SWAT Helmet Cam Captures Shooting of Jose Guerena

Iraq War Veteran Jose Guerena, 26, was shot and killed on May 5 by a Pima County SWAT team that fired 71 bullets through Guerena's front door. The video of that raid, captured on a SWAT helmet cam, is below. 

Video via The Agitator. See Reason's coverage of Guerena here. 

Comments

[Gun Owner]

Well...that's fucked up. Thanks for making sure I don't sleep well tonight.

[SpongPaul]

No Shit. BTW i did not once hear them say POLICe, nor did they give time to answer the door. 4 seconds to open a door is just dumb, i can not even get up in that time. Theese officers should be charged with manslaughter and sent to jail, no need to open fire at all. Dept. procedures were not followed!!!! As a former law officer, i am appaled at this wshow of force. APPALED!

[Old Soldier]

What an incredible goat-fuck of incompetence. No way have those guys had even one day of training. That is the opposite of how to do dynamic entry in every way.

They didn't stack. They didn't knock - or did it too quietly to hear on the tape. They didn't go through the door, just stood there blasting. Nobody even called "clear" ? the random unaimed gunfire just kind of trails off.

That Marine could have killed half of them if he wanted.

It's the Keystone Cops with military weapons. They should all be jailed for impersonating police officers.

[Achtung Coma Baby]

Not to get off topic, but I wanted to point out the Maddow Blog and the commenters' retarded liberal response to Rand Paul's defense of the Fourth Amendment.

Warning: It will make your balls ache worse than the Jose Guerena story.

[SIV]

You deserve it for even reading that. If I want liberal idiocy the NYTs can provide it without insulting my intelligence.

[Achtung Coma Baby]

But SIV, the balls...they ache! Only replays of Rand Paul's speaking in on the topic this afternoon can soothe the soreness in my balls.

[Maddow]

I love bwidges!!!!

[JW]

Nope. Not reading it.

If I want to see full progressivism in action, I'll go to the local mental ward.

[SIV]

Too bad there wasn't some "collateral damage",

[The Wine Commonsewer]

May they burn in hell.

My father told me many years ago that the US was becoming a police state. He was right.

[Law Student]

More like military state judging by their uniforms and tactics.

[Tulpa]

In a police state this video wouldn't have been released.

[Gun Owner]

So Iran isn't a police state? Because they released videos there of protesters being killed.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I'm sure they were thinking the five seconds of car security alarm sounding on the audio vindicates them as proof the homeowner knew they were police.

[dunphy]

after hearing that on the video, i think that was a major mistake. cops should IMO (and i have done it on warrants I have been involved with) have numerous patrol cars (clearly visible) and actual SIRENS etc sound before attempting dynamic entry

not car alarm bullshit

sirens

[Contrarian P]

How about instead shouting "police" while knocking on the door, waiting for the person to answer the door, and producing a warrant?

[rather]

She has the power now
http://reason.com/blog/2011/05.....nt_2301635
I can't help but think of Emmett Till's photo released by his mother to visualized the brutality of her son's murder.
Mrs.Guerena should demand any pictures or video be made public

[Fraternal Order of Police]

Sorry, mam, can't let you do that.

[Joel]

What odds would you take on these cops facing homocide charges (you know, that little thing called justice): 10:1, 50:1, 100:1?

[rather]

Sadly, it depends if she works the media. If she is hispanic, and ESL the results are less so. By way of explanation, the case of Tiffany Hartley, widow of David Hartley murdered by the drug cartel is still in the news. She has become a symbol of border violence victims

[CharlesWT]

The siren sure sounds like a car alarm. And there's certainly no siren on approach.

Tucson SWAT shooting of former Marine (video)

[free2booze]

SWAT did announce "Police, search warrant, open the door", then five seconds later, forced their way in.

I have no idea five seconds is enough time for a reasonable person to process what is going on. We'll never know how Guerena was holding his weapon, etc, etc.

The whole state of affairs is tragic.

[Maddow Blog Commenter]

Whoa, you must be one of those gun-nut Fourth Amendment types!

[rather]

SWAT did announce "Police, search warrant, open the door"

The tape needs to be put through waveform, spectrographic, spectrum analysis.

I have no doubt the event is genuine but the sound was interesting

[JohnG]

Even if they announced that, if I'm on the inside, how can I be sure the people busting down my door are really the police?

[Cyto]

How can they even suspect that anyone inside heard them? If I'm in the kitchen making breakfast, there's zero chance of me understanding something outside my front door that is barely audible from 10 feet away without a house in the way. Or if I'm in bed asleep. Or in the shower. Or watching TV. Or anything at all other than standing quietly at the front door waiting to hear if someone outside says something. "Announce" my ass.

In the lemonaide from lemons cam - this could be another example for Cory Maye's attorneys to bring in to show how "Knock and announce" doesn't mean what the police say it means.

[DJF]

Five seconds was probably long enough for Guerena to make sure his safety was on, before they shot him.

[Mike]

These guys obviously have the money to invest in a lot of expensive gear.

They've never heard of a bullhorn?

Buy one. Use it. Make it clear TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD (i.e., it's loud) that it's the cops busting down a door.

[daveInAustin]

They used their bullhorn after the shooting, when they really wanted to be understood. When they were just going through some motions to satisfy some arbitrary 15 second rule they just yelled, then promptly went silent as soon as the door was opened. Read the documents on Az star. They say they wanted to sneak up on them so the residents couldn't flush pot down the toilet.
http://azstarnet.com/online/pd.....002e0.html

[rather]

How many cameras can you see on their helmets? The footage released is from the officer who may have only gone in after-the-fact

[Wind Rider]

The only thing not captured on the video was this bunch of assholes pissing their pants like frightened little girls as they panicked and emptied every round of ammunition they had loaded. The people of Pima County AZ are being 'protected and served' by a cowardly bunch of self styled 'macho' pussies. They aren't qualified to be fucking Mall rent-a-cops. Here's hoping that the incident causes them all permanent erectile dysfunction, because under no circumstances should these afterbirth contaminants ever be allowed to reproduce and perpetuate their stupidity.

[Troy]

testicular cancer.... assuming they have balls.

