Vaccines Don't Cause Autism, Rules Court

A special vaccine court has ruled the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine does not cause autism. The Associated Press reports:

The judges in the cases said the evidence was overwhelmingly contrary to the parent's claims _ and backed years of science that found no risk.

More than 5,000 claims were filed with the U.S. Court of Claims alleging that vaccines caused autism and other neurological problems in their children. To win, they had to show that it was more likely than not that the autism symptoms were directly related to the measles-mumps-rubella shots they received.

Let's hope that more parents will now go get their kids vaccinated. As I pointed out in some of my earlier reporting:

The threat posed by the vaccine is likely illusory; that of infectious disease is surely not.

In addition, The Lancet reports rich countries with low vaccination rates could be responsible for spreading measles to poor children in developing countries where such infections are far more deadly. 

Whole AP report here. 

Comments

[SpongePaul]

well duh vacs do not cause autism, only the stupid ever belived that!

[Janet]

I really don't care what the studies say. I just know that autism is caused by vaccines, I feel it is true. Not all things need studies to be proven true. I knew someone who's kid had a vaccine and he go autism, so that proves that the vaccines caused it.

[Warty]

Next: do spoons cause fatness?

[ClubMedSux]

Does this mean Jenny McCarthy is going to have to go out and find a job again?

[SpongePaul]

Does this mean Jenny McCarthy is going to have to go out and find a job again?
________________________________________
we can only hope it is a job where she keeps her mouth shut and just stands there.

[Urkobold?]

CLUBMEDSUX,

YES. AS A PAINTER.

[Abdul]

Interestngly, during the presidential campaign, neither Clinton, nor McCain, nor Obama were willing to go out on a limb and say that there was no vaccine-autism link. Jenny McCarthy can swing that many votes.

[Mike]

"we can only hope it is a job where she keeps her mouth shut and just stands there."

She's best when she's doing the exact opposite of those two things.

[kinnath]

From CNN:

Powers' litigation steering committee is representing thousands of families that fall into three categories: those who claim MMR vaccines and thimerosal-containing vaccines can combine to cause autism; those who claim thimerosal-containing vaccines alone can cause autism; and those who claim MMR vaccines, without any link to thimerosal, can cause autism.

Thursday's rulings will only affect the families that fall under the first category, Powers said.

Picking nits.

[yandus yillib]

Well if the court says it, it must be so.

Devine right of kings and all.

[R C Dean]

Pish. Everyone knows that high-fructose corn syrup causes autism.

[kinnath]

From Reuters:

The Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceeding ruled against the parents of Michelle Cedillo, Colten Snyder and William Yates Hazlehurst, who had claimed that a measles, mumps and rubella vaccines had combined with other vaccine ingredients to damage the three children.

"I conclude that the petitioners have not demonstrated that they are entitled to an award on Michelle's behalf," Special Master George Hastings, a former tax claims expert at the Department of Justice, wrote in the Cedillo ruling.

[David]

Next: do spoons cause fatness?

Mine does.

[yandus yillib]

Special Master George Hastings, a former tax claims expert at the Department of Justice, wrote in the Cedillo ruling

And Increase Mather said....

[Mike E.]

Yes, people. Don't question your government. All vaccines are safe. Follow the schedule that we have provided you. Your kids can handle it. We know best.

As the father of one child with autism, one without, and another on the way, I am very sensitive to both sides of this issue. The fact is that NO ONE knows what causes autism. There is no proof that vaccines cause autism. There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.

There has been way too much hysteria from both the pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine crowds. Children should be vaccinated, but the current recommended schedules are probably a bit too aggressive.

Then again, what do I know. I've only been researching these things for a decade.

[Citizen Nothing]

And a guy who can't figure out how "Sunday" is spelled backwards replied...

[Citizen Nothing]

"Hysteria from the pro-vaccine...crowds."
Rich.

[BakedPenguin]

Special Master George Hastings

I find it disturbing that there is anyone in our government with the title of "Special Master". Unless that's his name, which is a different level of disturbing.

[Special Master SugarFree]

"Hey, I just got Master's Degree."

"What, I'm supposed to call you 'Master' now?"

[kinnath]

There is no proof that vaccines cause autism.

From CNN: Likewise, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization and the Institute of Medicine have found no credible link between vaccinations and autism.

There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.

This may not be a satisfactory situation from your point of view. But the legal system cannot assign liability to the makers of vaccines if there is no proof they contribute to causing autism. As such, the ruling of the special master is the correct one.

[Zeb]

"There is no proof that they are not one of the causes."

There is also no proof that the existence of penguins is not a cause of autism.

[Jordan]

There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.

There is no proof that dollar bills are not one of the causes of autism either. If you want me to take them off of your hands, you know just in case, I'd be happy to.

What's that? That's a risk your willing to take? How convenient.

[Citizen Nothing]

You know, there's also no proof that Mercury, the planet, doesn't cause autism.
Let's blow the fucker up just in case.

[Jordan]

Children should be vaccinated, but the current recommended schedules are probably a bit too aggressive.

Evidence please.

[Citizen Nothing]

Zeb and Jordan beat me to the punch. I'm kind of logy today.

[BakedPenguin]

SF, I've always thought the title should be reserved for those who have truly earned it. NSFPCW.

[Special Master SugarFree]

Citizen Nothing,

You know it's really the Moon. Your hand-waving about Mercury is not going to change that. You adherence to Radical Selenism makes you just another hack.

[Citizen Nothing]

SF (special Master edition),
The moon IS a harsh mistress.

[Special Master SugarFree]

BP... hear, hear! Although I don't know what Helen Hunt's doing the background. Gearing up to kick Paul Reiser in the jimmies, hopefully.

[jasno]

Mike E.:

As the father of one child with autism, one without, and another on the way

You've got another kid with autism on the way? But he hasn't even been vaccinated yet!

FWIW, my money is on the 'cities cause inbreeding' hypothesis.

Also, I think a lot of people in the previous generation went undiagnosed. I'm pretty sure my mom and one of my uncles has Aspergers, but no one ever diagnosed it - they were just 'weird' and anti-social.

But who knows... I suspect it will take a few more years of genetic correlation to figure it out.

[John]

"There is no proof that vaccines cause autism. There is no proof that they are not one of the causes."

But there is about 100 years worth of proof that vaccines prevent disease and have saved millions of lives.

[libertarian democrat]

As someone who has worked both in research on autism and treatment of children with it, this makes me really happy. The less time and effort parents waste on this non-issue, the better off they'll be.

Also, there is no evidence that I, sitting here at my desk, am not the cause of autism. Please do not hurt me.

[Special Master SugarFree]

The Moon is a harsh mistress. It's time to teach that bitch a lesson.

I launched all the world's nukes this morning
Hoping it would kick-start something
Some of them went off course and hit the moon instead
It was kinda pretty.

Hasn't been a whole lot of looting
On the other hand, oh, it's fucking freezing
Someone on TV said something about going underground...
Guess we better start digging.

What were you doing for those eight and a half minutes?
Was it mean, was it petty, or did you realize you were sorry
And that you love them?

I saw an astronomer break down on CNN
He said, "I'm a scientist, not your fucking clergyman!"
And no one's going nowhere 'cause the cars are all frozen
They give the power plants ten days

What were you doing for those eight and a half minutes?
Was it mean, was it petty, or did you realize you were sorry
And that you love them?

But the sky is like a dome of black metal flake
And stars bleed together in phosphorescent lakes
And a dead black disk slides silently overhead
It's fucking beautiful is what it is.

What were you doing for those eight and a half minutes?
Was it mean, was it petty, or did you realize you were sorry
And that you love them?

When I die I'm going to heaven
Leave it to the cockroaches and the 7-11s
But it'd be nice to think we could get it right down here... just once

[Ishmael]

Then again, what do I know. I've only been researching these things for a decade.

Keep hunting, Ahab.

[Shannon Love]

I suppose it would be unsporting to point out that Lancet started the entire "MMR vaccine causes autism" fad by publishing a (now recognize fraudulent study back in the early 90's?

Lancet editorial policy often seems less about publishing peer reviewed research and more about using the prestige of an established scientific journal to push whatever political or social agenda strikes their fancy.

[JW]

A special vaccine court has ruled the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine does not cause autism.

And yet, I'll wager good money we'll still be having this same conversation in another decade.

[Special Master SugarFree]

JW,

You can never lose money wagering that people will continue believe that something is not their fault. No deal.

[Face Facts]

"The fact is that NO ONE knows what causes autism."

Well I do. It's caused by linguistic changes. Autistic is simply a euphemism for retarded. It's for people who can't accept that their kids are mentally retarded.

See, back in the old days, some kids were just retarded. Life's unfair. But it created a problem -- no one to blame.

But if you call retarded kids "autistic" you can blame the retardation on external factors, which opens up the door to litigation.

But the truth is, the kids aren't really "autistic", they are just retarded.

Test case:

Baby Hughy, autistic or retarded?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDHpJwlJ9wE

[GILMORE]

I think you mean, "Baby Huey"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....playnext=1

Get down

[BakedPenguin]

Gearing up to kick Paul Reiser in the jimmies, hopefully.

