Foreign Policy Mag Ranks The Least Free Places on Earth

The winners (losers) include North Korea, Burma, Equitorial Guinea, and Libya.

Whole dismal list here.

Comments

[sage]

I see the occupied territories are not on that list. What, did Michael Moynihan write it?

[jtuf]

No Sage, they're right here:

Separatist South Ossetia touched off a brutal war between Georgia and Russia in August 2008 that killed hundreds and displaced thousands of people. Despite international criticism, Moscow recognized the independence of South Ossetia from Georgia and proceeded with a political and economic takeover. After the war, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity replaced most of his cabinet with officials from Russia, and Russian forces barred ethnic Ossetians from entering Georgia. Most Ossetians are banned from taking part in elections. After the war's end, the women above visit the building where they used to work.

[X]

WOULD YOU RATHER LIVE IN SOUTH OSSETIA

OR IN GAZA

[Art-P.O.G.]

Hmm...I had no idea before that Eritrea, Equitorial Guinea, Chad and Belarus were so bad.

[shriek]

The USA would have made that list if that christfag fucktard Bush was still in power.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Or Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan for that matter. Kazakhstan might be the best -stan in the region.

[jtuf]

X, Gaza has not been occupied for years. However, you do bring up a good point. Living under Hamas's rule is aguably worse than living under Russian rule.

[WWJGD]

Does Somalia really belong on there?

I'm not trying to argue it's some libertarian/anarchist paradise, I just think that state oppression isn't one of its big problems.

[Art-P.O.G.]

That's a good parody, "shriek". I almost believed that was the real shrike for a second.

Also, I want to hit Mugabe with a brick.

[jtuf]

I only know a little about Kazakhstan, but from what I've read it's a good country.

[Johnny Fivers]

LOL, excellent picks dude, excellent!

RT
http://www.be-anonymous.tk

[X]

jtuf, i was merely previewing MNG's inevitable "contribution" to the discussion.

[X]

Also, I want to hit Mugabe with a brick.

Seconded, as long as it is in the role of a private actor and not as a matter of governmental policy. And also the brick is explosive.

[jtuf]

X, sorry. I've been out of the loop for a while, so I don't get all the inside reference.

[Timon19]

Israeli-occupied territories are 6 on political liberties and 6 on civil (2nd worst for both), for a rating of "Not Free". Palestinian-administered territories are 5 on political liberties and 6 on civil, same overall rating.

So it's not like they're being lauded here. They just don't fall into the "worst of the worst" category.

[Art-P.O.G.]

X,

Of course, on both terms.

[Jim]

We are lucky to be living in the USA where we are more free than anywhere on earth. Let freedom ring!

[brotherben]

my sarcasm detector is braying real loud. Jim?

[Aaron]

jtuf - I suggest you look at a map. Gaza looks pretty occupied to me.
http://overfishing.org/interesting/documents/fisheries_gaza/2007_un_map_gaza_fishingzones.png

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/gaza.gif

[PC]

Some of the are really highly suspect, seems to be more like an intervention wishlist. Take South Ossetia for example:

Political Rights: Due to an increasing lockdown by the Russian authorities, little information about South Ossetia's internal situation was available by year's end...

Civil Liberties: There is currently little information about access to media in South Ossetia. It is assumed that television and radio broadcasts from Georgia have been blocked since the war. Electronic media are
controlled by the state and reflect government positions. The State Committee on Information and Press maintains an English- and Russian-language website that is updated regularly. The South Ossetian Orthodox Church, which is unrecognized by both the Georgian and Russian Orthodox Churches, continues to practice freely...

[Pro Libertate]

Considering the wealth that Rhodesia/Zimbabwe has proven capable of, it's a sad example of what can happen to even a wealthy nation when rule of law and property rights are cast aside for the the joy of corruption.

[Nick]

Somalia is arguably the MOST free country on the planet. How many places allow you to become a pirate?