[rhofulster]

The body language of the officers before they breach the door - and some of them even after they breach the door - seems kind of casual. A couple of guys totally turn their back on the door after it's breached.

I would think that if they beleived that it was a dangerous situation they would be tensed up. If I was there and beleived I was in danger, I sure as fuck would be paying attention to that big front window.

[rhofulster]

believed

[Doc S.]

I before E except after L... wait thats not right is it??

[Joe R.]

It looks like one guy in the back, on the left, comes up and starts shooting his pistol through the door, with zero visual of what's inside.

[Cyto]

Yeah, he's real eager to get in on the shooting. Kind of a "me too" action. Lucky for him nobody stood up to advance. The angle of fire seems distinctly downward too. Gotta make sure that body on the floor doesn't get up, zombie style! I've played Left 4 Dead, ya know - your're not gonna get that one over on me....

[dunphy]

yup, and that would be an unlawful use of force in law enforcement

we MUST have view of what we are shooting at. we are accountable for our rounds. cops, unlike military, cannot use suppressive fire

one time i was shot at, all i could see was a muzzle flash, and not anything else (i was inside a bright room and the shot came from a deck outside. i should not, and did not return fire, for the reason i could not identify my target, etc.

granted, there was a bunch of people who ran across my line of fire immediately after the shot anyway, but the point is - we MUST identify a threat and must not lay down suppressive fire

[Contrarian P]

Remember a few days ago, when you were telling us all to trust you, cops don't do those sorts of improper things?

[Jordan]

Stop being an asshole. Dunphy is a decent guy.

[Old Soldier]

What you are seeing is incompetence and an incredible lack of discipline.

That kind of BS that will make an NCO go absolutely batshit crazy on some fucked up Privates. Obviously that department has nobody competent in any position of authority.

[Brian]

So ten seconds of siren, a knock and a muffled announcement barely audible in the video counts as police announcing themselves? Shouldn't he have at least gotten the chance to open the door and comply?

[Maddow Blog Commenter]

You are a typical Fourth Amendment Fascist!

[Colonel_Angus]

When transhumanism comes, I want my cyber body to be equipped with 'martyrdom'.

[Sparly]

And if he was doing it right he would have had at lease one claymore right in the doorway.

[Ken Shultz]

When I lived in a nasty part of LA, I never opened the door for anybody unless I'd ordered a pizza; I'd just yell through the door. And I always grabbed a weapon whenever anybody knocked.

I don't understand how we're supposed to know it's the cops at our door before they open it, or how we're supposed to drop our weapon before we know it's the cops.

[jcalton]

I don't understand why SWAT wears black [other than that it looks super-cool and intimidating and all the best gangs wear black]. That makes it almost impossible to identify them, particularly at night/in a dark house.

Wouldn't it make more sense if they wore caution yellow or construction orange? Isn't SWAT all about defusing danger, saving lives, de-escalating situations?
If I see shadowy figures in my house, there's a good chance I'll shoot. But no criminals are going to wear day-glo colors to rob me. I'd at least hesitate or be inclined to believe they were legitimate authorities.

[John]

That is a good point. There ought to be a law that says they should have to wear bright pink.

[Ted S.]

Hot pink. If it's good enough for Joe Arpaio....

[Doc S.]

It depends, I'm sure one of the reasons they wear black is for situations at night and where it's dark. In the interest of self protection wearing orange and yellow would only make you an easier target.
Remember saving their own lives is paramount.

[DJF]

If they want to save their own lives then they should hang out at the donut shop.

[Cyto]

Or dayglo orange to avoid friendly fire.

[Mensan]

That reminds me of how I used to cheat on Medal of Honor: Allied Assault multiplayer. I installed skins that made all my opponents appear in safety orange uniforms.

[H man]

May I suggest red coats.

[jcalton]

Note the guy closest to the camera, who just runs up and starts randomly firing a sidearm. Not that the others did, but this guy for sure had absolutely no idea what was going on.

Also, his rounds would be easy to separate from the other 70.

[Ken Shultz]

I don't think the cops have any special exemption for being cops either.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure someone just holding a gun is necessarily grounds to shoot somebody. I'm also thinking about a verdict I heard about in Oklahoma earlier today...

http://online.wsj.com/article/.....53696.html

This pharmacist was being held up--a kid came in waving a gun. So the the pharmacist drew his weapon and shot the guy.

So far so good.

But then the pharmacist chased the unarmed robber out of his store, and he walked past the guy he shot, who was laying on the floor. He walked past the guy, went to a drawer and pulled out another gun, and then the pharmacist proceeded to pop the robber laying on the floor several times at point blank range--killing him.

The first shot in that case was self-defense in my book--I don't think anybody would argue about that. But once the guy's incapacitated, at some point, it stops being self-defense.

Even if they want to say the first ten shots were in self-defense, how could the last 61 be self-defense?

When I took the class, they said we were responsible for every shot we fired.

I don't understand how somebody can be shot more than a few times, presumably with 40 caliber bullets or larger, and not be incapacitated.

And if you're saying that shooting an incapacitated suspect should be a criminal charge, then I agree with you. Maybe there were some extenuating circumstances, but that needs to be considered by a jury.

That guy running up and adding his shots to the mix, yeah, I don't have an explanation for that either.

[Cyto]

You've obviously never played Left 4 Dead. Corpses get up and jump you all the time. You gotta be sure man... There's your extenuating circumstance...

[TrickyVic]

""But once the guy's incapacitated, at some point, it stops being self-defense.""

It's self-defence until the officer stops shouting "stop resisting".

[Bryan C]

How incapacitated is incapacitated? If you shoot the guy in the leg and he falls down, he could still shoot you. And even an ultimately fatal shot isn't necessarily going to incapacitate the person until they've had time to hurt you or someone else nearby. Or you may not even know if you hit them. Be careful. You're perilously close to creating a perverse incentive to kill rather than wound.

[omg]

I think was Ersland did was far more understandable then what these pigs did. With Ersland, a few low lifes came into his store guns blazing to rob him (they had obviously done their homework as he had his narcotics and money out in the open at the time they came in). Sure the guy was on the ground, but at the time Ersland didn't know whether the kid was armed or what he was going to do.