One of my exes friggin' loved Mad About You. Anyone who injures Paul Reiser would deserve that title in my book.

[JW]

You can never lose money wagering that people will continue believe that something is not their fault. No deal.

Even if I give you points for climate change ? C'm-o-o-o-n...easy money!

[Fluffy]

Facts -

Depends on what part of the spectrum you're talking about.

The obsessive-compulsive repetitive behaviors, echolalia, self-injuriousness, etc. associated with autism don't really have analogues in plain old mental retardation or Downs.

Different symptomologies generally mean different disorders.

I think the issue isn't whether autism and retardation are the same exact disorder; the issue is whether autism has a genetic cause [like most types of retardation] or an environmental cause.

[John]

"Lancet editorial policy often seems less about publishing peer reviewed research and more about using the prestige of an established scientific journal to push whatever political or social agenda strikes their fancy."

No kidding. Who does their peer review? Michael Moore?

[Solana]

well duh vacs do not cause autism, only the stupid ever belived that!

No. Some very confused, upset, and coping parents of autistic children believed that. You're lucky to never have been made to deal with the same sort of situation.

I know plenty of brilliant parents with autistic children (advanced Science degrees, law degrees, med degrees, etc.) who thought there was something to the claim. They just needed an enemy. They weren't stupid; they just needed a reason that their otherwise healthy kid was afflicted.

I feel bad for them.

[John]

"I know plenty of brilliant parents with autistic children (advanced Science degrees, law degrees, med degrees, etc.) who thought there was something to the claim. They just needed an enemy. They weren't stupid; they just needed a reason that their otherwise healthy kid was afflicted.

I feel bad for them."

I feel bad for them to. But that is why we have scientists and have them make these kinds of determination and not parents. The scientists and doctors who enabled these poor people's dellusions are really the ones to blame. Also, how many kids got measels and mumps thanks to this BS? The whole thing is a blot on the modern scientific establishment.

[R C Dean]

Yeah, I often wonder how people with autistic or severely disabled kids cope.

Lashing out blindly, however, is not a coping mechanism that gets a lot of sympathy from me.

[Solana]

how many kids got measels and mumps thanks to this BS?

Well I don't know a single one, personally. Do you have a statistic? There might have been a couple, but I don't remember any kind of delusional parent-related wave of mumps.

In my experience, no parents were determining whether or not the vaccine caused the disorder. There was no scene in a lab where an angry parent took a beaker from a dude in a white coat. But many parents were aggressively pushing a look at this, and some were foolishly doing more. I don't think we're ever worse off for a serious look into what we're forcing our children to shoot into their bodies, though. Now that it's settled, I don't think we're worse off for it.

[Solana]

Yeah, I often wonder how people with autistic or severely disabled kids cope.

It's very similar to the way a person copes with death, actually. My mother talks about it all the time. The stages of grieving are identical.

[ed]

I launched all the world's nukes this morning...

Vaccines cause cut & paste poetry that nobody reads.

[Paul]

but the current recommended schedules are probably a bit too aggressive.

Why?

[Naga Sadow]

Its as bad as the claim that living near power lines causes cancer. Or even worse, my pet peeve of someone claiming cell phones cause cancer. I just wanna shout at them "It's a different kind of radiation idiot!" Sweet Jesus people! Anyone ever have a friend that wears magnets on his shoes? "When the iron bonded with tissue and blood it changed the chemical properties! It's not magnetic anymore you idiot!"

I'm done raving now. That is all.

[P Brooks]

In other news, "Dracula" is a fictional character.

What ever happened to the "Act of God" explanation for improbable, yet disastrous, occurrences?

Oh, yeah, you can't drag Mister God (aka "the defendant") into court and get a jury to pick his pocket.

[I\'m a bad boy]

Yeah, I often wonder how people with autistic or severely disabled kids cope.

It's very similar to the way a person copes with death, actually. My mother talks about it all the time.

She would know.

[Naga Sadow]

BP! Was that you! Teh AWESome!

[Mike E.]

I think the issue isn't whether autism and retardation are the same exact disorder; the issue is whether autism has a genetic cause [like most types of retardation] or an environmental cause.

Or both. In other words, an environmental catalyst could affect only kids of a certain genetic makeup.

As for Mr. Facts, my son is retarded because he has autism. I am under no illusions. In fact, his original diagnosis from a neurologist was Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified. That's a bullshit was of saying, "Well, he's on the austistic spectrum, but since he's not pulling out his own fingernails and eating them, we'll call it something else to spare your feelings." Fuck you, Doc! He has autism! Don't try to sugar-coat this for me.

If you want to trod out the old Bill Hicks line about my child "being conceived with a weak sperm", be my guest. I really don't give a shit. Just be glad that you don't have to deal with any this.

Finally, to all of you: I agree with the court's ruling. There is no way to prove liability here.

[MarkySparky]

There might have been a couple, but I don't remember any kind of delusional parent-related wave of mumps. ... Now that it's settled, I don't think we're worse off for it.

Google "mumps epidemic Iowa" for the recent word on that. Also, if you care to actually research something before opining, check out the stats on measles in the UK, reports of measles outbreaks in San Diego, or the consequences of a rubella infection during pregnancy.

I'd say we're a hell of a lot worse off.

[dbcooper]

The whole thing is a blot on the modern scientific establishment.

Erm, the Lancet paper may have been, but the "whole thing" was a blot on the modern f*cking legal establishment ...

[JW]

Yeah, I often wonder how people with autistic or severely disabled kids cope.

My daughter's on the very low end of the autism spectrum, just this side of Asperger's Syndrome; high functioning, but with executive function problems.

It's fucking draining and I know we're getting off easy compared to parent's of kids much worse. Add in the infinite drama of a normal tweener girl and you get the idea.

All I can say is thank god for good beer, Gin and Tequila. For me, that is.

[Episiarch]

I'm an excellent driver.

[ev]

Oh, you sexy bitch!

[That Son-of-a-Bitch Van Owen]

Part of the reason there have not been large outbreaks of the diseases protected for by vaccines is that the kids who are not vaccinated are protected by herd immunity. If the unvaccinated are in a population that is largely vaccinated, the chances of infection are small as most of the disease vectors are eliminated.

Of course that doesn't mean it can't happen and as the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated increases, so does the potential of an outbreak.

[Mike E.]

I'm an excellent driver.

LOL

[libertarian democrat]

"The fact is that NO ONE knows what causes autism."

Well I do. It's caused by linguistic changes. Autistic is simply a euphemism for retarded. It's for people who can't accept that their kids are mentally retarded.

See, back in the old days, some kids were just retarded. Life's unfair. But it created a problem -- no one to blame.

But if you call retarded kids "autistic" you can blame the retardation on external factors, which opens up the door to litigation.

But the truth is, the kids aren't really "autistic", they are just retarded.

Major fail. Probably just trolling, but the autism spectrum tends to have more in common than the different types of mental retardation. And some on the spectrum are not retarded, or only have minor retardation, but still have phenotypic similarities to those on the spectrum that are clearly retarded.

And of course, since retardation often has external causes, that whole line of thought you seem to have is pretty silly.

But yeah, I agree. Basic comprehension and critical thinking are overrated.

[Citizen Nothing]

Whenever I begin to feel the least bit oppressed, put-upon, downtrodden or bedraggled I consider the good health of my children and the world suddenly seems quite a bit brighter.

[libertarian democrat]

And because I am feeling a bit childish today:

Face Facts: So, by your logic, you're "autistic"?

[martyred_cars]

If the autism connection is now debunked, I'd like to hear all of your wise thoughts on the dTaP scream.

[BakedPenguin]

Naga, sorry to disappoint, but I haven't posted anything here except under my regular nom de blog.

[Episiarch]

It's a 1949 Buick Roadmaster. Straight 8. Fireball 8. Only 8,985 production models. Dad lets me drive slow on the driveway. But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

[Mike E.]

K-Mart sucks.

[DBA]

I love all of the scientists on this thread. When my son was getting vaccinated, I had the choice between vaccines with thimerosal or vaccines without. I chose without, given thimerosal had, well you know, mercury in it. I thought that was prudent. I also think it was prudent to look into the correlation between increased autism rates and vaccines to see if there was a causal link. To not look into it would have been, well, not prudent.

I don't get most of the liber-tards on this issue. The Government forcing parents to do something like inject mercury laced substances directly into the bloodstreams of infants is cool (desirable even), while forcing people to do something as innocuous as wearing a motor cylce helmet is one step from fascism (if not fascism already).

Mike, E., I feel for you. I wish you well.

[Special Master SugarFree]

DBA,

Congratulations. You've managed to almost perfectly imitate a 9/11 Truther. Especially the "liber-tards" crack.

Do Lonewacko next!

[Hazel Meade]

Several comments:

-Can we get this court to rule on things like the following?:
-Whether the trace levels of pesticide in "non-organic" food cause health problems
-Wether using inorganic fertilizer is environmentally unsustainable
-Whether very low-level radiation exposure over long periods of time raises the rate of cancer or birth defects
-Whether recombinant DNA modification is more risky than cross-breeding

Side issues:
-After you've made several exhaustive attempts to find evidence, absence of evidence, IS INDEED evidence of absence. It's ridiculous to assert that there's no proof that vaccines don't cause autism. Years of study specifically directed to that point has failed to turn up any proof that they do.

