Reason Morning Links: Department of Education's SWAT Team, Tim Geithner's Faith, L.A.'s Experiment With Red Light Cameras

• The Department of Education's Office of Inspector General has a SWAT Team that it sends after people who do not pay their student loans. 
• Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi politician who helped build Bush's case for war, says it's time for America to leave his country. 
• Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner allegedly has "a faith in the marketplace that puts him at odds with many of Obama's traditional Democratic allies."
• Nation-building projects in Afghanistan will not survive the withdrawal of U.S. troops, a Senate report finds. 
• Sarasota County in Florida will begin closing pain clinics when doctors are "found at fault for a patient's overdose."
• The Los Angeles Police Commission wants to get rid of the city's red light cameras. 

New at Reason.tv: "How Cultural Innovation Happens: Q&A with Anthropologist Grant McCracken"

Comments

[MNG]

Not Out of Africa?

The story of the evolution of modern humans can be a bit confusing, species-wise, with many early hominins co-existing without an obvious linear succession. But, geographically, all the action has appeared to take place in Africa, at least until the appearance of Homo erectus, which left Africa and spread globally, only to be replaced by later species of African origin: us. Over the past year or so, however, our history has become a bit more complicated, with evidence that our ancestors interbred with earlier human relatives that had already dispersed throughout Asia. Now, earlier events are also looking a bit more confused, as archeological finds in the nation of Georgia are being promoted as evidence that Homo erectus didn't even get its start in Africa.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscie.....ctus-asia/

[proegg antichicken]

So homo sapiens is the result of a global breeding effort by mostly hairless apes with unusually large skulls. I don't think this surprises anyone. How do we get that all the proto-humans were different species when they clearly were successful at interbreeding?

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

And raping, don't forget our penchant for raping.

[Lost_In_Translation]

STEVE SMITH, the original Homo Erectus

[Carnac the Republican]

Homo erectus didn't even get its start in Africa.

What happened when Barney Frank and Anthony Weiner went looking for Barack Obama's birth certificate?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Heyyyyyyyohhhhhhh.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

They found these instead.

[SugarFree]

But...but...The Multiregional Origin of Modern Humans Theory is just racism with a scientific gloss.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Now, earlier events are also looking a bit more confused, as archeological finds in the nation of Georgia are being promoted as evidence that Homo erectus didn't even get its start in Africa.

But we still know for certain the global temperature at that time, right?

[Tulpa]

Just because I don't know who was boinking who in Minneapolis on April 18, 1936 doesn't mean I don't know what the temperature was.

[Absurd Analogies Department]

Hey! We weren't consulted on this!

[Fist of Etiquette]

You're Church of AGW? Me too! I'm Our Blessed Lady of the Tree Ring. What's your denomination?

[Tulpa]

No, I'm not. But I don't stand for weak arguments even if they're from my side.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I laughed

[grrizzly]

This example illustrates the danger of treating the evolution theory as the ultimate scientific discipline. Popper was right when he stated that Darwinism was not a testable scientific theory. Believing in evolution is one of the roots of the profound scientific ignorance in the modern society.

[Brett L]

Eh. Believing in any of the other set of theories that don't involve speciation over time is also ignorant. At least some set of testable hypotheses fall out of the Darwinian belief. That said, I concur that Darwinian evolution is not as thoroughly tested as Relativity.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

"Believing" in evolution - as compared to what other explanation?

[Brett L]

The argument is that Darwinian evolution is simplistic. We have good evidence for genetic drift but we don't have evidence of, say, the jump from single cell to multi-celled organisms or formations of new organs. It is not yet fully proven, but contains the most testable hypotheses and the has the most evidentiary support. However, it is not as well founded in evidence as most of our laws of physics and chemistry.

[Tulpa]

Natural selection is a testable scientific theory. Together with a few other testable scientific theories like genetic drift etc, evolution becomes the simplest, most self-contained explanation for the diversity of life today and the fossil record.

If we only accept testable hypotheses, but not explanations of observed phenomena using those tested hypotheses, then science is essentially useless.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

Some interesting finds in China, too.

[WTF]

The Department of Education's Office of Inspector General has a SWAT Team that it sends after people who do not pay their student loans.

FUUUUUCK!!!

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

WHo doesn't have a SWAT team?

[Brett L]

Only those of us not associated in any way with the government.

[Hutaree militia]

sez who?

[Rich]

Calm down. It's probably only for people who show no remorse about not paying.

[mr simple]

That's definitely a good reason to break down his door and arrest some people. What were they hoping to find in there? Did they think she would be flushing her diploma to hide the evidence?

[Arcaster]

^ Hilarious. I was actually wondering the same thing. What could they possibly have been searching for once they realized the public menace wasn't there?

[R C Dean]

What could they possibly have been searching for that would have required paramilitary goons?

[Arcaster]

Well, they have to be extra careful. Those defaulters of student loans pose such a serious threat to public safety and all.

[PS]

And why was it necessary to detain him (and his kids) for six(!!!!!) hours?

[Fist of Etiquette]

The U.S. Department of Education issued the search and called in the S.W.A.T for his wife's defaulted student loans.

The obvious next step in SWAT application: another brick in the wall.

[WTF]

An armed home invasion, over a delinquent STUDENT LOAN? Just when you think things can't get much worse.

[CoyoteBlue]

I tell my girlfriend that "Brazil" is a documentary. She tells me that I'm crazy.

I wish I was.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I've long lobbied for use of SWAT to combat truancy.

[DJF]

And how about littering and especially those people who don't rake their lawns after mowing!!!!

[Mo]

Pay your loans or the dog gets it!

[Restoras]

+1

[DoE SWAT Team]

Hah! The dog gets it anyway! That's logic!

[Wind Rider]

A 'Student loan SWAT Team'??? Are they fucking kidding?

Holy hell. Say good night, Gracie.

[WTF]

At least they didn't shoot his dog.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

Fortunately the dog kept up on his obedience school loans.

[Student-Loan SWAT team.]

It's a revenue-enhancing device.

[MNG]

The chief Palestinian negotiator with Israel staked out a new position Tuesday in Washington: "We want to resume negotiations,"...There's just one catch. Erekat...said the talks could not begin until Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu formally accepted Obama's principle that a Palestinian state would be based on Israel's 1967 border lines, with mutually agreed swaps of territory to accommodate demographic changes.

If Netanyahu "wants to be a partner he has to say it: Two states on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps," Erekat said. "He has a choice." Without that declaration, he said, talks would not go forward and Palestinians would proceed with a plan to petition the United Nations for admission as a member state ? an initiative that Erekat said would be launched by July 15.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....._blog.html

[John]

Without the Palestinians give up on the right of return, that is a nonstarter. The makings for a deal have always been there. But the Palestinians have to give up on the right of return and agree to the existence of Israel and stop making war on Israel. Israel in return gives them land. Without that, you are telling the Israelis to give up land, and get nothing in return. Obama's infamous speech was horrific not because he called for the 1867 borders but because he called for that and a right of Palestinian return.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

"1867 borders?"
"Forget it, he's rolling."

