"Merit Pay Is An Insult"

Below is a quotation from an NPR teaser for an All Things Considered segment later today on the crumbling public schools of Detroit: 

"I won't even entertain merit pay because merit pay is an insult."

-- Detroit teacher & union member

Sure, it's not in context, but still…. 

Comments

[domoarrigato]

When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no one to blame but the teachers.

[ed]

Oh no she di'n't!

[Mike in PA]

Oh I can't wait for this...

One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools. They are "government" schools.

[Art-P.O.G.]

The mind boggles at how context could make this quote seem reasonable...

[brotherben]

So what to do if you are a teacher and all your little charges are incorrigible due to a complete lack of home trainin'? No, you can't beat the little shitters. But they will certainly hurt your performance.

Merit pay should go hand in hand with real discipline and certain behavioural requirements of the students.

[John]

The problem is that without market forces merit pay schemes are doomed to fail. How do you decide merit pay? For example, I live in alledgedly the best school system in the Washington area. But, the area is rich and full of PHD scientists at NIH and lawyers and other highly educated government bureaucrats. Of course the schools do well. If you are teaching a bunch of kids from stable motivated families that have two IQ parents, it isn't that hard to do well. A bad teacher in a district like that is going to do better than a great one in a district with more challenging students.

I don't see how a bureaucrat or a manager can sort out who is a good teacher and who isn't. Some really good ones could. But, more often than not merit pay will just be a scheme to pay those that go along and get along or kiss the right butt more than who is actually the best teacher.

The sollution is to have school choice. Then the market and the aggregate choices of parents and students gives a metric by which you can judge merit. Good teachers will attract more and better students, thus giving managers a way to evaluate them.

[Xeones]

Yo, fuck the teachers' unions.

[Vouchers for all]

I heard this same teaser on my way into work and nearly wrecked my car. The sense of entitlement is breathtaking.

[Mango Punch]

Just like with a bonus, it is the lack of pay that should be an insult...

[brotherben]

In other news: PETA is planning a march on Talladega this Nascar race weekend. They are protesting a world record attempt for most people in a chicken dance. In all fairness, the attempt is being sponsored by KFC.

sorry for the threadjack

[? Libertarian]

stable motivated families that have two IQ parents

Two IQ? I'm surprised they figured out how to mate.

[the innominate one]

Whether merit pay works well or not depends on how the criteria for the merit pay system are developed and implemented and what the criteria are. At the last college at which I taught, instructors' yearly evaluations were based solely on student evaluations, which aren't exactly objective. Are you surprised to hear that high instructor evaluation scores and mean class grades are highly correlated? Me neither.

[creech]

For teachers with this attitude, paying them minimum wage is an insult to those who pay. And maybe the next teachers' strike should be about the district setting behavioral standards and disciplinary measures instead of "more money."

[ben tej]

John:

It's called baseline data. No one would be going in to evaluate these kids blind (at least I would hope not).

However, I would never expect a government entity to accurately and equitably implement outcome measures in the same way parents would if given greater school choice.

[Obama]

"It's called baseline data. No one would be going in to evaluate these kids blind (at least I would hope not)."

It is not that simple. What baseline data? Test scores? If you do that you just get people teaching to the test. if you don't have tests, where does your data come from?

Moreover, getting a group of really disfunctional kids to improve at all could be harder than getting motivated kids to improve a lot. Give me 40 motivated smart kids and it won't be that hard for their scores to improve a lot over a year. Give me 40 kids who aren't and they might not improve very much despite the best efforts. But by baseline data, the teacher with the best kids still does better.

The sorry truth is that half of the reason our schools fail is because parents don't make their kids work hard. Talk to any teacher and you will hear horror stories about trying to hold kids accountable only to have parents scream bloody murder. The failure of our schools are a societal issue as much as anything else.

[brotherben]

The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the good parents will move their children to the better schools and the Maury parents will not bother. You will end up with some amazingly bad schools that will be shuttered due to NCLB. The correction of the problem has to start in the home, not in school choice.