[domoarrigato]

The inevitable comparisons to the USA-as-oppressive-regime are pretty sad. The point of this is to show what life in a really repressive regime is like. Neither Bush nor Obama come close, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[912DC.org]

"The USA would have made that list if that christfag fucktard Bush was still in power."

Don't worry, shriek. We're climbing.

[Hugh Akston]

I'm not trying to argue it's some libertarian/anarchist paradise, I just think that state oppression isn't one of its big problems.

I don't know about the FP/FH methodology, but it seems to me that "freedom" isn't just a matter of lack of government oppression. It also includes the reasonable expectation of being able to pursue ends without being robbed/raped/blown up in the process, and that the product of one's labor will largely be safe from thieves of either the governmental or amateur variety. A minimal institutional framework (whether formal or informal) seems like a requirement for that aspect of freedom.

Please take note that this is not a "positive/affirmative freedom" argument.

[HeadTater]

What? The US didn't make the list. Oh well, we'll give it a couple more years and we might be able to make an appearance.

shriek doesn't have to wait much longer. Sure, we may have lost that fucktard Bush, but we gained that fucktard Obama. You have to stop looking at things so negatively.

[The Angry Optimist]

oh, here's a good idea, let's hyperventilate about the United States and use overblown rhetoric just to "make" political "points".

*looks at HeadTater*

Jim is correct, brotherben. Perhaps you should readjust your cynic meter rather than your sarcasm one.

[Scott66]

"The inevitable comparisons to the USA-as-oppressive-regime are pretty sad."

In general yes but for some specific groups no. For instance, if you are a father who owes child support and who can no longer make your payments because you lost your job then you may be thrown in jail without a trial. Debtor prisons and lack of due process, sounds pretty oppressive to me.

[libertreee]

The piece on Somalia is interesting. The writers talk about how there is no democratic elections or parties, and how "clan loyalty" is the basis of government. It admits that the government imposed by the US and UN and AU states is corrupt and unpopular.

There is a word for what the Somalis wanted to have, it is called KRITARCHY, or rule by judges.

The Freedom House authors seem to have no concept of this form of governence. That the Somalis would deliberately turn their backs on Western Democracy and institute a new form of a stateless state is beyond their comprehension.

The big difference between Somalia and the other states on the list is that the Somali people deliberately chose this type of non state system. The problems that have ensued are largely due to outside state interventions, not to a centralized dictator like in the other nation states.

[Richard Hoste]

I'll bet Germany has more political prisoners than a few of those nations. France is nowhere near free either. Somebody else mentioned the conspicuous abscence of the Palestinian territories.

For the globalist elites it all comes down to "who, whom." If a government favors the "good" category over the "bad" category you consider the country "free."

Good: minorities that aren't whites (South Africa) or Palestinians, non-European ethnic groups, third world immigrants, homosexuals, feminists, Jews, blacks, Muslim minority in Israel

Bad: Ethnically conscious whites or East Asians, religious believers, critics of the globalist agenda, Muslim minorities in US/Europe

[Richard Hoste]

Those last two good/bad should be switched

Good: Muslim minorities in US/Europe
Bad: Muslim minority in Israel

[The Angry Optimist]

libertree - since when is kritarchy a stateless society? And it wasn't just any ol' judges that they allegedly "wanted" to govern them, it was judges of the Islamic Courts Union, another bloody, violent group of Sharia-law lovers.

Last week, they "cross amputated" four teenagers for stealing cellphones.

So, yet again, Airheaded Anarchists such as yourself insist on soft-pedaling and misrepresenting what's going on in Somalia merely in the interest of advancing what you think is a cogent argument for anarchy. you fail.

[Richard Hoste]

Considering the wealth that Rhodesia/Zimbabwe has proven capable of, it's a sad example of what can happen to even a wealthy nation when rule of law and property rights are cast aside for the the joy of corruption.

It's more of a perfect example of what happens when formerly white run institutions/cities/countries are handed over to blacks.

