The Anti-Emo Pogroms

Mexican subcultures go to war:

In recent weeks, a wave of emo bashings has swept across Mexico, several news agencies have reported, fuelled by punks, rockabillies, goths, metalheads and basically anyone who's not emo.

According to Daniel Hernandez, who's been covering the anti-emo riots on his blog Intersections, the violence began March 7, when an estimated 800 young people poured into the Mexican city of Queretaro's main plaza "hunting" for emo kids to pummel. Then the following weekend similar violence occurred in Mexico City at the Glorieta de Insurgents, a central gathering space for emos. Hernandez also reports that several anti-emo riots have now also spread to various other Mexican cities. Via the Austin American Statesmen, several postings on Mexican social-networking sites, primarily organising spot for these "emo hunts," have been dug up and translated. One states: "I HATE EMOS!!! They are not even people, they are so stupid, they cry over meaningless things… My school is infested with them, I want to kill them all!"…

More recent reports state that the emos have begun to fight back against the other "urban tribes" and organised marches in Guadalajara and Mexico City, escalating the violence and leading to increased police presence.

Hat tip: Charles Oliver, who adds: "This would have made a great movie in the hands of Walter Hill around 1978." It sounds more like a joint project for Todd Haynes and Sam Peckinpah to me.

Comments

[Bingo]

Whats about the preps and the hipsters and the jocks?

[Eric S.]

I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself.

[Bingo]

And the nerds??

Are the nerds neutral in this whole affair? Maybe the nerds and the preps can mediate talks between the emos and the offended parties and reach an agreement.

[John]

For the benifit of those of us who are over the age of 25 and have lives, could someone please explain what the hell and Emo is?

This sounds like to me that is calling for this generation's Spanish speaking S.E. Hinton.

[John]

"Are the nerds neutral in this whole affair? Maybe the nerds and the preps can mediate talks between the emos and the offended parties and reach an agreement."

The nerds are just glad to see someone else get beatup.

[Citizen Nothing]

I'm so fucking old I had to look up EMO on Wikipedia.

[Episiarch]

Are Mexican punks, rockabillies, goths, metalheads and basically anyone who's not emo going to take our domestic emo-ass-kicking jobs?

Then again, having emo kids getting their asses kicked for less can only be a plus.

This is also a good sign that the Mexican kids are growing up right.

[R C Dean]

More recent reports state that the emos have begun to fight back . . .

I'm stuck here. Should I be thinking "But how would you even know?", or "But how is that even possible?"

[J sub D]

Weird.
Just plain weird.
People are stupid.
And assholes.

[Rimfax]

The emo that fights back is not a true emo.

[dbcooper]

Getting your ass kicked by goths, ooh that is sad.

[Kolohe]

fuelled by punks, rockabillies, goths, metalheads

Heck, I'm not so old to not know what emo is, but I thought pretty much goth = emo.

I guess this is like one of those Judean People's Front/People's Front of Judeah conflicts.

[Episiarch]

Getting your ass kicked by goths, ooh that is sad.

Dude, they're emos. Sad is a given, and who can't kick their ass? Your grandma? I bet she could.

[Cesar]

John--

Someone who is emo is a little teenage spoiled middle class brat who nevertheless thinks he has it the worst of anyone in the whole world, wears black clothes and wire-framed glasses, constantly whines, and bitches about how he'll never ever get a girlfriend because girls are so UNFAIR! They also usually threaten to kill themselves by cutting.

[Cesar]

Heck, I'm not so old to not know what emo is, but I thought pretty much goth = emo.

Emo is a pathetic, retarded form of goth.

[Warren]

HEY! You Kids! Stay off my lawn!
*shakes fist

[the innominate one]

a better title for the post would have been "go cry, emo boy"

[Fluffy]

Emo kids are goth kids who never read Anne Rice and who listen to Coldplay instead.

But seriously, Walter Hill? Isn't this more of a John Carpenter or George Romero assignment? Maybe a shadowy group is distributing sunglasses that, when you wear them, allow you to see that emo kids are secretly aliens.

[pinko]

Mexico has arrived, clearly. These are the pathologies of modernization, yeah!
The video is hilarious. One metalhead explains to a journalist "We are not attacking the emos because we are against them...we are attacking because they are copying our style."

[Episiarch]

I would think Larry Clark would be the go-to man for this film.

[Bingo]

John:
here for emo

here for other modern subcultures

[Citizen Nothing]

So this has nothing to do with Emo Philips?
Whew. That's a relief.

[Episiarch]

You go to war with the emo you have, not the emo you want.

[Reinmoose]

Am I the only one having trouble picturing what a Mexican emo kid would look like?

[Kolohe]

Interesting Cesar. Anthropologically, I wonder where everyone on that Mexico City ass-kicking/ass-kicked list falls into The Hierarchy.

[Reinmoose as Emo Kid]

I'm going to go lock myself in my room and write poetry about how my parents don't understand me

[Rimfax]

I see it as more of a Sam Raimi pic, with Ted Raimi as the pathetic emo who turns to his older brother, played by Bruce Campbell, who blasts doubled-barreled justice against the zombie rockabilly armies, while incessantly insulting the emos the whole time and hooking up with the wickedly hot goth chick who feels sorry for the emos but still manages to give them the occasional kick with her 9-inch thigh-high platforms. At the end, it is set up for a sequel when a horde of furries is seen hopping, crawling, and sleezing into town.

[Tim]

So what we see here is that NAFTA has allowed for the shipping off of our youth subcultures to Mexico. That "sucking" sound you here is an "emo" band.

I wouldn't say "emo" and "goth" (formerly deathrocker in the past) are the same. There is less make up in "emo". As far as "nerds" I think they make up a large percentage of both "emo" and "goth" the difference probably being the playing of D&D. Sort of nerds with style. I didn't say good style but a style.

Just for the reocrd "emo" used to mean "emo-core" which was created out of the hardcore style when it shifted from lyrics about Reagan to lyrics about chicks and the associated miseries there in. I reference Rights of Spring and Marginal Man as early "emo-core" bands.

Anyway, the kids all suck.
*bitterwashedupthirdraterockstar

[John]

It is amazing how the kids never change just the labels. In the 1980s the Cesar describes listened to Morrisey and the Cure and didn't really call themselves anything (this was the days before Ann Rice and Goth). At least they have a name now.

[Ska]

I'm having a more trouble picturing a Mexican preppy.

[Ayn_Randian]

I like how this article has triggered a side ad for vampirefreaks.com.

[Ska]

And typing in sensible English.

[Fluffy]

Speaking of furries, shouldn't there have been a major furry scandal by now? Like the Spitzer scandal, only with the story being "Politician X revealed to be a furry"? Every other vice has already been done.

[John]

Tim,

I actually remember the emocore bands in the 80s. I didn't know it was associated with such a loser subculture. Can't I am surprised though. I always considered emocore music for musicians who weren't cool enough to be The Replacements or Husker Du.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

S.E. Hinton

My son loves Rumblefish and the Outsiders. And they are ancient, tattered, yellowed, bent up, paperback copies with Coke and jelly stains on half the pages.

[John]

"I'm having a more trouble picturing a Mexican preppy."

Mexico has more than its share of rich elites and their spoiled children. Imagine a more swarthy version of the Andrew McCarthy character in any 1980s teen movie or better yet the two Mexican teenagers who end up going gay for each other in Yu Mia Tambien or whatever it was.

[John]

Wine,

S.E. Hinton is a realy good author. Good for your kids for reading her.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Shallow me. I thought those guys all hung out on street corners with switchblades and baggie pants swilling down Mexican Coke (made with sugar) out of beater glass bottles that they broke the neck off of by bashing it against the iron burglar bars to show how tough they are.

Then I find out that there's Mexican Rockabillies. Go figure.

[P Brooks]

Emus can run really fast, so it's hard to believe they get their asses kicked very much. And when they put their heads in the sand, you can't see them.

