Torture Twofer

A U.N. report due out later this week apparently concludes that conditions at the Guantanamo Bay prison violate various international conventions on torture and calls for the camp to be shut down "without further delay." Meanwhile, for those of you who didn't get your fill of nude pyramids and electrodes the first time around, a series of new images from Abu Ghraib prison has been released; Reuters has posted a video montage of some of the new images.

Comments

[Zubon]

Media outlets worldwide have continued their principled stand against printing materials that could offend or inflame violent passions, promising not to air or reprint these images. CNN led the pack, commenting...

Actually, I do not have the exact quote there. Does anyone have a link?

[Jennifer]

Zubon, I agree it is loathsome the way our media won't reprint those cartoons. Even so, are you not able to see the difference between refusing to print a cartoon and refusing to print photographic evidence of crimes?

[Hakluyt]

Always fade out in a montage,
If you fade out, it seem like more time
Has passed in a montage,
Montage

[AmyLou]

wait a minute, I thought the MSM was taking the high road an not posting any images that offend or inflame muslim sensibilities...

[Jennifer]

Since all the photos and videos are bound to come out sooner or later, including the snuff films and depictions of rape, the government ought to just release them all at once and get it over with, rather than have them come out in dribs and drabs and just prolong the problem.

It's the same way that jumping into a cold swimming pool is better than easing yourself in bit by bit, and ripping off a Band-Aid all at once is better than pulling it off slowly; it only prolongs the agony.

[MP]

lol!

Even Rocky had a montage!

[Tolly]

Sure, intelligent people can see the difference between the photos and the cartoons. The question is - how are the cartoons causing the "impotent rage all through the Muslim World" any less news-worthy than photos of a imbroglio that's already been beaten to death? "All the news that's non-offensive to violence-prone groups AND fit to print"?

If a group were to threaten violence over these photos or to claim scandalous offense over them, would the media at large shy away from printing them?

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Yes, Jennifer, getting rid of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo should be done like a bandaid... RIGHT OFF!

[johnl]

Good thing we held onto the photos so long so they can be news again.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Yes, Jennifer, getting rid of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo should be done like a bandaid... RIGHT OFF!

[Phil]

a imbroglio that's already been beaten to death

Unfortunate choice of words.

[SmokingPenguin]

Just wondering - did the Muslims protest/riot as much over the last Abu Ghraib revelation as they did over the cartoons?

I don't want to make light of the abuses at Abu (& Gitmo), but I have to wonder about the mentality of people who view a sacreligious drawing as more offensive than the torture (or even unjust imprisonment) of a human being.

[Jennifer]

Has the imbroglio really been "beaten to death"? I still see people who insist that what went on was nothing worse that a fraternity hazing. Keeping the worst photos from the public eye only reinforces that lie.

[SmokingPenguin]

Just wondering - did the Muslims protest/riot as much over the last Abu Ghraib revelation as they did over the cartoons?

I don't want to make light of the abuses at Abu (& Gitmo), but I have to wonder about the mentality of people who view a sacreligious drawing as more offensive than the torture (or even unjust imprisonment) of a human being.

PS, Haklyut & MP - Have you chipped in your $1.05?

[rob]

Hmmm... Further images of the guy (Graner) who has been rightly imprisoned for the crimes depicted in those photos is news? Well, I guess that if new photos surfaced of some other guy who is famous only for crimes he's already in jail for, that would be "news" - I'm just not sure how it's "new."

Now if there are people who haven't been tried for their crimes revealed in those photos then THAT would be "new" and "news," for sure.

And maybe evidence of the conspiracy to cover a conspiracy to torture that goes all the way to the top.

(Cue Ken Schultz!)

[Jennifer]

So Rob, are you saying that any Abu Ghraib photos we haven't seen yet should be swept under the rug and never seen by anyone?

[fyodor]

Smoking Penguin,

I believe it's safe to say that quite a few things have occurred to Muslims which many of us would consider a little worse than drawings of Mohammed which were not met with as much protest.

Regarding all the animus towards the press, yeah, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe they really didn't print the cartoons out of fear. But y'know, it's easy to criticize, and it's easy to claim that if you were in the same shoes you'd do something different. But so what.

[Tolly]

Punny me- beaten to death, he says.

Some people are never going to agree on the severity of the prison treatment. Even someone who's prowar shouldn't be proud that the US sinks to depravity in war. However, reprisals were made by our government to those who were involved (again, some people disagree).