Zimbabwae's story is the same as that of South Africa

A leading research group in South Africa released the results of a survey where one in four men admitted to having committed rape and nearly half admitted to raping more than one person. The study also drew a correlation between violence and HIV prevalence. When you consider the culture of impunity surrounding violence against women in South Africa, the survey is not surprising in the least. "According to the researchers, many of the study's participants appeared to see no problem with what they had done."

There's also a website called The Ruins of Detroit.

Anybody else see a pattern?

[The Angry Optimist]

I see you have a pattern of being a racebaiting fuckhead, Dick.

[Pro Libertate]

Somalia is neither evidence for nor against the political state of anarchy. It's merely a collapsed system that hasn't escaped from the resulting chaos.

I hadn't seen a libertarian or anarchist attempt to praise anything about Somalia before today. Rather, it's been leftwingers who don't understand the first thing about libertarianism who like to suggest that Somalia is the natural end result of laissez faire capitalism and"deregulation."

Richard,

I don't think this is a black/white issue. People from the West tend to respect property (to varying degrees), rule of law, and generally don't tolerate rampant corruption. It's easy to see from within that culture the advantages of being the way we are, but from outside, it's obviously not so easy. Besides, the only way things are going to change for the better in Zimbabwe is for people to get fed up enough to be willing to risk everything in a revolt.

[brotherben]

TAO, you should know by now I have a gift for using the wrong words.

also, the comma in your 11:03 post was not necessary.

[The Angry Optimist]

hey, I'm just saying, America still rocks, whatever it's problem. Some of our terminally cynical nihilist brothers around here would be best to keep it in mind.

[The Angry Optimist]

* it's problems.

[Terminally Cynical Nihilist Br]

I'm just saying, America still rocks

Nuh uh!

[Nick]

Yeah, TAO, but America mostly rocks in spite of our government which is what I think most here object to. Our government is greedy like all those other oppressors that are worse, but we citizens have more capacity to feed that greed so we don't get the heavy hand and our officials are smart enough to know to let us keep feeding them rather than lay the heavy hand and face a revolt. ALL politicians are scum.

[WWJGD]

The violent nature of the Islamic groups in Somalia is a consequence of the incursion by Ethiopia and the TFG. The first "revolution" by the ICU was not a bloodbath by any means. It aimed to set up a system of kritarchy (new word for me) that was based on a relaxed form of Muslim law but this was creating a trend toward stability which threatened Ethiopia which saw the neighbor as a regional threat and due to fighting over the Ogaden region (Eastern Ethiopia region populated by eh...90% Somalis). So they cried terrorist, the US came in, started pissing everyone off, the extremists gained power, and now we have Al-Shabaab and pirates. This rambling is a minor point that annoys me about the Somalia discussion.

Also, I saw an article on Mises making some praise-like points about Somalia, and frankly, I'd argue for them.

Somalia isn't a cogent argument for anarchy, but another in the long parade of examples of modern foreign policy failures.

[FrBunny]

* it's problems.

*its problems. 🙂

[J sub D]

Richard Hoste -

Feel free, nay encouraged, to kiss this white Detroiters ass, you bigoted fuckface.
_____________________________________________________
That's it folks. Mom taught me not to talk to fools, drunkards or fuckfaces.

[J sub D]

I'd have placed Saudi Arabia higher on the list. It may be just me, but I'd celebrate seeing the heads of the The House of Saud and co-conspirator Wahabbi clerics displayed on spikes in Riyadh for the crows to dine on.

[The Angry Optimist]

WWJGD - what is wrong with you? The takeover of Mogadishu by the ICU from the clans/tribes wasn't violent? And it is terribly dishonest to classify this in any simplistic terms: during the "rise of" the ICU, there was still multiple spheres of influence including Ethiopia. So why is it permissible for the ICU to be expansionist, violent, aggressive in taking territory and expanding its sphere of influence, but its not acceptable for Ethiopia to do it?