[Art-P.O.G.]

John,

I agree with your concerns. It's pretty tough for a kid to do well in school if his or her parent(s) (for whatever reason) can't give the student much quality time of their own.

[High Every Body]

Slightly off topic:

Ninth Circuit Court Extends Second Amendment Rights

Pretty sure Reason will get around to covering this sooner or later soon.

[John]

"I agree with your concerns. It's pretty tough for a kid to do well in school if his or her parent(s) (for whatever reason) can't give the student much quality time of their own."

Or they don't hold them responsible and make them work. Even the motivated smart kids are being cheated in a lot of ways. You look at the children of rich successful parents and they really are not being given an education. Instead, they are being taught how to play the game. How to do exactly what the teacher wants. How to do pointless volunteer and community service crap to pad their resumes. Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks or be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a truly educated person. Instead, they are being taught to memorize and think whatever will get you ahead.

[Abdul]

The sorry truth is that half of the reason our schools fail is because parents don't make their kids work hard. Talk to any teacher and you will hear horror stories about trying to hold kids accountable only to have parents scream bloody murder. The failure of our schools are a societal issue as much as anything else.

Of course teachers don't control all the relevant variables in student success. However, the marginal propensity for poor parenting falls relatively equally across schools. Some teachers are able to make a silk purse out some momma's sow's ear. If you pay those teachers a little more, you'll incesntivize whatever they're doing right.

[P Brooks]

Something tells me this person would not be one of the teachers actually *receiving* merit pay.

[mitch]

The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the good parents will move their children to the better schools and the Maury parents will not bother.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The current system hurts the kids of both good and bad parents. A system that rewarded good parenting would at least help some kids that are now suffering in bad schools, and, hey, rewarding good parenting just might encourage good parenting.

[really]

"You will end up with some amazingly bad schools that will be shuttered due to NCLB"

as they should be... that's where the correction really starts. closing the worst schools and firing bad teachers.

[Jozef]

One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools. They are "government" schools.

They are not government "schools". They are government "juvenile detention facilities". From the same NPR this morning, reporting on the Ibuprofen strip search case that's today at the Supreme Court: "The fact that the girl was a honor student and never had any disciplinary problem does not indicate she was following school rules, only that she never got caught, according to the lawyer for the school district." (Paraphrased.)

[Boston]

From the same NPR this morning, reporting on the Ibuprofen strip search case that's today at the Supreme Court: "The fact that the girl was a honor student and never had any disciplinary problem does not indicate she was following school rules, only that she never got caught, according to the lawyer for the school district." (Paraphrased.)

Along those same lines my jaw nearly hit the floor reading a WaPo editorial siding with the school board here.

I mean Fvck. I would have thought my rage level would have subsided after hearing about the case ten times, but alas, it has not.

[Boston]

Bah. School officials, but you get the gist.

[Medic]

"When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no one to blame but the teachers."----

No you have no one to blame but yourself.

Education comes down to the parent.

If you can't take the time to educate your child then you should be on birth control or use a condom.

Don't blame the government for a failing education system.

Blame every single parent who uses the system as a daycare.

While your child might end up flipping burgers; mine will have a chance to get a good college education and doing something worth while with their lives.
No magic worked in our house.

I work 40-45 hrs a week as an RN. And my partner, he works part time from home and spends his day with our child.

We co-op with several other families and have home schooling everyday.

Something you might want to consider.
We take no state assistance, none of us are on UE and we are not putting our children in that backwards brain numbing system you call 'Public education'

-Medic

[P Brooks]

From the WaPo-

The Supreme Court should strike down the lower-court ruling. School officials must have the flexibility to act quickly and decisively to avert all manner of danger. Fear of being sued for making reasonable if controversial judgment calls will only chill these efforts.

I see "danger" has entered the realm of words without meaning.