[Cesar]

John-

Their music is much worse than that now. Between Emo music, "cash money" style rap, and American Idol knock-offs non-satellite radio is totally unlistenable.

[drawnasunder]

Waaaarriors -- come out to plaaaaaay!"

[John]

Cesar,

The Cure was a great band. It is not their fault all of their fans were losers. The Smiths weren't that bad either. Come a band that actually has a song called "Girlfriend in a Coma" deserves some humor points if nothing else.

I did see on the Wiki entry for emos that Jimmy Eat World and Dashboard Confessional are considered Emo bands and both of those bands suck with a capital S. Something tells me Bare Naked Ladies is or was big in the Emo scene as well.

[Cesar]

John-

Other emo bands: Linkin Park, Wheezer, Three Doors Down. Horrible, horrible stuff. Its enough to make one miss hair metal.

[Cesar]

The Hierachy map is pretty funny. I always had a special disdain for Roleplaying gamers, and know I know why.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Hey, Cesar, Three Doors Down can't possibly be an Emo band, shit dude, they're Southern Rockers and even toured with Skynyrd. Besides that, I like them, proof enough they ain't Emo. So bite me, man. 🙂

[shecky]

Believe it or not, Mexico has a pretty large middle class capable of sustaining a number of it's own little subcultures. Just like the US.

I'm more sympathetic to
this story of Latin American youth culture.

I find it quite encouraging, and somewhat amusing, that North American media may be finding more reason to wring their hands over the trends of kids these days. In other countries. Moralizers see them ad wonder what the world is coming to. I see them and rejoice that these countries enjoy so much prosperity as to allow such subcultures to even exist.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

So I look up American Idol contestant Danny Norriega cuz I figure, hey, maybe he's one of them Emo's. And sure enough, he is. Right there in the comments below the idiot girls leaving their email addresses on a public website, is a comment from somebody who says:

Hes a fucking QUEER little EMO fuck that needs to get voted off then stabbed

Nice.

[Cesar]

I'm a video gamer but could never ever stand Pokemon or MMORPGS. First of all, both require zero skill to play well. Second of all, the way you DO get better at them is to spend more money and time. Thirdly, you can never beat them. Its a genre designed totally for the purpose of milking as much money out of people as possible.

[Episiarch]

Cesar: I went to high school with Rivers Cuomo of Weezer. In high school, he was in a hair metal band called Avant Garde.

I still have one of their albums on audio tape. I'm keeping it for blackmail purposes.

[Cesar]

I wish he would've stayed with the hair metal. Hair metal is ridiculous but still hair metal>emo.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

John, thanks.

And another thing Jesse Walker. Now, I think in prejudices. Last week I thought Danny Norriega was just an odd kid with weird hair. Now, you've fixed it so I put him in the Emo box.

It's people like you what cause unrest in this world.

🙂

[mediageek]

Mexican goth?

How do they pull off the pasty-skinned death-warmed-over-look with that kind of tan?

[Warty]

Did someone say hair metal???

[sixstring]

Fluffy | March 27, 2008, 11:39am | #

Speaking of furries, shouldn't there have been a major furry scandal by now? Like the Spitzer scandal, only with the story being "Politician X revealed to be a furry"? Every other vice has already been done.

Stay tuned, next week Paterson will be revealing something else from his closet, and furries are as good a bet as any. My money is on his fondness for showtunes.

[Episiarch]

Ha ha ha, Wikipedia is amazing.

Cesar, I give you Avant Garde.

I think I have the first one. One of only 100!

[joshua corning]

Fugazi and Husker Du are Emo???

[Cesar]

Epi, I'm honestly shocked his first band wasn't a grunge knock-off band.

[ed]

I quit trying to keep up with pop music's ever-splintering sub-categories and genre-splicing when I discoved that "shoegazer" had itself many sub-categories. "Emo"? I have no idea, but I'd guess they complain a lot and wear silly clothes.

[Jim Bob]

The last thing emos need is something legitimate to whine about.

[joshua corning]

Heck, I'm not so old to not know what emo is, but I thought pretty much goth = emo.

The weird things is that i thought emo = punk, rockabillies, goth, and metal.

Well ok metal not so much...i always thought metalheads were pretty much emo but with really bad taste in music.

[Episiarch]

Epi, I'm honestly shocked his first band wasn't a grunge knock-off band.

No grunge in 1987, Cesar. At least not outside of Seattle.

[Cesar]

No grunge in 1987, Cesar. At least not outside of Seattle.

True. Forgot to look at the years.

[vault_dog4]

Emo isn't the same as goth. Emo is goth for pussies.

Is it wrong to feel good about this culture war??

[Jim Bob]

Then what the hell is Unknown Hinson?

[Bingo]

Metal is boring.

[Jim Bob]

No grunge in 1987, Cesar. At least not outside of Seattle.

Sub-Pop Records was king!

[Warty]

Unknown Hinson is the king of all country-western troubadours.

[joshua corning]

Emo is goth for pussies.

Huh?

This is a puzzle isn't it cuz i am having hard time imagining a goth who is not a pussy.

In fact i am having a REALLY hard time imagining any music nerd type as not being a huge pussy

[Cesar]

In that video, Hinson actually did riffs that are 99% better than what most rock bands have done in the last seven years.

[T]

In the 1980s the Cesar describes listened to Morrisey and the Cure and didn't really call themselves anything (this was the days before Ann Rice and Goth)

Goth existed in the 80s before Anne Rice. Just ask Siouxsie.

[Rhywun]

Just for the reocrd "emo" used to mean "emo-core"

I always thought emo was Sunny Day Real Estate, Jets to Brazil and the like. I hate the fact that a sort-of "label" for bands I really like gets applied to a really annoying youth subculture instead. Actually I hate musical labels being appropriated by youth cultures, period.

PS. Mexican goth *music* rocks. Check out Hocico and Amduscia.

[Jim Bob]

In that video, Hinson actually did riffs that are 99% better than what most rock bands have done in the last seven years.

He is strangely badass, I agree.

[Mutts]

No way, this is a project for Godley and Creme:

sort of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFtfSpn7PNU

meets this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Z8pSXCNFI

Casting call?

[Famous Mortimer]

Actually, the term "emo" has been applied to various styles of music during their relevant periods.

It used to be applied to sad songs that were strummed very slowly, or Fugazzi style punk.

Now it seems to refer to these pseudo-goth radio bands like "My Chemical Romance," and "Panic At The Disco."

It's really nothing new. However, it is important to remember that this wasn't always how the term was used.

Anyway, is it me, or does Mexico have a shit load of more important issues to worry about?

[Cesar]

Anyway, is it me, or does Mexico have a shit load of more important issues to worry about?

Hell, doesn't the United States?

[Episiarch]

Ha ha, Rhywun likes emo. Fa...whoops.

[Bingo]

ed: It is ridiculous. The general rule is that there is a direct correlation between how retarded the genre name is, the crappiness of the music itself, and how snobby the people are that listen to it.

example: Twee

[Eric S.]

John:

Not knowing what an emo is doesn't out you as "over 25 and with a life." It outs you as at least 40, maybe 45, and completely unaware of the vast world of internet humor.

[Rhywun]

example: Twee

Ha, I like some of that too. I guess that makes me a fa... Oh.

Fucking labels. I hate 'em.

[Cesar]

Does anyone else blame the decline in rock music in the lats 12 years or so to lack of drugs being taken by song writers now?

[NoStar]

I conjured up an image of bratty kids slathered in imitation sour cream. But then I remembered thats Imo.

[Bingo]

Cesar:

You are out of your mind. The last 12 years have been awesome for rock music. The 90s was probably a low point for the genre as grunge and post-grunge knockoffs dominated the radio waves.

Do some research, there are so many talented bands out there from the myriad of genres that have splintered.