I take your point that we got an AC-130 and the Navy involved, which isn't my preference, but again, stop soft-pedaling what the ICU is, what they believe and they will do. You will get a small Saudi Arabia, you will get a barbaric society a la Afghanistan. Anyone telling you the ICU is "not that bad" if full of shit.

[Richard Hoste]

Pro Libertate,

I appreciate your civilized response. The language here is shocking. I've been on "racist" sites and the readers don't talk that way to people they disagree with.

Dealing with the issue, a good rule of thumb is that a good theory is one that explains what we see in the real world and is simple. (Occam's razor) Noticing that everybody tries to get away from socialist countries and to capitalist ones is why I started out as a libertarian. It was the same reasoning that led me to become a racialist. I found race to be a much better predictor of civilization success and a coherent way to see racial disparities with countries. Not only have blacks never built a successful civilization on their own, even when given opportunities in white countries (in some cases, having been handed over the countries), they still fail miserably- post 60s America, post-apartheid South Africa, Zimbabwae, etc. Even self-selected black immigrants to England and France have high crime rates and other social pathologies.

In J. Philippe Rushton's book Race, Evolution and Behavior, he shows that race differences have been consistent throughout time and are genetically based. Read the link and see if it doesn't make sense.

Culture matters, but even what practices are likely to be adopted by any people depends on the genetic makeup of the population. Unlike blacks, Asians have high IQs, but also have certain traits that make the kinds of civilizations they form different from Western ones. I've written about that here.

Occasionally non-whites can be assimilated, but when the Western gene pool stops being the overwhelming majority we can kiss the civilization it built good bye. Whites have the genes for liberty and individualism. It was the key to their success, but in a globalized word will be their downfall.

[libertymike]

TAO, yeah, there is a lot that is great about America, but, once again, you can't help but criticize others who remind us that the united states is not a paragon of liberty. That is a fact that cannot be spun away by generalized appeals to relativist argumentation.

You have the right to lead the cheering section for the state. Just don't go too heavy on the ad hominem attacks on those who would rather lead the cheering section for liberty.

[The Angry Optimist]

PL - you're not really going to engage Grand Dragon Hoste, are you? I mean, he's way too far gone. A civilized society would ostracize this fool.

[The Angry Optimist]

LM - whatever. Keep calling it AMERIKKKA and get the "cheering section" of three to tell you how awesome you are.

[Marshall Gill]

Richard,

I don't think this is a black/white issue. People from the West tend to respect property (to varying degrees), rule of law, and generally don't tolerate rampant corruption. It's easy to see from within that culture the advantages of being the way we are, but from outside, it's obviously not so easy. Besides, the only way things are going to change for the better in Zimbabwe is for people to get fed up enough to be willing to risk everything in a revolt.

Don't waste your time. When you think of yourself are you a "white" person? I never do. Calling me white to describe me is accurate, in the same sense that calling me 6' tall is. You would also describe me as wearing blue jeans, if I were. In no case would I think that the amount of melanin in my skin was who I am. Any more than the length of my hair is who I am.

A view that is as narrow as Dick's doesn't come from rational thought. Self-denial at a great scale is the only way a person believes that human beings are really different.

How could an "educated" person not have read the words of Thomas Sowell? How could you read one of the most wise people alive today and come to his conclusions?

If you go to Dick's blog,(don't bother)it appears that he actually believes that blacks and Asians and "Whites" have different ancestors. From the couple of blog posts I read, it appears to me that he thinks that we are actually different species.

So, like the Creationists who demand the Earth must be only 6,000 years old, his is a religious belief where rational and even self-evident arguments hold no weight.

So let me be (one of) the first.

Fuck off Lonewhacko Dick!

[Jim]

TAO, yeah, there is a lot that is great about America, but, once again, you can't help but criticize others who remind us that the united states is not a paragon of liberty.

I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free!!!

Let freedom ring!