[phalkor]

Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks or be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a truly educated person. Instead, they are being taught to memorize and think whatever will get you ahead.

lies. or at least out-and-out exaggeration. while it is evidently true that learned ability to "play the game" is what allows advantaged children to keep their advantage that is a silly oversimplification of why children of successful people are successful. Actually it sounds like whining...I digest.

My issue with that statement is it seems to discredit a lot of the good things high school kids do as a ploy to "pad the resume". I used to deride these overacheivers with my slacker friends, but now think there is a twinge of jealousy. I suppose I wanted to be a high-flier as well, just not as much. Kids don't have equal encouragement, ambition, or aptitude. Neither do teachers.

I just wonder how long the current education system can continue to fail. When did it start failing? I don't really know the worst face of government schools because I had a dull childhood where imagination and play were replaced by playing a game to pad my future resume.

This quote is too funny. Government schools really ought not to be the only choice, if this sense of entitlement in the teachers, combined with overall disinterest.

[phalkor]

fucks, I love/hate getting distracted while commenting; turns into a omfg-ramble of blurgle-blargle.

[P Brooks]

Don't blame the government for a failing education system.

If the government did not forcibly stick its greedy paws into my pocket to fund its worthless "education" system, you might have a point.

I have no children, but I am forced to subsidize a system which churns out kids who can barely form a coherent sentence, much less recognize what is a plainly false assertion by a public official.

[John]

"My issue with that statement is it seems to discredit a lot of the good things high school kids do as a ploy to "pad the resume". I used to deride these overacheivers with my slacker friends, but now think there is a twinge of jealousy. I suppose I wanted to be a high-flier as well, just not as much. Kids don't have equal encouragement, ambition, or aptitude. Neither do teachers."

Everything in moderation. Certainly, some work like that is good. But, colleges have stopped looking at ability and look way too much at bullshit. I really don't care if the kid was able to go feed poor children in Panama. But colleges look at that kind of crap, which in turn drives kids to more and more absurd levels of "public service" to get into the top schools. Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These days he would have never gotten in. I can't help but wonder how many geniuses are not getting into the best schools because they don't have the perfect application and didn't do enough bullshit community service.

[domoarrigato]

"When our children grow up to be retarded, we will have no one to blame but the teachers."----

No you have no one to blame but yourself.

Medic goes on to explain that she homeschools. Thereby bolstering my point.

If you can't take the time to educate your child then you should be on birth control or use a condom.

Um, this is pretty stupid. I shouldn't procreate because I would prefer to outsource my childs education for various reasons: specialization, socialization, economies of scale, both parents having a career... The thing that really torques me off about homeschool parents is their smug sense of self satisfaction that they exhibit as they try and push their views onto everyone. Not all of them are like this, but a lot are. Oh, and my sisters were homeschooled.

I wasn't, as my proficiency in science and math exceeded either of my parents ability to teach it by 10th grade.

[domoarrigato]

Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These days he would have never gotten in. I can't help but wonder how many geniuses are not getting into the best schools because they don't have the perfect application and didn't do enough bullshit community service.

I wouldn't worry, John, they don't stop being geniuses because they don't get into MIT. Society may benefit more from their hardship than from educating them expensively.

[P Brooks]

I can't help but wonder how many geniuses are not getting into the best schools because they don't have the perfect application and didn't do enough bullshit community service.

I'm inclined to look at this as a, you know, *feature*.

[When I was at the University of Idaho, I had some extremely good economics professors who actually came and taught their own classes every day]

[brotherben]

The U of I is a good school 'cept the stench in the Kibbie dome from those vandals the last few years.

[New World Dan]

John,

The biggest key is to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Measure how the kids perform relative to their previous year's class rank. Works very well in an elementary setting. In a high school where you might have 1 teacher who teaches all of the geometry classes, there might not be anything to compare her to. But you maybe take a base ranking of her students coming in. It's very possible to create a merit pay system that works, not that I expect anyone to actually do so.