[Famous Mortimer]

Is there a war against emo in America?

[MattXIV]

If nothing else, think of the quantities of bad poetry beating up this many emo kids is going to produce. Have they no respect for their langauge?

And for reference, since there's some confusion about what it is musically, emo is a punk subgenre of relatively down-tempo, too-earnest songs about how depressing it is not getting laid.

Some representative examples:

The Get-Up Kids
Saves The Day

[Rhywun]

It used to be applied to sad songs that were strummed very slowly, or Fugazzi style punk.

To me the defining quality of "emo" was a lot of switches between "loud" and "quiet" plus less "screaming" and more "emotion". Now it just means "sucky". Pity.

[Cesar]

Bingo:

I haven't noticed it on radio. Its been dominated by emo and shitty pop punk Blink 182 knock-offs.

[Bingo]

Cesar:

That's your problem. I haven't listened to the radio in over 3 years. Some great ways to find new bands is (horribly enough) myspace, last.fm, youtube, and wikipedia.

Start with one band you like and find other artists in the genre. Last.fm is a really useful utility that will make band recommendations based on what you listen to. There is no reason to listen to the whatever the ClearChannel monopoly decides it wants you to hear.

[Cesar]

Bing:

I'll check out those sites, but I'll tell you I got satellite radio three months ago and its great, much much better than clear channel horseshit. Its like the cable TV of radio, you can find anything.

[Famous Mortimer]

That's what I don't understand. This bizarre attack on emo kids is simply going to make them even more emo.

Before we all have too much fun hitting the pinata (I had to) that is the emo community, we need to remember that this is another hideous example of the inherent evil of mob mentality.

[dbcooper]

If nothing else, think of the quantities of bad poetry beating up this many emo kids is going to produce. Have they no respect for their langauge?

Representative sample of bad emo poetry: "I fell so hard for you I broke both my legs."

[Episiarch]

Some great ways to find new bands is (horribly enough) myspace, last.fm, youtube, and wikipedia.

What about Pandora?

You list what you like and it creates playlists for you of bands and songs that are similar, so you branch off your own likes into unknown stuff. My cousins swear by it.

[lordsomber]

Emo Tae-Bo: a years-long phase of sashaying the Whining Waltz, airing a steady steaming stream of sure-to-be-noticed Useless Introspections and Traumotional Affidavits tailored to gallantly shore up one's Emotional Tackle.

Alas, even Self-Referential SulkFests get old and the vicissitudes of Fa?ade Fatigue finally set in, forcing our player to seek out a new front.

[SugarFree]

Emo as a lifestyle has always seemed to me to come in three loosely-defined divisions:

1. The larval state of Williamsburg hipster-creatures. Think vintage T-shirts and buying shoes on eBay. Teen emos enter the pupa in college, and then blossom into the horn-rimmed beglassed assbags who complain about the gentrification of Brooklyn and how crowded the L train is.

2. Pre-gay: not quite ready to come out the closet, but the knob on the door is turning. These are actually the least reprehensible of the breed. They are actually just trying to blend in with...

3. Emo as a sub-set of meterosexuality. It's the boys who play at being sensitive and pro-feminist in order to date feminists and other politically charged girls. (Not a bad strategy; putting-out is often a political act.) They go to FGM documentaries and Take Back The Night Rallies. (These are the worst, they have a tendency to prey on girls who weren't considered attractive in high school, and who bloomed in college. In my opinion, the best kind of girl...)

It's important to remember, though, almost one actually calls themselves an emo band or refers to themselves as emo. It's really mostly an insult.

Emo also has uncomfortable links to the straight-edge movement through 7 Seconds and Nation of Ulysses.

[Famous Mortimer]

Yeah, unless you have satellite radio, very little good ever comes of listening to the ever revolving hip hop playlist on your standard stations.

Another good place to find new music is MTV2's Subterranean, and also searching for your favorite bands via Amazon, and then seeing what others recommend. I have found numerous bands that way.

With the Internet, there really is no excuse for being held hostage by Top 40 radio.

When I hear people say that no one is writing good music anymore, I first think that they've essentially become their parents, or I think that they're simply comfortable being dissatisfied.

There's a lot of great music out there if you're a sincere music fan.

[SugarFree]

Cesar,

You could also tap the amazing power of the Reason boards, and ask us. List the top 25 most played songs on your iPod and we can take a crack at it. (Or 10 or 15 of your favorite bands.)

Sadly, though, I think musical taste is the most subjective of opinions.

[Cesar]

I know theres good stuff underground, but part of me WANTS the top 40 to at least have good stuff in it (it has before, after all). I don't know if thats ever possible again though.

[Famous Mortimer]

Arguing relentlessly about any artistic endeavor is subjective, and ultimately futile. That's why I tend to despise music journalism (the lowest form). It's like arguing which is the best color.

Only food connoisseurs rank beneath them. Taste is the most subjective of the senses.

[lordsomber]

Emo-Affiliates have de-emphasized traditional attention-mongering in Hipster Outreach; they're solely concerned with assembling a winning coalition of 'The Globally Concerned.' Sadly, they will find that attitude very hard to shift, in witness whereof we can see how the top figures in the scene have cold-shouldered any questioning of motives. Is this shot in the foot merely a case of the 'Dummies' or are these unwitting self-parodies designed from the start to fail?

[Bingo]

What about Pandora?

Pandora is great, sometimes. I think their analysis algorithm is way off for some genres though. Also, after listening to about 12 songs everything tends to devolve into post-grunge, pop-punk, or some insipid neutered indie rock.

[vault_dog4]

This is a puzzle isn't it cuz i am having hard time imagining a goth who is not a pussy.

In fact i am having a REALLY hard time imagining any music nerd type as not being a huge pussy

I will concede the point!

[Episiarch]

You could also tap the amazing power of the Reason boards, and ask us.

Hanzel und Gretyl, yeah! But that's not for everyone. Try the earlier stuff first if you can get it. Much more diverse. Wikipeda entry here.

[John]

Sugerfree,

Unless by pray you mean rape, what is wrong with number 3? Those guys can't compete with the jocks and the frat boys of the world so they change the rules and market themsleves to the right niche. What is wrong with that? I couldn't pull it off but good for them for being able to.

[Famous Mortimer]

"In fact i am having a REALLY hard time imagining any music nerd type as not being a huge pussy"

You're more than welcome to test that theory, son.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Unless by pray you mean rape, what is wrong with number 3? Those guys can't compete with the jocks and the frat boys of the world so they change the rules and market themsleves to the right niche. What is wrong with that?"

Good point. This is pretty much how the world works, period. From politics, to fashion modeling, it's all about context.

[ChrisO]

Wow, being an emo in the Land of Machismo. That's gotta suck.

Guess Conor Oberst isn't going to be doing Mexican shows anytime soon...

[Famous Mortimer]

Bright Eyes. Perfect example of emo. However, Conor has written some great songs.

I also find it a bit ironic that metal heads have issues with emo kids. They're essentially the same thing.

In fact, I would say that Metal Heads are the most emo of the lot. Korn, anyone?

Anyway, would it be considered inappropriate to remind everyone that The Smiths were the greatest pop group of all time? With the description of emo slowly morphing into "anything you want it to be" I'm sure that there are some who would love to slot them as emo.

[John]

Moritmor,

Bright Eyes definitely goes into the most gay name for a rock band hall of fame.

[Famous Mortimer]

Oh no, there have been worse: "Orchestral Maneuvers In The Dark," and "Spandeau Ballet."

Fuck it, "Boy George" brings home the trophy.

[Lamar]

Nothing like starting violence based on vanity to show how macho you are. I mean, if we can't beat each other up over our clothing choices, what can we beat each other up for?

[SugarFree]

John,

I think it's a fine strategy, but they have built their whole life on a lie, so when the women see through it they become suspicious of all men. We loose them to feminism and/or Hagen-Daas.