[MNG]

" 1867 borders"

Obama called for a return to the Ottomoan Empire's occupation.

[Wind Rider]

And was immediately heckled by Armenians for not mentioning that thing.

[Pro Libertate]

Restore the Byzantine Empire, I always say.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

You'll have to divide Constantinople.

[Mainer]

was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

[Wind Rider]

^^^ Obviously, NOT an Armenian.

[Pip]

I'd be fine with the 1167 BCE borders.

[MNG]

The irony of an entire nation built upon the premise of (centuries old) right of return denying another people a (much more recent) right of return is incredible.

People forcibly removed from their land via war (a war that many of the people in question were not part of) should be allowed to return to their property.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

What's incredible is that you somehow missed the various Palestinian regimes' lust for murder and terror. They ain't noble savages.

[Tulpa]

Oddly enough, that didn't crop up until they had their land taken away.

[cynical]

No, it just got more specific and urgent.

[John]

So the Palestinians get to return to their homes but the millions of Jews who were kicked out of the Arab states do not? Why does Israel have to recognize a right of return for its enemies but you don't expect any other country to do the same?

Basically, in your view, when someone kicks a Jew out of their home, that is it, the Jew can never return. But when a Jew does the same thing, it is the world's responsibility to make sure the Jew lets his enemy back to his home.

But you are not anti-Semitic or anything. You just apply a different standard to Jews.

[shorter MNG]

JOOOOSS!!!11!!

[Auntie Semitic]

But you are not anti-Semitic or anything.

That's right, I am NOT MNG!

You just apply a different standard to Jews.

Yup.

[proegg antichicken]

They must've been chosen for a reason. MNG isn't anti-Semitic, he just applies a different standard for Jews because Jews apply a different standard for Jews.

But there's this pride thing that tells me both sides are chock full of assholes. I don't see a "good guy" here.

[John]

There really isn't necessarily a good guy. The Israelis are assholes. But they kind of have to be to survive. I would be totally game to stop aiding all of them and let them sort it out amongst themselves. Israel will be fine without US aid. And the Arabs, after they get their asses kicked a few more times will get tired of dying and make peace eventually.

[Wind Rider]

I might console myself that they'd get tired of the ass kickings and the dying, if it wasn't fashionable nether-world prep for them to enjoy eternal bliss by getting their asses kicked and dying. Whoever thought this shit up felt pretty confident they'd devised the ultimate 'Heads I win, Tails you lose' scenario, with pretty ample reason. . .

[John]

They thought up a pretty good way to get their youth to go die pointless deaths and to get large sections of the world to hate their guts.

[mr simple]

The more their kids learn about our fun crap we blow our money on, the less willing they are to die.,

[Anonymous Coward]

They were settling it on their own, more or less. Then we got involved because the Arab League grabbed the State Department by the short hairs and told them to stop the mean Jews from beating them up anymore.

[MNG]

There is no different standard. It's long accepted international law that land gained via war is ill-gotten gains, it's a universal principle that goes back as far as Locke.

During the 1990's I was heavily involved in effort to not extend MFN status to China, in no small part due to its aggresive grab of land it claimed to be ancestral in Tibet. Does that make me anti-Sino?

[John]

If 90 percent of the Chinese had been murdered and the Chinese didn't have a country and returned to their ancestral home and after they took it back, every Chinaman in every country nearby was kicked out and made a refugee and forced to go to Tibet, and then fifty years later you were insisting the Chinese get out of Tibet, yes you would be Anti Sino.

The fact that you would compare the existence of Israel to the Chinese occupation of Tibet, shows that yes you really are an Anti-Semite.

And it is funny how you are so concerned with Arabs who lost their land to the Jews but you dont' give a shit about people who loose their land via ID over here. Would it make you feel better MNG, if I told you Israel considered the Arab neighborhoods to be economically blighted?

[MNG]

Of course the situation is not exactly the same, no two situations are. But in both instances I oppose land annexed via force.

"If 90 percent of the Chinese had been murdered"

90 % of Jews were murdered? WTF are you talking about? Not even the Holocaust approached killing 90% of Jews. That's some Sarah Palin-level dumb history there.

"and the Chinese didn't have a country"

Like the Palestinians don't now.

"and returned to their ancestral home"

Which you support for Israelis but Palestinians for some reason.

"compare the existence of Israel to the Chinese occupation of Tibet"

Well, I wasn't, I was equating the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory to China's occupation of Tibet. Reading comprehension, how does it work?

"but you dont' give a shit about people who loose their land via ID over here"

Whoops, another argument based on false facts John! I've always opposed eminent domain (ED John, not ID, try to focus).

MNG|6.15.09 @ 8:25PM|#
I don't like eminent domain run amok. Liberals shouldn't. The same principles that should tell you that its goofy to empower the government side in, say, trials or interrogations, should tell you to not give the government such a broad hand to take property from citizens.

MNG|7.27.09 @ 7:51AM|#
I like to quote O'Connor's dissent in Kelo to any person who calls themselves a liberal and approves of unlimited eminent domain: "Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random. The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms. As for the victims, the government now has license to transfer property from those with fewer resources to those with more. "

How any person who calls themselves a liberal can be for that is beyond me.

[Tacos mmm...]

So the Palestinians get to return to their homes but the millions of Jews who were kicked out of the Arab states do not?

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, as Jews aren't exactly clamoring to go back to Arab countries, aren't still living in refugee camps, and actually have a nation. If there were a big refugee camp of Jews sitting on the Syrian border for 40 years, you might have more of a point.

But you are not anti-Semitic or anything. You just apply a different standard to Jews.

You know the situations aren't true parallels.

[John]

Yes they are. And to the extent that they are not parallels it is because the Arab states were total assholes to the Palestinians and wouldn't let them resettle. Why is it Israel's fault the Arabs stuck it to the Palestinians? The whole point of the Arab states not letting the Palestinians resettle was to create a giant refugee problem to stick to Israel.

[MNG]

It's not about fault, Israel currently occupies the land the Palestinians used to live on.

[John]

Arabs currently occupy land that used to be owned by Jews. But you don't seem to care about that. Again, in MNG world, the Jew always looses.

[OO]

u mean european jews occupy the land once owned by mid-east semites.

[MNG]

Yeah, because 20 centuries=45 years!

[MNG]

Just to sum, for John white Europeans right to return to their ancestral homeland they had not occupied for 20 centuries is to be uncritically supported, but Arabic brown people's right to return to their ancestral homeland they lived in less than 50 years ago is to be opposed. The right of these white Europeans to an autonomous nation of their own is uncritically defended while the right of brown Palestinians for the same is not supported. It's untenable to ask white Europeans to live in a nation only 8 miles wide but fine to ask brown Arabs to live in a strip much less wide than that.

Amazing. That double standard applied to two people who seem to differ in culture and color only. What's the obvious implication there?