These cops busted into someone else's house and filled the homeowner full of lead. If they really wanted to "protect themselves" they could have just left the premises.

[Coeus]

When I saw the video for that incident, the first thing I thought was:

RULE #2 DOUBLETAP

[daveInAustin]

Again this just sickens me. It is pretty clear that Guerena had no idea what was going on. It took me about 5 times to hear what they were saying. Notice that after they breached the door, when they would be more intelligible to the people inside, they didn't say a word. They ran the siren for 8 seconds.

[dunphy]

maybe you couldn't hear what they were saying because the cops who were yelling it were FACING the house, and in the opposite direction of the guy with the helmet cam

here's a hint. there is a directional aspect to sound

[daveInAustin]

dunphy,
There's a traveling-through-walls-and-doors aspect to sound too. If you wanted to understand someone, do you think it would be better to be right behind him, or in front of him, but with a wall between the two of you? I'm wide awake and I can't make out what they were saying before they busted down the door and I didn't hear a word between the time they opened the door and the time they started shooting.

[Cyto]

More emphasis: How loud do you have to shout to talk with your wife in the kitchen from the bedroom?

Don't pretend for one second that this is in any way a legitimate "announcement" of police presence. I don't give a rat's but what procedures say - I have enough experience in the real world to know that there is almost zero chance of a single spoken sentence on the front porch being heard throughout the entire home, let alone understood in all parts of the home on the first attempt.

Anyone arguing otherwise is wearing their tribal glasses. Do you really believe that if you were in your own home doing your daily activities - watching TV, sleeping, taking a shower, washing dishes - you'd be able to understand that sentence fragment?

You really could discern that announcement from "Hey Pete, it's Brian!" or "Gimmie the Shit, Greaser!" or "Where's my money, asshole!?!". Come on, man. There's zero chance of a single sentence being understood in even a majority of cases, let alone with the absolute certainty that a deadly force encounter should require.

If you are going to "knock and announce" you should be required to knock in a manner that someone trying to get the door answered would use (i.e. knock and wait a while and knock again and wait, etc.) and announce in a manner that is designed to ensure you are understood (i.e. wait to hear an answer that tells you that you have been understood, or use an amplified voice to repeat the announcement several times)

Otherwise, if tactical advantage must be maintained, do not use the knock and announce. From a tactical point of view this method is the worst of all worlds. Just enough noise and time to alert the residents, but not enough to quell resistance from law-abiding citizens. And from a civil liberties point of view the automatic presumption that "knock and announce" creates a magic world in which any resistance is now by definition assault on an officer. Any shooting by the police is justified (he had a dangerous golf club at 20 feet and I was only wearing body armor, helmet and face shield!). Any resistance is murder. Despite the reality of what just happened.

I know these guys are your tribe, but you have to know that the procedures they are being taught are dead wrong. Their training, procedures and legal support combine to create deadly situations without any justification. There's dozens of ways they could have avoided killing this guy. They chose the method that was most likely to result in an accidental killing (short of just going there to execute the guy).

[TrickyVic]

""here's a hint. there is a directional aspect to sound""

Depends on the frequency. But the bandwith of the human voice is largely directional.

Substance density of the materials that the sound must pass through decreases the amount of sound that can pass.

It could be possible that if the mic could barely hear the voice, someone inside the house, not near the door may not have understood it too.

[dunphy]

i completely agree

and imo,

1) bullhorns should have been used. i've used them
2) SIRENS, not car alarms should have been used

that's BASIC shit

[jcalton]

There IS a directional aspect to sound. No officer in the doorway ever turned around to tell the guys behind him to run in and start firing.

That's why I think--if nothing else--the guy that ran up and started randomly firing is more guilty than the others...of whatever it is their internal reviews determine they are not guilty of.

[??]

Wow.  If this is typical of how SWAT teams react, then we need to defund SWAT teams.  If this event wasn't so tragic, their actions would be comical.

[dunphy]

considering from THIS helmet cam, i can't see what the fuck actually happened to prompt the officers to fire, i remain... agnostic.

how unsurprising that the usual prejudices (cops guilty until proven innocent) come out in this thread, then.

also, irrc, this warrant was AUTHORIZED "NO KNOCK"... so the whole announcing etc. may have seemed short, but that's kind of the point. it wasn't a conventional warrant, both a judge and prosecutor based on info in the affidavit, approved the warrant to be a no-knock. so, the time they took before breach must be understood in the context of the orders from the judge, which is what a warrant is.

iirc, they served the warrant around 9 am. it's clear they are standing in broad daylight, with identifying yellow notices all over their uniforms.

was the shooting justified? i have no idea. nor does this video lead to a conclusion either way

i would LOVE if one of the officers at the door had a helmet, and that video is released. that might lend some light

[John]

Dunphy,

There are so many of these incidents every year, the cops are guilty until proven innocent. Anytime there is a shooting during one of these raids, there ought to be a grand jury investigations and more times than not one or more indictments.

And yes, when there are indictments, the arrest warrants should be served by no knock pre dawn SWAT raids.

[dunphy]

does this post have a point?

so many of WHAT incidents? cops defending themselves or cops gunning down somebody without cause?

i have no idea WHICH kind of incident this IS.

do you?

if the former, it's tragic, but lawful. if the latter, they deserve to be prosecuted.

[John]

I mean incidents were unarmed people are shot by trigger happy cops. And sadly most cops get away with it. Cases like the Diallo case in New York are not accidents or tragedies they are crimes.

LE officers ought to be held to a higher standard than the public. There ought to be a crime for "negligent homicide". We give you authority as an LE. With that ought to come the responsibility of being held criminally responsible for your negligence. You better be absolutely sure that the person you are shooting is a threat because if they are not you are going to jail. That would put a stop to this crap very quickly. It would also put a stop to no knock raids and send us back to the good old days of cops identifying themselves before charging into a house.

