Just How Many Shoes Are About to Drop?

"Turkey risks US anger over plan to attack Kurds"

Comments

[Pro Libertate]

Oh, goody. Is there something in the water over there? How about letting them in on the little secret that E.U. entry will never happen if they start messing with the Kurds in Iraq?

[Zoidburg]

Such a move could put Turkey on a collision course with the United States, which has repeatedly warned against unilateral action in Iraq.

Do as I say, not as I do.

[Mark B.]

Here's another little secret - if the US military cooperates with Turkish troops against PPK guerillas, it will quickly find that their Kurdish "friends" will become a whole lot less friendly.

Frankly, I don't think the EU gives a damn whether the Turks move against the Kurds or not, as long as they don't tangle with US forces in the process.

[the other Mark]

I know...I'll stop this war by getting naked and riding my bike through the streets!

[Robert]

Turkey is vastly over-rated as an asset. Why should their interest be favored over that of the Kurds, just because Turkey has an extant nation-state?

[thoreau]

Sometimes when you turn a corner you find yourself in a very dark alley.

[thoreau]

How much more fucked up will things have to get before certain people acknowledge that our efforts to transform a region have failed?

[P Brooks]

"Here's another little secret - if the US military cooperates with Turkish troops against PPK guerillas, it will quickly find that their Kurdish "friends" will become a whole lot less friendly."

We have already screwed the Kurds; their situation is worse now than when they were a semi- autonomous region defended by the no- fly zone. If we can't keep the reins pulled tight on the Turks, we can expect the Kurds to cease being our pals.

[aspendougy]

The Kurdish North is the only part of the Country that is working............striking back at them will increase, not decrease guerilla activity inside Turkey, which, thus far, is on a small scale.....the larger and more stable a Kurdish enclave in Iraq, the better it will be in the long run for Turkey......they should learn the Lesson from our disastrous mistake in Iraq.

[thanks ron!]

Everyone who pushed this war -- not just Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, but also Reynolds, Hitchens, and Bailey -- deserves our thanks.

[chris]

We'll all get along fine as soon as everyone realizes I'm Jesus fucking Christ.

[DB]

How much more fucked up will things have to get before certain people acknowledge that our efforts to transform a region have failed?

A lot more fucked up than they are currently -- after all, things aren't currently any more fucked up than they were in the 90s.

And considerably more than three years will have to have passed.

[Adriana]

I wonder why anyone is surprised? This is one of the many unpleasant consequences that would result from the idea that you can bring democracy at the point of a gun to people who do not have the insitutional infrastructure nor the civic culture for it. Unfortunately some people never heard the story of Cantaluppi and the refrigerator...

(Cantaluppi was a farmer who, coming to the city was duly impressed by a refrigerator, and bought one. He slaugheted his pig, and instead of curing it, put the meat inside the refrigerator. A couple of days later, when he opened it, he found out, in a very smelly way, that a refrigerator needs electricity to run.)

That idea "let's get the bad guys out, let's liberate oppressed people, let them live in democracy, and we will all live happily ever after" was tried by Woodrow Wilson first. The results were disappointing at best.

Now GWB has decided that he can do Wilson right...

(Folly ought to be capital crime...)

[simple]

don't forget too that we are amassing national guard troops on our border with mexico. personally i would prefer we go for canada when our turn comes around

[JEFF]

Don't look now, everyone wants a piece of the action.

"SEOUL, July 19 (AFP) Jul 18, 2006
North Korea has launched a wartime alert, putting its armed forces and nationals in a state of a war mobilization, an unconfirmed news report said here Wednesday.

Kim Jong-Il, head of the communist country, issued an order to that effect hours before the United Nations Security Council unanimously condemned North Korea's missile tests last week, said the Joongang daily, quoting an unnamed government source.

Government officials were unable to be reached for confirmation early Wednesday.

North Korean soldiers on leave were told to return to their barracks, camouflage nettings were being draped on military vehicles and weapons, and people were prohibited from entering the countryside, the source said.