Oh, and btw, didn't John get his start here in his strong support for a war in which thousands of brown Arabic people were killed?

What's the obvious implication of all that?

[Azathoth]

Brown people? You mean those caucasians of the semetic variety? Stop with the race idiocy until you understand race, k? Thanks.

Now, let's give you what you want. Palestinians get the RoR. Simple huh? But then the group before them, the ones who they forced out, want RoR as well. Can't say no--we let the Palestinians have it. And then the group before that...and the one before that. And we can keep going until we get to a point where there's none of a particular occupier left. Sadly, at least for you, I think you'll find that the gap would leave jews in charge. They were pretty thorough way back when.

Oh, sure, this regression is silly--but it is as silly at one step as it is at twenty.

Conquered lands are NOT considered ill-gotten by the winners. They are particularly not considered ill-gotten when the winners were engaged in defense.

[MNG]

"Brown people? You mean those caucasians of the semetic variety? Stop with the race idiocy until you understand race, k"

Fascinating that your sensibilities were offended by the racism charge I made but not by John's prior charge of anti-Semitism.

So in other words, you're not serious from the beginning.

[Auntie Semitic]

I am interested in this world and would like to know if they have a libertarian immigration policy.

[Auntie Semitic]

D*** squirrels!

[Auntie Semitic]

I am interested in this world and would like to know if they have a libertarian immigration policy.

[Auntie Semitic]

D*** Rothschilds!

[R C Dean]

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, as Jews aren't exactly clamoring to go back to Arab countries, aren't still living in refugee camps, and actually have a nation.

So, if the Jews were to engage in comprehensive, brutal discrimination against Palestinians who actually live in Israel in order to reduce the clamoring for return, that would take care of the first objection.

The Palestinians have a nation, too, you know. Two of them, actually. They are called Jordan and Syria, the actual nations where the actual "Palestinians" lived before Israel was created. So that's two down.

As for the refugee camps, that's entirely up to the Palestinians. Their refusal to integrate into the societies that they left Israel for (voluntarily!) back in the day is kind of a weird basis for a claim against Israel. So that's three.

[MNG]

"The Palestinians have a nation, too, you know. Two of them, actually. They are called Jordan and Syria, the actual nations where the actual "Palestinians" lived before Israel was created."

And you could not have said this about the Jewish Zionists? They had several nations they lived in. They wanted to live in their ancestral homeland. You support that, but don't support the same thing for the Palestinians. Odd that.

[John]

Palistinians are the majority in Jordan MNG. Jews have always been a dispised and tiny minority. The Palestinians only are demanding the right of return because they want to kill the Jews. There is no other reason for it. You are either willfully blind or think killing the Jews is a good idea.

[MNG]

"Palistinians are the majority in Jordan MNG."

Where the fuck do you get that from?

"The Palestinians only are demanding the right of return because they want to kill the Jews."

It's the obvious implication huh? Generalize and assume much?

"There is no other reason for it."

Yeah, that they used to live there can't be a good one.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, as Jews aren't exactly clamoring to go back to Arab countries, aren't still living in refugee camps, and actually have a nation.

I CAN NO HAZ COMPENSASHUN FUR STOLEN PROPURTEES? BUMMER.

[MNG]

Yeah, see, no prejudice towards Arabs on the part of fanatic Israeli supporters, none at all....

Sort of like this one too from above:

Palestinian regimes' lust for murder and terror. They ain't noble savages.

[John]

A coordinated campaign of suicide bombing and murdering civilians will do that MNG. Do you hold the Palestinians at fault for anything? Is there anything they can do that you won't justify?

[MNG]

Sure Palestinian groups have done awful things, both to Israelis and their own. Unlike you, I'm not a fanatical devotee of either side.

"A coordinated campaign of suicide bombing and murdering civilians will do that MNG."

Nice to see you openly defending the generalization of the Palestinians as savages John. You really hate those brown, Arabic people's, don't you? Is that why you volunteered for Iraq, to get to shoot a few?

[MNG]

What lapse in your logic exists that saying that X should have Z means Y should not have Z? Of course Jews who were kicked out of various Arab nations should have the right of return to their lands, and should be free from the awful discrimination they face(d) in those lands. You just want to bait anyone who wants some justice for Palestinians as anti-Semitic, a tired ploy indeed. I could just as easily say you are prejudiced against Palestinians for your stance, but I'm not nearly as intellectually lazy and/or deplorable.

[John]

But you completely refuse to recognize the reality that the Arab states would kill any Jews that returned. And refuse to hold the Arab states in any way accountable for this. You throw out empty platitudes for Jews who were kicked out of their homes. But you are willing to use the full might of the US and the UN to help Arabs who suffered the same. That is a double standard.

[MNG]

You're full of shit John. I'm a long time member of groups like HRW which calls for Palestinian right of return AND works hard to protect the rights of Jews (and other religious minorities) in Arab nations. I've actually volunteered on letter writing campaigns to shame the Iranian government in its treatment of Jews in Iran, WTF have you done?

[Lord Humungus]

you mean this HRW?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....ghts_Watch

I'm sure it's all malicious bias right?

[MNG]

Of course they are criticized for anti-Israeli bias, as you can see from the comments here anyone who has even the slightest criticism of Israeli actions is criticized by pro-Israeli fanatics for that. But don't take my word, go to HRW cite and resources and see that they roundly condemn human rights abuses by Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis alike.

[John]

HAHAHA I am sure the Mullahs were real impressed with the letter writing campaign. There are almost no Jews left in the middle east outside of Israel. There is a reason for that.

[MNG]

Actually human rights letter writing campaigns can be quite effective, and this is according to many dissidents who later tell us about that. But the point is not only do I have platitudes about helping Jews oppressed by Arabic regimes, but actions as well. See, unlike you I'm consistent, whether Arab or Israeli or Martian people should not be pushed off their land via force.

[T]

Fuck the Martians, MNG. They impede our manifest destiny.

[MNG]

But they have guns that shoot bees clearly in violation of the Geneva Convention.

[T]

Even more reason to drive them off Mons Olympus and any other real estate we deem useful. There's oil under those red sands, MNG!

[John]

But you completely refuse to recognize the reality that the Arab states would kill any Jews that returned. And refuse to hold the Arab states in any way accountable for this. You throw out empty platitudes for Jews who were kicked out of their homes. But you are willing to use the full might of the US and the UN to help Arabs who suffered the same. That is a double standard.

[Cyto]

At the risk of doing something stupid, I'm going to comment on this discussion.

The "right of return" simply means "right of Palestinians to overwhelm Israel via immigration and eliminate the Jewish state." Anyone advocating "right of return" of Palestinian refugees to Israel proper is simply practicing head-in-the-sand reasoning, or is willfully malicious. That is why antisemitism gets tossed about so carelessly in this argument.