It's a tragedy of the commons. They never pay for the externalities of their "pollution," the larger community has to.

[Famous Mortimer]

Am I the only one that finds this surge of violence to be somewhat "emo" in its expression?

[atrevete]

"emo is a punk subgenre of relatively down-tempo, too-earnest songs about how depressing it is not getting laid."

Like Janis Ian then?

[Episiarch]

I mean, if we can't beat each other up over our clothing choices, what can we beat each other up for?

Haircut choices?

[alan]

Blink 182 -- I hate that dude's voice with a passion. Drink whiskey, start smoking, anything to get your balls to drop, stoopid Blink 182 singer.

[Robert]

emo is a punk subgenre of relatively down-tempo, too-earnest songs about how depressing it is not getting laid.

Is that more, or less depressing than Jandek's?

Looks like I wasn't the only one to confuse it with Emo Philips. Must be short for emotional.

[alan]

Oh no, there have been worse: "Orchestral Maneuvers In The Dark," and "Spandeau Ballet."

Fuck it, "Boy George" brings home the trophy.

Even better than that:
Bronski's Beat

[Cesar]

Alan--

How about he takes up a drug habit to improve his song writing abilities?

As Bill Hicks said, if you hate drugs then just go home, burn all your best old albums, and start listening to New Kid on the Block.

[Lurker/Weezer fan]

"Other emo bands: Linkin Park, Wheezer, Three Doors Down. Horrible, horrible stuff. Its enough to make one miss hair metal."

Weezer is not emo. The early stuff had some sad lyrics, that stupid emo kids though spoke directly to them, and now they cite Weezer as an influence. But Weezer is not emo.

[atrevete]

Most Mexican music seems to be pretty tragic and sad - they have a penchant for "cortando las venas". Even the fairly modern pop singers like Alejandro Fernandez (who I like!)

And Goth seems a natural for the folks who celebrate "Dia de los Muertos" (Day of the Dead)taking the family out for a picnic in the cemetary.

[alan]

I agree Cesar. What is with kids these days? Even singers want to be the girl's 'best friend' with the strangely emphatic sing song effeminate voice, instead of a husky sounding Jim Morrison fucking everything that moves.

What is wrong with kids these days.

[ed]

example: Twee

Ha ha ha!
Wait...you're just making stuff up now, aren't you?

[Cesar]

Alan-

You know why rap/hip hop is so popular now? Because rock 'n roll has been castrated and femminized.

[GILMORE]

mexican Quadrophrenia

it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Put $50 down on the metalheads for me, with the rockabilly's to place.

[alan]

You know why rap/hip hop is so popular now? Because rock 'n roll has been castrated and femminized.

I saw that happening in the 80's when I was still a kid. I must confess I had my own Public Enemy phase though I'm basically a metal head.

[GILMORE]

Emo as a lifestyle has always seemed to me to come in three loosely-defined divisions:

1. The larval state of Williamsburg hipster-creatures. Think vintage T-shirts and buying shoes on eBay. Teen emos enter the pupa in college, and then blossom into the horn-rimmed beglassed assbags who complain about the gentrification of Brooklyn and how crowded the L train is.

But those kids like to do lots of coke and dance to 'Electroclash'.

There aint no emo up in this hood missy. Now run along!

[Cesar]

Alan rap in the late 80s/early 90s had some great stuff. Now its just about cars, gold, and strippers. In other words, its become the black version of hair metal. Too bad.

[ChrisO]

In fact, I would say that Metal Heads are the most emo of the lot. Korn, anyone?

Korn is only metal in the most attenuated sense of the term. Somehow, I doubt that Slayer and Morbid Angel are really trying to get in touch with their inner feelings...

But your larger point is true--there has been a lot of "life sucks" sentiment in metal from the day that Black Sabbath started making eardrums bleed in 1969. And that's not entirely removed from the emo point of view.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Even better than that:
Bronski's Beat"

Check Mate: Pet Shop Boys

I'm beginning to think that this is a game without a winner.

Also, many Mexican, and Mexican Americans have a fetish for Morrissey. While Morrissey has not produced music that can necessarily be categorized as either "emo," or "goth" he certainly plays into the romantic troubadour popular in the Mexican imagination.

Of course, all of this makes the emo hunt even more bizarre than it already is. But hey, if you have rockabilly kids getting involved, then clearly a line has been crossed.

The Latino rockabilly nuts that proliferate Morrissey concerts in Southern California are rife with assholes.

[Timon19]

Korn is an abortion.

Do not disgrace the legacy of metal by uttering their name in association.

[Episiarch]

But those kids like to do lots of coke and dance to 'Electroclash'.

There aint no emo up in this hood missy. Now run along!

People who are too poor to live in Manhattan shouldn't waste their money on blow. And sorry, dude, but the saturation of emo and mod in that area is appalling.

[SugarFree]

GILMORE,

I'm suggesting emo grows up to become that. The common thread? Gas station attendant shirts.

[alan]

It will take a nation of millions to keep this somewhat, er, almost, but not quite, white guy down (authenticity in collective identity has always been something of a joke to me).

An aunt of mine on my dad's side married into the Mexican oligarchy. All of her boys (three of them) were Metalheads who grew up in Mexico City, so Mexican goths and rockabillies come as a surprise to me as well.

[Bingo]

Timon: all nu-metal is an abortion

[John]

"But your larger point is true--there has been a lot of "life sucks" sentiment in metal from the day that Black Sabbath started making eardrums bleed in 1969. And that's not entirely removed from the emo point of view."

As a former white middle class metal head I take issue with that. Yeah, there was some real downer stuff about it, but that didn't cause people to sit around and feel sorry for themselves and act deep. It caused people to go out and vandalize things and get into fist fights and take copious amounts of alchohol and drugs and do all sorts of decidedly non-emo things.

And for the record Korn is one of the worst bands of the last 30 years. They go in the same ring of the hall of suck that holds Limp Bizkit and Linken Park.

[Timon19]

Bingo,

See line above.

(Seriously, what a fucking retarded genre both in name and music..."nu-metal"...Jeebus)

[Famous Mortimer]

"Alan rap in the late 80s/early 90s had some great stuff. Now its just about cars, gold, and strippers. In other words, its become the black version of hair metal. Too bad."

The problem with rap is that its grandiose materialism doesn't leave much room for an alternative rap scene.

Of course, there are rap groups that do produce what one would consider "alternative" material, but outside of popular artists like Outkast, in the rap industry you either let the record company doll you up, and do with you as they please, or you go the fuck home.

Although, I like the hair band analogy.

[John]

"An aunt of mine on my dad's side married into the Mexican oligarchy. All of her boys (three of them) were Metalheads who grew up in Mexico City, so Mexican goths and rockabillies come as a surprise to me as well."

A few years ago I saw ACDC in San Antonio. They sold out 20,000 at the Alamo dome and it was mostly Mexicans. Mexicans love their heavy metal. People forget that Tejano music is basically Mexican hillbilly music. Mexicans from the city have no use for it. Metal concerts were always a big deal in San Antonio and it wasn't just the white people who were going.

[alan]

For a pop metal band, I have a soft spot for Incubus. They seem to be focused on creating listen-able music, more so than some other abominations from the SoCal metal scene.

[John]

I like the hair band analogy to rap. Rap is basically where heavy metal was in about 1989, totally prepackaged and marketed to focus group white kids. It can't go on like this forever, something has to give.

[Cesar]

Yeah, Incubus was alright and had some good guitar work--very rare these days in mainstream bands.

Famous-

If my hair band analogy holds then maybe there will be a stripped-down "grunge" rap or something in a few years.

[John]

Incubus is not bad. They can actually play and sing in tune and have some listenable songs. I don't know if you would call them punk or metal but I have always liked the Off Spring. They are one of the few bands who can pull off being funny without being a parody band.

