Vaccine Court Decision Imperils Children's Health

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Infectious disease researcher Paul Offit decries in a New York Times op/ed the recent award of compensation to the family of Hannah Poling by the Federal Court of Claims under the the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Terry and Jon Poling asserted that Hannah became autistic after receiving nine childhood immunizations. Naturally, anti-vaccination autism campaigners hailed this decision. Offit points out:

In 2000, when Hannah was 19 months old, she received five shots against nine infectious diseases. Over the next several months, she developed symptoms of autism. Subsequent tests showed that Hannah has a mitochondrial disorder — her cells are unable to adequately process nutrients — and this contributed to her autism. An expert who testified in court on the Polings' behalf claimed that the five vaccines had stressed Hannah's already weakened cells, worsening her disorder. Without holding a hearing on the matter, the court conceded that the claim was biologically plausible.

On its face, the expert's opinion makes no sense. Even five vaccines at once would not place an unusually high burden on a child's immune system. The Institute of Medicine has found that multiple vaccines do not overwhelm or weaken the immune system. And although natural infections can worsen symptoms of chronic neurological illnesses in children, vaccines are not known to.

"There is no evidence that children with mitochondrial enzyme deficiencies are worsened by vaccines," Salvatore DiMauro, a professor of neurology at Columbia who is the nation's leading expert on the disorder, told me. Indeed, children like Hannah Poling who are especially susceptible to infections are most likely to benefit from vaccines…

The vaccine court should return to the preponderance-of-evidence standard. But much damage has already been done by the Poling decision. Parents may now worry about vaccinating their children, more autism research money may be steered toward vaccines and away from more promising leads and, if similar awards are made in state courts, pharmaceutical companies may abandon vaccines for American children. In the name of trying to help children with autism, the Poling decision has only hurt them.

A 2007 study found that childhood vaccinations have reduced hospitalization rates by 90 percent or more over the last century. As the New York Times reported:

Death rates for 13 diseases that can be prevented by childhood vaccinations are at all-time lows in the United States, according to a study released yesterday.

The study, by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, and published in The Journal of the American Medical Association, is the first time that the agency has searched historical records going back to 1900 to compile estimates of cases, hospitalizations and deaths for all the diseases children are routinely vaccinated against.

In nine of the diseases, rates of death or hospitalization declined more than 90 percent since vaccines against them were approved, and in the cases of smallpox, diphtheria and polio, by 100 percent.

In only four diseases — hepatitis A and B, invasive pneumococcal diseases and varicella (the cause of chickenpox and shingles) — did deaths and hospitalizations fall less than 90 percent. Those vaccines are all relatively new — the one for chickenpox, for example, was adopted nationally only in 1995. Also, some diseases like hepatitis typically strike adults, who are less likely to be immunized.

Whole Offit op/ed here.

Some reason reporting on the autism/vaccine myth here.

Disclosure: I was vaccinated against hepatitis A and B, tetanus and Japanese encephalitis in December.

NEXT: Hillary's Southern Crossroads

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  1. Obviously, Bailey is in the pocket of Big Vaccine.

  2. I thought the argument was that the mitochondrial defect made a small fraction of kids highly sensitive to mercury.

    If true, this would be solved by thimerosal free formulations.

  3. I thought the argument was that the mitochondrial defect made a small fraction of kids highly sensitive to mercury.

    The real argument is “My baby is fucked up, and I want somebody to pay for it.” John Edwards will no doubt applaud the jury’s decision.

    The price of vaccines will go up. This is to help the poor, of course.

  4. Actually, JsD, most (though wierdly, not all) childhood vaccines are price controlled.

  5. I’ve had vaccines and my health isn’t perfect. Can I shakedown sue pharmaceutical companies too?

  6. There’s a “vaccine court”? Holy shit!

    I remember the collapse of Soviet communism like it was yesterday. I wonder if I will ever be old enough to remember the collapse of American nannyism.

  7. I’m not a doctor, and I don’t play one on television, but…

    I’ve learned, by virtue of friends who have mitochondrial disease in the family, that it’s a real wildcard. There are, like, thousands of variations ranging in severity from allergy-like to stillbirth. The effects are also all over the map, as you would expect from cells processing energy “differently” — what kind of cells, how differently?

    I think the vaccines-cause-autism argument should be weighed with approximately the same seriousness as the possibility that jealous siblings are time-traveling back and using future technology to inflict autism on their siblings. That is, for the sarcasm impaired, that it is devoid of scientific support.

    However, I think the court’s judgement in this case is defensible. If mitochondrial disease caused the autism — itself a rarity — could vaccines have worsened the mitochondrial disease? Well, maybe. It seems fair to settle.

    Fair, except for the parents squawking to the media: ‘See! “autism”, “vaccine” in the same paragraph! The vast Pro-Vaccine conspiracy is revealed! ‘

    So, now kids of frightened parents can get neurological damage the good, old-fashioned way, with measles.

    Sigh.

  8. My son just received 3 vaccinations today, including the chicken pox. The ped always asks if I have any concerns and I always reply, “nope, I’ve assessed the risk and determined it to be negligible. Go right ahead.”

    I have a friend who frequently sends “literature” regarding autism and vaccines. Of course, he son is autistic has several other immunological issues. Instead of thinking, “my son was in a risk category, his vaccinations should have been spread out” the thinking goes, “it’s the vaccinations that did it!”

    It’s what happens when people who know little to nothing about science, and who therefore don’t know how to read and evaluate scientific literature even when they try, decide to play doctor.

    I think I fubar’d my commas there, but you get the idea.

    Anyway, the potential consequences of this vaccine court decision are indeed perilous.

  9. Let me see if I have this straight:

    The State essentially forces parents to medicate their children as the State sees fit.