If 10 million people of the Palestinian Diaspora move to Israel, a nation of 7 1/2 million and 75% Jewish, Israel will cease to be Israel. That is why "right of return" is a complete non-starter for the Israelis.

[MNG]

"The "right of return" simply means "right of Palestinians to overwhelm Israel via immigration and eliminate the Jewish state."

You were right to worry, you did something stupid right off the bat.

[Tulpa]

The "right of return" simply means "right of Palestinians to overwhelm Israel via immigration and eliminate the Jewish state."

LikkudWacko!

[Tulpa]

You know, if you're reflexively against Arabs, that also makes you an ant-Semite.

[Auntie Semitic]

Kill 'em all and let God/Yahweh/Allah sort them out.

[Tulpa]

So if China invaded the West Coast, and kicked all the white people out of California (or at least scared them out by promising PRC-style governance), you'd be totally OK with the Chinese refusing them the right of return until the white people in the rest of the US give the Native Americans back their land too.

[MNG]

The fact that you would compare the existence of Israel to the Chinese occupation of California, shows that yes you really are an Anti-Semite.

[Wind Rider]

Nobody really 'forced' them to move. It was a suggestion from the their surrounding Arab 'brothers', that have treated them so well in the mean time, that they get out of the way, all the better to be a genocidin' them hook nosed kikes.

They fucked up! They trusted 'em!

Can you say 'move you lose, dumbshits'????

[MNG]

Wow, is that meme still out there? Check out the New Historians in Israel dude, many of them are staunch Zionists but they put that narrative to bed a while back.

[Faux MNG]

It's just a conservative meme!

[Lost_In_Translation]

Two wrongs..something something something

[MNG]

I agree that peace must be a precondition. Sometimes I wonder if a multi-national force like the one currently at the Lebanon-Israeli border would be an answer.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

Dear Jews:it won't be like Bosnia-we promise!

[MNG]

Looking at the relative military strength and death tolls in this conflict if anything the Palestianians would be the Bosnians, the Israelis the Serbs.

[Wind Rider]

Maybe if this were Jeopardy, for the category heading 'here, but please don't expect us to get involved'

What is UN Peacekeepers, Alex?

[John]

As if we haven't had enough fun refereeing between the Shia and Suni in Iraq, now we can go do the same between the Arabs and Jews in Israel. That is a great fucking idea.

[Wind Rider]

Good thing we found a really killer deal on striped shirts and whistles from those Malayan child labor sweat shops. . .

[Pro Libertate]

Everybody hates referees.

[Brett L]

Especially the refs who sell their children into prostitution.

[MNG]

The force in Lebanon seems to be working. Besides, you were gung-ho for the Iraq thing, why not this?

[John]

Because the US actually has interest in Iraq. The US has no interests in helping solve this problem. Don't feed me the whole "the Arabs will love us if we just solve the Israeli problem bullshit.

[MNG]

Yeah John, no Arab emnity towards us based on our lopsided support for Israel in that conflict. Just ignore all the polls that suggest otherwise. Oh, and the Arabs own words. Oh, and history (like the OPEC actions against us in the 70's on those grounds).

[John]

Yeah, I will ignore it because first the Arabs don't give a shit about Palestinians. If they did, they would let them immigrate into their country. And second, if the average Arab hates the US for anything, it is for propping up the local ruling thug. The Palestinian issue is just window dressing.

[MNG]

Israel's duty to the Palestinians that they currently hold in occupation is not lessened by the bad actions of Arabs towards Palestinians. Additionally many of the Palestinians don't want to immigrate to the Arab nations, they want their old home back. The irony is great for you to call for that as a solution, I guess you would have opposed the creation of Israel and told them just to immigrate to European nations and blamed the latter if they did not take them.

But of course the Israelis are not brown. Is that the source of your double standard John?

[Azathoth]

The Israelis ARE brown. What planet do you live on? I could pick a random male Palestinian, deck him out in Hasidic kit, and he'd fit right in at the synagogue. They're the same people you idiot. Different tribes, but same genetics.

Or are you one of those who thinks they're all european immigrants with no history in the area? As if Judaism sprang up, all on it's own, in Europe.

And 'brown' doesn't denote a race. It's a skin tone shared by all the races on the planet.

[MNG]

"And 'brown' doesn't denote a race."

Good thing I never said it does (c'mon, pour through the comments). Are you arguing with people in your head? Do those people have a skin tone shared by all races on the planet?

But we already knew you were not to be taken seriously by your selective concern over prejudice. Yawn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah John, no Arab emnity towards us based on our lopsided support for Israel in that conflict.

Yeah, it's not as though we give the Egyptians $1.3 billion dollars in military aid annually or anything like that.

[MNG]

As part of a deal with Israel, minor detail you left out there.

[Anonymous Coward]

As part of a deal with Israel, minor detail you left out there.

Thank President Peanut for that.

[MNG]

Oh, so you did now the facts behind that and still left out that lil' detail. Whats the obvious implication there?

[Anonymous Coward]

That President Peanut is a moron, the people who believe that he is in any way responsible for the Camp David Accords is off their respective nut, and Begin and Sadat effectively manipulated the U.S. into giving them both ridiculous amounts of money?

[R C Dean]

If by working you mean allows a terrorist group to seize control of the southern part of the country and launch constant attacks against civilians in a neighboring country, why, yes, Lebanon is a sterling example of good works by the UN.

[MNG]

AFAIK the recent UN force has kept the peace in that area.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

If we stopped paying both sides and told them we won't send our kids to die for them, there'd be a treaty in less than a year.
But all our generosity gets us is endless dispute, terrorism and threats of war.

[WTF]

Bingo - Stop giving any support to either side and let them work it out themselves without outside interference.

[Auntie Semitic]

^^THIS^^

[Tulpa]

I'm not so sure about that. Israel is somewhat restrained by the strings we attach to our aid (ie, they're only allowed to incinerate civilians inside their putative borders), and I could see them really fucking with their neighbors if we stop paying them not to.

But ending foreign aid is a good idea anyway.

[Restoras]

Is this the multinational force that allows weapons shipments from Syria to Hamas?

Won't work.

[WTF]

[...]because he called for the 1867 borders [...]
A return to 1867 borders seems like an interesting plan.

[WTF]

Damn - Tim and MNG beat me to it, but I was slowed down by finding a link.

[Mo]

He never called for right of return. Here's the transcript, find that part for me.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-.....rth-africa

[John]

He didn't have to. He called for the 1967 borders and said nothing about a right of return going away in return. That is why people went apeshit about his speech. He implied that it was possible to go to the 1967 borders and grant the right of return.

[Mo]

So by not mentioning right of return, he was calling for a right of return? People went apeshit for purely partisan reasons. Why would the ADL praise the speech if it was implicitly grants for right of return?

[John]

A lot of Democrats went ape shit. It had nothing to do with R versus D politics. And yes, that is how international diplomacy works. Sometimes the most important things are what is not said. Every President since Nixon has said "1967 Borders but no right of return". When an American President then says "1967 Borders" it is a big deal.