[Famous Mortimer]

Singing about how life sucks has been a pretty wide, and common theme throughout music history. Technically speaking, the blues was the first emo style, and the basis for popular music.

How about the Ronettes with "I Wish I Never Saw The Sunshine."

[Jim Bob]

Hoy BRUJERIZMO pa t? satanismo!
F? en lo viejo te est? chingando
Virus de cristo te est? fallando
Infesta gente jodiendo mentes
El organismo del Anti-Cristo!
BRUJERIZMO oscuro hallo
Desde ni?o Satanismo!
Contra todo Hoy BRUJERIZMO pa t? satanismo!
BRUJERIZMO! Cura joto
Cristo fallo!
Satanismo desde ni?o
Hoy BRUJERIZMO pa t? satanismo!
Si no cambian las leyes que mandan
Ya esta listo para negativo
Maquinas de hoy son como gente
Programados contra todo

[SugarFree]

Epi,

I have a group of college friends that went to New York and tried to hack it in Manhattan, and end up moving to hipster Brooklyn. They all work in Manhattan but it's as if it will kill them to have a fucking beer with me unless we jam arm-pit to asshole on the L train for 45 minutes and have it in Brooklyn.

I like to needle my friends with:

"When little kids dream of one day living in New York, they are thinking about Manhattan, not the boroughs. You want to move to Metropolis, not Gotham."

They always reek of sour grapes when I visit.

[SugarFree]

The first time I heard rap, I gave it six months, tops. I wish I had been even remotely right.

[Nick_M]

Someone above already commented that beating up emos just makes them more emo.

Which makes me wonder, has Mexico learned nothing from our War On Terror?

[Episiarch]

NutraSweet, all my Brooklyn friends were born-and-raised Brooklynites, so thay had their anti-Manhattan reflexes, but one expected them.

I could not have lived in the boroughs, and I find them annoying to this day. Manhattan only, baby.

[highnumber]

Weezer is not emo.

Correct. It's power pop. I have one of their albums, Maladroit. It's pretty good. Makes me hungry for lamb.

Most Mexican music seems to be pretty tragic and sad...

?C?mo? To my ears, Mexican music as a whole presents the same spectrum of emotions as American music. There's some really good rock en espa?ol out there if you have a look. Hell, some of you prog fans might even like some of Cafe Tacvba's stuff. Not to mention that some of you punk or ska fans might get into Cafe Tacvba. And if you Beatles fans have never heard Cafe Tacvba, you should check them out. And we can't forget Cafe Tacvba for the rap and metal fans.

Seriously, Cafe Tacvba busts more genres than Fishbone, the Clash, the Beatles, Miles Davis, and Herbie Hancock combined.
And they are always good.

Check 'em out here.

[ChrisO]

As a former white middle class metal head I take issue with that. Yeah, there was some real downer stuff about it, but that didn't cause people to sit around and feel sorry for themselves and act deep. It caused people to go out and vandalize things and get into fist fights and take copious amounts of alchohol and drugs and do all sorts of decidedly non-emo things.

That's a good point, but I think the emotional underpinnings are related, and I was also a teenaged metalhead. Of course, I became a metal guitarist rather than a drummer, so my thing was to sit in my room for hours on end practicing scales, rather than live the Viking barbarian life of a metal drummer or singer.

Singing about how life sucks has been a pretty wide, and common theme throughout music history. Technically speaking, the blues was the first emo style, and the basis for popular music.

Bingo! But at least blues, metal and punk musicians manage to have a sense of humor and perspective about the general suckitude of the world. Emo kids cut themselves, instead...

[Famous Mortimer]

"If my hair band analogy holds then maybe there will be a stripped-down "grunge" rap or something in a few years."

*Fingers Crossed*

Although, you just reminded me that grunge pretty much set the stage for the current evolution into what we now consider modern emo.

I hated Nirvana, and still do. I remember watching them as they debuted on 120 Minutes, and thinking, "So?" Of course, within months, you would think that rock music had just been invented the way they took off.

It reminds me of when Radiohead started to become popular with Kid A (in the bat shit crazy, mainstream sense).

Suddenly frat guys discovered that the avant garde actually existed, and thought that the laws of the universe had fallen apart, when it seemed like nothing more than Zappa-esque bullshit to me.

Sorry, I see Zappa as a wasted talent. His lyrics were about as meaningful to me as pulling names from a hat, which is how Thom Yorke wrote the lyrics for Kid A.

[GILMORE]

Episiarch | March 27, 2008, 2:01pm | #

People who are too poor to live in Manhattan...

Uh. $2000 for a 1 bedroom is for poor folk?

Maybe you're talking montrose, but down in my neck (Bedford) it's all rich fashionistas and couples and, yes, the daily parade of hipster trash.

I dont know why people would bitch about this place. The quality of life is better than manhattan and it's faster to/from here to most places in the city than say, the Upper West. Or York? 🙂 eh? eh?

I mean christ, if you can find a hood where's there's NOTHING to bitch about, then more power to you.

[rana]

Highnumber,

Cafe Tacuba is good, but it's a matter of taste. For me, its Man? anytime... And they are sooo far removed from anything "emo-like".

[John]

ChrisO,

Lack of a sense of humor is one of the more annoying things about a band or a cultural movement. The worst example of this is hippies. Hippies have no sense of humor and don't even understand humor when it was presented them. I heard George Harrison say one of the things that most frustraited him while he was a Beatle was that no one ever got the jokes. The Beatles considered themselves to be a really funny band and were constantly joking in their songs but the brain dead hippies never got it and instead were trying to figure out the deeper meaning in all of it. Goths and apparently Emos are the same way.

[Bingo]

Good point ChrisO. The difference is that other genres singing about the suckage of the world are either humorous, nihilistic, or angry. Emo is saying "my life sucks, pay attention to me!" It's all very self-centered. Also the singing and music itself is annoying.

[Cesar]

I actually liked grunge but I see how it went into emo. It had angsty-lyrics too but they didn't fucking WHINE about it. I think emo is kind of grunge gone bad. Its gone too far in the other direction, and it'd be nice to see rock bands sing about getting drunk and laid again, but that sets the stage for another-hair metal type thing eventually.

It all goes in cycles....

[SugarFree]

highnumber,

I agree on Weezer. They fit much more closely with Fountains of Wayne and other power pop outfits. If you like retro/power pop, FOW is great. I even if you hated "Stacy's Mom," try the first album. "Radiation Vibe" is one of the best pop singles of the last 20 years. (Keeping in mind I'm using "pop" in the genre sense, not the Top 40 sense.)

[GILMORE]

SugarFree | March 27, 2008, 2:02pm | #

GILMORE,

I'm suggesting emo grows up to become that. The common thread? Gas station attendant shirts.

Fair enough.

And Epi...

You need to get out more. I suggest we all hook up at the Long Island city Water Taxi Beach sometime in spring. Then do dinner at the crab joint behind there. Then you can take a nice boat ride back your ('non annoying'? *manhattan*??) idyllic land of communal perfection.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Bingo! But at least blues, metal and punk musicians manage to have a sense of humor and perspective about the general suckitude of the world. Emo kids cut themselves, instead..."

Exactly, and it's that self-deprecating humor that seems to be absent from much of the emo scene.

If you are able to balance the subject through crafty lyrics, then people will be tolerant of your more dour moments. Rockabilly was often like that. It could be heartfelt, yet playful in swift turns.

The minute you start taking yourself too seriously, a backlash is inevitable.

[Episiarch]

The quality of life is better than manhattan and it's faster to/from here to most places in the city than say, the Upper West. Or York? 🙂 eh? eh?

I mean christ, if you can find a hood where's there's NOTHING to bitch about, then more power to you.

Faster? Not if you take a taxi or black car everywhere 😉

Manhattan is for the people who...want to be in Manhattan. At least, that's the way it was for me.