[T]

Don't blame the government for a failing education system.

Why the hell not? Who should I blame, the other organization that sets the rules and runs most of the schools?

[DADIODADDY]

We all have a very different idea of what an "Educated Person" really is, and what our expectation of the publically funded scholl system should be doing. I say let's blow it up and start from scratch and no fucking Ed majors allowed.

[MNG]

When you contract for a job (I realize many of you peons don't contract for a job, you just show up for an interview from the paper and take what's given if they deign to give the job to you, but imagine for a minute ;)) don't you try to get the terms that are not the most cosmically just, but that are best for you? And doesn't the employer have to give on some of these, even though they are not the best for them perhaps?

Well, what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions, do that as a group?

I told my boss on day one I wanted three weeks paid vacation in addition to my paid sick time, or I would simply go to another consulting firm. Surely it wasn't ideal for him to say yes, but he wanted or needed me and I got it. I guess you could write an article on how spoiled I am or something, but it's called bargaining dudes. Or do you think only the employer's interest is great? Or better yet, we should all agree to terms of employment that "further the economic efficiency of society?" WTF?

[MNG]

"Who should I blame"

How about this great non-gvoernmental organization called "families."

[J sub D]

The problem with school choice, as I see it, is that the good parents will move their children to the better schools and the Maury parents will not bother. You will end up with some amazingly bad schools that will be shuttered due to NCLB. The correction of the problem has to start in the home, not in school choice.

Brotherben -
Mandatory parenting classes with random home inspections is clearly the only way to solve this problem.

Has it ever occured to you that there exists some problems that government can't solve, that in the name of freedom, shouldn't even try?

[domoarrigato]

Well, what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions, do that as a group?

Nothing, if the taxpayers actually had a choice. Or if individual parents had the choice to use their tax dollars at the school of their choice instead of the monopoly school that the teachers unions run.

If we were argueing about some other economic issue involving a corporation with monopoly power using it's position to bully other players, you'd be singing a different tune. Teachers unions benefit from a monopoly system. I don't fault them for getting what they can - I fault a broken system that makes it inevitable that the taxpayer will get charged out the nose for crappy product. Now on a personal level, I think teachers union smucks are despicable, because of their smug sense of entitlement. They don't admit that they are milking a broken system - they think they are the righteous underpaid heroes. And most of them are very sub par.

[domoarrigato]

How about this great non-gvoernmental organization called "families."

Teachers LOVE to blame parents. It's hip to do. No one blames teachers, because everyone has a favorite teacher that influenced them yada yada... I know a lot of teachers, and most of them will say the same thing privately: that there are stupid teachers who dont try very hard. Lots of them. In Public Schools.

[brotherben]

J sub D, I wasn't suggesting govt intervention in the home. I was saying, that in my opinion, the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home. With that being a large contributor to success or failure of a school and it's teachers, that school choice would have very negative effects in some areas.

[hmm]

Any thing showing failure is an insult. She is right on the money. Such pay would be an insult to many teachers. A long needed and well deserved insult.

Teachers have a job. Parents have a duty. Two very different things.

[P Brooks]

what the fuck is wrong when unions, or teacher unions, do that as a group?

If the teachers' union was bargaining with an entity which was actually dealing at arm's length, and spending its own money, I would be significantly less concerned.

[P Brooks]

the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home.

You forgot to blame the teevee!

And consumerism.

[MNG]

"Nothing, if the taxpayers actually had a choice."

They do have a choice. They can elect people to bargain for different contracts.

But under any system both bargainers would have to give and get. How do you know this is not something that they would just get? Or would we bitch about anything we have to give. I mean, do you know that teachers don't have to work 12 hour days! My god, those spoilt bastards, it must be a monopoly system or somethng that allows governments to offer them contracts not requiring 12-14 hour days.

I mean, c'mom.

"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home"

[MNG]

the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home

Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?