[MNG]

"So by not mentioning right of return, he was calling for a right of return?"

Welcome to John's wacky world of Logic N' Stuff.

[John]

Go ahead MNG, deny the obvious. You are really good at that. It is your move.

[MNG]

John says the speech called for a right of return when it did not call for a right of return and he charges me with denying the obvious.

Welcome to John's wacky world of Logic N' Stuff.

[John]

By implication it did call for the right of return. Stop being stupid. The world went nuts over that speech because for the first time in 40 years an American President said the Israelis should return to the 1967 borders without demanding that the Palestinians give up the right of return. That is a big shift.

This is why few people but me will argue with you MNG. You won't admit the obvious if it cuts against you.

[MNG]

"By implication...You won't admit the obvious"

The obvious implication.

Welcome to John's wacky world of Logic N' Stuff.

[R C Dean]

Sorry, MNG. Every previous President has specifically stated that the Palestinians renouncing the right of return is a precondition to statehood.

When Obama omitted to include this, the conclusion that he was not requiring the renunciation of the right of return is logical.

In the wacky world of diplomacy and negotiation, this is known as "dropping a demand." When someone has been insisting that they get X, and you drop your demand that they not get X but nonetheless insist on a deal, you are supporting a deal that includes X.

Its only logical. 'N' stuff.

[MNG]

So, the implication via ommission is "obvious" while at the same time according to John the oft-stated, poll-registered, actions oriented emnity Arabs have for us over our Israeli support can all be happily dismissed.

Wow.

[Mo]

Except Clinton didn't mention it in 2009 and no one threw a fit. Abe Foxman loved the speech and he's hardly an agitator for Palestinian statehood.

[John]

Was Clinton President in 2009?

[Mo]

She was SoS, so she was speaking on behalf of the administration.

[MNG]

Jesus, John so thought he had ya and he stepped right into it!

[Tulpa]

Considering that we're talking about presidential speeches and there is a living ex-president named Clinton who still gives tons of speeches, I think John's question is warranted. Mo should have specified he was talking about Hillary.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I have a hard time believing the claim that "no one threw a fit" considering it's an Israel/Palestine issue. It's a rather fitful topic.

[MNG]

The entire world will support the UN move, even our allies in the Quartet. And when we use our Security Council veto on it we will have lost an incredible amount of diplomatic capital. We will be seen as not supporting autonomy for an Arab people in the midst of this Arab Spring. We've had a history of using the veto to spare Israel diplomatic shame only to bring that shame on us, it would be a pity for us to do it again, especially at a time when Israel thumbs its nose at us with one hand (i.e., on our request to end settlement activity) while extending it greedily with the other (still the largest recipient of foriegn aid).

[John]

And when the Palestinians use their state to make war on Israel, what are you going to do then? And how is it that you expect the Israeli government to explain to their people that they are going to go back to borders that make the country 8 miles wide in some places with no guarantee that the Palestinians will recognize Israel's right to exist or do anything but use the deal as a way to more effectively kill Israelis? If you were an Israeli why would you agree to such a deal or think the Palestinians will make peace? And what happens after this deal and the Palestinians continue to make war on Israel? What then? Do you go back to the 2011 borders? If not what incentive would the Palestinians have not to use their new found state to make more war and hopefully get people like you to support more concessions by Israel?

[Tacos mmm...]

Yeah, it's hard to make peace when you're that paranoid, and it's hard not to be paranoid when everyone's out to get you.

[MNG]

"And when the Palestinians use their state to make war on Israel, what are you going to do then?"

Well, the Israelis have been using their state to make war on the Palestinians for decades and you don't seem to mention or mind that. Are you that prejudiced against brown people John?

[John]

The Israelis haven't made more anymore than the Palestinians and the rest of Israel's enemies have. Israel has been attacked without provocation numerous time. Therefore, I can't really blame them for making war.

Interestingly, while I can see that both sides are waging war, you only see Israel as waging war. Why? Because you hold Jews to a different standard. I hold them both to the same standard. If the Jews started blowing themselves up in the middle of Palestinian grade schools, I would have a big problem with them too.

[MNG]

The IDF just kills hundreds of children with bombs from the sky...

But those kids were brown, right John?

[John]

"The IDF just kills hundreds of children with bombs from the sky..."

Citation please?

[MNG]

I provided this during the last discussion. I'll be happy to provide it again, but let's have some stakes for you? When I provide it you say "shit, I was not informed of that, sorry."

Man up?

[MNG]

The sad thing is the last time I provided this cite was in a discussion with John only two weeks ago!

So is his demand for the cite again due to the usual memory hole, or just usual obsfucation tactic?

http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....83877.html

[John]

No MNG, you sited the Gladston report, which I pointed out to you had since been reputiated by its author.

The Israeli's bomb childrem meme is nothing but a blood libal. But hey, you showed the other day you don't have a problem with those. So I can't say I am surprised.

[MNG]

How much stuff do you want to factually get wrong today John? Click on the link, it's not the Gladstone Report but a report by an ISRAELI human rights group.

"The first detailed casualty figures from an Israeli human rights organisation since the war ended puts the number of children under 16 killed in the offensive at 252 as opposed to the 89 cited by the military."

So, to recap just some of John's errors today:

1. Obama endorsed the right of return (by obvious implication via not saying anything about it!)
2. Western Liberals spent much of the 20th century killing Jews.
3. 90% of Jews were killed in the Holocaust.

Next thing you'll be talking about Paul Revere's ride to warn the British.

[MNG]

"No MNG, you sited the Gladston report"

Wrong again John. Are you actually the most careless poster with regards to facts in the universe? From that discussion:

John|5.23.11 @ 10:31AM|#
When have the Israelis ever engaged in the kind of indiscriminate targeting of civilians that the Palestinians do MNG? As you say "citation please"

MNG|5.23.11 @ 10:49AM|#
Here you go Captian Pedant!

http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....83877.html

The first detailed casualty figures from an Israeli human rights organisation since the war ended puts the number of children under 16 killed in the offensive at 252 as opposed to the 89 cited by the military.

[Azathoth]

People die in war. Even children. Despite the insistence of Palestinians--known to lie about such things--I do not believe that the IDF targets children. I DO believe that the Palestinians, like much of Islam, uses civilians as shields so as to make any retaliation into a massacre of innocents.

B'Tselem, incidently, is a left-wing organization that has a surprisingly hard time mustering sympathy for deliberately targeted Israeli civilians.

[John]

252? And how many of those under 16 had weapons? and how many of them were used as human shields? If the Isrealis actually targeted children the way the Palestinians do, the number would be tens of thousands not the hundreds.

[Lord Humungus]

while they are flying kites and having picnics.

[MNG]

"And how is it that you expect the Israeli government to explain to their people that they are going to go back to borders that make the country 8 miles wide in some places"

Do you know how wide Gaza is John? Considerably narrower than that. And yet you expect them to stay in that narrow area. You must really hate brown people John.