[alan]

Bingo! But at least blues, metal and punk musicians manage to have a sense of humor and perspective about the general suckitude of the world. Emo kids cut themselves, instead...

Nothing is more fake than sincerity, Nothing is more phoney than authenticity.

You nailed it, that is exactly why the best punk and metal and rock music works. Truth is just a tongue in the cheek away. Are you listening Obama?

[John]

I think music is ready for the return of the three cord pop song. Get rock back to sex drugs and having a good time and producing short songs that have a good pop hook similiar to what the better punk bands did in the 1970s. Too much of music today is fake rap, R&B which is really just music for sensibilities 14 year old black girls, and Wussy white nerd rock.

[SugarFree]

The minute you start taking yourself too seriously, a backlash is inevitable.

One of the greatest moments of Behind the Music was Warrant boo-hooing that Nevermind hit big on MTV and killed the momentum for their third album. "Oh, no! We'll never have that big follow-up to 'Cherry Pie!'"

[Bingo]

Cesar: Emo is not derived from grunge. It's a sub-genre of punk/hardcore.

Grunge gave birth to post-grunge and nu-metal.

[Bingo]

I'm beginning to think this discussion was a trap to out the hipster cosmotarians.

[ChrisO]

Sorry, I see Zappa as a wasted talent. His lyrics were about as meaningful to me as pulling names from a hat, which is how Thom Yorke wrote the lyrics for Kid A.

Zappa's genius was hardly wasted--but it lay more in the music than the lyrics. If you're solely a "lyrics guy," then Zappa's probably not the best thing. But musically he's incomparable.

[Episiarch]

GILMORE, I will be in Manhattan April 26-27. But I have a dinner with 5-7 people at least already. And your idea would require me to leave Manhattan 🙂

[Famous Mortimer]

That's what I always loved about British bands. They generally understood the role of humor in lyrical writing. Of Course, that stemmed from their intense lyrical heritage, and their use of wit.

With emo type outfits there is generally only one emotion to experience. If they want to sound pretentious then they should go write symphonies. They're full of pretentious, grandiose bullshit.

I love classical guitar, but symphonies make me feel schizophrenic, or like I'm in the middle of a Tom & Jerry cartoon.

[BakedPenguin]

One of the greatest moments of Behind the Music was Warrant boo-hooing that Nevermind hit big on MTV and killed the momentum for their third album.

I could forgive Seattle a lot of sins for that...

[ChrisO]

I'm beginning to think this discussion was a trap to out the hipster cosmotarians.

That's right. You think those Mexican metalheads have a mean streak, wait until the libertarian metalheads show up to party. All four of us.

[John]

"You nailed it, that is exactly why the best punk and metal and rock music works. Truth is just a tongue in the cheek away. Are you listening Obama?"

I have to admit that if Obama had said something like "of course Reverend Wright is crazy, but what the hell was a supposed to do I am a half white guy from Hawaii running in a black district in Chicago, I had to get some street creed somehow", even I would have had to give him credit.

[Cesar]

Generation X is great for giving us good coffee, good beer, and killing off hair metal.

[Famous Mortimer]

Adios emos!

[ChrisO]

I have to admit that if Obama had said something like "of course Reverend Wright is crazy, but what the hell was a supposed to do I am a half white guy from Hawaii running in a black district in Chicago, I had to get some street creed somehow", even I would have had to give him credit.

I'd have voted for him if he did that, even though he's a total flim-flam artist.

[alan]

R&B which is really just music for sensibilities 14 year old black girls,

I blame Whitney. Before Whitney, R&B was a form of pop music that was saturated in the good stuff, rhythm, later on funk driven rhythm, blue notes and adults singing about adult situations. Then came Whitney with her pristine perfect voice that lacked color and the erotic blue, and her diva yelping at high pitches without any reference to the underlying harmony.

When I first her Lisa Lopes (RIP) sing in Atlanta in the early 90's it was like a breath of fresh air because I had not heard anyone in R&B sing like that in well over a decade.

[TallDave]

Next phase:

Emo gangsta rap.

I straight up capped that punk,
That made me sad and I cried
Why doesn't anyone like me?
Muthafuckin biatches are so unfair

[John]

Alan,

That is a good point about R&B. R&B used to be music for adults. In fact in the 70s it was along with country the most adult music you could listen to in that it dealt with real adult issues like sex and love and betrayal in a real adult way. There is nothing bubblegum about Marvin Gay or Aretha Franklin. Somewhere along the way it became the worst sort of teenage bubblegum pop. I never thought about it but maybe Whitney is to blame. There is a hell of a lot of distance between "I Never LOved a Man" and "How Will I Know".

[Warty]

libertarian metalheads show up to party. All four of us.

I'd like to see how well emo kids make out at an Entombed show or something.

Speaking of: Entombed + ballet wtf?

[ChrisO]

I blame Whitney.

I blame disco.

Both R&B and jazz went on a sharp decline from about 1977-83 that got us from Funkadelic and Mahavishnu Orchestra to Thriller and Kenny G.

[LibertyMark]

What a funny thread. Those graphic profiles of emo kids were right on. But what people think of as "emo" is all over the place. Emo has many influences, from sucky pop-punk to hardcore metal and punk.

If you want a huge list of emo bands, look at who plays at the Vans Warped Tour every summer.

I hereby admit my status as a 40-year-old man that likes several "emo" bands! I have attended the last three Warped Tours with my teenage nephews, and have seen first hand the sad assortment of emo kids in their costumes. Just trying on personas.

But out of the experience, I have come to like the following bands: Underoath, Thursday, Circa Survive, Chiodos, As Cities Burn, Killswitch Engage (KSE is not emo), among others.

[highnumber]

This talk of different genres being dead, like R&B since Whitney, or whatever, just goes to show that you all don't keep up. It's dead to you only because you stopped listening. There's tons of great R&B, from Angie Stone to Sharon Jones. Try paying attention.

[atrevete]

"There's some really good rock en espa?ol out there if you have a look"

Of course. And as good as groups like Tacuba and Mana are, rock en espanol =/= Mexican music in general. Nor does Mexican music equal Latin American music. Cuban music, for instance, tends to be more upbeat.

The tendency of much of Mexican music and culture in general seems to lean towards the tragic and yes, sad, when compared to other Latin American cultures. Compare the Mexican writer Manuel Gutierrez Najera to his contemporary, Cuban Jose Marti. You can see why Emo would thrive in Mexican culture.

[Famous Mortimer (Stoned)]

R&B has fallen off of its barstool. It's time for a renaissance.

Sometimes it feels like white artists have done much more to explore R&B traditions in recent years than black artists have. Jeff Buckley had a voice that made artists like Whitney Houston, and all of these ridiculous "ew-ew-ew" singers look like hacks. It was based more on people like Buddy Holly than Mary J. Blige.

Indie artists tend to revisit old formulas, and place new spins on them, and that isn't always a bad thing. What makes pop music wonderful is that it ultimately is a formula. It's a set of parameters that you can work in.

You don't see a lot of revisiting in rap and r&b. They're merely mining rap & r&b from the 90's. It's dominated by club, and ringtone based music.

I blame it on a rising tide of Libertarianism in the black community.

[rana]

"The tendency of much of Mexican music and culture in general seems to lean towards the tragic and yes, sad, when compared to other Latin American cultures. Compare the Mexican writer Manuel Gutierrez Najera to his contemporary, Cuban Jose Marti. You can see why Emo would thrive in Mexican culture."

I agree atrevete. Mexican culture may be more fertile for emos than Caribbean Latins... while I have heard there are some emos in Venezuela, one rarely sees them. Very rarely, and much like in Mexico, they are viewed as just plain wierd, and as a phase they will grow out of.

[Famous Mortimer]

"What a funny thread. Those graphic profiles of emo kids were right on. But what people think of as "emo" is all over the place. Emo has many influences, from sucky pop-punk to hardcore metal and punk."