    Parents think child is harmed by the above State coercion.

    Parents seek recourse in what most libertarians think is a valid government function, the court system.

    Parents win.

    This is a bad thing.

    I keep getting lost around that last sentence.

  10. Cab,

    You listed 5 steps, you left one out. Step 3B: the courts made the wrong decision.

    Even in those cases where the system is correct, it still isnt perfect.

  11. You’re just a shill for Big Vaccine! Oh damn, DA beat me to it.

    Ummmm… your pro-vaccine, anti-freedom agenda has been quite clear for some time.

    (Disclosure: I was vaccinated for the flu in November.)

  12. I’m all for allowing parents not to chose to vaccinate their children, provided their health insurance premiums are adjusted appropriately.

    Also, if a child who has been vaccinated, but the vaccination didn’t “take”* picks up a communicable disease from a child who was never vaccinated, the parents of the former can sue the ######## off the parents of the latter.

    *There is always a percentage – usually tiny – which does not acquire immunity from vaccination.

  13. There’s a “vaccine court”? Holy shit!

    We have a special court (actually a part of the Federal Claims Court) for liability related to vaccines to protect pharmaceutical companies from crazy tort settlements that would discourage the production and use of the vaccines. The government pays any judgments due to plaintiffs here, shielding the vaccine makers.

    Do we need such a special court? Plaintiff’s lawyers sued the silicon breast implant industry into bankruptcy based on junk science. Tort awards for children who require lifetime care would dwarf the awards due to women with bad implants.

  14. At this moment, I’m not convinced of the validity of the court’s finding one way or the other…I’m not knowledgeable enough about the situation. I certainly wouldn’t assume the Court made the wrong decision just because it backs up my preconceived notion that vaccine-autism linkers are moonbats.

    According to the article “there might be individual sporadic, or rare cases in which patients have an adverse reaction after a dose of a vaccine that might exacerbate a pre-existing condition.”

    The way I see it, if one-in-a-million is hurt by vaccines, then one-in-a-million ought to be compensated. I think there ought to be a remedy for individuals hurt by forced State action, regardless of the good intent of the forced State action.

  15. Parents seek recourse in what most libertarians think is a valid government function,

    Calling the “Vaccine Injury Compensation Program” something most libertarians think is a valid government function is a bit of a stretch:

    The VICP is a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system for resolving vaccine injury claims that provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. The U.S. Court of Federal Claims decides who will be paid. Three Federal government offices have a role in the VICP:

    the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS);
    the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ);
    and the U.S. Court of Federal Claims (the Court).

    The VICP is located in the HHS, Health Resources and Services Administration, Healthcare Systems Bureau, Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation.

    Couple that federal legislatively created unholy alliance of government agencies with the absurdly meaningless (in practice — how hard is it to pay an expert to make a claim sound “plausible”) standard of “scientifically plausible” and this looks nothing like a court system most libertarians would support.

  16. Disclosure: I was vaccinated against hepatitis A and B, tetanus and Japanese encephalitis in December.

    I find this disclosure to be entirely insufficient.

    …what about all the non-Japanese varieties of Encephalitis? Have you already had the measles? Was it a secret government experimental radioactive serum used on you in the 1950s that made you so unusually tall??

    What are you hiding, Ron Bailey!? Who are you really working for?!!!

    …And remember to get the dip-tet first, H-I, you gotta get your dip-tet.

    I’ll be taking these Huggies, and uh… any cash you got.

  17. Vaccine / Autism fears are utter bullshit.

    Since the removal of the evil mercury-related chemicals that allegedly caused autism in vaccines, autism diagnoses have remained stead and even grown in some cases.

    Further, all of the most thorough studies on this issue have turned up no link (coincidental or otherwise) between autism and vaccines. This entire fear is anecdote driven.

    For anyone interested, the New England Skeptical Society (and their excellent podcast “The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe) has covered this issue extensively. You can search their archive through Itunes. It’s the best non-radio on the internet.

  18. Vaccine / Autism fears are utter bullshit

    Dude, quiet. Boat payments don’t make themselves.

  19. Actually, JsD, most (though wierdly, not all) childhood vaccines are price controlled.

    As the cost of providing vaccines goes up, the price will as well. Unless we ration them.

  20. Do they make a vaccine for protection against shyster lawyers? I guess simple garlic works in their case, though.

  21. Good old Libertarianism, totally blind anything that involves cooperation.

    The reason why we have a special Vaccine court, ladies and gentlemen, is that vaccination is a special case. While your average layman believes that vaccination is to protect their own child from measles or diptheria, it is well known scientifically that by no means do most vaccines confer absolute immunity against their target disease. What vaccines really do is lower the infection rate from a disease exposure, but there often remains a substantial risk all the same.

    This serves a valuable social purpose, however. An epidemic can only happen if each infected person infects more than 1 other person. Otherwise it burns itself out. A population where everyone is vaccinated, if that drops the infection rate just a hair below one, that’s enough to prevent an epidemic.

    So for this reason, people are basically not told the whole truth – that no the vaccine won’t totally protect your child, but – if all the children get vaccinated, they’ll be by and large safe from the disease. So it’s a social good more than an individual one. Can Libertarians appreciate that?

    And as we want everyone to get vaccinated, of course there should be price controls. And as it’s just totally not fair to force people to care for a child permanently damaged by a vaccination that was really for the good of society and not so much for that child itself – a compensation fund. Which is not the same as suing the vaccine maker, anyway.

    Next week, I’ll explain to y’all why we need roads. See you guys, I’m off to reread Atlas Shrugged.

  22. trollumination –

    Thanks. Nobody here has ever heard of Herd immunity.

  23. I’ve assessed that the danger of me coming down with a contagious disease is about one in a hundred million, so why bother with a vaccine? After all, driving to the doctor’s office to receive the vaccine has a far higher risk of fatality.