[John]

I wouldn't want to have Gaza as my country either. But I can't blame the Israelis for not wanting to die so western liberals, who spent most of the 20th Century trying to kill them, can feel better.

[MNG]

Western liberals spent most of the 20th century trying to kill the israelis?

Welcome to John's wacky world of Logic, History N' Stuff.

[John]

"Western liberals spent most of the 20th century trying to kill the israelis?"

No they spent most of the 20th Century trying to kill the Jews. That whole holocaust thing. And please don't give me the old canard that Nazism was strictly a German thing or that all of Europe sans the Netherlands doesn't have a tremendous amount of blood on their hands and guilt over the Holocaust. The Nazis were damned popular in their day. And Western Europe gladly turned over their Jews when they came. And oh, the reason why so many Jews went to Palestine after the war, because Europeans wouldn't have them back. The history of post world war II Europe is appalling in that regard.

And you knew what I was talking about. Again, stop make an honest argument for once.

[MNG]

Western liberals of the 20th century=Nazis?

Welcome to John's wacky world of Logic, History N' Stuff.

[MNG]

This is why Hitler often mocked and derided the hated liberals of the Weimar Republic...

[John]

And loved by liberals everywhere else. That is until he attacked Russia.

[MNG]

Yes, Hitler was loved by liberals everywhere, like the liberals of the Wiemar Republic he had killed, or the liberals like Orwell who traveled to places like Spain to combat his forces.

Why not go full retard John and say that Hitler invaded England to warn them not to take our arms and stuff?

[Faux MNG]

The fact that the Nazis were National Socialists in no way implies that they were of the left, just because they were socialists. Welcome to my wacky world of Logic and Stuf!

[MNG]

As Hayek noted in The Road to Serfdom central planning can be done for many purposes. When it is done to promote the goal of racial-nationalistic-militarism it's pretty hard to call it of the left.

But you're not trying to have a serious discussion as one can see by your bored charges of anti-Semitism to anyone who disagrees with current Israeli policy, so keep playing yooung man.

[Azathoth]

When it is done to promote the goal of racial-nationalistic-militarism it's pretty hard to call it of the left.

Why? The left seemed pretty into eugenics. They seemed really into Soviet conquest.

In fact, given the general behaviour of the left, it's hard to see ANY of the atrocities of the twentieth century as anything but products of the left.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

It's a mental shell game to deflect criticism and the drawing of parallels. You see, Nazi Germany's racial element means that the regime was right-wing whereas the nobly intentioned leftist Soviets were international. Wait, what's that about the doctor's plot and population "transfers" to gulag of entire nations within the Soviet Union? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[R C Dean]

Do you know how wide Gaza is John? Considerably narrower than that. And yet you expect them to stay in that narrow area.

Naturally, the long history of hostile neighbors trying to drive the Palis living in Gaza into the sea makes this analogy all the stronger.

[MNG]

Why drive them into the sea when you can simply wall them off, embargo them, and kill a few thousand from the sky every now and then?

[Faux MNG]

Why drive them into the sea when you can simply wall them off, embargo them, and kill a few thousand from the sky every now and then?

For no reason at all! It's just because the JOOOSS!!11!! are all bloodthirsty and stuff, because the Palestinians never do anything to provoke a response! JOOOOOOSS!!!!11!!1

[Shorter MNG]

JEWS!!!!!!111!!!!1!

[MNG]

The anti-Semitic charge, the first refuge of the Israeli fanatic scoundrel.

The repetition is all Gobby adolescence.

[Tulpa]

Considering you accused John of hating "brown people" you don't have much moral high ground. Both of you are slinging "ad homonyms" and lowering the level of debate.

[MNG]

Tulpa
C'mon Tulpa, you didn't get it? I'm having some goose and gander fun* about the laziness of throwing out such charges, look at the last line of my 10:05 post as well as the time stamps on John et al.'s anti-Semitism charges and my posts you mention.

* Satire is a lesson, parody is a game.

[Auntie Semitic]

The anti-Semitic charge, the first refuge of the Israeli fanatic scoundrel.

I might make some charges, but I am NO Israeli fanatic!

[Fist of Etiquette]

Sarasota's new law gives the county power to shut down a clinic if it fails to allow inspections, or if a doctor doesn't check a patient's identification. It also restricts hours of operation for clinics and bans them from opening in residential areas.

With Obamacare, we get to keep our pain management doctor if we like him, but do we get to keep our pain management legislators?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Nation-building projects in Afghanistan will not survive the withdrawal of U.S. troops, a Senate report finds.

Obvious Senate conclusion: Establish a permanent presence in Afghanistan.

[Homer Simpson]

D'oh!

[Joe M]

Lineup set for 7 contenders in NH presidential debate

I'll publicly eat my words here. I was sure they'd stick Paul on the end, but he's in the middle, right next to Romney. Even Pawlenty is outside the coveted center section. Respek!

[Citizen Nothing]

Nice to see Drew Carey sticking up for Gov. Johnson.

[Joe M]

Yeah, if all 600,000 of his followers decided to vote for Johnson, that would easily be 2% of the smaller primary totals.

[Wind Rider]

Probably the only faith Timmy has in the markets these days is that he's by now convinced that no matter what stupid shit he does on a day to day basis, that fucking marketplace just will.not.fucking.DIE.Goddamit!

[Fist of Etiquette]

And Geithner has argued for an approach that would include tax increases, spending cuts and politically explosive changes to government retiree programs like Social Security and Medicare.

The Obama Administration will choose to adopt just one of those three measures.

[Bee Tagger]

The Obama Administration will choose to adopt just one of those three measures.

You're just as bad as the Obama Administration. You're defining inactivity as activity. They will goad the other side into choosing the other 2 measures, crush them in the media thereby proving those measures won't work, and then have tax increases chosen for them.

[Wind Rider]

Oh, and like we're gonna luck out that they might decide to take the whole 'politically explosive' part of that really, really literally.

[Mike M.]

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner allegedly has "a faith in the marketplace that puts him at odds with many of Obama's traditional Democratic allies."

What a bunch of B.S. Geithner is Mr. Stimulus.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

I thought Rep. Wiener was Mr. Stimulus?

[Brett L]

I think this is kind of like the Trotsky-Lenin spectrum of respect for royalty. Even the most liberal Bolshevik was anti-Czar.

[DJF]

I notice he does not say free marketplace. After all government is part of the market, especially when its stuffing taxpayer money into the pockets of favored business, its just not part of the free market.

[Attila the Huh]

Geithner recounted for colleagues what his teenage daughter told him: If you were in Iraq, people would at least understand you were trying to help the country.

Huh?

[Attila the Huh]

"[Geithner] pushes the envelope," William Daley, Obama's chief of staff, said in an interview.

Huh?

[Bee Tagger]

Given Daley's past, that could be a euphemism for, literally, anything.

[R C Dean]

Yeah, I took it to mean Geithner pushes big envelopes of cash across the table to his once and future employers in the money center banks.