Also, slow core artists were often slapped with the tag "emo." "Red House Painters" comes to mind.

I think we're showing our immaturity here as well.

What these emo kids are doing is not uncommon. They're trying on different personas as kids, and that's how people grow up.

Most people dressed, and acted in puzzling ways as children.

[BorisTheSpider]

As a 31 year-old, GenX, Seattle-sound loving dude from the Midwest that can remember when MTV rocked and when flannels were simply necessary, I am appalled by today's MAINSTREAM music scene. I forgot who said it in this thread, but there was a time, not too long ago, when Top 40 radio and about half a dozen stations on the dial had listenable, decent guitar based music.
The rap analogy to hair metal is perfect ... and popular music moves in cycles - from flashy and cocky to more substantive. A new cyclical trend is right around the corner ...

[ChrisO]

This talk of different genres being dead, like R&B since Whitney, or whatever, just goes to show that you all don't keep up. It's dead to you only because you stopped listening. There's tons of great R&B, from Angie Stone to Sharon Jones. Try paying attention.

I haven't listened to that much of the neo-soul stuff, but what I have heard (while much better than the hip-hop divas) still strikes me as producer-driven and somewhat hollow at the core. The singers are great, but they need to get out of current R&B assembly line mentality and work in an organic musical context.

But hey, that's just my opinion--obviously many people would disagree.

[highnumber]

rock en espanol =/= Mexican music in general

And emo ? American music in general. Everything is part of a whole.

You don't see a lot of revisiting in rap and r&b. They're merely mining rap & r&b from the 90's.

First off, that would mean they are revisiting, but apparently they're revisiting a decade that you don't care for. And second, no, you're not paying attention. I hear R&B that's influenced by all that's come before. If you like 60s soul, all sorts of people are updating that. If you like 70s funk, people are still recording funky jams. They may be working more modern influences into the music and you may not like that, but it is my solemn duty to let you all know that you're acting like old men if you say that such & such genre has been worthless since [blank].

[CBC]

Send in the New Mexican Disaster Squad to clean up this mess.

[LibertyMark]

Famous Mortimer said, "I think we're showing our immaturity here as well."

I agree. While it's fun to pile on, and people who purposely put on costumes to bring negative attention to themselves might deserve it, we should maybe be a bit more tolerant of weirdness. You know, being libertarians and all.

There's still good music to found in just about every genre, if one resists the arrow-of-time tendency to grow old and start saying stupid things like "they don't make good music anymore"

[Famous Mortimer]

First off, we're speaking primarily of top 40 music.

Secondly, I don't see the establishment of 90's R&B as separate from the modern style. I see it as a lack of evolution, whether good or bad, period. It's a shameless repetition in tone, and style.

Finally, you're right, I could give a frog's fat ass what goes on in R&B, and Rap.

You win.

[John]

"First off, that would mean they are revisiting, but apparently they're revisiting a decade that you don't care for. And second, no, you're not paying attention. I hear R&B that's influenced by all that's come before. If you like 60s soul, all sorts of people are updating that. If you like 70s funk, people are still recording funky jams. They may be working more modern influences into the music and you may not like that, but it is my solemn duty to let you all know that you're acting like old men if you say that such & such genre has been worthless since [blank]."

It is entirly possible that Blues Jazz and R&B are exausted art forms in that they have been done about as well as they can be done. There are some decent blues artists out there who really do some real down home stuff, but as good as they are they still are not as good as the golden age stuff from the 40s and 50s. The same is true with Jazz. It may be the case that the giants of the 20s through 60s took the music as far as it could go and everything else is just either an inferior copy or just inferior in general.

This is certainly the case in classical music. Classical music over the last 80 years has either been inferior knock offs of the great or really creative but wierd atonal stuff. Who knows maybe someone will figure out a way to make better R&B, Jazz and Blues that has ever been done but I doubt it.

[Famous Mortimer]

"I haven't listened to that much of the neo-soul stuff, but what I have heard (while much better than the hip-hop divas) still strikes me as producer-driven and somewhat hollow at the core. The singers are great, but they need to get out of current R&B assembly line mentality and work in an organic musical context."

Yes! It's a vocal gymnastics competition.

[highnumber]

Yer right that I'm right!

[Matilda]

"Heck, I'm not so old to not know what emo is, but I thought pretty much goth = emo."

Emo: Like a Goth, only a lot less dark and much more Harry Potter:

http://www.funadvice.com/q/goth_or_emo

[DannyK]

Clearly, George Bush needs to organize a modern-day Emo Exodus to resettle this persecuted minority somewhere. I nominate Detroit, which could use new blood.

[John]

"Emo: Like a Goth, only a lot less dark and much more Harry Potter:"

Does that mean like Goth only more overtly gay?

[Tommy]

"The Replacements or Husker Du."

Yea Twin Cities!

[Paul]

emo is doesn't out you as "over 25 and with a life." It outs you as at least 40, maybe 45, and completely unaware of the vast world of internet humor.

Eric S. I resemble that remark! Oh, btw, you won the thread with your lawn remark.

Oh, and furthermore, I actually do know what emo is, and I'm older.than.25.

[highnumber]

Anyway, the important thing here, the lesson we can take from this discussion of Mexican emo kids being bashed by kids from every other subculture is that if anyone sincerely wants to hear some really freakin' good modern R&B, check this out:

Angie Stone The Art of Love & War

[First Little Pig]

200 comments on this? Ha ha ha ... What a great group reasonoids are.

[Paul]

Emo is a pathetic, retarded form of goth.

Emo is Goth's retarded cousin.

[Paul]

First Little Pig...

"for a magazine called Reason..."

C'mon, you know you want to say it.

[Art-P.O.G.]

we should maybe be a bit more tolerant of weirdness. You know, being libertarians and all.

Amen.

Yeah, I'm coming to this thread late. I've seen almost everything I like dissed, from my favorite band (Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark) to the emo subculture with which I closely identify myself (although the 'emos' don't identify with me)).
I grew up alienated (I was only one of a few black people at my elementary and middle school, etc.), my alienation led me eventually to pretty much not care at all about being 'cool'. Since I already did not fit anyone's stereotype of how a black guy should act or dress, I was free to identify myself with any scene I wanted. Even though I'm not all mopey and have a sense of humor/irony, I closely identified with those despised 'emos' (I think, as I was someone who always felt like an outsider myself).
So I was well on my way to being a prototypical black emo before I joined the Army and got a bunch of tattoos (2 partial sleeves).
I make minimal effort to be emo and hang out with a bunch of people from different scense. I do catch flak whenever I paint my fingernails black.

P.S.: If you want to hear some good rap, I recommend Wu-Tang, Aesop Rock, Outkast, Lupe Fiasco, The Roots, et al.

[Chuck]

Emo kids are destroying America ... so when can we expect the government PSA to air on TV? Maybe it will show a group of metro-emo teens packed into a car at a drive-thru, listening to Saves The Day or Jimmy Eat World, and suddenly, inexplicably accelerating to smash and kill the innocent little lass on her tricycle.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Oh, and if you think emo isn't ironic or self-effacing enough, try Say Anything. Very good, almost traditional rock (Brand New also has its virtues).

[Tiny Tim]

"Check Mate: Pet Shop Boys"

Not so fast...

[Jesse Walker]

Over 200 comments! Emo is the new Ron Paul.

[LibertyMark]

If Ron Paul had a gig at the Warped Tour, I'm pretty sure the kids would dig him.

[LibertyMark]

BTW, I wore my Ron Paul rEVOLution t-shirt to last year's Warped Tour in Houston, and all I got was a big thumbs-up from one guy and an amicable discussion with two poor deluded 17-20 year olds handing out Communist Party lit.