-Autism isn't mental retardation. Autism is not well understood, but it is known that it's connected to certain neurological defects that aren't necessarily present in retardation. Autism tends to be confined to linguistic and social interaction problems. Other reasoning processes are left unaffected. Though severe retardation can also involve autism, it's more a matter of severe retardation causing so many neurological problems that it can help affecting language centers along with everything else.

[GILMORE]

Autism is a set of symptoms for which they can't assign any clear biological basis for.

Its a diagnosis not unlike schizophrenia, where evidenced behavior is the prime determining factor... not any identifiable chemical or biological irregularity.

Not saying it doesnt exist. Its just very poorly understood. "Retarded" is probably an unfair term, lumping in people who are weird and have serious issues with people whose frontal cortex is underdeveloped... but in any case, it is what it is

[GILMORE]

Autism is a set of symptoms for which they can't assign any clear biological basis for.

Its a diagnosis not unlike schizophrenia, where evidenced behavior is the prime determining factor... not any identifiable chemical or biological irregularity.

Not saying it doesnt exist. Its just very poorly understood. "Retarded" is probably an unfair term, lumping in people who are weird and have serious issues with people whose frontal cortex is underdeveloped... but in any case, it is what it is

[Mike E.]

Thank you, DBA. You made my point better than I did.

[MattXIV]

Solana,

US data on various infectious diseases. The US had some major outbreaks in '06.

The UK seems to be in worse shape with cases getting up ~16k/year in England and Wales but I don't know where to find their year to year stats.

[Hazel Meade]

Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified. That's a bullshit was of saying, "Well, he's on the austistic spectrum, but since he's not pulling out his own fingernails and eating them, we'll call it something else to spare your feelings." Fuck you, Doc! He has autism! Don't try to sugar-coat this for me.

PDD is severe pervasive retardation.

Not all autistics are PDD though. Nor ar all retards.

PDD just means your so fucked that you have both. Or that whatever it is is so severe that they can't tell.

[DBA]

No worries, Mike. Don't forget, posters here think wit is better than logic. Don't let it get to you. (see how Master-Debater SugarFree lumped me in with troofers to make it seem like I'm nutty from the get go? How witty)

[Episiarch]

Gotta get my boxer shorts at K-Mart.

[libertymike]

DBA-

You might label me a libertard, although I am more accurately described as an anarcho-free enterprise-individualist.

However, I do agree with your reasoning in the second paragraph of your post. Of course, I oppose the totalitarian concept of the government forcing parents to subject their children to injections of mercury laced substances. I also oppose the confiscation of my property for the purpose of giving it to the rent seeking scum who manufacture, distribute and administer the vaccines. Can you say crony capitalism equals socialism equals stick your "science" up your ass?

Sure, a libertarian rejects the goofy, phantasmajoric claims of the allopathic jihaddis that failure to vaccinate spells doom. Just rubbish. A libertarian can not be for forced vaccination. Likewise, a libertarian can not be for compulsory helmet and seatbelt laws. I will have to part company with you, apparently, on the last issue. But, I hope you can see that I agree with your exposing the glaring hypocrisy of some who call themsleves libertarians.

[Citizen Nothing]

Boxers cause cancer, Epi. Just ask DBA.
(I'm so, so witty!)

[libertymike]

Evidence is not limited to double blind placebo studies. Some claim that this is the only kind of "evidence" upon which to make arguments and draw conclusions. They would be logically challenged.

[Mike E.]

No worries, Mike. Don't forget, posters here think wit is better than logic. Don't let it get to you. (see how Master-Debater SugarFree lumped me in with troofers to make it seem like I'm nutty from the get go? How witty)

I'm over it now. I'm just waiting for one of them to say that there is no such thing as Muscular Dystrophy. "Fuck Jerry Lewis! Those kids are just lazy. If their parents would have let them run around when they were kids, their muscles would be just fine."

[MattXIV]

Bonus MMR fun - it looks like Wakefield falsified the data in the Lancet paper.

[Jordan]

I'm over it now. I'm just waiting for one of them to say that there is no such thing as Muscular Dystrophy. "Fuck Jerry Lewis! Those kids are just lazy. If their parents would have let them run around when they were kids, their muscles would be just fine."

Keep beating on strawmen; you're outclassed by real opponents. We don't deny that autism exists, just as we don't deny that Muscular Dystrophy exists. We deny that vaccines cause autism, because the only shred of evidence offered by morons like you is one fraudulent and thoroughly debunked piece of shit study. Meanwhile, dozens of properly conducted studies have failed to find a shred of evidence.

I'm waiting for assholes like you to start claiming that vaccines cause autism; that claim would have the same amount of supporting evidence as your other ludicrous claim.

[Jordan]

Er, last line should read:

I'm waiting for assholes like you to start claiming that vaccines cause muscular dystrophy; that claim would have the same amount of supporting evidence as your other ludicrous claim.

[swillfredo pareto]

The Government forcing parents to do something like inject mercury laced substances directly into the bloodstreams of infants is cool (desirable even), while forcing people to do something as innocuous as wearing a motor cylce helmet is one step from fascism (if not fascism already).

You are aware that the former involves contagious diseases, while the latter involves the individual choice of an emancipated adult, correct? I have little use for government, but support for true public health policies are well within the liber-tard spectrum. If the government essentially forces my children to attend their schools then it is extremely reasonable that prudent steps are taken to minimize their exposure to contagious diseases.

[Special Master SugarFree]

DBA,

Who else comes to the boards on a regular basis and is outraged that libertarians are not automatically on their side in an anti-government stance? Who else comes here with shaky science and whines when we don't agree with them? Who else comes here and makes fatuous analogies about libertarian stances? Argue like a Troofer, you get called a Troofer.

You can believe whatever lunacy you desire, just don't get on us because we don't share it.

[DBA]

Sugar, how, specifically, is what I wrote analogous to a troofer? (Remember, I said "specifically," so don't give me some vague bullshit about being a conspiracy theorist)

You can't be suggesting the theory put forth by non-vaccinists wasn't even worth looking into, like the theory being put forth by troofers, were you?

If so, your thinking must have been along the lines of the following:

I see there is an increase in the vaccination schedule.
That caused an increase in the amount of thimerosal injected into children.
Thimerosal has a type of Mercury in it.
Mercury is a neurotoxin.
I see there is also an increase in the number of autistic children.
Fuck it, no need to look any further.

[Naga Sadow]

Mike E.,

Holy fucking shit! LMAO!!!

[DBA]

Jordan, your fixed it wrong, your last line really should have read, "I'm sorry for being an asshole."

[Naga Sadow]

What is the mercury bonded with? Mercury bonded with other substances changes the chemical properties including toxicity. No, I won't look it up for you. Provide links.

[Mike E.]

Meanwhile, dozens of properly conducted studies have failed to find a shred of evidence.

Cite them. Make sure that they were double-blind and unbiased.

I'm waiting for assholes like you to start claiming that vaccines cause autism;

I have not and until someone proves that it does, I will not. In fact, I said that no one has proven it. Is reading comprehension difficult for you?

that claim would have the same amount of supporting evidence as your other ludicrous claim.

What claim did I make?

[Jordan]

Jordan, your fixed it wrong, your last line really should have read, "I'm sorry for being an asshole."

I was being cautious. Some bum on the street told me that that particular string of characters causes autism in all who read it, and I believed him. No need to thank me.

[dbcooper]

Mercury is a neurotoxin.

Please look further into ethyl and methyl mercury. That should keep you busy for a while, instead of inventing libertarian straw men to have one sided arguments with.

[Citizen Nothing]

From the MattXIV link:

"Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease."

A small price to pay to sooth irrational fears.

[dbcooper]

Who else comes to the boards on a regular basis and is outraged that libertarians are not automatically on their side in an anti-government stance? Who else comes here with shaky science and whines when we don't agree with them? Who else comes here and makes fatuous analogies about libertarian stances? Argue like a Troofer, you get called a Troofer.

Don't forget the constant changing of the subject when they are refuted.

[Neu Mejican]

Hazel,

Hazel Meade | February 12, 2009, 1:42pm | #
Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified. That's a bullshit was of saying, "Well, he's on the austistic spectrum, but since he's not pulling out his own fingernails and eating them, we'll call it something else to spare your feelings." Fuck you, Doc! He has autism! Don't try to sugar-coat this for me.

PDD is severe pervasive retardation.

Not all autistics are PDD though. Nor ar all retards.

PDD just means your so fucked that you have both. Or that whatever it is is so severe that they can't tell.

That's not quite accurate.
A better way to think of it is as nested categories.

PDD > Autistic Spectrum > Autism

A shared set of features with a more specific set needed to get into the more specific category.

So, PDD means you may have some, but not all, of the features you need to be placed on the Autism spectrum, Autistic Spectrum means you fit into one of several distinct syndromes that share some common features with autism being the prototype.

Shorter...if you are an individual with autism you have a PDD, but having PDD doesn't mean you have autism.