    Don’t tell me that if everyone thought that way, we’d have plagues. If even ten people came down with a plague disease, it would instantly make global news and nearly everyone would clamor for vaccines before it could spread any further. Personally, I’d wait until the first three hundred Americans die, that is, once the chance is greater than one in a million.

    So why are we spending billions of dollars and inconveniencing millions of children for a danger that, at most, will likely only affect a dozen people?

    If you ask me, if anyone’s living in the past over this issue, it’s the people who are using a model of epidemology that’s been outdated for decades. And given that they’re possibly doing so in order to make higher profits and expand bureaucratic empires, I wonder if they’d also be inclined to sweep real vaccine-autism link statistics under the rug.

    Oh, but wait — they’re in public agencies, and as good libertarians all know, public agencies always tell the truth and are immune to corruption by private interests!

  24. When I was in college, there was a measles outbreak at a university (in ohio if I remember correctly) and some students died. My school (GWU) freaked and put in place a policy in which all students had to either prove that they had been vaccinated or had to get a shot immediately.

    My parents had just moved and they did not know where my records had gone and so I got the shot. I got so sick I was bedridden for almost two days — whether it was the measles, mumps or rubella I have no idea (the shot was for all three) but I was definitely ill.

    My point: vaccines are not 100% risk free, but there was a fairly recent outbreak and people died… so they remain a good idea.

  25. I’m prepared to believe vaccines don’t cause autism and thimeresol doesn’t harm babies. However, when people lie and say “they removed the thimeresol” then I take my kid to the pediatrician and when they get a flu shot or tenatus shot and the nurse says “there is no mercury” and then I ask to see the insert and we both look at it and I show them the “thimeresol” clearly writen at the top of the ingredients list. I have to wonder why are you lying about it? why do people on here act as if thimresol has been taken out when it hasn’t?

  26. Cab,
    Let me see if I have this straight:

    The State essentially forces parents to medicate their children as the State sees fit.

    — Libertarians indicate that it is wrong for the State to force people to take medication. Any coercion is wrong.

    Parents think child is harmed by the above State coercion. Parents seek recourse in what most libertarians think is a valid government function, the court system. Parents win. This is a bad thing. I keep getting lost around that last sentence.

    I do not know about ‘most’ Libertarians. I know that there is no legitimate role for the State, except to not exist. Besides that, the issue with the court decision is that it places the burden of guilt on the drug company, instead of on the State for imposing these vaccines in the first place (and I am talking about the ethical issue of shifting the blame, regardless if the vaccines are to blame or not).

  27. So, who am I supposed to believe, Ron? You or Mr. Imus? 🙂

  28. Then the same people tell you that kids should ingest fluorine proportional to the amount of water they drink. Science be damned, for this one drug we need to shove down all the humans throats in what amounts to random quantities.

    Dosage measurements? What are you some wussy conspiracy theorist just drink a gallon of this. Sodium fluoride is good for your brain, the governemnt loves you….science and reason say so…it libertarian.

  29. As long as people are forced to kick into this fund, I’d be extremely generous in doling it back out. We shouldn’t let gov’t come out $ ahead on any program if we can help it, because it’ll only encourage them to impose more.

  30. Good old Libertarianism, totally blind anything that involves cooperation.

    You mean, division of labor, capital investment, markets… NONE of that involves cooperation? Or what do you mean by ‘cooperation’?

    The reason why we have a special Vaccine court, ladies and gentlemen, is that vaccination is a special case.

    Circular thinking.

    What vaccines really do is lower the infection rate from a disease exposure, but there often remains a substantial risk all the same. This serves a valuable social purpose, however.[…] people are basically not told the whole truth – that no the vaccine won’t totally protect your child, but – if all the children get vaccinated, they’ll be by and large safe from the disease. So it’s a social good more than an individual one. Can Libertarians appreciate that?

    Can you appreciate cogent arguments? First, you Beg the Question by assuming people do not know the basic characteristics of a vaccine – you just assume people are “not told the truth”, as if people were dolts – so that you can argue that vaccination is a “social good”. Second, you assume that people would not vaccinate their children if given a choice, BUT YOU CANNOT KNOW THAT. IF vaccines give a child a chance of not getting diseases, most parents would opt to have their children vaccinated, if they followed this incentive (people respond to incentives, don’t you know that?). So, even if a few or some people do not vaccinate their children, most would, if given the choice – most people vaccinate their cats and dogs, and those are not mandatory, so why would parents act differently altogether?

    And as we want everyone to get vaccinated, of course there should be price controls.

    Wait… This is a non sequitur. Where do you conclude one from the other?

    And as it’s just totally not fair to force people to care for a child permanently damaged by a vaccination that was really for the good of society and not so much for that child itself – a compensation fund.

    Why would it not be fair? If it is for the good of society, and by the way you are rationalizing this, the social good outweighs the individual’s rights, how come the individual have a right to compensation for his or her sacrifice for the greater good? This is called Inconsistent Logic – you cannot have your cake and eat it, too.

    Which is not the same as suing the vaccine maker, anyway.

    Stop – you just made less sense. A person could sue the vaccine maker if the company sold a defective product, but that would be if the individual considered the vaccine as a product and not a selfless act of devotion towards the “greater good”.

    Next week, I’ll explain to y’all why we need roads. See you guys, I’m off to reread Atlas Shrugged.

    We need roads? Since when?

  31. We need roads? Since when?

    That was the only part where he did make sense, but you were on a great roll.

    We need roads for commerce, of course. Also, the federal government is allowed to build them through the postal roads clause of the Constitution of the United States of America, kind sir.

    Not that the feds should engage in everything that they are Constitutionally allwed to do, but at least it is something they do that they are expressly allowed to do.