[dhex]

Emo is Goth's retarded cousin.

the retarded cousin of a retard is still retarded, though.

oh ho ho ho ho!

someone was telling me about a really good mexican grind type band, overly technical and insane a la discordance axis or perhaps even the locust.

any ideas?

[Art-P.O.G.]

dhex: Mars Volta?

[highnumber]

dhex,

I am sending an email to the King of Metal. He will be able to answer your question.

[Bill]

"I never thought about it but maybe Whitney is to blame."

Nope, Donna Summers

[elvis moe]

"Eric S. I resemble that remark! Oh, btw, you won the thread with your lawn remark."

Lawn remark -- Not original

[John]

"I never thought about it but maybe Whitney is to blame."

Nope, Donna Summer"

Donna was more disco than R&B and in her defense there is nothing bubblegum about Love to Love You Baby.

[Episiarch]

I am sending an email to the King of Metal.

Yngwie Malmsteen?

[mk]

Jimmy Eat World played during half time at the MLS championship. They seemed like the kind of thing that frat guys would listen to.

Pet Shop Boys? don't sully their names. They are disco geniuses. Their remix of Rammstein's Mein Teil has been in high rotation on my winamp playlist for a year.

[dhex]

no, none of those finger tapping fruitloops. satriani, yngwie (his freak out .mp3 is awesome though, the thing on the plane thing) that mentally ill dude with the chicken bucket on his head, uhhhh all those other assholes. kings of being sort of boring and extremely talented at the same time, perhaps.

i appreciate your intercession with his royal metal highness, broseidon.

dhex: Mars Volta?

dude, that's not even fucking funny.

[Citizen Nothing]

This whole thread makes me think I should be posting at the new "Hit & Run, Clueless Geezer Edition."
I'm cueing up my iPhone so I can listen to some classic Elvis Costello, hug my knees, rock back and forth and await the sweet release of death.

[Art-P.O.G.]

dude, that's not even fucking funny

One time I did see this Mexican-(American?) band playing on Austin City Limits. They were doing a sort of garage thing. They were really good and I have no idea who they were.

[John]

"One time I did see this Mexican-(American?) band playing on Austin City Limits. They were doing a sort of garage thing. They were really good and I have no idea who they were."

Los Lobos perhaps?

[Art-P.O.G.]

It wasn't Los Lobos. The lead singer was a diminutive fellow clad in a black t-shirt with a lightning bolt on front. He basically sneered his way through his songs.

[dhex]

speaking of weird hybrids, there's always nortec.

it's not as much fun as it should be, really. but still hybridy.

[Jim Bob]

In case it hasn't been posted yet.

[Episiarch]

Acid Damage McGee, if I give you a quarter, will you go by a sense of humor? The Malmsteen thing was a joke. If I wasn't joking I would have said somebody without a ridiculous Swedish name.

[alan]

mmm, Donna Summer, when I was six, I wanted to do Donna Summer so bad . . .

[Jim Bob]

Oops, I'll try that again:

POAST.

[alan]

When they first came for the emos, I did nothing because I am not an emo,
and then they came for more emos, I again did nothing because I still was not emo. They pretty much stopped with the emos and that was fine by me.

[dhex]

Acid Damage McGee, if I give you a quarter, will you go by a sense of humor?

dude, king kong ain't got nothing on me.

i would say i not only "go by" a sense of humor but i am indeed known by a few dozen in several sections of various counties throughout the tri-state area as having a sense of humor.

the suggestion that one could buy a sense of humor is, of course, absurd.

also responding to anything related to the mars volta with "that's not fucking funny" is indeed fucking funny.

[Episiarch]

The question is: did I brilliantly say "go by", or did I screw up and leave out the "u"?

I will never tell.

[lordsomber]

What do emos want?

Locally, the emos' thrust is to facilitate Self-Centered Public Gushing and Cred-Building. But down the clothesline, few get specific. The ambiguity is a dense pall of Parliament?, wafting in no particular direction.

[highnumber]

Did the "Acid Damage McGee" nickname originate with dhex's self-description at Urkobold? or does it predate that?

(We're still waiting for the King of Metal's response)

[lordsomber]

Emo strategists know that they're having real trouble finding a new groove for their gang. This is understandable. A subjective posse must establish a new identity, regardless of how derivative it may be. "Me-too-ism" only fleetingly wins fashion points - then too few and too early in the game. To co-opt Free-Thinkers would reduce the emos to insignificance even faster than their recent concentration on blackening the names of those outside their Sphere of Annoyance.

[Nonny]

"One time I did see this Mexican-(American?) band playing on Austin City Limits. They were doing a sort of garage thing. They were really good and I have no idea who they were."

Los Lonely Boys?

[lordsomber]

The Emo-dominated realm bitterly resents intrusions on its privileges from outside its domain. Denial of this simply crosscuts the grain of history as heretics are crossed off the proverbial Guest List.

[Zedderoonie]

Perhaps they are fighting for food? Aren't all Mexicans starving, and that is why they come to America and take my job? Whoever said they're all assholes was spot on, and the whole mocking emo thing is now more annoying than the kids who are identified (self identify?) as emo. That's emore!

[Marshall]

Irritating, because the whole emo thing is a perversion of the original genre: emocore and emotive hardcore. It's nothing to do with this pop rock Panic at the Disco sort of thing and the obnoxious scene fashioncore stuff.

Obviously violence is not the answer and the youtube videos of these kids getting smashed into walls are kind of horrifying to see. The ignorance of the people beating these kids up is astounding. Neither the abusive kids nor the whiny ones understand what emo is. Ignorance.

It almost makes me want to go cut myself and cry.

[Famous Mortimer]

It's just another horrifying effect of global warming.

[GILMORE]

Episiarch | March 27, 2008, 2:28pm | #

""The quality of life is better than manhattan and it's faster to/from here to most places in the city than say, the Upper West. Or York? 🙂 eh? eh?""

Faster? Not if you take a taxi or black car everywhere 😉

I live 1 block from the L, and am 1 stop from 1rst ave, 2 from Union Sq. That was my point.

Manhattan is for the people who...want to be in Manhattan. At least, that's the way it was for me.

Was? Ok then. Clearly it was where you wanted to spend the rest of your days.... or not....

Maybe you'd live in brooklyn now if you'd spent more time here. 🙂

I really shouldnt waste time debating NY neighborhoods with temporary NY'rs. You were probably no different than the 5 year tourist.

Aka - average Manhattanite.

Some of us were born here and have a slightly different perspective. Not that it matters. Some people WANT to live on the upper east like it's manifest destiny or something. They tend to be from long island.

[GILMORE]

p.s. FWIW i was born in manhattan, grew up in brooklyn, lived in manhattan again for 6 years after college, then came here. I wasnt a 1 way transplanted brooklyner like most i live around. I make fun of the uber-pro-brooklyn kids that you do as well because they're mostly from Wisconsin or something here at art school.

[alan]

New Yorkers, to know you is to love you

My first white girl was a New Yorker, so I wont give you too hard of a time.

[Lamar]

In Orlando, mobs of angry idiots attack skaters with tasers and cinderblocks.

[Grumpy]

Have no idea what's an EMO, (emu?) but starting 'EMOS for Concealed Carry' here.

[The point of it is]

You guys are missing out on what truly is awesome about this and the whole meaning... beating up some faggy kids. (who cares what group their in)

[Joel]

I think that people shouldnt be doing this because who r we to be beatin up people for just the way they dress or there style. Stupid fucks grow up

[Rob]

Jimmy Eat world isn't emo.....EMO is not punk it is not screamo either....its Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco on top as their 2 best.

3 Doors Down is Southern Alter rock like Collective Soul only faster and harder.

For an emo band you must have fashion plus "sound" both of which suck. It's like gay boy band death cults. Its very gay...literally

[Rob]

"As Bill Hicks said, if you hate drugs then just go home, burn all your best old albums, and start listening to New Kid on the Block."

Bill Hicks was and is a fucktard

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