[J sub D]

Just curious, did anyone bother to actually read the fuckface post at 11:42am?

If so, why?

[The Angry Optimist]

Given that people of all races have succeeded (probably much wealthier, smarter and more successful than Dick, who undoubtedly rolls around in his mom's basement) in America, it must be American philosophy that powers America, not the happenstance of its "whiteness" (which isn't even true of America anyway).

I mean, 100 years ago, people like Dick were talking about the Irish the same way he talks about blacks today.

[Marshall Gill]

Just curious, did anyone bother to actually read the fuckface post at 11:42am?

If so, why?

I didn't, the stuff over at Feministing is at least funny.

[Jim]

Dick is a racist asshole.

[WWJGD]

Compared to the TFG and the ARPCT, I don't see how you can't say the ICU was all that bad. Can't really say much for the TFG after they put a known war criminal in charge of the Mog police. As for the ICU, yes, they've got their divisions, none really different than today's Republicans, but the leaders, at the time, the loudest voices were the moderates. Mog was violent, yes. But their "expansion" across Somalia was not.

Simplifying, yes. Guilty. But the ICU is not the Sharia boogeymen they were made out to be.

[X]

So let me be (one of) the first.

Fuck off Lonewhacko Dick!

Sorry, dude, i deflowered that particular virgin meme yesterday.

[libertymike]

Jim, I see that you have been duly Hannitized.

You must love affirmative action and the racist policies of the federal government, the governments of all 50 states and countless cities and counties.

You must love the confiscatory income tax. You must love the IRS and its legions of locusts. Hey, I bet you just love the regulatory state, the alphabet soup agenices and all of their public sector lifers.

How about the war on drugs? If you love America and believe freedom reigns here, you really must love the hundreds of thousands incarcerated on drug beefs.

[Richard Hoste]

Just curious, did anyone bother to actually read the fuckface

I certainly hope that you're not over 13 years old. On the other hand, I don't know which would be more disturbing to be reminded of-that this language is common among the youth or supposed adults.

If so, why?

So that you may learn something?

[brotherben]

Mr. Hoste, is this you at this link?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nisbett/

[libertymike]

The truth is some people's loyalty is with the nation state and not with liberty. Such people will be relegated to the dust bin of history.

[brotherben]

scratch that question

[The Angry Optimist]

the error you make, LM, is that you lump the people of America in with their government(s). it's laudable to love America and not care for some of the things government does, but you have a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is why it leads to you arguing with me about whether its appropriate to compare North Korea and America(!). A thinking, nuanced person would say "the American government does bad stuff, but knock off the simplistic shit".

[Jim]

How about the war on drugs? If you love America and believe freedom reigns here, you really must love the hundreds of thousands incarcerated on drug beefs.

Freedom doesn't mean you can do anything you want, when it affects others. Drugs are not healthy, and cause crime and violence, which is why they are illegal.

[Knucklehead]

Ooops. Reality check. The crime and violence associated with drugs is a purely a manifestation of their illegality and cultural stigmatization.

As for the harm. They are no worse than booze or cigarettes or many legally prescribed medications, and often safer than many of the herbal folk remedies some people would suggest others to take. Moderation really is the key.

[libertymike]

TAO, to borrow a phrase, there you go again. You attribute to me things that I do not support and you have a tendency to erect some irrelevant strawmen.

First, you know that I have never said anything that could be even remotely construed as (a) favorable to North Korea or (b) that life in North Korea is not much worse than life in these here united states.

Second, do you really think that a person like me has a soft spot for north korea? That I am okay with such unvarnished communism and totalitarianism? That I'm down with detention and re-education camps?

Third, I am not lumping in all americans, or as you phrased it, "the people of Amercia with their government(s)." For one, I do not lump you in with the federal government or the government of the state in which you reside and/or the state in which you are attending law school. For that matter, I do not "lump in" MNG with the federal government.

I have no plans to relocate to Pyongyang.