  32. You’re obviously right, Gabe. Fluoridation is obviously a communist plot to rob us of our precious bodily fluids.

  33. “Dr. Paul Offit disclosed that he holds a patent on a rotavirus vaccine and receives grant money from Merck to develop this vaccine. He also disclosed that he is paid by the pharmaceutical industry to travel around the country and teach doctors that vaccines are safe.”

    extract from http://vaccinationnews.com/rally/openstmntconint.htm

    To vax or not is up to the individual, but before you listen to who is talking, you maybe need to look at who is paying them.

    It’s not just thimerosal that can cause problems. There are so many other toxic substances in vax and some that people might find morally objectionable… animal tissues (a problem if you are vegetarian) and cells derived from aborted fetuses (Catholics?)

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/238012/fetal_tissue_and_the_production_of.html
    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0044.html

    Also remember there have been no studies to say that giving children several shots in one session are safe, even though Offit says “each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time.”

    He doesn’t sound very wise does he? I don’t know about you, but I just can’t trust a guy who would say something that is so obviously stupid.

    Maybe it’s the overload of vax, maybe it’s the ingredients, maybe it’s the combination of both on already compromised immune systems. This is an interesting article on the health of children who aren’t vaccinated.

    http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Health/2005/12/07/the_age_of_autism_a_pretty_big_secret/6829/

    Good luck to everyone (like myself) with children, there is a lot of confusing stuff out there. It’s harder and harder for us to make good choices now… in the old days people just listened to their docs and no one knew any better.

    Now what you can do is educate yourself on both sides of the issues, we have had a lot of pro vax indoctrination, which needs to be re-examined.

    Before having a baby and researching all of this I was ambivalent about vaxes…now I am much more inclined to be anti-vax or at least in favor of selectively vaxxing.

    http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/user_friendly.pdf

    Knowledge is power.

  34. Knowledge is power.

    I thought opium was power?

  35. Why is it that the links that argue vaccination is dangerous never seem to be to reputable science journals or have “.edu” at the end?

  36. Why is it that the links that argue vaccination is dangerous never seem to be to reputable science journals or have “.edu” at the end?

    Because the universities have ‘sold out’ to Big Pharma?

  37. Cain,
    Why does the concept of “controlling the dosage” cause so much sarcasm on your part? Do you in fact believe that our sodium fluoride ingestion should be proportional to our water intake? is that the best dossage. And drinking on elie of tap water @ 1ppm of sodiuom fluoride is equal to eating one cubic centimeter of toothpaste. Why do you think this is such a good thing? Many studies have shown that topical use of sodium fluoride is best for tooth-decay prevention while ingestion can cause IQ reduction and tooth decay.

  38. @Susie:

    You know what’s better than scientific studies? Data-less hypothesizing? You keep on keeping on.

    @Gabe

    Got links to those “many studies”?

  39. sure…

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/brain/#human

    I assumed nobody would question that high levels of sodium fluoride is damaging to brains. Do your own study, go home and eat a tube of toothpaste.

  40. To JsubD:The price of vaccines will go up
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    Currently the VICP is funded by approx 75 cents per dose of vaccine. This has been in place for decades. But it goes well beyond vaccine prices going up when you realize the lifetime care costs of severely autistic children, loss of faith in doctors, etc.

    You guys should look up some of the facts on the diseases at http://www.cdc.gov, health topics A-Z. Look at individual diseases, realize the failure rates of the vaccines, transmissability, treatment options, etc.

    Some of you guys talk about measles like it is some big mystery. Sure, if you do not have enough vitamin A in your system its going to screw you up pretty bad. Thats why third world countries have such a hard time with it due to poor nutritional status.

    Used to be, back in the day, they would have chicken pox parties so every kid could get it while young. Just wait until the vaccinated get it as an adult when it will potentially kill them.

  41. I tried to post this earlier but I do not think it went through. Sorry if this is repost.

    It is known that glutathione is an amino acid that helps the body clear out heavy metals. If you are low on glutathione, you cannot clear them as quickly and they can accumulate in your body and cause neurological damage.

    Some research has shown that some severely autistic kids have very low glutathione levels. Glutathione is produced in part in the mitochondria and therefore it makes sense that those challenges can be magnified in a body that cannot help itself.

    Doctors and health authorities need to start paying attention to the additional challenges of certain individuals, and allow more waivers or provide better screening for x y or z that equals severe reaction in some kids.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15585776?ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    Also of interest an informal survey was done on the mothers of autistic kids at one of the conventions. Granted it is a small sample, not “scientific”, but should make you go hmmmm.

    IN the normal population, those with a blood type ending in a negative (Rh-) is about 15% of the total population. Women who are Rh- are given a drug called Rhogam to prevent hemolytic disease of the newborn. Now there are mercury free versions of this shot, but previously women were given two with each birth. It is life saving drug, one that can be made without mercury. Of the moms at the autism meeting, something like a whopping 45%-55% were Rh- and therefore recieved Rhogam or similar shots during/after pregnancy. Therefore, the fetus already got that mercury exposure before birth, possibly explaining those cases that were not “regressive autism” because they already had their mercury concentrated in them as fetuses.

    Just a thought.

    Next time you meet a mom of an autistic child, ask them if they are Rh-.

  42. Lynn,
    Freedom means forced flu vaccines and extra thimerosal(yay mercury)!

    If people don’t like the thimeresol we will have Ron Bailey write a article claiming it has been taken out of “ALL THE VACCINES”!.

    Yes instead of talking about the long history of mercury being a poision(then we could have reasonable arguments about dosage risk) we will just LIE and say it isn’t in the flu vaccine anymore…nice job Ron you lose your credibility with that one.