[Wind Rider]

If you were in Iraq, people would at least understand you were trying to help the country.

And even the Coptic Christian would be praying five times a day thanking God that Timmy was in America, instead of fucking around with their mess of an economy. . .

[proegg antichicken]

which seem to trigger a seemingly boundless amount of frustration and anger among many drivers in Los Angeles, who rant on Internet chat rooms and at cocktail parties

So cocktail parties and blogs beat traffic cameras!? And they tell me blogs and drinking are a waste of time.

[Bee Tagger]

The Los Angeles Police Commission wants to get rid of the city's red light cameras.

I imagine the likelihood of catching a cop doing something illegal is too high.

[SugarFree]

+1

[Pinny the Wooh]

I imagine catching a cop too high is likely doing something illegal.

[Maryland Legislature]

We're going to ban people observing cops in public, even if not recording. We don't want them to get a bad impression of cops when the cops are doing something that seems wrong.

[sarcasmic]

What are you talking about?
Traffic laws do not apply to police. It's one of the perks of the job. You don't have to follow traffic laws, you get to assault and murder people, and when you get caught you get a paid vacation.
It's a sociopath's dream!

[Bee Tagger]

Good point. This is where the show Dexter becomes unrealistic.

[Joe M]

Picture Gallery: Guerena SWAT raid shooting scene photos

SWAT raid autopsy: Guerena died quickly from massive blood loss

The medical examiner later found that 22 bullets struck Guerena, and that he died quickly of massive blood loss, and said that even quick medical intervention probably would not have mattered.

Good thing they didn't let him get any medical attention. Saving taxpayer dollars!

[Wind Rider]

Every single one of these murderous assholes should be sentenced to a minimum 25 year stint - to be served not in the US, but in Abu Ghraib, under local management. Local management that's been informed that the prisoners were guilty of storming a man's house and shooting him. One of the Marines that had served trying to stop the murderous bastards that had been shooting and blowing the shit out of their country. I'm sure they'll all be treated with the absolute best of care the Saddam-era re-hires can dredge up from the good old days. . .

[Fist of Etiquette]

Every single one of these murderous assholes should be sentenced to a minimum 25 year stint...

Panic fire in a house containing a four-year-old child? They'll probably receive commendations.

[DJF]

No awards, they failed to shoot a dog.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

Ususally the most a soldier rates is 21 guns.

[Pip]

Brutal, dude.

[Cyto]

We went from 71 shots, 60 hits, to 71 shots, 22 hits. The new report shows only 3 hits to the torso. Wow, that's some gooood shootin' there, sport.

The pics show a lot of hits to the wall a short distance down the hallway. It looks like they were off by at least 30 degrees from target. Holy crap, is that lousy fire control. These idiots let loose with barely any idea of what they were shooting at, and only a general direction in mind.

Must have had the same instructors as the Miami police involved in that shooting over memorial day weekend where they hit 4 bystanders.

[SFC B]

I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on the medical examiner saying that he couldn't have been saved. The only wound they described which would have been challenging for a medic on-the-scene to treat wound have been the lacerated artery (renal, iliac?). Maybe he'd have died in the ambulance or on the operating table, but there is no reason he couldn't have survived long enough to justify the efforts. Stuff some bandages into the wounds, give him some Hextend, and rush him to the ER.

The SWAT team allowed him to die.

[Joe M]

Oh, this is a gem:

Dept. of Education breaks down Stockton man's door

Wright said he later went to the mayor and Stockton Police Department, but the City of Stockton had nothing to do with Wright's search warrant.

The U.S. Department of Education issued the search and called in the S.W.A.T for his wife's defaulted student loans.

"They busted down my door for this," Wright said. "It wasn't even me."

It's not even for drugs any more. And people get mad about foreclosures!

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

Maybe they thought he'd flush his loan papers down the toilet?

[sarcasmic]

They smelled what they thought to be burning paper.

[SugarFree]

The Dept. of Education has police powers? What in the goddamn monkey fuck?

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

And you thought that the Catholic School Sisters were frightening.

[DJF]

And notice when the Department of Education uses it, not to protect people but to collect on debts.

[Pip]

Wasn't there a story a while back about the DOE purchasing guns?

[Anonymous Coward]

24 Model 870 12-gauge shotguns. Some handwaved it as the DoE using them for "security."

[JW]

It's like a litmus test for the batshit insane.

"A SWAT team for the Dept. of Education? Not just yes, but FUCK YEAH!"

[R C Dean]

I looked at the comments on that story. Most of them were fully supportive of the goons.

[JW]

This is why I no longer look at the comments.

My well-earned misanthropy is already approaching near-infinity levels of density. Any more and it might collapse into a singularity and swallow the Earth..

[rather]

June 08th American history. After SWAT finishes collecting student loans they can get these records

[JW]

Geithner recounted for colleagues what his teenage daughter told him: If you were in Iraq, people would at least understand you were trying to help the country.

STOP RESISTING!

[John]

According to the World Bank, there are only four million Palestinians in the territories. Why not just give them all Green Cards? I guarantee you 90% of them would take it in a minute and never return to Palestine. A few of them would probably blow themselves up over here. But we could easily handle whatever they had to offer. And in no time they would assimilate into American culture and there wouldn't be any such thing as a Palestinian and the problem would be solved.

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

We could let them have Detroit.

[John]

Sure, it is not like they could fuck it up any more. I kind of like that idea. They might actually make the place better.

[Lord Humungus]

Escape to Detroit! Starring Kurt Russell.

[Butts Wagner]

Kurt Russ-al?

[Pro Libertate]

How about the Baja peninsula, south of Tijuana and north of Cabo? It's not ours, but I'm sure the Mexicans would be willing to sell it.

[John]

I like that idea too. And you could exempt it from drug and gambling laws. Make the place Vegas on the Pacific and let the Palestinians get rich.

[Brett L]

Don't the narcotraficantes already have this? I mean, TJ ain't exactly churches and seminaries (unless you worship Pan Priapus).

[John]

The problem is TJ is a bit dangerous for the customers.

[Pro Libertate]

Nah, it's pretty empty in the middle and they have the means to relocate, anyway. Assuming the West Palestine government doesn't just become a drug and gambling paradise. Great fishing out there, by the way, so tourism is an option.

I believe that Baja is about the same length as California, so there's room galore. It's desert, but some strategically placed desal plants can solve that problem.

[Just an Engineer]

They might actually do some good if we let them all move to California.

[Kreel Sarloo]

I've always said the same thing about the Israelis. For the amount of aid we've sunk into the place we could have just given them green cards and a plane ticket and they could have made a homeland here.

Trouble is there's too many people in this country that don't want "their kind" living here.

Scratch a non-Jew who supports Israel and you've got a really good chance of finding an anti-semite underneath.

It's too bad the Palestinians have had to suffer because so many Euros and Americans don't like Jews.