[Pro Libertate]

Speaking of mercury, isn't it or hasn't it been part of metal fillings? Is it bonded differently or something? If not, why don't people talk about fillings causing autism?

[James]

Maybe it is because diagnosis is better now? While the number of autistics diagnosed has gone up, the number of retards diagnosed has gone down.

[Special Master SugarFree]

DBA,

Let's see...

You wrote:

I don't get most of the liber-tards on this issue.

And I wrote:

Who else comes to the boards on a regular basis and is outraged that libertarians are not automatically on their side in an anti-government stance?

and you wrote:

I love all of the scientists on this thread.

and I wrote

Who else comes here with shaky science and whines when we don't agree with them? Who else comes here and makes fatuous analogies about libertarian stances?

and you wrote

The Government forcing parents to do something like inject mercury laced substances directly into the bloodstreams of infants is cool (desirable even), while forcing people to do something as innocuous as wearing a motor cylce helmet is one step from fascism (if not fascism already).

and I wrote:

Who else comes here and makes fatuous analogies about libertarian stances?

The answer to all my questions? 9/11 Truthers.

See, as I said ("You can believe whatever lunacy you desire, just don't get on us because we don't share it."), I don't really care what kooky fucking "prove a negative" argument you are looking to engage in, I care that you think we should share your kooky argument on the basis of the fact we are generally suspicious of the role of government in our lives.

I know that you have it in the grief-knotted mess you call a brain that somehow "disbelieve in my kooky argument" is equal to "libertarians think it's OK for kids to be injected with mercury," but IT IS NOT.

Feel free to disregard all of this in a self-serving manner.

[Bachalon]

DBA,

How much thimerosal is in vaccines?

What is it's composition?

How much mercury is toxic to children?

[DBA]

dbcooper, I'll type this slow so even you can understand. I'm not refuting the conclusion of the studies.

I've said three things:

1) I thought it was prudent to conduct the studies in the first place.

2) I don't get the libertarian inconsistency on theis issue (usually they are consistent)

and 3) I feel for Mike

ps: Ever since you guys learned the definition of a "strawman argument" a couple of years ago, you've been beating it to death.

[Neu Mejican]

James,

There are studies currently underway that will determine whether/to what degree increased rates of identification are a result of better diagnosis. Have not seen any good evidence that the rate of Mental Retardation has decreased significantly.

It has already been pointed out, but it is not difficult to distinguish between mental retardation and autism. They may co-occur, but they are easily distinguishable.

For those who are confused on this issue...here are the basics.

http://www.autism-watch.org/general/dsm.shtml

This one includes the other PDD categories.
http://www.childbrain.com/pddq3.shtml

[DBA]

Sugar, darling, I did disregard that drivel, self-serving or not.

[Naga Sadow]

Dose makes the poison. Cyanide is deadly in large doses but essential in tiny doses. Mercury is a neurotoxin . . . in large doses. Everything from age to body mass to genetic makeup plays a role in what dose makes it deadly. Good luck figuring it out.

[cuernimus]

I think the increase in the rates of autism are caused by a lack of breast feeding during child development. The obvious solution is to subsidize large-breasted wet-nurses. I feel this is a plan we can all get between...er behind...blub blub blub blub.

[DBA]

libertymike, I was too busy being an asshole to figure out you were trying to have an honest discussion. Sorry.

[J sub D]

Oh, yeah, you can't drag Mister God (aka "the defendant") into court and get a jury to pick his pocket.

Really?

[yandus yillib]

And a guy who can't figure out how "Sunday" is spelled backwards replied...

Fukcnig lysdexia!

[libertarian democrat]

Also, what Neu said about PDD / autism.

[Hazel Meade]

Neu Mejican:

Yeah, I was somewhat inaccurate. But I think that the classification PDD (or PDD-NOS I should say), is kinda shifting around. That is, a lot of researchers aren't really sure whether what is classified as PDD-NOS should really be on the autistic spectrum or not. It may be a distinct disease that happens to overlap with some symptoms of autism. My impression is that the recent thinking on the subject is that it should not be. At least much of the recent literature I have read is careful to separate PDD from autism in general and reluctant to apply any conclusions drawn from one group to the other.

Moreover, it seems like most of the children diagnosed with PDD-NOS are there mainly because the doctors can't figure out what it is they actually have. It's just a catch-all for "we're not sure if you kid is retarded or just autistic, so we're classifying him as PDD-NOS, cause it can mean anything".

[Face Facts]

"While the number of autistics diagnosed has gone up, the number of retards diagnosed has gone down."

As I said, it's caused by linguistic changes.

[Paul]

People whose kids are sick naturally want to find an institutional or environmental cause. Who knows, if my kid had been born with some kind of genetic malady, I might feel the same way.

Unfortunately, saying it so, or feeling it's so doesn't make it so. The fact of the matter is, human biology, and more specifically, human DNA is fantastically complex. One error in the 'copy' and, as my wife who worked in the NICU can attest, you end of up with some bizarro shit. Please excuse the crass language.

Even if we convince people that Thimerosol doesn't cause autism, the culprit will merely move to something else. It's ever thus.

[Special Master SugarFree]

Neu,

I don't think the question of retardation vs. autism is really about is not whether or not current diagnostic practice can easily distinguish between the two, but rather the reactions of your basic physician in the past.

If in 1930, when presented with a child with severe autistic withdrawal and linguistic impairment, would your average physician consider the child retarded or victim of some un(der)diagnosed disease?

It just seems logical that the explosion in autism in the past few decades is driven by more accurate diagnosis. Is that all of it? Beats me. Could it be a modern malady due to environment or a genetic shift? Sure. Could it be vaccines? Not a lot of evidence to support that.

[Pro Libertate]

It makes me ill to think about kids suffering, and I have all the empathy in the world for their parents. The problem is, of course, that we just don't know what causes plenty of things, including autism. It may very well be that vaccines or other environmental agents, when combined with rare genetic conditions, do cause autism. But the evidence just doesn't appear to be there yet, and there are plenty of other factors that we don't know jack about.

I look forward to a time when our kids (and we post-kids) don't have to worry about such things.

[Neu Mejican]

Hazel,

Moreover, it seems like most of the children diagnosed with PDD-NOS are there mainly because the doctors can't figure out what it is they actually have. It's just a catch-all for "we're not sure if you kid is retarded or just autistic, so we're classifying him as PDD-NOS, cause it can mean anything".

The term that is used more commonly for these cases in my experience is Neurodevelopmental Disorder-NOS, but any "NOS" category is used to indicate that the individual fits some features of the larger category without meeting a specific set of features needed to get into a more well specified category.

The tension between dimensional and categorical diagnoses creates a lot of confusion in the field of disabilities...even among professionals.

[Dana4656]

There are other concerns with vaccines beyond Autism weighing in on risk to benefit becomes less clear when looking at vaccines for low mortality/morbidity disease i.e. chickenpox and others and government mandated mass vaccination for same.

[Come join us]

Could it be vaccines? Not a lot of evidence to support that.

Sugarfree, are you suggesting there is 'a little' evidence to support it?

TRUTHER!!!!!!!
MORAN!!!!!
BIGFOOT HUNTER!!!!!

[Neu Mejican]

Sugarfree,

It just seems logical that the explosion in autism in the past few decades is driven by more accurate diagnosis. Is that all of it? Beats me. Could it be a modern malady due to environment or a genetic shift? Sure. Could it be vaccines? Not a lot of evidence to support that.

It is clear that a change in diagnostic criteria plus better surveillance is a major factor - if not the primary driver- in the increased numbers of individuals identified with a diagnosis on the autism spectrum. What is unknown at the moment is whether these factors mask an underlying increase in the actual numbers of individuals in the population with the condition.

There have been some plausible arguments for why there might be a real increase in the numbers in our society, but the case against vaccines is stronger than "not a lot of evidence." The evidence against vaccines causing an increase in the incidence of autism is pretty much definitive. The more difficult question of whether any individual child had their autism caused by a vaccine is, really, the question that hasn't been answered definitively (making Mike E's assertion above, essentially, correct). It is, of course, very unlikely that vaccines are to blame.

[Urkobold?]

AUTISM IS CAUSED BY WOMEN WITH AUGMENTED RACKS WHO BREASTFEED; THUS, AU-TIT-ISM.

[Kolohe]

It wouldn't be women with gold rings in their nipple piercings?

[Neu Mejican]

Hazel,

the doctors can't figure out what it is they actually have.

I want to emphasize that you can "actually have" PDD-NOS. That can be the accurate diagnosis. It is possible to really have only some of the features needed for a more specific diagnosis. In essence an "NOS" diagnosis indicates that what you have is not something we have a more specific name for. It is not really meant to be used to indicate that a diagnostic process was inconclusive.

This doesn't get rid of the fact that an inconclusive diagnostic process might lead to an incorrect diagnosis of PDD-NOS due to incomplete information, measurement error, timing factors or whatever.

[MattXIV]

why don't people talk about fillings causing autism?

Oh, they do.

Matt's 1st Law of the Internet: No matter how crazy an idea is, someone out there who believes in it has a web page.

[Urkobold?]

THERE MAY BE SOMETHING TO WHAT YOU SAY, KOLOHE. PERHAPS AUGMENTED WOMEN WITH GOLD PIERCINGS WHO BREASTFEED?