[P Brooks]

"They do have a choice. They can elect people to bargain for different contracts move to Somalia."

Or colonize the moon.

[Taktix?]

PETA is planning a march on Talladega this Nascar race weekend. They are protesting a world record attempt for most people in a chicken dance. In all fairness, the attempt is being sponsored by KFC.

PETA vs. NASCAR fans?!?

Is this televised? Please, please tell me this is televised...

[PapayaSF]

"How dare they think they can link rewards with performance in schools? Umm, wait...."

[domoarrigato]

the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home

Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?

It's a beautiful system these teachers have, they do a job that makes them immune from criticism, paid by another unnaccountable group from money extracted from a third group. When the results are great, they take all the credit, and ask for pay increases, cuz hey they are doing such a bang up job, right? But when things don't work out, it's not t heir fault: they are underpaid, and anyway, the parents are to blame. Yeah, pretty non-disputable assertion...

[Tony]

I have no children, but I am forced to subsidize a system which churns out kids who can barely form a coherent sentence, much less recognize what is a plainly false assertion by a public official.

Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[brotherben]

domo, so the teachers and the union are responsible for Harris and Klebold? It happened at school. Surely nothing else could have influenced their actions at school?

[Boston]

"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home"

So I would be correct in assuming that you would be in favor of taking away NCLB because it has little to nothing to do with 'parenting in the home.' Because it is be a vast misallocation of resources?

[domoarrigato]

Harris and Klebold

Threadjack?

[domoarrigato]

Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

You might have a point except that private schools that cost half as much get twice the results.

[JB]

One thing though, please stop calling them "public" schools. They are "government" schools.

That's a good point. reason should start that meme. Stupid teachers at stupid government schools. No surprise since government employees are stupid.

[T]

Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Nice try, but no. Look at the per pupil expenditures and tell me we're not spending enough money. DC in particular spends the most money for the least measurable results. It ain't a failure of funding.

[Tony]

You might have a point except that private schools that cost half as much get twice the results.

Even if you didn't pull this directly from your ass, what else would you expect? Private schools don't have to serve everyone. They can be selective and more individually-oriented.

Even so, the difference in performance is not so clear-cut. Our country's students are outperformed worldwide regardless of whether they attend public or private.

[JB]

PETA is protesting people doing a chicken dance?!?!?!

What does it hurt the feelings of the chickens to see people doing their dance?!

God, Obama is making everything more retarded...even the things that couldn't get more retarded.

[Matt Welch Makes Me Sleepy]

"I don't see how a bureaucrat or a manager can sort out who is a good teacher and who isn't. Some really good ones could."

Really? Even as an eighth-grader I could tell who was a good teacher and who wasn't. It's not that tough.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Tony, even with your caveats, I'm not convinced funding is a major culprit in American public ed.

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Short answer: no.

http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm

[R C Dean]

Something tells me this person would not be one of the teachers actually *receiving* merit pay.

What makes you think that, by the time the unions and their sock puppets in school administration get done, every teacher won't be getting merit pay?

I can see it now: "In America, every teacher is above average. Teh Children deserve no less!"

[libertarianjim]

God, Obama is making everything more retarded...even the things that couldn't get more retarded.

It's like the Special Olympics or something.

[Matt Welch Makes Me Sleepy]

"Those kids are not being taught how to think or take risks or be creative or many of the skills that are necessary to be a truly educated person."

Perhaps they are learning that from their high acheiving parents.

[domoarrigato]

Even if you didn't pull this directly from your ass
Nope. my local district is one example, the rest of New Jersey is another.
what else would you expect? Private schools don't have to serve everyone. They can be selective and more individually-oriented.
Wouldn't it be great if every student had access to individually oriented instruction - sounds like I'm winning you over! Yeah, they are selective, because in todays world, the private schools are forced into a niche market (upper crust kids) in order to compete, since their patrons have to have enough money to pay for school twice (once through taxes, obvi). Remove the monopoly, and a plethora of private institutions at different price points will arise spontaneously. Refer thyself to the evidence the Obama administration guiltily covered up on DC's voucher program.