[Syd Henderson]

It's a little sobering that all these places rank below Iran. Maybe the list was prepared before the recent election.

Russia didn't make it, either, but I didn't really expect it too.

[The Angry Optimist]

My original point, LM, was to HeadTater, advising him that it is absolutely crack-headed to state that the United States will make the list "in a few more years".

you said "once again, you cannot help but criticize others who state that America is NOT a paragon of liberty".

Which I didn't say. Again, this is another one of your Rockwellian hobbyhorses - any time someone says something you think you can remotely sense "jingoism" in, you have to start in with how America isn't free.

Whatever. Argue with yourself.

[Art-P.O.G.]

A view that is as narrow as Dick's doesn't come from rational thought

True. I'm willing to bet that he doesn't know anything about Botswana, let alone Mali or even Senegal.

Actually, this

Whites have the genes for liberty and individualism

is so retarded that...wow.

[Nick]

I read fuckface's 11:42 because I am fascinated by some people's concept of what drives a society or particular group to do what they do. Genetics, of course, determines what one looks like, but not how they'll act. Ergo, fuckface is a dumbass.

[Alberta Libertarian]

// I found race to be a much better predictor of civilization success and a coherent way to see racial disparities with countries. Not only have blacks never built a successful civilization on their own, even when given opportunities in white countries (in some cases, having been handed over the countries), they still fail miserably- post 60s America, post-apartheid South Africa, Zimbabwae, etc. Even self-selected black immigrants to England and France have high crime rates and other social pathologies.//

Botswana?

[Alberta Libertarian]

Just to clarify:

//Botswana was also ranked number 38 in the world, alongside Belgium and Portugal, in this year's overall global ranking of an expanded list of 141 nations. This places Botswana ahead of nine European Union member states - Spain (44), Czech Republic, France, Italy, Greece, Poland and Bulgaria (52), Romania (82) and Slovenia (91).//

Take note that the predominately black Botswana is in superior to many Eastern European nations. I'd like to hear Richard's explaination for that.

[Alberta Libertarian]

The listing was concerning economic freedom. Botswana's economy is doing far better than many other nations in the world.

Either way, it's nice to see the racists out in full force. Stating they're against collectivism and for liberty while spouting racial theories that should have been rid of after Nazi Germany.

[jtuf]

Racial lines and definitions have moved so much in the past 200 years that they've lost all meaning. Darwin divided humans into "civilized", "barbarian", and "savage". Today, we divide people into minority and majority. When my ancestors came to America, scientists would have placed 3/4 of them into the "barbarian" category. Over my grandparents' lifetimes all of those "barbarian" lineages got recategorized as "white/majority". The 1/4 of my ancestry that was called "civilized" is half French-Canadian and half Welsh. So, in the UK, I could qualify for affirmative action on account of my Welsh DNA.

[Robert]

Equatorial Guinea's been a hellhole for a long time. It was just the happenstance of a neighbor's child's finding a funny name, "Fernando Poo", on a map that caused the authors of Illuminatus! to set much of its action there, but it called att'n to the place's horrific suckdom, which continued thru both unsuccessful and succesful overthrows to this day. It'll get another flurry of att'n next year when much of the fictional action of TV mystery serial Lost

[Robert]

Fixed tag to no longer truncate:

Equatorial Guinea's been a hellhole for a long time. It was just the happenstance of a neighbor's child's finding a funny name, "Fernando Poo", on a map that caused the authors of Illuminatus! to set much of its action there, but it called att'n to the place's horrific suckdom, which continued thru both unsuccessful and succesful overthrows to this day. It'll get another flurry of att'n next year when much of the fictional action of TV mystery serial Lost, filmed on Oahu, is revealed to have taken place there, now an island called Bioko.

the genes for liberty and individualism

It's hard for me to imagine how those would operate. However, it would be fatuous to think there are no genetic influences on human behavior, just as there obviously are on the behavior of other animals. It would not surprise me to see statistically and practically significant correlations, some of which would turn out to be in a causal relationship, between alleles and actions conducive or inimical to human liberty, and it would also not surprise me to see some of those correlated with morphologic phenotypes we can call racial. I don't see why racial tendencies in human liberty have to be dismissed a priori; the research could be very interesting.