THIS IS HOW SCIENCE WORKS, PEOPLE!

[Come join us]

How can anyone take Sugarfree seriuosly after he said there is evidence suggesting vaccines cause autism?

I bet he is a scientologist.

[Xeones]

Nothing to add to the discussion here, but props to SugarFree for the Dismemberment Plan reference.

[James]

I feel sorry for these kids and their parents. I still think that years ago many children with autism were diagnosed just as retards.

[Sally]

Autism is caused by body thetans. This has been scientifically proven.

[Jane]

I really don't care what the studies say. I just know that autism is caused by vaccines, I feel it is true. Not all things need studies to be proven true.

I would agree.

[Jane]

Autism is caused by body thetans. This has been scientifically proven.

What?

[Special Master SugarFree]

Xeones,

Thanks you for having some refinement and taste.

As for the other matter... I'm not claiming I know the truth on vaccines and autism; I don't think I'm a scientist. But I am calling bullshit on arguments based "prove it doesn't!" when there is no evidence that it does.

I only said "Not a lot of evidence" so as to not be completely mean to people with sick kids. I see that's not the sort of SugarFree you people want.

[yandus yillib]

Autism is caused by government.

Really bright kids go into la la land after they see how fucked up the world of regulation is.

[Geotpf]

Mike E. | February 12, 2009, 11:50am | #

As the father of one child with autism, one without, and another on the way, I am very sensitive to both sides of this issue. The fact is that NO ONE knows what causes autism. There is no proof that vaccines cause autism. There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.

There is no proof the color orange causes autism. There is no proof that it is not one of the causes.

There is no proof football causes autism. There is no proof that it is not one of the causes.

There is no proof dirt causes autism. There is no proof that it is not one of the causes.

There is no proof tomatoes causes autism. There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.

There is no proof [insert any noun in the English language here] causes autism. There is no proof that it is not one of the causes.

You're an idiot.

[Xeones]

SugarFree, have you heard any of Travis Morrison's solo stuff? Yeah, it kinda sucks. I miss the Plan.

[Mike E.]

Geotpf,

We agree on everything. I guess that makes you an idiot, too.

[Dan O]

"AUTISM IS CAUSED BY WOMEN WITH AUGMENTED RACKS WHO BREASTFEED; THUS, AU-TIT-ISM."

Go crawl back into the third-world sewer you crawled out of you taintless bottom-bitch.

[libertymike]

Sugar Free-

Your argument is misplaced relative to DBA's 1:32 post. Look at the second paragraph of his post. He claimed that he does not understand the inconsistency of libertarians with respect to forced vaccinations and mandatory helmet laws. Although I would not contend that you or most libertarians think it is cool for the state to force mercury laced substances into the bloodstream of infants, his point, fairly and somewhat indulgently read is that libertarians, as a whole, do not seem to scream as vociferously about the state forcing parents to vaccinate thier kids as they do with helmet laws.

On that point, DBA is right. In a free society, the state should not be able to force parents to vaccinate their kids. Period. There is no rational libertarian argument to the contrary. Just because some public health officals and other slaves to allopathic propoganda say that the sky will fall if they can't force your kids to be injected with vaccines does not make their chicken little prognostications credible.

Furthermore, who pays for the lion's share of the vaccines? Who gets the money? Those are far more important items for a libertarian to fcous upon.

[Special Master SugarFree]

Yeah, it does kind of suck. The Plan seemed to need the whole line-up to generate the proper sarcasm.

[Xeones]

They do the occasional reunion show in and around DC these days. Might be worth a road trip -- they kick ass live.

[DBA]

Wow Geotpf, you bring up the exact arguments that numerous other people brought up hours earlier, nearly word-for-word, then you have the gall to call someone else an idiot. That's rich.

The guy you called an idiot is the father of an autistic child attempting to look at all the evidence to find a cause. Sometimes (just sometimes) in life, if you find the cause of something, you can find a way to reverse it. That's what the guy was researching, that's what the guy thought he needed to do to be a good father. And you flippantly call him an idiot.

Your lack of intelligence is telling. Your lack of compassion, more so.

[The Medic]

If vaccines don't cause Autism among other Horrible mental retardation then why does it say on the back of ever VIS I give to patients.." The National Vaccine Injury Compensation program: Int he rare event that you or your child has a serious reaction to a vaccine, a federal program has been created to help pay for the care of those who have been harmed.

For details about the national injury compensation program call 1-800-338-2382 or visit theor website at http://www.hrsa.gov/osp/vicp"

Vaccines kill hundreds of children every year, and Do cause Autism.

well just remember peopl, washing ones hands after doing an auptopsie to surgery didn't start until 1900s. Event hough a Dr in 1880 found the link between hand washing and bactria transfer.

They may not have the data now, but they will in another few years.

Most of the health care pros I work with, do NOT vaccinate their children.

Inculding me.

No needle will ever touch my childs flesh.
At 18, if they choose to take the HEP B, or A after going into a medical, food handling, or sex worker. Than they can get the shot.

Don't be fooled by this ruling folks.

For those who think vaccines are safe, take a good look at whats put in them, and follow the dose list. would you give an infant the same amount of live virus as a 5 yr old?

According to the CDC you can.
And well ladies and germs, take a GOOD look at who has dirty greedy hands int he pockets of those "nice" folks at the CDC.

Bet you'll find Merk,GlaxoKline...etc

Do your own homework.

the Medic

[Special Master SugarFree]

libertymike,

I reject anyone who comes here to tell me what I should or should not be concerned with. As DBA has consistently refused to recognize, I called him a Troofer because he was acting like one.

Do I think that the government should force kids to take vaccines? Nope. Does that mean vaccines are causing autism? Nope. Does the fact that the government forces kids to take vaccines say anything at all about vaccines and autism? Nope. Can you prove a negative (i.e. Mike E.: The fact is that NO ONE knows what causes autism. There is no proof that vaccines cause autism. There is no proof that they are not one of the causes.)? Nope.

See, there is no libertarian inconsistency unless libertarian consistency is defined as "believe anything as long as it is anti-government."

[The Medic]

Your Tax dollars pay for them. My clinic alone uses between 1200-5000$ a month in forced vaccinations.

If you don't want to pay for it. Say something about it.

[Citizen Nothing]

People, people. When we use words like "idiot" and "retard" on these threads, we do it with love.

Except in the case of idiot-retard "The Medic."

[The Medic]

I apologise for my horrible grammatical/ spelling errors. I'm typing through my phone. LOL

[the medic]

Bite my ass Nothing.

[Xeones]

Wow, this thread got fraught with bile in a hurry. Fraught, i say!

[Neu Mejican]

the Medic,

You may need to look at this table...

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

Be sure to note the number of claims of autism that received compensation compared to other problems. (hint 0 out of 402 that were adjudicated).

As for your assessment of healthcare workers rates of vaccination, the few reports I have seen on this indicate that healthcare workers and highly educated parents are MORE likely to vaccinate than the general population.

Just saying.

[highnumber]

I'm typing through my phone. LOL

OMG! ROTFLMAO!

[Jordan]

If vaccines don't cause Autism among other Horrible mental retardation then why does it say on the back of ever VIS I give to patients.." The National Vaccine Injury Compensation program: Int he rare event that you or your child has a serious reaction to a vaccine, a federal program has been created to help pay for the care of those who have been harmed.

Because some people experience serious allergic reactions to vaccines, as is the case with almost every medication ever made. Allergic reaction != autism.

Vaccines kill hundreds of children every year, and Do cause Autism.

Sigh. Evidence?

[Citizen Nothing]

...with his nose.

[DBA]

Sugarfree, you're so full of shit. I didn't come here to "tell {you} what {you} should or should not be concerned with," you presumptuous ass.

And what you have failed to realize is that I'm calling you a "presumptuous ass" because you are acting like one.

By the way, give me specifics on how my statements are analogous troofer statements, rather than that tripe you posted earlier. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.

[Citizen Nothing]

God. I love the Web.

[Kimmy]

"I apologise for my horrible grammatical/ spelling errors."

Fine. Apology accepted. But your stupidity doesn't get a pass.

[Neu Mejican]

Jordan,

Go to the link I put up above.

http://www.hrsa.gov/Vaccinecompensation/table.htm

Provides specifics on the kinds of harms that can be expected for various vaccines.

[Urkobold?]

"Dan O" (SUNG TO THE TUNE of "HEIGH-HO")

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To jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz is what I really like to do.
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Where a million nude blondes bloom!

I jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz from early morn till night.
I jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz jizz to everything in sight.
I jizz to nude blonds by the score.
A thousand websites, sometimes more.
But I don't know what I'm jizzin' for.
I jizz jizz jizz a-jizz jizz.

Dan O, Dan O,
Dan O, Dan O,
Dan O.

Chorus
Dan O, Dan O,
My bone's at work I know.
(Whistle)

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(Chorus)

Dan O, Dan O.
(Whistle)

Dan O, Dan O,
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(Chorus three times)

Dan O (until fade)

[JPaul]

Looks like Sugar Free needs to just move along. Brutal.