[dunphy]

jeez, the ignorance here is astounding

1) there IS a crime for negligent homicide. in most jurisdictions
2) was this guy an unarmed person shot by trigger happy cops? i have no idea. do you?
3) if you really want to get into the diallo case, we can. fwiw, the main problem with prosecuting that case, and IT WAS PROSECUTED, was that the prosecutors overcharged. a bad tactical decision
4) nobody, not cops nor anybody else needs to be "absolutely sure" in a self defense shooting. that's not the law. i TEACH that shit. you simply have no fucking idea what you are talking about. i have helped in two recent CIVILIAN shootings (self defense) investigations. in NEITHER case was the standard for self defense, that they had to be "absolutely sure". that is not a standard in any jurisdiction

[John]

I am a lawyer. and I teach LE. I know what the law is. And I am saying what the law should be. No, you shouldn't have the same right of self defense that a civilian does. You should have to be sure.

Let me put it in brutal terms. The reason why law enforcement is a noble profession is because your job is to die so that civilians don't. If you don't like the prospect, find a new profession. The problem is that we have taken that concept and turned it on its head and made it the civilian's job to die once in a while to ensure the officer's safety. Better to have restrictive laws that get the occasional cop killed than loose ones that get the occasional innocent civilian killed. It is really that simple.

[Madbiker]

"The reason why law enforcement is a noble profession is because your job is to die so that civilians don't. If you don't like the prospect, find a new profession. The problem is that we have taken that concept and turned it on its head and made it the civilian's job to die once in a while to ensure the officer's safety"

Thanks for this John; well stated. I will be sure to recall this the next time I get into a discussion with a cop-fellator.

And: Noble profession my ass. Any profession is going to have its good guys and its a-holes, to be sure. I've know many cops, some locals but mostly NJSP, who have the most effed up personal lives and values. They use the excuse of the "stressful, noble, sacrificial nature of duty" for everything from hard drinking, cheating/adultery, gambling away the house and kids' college money, and just generally thinking they have the right to be complete shitepiles to everyone they meet.

There is something about the nature of the profession that attracts people like this. I know 2 or 3 cops who are genuinely good people who do the job because of a sense of right. The rest might start out this way, but eventually something corrupts their intentions and turns them into bullies who can legally swagger around with guns and pay no consequences when they do wrong.

[John]

Biker, I have a good friend who until recently taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He taught there for over 10 years. He will tell you that LE attracts people who have a certain personality type that like to bully. They join for the power not to serve. Sad but true.

[SpongPaul]

THe reason i resinged after only 9 months. I could not with a clear conscience sleep at night if i was to enforce all of the laws. i let lots of people slide with possesion. so i left the job, rather than arrest and harm innocent people. Don't regret it one bit. I would have been jailed for malfescence in time, 🙂

[fish]

Let me put it in brutal terms. The reason why law enforcement is a noble profession is because your job is to die so that civilians don't.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

It is noble to collect a pension! The mundanes.....well nobody ever made a cool TV show about them!

[Lucy]

Thank you. We can't have it both ways. If they're noble and brave and fighting for us, then they had damn well better risk their lives to make sure they don't kill innocent (or even guilty) people. They don't get to be called brave, given lethal force privileges and then let to be trigger-happy goons whose first priority is themselves.

I mean, they do, but we're talking ideally here.

[dunphy]

i'm not talking about what the law SHOULD be

i am talking about what the law *is*.

if you want to have a discussion about what it SHOULD be, that's great, but is totally unresponsive to what i was saying.

i, and everybody else, is responsible for acting within THE LAW

not the law they WANT, but the law we have

i'd love it if MJ was legal. it isn't

i'd love it if cops COULDN't do warrants for any possessory drug offense, no matter what the drug.

i'd love it if...

but i am talking about the law as it is.

[Wind Rider]

jeez, you desire to jump to the aid of trigger happy cops is amazing. Yes, I think 'trigger happy' applies quite well here. Particularly the moron who begins "me too" shooting with his handgun THROUGH his bunch of buddies busily emptying their weapons on full auto. May claim that's too much of a stretch to claim full auto, or wiggle and whine about sound characteristics of a helmet cam mike not picking up ALL the gunshots, but how in the hell to you get what works out to about 12 rounds per dumbshit in this scenario so quickly? Opening fire as a PREEMPTIVE action, when the officers WERE NEVER FIRED UPON reeks of panic and stale urine in their shorts.

The more infuriating point is that these jackasses were placed in a situation where they were set up to (eventually) FAIL by their simpleton minded superiors who shoose keeping their dumbass troops happy by going out and playing RAMBO. Hey, wasn't the whole SWAT concept orginally to have the capability IF regular, civilized police actions were insufficient? Hey, I've got no problem if all the junior Rambos wanna strap on the Kevlar, the kneepads, the high speed Gargoyle glasses. . .and then sit their asses down in the hot sun or a damned panel truck AS BACKUP, should the approach of a couple of NORMALLY UNIFORMED OFFICERS, make the initial contact and assessment of the situation.

Oh, and for what it's worth, the 'they might destroy evidence' -or- 'they may have a gun/be violent/try to run' if they're not totally surprised with overwhelming force seems to be a cover-all excuse for lackadaisical, incompetent, or non-existent recon, observation, or intel on the 'targets'. Plus the entire concept of state sponsored citizens with a mindset that other citizens are 'targets' is a completely fucked up viewpoint, exhibiting traits that should disqualify one from the power of carrying a gun with the ability to lord over his neighbors.

[Fatty Bolger]

Wind Rider, I have a relative who is a cop, and he says that most of these "SWAT" teams are nothing more than local cops with fancy equipment and little specialized training. In other words, they don't know what the fuck they are doing, and from the video that looks like the case here.

[Wind Rider]

^ ^ ^ this. Wonder what kind of an uproar would ensue if untrained morons ran around suddenly deciding it was their job to randomly perform surgery on random members of the general public, and, oh, quite often weren't very damned good at it.

[Spoonman.]

12 rounds per dumbshit

Can we ask that all future reporting on SWAT raids use this "rounds per dumbshit" metric?

[dunphy]

i haven't jumped ot the aid of anybody, in that i have never even suggested this was a justified shoot.

hth

[Fatty Bolger]

Unarmed? That misses the point entirely. Are you saying that simply holding a gun in your own house is a crime which allows the police to shoot you on sight?