[DJF]

So its all the anti-Semites fault that the Semites fight each other?

[R C Dean]

Scratch a non-Jew who supports Israel and you've got a really good chance of finding an anti-semite underneath.

So, gentiles who support Israel and gentiles who oppose Israel are both anti-Semites?

Is there any possibility of a gentile not being an anti-Semite in your world?

[Kreel Sarloo]

1) I said a chance. IOW not all gentiles supporting Israel are antisemites, only some. The rest are mostly just ignorant of history. I doubt that many of the people who oppose Israel are antisemites. Being anti-Israel is certainly not prima facie evidence of antisemitism.

2) If opposing Israel's policies is antisemitic, then a good number of Jews are antisemitic.

3) I was not being altogether serious.

[Auntie Semitic]

then a good number of Jews are antisemitic.

Hey!

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the World Bank, there are only four million Palestinians in the territories. Why not just give them all Green Cards?

Black September: American Edition.

[Fluffy]

Why not do that with the Israelis instead?

There are probably a lot more people with useful skills among the Israelis.

And fewer Israelis would blow themselves up.

So it would be a win all around.

[John]

That would work better. The problem is that the Israelis have turned their country into a great place and wouldn't want to come. The Palestinians in contrast live in a hell hole. They would take a green card in a heart beat. You wouldn't have to forcibly relocate them. They would come on their own.

The only ones who would stay are the crazy fucks who just want to kill Jews and set up some kind of Islamic thocracy. And fuck them. Let the Israelis kill them. But average Palestinian just wants a job and a decent life and would gladly give up the fight and come to the US if we let him.

[Mike M.]

Get a load of this, Obama wants us to help bail out Greece.

[DJF]

The US already is bailing out Greece through the IMF and World Bank, its just that now the bailout will be even bigger and the US debt will be bigger.

I wonder who will bail out the US taxpayer?

[Pro Libertate]

The U.S. government!

[JW]

Correct!

[Pro Libertate]

Bootstrapping--another miracle of government intervention!

[kinnath]

I heard that Netanyahu would consider returning to the 1967 borders after the US returns to is 1959 borders.

[DJF]

The US borders have not changed much since 1959. I guess the US would get back Panama Canal but that is about it except I think some Pacific Islands got independence but I am not sure which ones

[kinnath]

I heard that Netanyahu would consider returning to the 1967 borders after the US returns to is pre-1959 borders.

Fucked up the joke.

Hawaii became a state in 1959. Obama would not be eligible to run as president.

[Kreel Sarloo]

Doesn't work, people born in Hawaii before 1959 were citizens with or without statehood.

[John]

WE are not Jews. So we have no worries

[Some Call Me. . .Tim]

I would gladly return to my 1987 borders but I just can't stop eating pie.

[Virginia]

Mish word-clouded Bernanke's latest speech... classic.

[Mike Laursen]

The Department of Education's Office of Inspector General has a SWAT Team that it sends after people who do not pay their student loans

Meanwhile children across the country ate suffering because of shrinking public library budgets. Yet Republicans don't see the crying need to get the DHS involved in collecting overdue book fines.

[Lt. Bookman]

Well, let me tell you something, funny boy. Y'know that little stamp,
the one that says "New York Public Library"? Well that may not mean
anything to you, but that means a lot to me. One whole hell of a lot.
Sure, go ahead, laugh if you want to. I've seen your type before:
Flashy, making the scene, flaunting convention. Yeah, I know what you're
thinking. What's this guy making such a big stink about old library
books? Well, let me give you a hint, junior. Maybe we can live without
libraries, people like you and me. Maybe. Sure, we're too old to change
the world, but what about that kid, sitting down, opening a book, right
now, in a branch at the local library and finding drawings of pee-pees
and wee-wees on the Cat in the Hat and the Five Chinese Brothers?
Doesn't HE deserve better? Look. If you think this is about overdue
fines and missing books, you'd better think again. This is about that
kid's right to read a book without getting his mind warped! Or: maybe
that turns you on, Seinfeld; maybe that's how y'get your kicks. You and
your good-time buddies. Well I got a flash for ya, joy-boy: Party time
is over. Y'got seven days, Seinfeld. That is one week!

[Fluffy]

And when the Palestinians use their state to make war on Israel, what are you going to do then?

Um...watch the Palestinians all die in a nuclear fire?

Can we please dispense with two particular insanities?

1) The the United States can be conquered (by Islam, Communists, the French, whoever)

2) That Israel can be conquered

Attempting either of these ends in the utter annihilation of any one who tries it.

Both the US and Israel are subject to security threats. But NEITHER of them are subject to "existential" threats. Israel cannot be pushed into the sea without a regional Armageddon that exterminates her enemies and their populations and transforms the Middle East into the surface of the moon.

[John]

You are wrong about Israel. Who are the Israelis going to nuke? If they nuke the Palestinians they will make most of their own country uninhabitable too. The Israelis could nuke Iran or Egypt but nuking the PA is like New York nuking suburban New Jersey. It would kill them to.

Further, no way would Israel be able to get away with such a thing. The whole world woudl turn against them even more so than now.

If the Iranians are as crazy as they say they are, they are willing to sacrifice ten or 12 Iranian cities to destroy Israel once and for all. That is an existential threat.

Finally, if the Arabs succeed in making Israel uninhabitable, people will just move away and the population over a few generations will die out and that will be that.

[John]

And the Palestinians have been making war on the Israelis for decades. They haven't died in a nuclear fire yet. All they have to do is keep making life miserabl for Israelis and destroy the economy and the Jews will start to move to the US and the population will go down and they will win. It will take a while. But they can do it.

[Fluffy]

That is not an existential threat, John.

An existential threat is "Someone conquers us and we cease to exist as a polity".

10 or 12 Iranian cities? Srsly?

What, are the Israelis SWAT cops or something? 49 out of 50 of their nukes are going to miss?

[John]

They will double tap some places. And it takes more than one nuke to wipe out an entire city. And fifty nukes will not wipe out a country as big as Iran. But seven or eight would Israel.

[Hiroshima]

And it takes more than one nuke to wipe out an entire city.

Uh... Pardon me?

[Nagasaki]

^^^THIS!!!^^^

[Auntie Semitic]

And fifty nukes will not wipe out a country as big as Iran. But seven or eight would Israel.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Fluffy]

If "making Israelis miserable" is an existential threat, then there is no set of borders Israel can have that will end that threat and denying the Palestinians a state doesn't end that threat.

So that would tend to make all the "Israel needs this or that particular set of borders to survive!" kind of talk a bit silly, don't you think?

[John]

Israel, like any other country, needs peace to survive. You cannot live in a constant state of war forever. Eventually your will will break and you will lose. The Palestinians can win this conflict, not in years or even decades but over generations by making life intolerable for the Israelis and finally causing them to give up.

["TT Tim Pushes the envelope"]

Glad to see Tim "pressuring" Obama to cut the $4-trillion-dollar deficit.