[Citizen Nothing]

Neu, do you ever get the urge to stop constructing understanding and just call someone an idiot?

[Neu Mejican]

Citizen Nothing,

Of course not...idiot.

;^)

[Pro Libertate]

Oh, dear. Well, civility died an early death in this thread, anyway, I guess.

[Jordan]

Jordan,

Go to the link I put up above.

http://www.hrsa.gov/Vaccinecompensation/table.htm

Provides specifics on the kinds of harms that can be expected for various vaccines.

I wasn't disputing that some people are harmed by vaccines. I was disputing that vaccines "Do cause Autism."

[Citizen Nothing]

Nicely played, Neu. Nicely played.

[Special Master SugarFree]

DBA,

You are a useless fuck. You want to know why? Because fucks ask for things they are already been given, and useless fucks ask for things they have already been given twice. Would you like to shoot for super-useless fuck?

Reading comprehension. Look into it.

[Special Master SugarFree]

Yeah, JPaul/DBA. You really showed me.

I'm going home, you kids play nice now.

[DBA]

Your're a lightweight. You popped off, and can't back it up. Take your balls and go home, do us a favor.

[Neu Mejican]

Serious adverse events after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination during a fourteen-year prospective follow-up.
Patja A, Davidkin I, Kurki T, Kallio MJ, Valle M, Peltola H.

Hospital for Children and Adolescents, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Several disorders have been attributed to measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination during the past decade. The aim of this prospective follow-up study was to identify serious adverse events causally related to MMR vaccination. METHODS: When the MMR vaccination program was launched in Finland in 1982, a countrywide surveillance system was set up to detect serious adverse events associated with MMR. To obtain detailed case histories vaccinees' clinical charts were reviewed. Serum samples were analyzed to trace concurrent infections. SETTING: All hospitals and health centers in Finland from 1982 through 1996. RESULTS: Immunization of 1.8 million individuals and consumption of almost 3 million vaccine doses by the end of 1996 gave rise to 173 potentially serious reactions claimed to have been caused by MMR vaccination. In all, 77 neurologic, 73 allergic and 22 miscellaneous reactions and 1 death were reported, febrile seizure being the most common event. However, 45% of these events proved to be probably caused or contributed by some other factor, giving an incidence of serious adverse events with possible or indeterminate causal relation with MMR vaccination of 5.3 per 100,000 vaccinees or 3.2 per 100,000 vaccine doses. CONCLUSIONS: Causality between immunization and a subsequent untoward event cannot be estimated solely on the basis of a temporal relation. Comprehensive analysis of the reported adverse reactions established that serious events causally related to MMR vaccine are rare and greatly outweighed by the risks of natural MMR diseases.

For those who want a sense of the risk to your child FROM MMR vaccine.

[Neu Mejican]

Jordan,

Sorry, I read your comment as about harm generally.

It is, as has been mentioned, impossible to rule out the idea that some individual may have ended up with Autism as a result of a reaction to a vaccination. Particularly given the fact that encephalopathy is a possible adverse outcome...but the risks are very, very, very, low.

[swillfredo pareto]

Vaccines kill hundreds of children every year

Setting aside the validity of that argument, how many lives do they save? Does that even enter into your argument or does the Precautionary Principle trump everything? Given the infinitesimally small chance that my children have an adverse reaction to a vaccine compared to the very real chance that they have an adverse reaction to any of the pathogens that cause the diseases these vaccines prevent it is not a hard decision. I don't drive around without my seatbelt just because there are 3 accidents each year made worse with the use of seatbelts.

[highnumber]

NM,

Every schoolchild knows the Finns are in the pocket of Big Pharma. Don't be a dupe!

[Jordan]

Sorry, I read your comment as about harm generally.

No problem. The data was interesting anyway.

[Pro Libertate]

NM,

That was the kicker for me and my wife come immunization time for my infant daughter. While I never took any of the anti-vaccine claims very seriously, I did take a look at the issue before we got the shots. But the risk of disease scared me a whole lot more than a very tenuous risk of some other condition. And, of course, anecdotally, I had never personally encountered anyone who'd had any problem with vaccines (other than maybe getting the chickenpox after receiving the vaccine, and even that is questionable).

[Hazel Meade]

I want to emphasize that you can "actually have" PDD-NOS. That can be the accurate diagnosis. It is possible to really have only some of the features needed for a more specific diagnosis. In essence an "NOS" diagnosis indicates that what you have is not something we have a more specific name for.

I think we're in general agreement but talking about the subject in two different ways.

PDD-NOS can also include kids that have a lot of symptoms of different things. Many kids diagnosed with PDD-NOS have some symptoms of autism and some symptoms of mental retardation. It's also a matter of debate whether PDD-NOS actually ought to be classified as part of the autistic spectrum. In itself PDD-NOS just means that the symptoms don't fit any specified pattern. Hence PDD-NOS could be a collection of different disorders that we just don't understand yet, which may have causes completely distinct from autism, even though they end up resulting in some similar symptoms. Thus the reluctance to apply data from studies of PDD-NOS kids to autistics and vice versa.

But yeah, I only have a minor in cog sci, and not a undergrad background in psychology, so I could be getting some terms mixed up.

[Neu Mejican]

Since we are talking about risk to your child, here is my soap-box issue.

I will declaim in the form of a question.

How many of the mothers who do not get their child vaccinated due to the "known risk" of autism, feel comfortable having a glass of wine every now and again while pregnant?

[context: prenatal alcohol exposure is the single largest preventable cause of mental retardation, with no safe exposure level yet identified, and with perhaps 1% of children having an identifiable impairment as a result of prenatal alcohol exposure. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome accounts for about 1 out of 10 of those children and costs the US upwards of $5 billion annually]

The reason I ask is this.

It is impossible to know if your one glass of wine will harm your child and it is impossible to know if the vaccine will harm your child, but someone is telling you you HAVE to get the vaccine, while someone else is telling you you SHOULDN'T have the glass of wine.

Does this dynamic create a different attitude towards the risk?

[yandus yillib]

I was disputing that vaccines "Do cause Autism."

Look you fucking retards, there is no dispute!

The government says they do not. Ergo, it is so.

I don't understand the confusion.

If you take your vaccines, wear your seatbelt, don't smoke, and follow the President's fitness regime you will be immortal.

Get with the fucking program.

[Neu Mejican]

Hazel,

Hence PDD-NOS could be a collection of different disorders that we just don't understand yet, which may have causes completely distinct from autism, even though they end up resulting in some similar symptoms.

Don't get caught in this trap when thinking about developmental disabilities like Autism/PDD. There is not a etiological dimension to the diagnosis. Autism is not like Trisomy 21 or Fragile X. It is a categorization based solely on the presentation of behavioral symptoms. No single underlying cause is assumed for Autism. In a certain sense, the label is used because the syndromes is idiopathic.

When an etiology is found that leads to Autism or PDD-NOS or whatever, (such as Fragile X), the child will receive a diagnosis based on the etiology, rather than the profile of symptoms.

So, for instance, we frequently give a diagnosis that looks like this.

Fragile X resulting in mental retardation and autism.

Another example is Rhett syndrome (one of the PDD). It is distinct from autism, in part, because an genetic etiological factor has been identified.

[Bob Smith]

"Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease."

Wanna bet that nearly all are Pakistani or Afghan immigrants from regions where Islamic clerics are telling the population that vaccination is a plot by Christians and Jews to destroy Muslims?

[Neu Mejican]

A nice explanation of PDD-NOS

http://www.med.yale.edu/chldstdy/autism/pddnos.html

[libertymike]

Bob Smith-

Wanna bet that you believe those statistics at face value?

[Bob Smith]

Just because some public health officals and other slaves to allopathic propoganda say that the sky will fall if they can't force your kids to be injected with vaccines does not make their chicken little prognostications credible.

"Allopathic propaganda"? Are you seriously arguing the lack of large-scale disease in the developed world is unrelated to vaccination? Smallpox and polio were once thought eradicated, but are coming back in Muslim countries where they refuse vaccination and is cross-infecting the first world. Guess which first-world children are getting infected?

[Bob Smith]

There is no inconsistency in libertarian principle between forced vaccination and being against forced helmet use. Unvaccinated children are disease vectors that can cause serious harm or death to those around them as well as themselves, while unhelmeted motorcycle riders harm only themselves.

[yandus yillib]

Smallpox and polio were once thought eradicated

Then the government needs to take immediate action and declare them eradicated.

Problem solved. Next.

[Bob Smith]

Wanna bet that you believe those statistics at face value?

The UK is lying about the number of confirmed cases of measles? Muslim clerics aren't commanding their mosques to refuse vaccination while at the same time Islamic immigration to the UK is at an all time high? What do you think the real number of measles cases is?

[libertymike]

Bob Smith-

Generally speaking, common sense, logic and experience teach us to accord very little credibility to statements, studies, statistics and the screams of the state and those who are subsidized by it. Disease and vaccination are not an exception.

Having said that, my primary concern is with the state forcing parents to inject their kids with any substance. The state does not know better.

BTW, have you ever read Death by Medicine? Do you know that iatrogenic death is one of the leading casue of death in the United States. Hundreds of thousands of folks die each year in our hospitals due to the fuck ups of allopathic physicians.