[TrickyVic]

""1) there IS a crime for negligent homicide. in most jurisdictions"""

How many cops have been found guilty of that crime while performing their duty? I challenge you to find five in the entire country.

""Cases like the Diallo case in New York are not accidents or tragedies they are crimes.""

John, Dumphy is right about the Diallo case. They were tried. Juries usually do not convict cops of such behavior in the line of duty, no matter how ugly it gets, or how wrong it seems.

""nobody, not cops nor anybody else needs to be "absolutely sure" in a self defense shooting.""

Dunphy, I'm not sure what that means. But I would bet money that the meaning differs if your a cop or not. Case in point, Ryan Fredericks wasn't absolutely sure who was breaking into his house. He fired, killed an officer, and was found guilty of manslaughter.

[dunphy]

for fuck's sake. it means EXACTLY what i said it means. i have responded, and assisted in investigation of civilians shooting in self defense (in the home and elsewhere)

nowhere was it ever a question that they must have been ABSOLTELY sure before firing.

it is NOT the legal standard used in justifying deadly force, or self defense

your ryan fredericks example doesn't disprove my point. if i need to explain, from an analytical reasoning perspective - WHY, i will

hth

[John]

And to be fair, it ought to be the death penalty for anyone who shoots a cop in the line of duty. And assaulting or inhibiting a cop doing his duty ought to be a serious felony. But the pay back for that is, cops have to wear uniforms and identify themselves and give people a chance to react and know it is a cop before going into a house. Who cares if they flush some dope down the toilet?

[dunphy]

i don't give a flying fuck if anybody flushes drugs. but then i am against the war on drugs. as long as LEGISLATORS continue to want drug possession to be a crime, then the drug flushing is an issue

it should NOT be

blame the legislators. they could fix this

here's a hint: this warrant wasn't about that shit anyway

[John]

Look, absent a hostage situation or arresting Bin Ladin, there is no reason to kick down a door like that.

You need to think about this. I come from a long line of veterans and law abiding people. You will not find a more law and order type of people than my family. Yet, my family has gotten to the point where no one has any respect for cops. And it is not because any of us or criminals or have ever been arrested. It is because of stories like this. And the fact that cops seem to do nothing but enforce bullshit laws, kick peoples doors down and harass people.

You and every other LE in America need to ask yourself, how did you lose people like me? Something is wrong here. Stop kicking down doors.

[dunphy]

the warrant was in relation to PC that he was involved in a home invasion robbery ring.

whatever that PC was or wasn't (i have not seen the PC affidavit), it was good enough for a prosecutor and a judge.

i think it should be RARE for there ot be dynamic entries. fwiw, i've personally done a bunch of them

[Contrarian P]

"the warrant was in relation to PC that he was involved in a home invasion robbery ring."

And there has yet to be a shred of evidence produced as to why this was suspected, or evidence from the scene other than perfectly legal items that have many other potential uses. If the guy hadn't been home at the time, what was found would not have been enough to arrest him.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm really tired of this "we had intel that something bad was about to happen" as an excuse for wiping collective posteriors with the Bill of Rights. Even if the guy had been involved in this home invasion ring, whatever happened to surveillance, wiretapping, or picking him up for questioning when he was leaving the house for work? Is the only tactic left to the police to go in with automatic weapons?

[Seamus]

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that, because the cops suspected Guerena was involved in a home invasion ring, they carried out a perfect imitation of a home invasion?

[John]

This case is a classic example Dunphy. I don't know that the guy who was killed is an angel. He may very well be a criminal. But because the cops went in like armed baboons and kicked the guy's door down and shot him they have made him a martyr. Why the fuck couldn't they just have knocked and given him a chance to let them in?

[rather]

John, do you count 2 cameras on the top of their heads? Or, is it something else?
http://azstarnet.com/online/vi.....002e0.html

[John]

Sorry the vid is blocked where I am. Can't look rather

[Wind Rider]

to give you gredit, dunphy, the acknowledgement that the Drug War is a source of way too much gasoline being poured on an out of control bad policy approach is heartening. The symptoms of that cancerous disease, however, will linger for some time after such a galactically stupid approach is discontinued.

[dunphy]

um, yes. for the 100th time. i would like the drug war to end now. and it should. and that is ENTIRELY in the hands of legislators.

note : this warrant wasn't about the drug war. it was about PC for home invasion robbery

[Troy]

Dunphy, first, thanks for admitting the WOD is bullshit. Here is my beef...as someone with an informed opinion as a former prosecutor and former defense attorney. Cops have discretion. There is way more law than they can possibly enforce. Which law they decide to enforce, like it or not, is a value judgment. Cops could sit at a corner with a stop and write tickets all day long for people who don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. That is, after all, against the law.
When my house got broglarized. Law enforcements investigation was all of 30 fucking minutes. To do a real investigation, would have required time and effort. And cops, well they are just too fucking lazy. After all the work, they still might have found the culprit. Well that just wouldn't look good on the stats sheet now would it? How can you justify all that work if your not going to get results?
But drug crimes. Those is easy pickings. Those is the low hanging fruit. Those arrest make it look like they are doing something. Well bro, getting burglarized made me feel violated, made me feel scared. I was, like, and actual fucking victim who lost something.
So this is why I hate cops. They have some fucked up morals. If they had any sense of fucking humanity, they would choose to exercise their discretion and ingore fucked up laws... just like we expected dachau guards to do. But cops are lazy and they pick the low hanging fruit. They act like bullies, shoot dogs, and cause a great deal of collater damage in their zeal to prosecute a war against thier FELLOW citizens. So yeah, fuck them.

[dunphy]

of course we have discretion. none of the guys i work with would ever make a misdemeanor mj arrest, unless the guy was a major shitbag that needed to go to jail.

as for the rest of your "cops are bullies" crap etc. that's not my experience

my experience is that most are conscientious, care about helping people, and simply aren't as you paint them

the major problems i see are
1) laziness
2) cowardice

the latter is COMPLETELY unacceptable

fwiw, cops are to a large extent TRAINED to be cowards. heck, it took columbine to change training policies on "just wait for SWAT"

those guys were fucking cowards

[Mensan]

dunphy, how do you know what the warrant was about? Everything I've read says that the SO had the warrant sealed once people started asking questions, and they won't realease any more information about it. The only information I've seen that has been released about it was that it did not name Guerena. Additionally, the SO originally said the warrant was for drugs, but then changed their story to it being about a home invasion crew.