    Only a nut would think Mercury given to a pregnant women could cause problems. Reason and the government agree, Mercury is good for you. The same people that intentionally gave syphillis to black people would never do anything to harm us. Now someone please bring Buckley back from the dead to purge all these nutballs from the movement.

  43. From Offits op ed, let us look closely at what the devil incarnate has to doublespeak:
    Offit says “As part of the program, a group of scientists, doctors and lawyers listed all the health problems that might be linked to vaccines. The oral polio vaccine could in rare cases cause paralysis, for example, and an early version of the rotavirus vaccine might cause intestinal blockage. (In the interest of full disclosure: I am a co-inventor and co-patent holder of a newer rotavirus vaccine.)”

    Lets see….the rotashield vaccine that was KNOWN to cause intestintal blockage, and killed several babies and subsequently pulled…anyone care to guess who owned THAT patent and simply doesnt mention it? That would be Offit. He isnt just current patent owner, he owned the one for Rotashield.

    He got up before the ACIP to speak about mandating Rotashield. The ACIP (part of the regulating body that mandates vaccines for children) actually MANDATED the vaccine before it recieved FDA approval.

    Additionally, it is well known that the ONLY cases of polio in this hemisphere are VACCINE INDUCED by the live virus vaccine. Error of omission or just plain dishonesty?

    I swear every time I see this mans name, I think he should be jailed for trying to exert such influence over vaccine policy.

    On a side note, for those who are worried that drug companies wont make the vaccines….just make them without mercury! And if they decide to use mercury, thanks to the “Lilly rider”, added onto the homeland security bill in the 24th hour (noone seems to know how it got there) absolves Eli Lilly from any legal action as a result of their product thimerosal. Chaching goes the money makers.

  44. All these lies and conspiracy theories can be dismissed rather easily. I’ll address each argument point by point. We weren’t really lying about the thimeresol, don’t ask to see the insert on your flu shot just trust us.

    Bottom line, PHD’s who do occasional consulting work for Bayer and Merck have never hurt anyone. If they happen to be very important at the FDA then they know more than any of us could possbilly know,if they say so then the rest of the country should be forced to buy their vaccines otherwise we’d have anarchy. Scientist say mercury is good for you….Are you anti-science?

  45. I am not sure Cosmotarian who you suggest is proposing conspiracy theories, but I would love to see you provide something in terms of backup (I can’t even tell if you are being sarcastic nor which side of the argument you are falling on.)

    Offit doesn’t just advise the ACIP, he is patent holder. Also, he holds an MD and chief of infectious diseases at Childrens hospital in Philly as well as professor at University of Penn med school. I wonder how many interns he has influence over with his tainted world view. (Chaching.) He is set to make far more than just a few thousand dollars by pushing his vaccines down the ACIPs throat as well as the public at large with all of his “expertise”.

    And do not worry that 80% of people are given partial or misinformation about the vaccines prior to vaccinating. No need for informed consent rights for patients. They should just “do what their godlike deity doctors tell them to do because doctors know better than them and just shut the hell up!” (TIC)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11158491?dopt=Abstract

    And do not worry that such conflicts of interest are readily given waivers by the governing bodies they advise to. It is all about public safety, right? (TIC)

    One can find the govt reform committee page on this (my old link directly to Burtons inquiry wont work), but here is a nice paraphrased synopsis. http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

    Note the timeline of ACIP and VRBAC vs FDA approval. Pay close attention to the types and quantities of conflicts of interest in the various boards. Nothing to sneeze at.

    Just a thought for those rational thinkers.

    Oh, and the EPA estimated the vaccines were previously well above EPA standards, but the FDA and CDC had different standards. Detractors said the EPA standards were for the dosage of mercury over time which would be “safe”. Sure, aspirin is safe over time too. But take the entire “safe dose” at one time as vaccines/mercury is given and lets see what happens. It is only the most poisonous substance on earth.

  46. Fortunately, journalists are speaking against the court decision. Parents who read their articles should question the judges wisdom and research more before cancling vacinations.

  47. yes jtuf, fortunately the journalist also recognize we need to protect corporations like Bechtel and Merck. Their thin lobbying budgets can only procure a few government contracts a year. If they can’t help the government pass laws FORCING all of America to take their injections or to build new foreign bases then they could suffer stagnant growth projections! We all know that if these two companies do not have positive earnings growth that we’d just be left with extremist type dog-eat-dog competition.

    We need to help implement “the third way” a peaceful corporate government partnership that will benefit the collective.
    This is what Reason and Science tell us is optimal. Part of this new cooperation means we need to manage the civilian population with medication programs the way the collective sees fit. Now what kind of radical spasmodic conspiracy theorist would be against making thimerosal injections a legal requirement? Lynn that is who, she is the most dangerous kinda of radical….practically homegrown terrorism material right here amongst us Reason lovers.

  48. We need to help implement “the third way” a peaceful corporate government partnership that will benefit the collective.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    LOL I think someone has been watching too much Star Trek.
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    This is what Reason and Science tell us is optimal. Part of this new cooperation means we need to manage the civilian population with medication programs the way the collective sees fit. Now what kind of radical spasmodic conspiracy theorist would be against making thimerosal injections a legal requirement? Lynn that is who, she is the most dangerous kinda of radical….practically homegrown terrorism material right here amongst us Reason lovers.
    ~~~~
    IF you choose to discuss things in terms of reason, you should provide some facts. I gave you quite a few peer reviewed articles to choose from, from journals such as pediatrics. I also gave you House govt reform committee and other conflict of interest info, yet you are completely unable to discuss them without your pathetic name calling.

    Argument ad hominem.

    Clearly you cannot reason, nor have you seen any of the science.
    Got any facts or shall we simply take your word for it?