The alert was not issued publicly but spread quietly through military and civilian emergency networks, the daily said.

North Korea announced a war mobilization in 1993 at the height of a stand-off with the United States over its nuclear weapons programme."

[Timon19]

Yeah, those Noble Savages just don't get democracy. They don't know any better!

[joshua corning]

How much more fucked up will things have to get before certain people acknowledge that our efforts to transform a region have failed?

Is it your contention that the region has not been transformed???

[joshua corning]

This is one of the many unpleasant consequences that would result from the idea that you can bring democracy at the point of a gun to people who do not have the insitutional infrastructure nor the civic culture for it.

wait a minute...are you talking about Turkey or Iraq...

[OregonCoast]

A lot more fucked up than they are currently -- after all, things aren't currently any more fucked up than they were in the 90s.

Good call DB. Now that we can admit that our presence in the ME does not make things any different, it's time to put a halt to the crusade and save time, money and lives.

[The Real Bill]

How much more fucked up will things have to get before certain people acknowledge that our efforts to transform a region have failed?

You'll be waiting a while. Some people believe that the effort has just begun; that is, war with Iran and Syria is required.

[errrr]

I don't understand why a Kurdish state wouldn't be a good thing for the Turks and the region. I know the turks are a bit sensitive and irrational about such sentiments but in the end, I think a Kurdish buffer state from the civil war in Iraq with some vague semblance of democracy and civility like they have now is in the best interst of Turkey...Turkey needs to look for better ways to deal with non-Turks than genocide.

[Mo]

errr,
Because there is a huge Kurdish enclave in Turkey that borders the one in Iraq. If there is a Kurdish state, the Turkish Kurs will either want in or want their own state. Turkey does not want to lose that part of their territory and does not want to deal with the increased instability that the calls for autonomy will call for.

[Tom Scudder]

The question is, does Turkey have the right to defend itself against guerillas based across the border, carrying out attacks in its territory? There does seem to be a certain precedent...

[Adriana]

joshua corning:

I am talking about Iraq, obviously, since I talked of W's folly.

The historical record is not encouraging when it comes to this kind of experiment

[thoreau]

Some people believe that the effort has just begun; that is, war with Iran and Syria is required.

What do you believe?

I believe that people who want wars with Iran and Syria are dangerous lunatics, and they should be locked in padded rooms and given first person shooter video games with Arab enemies so they can work out their aggression. And they should be given massive doses of medical marijuana until they finally chill the fuck out.

[Ruthless]

This is my rifle
This is my gun
This is for fightin'...

Most people fail to realize that their government is their gun.
It's not for fun.

[George W. Bush]

The question is, does Turkey have the right to defend itself against guerillas based across the border, carrying out attacks in its territory?

That's crazy talk! No country has the right to attack another country, let alone invade one, just because an armed guerilla group is making attacks across the border and assisting terrorist activities inside the first! I mean, where would you get the idea that such an act of aggression would be acceptable?

[Pro Libertate]

I just can't believe that Turkey is going to risk its relationship with the U.S. and with the E.U. for kicks. This is probably just saber-rattling. Probably.

I still think we should give all of Iraq to the relatively sane Kurds, with a guarantee to the Turks that we'll support them against any Saladinian type moves in its direction. Or not.

[Madog]

Does Turkey *want* and independent Kurdistan?

On the plus side, if there was a Kurdistan then Israel wouldn't be the only nation that the rest of the middle east hates.

[belle waring]

I'm with thoreau. but I think oponents of war with syria and iran should be given massive doses of medical marijuana too, because this shit is seriously starting to freak me out.

[Pig Mannix]

Is it your contention that the region has not been transformed???

Ok, I'll grant you the region has certainly been transformed. But exactly how useful is a transformation from a disaster to a catastrophe?

[Mark VIII]

How much more fucked up will things have to get before certain people acknowledge that our efforts to transform a region have failed?

Much more....we're looking a shit that would turn you white! Mass Hysteria! Cats and Dogs living together!!

