agencies counterattack these images with ones that would promote the opposite message: eat healthy and live better.
Thanks
How to Eliminate Sugar from Your Diet
Sugar can lead to many diseases, such as Type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol. So it's definitely important to watch what you eat when it comes to sugar