Even so, the difference in performance is not so clear-cut. Our country's students are outperformed worldwide regardless of whether they attend public or private.

Hmm, ok, not sure this is a good metric. isn't the real question, "Do public or private school students perform better compared to the world"?

[Gipper]

"I just wonder how long the current education system can continue to fail. When did it start failing?"

When the Supreme Court forced bussing.

Not because of integration, but because it destroyed the concept of neighborhood schools and their inherent sense of community.

When I was a kid, we all went to the neighborhood school (except for a few Catholics and the like). Parents knew each other. Three or four kids on the block might all be in the band, or choir, etc. There was a real sense of community.

Now kids are bussed all over the city. In fact it's not very likely that Timmy will be able to attend the same school as his best friend next door, because there are lotteries that determine who goes where.

So what we have in my city (majority non-white) spending approximately one hundred million of dollars annually just to shuffle around a bunch of children of color for the sake of an antiquated notion of "integration". It's insane.

[Gipper]

"You forgot to blame the teevee!

And consumerism."

And junk foods made with high fructose corn syrup.

[Gipper]

"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home

Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?"

I work with at-risk kids; you are mistaken.

[Gipper]

"Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?"

Nope.

[brotherben]

gipper, why are they considered "at-risk?"
What work do you do with these children?

[highnumber]

It strikes me as pointless to get worked up about this out-of-context quote. What if the context was that the teacher, due for a raise anyway, was offered the opportunity for a huge raise if he or she transferred into the poorest performing, most violent school in all of Detroit, but the pay raise was to be entirely merit based, determined by the students.

Is it too much to wait a couple of hours to hear the quote within the context of the program before getting worked up about it?

[Kolohe]

Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These days he would have never gotten in.

I'm going to call BS on this one. The 'system' is still very good at finding and elevating geniuses, esp self directed ones like Feynman. A guy with a 700+ math SAT score and evidence of a decent work ethic even in a relatively crappy school system *will* get into MIT.

The system is suboptimal for the median, and actively harms the just below average. But either end of the bell curve are served quite well.

[perilisk]

"So what to do if you are a teacher and all your little charges are incorrigible due to a complete lack of home trainin'? No, you can't beat the little shitters. But they will certainly hurt your performance."

You could always use relative merit pay. Or let parental demand for a teacher within a school govern pay. Or something. All I know is that parents alone are not to blame for educational problems -- I've had teachers that were probably, in retrospect, mildly mentally retarded. Not to say I didn't have great teachers, mostly, but it only takes one dumbass to cripple a borderline student's chances.

Part of the problem, methinks, is that states react to a teacher shortage not by increasing incentives, but by lowering their standards for licensing teachers. And once those idiots get hired, the union will stick by them until they get caught banging a student, even after the shortage passes.

Raising teacher pay is not sufficient -- it needs to be much easier to get rid of underperforming teachers on a year-to-year basis, otherwise you're just overpaying jackasses. Raising standards is actually the best place to start, because it's by far the harder fight to win -- and if successful, it will almost certainly create a shortage of teachers, which will provide support for improving the incentives for those teachers that are qualified.

[TallDave]

I think the guy in that Reason.TV segment said it best:

We don't build schools for the teachers. We build schools for the students.

Fire them all. Fuck their pension too.

[TallDave]

Could that be because public education, like so many other public institutions, is underfunded to the extent that its failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Ah, the motto of the government: "we just need more money! then we can do our job to mimimal levels of comepetence!"

The D.C. public schools have the highest per-pupil spending rate in the country. They have some of the lowest test scores.

The D.C. Catholic schools have some of the lowest per-pupil spending rates in the country (1/3 of public rates). They have some of the highest test scores.

And there's no self-selection here; D.C. Catholic schools are open to anyone who can afford them, and have even asked for the public schools' worst students.