  49. The real problem is that it seems it is mostly boys who have this genetic predisposition to not be able to pass the 25 mcg of mercury through harmlessly. Girl babies are less likey to have a problem processing the mercury.

    So we need something different to start killing off/sterlizing/lobotomizing a bunch of girls…especially the lower class girls. We also need more revenue for drug companies. So lets make it mandantory that all teenage girls have to get a HIV vaccine injection….even though the vaccine will only prevent 5 of 150 types of HPV(rendering it completely useless) and nevermind that HPV is harmless in 90% of the people who already carry it….we’ll just link it to cervical cancer and then we can market our new vaccine as “the Girl Cancer Vaccine” and we can lobby to make the states require ALL their girls to take it!

    This will make big money…who likes cancer? and who doesn’t want to save teenage girls from STDs? this is another win/win. Get Ronald Bailey on the phone, we need him to talk about how this is a libertarian idea, you know to shut up all the wacko libertarians.

  50. Oh I would not stoop to arguing with a conspiracy theorist, heck you’d probably have the audacity to wonder why the 47 story WTC7 fell down in demolition style:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

    only a moron would question such things it is obvious the government is good! Inject your babies with mercury(it is not a poison) and take your shoes off at airport security it is all for the good of the collective.

  51. The real problem is that it seems it is mostly boys who have this genetic predisposition to not be able to pass the 25 mcg of mercury through harmlessly. Girl babies are less likey to have a problem processing the mercury.

    So we need something different to start killing off/sterlizing/lobotomizing a bunch of girls…especially the lower class girls. We also need more revenue for drug companies. So lets make it mandantory that all teenage girls have to get a HIV vaccine injection….even though the vaccine will only prevent 5 of 150 types of HPV(rendering it completely useless) and nevermind that HPV is harmless in 90% of the people who already carry it….we’ll just link it to cervical cancer and then we can market our new vaccine as “the Girl Cancer Vaccine” and we can lobby to make the states require ALL their girls to take it!

    This will make big money…who likes cancer? and who doesn’t want to save teenage girls from STDs? this is another win/win. Get Ronald Bailey on the phone, we need him to talk about how this is a libertarian idea, you know to shut up all the wacko libertarians.~Cosmo

    ~~~~~~~~~

    Ah, now I see. You are being completely sarcastic. Being new here, I do not know the tone a person writes with. (Simply, something is lost in this method of communication…things like tone and inflection.)

    Maybe the genetic predisposition is the shortage of glutathione as well as other heavy metal removing “good chemicals of the body.” There is also research that suggests that high levels of testosterone are partly to play with regards to autism/mercury challenge.

    The theory is, percoccious puberty/very high testosterone in males or high levels of testosterone in girls can have an affect on severity of autism. The reasoning behind that is that mercury binds in very tight sheets with testosterone, and is not easily removed by current methods such as chelation (commonly accepted practice for removing heavy metals.) Because they have so much testosterone, the mercury becomes stuck in the body, wreaking havoc.

    Add to it that testosterone is responsible for aggression….then talk to a parent of an autistic child and step into their shoes for a day.

    People need to check their facts, especially the bonehead that wrote this article with a clearly biased point of view (just look at the title.)

  52. Oh I would not stoop to arguing with a conspiracy theorist, heck you’d probably have the audacity to wonder why the 47 story WTC7 fell down in demolition style:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM
    ~~~~~~~

    Nonsequitor.

    Are you able to discuss the topic at hand with any intelligence?

  53. ya sorry to do that to you Lynn.

    “Cosmotarian Overlord” comes out of me here sometimes when I read what passes for libertarian ideas on this web site. It is insanely funny only to me that Ron Bailey can pretend(or actually does) take such a harsh ill-researched view of people who have had their kids changed from bright playful little humans into lobomitized drones after being injected with mercury…to either deny that mercury is clearly potentially harmful or lie and say it isn’t in vaccines anymore is completely irresponsible.

    Some people can process the 25 micrograms some can’t….to then say that those who can’t are just genetically broken so it isn’t anyones fault is pretty weak. To then keep putting mercury in flu shots and increasing the marketing budget 10 fold on that program is a little scary.

  54. calling you a “conspiracy theorist” is just a way of imitating the way many of the people on here argue in favor of whatever statist idea is being pushed by Reason on that particular day.

    On WTC 7…none them will look at the info and say yes we are being lied to the 9/11 commission was a coverup operation and their is no fucking way the governemnt story makes sense. No every CIA analyst every retired air force genereal every former head of state every MI6 retiree who says the governemnt is lying is just another “conspiracy tehorists” no matter what the evidence says.

    If Michal Young writes another “Yeah Iraq War” article and you disagree then you are just a “isolationist” or a “anti-semite” no arguments

    If Steve Chapman writes a article saying it is a GOD idea to require $1000 breathalyzers in athe cars of all people convicted of DUI’s then we are told you are anti-science if you disagree witht he implication of his stats.

    If you tell “Pro-global-carbon-tax” or “cap in trade” Ron Bailey about Richard Lindzen(MIT meterologist or numerous other scientist who make it clear there is no consensus saying manmade CO2 is the cause of massive future problems….well your just a denialist(almost as bad as the anti-semitic kind is the smear you should be take away from that).

    Point ou that your jewish and love jews, doesn’t matter. Point out your just kinda sticking to individualist kinda ideas like the right to control what is injected in your own baby, doesn’t matter. Point out that it shouldn’t be a sin to not trust the governemtn and doesn’t matter. The Willaim Buckley dies and they have a n orgy because he was so great at kicking ou tall the wackos and he gave us the wonderful revolution that has given us the NEO-CONS….see how thankful you should be? it is all so cosmopolitan.

