The Party of Dissolution
I missed this poll when it came out last month year:
One in five American adults - 22% - believe that any state or region has the right to "peaceably secede from the United States and become an independent republic," a new Middlebury Institute/Zogby International telephone poll shows….
[B]acking was strongest among younger adults, as 40% among those age 18 to 24 and 24% among those age 25 to 34 agreed states and regions have secession rights.
Broken down by race, the highest percentage agreeing with the right to secede was among Hispanics (43%) and African-Americans (40%). Among white respondents, 17% said states or regions should have the right to peaceably secede.
Politically, liberal thinkers were much more likely to favor the right to secession for states and regions, as 32% of mainline liberals agreed with the concept. Among the very liberal the support was only slightly less enthusiastic - 28% said they favored such a right. Meanwhile, just 17% of mainline conservatives thought it should exist as an option for states or regions of the nation.
Asked whether they would support a secessionist movement in their own state, 18% said they would, with those in the South most likely to say they would back such an effort.
It's Zogby, so caveat lector, but still…those numbers are rather higher than I would have guessed. Also notable: A full 44 percent of the respondents agreed that "the United States' system is broken and cannot be fixed by traditional two-party politics and elections."
Update: Stupid me, I misread the date—the poll is from July 2008, not July 2009. I suspect the liberal secessionists are less eager to exit the union today. That's not to say the appeal of secession has declined for everyone, though: For a more recent Zogby survey on the subject, go here.
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Broken down by race, the highest percentage agreeing with the right to secede was among Hispanics (43%) and African-Americans (40%).
Ummmm... that didn't work real well for the latter last time.
I favor the right of secession, but whether or not I wanted to be in the seceding state depends on the state. I live in NY, but if NY wanted to secede I'd probably move because we're an earthquake away from being just like CA in political suckery. If Montana wanted to secede, I might move to it.
Those liberals would be scare-mongered out of their beliefs the minute it looked even remotely likely.
Although, this certainly doesn't mean that those respondents were libertarians. Some of them probably think that the system is broken because they still can't pass single-payer health care.
this certainly doesn't mean that those respondents were libertarians
It certainly doesn't. Reflects an awful lot of cynicism about the system, though.
is broken and cannot be fixed by traditional two-party politics and elections
Exactly, John Thacker. They could also be thinking that the two-party system is broken. If we only had the Dems or GOP then everything would be hunky-dory.
How about states breaking in two? I favor the 9 downstate counties leaving Upstate NY to ourselves. VT left 200 years ago. It's our turn.
Distrust and disgust of our government is widespread, even among those who want the government to do stuff. We're psychotic that way.
I have wondered why the LP and its fellow travelers haven't focused more exclusively on this issue. Drop all the specifics and just run on the idea that unfettered government is too dangerous to us in a politically diverse variety of ways. It's clear that neither the Democratic or the Republican leadership want anything more than perpetual and complete power to do whatever they want to do.
"Broken down by race, the highest percentage agreeing with the right to secede was among Hispanics (43%)"
Hee, hee, hee.
The great plains states can go it alone and become the agrarian paradise that Jefferson longed for.
"Broken down by race, the highest percentage agreeing with the right to secede was among Hispanics (43%)"
Aztlan, anybody?
Viva La Raza!
That 44% number doesn't mean a whole lot, since that is fairly close to the percentage of people that consistently don't vote.
Well, Joe, maybe they're starting to think about voting... with their feet.
I can dream. Still hoping to find some Indian in my ancestry so's i can move to Lakota Oyate...
Sure. But I bet that there are more people who are cynical because of LoneWacko-type reasons, believing that all the politicians are too soft on immigrants, illegal and otherwise, than would truly agree with a libertarian platform. (As opposed to "libertarian except on my pet issues.")
I realize that libertarians like to cheer nonconformists and cynics of all stripes, but encouraging extremists you don't agree with tends to work out about as well as working with the Ayatollahs did for the Iranian Communists. Similarly, libertarian expectations of "after the overreach, then revolution and libertarian utopia!" are as realistic as progressive dreams of progressive utopia after GWB's presidency failed, or of the German Communists thinking that they'd take over after the Nazis inevitably failed.
What percentages think that any state or region has the right to peaceably secede from the United *Nations*?
Only 44%? There's obviously still plenty of dummies out there.
I need to learn some oratory skills and turn that 44% into an army. I'll need a group to scapegoat, too - Canadians, maybe?
Hey, I'm not the biggest buddy of state's rights, but this poll doesn't suprise me. There is an inherent moral logic to secession. When parts of nations like the Balkans declare independence my first thought is always "yeah sure, why in the world would the rest of that nation be justified in making the section come back when they clearly don't want to? WTF?"