Public education spending has tripled in 30 years. Do you know where that money goes? Educrats and social agendas. Whether Johny can read is of little importance to the NEA.

[Gipper]

"gipper, why are they considered "at-risk?"
What work do you do with these children?"

Crackhead moms, sexually abusive step parents, etc.

What do I do? That has varried over the years. Everything from volunteering to help with daycare at a public school for parenting and pregnant teens, to street-based outreach to let kids know that there are services they can access to better their situation (e.g., get off of the street, stop turning tricks, etc.).

But the point is that I have seen kids (hundreds) rise above horrific family situations in order to graduate high school and go on to college due to what was once known as intestinal fortitude. So I don't fully buy into the whole "it's the parents thing".

But I have had incompetent teachers.

[domoarrigato]

Lets not forget the kids are to blame too. I realize that this may seem a little heartless, and that many kids have crappy role models, etc. It hurts their chances, to be sure. That said, there has to be personal responsibility for their own education. As much as I'd like to blame the teachers unions entirely - the truth is some combination of incompetant teachers/shitbag parents/lazy kids. You folks can propose percentages if you are so inclined. But many kids don't WANT to learn - it's boring/stupid/pointless. They can be forgiven for making bad decisions as minors, which is what parents/teachers are for - but at some level, they have to do it for themselves.

[Mike]

" "Back in the day, someone like Richard Feynman could grow up middle class tinkering with radios in New York and go to MIT. These days he would have never gotten in."

I'm going to call BS on this one. The 'system' is still very good at finding and elevating geniuses, esp self directed ones like Feynman. A guy with a 700+ math SAT score and evidence of a decent work ethic even in a relatively crappy school system *will* get into MIT." "

I call and raise your BS. I got a 780 on the math SAT, before the 90's renormalization, had a good work ethic, and didn't get into MIT. One of the main reasons was my lack of sufficient extracurriculars: i.e. BS community service. College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now. Grades and test scores are mattering less and less.

[domoarrigato]

College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now. Grades and test scores are mattering less and less.

and it's correlary:

College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now. What college you went to is mattering less and less.

[Gipper]

"Lets not forget the kids are to blame too. I realize that this may seem a little heartless, and that many kids have crappy role models, etc. It hurts their chances, to be sure. That said, there has to be personal responsibility for their own education."

Absolutely. I've never seen a gang banger graduate high school. But I've seen a lot of ex-gang bangers do it. Kids at just about any age have an inherent desire to be responsible. It doesn't take all that much effort to tap into it.

[brotherben]

Gipper,my point is simply that you are acting as a surrogate parent, helping these kids to understand how their decisions affect their future.

Domo, my suggestion was that parenting makes the biggest difference. It isn't the sole reason for success or failure in school.

[Gipper]

"Gipper,my point is simply that you are acting as a surrogate parent, helping these kids to understand how their decisions affect their future."

And it's fun! Kids are a blast.

[Gipper]

But I would add that I am NOT acting as a surrogate parent and that parenting is NOT what makes the biggest difference. That's a distortion on your part. I had great parents and was an horrific student. It all comes down to self-motivation on the part of the student.

[domoarrigato]

Domo, my suggestion was that parenting makes the biggest difference. It isn't the sole reason for success or failure in school.

I am inclined to agree. My point is that when discussing the miserable performance of public schools, teachers unions are quick to take credit for success, and just as quick to push off blame for failure onto parents. The apologists want to blame everyone but the teachers: Money, parents, culture, rap music, anything. But these other factors aren't the point. We can't change the structural makeup of a given counties families, but we can change the incentives given to schools, and the process by which an enormous amount of money is wastefully spent. Pining over the many other issues at play is a red herring when the discussion is "How can we make education better today with the tax dollars we have" This is precisely the question that local school boards are facing right now. Everyone agrees that it would be better with more parent involvement, but lack thereof is no excuse for the teachers not to do their jobs well.