  55. -shakes head laughing-

    Ok, ya’all are just nuts. 🙂

    I don’t have all of the other issues you folks have, and it is best to debate an issue without saying “I am this, I am that”. It fails to support an argument and leads more towards personal attacks rather than the intelligent attack of ideas.

    Thanks for coming clean about your alter ego there Gabe.

    I suppose if one looked at it from a political point of view, if people were given a true right to informed consent on vaccines…full disclosure and the like, then the vaccine rate would probably/likely drop. (Why else would they have to lie to parents and try to coerce them, telling them their kids wont be admitted into school or will be taken from them and other over the top measures?)

    Not only would the rates of vaccination drop but if they dropped TOO low, the federal government will not give those states the federal monetary incentives they currently give to states to maintain a certain vaccination rate?

    (Did you know about that?)

  56. You know, if this guy/father wasnt a Johns Hopkins researcher, I would wager noone would be paying any attention to this at all.

    As I read the web md linked article from the original, I find it very telling. (Error of omission or dishonesty by Bailey?)

    There is much more to read than just this:

    Her father, Jon, then a neurologist at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, co-authored a paper describing how autistic spectrum disorders can be associated with mitochondrial dysfunction. It was published in 2006 in the Journal of Child Neurology.

    Poling hopes the fed’s decision will trigger government action. “I hope it will force government agencies to look further into what susceptibility factors are out there for children to develop brain injury after vaccination, to look into the susceptibility factors of people at risk.”

    His advice for parents? They should demand to know a vaccine’s safety record before agreeing to give it to their child, including any known links with metabolic disorders and susceptibility to injury, he says.

  57. If people can watch a video like this :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58h0LjdMry0

    and just say that only “conspiracy nuts” think the government is lying and yes it is good to tase anyone who questions this type of thing……then we got big problems.

  58. vaccines are not necessary, do not work, contain poisons, and expose you/your child to many risks.
    do some research. start w/ a quick google: “vaccines ineffective”. go from there. and i am not even considering autism.

    vaccines supposedly protect us from disease, but the sad truth is that the death rate from ALL of the vaccination diseases was reduced to nearly zero BEFORE THE FIRST VACCINE WAS EVER ADMINISTERED.
    plumbers and civil engineers (clean water and waste disposal) are far more responsible for the reduction in these diseases than any vaccine (or doctor) – and history shows it.

  59. clipped this:
    …..
    Especially when government agencies and politicians, including the FDA, the CDC, and former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, were exposed for colluding with the pharmaceutical manufacturers of mercury-containing vaccines in Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s devastating 2005 Rolling Stone expos? “Deadly Immunity.”

    Kennedy writes in the opening lines:

    In June 2000, a group of top government scientists and health officials gathered for a meeting at the isolated Simpsonwood conference center in Norcross, Georgia. Convened by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the meeting was held at this Methodist retreat center, nestled in wooded farmland next to the Chattahoochee River, to ensure complete secrecy. The agency had issued no public announcement of the session — only private invitations to fifty-two attendees. There were high-level officials from the CDC and the Food and Drug Administration, the top vaccine specialist from the World Health Organization in Geneva and representatives of every major vaccine manufacturer, including GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Wyeth and Aventis Pasteur. All of the scientific data under discussion, CDC officials repeatedly reminded the participants, was strictly “embargoed.” There would be no making photocopies of documents, no taking papers with them when they left.

    The federal officials and industry representatives had assembled to discuss a disturbing new study that raised alarming questions about the safety of a host of common childhood vaccines administered to infants and young children. According to a CDC epidemiologist named Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agency’s massive database containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines — thimerosal — appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children. “I was actually stunned by what I saw,” Verstraeten told those assembled at Simpsonwood, citing the staggering number of earlier studies that indicate a link between thimerosal and speech delays, attention-deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism. Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely young infants — in one case, within hours of birth — the estimated number of cases of autism had increased fifteenfold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166 children [it currently stands at one in every 150 children].

  60. Even for scientists and doctors accustomed to confronting issues of life and death, the findings were frightening. “You can play with this all you want,” Dr. Bill Weil, a consultant for the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the group. The results “are statistically significant.” Dr. Richard Johnston, an immunologist and pediatrician from the University of Colorado whose grandson had been born early on the morning of the meeting’s first day, was even more alarmed. “My gut feeling?” he said. “Forgive this personal comment — I do not want my grandson to get a thimerosal-containing vaccine until we know better what is going on.”

  61. You see this is all luddite non-science according to Ron Bailey. It doesn’t matter how much calculus, statistics, chemistry or physiology we have taken. It doesn’t matter if we went to MIT, Ron Bailey can dismiss all criticism of vaccination policy by just ad homineming us with “anti-science” smears or other laughable assertions. You see he is a true science advocate because he is a paid journalist writing for a fake libertarian magazine. We know his credentials are off the charts because he is one of the great scientific thinkers who agrees with UN global carbon tax policies.

  62. So correlation means causation with respect to C02 and global warming and any way we need to keep in mind the precautionary principle and make sure to inflict a global tax on everyone to stifle population growth just in case.

    However, correlation has nothing to do with cuasation when it comes to 18 month old babies coming down with autism right after getting juiced up with thimerosal. and helll why worry about it abyway….just shootem up, who need precaution and lets just make parents pay for it and try to FORCE them to inject their kids too.

    Ron Bailey consistent logic.

  63. Gabe, Lynn and all the other knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers,

    You are idiots. Unfortunately, there is neither vaccine, nor cure for this. You will probably pass it on to your children, and they to theirs. Feel free to hold an Idiot Party to see if you can confer some group immunity.

    You can however, start on a treatment, just patented by various PHDs and multi-national Pharmas. It’s called Thinking(tm), and it starts with a loading dose of Rationality(r), and a life-long course of what’s known in the lay community as “Usin’ your Noggin'” or Mentalthexate in its generic form.

