Live Stupid, Die

Radley Balko is threatening to detail stupid-ass legislation from coast to coast, starting with New Hampshire.

Comments

[brian423]

Is it too late to pick a state other than New Hampshire for the Free State Project?

[coarsetad]

2006 New Hampshire worst case senerio:
An underage babysitter is an hour late to work due to a change in day-light savings time. Therefore jumps into her toy boat and speeds to work. As she passes a cop, the pumpkin in the back of the boat falls out... so she is caught: Speeding in a toyboat, littering the state fruit, to a illegal job. A background check pulls up that she is also wanted for running an internet hunting business.
Well, at least the state can't sell her into slavery in Massachusetts.

[Ed]

Yeah, these things are always good for a laugh, but exposing them has absolutely no effect on their propagation. We chuckle and point and deride the silly legislators and wake up the next day to find out it's now illegal to park a red truck in our own driveways.

[DaveInBigD]

I assume that the FSP is why Balko started with New Hampshire. Does point up what an uphill battle it is.

[Bonar Law]

Most of these bills seem dumb, indeed. But what about this one:

"Rep. Clifford Newton of Rochester wants judges to be able to suspend your driver's license if you get caught littering and fail to pay the fine."

Here?s the text of the bill, plus fiscal analysis. Among other things, the bill would have a convicted litterer's license suspended for up to ten days if he doesn't pay his fine. To get his license back, he'd apparently have to pay a license-renewal fee.

Is this really all that ridiculous? What's wrong with imposing a ten-day license suspension on a litterer who can't or won't pay his fine? Especially since the alternatives seem to be (a) ignoring the failure to pay the fine, in which case those who *did* pay their fines would look like saps, or (b) locking up the non-fine-payer, or garnishing his wages.

By the way, look at the titles of some of the other bills introduced by Clifford Newton. He looks almost like a libertarian:

"relating to eminent domain. Providing that property can only be taken for public benefit other than increased tax revenues."

"reducing the rate of the timber tax."

"reducing the rate of the communications services tax."

"requiring school boards to disclose the financial costs of contracts to the voters."

Yeah, what a dumb-ass!

[brian423]

LOL, coarsetad

[JD]

I like Balko, but some of these are silly on Balko's part. Take the "pumpkin as state fruit" one. Just about every state has a state fruit (tree, bird, amphibian, rock, etc.). It's not like it costs the taxpayers anything. So what? The "daylight savings" one: Sure, it's a little goofy, but we already have laws about daylight saving in most places. Indiana's even more messed up than that. So what?

[Alan Vanneman]

None of the "legislation" cited by Balko is legislation. These are all bills that either have been introduced or that may be introduced. Why not expose existing legislation that restricts, e.g., my right to operate a slaughterhouse or a half-way house for convicted murderers in your neighborhood? It's my property, after all, not yours. Live free or die, damn it! Live free or die!

[Rich Ard]

Pedant point: legislation can refer to either the sausage or the grinding process.

[Paul Sand]

My personal favorite, not mentioned by Radley: straight ahead on red!
(http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1145.html)
Vroom! Live Free or Dieeeeee!

[Syd]

But at least they kept their heads and wouldn't allow a left turn at a red light.

[linguist]

Chalk one up for Virginia!

[linguist]

Damnit! Where's my post?

Anyway, the link for the story I meant to refer to is:
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=97994&ran=82523

[linguist]

Vroom! Live Free or Dieeeeee!

(Chuckle.) Someone last night was telling me that some of these fancier new cars can record the words of people driving them. (I have never heard of this technology and didn't get the details, but anyway...)

He said that in most states, the last words of people who got into accidents was, "Oh, Shit!" But in WV, AL and WY, the last words were usually, "Hey, watch this!"

[Eddy]

It's not like it costs the taxpayers anything.

Just the cost of having crap go through the process. Given most of this will just go away or morph into something it was never intended to be, I'm not sure I see the point.

"There Oughtta Be a Law" that allows for the dope slapping of politicians when they come up with something stupid or to address their personal pet peeve. Sorry Reps Field and Cady, you will just have to wait like everyone else [whack!] Sorry Guvna' you'll have to stop and pay the toll too [whack!] (and here is another for taking my money for tokens and then declaring the tokens void and non-refundable [whack! with an ez-pass])

[linguist]

I've decided that the real problem with government in the U.S. is that it works.