That is why I laugh when I hear the sheople rave about the US having "the best medical care in the world" or "the best medical minds in the world".

[libertymike]

Yes, Bob there is. Its called the non-agression principle. Just because some speculate that unvaccinated children may cause serious harm or death to others is no basis upon which to violate the non-agression principle. It is also no basis upon which to deviate from Solzhinitsyn's command that "the higher the ends the higher must be the means."

[yandus yillib]

You parents of autistic, PDD-NOS, Fragile X, or whatever children need to buck up and have those tots euthanized.

The village can no longer afford to raise them.

[libertymike]

Nor can the village continue to afford submarines, battle ships, destroyers, tanks, grenades, bunkerbusters, machine guns and rifles or the poorly educated, parasitic soldiers who use them to kill and committ war crimes.

[libertymike]

Bob Smith-

The UK? Oh, one is supposed to accord that socialist surveilance state some kind of credibility? You can't be serious.

[yandus yillib]

Nor can the village continue to afford submarines, battle ships, destroyers, tanks, grenades, bunkerbusters, machine guns and rifles or the poorly educated, parasitic soldiers who use them to kill and committ war crimes.

But they must do so to keep the homeland secure.

[DBA]

Billy, I know you are joking, but (trust me on this one), you aren't clever enough to make euthanizing autistic children funny.

In fact, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced nobody is clever enough to make that funny.

[libertymike]

Secure from what? Are you willing to die for principle that the mob has the right to take another's property in order to "keep the homeland secure?"

[yandus yillib]

make euthanizing autistic children funny.

Not comedy, just business.

[yandus yillib]

Are you willing to die for principle that the mob has the right to take another's property

Mob?

A little vague.

How about Officer (fill in the blank with an identifiable individual's name)is willing to take another's property.

And yes he is willing to die. That's his job because he is a hero.

You will respect his authoritah!

[lpcowboy]

The problem with vaccines isn't that they may lead to medical conditions, it is that they aren't cost effective.

Deregulate, drop the price, and you may have something. Otherwise, I say starve the beast.

[yandus yillib]

Deregulate

??????? Hold on there big guy. Where the hell do you think you live?

Regulation is the path to utopia. There will be no deregulation.

[Neu Mejican]

libertymike,

"Generally speaking, common sense, logic and experience teach us to accord very little credibility to statements, studies, statistics and the screams of the state and those who are subsidized by it. Disease and vaccination are not an exception."

Common sense and logic don't lead to paranoia, generally speaking.

Healthy skepticism is important when approaching any scientific claim (or any claim more generally), but credibility in the realm of medical research adheres more to the individual researcher than the funding sources.

Surely.

[yandus yillib]

The UK? Oh, one is supposed to accord that socialist surveilance state some kind of credibility?

So the socialist surveilance state you live in is better than those living under the crown?

Please, do tell.

[The Medic]

Ok Jordon, I will play your little game.

I did digress in anger and frustration; and for that I do apologize. Nothing, you really don't have to bite my ass as long as you bite Jordon's ass instead.

I have seen first hand what a vaccine did do to my own nephew. Despite the "studies" that have been done, his autism did not start until he received the second dose of vaccines.

He was in the 90% of growth and development for his age. His speech and walking was on target, he was chattering all the time, formulating words and sentences and feared nothing.

No less than a Week after that 2nd round he suddenly changed.

My sister saw weird habits begin; he started organizing things by size, color, shape, and texture. His chattiness stopped completely. He was no longer talking, and was shy and aggressive at the same time

. Horrified, and mortified my sister and her husband took him to three separate pediatricians, all said the exact same thing.
He was autistic.

The discrepancies in their opinions were,
1: Thought he had been born that way and something "triggered" the autism.
2: Thought he had just missed the autism.
3: Agreed that it was the 2nd series of shots.

The 3rd Dr who specialized in childhood development and mental and physical retardation did several tests over many visits.

My nephew now has autism because of the vaccines. Nothing else "environmentally", changed. My sister is one of those Moms who noted all the things her child did. (I would call that good parenting) No medication had been given, no new foods, no injuries or falls. The only thing that had changed was his new vaccines.

Now I have seen a mirage of insensitive just vile people on this board. For a group of libertarians, many of you are as shallow as the others. Some of you are mean, crass and just unhappy. And I pity you.

I don't pretend to know everything, but I can guarantee I know much more on the subject of health care then most of you. ( there are a few expectations on this board, many whom I would LOVE to extend a hand of conversation)

I have been in this profession for 12 years. Half was military, the rest in the private sector.

I am up-to-date on all the vaccines, and their components, chemicals, suppliers and even most of the lobbyist (who, by the way often have more then one hand in the back wallets of many of the board members of the CDC and FDA.) and big pharmaceutical companies. (The same ones that want to shut down herbal supplement companies and over regulate naturopathic medicine, a healthy alternative to most Western meds)

I am a very informed and educated about the options, risks and hazards. And that's why as a responsible health care professional, I have chosen not to vaccinate my children.

Many will argue that my children could be the cause of an "outbreak". Not true. The body is an amazing organism. You can develop passive immunity to most of the diseases they vaccinate you with. Many pro Vaccine folks argue that because of vaccines there is less illness and disease today then there was 100 years ago.

It was the discovery of how pathogens and disease were transferred. The rapid growth of illness and disease through out the big cities of the US at the turn of the century was stopped and slowed not by vaccines, but through good hygiene, hand washing, and the isolation of the sick.

I'm surrounded by people with the FLU, Viral syndromes, countless types and strains of colds.

I have not had a FLU vaccination in 12 years.
I've had the FLU once in my medical career. I just don't get sick.

I'm not alone.

It's called passive immunity. And children can develop the same thing. People can develop passive immunity to Polio, measles, Whooping cough, and many more diseases and viruses.

So while I do agree that vaccines alone aren't the cause for all autism, it is in the case of my nephew.
.

Do you know how stringent the demands of the CDC are when diagnosing autism? I didn't think you did.

While thousands have tried to fight the CDC they are shot down by big high paid oily lawyers.

If you want to poison you're children.

That's your choice.

But at least BEAWARE of the risks and dangers.

They may say there is no link, but they also used to have Drs endorsing cigarettes.

Be smart, and get educated. There is just as much info out there against vaccines as there are for pro vaccines.

The Medic

[GILMORE]

reminds me of Red vs Blue

"DuFresne: My name isn't Doc. It's DuFresne.

Church: Yeah, I can't pronounce that. So from now on, your name is Doc.

DuFresne: I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm not a doctor; I'm a medic.

Tucker: What's the difference?

DuFresne: Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable... while they die."

And I feel for the story about your nephew, but people have all kinds of stuff happen at times, and finding causes is (for someone who should know) often futile. Ever seen a family member descend into schizophrenia? People dont sit around going "why do most schizophrenics emerge around 21"? IS IT COLLEGE THATS DRIVING THEM NUTS?? Correlation of data as you know is mostly BS. Most of it is pretend-science that excludes dozens of other potential factors, including just *random bad luck*. Doesnt make it easier to endure, but thinking there's a "cause" out there is something common to people who see others go south. You want there to be an external catalyst. You dont want to admit that sometimes, lightening strikes, anvils fall from the sky, genes dont behave right, or God Gets Pissed... its sort of an inability to accept epistemic uncertainty. Get used to it brother.

[libertymike]

Neu-

I do not claim to know much about the link between MMR or other vaccinations, if any, and autism. I do not claim to have any of the studies, nor do I know anything about the methodologies employed.

What I do know something about is the effort on the part of allopathic "conventional" medicine to discredit and outlaw alternative and complementary medicine. I have first hand experience battling state medical, dental and nursing boards who have attempted to discipline their licensees for providing alternative treatment modalities. In each and every instance, there was no patient complaint that prompted the boards to act; rather, it was an allopathic provocateur who "complained" or an innocent, but ignorant "conventional" practitioner. In each case, the state got its head handed to it. For example, in one matter, the state dental board moved to sanction and threatened to yank the license of a dentist who advised the parents of minor patients that mercury fillings were bad news and that he would not use mercury. The "expert" the state hired, one Robert Baratz, MD, DDS was a fraud who puffed his resume, had filed frivolous lawsuits including one for assault against a seventy five year old five foot tiny female doctor, who had never pracitced denistry. Google him.

Neu, I do have practical reasons to be the healthy skeptic. Its just not theoretical.

[The Medic]

Liberty Mike, you can hang out with us any time!
🙂

[yandus yillib]

He was in the 90% of growth and development for his age. His speech and walking was on target, he was chattering all the time, formulating words and sentences and feared nothing.

No less than a Week after that 2nd round he suddenly changed.
...
Nothing else "environmentally", changed.

I call bullshit.

He became aware of what a "visit" to the doctor was all about.

He receive inspections, injections, and all kinds of mean nasty things.

At that early age, he came to the conclusion that people wanted to control and hurt him.

And while he may not have been able to articulate "fuck these assholes," that is what he did.

Then he went into his own little world.

[libertymike]

yandis-

Please. I wish that it was.