Have you seen the warrant? If so, please enlighten us as to what it specified they were actually looking for.

[daveInAustin]

According to Storie, the attorney for the SWAT officers, they found everything they were looking for. One inconsistency is that they didn't find any drugs, but the cops in the post-shooting interviews said that they were worried that the occupants would try to destroy any pot inside.
Sure makes it seem like they substituted the use of force for more traditional investigating techniques.

[dunphy]

i haven't seen the warrant affidavit and have asked for it. i have heard several articles refer to the warrant being in relation to home invasion robbery ring, and not drugs

[Cheeseburger]

Not unless it is also the death penalty for shooting a 7-11 clerk while he is on the job or a cab driver or any other citizen. Assaulting any government employee should be treated exactly like assaulting an ordinary citizen. No special classes of people who are "worth more".

[John]

Yes, it is called felony murder. And it should be ruthlessly enforced. No shooting the witnesses either.

[Troy]

if the former, it's tragic, but lawful. if the latter, they deserve to be prosecuted.

Fuck, I hate to Godwin, but damn this just calls for it... You see folks, if you murder people under the color of law, it is OK. So why the fuck did we chase down all those Dachau guards?

[dunphy]

you can beg the question all you want, but if it's the former, it is not - by definition murder

justifiable homicide is not murder.

murder is murder.

cops who commit murder should be tried for murder

[Fist of Etiquette]

As Balko has pointed out many times, using SWAT like this means police are introducing violence to a peaceful situation.

Protecting themselves in that violent situation of their own creation is not self-defense.

[Fatty Bolger]

Exactly. There's something seriously wrong with shooting a man in his own house, simply because he has a weapon in his hand after you violently knocked his fucking door down with little or no notice.

I'm not a cop hater like some on here, by any means. But this shit has got to stop.

[Wind Rider]

Yep, hate the game, not the players. Well, ok, hate all ya want on the pinheads that really, really insist on keeping the game going as is. I place the responsibility for the body count of LEO's killed and innocent civilians gunned down squarely on their pompous and moronic heads. This country is bleeding all over the place, primarily because of some folks really fucked up imaginary dragons.

[John]

What if they had walked up and knocked on the door and given the guy a reasonable opportunity to open up? What is the worst thing that could have happened?

[MNG]

The conservative majority in the SCOTUS in Hudson blessed the results of these no knock entries.

[John]

And they were wrong. Scalia, Alito, Kennedy, Thomas and Roberts live in a fantasy world when it comes to the police. They will get some things write on criminal law if it relates to a trial. But since they are members of the con law priesthood and have no real experience dealing with LE, they are completely out to lunch when it comes to the 4th Amendment.

[JD the Elder]

According to the pigs and their allies, he could have destroyed evidence. How one destroys any evidence larger or more solid than a postcard in the space of 30 seconds or so, I have no idea, but police chiefs, mayors, DAs, etc. claim it could happen and is apparently the worst imaginable thing that could happen.

How they think tells you a lot, actually: Innocent people are sometimes killed; this is not considered reason to stop SWAT raids on nonviolent offenders. Evidence might be destroyed; this is considered reason why SWAT teams must conduct no-knock raids. All you can conclude is that they honestly think it's more important that a single offender not get the chance to destroy evidence than it is that innocent people die at the hands of the police.

[JD]

How one destroys any evidence larger or more solid than a postcard in the space of 30 seconds or so, I have no idea

The most damning evidence that the lawyer for the shooters has come out with was that he had guns and body armor in his house. If they hadn't come in quickly, he would have had a chance to flush those down the toilet.

[db]

Dunphy,

It doesn't take "prejudice" to see that the very short time frame of the attack serves to increase the confusion of all involved, especially for the people inside the house. Tell you what; have a friend go outside your house while you stand inside, preferably some medium distance from the door, and have them shout as loud as they can, "Police, search warrant, open the door," and honestly see if you can understand them. I know I have a difficult time hearing simple things shouted to me through open windows at home.

My point is that no one can reasonably be expected to respond rationally to a situation where they are unexpectedly placed on the defensive in their own home by a gang of unidentified thugs breaking down their door. I say "unidentified" because no matter how many times someone shouts "police," until I read their badge number and see their official ID, the uniform means nothing. The BS that the cops' lawyer is spouting about "home invasion squads" using police uniforms to facilitate their crimes should be enough to make anyone immediately suspicious of a purported law enforcement officer. Not shoot-em-dead suspicious, but suspicious enough to demand identification and a warrant.
And the no-knock warrants have to stop. By far they just seem to cause more trouble than they're worth.

[Radley Balko]

it wasn't a conventional warrant, both a judge and prosecutor based on info in the affidavit, approved the warrant to be a no-knock. so, the time they took before breach must be understood in the context of the orders from the judge, which is what a warrant is.

Judges are rubber stamps for these warrants. I wish they weren't. But it's blame shifting and inaccurate to say the judge "ordered" a no-knock. How many times in your career did a judge decline a search warrant request? The few studies I've seen indicate it's rare. As in, well under 1 percent.

Second, where did you read that the warrant was for a no-knock? The PCSD so far has refused to release the warrants or the affidavits.

[Cyto]

But it's blame shifting and inaccurate to say the judge "ordered" a no-knock.

Right... it is the police and prosecutors who ask for a particular warrant. They swear out that the situation is violent and volatile and requires a no-knock warrant.

Are we really going to insinuate that somewhere there actually was a prosecutor who went before a judge to get a search warrant and said "nah, your Honor... we just need a regular warrant" and then the judge says "Denied! I'm ordering that you execute this warrant I'm issuing as a no-knock raid!"

I realize that the judge's name goes on the warrant and he's supposed to be there as a check on police power, but let's be realistic. If the police come to a prosecutor and want to search a house, he's going to pursue their request unless it is way, way, way out of bounds. And the same goes for the judge... you've got to be a screw-up to get a warrant denied. And even then you just go correct whatever the judge found deficient or go find another judge.