It works so well, and we are so well-governed, that there's nothing left for "lawmakers" to do! As citizens, we don't really get the chance to say, "OK, you can stop now! We have enough laws! Really!"

Can we try crying "uncle"?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Actually, the littering law would be much too lenient. Tossing a bagful of used Mickie Dees wrappers out the window at a stop light, dumping dead washers and mattresses by the roadside, & grafitti all should carry the death penalty.

[Kwix]

Hey, does anybody know the bill number of the "slavery" legislation. I am having trouble finding it.

[JD]

Eddy - If voting on a state fruit keeps the legislators from doing any worse damage, then I for one say it's money well spent!

[downstater]

for some reason, i agree, littering is one of those crimes that drives me friggin crazy.

if one more burning cigarette flies toward my windshield at 70 mph...aarrrggh!!

look, i don't push for your right to smoke to be banned, you can do me the favor of keeping your damned butts in your car! that's why there's an ashtray.

[Ed]

I hereby concur with downstater and would like to see a law that snips off one stinky finger per offense. Zero tolerance! Filthy addicted litterpiggies!

[Lazlo]

Someone last night was telling me that some of these fancier new cars can record the words of people driving them. (I have never heard of this technology and didn't get the details, but anyway...)

They're probably talking about GM's OnStar. The FBI has used it (or a similar system - GM denies it was theirs) to monitor passenger conversations in a vehicle.

[Bonar Law]

"Hey, does anybody know the bill number of the 'slavery' legislation. I am having trouble finding it."

Yeah, I typed "slave," "slavery," "enslavement," and "enslave" into the NH legislature?s search engine, and I got zip.

In the Massachusetts legislature, my various slavery-related searches yielded only one result:

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/house/ht01/ht01779.htm

This is a bill for a study commission on the effects of slavery in Massachusetts.

"In selecting the members of the commission the emphasis shall be on persons who are especially qualified to serve on said commission by virtue of their experience as descendants of slaves, their education or training or experience, particularly in the field of African-American studies."

[James]

In one of the few posts to my shortlived '96 blog, the ardofficial news, I reported that the No New Laws party had taken over congress. Their first order of business was to start reviewing existing laws for overturning. To bad hardly anybody was online to read it back then, I could have had carpet humping man adorning my side-panel by now. If someone steals my ardofficial idea, I'll know it was you, Rich.

[Kwix]

BonarLaw,
Yeah, that's all I came up with as well. I guess I will keep looking.

[dead_elvis]

My personal favorite, not mentioned by Radley: straight ahead on red! (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB1145.html) Vroom! Live Free or Dieeeeee!

Oh my God, my dream law... I can't believe it's finally seen the light of day... How many hours of our lives have we wasted, sitting at some stupid red light, with nobody coming, yet being presumed too stupid to know when it's safe or not safe to go.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

DE, spoken like a true libertarian. Good Job Man.

Ed & Downstater, agreed. I live in a small community with few ways to get out onto the main road. We have some asselonian that empties his ash tray at the stop sign at the highway every fargin day. Even my smoker friends have noticed and commented on the mess.

[James]

Dead E. When I used to drive to work at 5:30 I would run the same red light by the shopping mall every morning. Until I wrote a letter to the traffic light people. They changed the bogus light, which had obviously been programmed by the mall developer.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Plus, in our neck of the woods, or lack thereof, fire is a constant danger, particularly in the fall. Don't throw yer got dam butts out the window.

[Mr. Ed]

Introduced by Rep. Mitchel B Denham, Jr on January 3, 2006, to exempt from sales and use tax straw, wood shavings, and sawdust used in agricultural or equine pursuits.

What is up with horses ? California sales tax forms has a similar exemption, but its for race horses only, not just any horse of course.

[Mr. Ed]

[Wilbur]

Try again, Mr. Ed.

[Mr. Ed]

[A HREF=http://www.reason.com]REASON[/A]

In the above example I have changed the angeled brackets to [ and ] so it can be read and not interpreted. I would grateful for any info on what I am doing wrong.

[dead_elvis]

the link needs to be enclosed in quotes.