[domoarrigato]

It all comes down to self-motivation on the part of the student.

Eventually, it does. I do think it's the parent/teachers role to do what they can.

[brotherben]

domo, if you are a cook in a cafe and, say, 70% of the customers walk in having made the decision that they won't like the food and will send it back. Add to it that the 30% that look forward to your cooking are continually harrassed and threatened by the other diners. Now add in that you can't refuse service to anyone, and you can't punish their behaviour. Now add in that 50% have no idea how to use utensils and don't know the names for the food you serve.
Can you be an effective cook?

[Kolohe]

I call and raise your BS. I got a 780 on the math SAT, before the 90's renormalization, had a good work ethic, and didn't get into MIT. One of the main reasons was my lack of sufficient extracurriculars: i.e. BS community service. College admissions at the top colleges are largely a matter of political correctness now. Grades and test scores are mattering less and less.

I had 700+ (each section) SAT scores and a decent amount of extracurriculars and got rejected from MIT. (got into Cornell though) Wound up going to state U because even before the money they gave me, it was hard to justify the cost of 1 year at cornell being the same as all 4 years at Va Tech.)

Anyway, though I agree with some of your point, an actual genius like Feynman (unlike people like us wanking on the intertubes) is still fairly readily identified and pushed through the system.

[domoarrigato]

Now add in that you can't refuse service to anyone, and you can't punish their behaviour.

I think I'm right is suggesting that the above is at the core of the difficulty. So the answer is NO - I cannot. But I think that fact actually bolsters my view. Having private schools for unruly kids that CAN punish (with parental consent). What it doesn't argue for are the solutions proposed above (ever more money for "massively underfunded schools" *choke*)

You are making many assumptions about what a free market can and cannot provide. Do you think poor black parents of unruly kids WOULDN'T choose to use a voucher to send their kid to a school that specializes in troubled kids? Do you think that the (good) teachers who already work with these kids in the public system, WOULDN'T choose to do so for the same money in the private sector, if they had less govt red tape tying their hands on what they can and can't do?

[Teh Other Side]

"I had 700+ (each section) SAT scores and a decent amount of extracurriculars and got rejected from MIT."

MIT offered to fly me up for an interview because I listed my ethnicity as "Native American". I got a 680 on the Math section.

[Teh Other Side]

But I got a 33 on the ACT math, just to put it in perspective.

[engineer]

"I had great parents and was an horrific student."
That does not, in itself, disprove bro.ben's point. If, for example tests make up 60 of a student's grade, and he aces every test but doesn't bother to do homework or quizzes, he will fail the course, even though tests are the biggest part (indeed the majority). I hope this analogy does not fail.

[engineer]

[When I was at the University of Idaho, I had some extremely good economics professors who actually came and taught their own classes every day]

What? Your professors taught the classes? What weird-A alternate universe are you from, buddy?

[engineer]

"don't you try to get the terms that are not the most cosmically just"

Define "cosmically just". I don't remember any commandment saying "And if thou be an engineer, thou shalt not work for greater or lesser pay than so-and-so..."

[Ian]

I heard the story on NPR, the teacher said that it was insulting because it implied that the teachers weren't doing their very best already. This is the danger of believing that the people of any profession are angels. She also ignores that some people's very best is not as good as other people's very best and that they should be replaced.

[MJ]

"the biggest reason for failure in the classroom is a failure of parenting in the home

Who the fuck could possibly dispute this?"

Teacher's unions, when they demand more tax money be thrown at the public schools.

If parenting is the biggest problem, then increasing school funding (or any other school reform) will do nothing to improve education as the problem is beyond the scope of work of the government or the schools.

[Hazel Meade]

I didn't get into MIT because the admissions deadline is December 1st. And nobody in my school did their job and informed me about that.

In fact, I did all my college research myself.
The high school guidance counsellors weren't worth shit.

[chris]

A Detroit teacher is against being paid based on MERIT! Go figure!