How hard is it for police to get a warrant on the side of the road when the answer to "may I search the vehicle" is no? "I smelled something" is enough to get that warrant. "Suspect was shifty, wouldn't make eye contact. Got nervous when I looked in the back". How hard is that to say?

It isn't only a rubber stamp, it is one of those new self-inking rubber stamps.

[daveInAustin]

I would hope that judges look at this tape and start giving the requests for search warrants more scrutiny. There is also the question of exactly what the police told the judge when they requested the search warrant. If the police gave any misinformation during the request, is it the judges responsibility to figure that out? Storie mentioned a "history of violence". Did someone tell the judge that there was a history of violence at the house or with the occupants of the house?

[dunphy]

this is utter rubbish. at least in my jurisdiction, it takes a LOT to get a judge to issue a no-knock warrant. i've been on scores of warrant entries. no-knocks were very very rare.

and i stand corrected that the warrant was no-knock. i am not sure it was .

one article said the sheriff office denied it was.

and *if* judges were rubber stamps (and ime they are not), then that's a big problem with judges.

but i notice cops get the grief here. not judges.

judges presumably usually have far more schooling in case law, etc and should be held to a higher standard. that's why, generally speaking, cops are supposed to get a warrant to do x

[Ballchinian]

and *if* judges were rubber stamps (and ime they are not), then that's a big problem with judges.

It's also a big problem with cops, who are presumably ASKING for the no-knocks in the first place.

Warrant applications don't materialize out of thin air. The magistrate is there as a check on police overreach, but the fact that he fucks up and rubber-stamps the application doesn't exculpate the assholes who applied for the warrant in the first place.

[Ray]

Maybe one to three shots were justified. Not fucking seventy. And not the fucking jackwagon who shoves his arm in the middle of the fray with his pistol and starts blasting like he's going to get a medal for emptying his magazine 'in the line of duty'. Fuck these pigs, this man did nothing wrong exept be skeptical of who was bashing in his front door.

[Crackers Boy]

Dunphy - "Pot calling the kettle black"? The SWAT team assumed the guy in the house was "guilty until proven innocent". So much so that they went ahead and executed him.

CB

[dunphy]

no, they didn't

guilt is a legal determination

firing your weapon is not because you think somebody is or isn't guilty. that's entirely meaningless

[TrickyVic]

""with identifying yellow notices all over their uniforms.""

Which can't be seen through a door.

[TrickyVic]

""also, irrc, this warrant was AUTHORIZED "NO KNOCK"... so the whole announcing etc.""

Citation?

You are assuming it was a no-knock. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I'm not a Dunphy hater like some, but I am curious as to why you are willing to assume things that support their actions, yet take a agnostic stance on things that put them in bad light?

[dunphy]

i'll stand corrected on this. i have seen some reports say it was no knock, others say it wasn't etc.

fwiw, they may have been saying the cops ACTED like it was no-knock, not that it was actually authorized no knock

if so, my bad

[Cyto]

Dunphy:

The point isn't what the guy standing in the door saw at that exact second that lead him to fire. Once you drop him in that location with that training and that mission statement, suddenly seeing someone in front of him holding a rifle is predictably going to cause him to fire in at least some percentage of cases, even if he should yell "police, drop it" first.

The point is that by putting him in that location in that manner with that training at that particular moment in time, the police department caused the death of a citizen they were sworn to protect. Until seconds before his death he was asleep - not a threat to anyone nor doing anything illegal at that moment. The circumstances that caused his death were 100% created by the police and the result was quite predictable, if not inevitable. It is just a matter roulette to determine which of these situations result in death.

The people who decided to use these tactics, those who approved and supervised this raid, these officials are fully responsible for this man's death.

Additionally, the sudden outbreak of caution once they thought they had encountered an armed opponent is somewhat chilling. They managed to enter and drag the wife and son out of the house, but somehow they couldn't see the dying man directly adjacent to her without resorting to a robot camera almost an hour later. Both the planning and the post-raid management show a callous disregard for human life (other than the lives of the officers).

[Joe M]

Okay, so cops innocent until proven guilty, but dead guy guilty until, well, no, just guilty. And dead.

[dunphy]

oh, and does ANYBODY have a link to the search warrant affidavit for this warrant? that would be immensely helpful

[rather]

The search warrant and related documents pertaining to the case have been sealed by a judge.
http://open.salon.com/blog/xyl.....ing_update

Still the case, I believe

[Wind Rider]

dunphy, you're on a fools errand to try and defend this bunch of unprofessional, poorly trained, and panic ridden bunch of testosterone laden monkey boys. Further, making broad defense of a horribly misguided and overjealous escalatory tactic that is costing both civilian AND LEO lives is simply self serving.

[Wind Rider]

Oh, and if you'd care to go tit-for-tat about everything tactically FUCKED UP about the action on the video, g'head. They didn't act like trained pros, they acted like giggly teenage girls all trying to shove their way into a fucking Beiber concert. NONE of those morons should have been on-axis with the goddamned door. The only mini-Rambos in even close to a covered, defensive position was the guy that shot this particular footage, and only because he was still in one of their trucks.

And I'm still condemning them for fucking panicking in the midst of it all, with that panic, probably initially by one of them, cascading into the rest of them, none of whom it seems kept their cool or recognized that it was not the perp that fired first, but one of his buddies. And that fucking bouncing twit jumping around firing his sidearm from an elevated angle while he scooted around is just icing on the whole shit cake.

Based on this video of these assholes (don't get touchy, I think EVERYONE is an asshole), Pima County AZ is one place I will NEVER willingly set foot, if this is the kind of shit they're proud of doing. Oh, hell, even if they are hugely ashamed. I really don't give a fuck. They're just too goddamned fucking stupid to even risk giving them an opportunity to pull a train on a pooch, because they obviously do so with gusto.

[dunphy]

i have never defended their tactics in this warrant. please point out where i did. just from this video, it is clear there are a lot of things they should have done, but didn't

as i have pointed out

[dunphy]

i didn't make broad defense of this shooting. i have stated, repeatedly, i do not know if this was or wasn't a justified shoot

[?]