""Broken down by race, the highest percentage agreeing with the right to secede was among Hispanics (43%)"
Paging Lonewhacko
One in five American adults - 22% - believe that any state or region has the right to "peaceably secede from the United States and become an independent republic," a new Middlebury Institute/Zogby International telephone poll shows....
So only 22% of Americans believe in the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence?
Any poll results on the other sentences?
I don't really think a poll is meaningful when 22% of people say anything. 20% of people believe in almost any crazy or stupid thing. 21% of Americans can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map.
How about states breaking in two? I favor the 9 downstate counties leaving Upstate NY to ourselves. VT left 200 years ago. It's our turn.
Works for me. I'm sick of my tax dollars subsidizing upstaters and douches in Albany deciding whether or not whether or not the city can implement congestion charging.
And I'm sick of the city dominating the state legislature, making it virtually impossible to (say) get rid of the state assault weapon ban. Splitting Westchester-and-south into its own state seems like it would be a win for both resulting entities.
The right of a state to secede is irrelevant, the plain facts are, that if a state or states attempts to secede, the federal government will bring them back through the use of military power. I think that has been established.
Works for me. I'm sick of my tax dollars subsidizing upstaters and douches in Albany deciding whether or not whether or not the city can implement congestion charging.
How many statewide offices are held by upstaters again? Until Hillebrand was appointed Senator, it was all people from south of the Catskills. So please don't blame upstate.
And you wouldn't have to be subsidizing upstate if a business opening in Buffalo didn't have to operate under a tax and regulation regime designed for NYC, which has much less of a problem attracting business for other reasons.
The poll you linked to is actually from July 2008. so it's a year and a month old, not a month old as you imply in the first sentence.
However, it seems that Zogby has asked the question again more recently, and a higher percentage (35%) now agree that states/regions have the right to peaceably secede.
http://www.zogby.com/blog2/index.php/2009/08/09/a-secession-question/
Wait a minute: the percentage favoring secession is mostly Southern and mostly black? Who would have thought that secession would one day unite the descendants of slaves and the descendants of slaveholders. It brings a tear to the eye.
Jane: Whoops! I'll post an update.
Jesse:
When you do post the update, you can note that, unsurprisingly, it has switched around and now Republicans and conservatives are more likely to support secession instead of liberals.
The loathing is certainly mutual. They're not even "culturally" alike. Upstate beyond Albany or so is really the Midwest with a little Appalachia thrown in.
I'd like for the states to secede from DC.
"The right of a state to secede is irrelevant, the plain facts are, that if a state or states attempts to secede, the federal government will bring them back through the use of military power. I think that has been established."
So you're saying the first action after secession is to get control of all former US nukes on their territory, and point a few at Washington.
Only 22% favor self-government? Were they asleep in US history class, or something? The US was founded on the right of secession. Why should any group of people be subjugated by some larger group? Why should any individual, for that matter?
he right of a state to secede is irrelevant, the plain facts are, that if a state or states attempts to secede, the federal government will bring them back through the use of military power. I think that has been established.
No, it was just a single data point, now over a century old.
In my realm, there will be no seccession. Rule by the gun, sword, and flagrum will ensure that. There will be order im my kingdom . . . there will be order.
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . .
See the rest on my killer new blog, TJ's Rad Ideas!
Isn't the real news here that four out of every five people don't believe states have the right to secede peacefully? I'd like to know what their legal, moral or other basis is for believing that.
Actually, shouldn't Reason be asking people people this question, then posting the answers on YouTube?
And if any of you cretins respond, the responses will likely be painful titty twisters and tired your-mama jokes, as libertarians reveal their juvenile prankishness and toss their pert, girlish heads with heartbreaking insouciance.
You know what? Screw the Civil War as legal precedent. When secession was a legally respected doctrine, a right that was generally understood and recognized as central to a free society, the federal government didn't fuck with us so much.
The Declaration of Independence is little more than a legal brief explaining why free people have the right to secede from a tyrannical government. Even if the tyranny is far less than Nazi-like.
Jefferson Davis was imprisoned after the fall of the Confederacy for nearly 2 years while the Feds tried to figure out WHAT to charge him with.
The end result?
They didn't charge with him with anything. Because doing so would have required a trial. Where SECESSION would be put on trial. And the Fed was scared to death of that being deliberated in a courtroom.
He was released after a "mock up" bail hearing.
Just one of the many things left out of our children's history books when it comes to history in the "north verus south" era.