The elephant in the room is that media organizations will reprint most anything that's in the news, regardless of it's ability to inflame segments of the population. But when a batch of (derogatory at best) cartoons make the news because they slight islam, suddenly there's newfound respect and tolerance. Has freedom of the press always teetered on niceties like that? I'm just embarrassed that so many of my artistically ethical compatriots are so chickenshit when it comes to putting their money where their principles are.

[Pro Libertate]

Let's take our lumps. We did wrong and should accept the consequences of our actions. No, we're not as bad as the bad guys are by any stretch, but one of the reasons we aren't is because we have a relatively open society and have mechanisms for dealing with governmental actions that we don't like.

As for the people who think the abuse of prisoners and indefinitely detaining people we suspect are innocent is just peachy, well, then you shouldn't care whether the photos and other information come out or not.

Incidentally, it is hypocritical not to run the cartoons while running the abuse photos. While I agree with Jennifer that the abuse photos are more important to run in the greater scheme of things, the stated rationale for not running the cartoons applies here, too.

[c]

Well, running the cartoons and running the photos are a little bit different. If you buy the argument that depicting the prophet unfavorably (or at all) is the sin, then running the cartoons is the commission of the offense. Running the photos is just showing a record of the offense. The maltreatment would have happened whether or not you ran the photos, or whether the photos were even taken in the first place. As such, running the cartoons is worse.

[Hakluyt]

SmokingPenguin,

Yeah, when I bought Ibn Warraq's book (Why I Am Not a Muslim) two years ago.

[Stevo Darkly]

Has the imbroglio really been "beaten to death"?

Nope. Still alive.

Although she has complained of being "shamed lying naked on the floor."

[thoreau]

That's right, Stevo. People can go around making stuff up about how she's been beaten to death, but illusion never changed into something real.

[Stevo Darkly]

You're a little late. She's already torn.

[VM]

Stevo: LOL. first round is on me, next time!

cheers!

[SR]

"Nope. Still alive. Although she has complained of being 'shamed lying naked on the floor.'"

It might be added, however, that later on she changed her story to say she was "lying bound and broken on the floor," so that sounds at least like a Geneva Convention violation.

[rob]

"So Rob, are you saying that any Abu Ghraib photos we haven't seen yet should be swept under the rug and never seen by anyone?" - Jennifer

No. If that's what you read from what I wrote, no wonder we argue so much!

BTW, I don't think we all have to take our lumps for abuses committed by specific individuals who have been (and continue to be) punished by our legal system, as Pro Libertate seems to.

I also don't agree with this: "Some people are never going to agree on the severity of the prison treatment. Even someone who's prowar shouldn't be proud that the US sinks to depravity in war. However, reprisals were made by our government to those who were involved (again, some people disagree)." - Tolly

Some people don't see the prison treatment being conducted by one seriously nasty individual -Graner - and his crew of subordinate sycophants who gleefully participated in the abuses as proof that it was ordered by higher authority. The lack of authority stopping this is this real issue here, and there's a multitude of middle management sins there.

But these abuses were NOT a matter of interrogation policy being changed to institute torture as an acceptable method of interrogation. Particularly since you can see the official playbook and the worst thing in it is water-boarding... Bad enough, that, but certainly nothing like Graner and his idiots got up to.

[Ken Shultz]

Particularly since you can see the official playbook and the worst thing in it is water-boarding... Bad enough, that, but certainly nothing like Graner and his idiots got up to.

DFTT

[Trooper Jones]

About punishment ...

During the Philippine Insurrection there were courts-martial for actions on Samar. A lieutenant and a major were aquitted and a general convicted.

Now we don't bother at all about the officers, just the enlisted who carried out their orders.

"Bad juju" as we are sometimes wont to say ...

[amazingdrx]

Good for Reuters.

Now let's see the rest of the western media live up to the standards that neocon politicos suggest is appropriate for muslims in the 'toon instance.

How about a few Bush/Abramoff photos? These are not even insulting.

If western culture can't stand the truth about their leaders, how can we expect muslim culture to tolerate insults to their religious leaders.

[bigbigdistractorslacker]

I don't know why you people think this is newsworthy. Look over there, Cheney just shot a man in the face.

[rob]

"DFTT" - Ken Schultz

I thought I knew most acronyms...

[Qbryzan]

"DFTT"

I think it's Don't Feed The Trolls

[rob]

Ah, and in Ken Schultz's warped version of reality he thinks I'm a troll. Got it...

Of course, in Ken's universe basic reading comprehension skills aren't necessary for interpreting gov't documents, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he thinks I'm a troll.

Thanks for the intel, Qbryzan.