??|5.27.11 @ 3:07AM

You can have that, but I don't recommend it.

[rather]

http://www.kpho.com/local-vide.....id=4712167

The widow is very credible

[-]

dunphy|5.27.11 @ 4:00AM|#
jeez, the ignorance here is astounding

It has always been thus.

[Wind Rider]

Dunphy gives this a pass as an 'authorized no knock warrant'.

Such an instrument is the most egregiously over-abused thing in our country today.

The ONLY situation that comes to mind as a justification for such a tactic is in a no-win hostage situation, where the life of another human is no shit, beyond reasonable doubt, in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death without an active and dynamic intervention. Anything short of that FAILS to rise to the level compelling the placement of lives in harms way of one's own manufacture.

No, this doesn't make the job of being a cop any easier. But then the whole fucking point isn't the convenience and mental comfort zone of those who supposedly answered a higher calling to protect their fellow man.

Bean count all you care to - simple fact of the matter is that when the most violent confrontations we routinely witness or read about in this country today are POLICE initiated, then we, my friends, have arrived at a very, very, very fucked up place.

[TrickyVic]

""Dunphy gives this a pass as an 'authorized no knock warrant'.

Such an instrument is the most egregiously over-abused thing in our country today."""

But legal. That's why Dunphy gives it a pass. If you have a problem with no-knock warrants, you have a problem with the law, and those who passed it.

[Cyto]

If you have a problem with no-knock warrants, you have a problem with the law, and those who passed it.

Yes, yes I do.

And with the supervisors/commanders who plan and implement it.

For the guy who happens to be at the bottom of that pyramid and is forced to decide within 1-2 seconds if he should fire his weapon at someone in their own home... well, perhaps some, but not so much. People make mistakes. It is the job of the executives above their level to make sure the situations where their mistakes are easy to make and fatal are extremely limited.

[dunphy]

i have LOTS of problems with the law. the drug war. the war on domestic violence. the overuse of SWAT. the overuse of no-knock. those are points i have made numerous times

note that the law COULD be changed. there are these things called "legislators". they make and change laws.

hth

[dunphy]

except that is, as usual, a lie.

i have said repeatedly that i think no-knock warrants should require a VERY high level of justification AND that they are overused.

but again, lies in pursuit of bigotry are common

[MNG]

This is yet another tragedy.

I would like to ask the people I debated with the other day about the right to resist illegal police entry how that right would have helped this poor man. That was my point in our debate, if we want to stop the police from these heavy handed and all too often deadly home invasions a 'right to resist', while making people feel more manly in some abstract way, is not going to help anyone.

Once again I offer making changes that make it easier to bring and win suits against police for illegal entry and civilian review boards that can review and punish police for such entries. It may not help anyone's cowboy fantasies, but it would do more to deter cops than this right to resist.

[Fatty Bolger]

I'm not sure you understand the situation. The right to resist means that if somebody enters your home illegally (police or otherwise) and you attempt to defend yourself, you should not be subject to prosecution for your act of self defense. That's it.

[MNG]

Fatty

You're smarter than many of the folks I debated this with the other day who seemed to feel a right to resist would empower people to prevent the police from coming in when they wanted to. My point is that it will not do this. Getting their ass sued or fired for illegal entry would.

Nearly everyone with a confrontation with police think they are withing their rights and the police can not legally enter or arrest them, and they are all too often wrong (as case law judges it), so a right to resist is simply going to embolden a lot of people to get arrested and shot.

[asdf]

I fucking love the drug war. SEEMS TOTALLY WORTH IT TO ME.

[dunphy]

did this warrant have anything to do with the drug war?

fwiw, i am against the drug war. i have seen no evidence this warrant was even drug related

[Mensan]

The PCSD has said it was part of a drug traffiking investigation. One officer who was outside of the house during the shooting said that they "were briefed before that the muscle of the DTO (drug trafficking organization) was at this house."

[JW]

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK.

This is what passes for Special Weapons and Tactics now? Packs of trigger happy morons who panic and forget all of their training when a big, scary man appears IN HIS OWN HOME holding a weapon in response to someone breaking his door down? 71 shots? You've got to be shitting me.

Fucking pants shitting pussies.

May they burn in hell.

Amen, but I wouldn't mind if they started early.

[Spoonman.]

The fuckers say "Bang Bang Bang" before hitting the door.

They were planning on murdering him.

[dunphy]

actually, they very well may have been referring to a flashbang. that was my first thought i had when i heard that

[AlmightyJB]

Domestic Para-military Force would be more apt than Police. The job of the police was to protect and serve. The job of these guy's is to wage war against the citizens.

[Lyle]

How many of the cops were veterans?

[Old Soldier]

None I hope. If any of the douche-bags in the front were Marines or Soldiers, I would spit on them. That kind of cowardice and incompetence isn't tolerated.

[IceTrey]

The cops will probably all go on totally disability from PTSD.

[Copper]

Wonder who the dead guy pissed off. Or are SWAT teams usually just killing people for fun?

This proves one thing: That you can probably say, 'No, let's see the warrant' or, 'No, I don't think so officer'. And they will shoot you. And go to work the next day and probably get a bonus.

America's Domestic Army much?

[Thomas]

Talk about overkill.

[Mr. Mark]

Even if I were younger and looking for a job, I could not possibly imagine seeking employment as a police officer of any sort. No way, no how. What a corrupt, disgusting, cowardly profession it has become. It has gone from a one-time respectable role of honor to a filthy cesspool of slime.

[SWAT]

I have been involved in well over a hundred SWAT search warrants and most of them were dynamic entries.Now I don't know the particulars of this entry, but if the warrant was for armed robbery, why didn't they conduct a surround and callout? There is little reason to conduct an entry into the residence. Surround the house and announce via PA system that the occupants must exit the residence. I hate to second guess, but I must here. I'll end it with this statement: If this man was in fact invovled in armed robberies then he got what he deserved.

[Scatologist]

Everything was completely legal. Go back to bed and leave your wallet where the government agents can get to it. Oh yeah, they already have that. Thank you Congress, Senate and Mr. President.