[thoreau]

Much more....we're looking a shit that would turn you white! Mass Hysteria! Cats and Dogs living together!!

CNN is reporting that a giant marshmellow monster is toppling buildings in Tel Aviv.

[Eric II]

As it is, Turkey's been staging "hot pursuit" raids into the Kurdish parts of Iraq for a while. There have also been reports of the Iranian military firing shells across the Iraqi border at Kurdish guerrillas.

So unless the Turks are planning something really massive, I don't think an incursion aimed at taking out PKK camps will have serious geopolitical repurcussions. For all the talk of Kurdish declarations of independence and Turkish declarations of war, I think the status quo suits everyone too well for a serious disruption.

[Eric II]

For all the talk of Kurdish declarations of independence and Turkish declarations of war, I think the status quo suits everyone too well for a serious disruption.

Which kind of reminds me of a geopolitical tinderbox about 8,000 miles to the east, now that I think about it.

[crimethink]

How about we just release Saddam from prison, give him his old job back, retreat back to Kuwait and pretend nothing happened?

It's looking more and more attractive every day.

[Mark VIII]

marshmellow

Thoreau,

Much in the vain of Fleming and his thumbling discovery of penicillin, you have inadvertantly stumbled on a marketing coup.

Marshmellow. Like Marshmallows, only smoother, more delicate, more sophisticated. The key to consumer domination is tricking people into thinking that they're buying into something special, almost refined.

Patent that title good sir and you could well make it yet in the advertising racket.

[thoreau]

Mark-

What are you talking about? I no how two spell reel good!

[Pro Libertate]

No, no, no, thoreau, here's the correct retort:

Althaea officinalis, or "marsh mallow" (also "marsh mellow" in the Farfegnugen region of Nunavut), a perennial plant native to Europe and naturalized in marshes of eastern North America, having showy pink flowers and a mucilaginous root occasionally used as a demulcent and in confectionery.

That, or say that you'd been drinking too much Marsh Merlot. Chortle.

[thoreau]

Patent that title good sir

Where's Dave W. when you need him? 🙂

[sam]

The Kurds kick ass. They have women in slacks, moutains, grass, and pizza toped with fried eggs. I think we should put them in charge, give them the bomb, and go home.

[thoreau]

pizza toped with fried eggs

Don't tell the Chicago City Council.

[nobody]

Not marshmellow, Harshmellow!

[thoreau]

SPELL THE NAME OF THE DESTRUCTOR!

[Mark VIII]

NEXT TIME SHE ASKS YOU IF YOU ARE A GOD....YOU SAY YYYYYEEESSSSS!!!!

[ed]

The Kurds kick ass....I think we should put them in charge, give them the bomb

What if Turkey gets The Bomb first?
Will they make cheese kurd?

[The Real Bill]

thoreau,

What I believe is irrelavent, since I don't vote for the D's or the R's.

[Kara]

Errr,

Turkey has always looked at the Kurdish land as desirable. And there is no sense of community, since the Kurds are not Arabs, but rather Meads (Iranians are not Arabs either).

In addition, the Kurds are viewed as gypsies of the area. They have several religions and Islamists want to get rid of them. Many Kurds worship a green guy that lives in ponds and they have a sizable population that are Zorasters (however you spell it).

[thoreau]

Real Bill-

If you think that your voting habits render your opinions irrelevant and unworthy of discussion, then why do bother coming here to discuss your opinions?

[Pro Libertate]

Medes and Zoroastrians.

Not to get on any anti-Arab rants--I'm not anti-Arab beyond the whole terrorist attack thing--but it is worth noting that a lot of the high culture attributed to medieval Arabs could arguably be traced back to the Iranians. If you want to get all West-centric, then you could even attribute some of it to Hellenization.

Maybe we should divvy up the Middle East between the relatively secularized elements of Iran and the Kurds. What the heck? Nothing else has worked. Of course, if it were up to me, we'd just throw up our hands and stop meddling. While making it clear, of course, that certain actions would not be tolerated. Period.