  64. Some people can process the 25 micrograms some can’t….to then say that those who can’t are just genetically broken so it isn’t anyones fault is pretty weak.

    The fault lies elsewhere. Drugs that harm some percentage of patients – which is just about all of them – shouldn’t be yanked from the market. The benefit to 99% of patients shouldn’t be eliminated just because of that 1% who will suffer an adverse drug reaction.

    The fault also lies with people who say, “oh well, this kid was just genetically unprepared for this,” without following that up with, “we’re gonna search high and low to find what genetic (or physiological) quirk made this happen and will make every effort to screen patients prior to administration of this drug or vaccine.”

    What needs to be done is testing (and more research to find more gene-drug relationships) to determine beforehand whether a patient is likely to suffer an ADR… whether a patient carries some genetic variation that makes them unable to process a drug or its components properly.

    Then parents and physicians can made educated decisions based on their own child’s genetic makeup rather than on data from studies paid for by various interested parties. Hell, even impartial studies can be flawed, and unless you know how to read and interpret the literature, you’ve got no hope of knowing which data to believe and which data may or may not apply to your child in particular.

  65. Dr. (Pr)Offit is a pathological liar! The Poling case was not decided by a judge, it was conceaded by U.S. HHS Doctors after reviewing her medical records. Here are some of the symptoms of mitochondrial disease; seizures, loss of skills, gi tract problems, developmental delay, neuropathy, muscle weakness, endocrine imbalances,hearing and vision problems. Every kid diagnosed with autism has the same symptoms.

    source: Mitochondrial disease criteria, diagnostic applications in children. Neurology 2006;67:1823-1826

  66. Gabe, Lynn and all the other knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers,

    You are idiots. Unfortunately, there is neither vaccine, nor cure for this. You will probably pass it on to your children, and they to theirs. Feel free to hold an Idiot Party to see if you can confer some group immunity.

    You can however, start on a treatment, just patented by various PHDs and multi-national Pharmas. It’s called Thinking(tm), and it starts with a loading dose of Rationality(r), and a life-long course of what’s known in the lay community as “Usin’ your Noggin'” or Mentalthexate in its generic form.
    From TB
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    TB, your illogical personal attacks are noted loud and clear as well as your lack of factual info to back up your nonsense.

    For someone preaching using your noggin and reasoning, you should consider basing your argument on some factual information. It would go a long way towards helping your argument.

    Your insults are very unimpressive.

    Have you any arguments with the facts presented by Gabe and I?

    Or did you just come here to look silly?

  67. Some people can process the 25 micrograms some can’t….to then say that those who can’t are just genetically broken so it isn’t anyones fault is pretty weak.

    The fault lies elsewhere. Drugs that harm some percentage of patients – which is just about all of them – shouldn’t be yanked from the market. The benefit to 99% of patients shouldn’t be eliminated just because of that 1% who will suffer an adverse drug reaction.

    The fault also lies with people who say, “oh well, this kid was just genetically unprepared for this,” without following that up with, “we’re gonna search high and low to find what genetic (or physiological) quirk made this happen and will make every effort to screen patients prior to administration of this drug or vaccine.”

    What needs to be done is testing (and more research to find more gene-drug relationships) to determine beforehand whether a patient is likely to suffer an ADR… whether a patient carries some genetic variation that makes them unable to process a drug or its components properly.

    Then parents and physicians can made educated decisions based on their own child’s genetic makeup rather than on data from studies paid for by various interested parties. Hell, even impartial studies can be flawed, and unless you know how to read and interpret the literature, you’ve got no hope of knowing which data to believe and which data may or may not apply to your child in particular.
    ~~~~~~~~~
    There are some different aspects to these cases over most ADR. For starters, it is not “mandatory for entry into school” that anyone take anything other than vaccines. If parents are too stupid to ask, thats one thing. IF parents ask and are given incorrect or incomplete information, that is a different.

    Parents are told their kids wont be admitted to school, are denied entry into some daycare centers, at times are ostracized by the ignorant of the community that may not understand their choice to opt out of some or all vaccines, are not given true risk/benefit equations, are not told about the nature of the disease, failure rate of the vaccines, treatability, are not fully informed how to report a reaction to VAERS, are not told about state waivers (and some states are pushing for medical waivers only and bedamned anyone that doesnt want them for their own personal reasons). Some people are even threatened that their children will be removed from them.

    There have been cases where parents have seen vaccine reactions in their older kids, try to postpone or avoid vaccines with their younger kids, and are given THREATS. Now they have a household full of kids with serious neurological delays and disabilities. Coercion of this type should be illegal but they are merely ignored in the name of “the greater good and public health” and “medical science”.

    So I agree, they should be looking fast and hard for those people who are more likely to have a reaction based on genetics. Maybe a simple glutathione test. If someone takes a statin, they get regular liver tests. Simple. Except you are talking about an ADULT who has a hopefully mature brain, and not a newborn baby or child that has their entire life ahead of them-stolen.

    If they keep this up, there won’t be anyone left without serious neurological damage to run this country.

  68. Autism and vaccines, it’s not science it’s arithmetic. There are no unvaccinated autistic people in the UK nor are there in the Amish nor in the Homefirst natural health practices in the USA.

    Eight years ago I would have wrangled with the rest of you about the science and the seemingly inpenetrable factors affecting this issue. In the intervening period I have attended twenty conferences in the UK and USA, communicated with thousands of people, broadcast on radio and television and found no substantive evidence of autism amongst unvaccinated groups.

    The CDC is completely wrong about babies being born with autism it only happens if the mother has been exposed to vaccine components during her pregnancy. Otherwise autism does not exist in the absence of vaccination.

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