[Robert]

Huh. Fix one tag, mess up another.

[Richard Hoste]

It's hard for me to imagine how those would operate. However, it would be fatuous to think there are no genetic influences on human behavior, just as there obviously are on the behavior of other animals. It would not surprise me to see statistically and practically significant correlations, some of which would turn out to be in a causal relationship, between alleles and actions conducive or inimical to human liberty, and it would also not surprise me to see some of those correlated with morphologic phenotypes we can call racial. I don't see why racial tendencies in human liberty have to be dismissed a priori; the research could be very interesting.

We know that things like introversion/extroversion and political opinions are significantly determined by genes (read Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate). Most scholars shy away from making generalizations about groups for obvious reasons.

The most politically incorrect professor who studies these things is Kevin MacDonald, whose paper What Makes Western Culture Unique? argues that the ice age and culture imposed monogamy shaped the genes that built Western civ.

[Richard Hoste]

Take note that the predominately black Botswana is in superior to many Eastern European nations. I'd like to hear Richard's explaination for that.

It says something that your example of a successful black country is one where 25% of the people have AIDS.

Richard Lynn wrote a book called IQ and the Wealth of Nations.

Basically, living standards can be predicted by national IQ. There are some exceptions though. Communism can retard the progress of a high IQ people (ex-Soviet states, North Korea) or a low IQ people can be sitting on a pool of resources and get out of the way of international corporations (Botswana, Arab Gulf States).

That being said, Botswana is a country with only 1.6 million people and they're not that successful. The AIDS rate is typically African. So best case scenario, a small black country can become a second world nation if it's blessed with a huge amount of resources and it'll still have other typically black pathologies. Not too impressive.

[Art-P.O.G.]

I don't see why racial tendencies in human liberty have to be dismissed a priori

Look at European history. Just look at it. And look at Japan's recent history, and tell me if you see any large changes and divergent patterns that defy most any recognizable "tendencies".

Richard Hoste,

It's obvious that someone who sees almost everything through the filter of race sees AIDS as a "typically black pathology". Go die in a fire.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Hey Dick,

- If you think people of African descent inadvertently spoil societies, would you support government-initiated population control of black people to prevent their heightened influence on society from destroying western culture?

- At minimum would you support government-initiated segregation of people of African descent or forced removals from western countries?

If you believe either or both, you ain't no fucking libertarian, just another typical racist collectivist.

If you don't support either, than what is your fucking point, exactly? Being white didn't stop the Nazis or the Soviets from being as bad or worse than the worst African regimes; considering the history of enslavement and conquest of the entirety of Africa, historical whites were the ones who laid the groundwork for the splendid African political system of today via their own examples. See: Apartheid. That does not excuse the actions of the current African regimes by any means nor does it give people of African descent inherent grievances against descendants of whites, but must be factored into the context of why Africa and members of the African diaspora have struggled on so many levels. It's not because of "black" genes - it's because the historical repercussions are still felt and have not been reconciled. Cycles of poverty and oppression are not easy to break generationally - many white people in history more than contributed to this downward spiral in so many regards, however. Your whole thesis about people with black melanin's genetic inability to succeed completely lacks historical context, and is the same reasoning some historical whites used to justify oppressing and enslaving them.

Wait - why am I reasoning with you? Fuck off, dick.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Oh, and my counter-example of a country run by Africans that has succeeded: Barbados, one of the freest and most developed countries on earth and probably preferable from a libertarian standpoint to the United States. 90% of the population are of African descent. The literacy rate is 4th out of 177 countries - well above us dumbfucks in the US down at #17. Take that, you asshole.