[The Medic]

Hey yandus,

You are inept and ignorant. One of the earliest recognizable signs of autism are strange behavior patterns, and changes in personality.

So you're trying to tell me that a healthy child suddenly changes his mind about how he feels about the world? When he hardly knows the difference between a duck and a puppy? (Snorting with laughter)

And how many children have you seen as a Pediatrician?

FYI after 2 years of speech and therapy the lil man is slowly starting to talk.

He is still socially withdrawn, and likes to organize all of his clothes by color.

So while he's Autistic, he's very organized. 😉

The Medic

[yandus yillib]

OK Libertymike, since you don't like to be forced to pay for these unhealthy babies, where do you stand on the government ordering the extermination of them?

You don't personally violate the ZAP, but your "contribution" is used to fund the killing.

On the other hand, if the kids "are allowed" to live you are forced to pay for them.

Save the navigator.

[libertymike]

The Medic-

Thank you.

Some here accuse me of being a "troofer" just because I do not buy the official government conspiracy theory. I do not claim to have any knowledge as to who actually was responsible. I have expressed doubts that 19 muslims with box cutters are responsible for it all. But, I do not advance other conspiracy theories.

What I do is harp on things like the fact that the United States government has a propensity to lie, kill, cheat and steal. It has a histroy of orchestrating false flag terror events. It has a history of making war and committing war crimes and exterminating people. Of course, many other governments have as well. The US is not alone. The thrust of my posts on this subject are just to express those points and that one would be a fool not to include this information in evaluating the questions of who and why.

[yandus yillib]

You are inept and ignorant.

Blow me Medic.

That said, the kid sounds like a savant to me.

Of course he changes his mind when presented with new things. Don't you?

Why do you think he is socially withdrawn?

I say he figured out this society is not his cup of tea.

[Neu Mejican]

the medic,

The 3rd Dr who specialized in childhood development and mental and physical retardation did several tests over many visits.

My nephew now has autism because of the vaccines. Nothing else "environmentally", changed. My sister is one of those Moms who noted all the things her child did. (I would call that good parenting) No medication had been given, no new foods, no injuries or falls. The only thing that had changed was his new vaccines.

This story makes me wonder what tests were performed that led your doctor to conclude that the vaccinations caused the autism. Being someone who is part of an interdisciplinary team that diagnoses autism on a regular basis, I do not know of any tests available that would allow the doctor to make this causal link (just because I don't know, doesn't mean they don't exist).

The behavioral pattern you describe is not unheard of in children diagnosed with autism and its coincidental timing relative to vaccinations is one of the primary reasons that research has been done in this area. The behavioral pattern you describe, however, would not be a sign that the vaccination was the cause. Absent some specific explanation, it is more likely that the vaccination is being blamed for an idiopathic syndrome.

Did your nephew's doctor give an explanation for the mechanism involved...(e.g., reaction to vaccination caused encephalitis which lead to damage in X region of the brain and we think it might be the cause of the autism)?

Regarding universal precautions/passive immunity...they only get you so far. Vaccination's benefits are clear at the group level.

Beware anecdotal evidence as your guide in these matters. It will lead you to spurious conclusions.

libertymike,

How does your sense of this conspiracy lead you to doubt the veracity of basic public health numbers? What would be the sense of intentionally skewing the incidence of a common communicable disease? How would that help the cause (assuming there is one)?

[yandus yillib]

What I do is harp on things like the fact that the United States government has a propensity to lie, kill, cheat and steal.

Medic you think that kid is unable to come to that same conclusion?

Does he know what hot is?

[Neu Mejican]

yandus yillib,

While there is reason to doubt that vaccinations can be blamed for the Medic's nephew's autism...

your speculation as to a cause is very far outside the realm of reality...floating alone in cuckoo land.

You don't have a clue about what you speak.

You are an idiot (hat tip to Citizen Nothing)

[yandus yillib]

Neu Mejican do you know what hot is?

And you might want to look up the etymology of idiot.

[libertymike]

yandus-

Of course I do not want to be forced to pay for any thing against my will-no matter how noble the thing may be. Keep in mind the cost of health care prior to 1965-the year Medicare was hatched. The average family could pay for the wast majority of the health care they needed out of pocket. What happens after gvt. gets involved? The price of the commodity that is subsidized rises beyond the reach of more and more people. In health care, it means folks need to acquire health insurance. Rent seekers seek subsidies.

Of course I will not contribute to the extermination of anybody, (other than cops and soldiers and defense contractors and anybody else that works for the gvt).

[Neu Mejican]

And you might want to look up the etymology of idiot.

No need.

I was conforming to the modern, most common usage.

[yandus yillib]

your speculation as to a cause is very far outside the realm of reality...floating alone in cuckoo land.

I'll stick with Occam. You go ahead and opt for the years of government approved/mandated training, decades of studies...

You don't need to stick your dick in a meat grinder the second time to "make sure" is is not a great idea.

[yandus yillib]

I was conforming to the modern, most common usage.

So what is the modern, most common usage of the term idiot savant?

[Neu Mejican]

yandus yillib,

If you have to stick your dick in a meat grinder to learn that it is a bad idea, you are more of an idiot than I thought.

As for Occam, you wouldn't recognize parsimony if it was mashed on a plate.

[yandus yillib]

Of course I will not contribute to the extermination of anybody

But the fact of the matter is you do.

So isn't better for you, at least economically, to eliminate those individuals you are forced to support?

[Neu Mejican]

So what is the modern, most common usage of the term idiot savant?

I didn't use the term "idiot savant."

[Neu Mejican]

I love that yandus yillib considers himself a savant.

Rich.

[libertymike]

Neu-

First, will you grant that there are those that will do almost anything to push their agenda?

Second, will you grant that there are those that will not hesitate to use the state as the vehicle to impose their will and/or get their way?

Third, will you grant that there have been men in the sciences, particularly medicine, who have manipulated data, fudged test and study results, drew conclusions at odds with the facts and/or hid/buried material facts and even lied all in an effort to get the state to their bidding?

Fourth, will you grant that there are rent seekers who would not hesitate to exxagerate the incidence of some disease or the dangers of not taking their medicine?

If you grant all of the above, the answer is obvious. Specifically, skewering the incidence of some communicable disease might make all the sense in the world to a rent seeking multi-national pharmaceutical company.

[yandus yillib]

I didn't use the term "idiot savant."

Perhaps you don't understand the term.

[yandus yillib]

you wouldn't recognize parsimony if it was mashed on a plate

You are correct sir.

[libertymike]

Neu-

I will grant that there are honest researchers that are inspired to find the truth even if the results of their work offends their sponsors/employers. IOW, I do not automatically dismiss the opinions and pronouncements of each and every individual medical researcher/scientist that is employed by the gvt. or Pfizer. After all, they could be anarcho-free enterprise-individualists in hiding just waiting to be converted by Fluffy or TakTix or Squarooticus.

[yandus yillib]

Specifically, skewering the incidence of some communicable disease might make all the sense in the world to a rent seeking multi-national pharmaceutical company.

I'm an old fuck. When I was a kid the doctor came to my house. Now I live in a world where the children don't leave the hospital without a SSN.

The parents of those children accept that.

That baby is their little tax deduction. If the kid has some sort of "need," the parents are eligible for benefits.

Perhaps, skewering the incidence of autism might make all the sense in the world to parents, doctors, hospitals, and drug companies if they can demonstrate need.

[yandus yillib]

Medic,

Face it, you caused the kid's autism.

You questioned authority in the presence of your nephew.

Now he thinks the world is full of people who have "a propensity to lie, kill, cheat and steal".

I can't blame the tot for wanting to stay home and sort his clothes.

My blue jeans never held me down while my boxers gave me an injection.

[highnumber]

I have been in this profession for 12 years. Half was military, the rest in the private sector.

Meletary dokter?

[wayne]

I think the issue isn't whether autism and retardation are the same exact disorder; the issue is whether autism has a genetic cause [like most types of retardation] or an environmental cause.

My wife's cousin birthed identical twin boys who are now about twelve years old. One has autism and the other does not. This, in itself, does not prove that autism has no genetic link as even "identical" twins go their own genetic way via random mutations. I just mention it here because it is interesting.

The mother of the twins is a big believer in the "vaccinations cause autism" thing. I don't think vaccines have anything to do with it, but I cannot bring myself to argue the point with her as she has enough to deal with.

[wayne]

Smallpox and polio were once thought eradicated, but are coming back in Muslim countries where they refuse vaccination and is cross-infecting the first world. Guess which first-world children are getting infected?

Smallpox IS eradicated. God (or Dog.. your preference) help the world if the virus escapes the confines of the labs where remaining virus is kept.

Polio has never been thought eradicated, although it is extremely uncommon in the developed (and vaccinated) world.

[KD]

While I agree that it would be great if more people are now vaccinated because of the court ruling... why is a court the one that is deciding on science?

The government/law system should have no basis in deciding what is scientific fact or not... double blind control studies (that don't rely on correlations as evidence either) should be the ones.

If anyone's read Gary Taubes, he's got all the evidence we need that the government has no place in science.

Isn't autism caused by geeks actually getting lucrative careers in computer programming and design which allows them to breed? In the past they would have been the village idiot or blogger.