[A]REASON[/A]

[dead_elvis]

I find it sort of annoying that this is the only site I visit that requires the regular HTML tag for links. Every other site lets you just use something like [url]address[/url]

[Mr. Ed]

My silly hyperlink (courtesy of dead_elvis's help)

[Paul Sand]

The text of the proposed New Hampshire anti-slavery legislation (actually anti-"peonage") is here.

From the Boston Globe: "Rep. Jordan Ulery of Hudson [NH] is sponsoring a bill to make slavery a state crime. He is concerned about human trafficking and illegal immigrants being forced to work under duress."

[Ed]

I propose a new State Motto for N.H.
Live Free, Or Not

[Bonar Law]

Paul Sand,

Thank you for the link!

The law is against peonage, which is related to slavery but not identical with it. The press ought to be more precise.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Linguist:

Yeah I was surprised that Virginia's odious anti-IVF law didn't make Hit & Run on it's own. On the local news affiliate, I saw the Republican pile-of-shit who dreampt it up this bill tell a female reporter how "children have the right to know their fathers" and that overruled the "selfish" desires of unnmarried women (or, to be honest, lesbians) to reproduce on their own.

From Linguist's linked article:

On the off chance that Marshall is truly targeting single motherhood, not just homosexuality, he should introduce a bill outlawing divorce, and a companion piece mandating IUDs for all females over 12.

Banning divorce is something I wouldn't put past the family values fascists, but I doubt they'd approve of IUDs. Afterall we're all supposed to abstaine from sex until the church (with the state's approval) sanctifies our perpetual, monogamous, hetrosexual marriages.

[Again]

"Is this really all that ridiculous? What's wrong with imposing a ten-day license suspension on a litterer who can't or won't pay his fine?"

Because what the hell does littering have to do with one's ability to operate an automobile safely? Don't you see the slippery slope here? Jailing him would actually be far more appropriate than suspending his license.

What this is about, is the government has far more success using its leverage in handing out driver's licenses to obtain payment of fines than it does by hiring collection agencies. Of course the only reason government should be allowed to hand out licenses in the first place is to try and control the safety of its citizens on public roads. When government suspends licenses on matters completely unrelated to that basic issue, they've quite obviously crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed. I driver with a spotless driving record who passes all the tests required by law, has a _right_ to operate a motor vehicle in this country. Taking it away because he's a litterer (or in the future: a petty criminal, gun owner, deadbeat dad, smoker in non-smoking areas, illegal downloader of music, swearer in public, porn star, etc.) is an obvious abuse of power, even if it's a relatively tiny one.

[MainstreamMan]

"I driver with a spotless driving record who passes all the tests required by law, has a _right_ to operate a motor vehicle in this country.

I think, maybe, that libertarians see "rights" whenever it involves something they WANT to do. I am pretty sure rights should be reserved for more important issues than driving, like voting, free speech, privacy, association and the like. I think that driving is a privilege you earn by showing ability and responsibility. Littering out your window might be good enough to show that you've only got half that equation mastered. Hence, you lose your privilege.

Rights and privileges. Not the same thing. But then again, I also think it is my right to run a house of poenage next door to your house that makes toxic chemicals as long as I own the land on which the activity occurs. Or wait, it that a privilege that my neighbors allow me when they agree to share the community space with me?

[John Rhoads]

I think most libertarians understand the distinction between rights and privileges particularly well. It's kind of the foundation of libertarianism. That being said, asserting a right to drive is ridiculous. Asserting a right to drive given the means (vehicle, gasoline, etc.) and a publicly funded roadway seems perfectly legitimate to me. If govenment can steal your money to build a road for the public good, then you have a right to use that road...seems pretty straightforward to me.

[MainstreamMan]

"I think most libertarians understand the distinction between rights and privileges particularly well. It's kind of the foundation of libertarianism."

Ahhh, if only that were apparent by the discussions on Hit&Run. It seems like it should be true. I have just read too many posts about how such and such a minor change in some law is an example of rights being infringed by the oppressive majority. As if the community working through the democratic process is somehow an out of control power grab of some type.

Many list things like their right to run a business free of government regulation (even if that regulation is aimed at assuring the right of the consumer to be free from dangerous practices),the right to produce toxic substances on their own property despite the fact that those substances will not be contained to their property (either temporally or spatially). The right to subject others to tobacco smoke in places of business even though the community has decided that behavior is an unfair burden on workers that restricts their right to pursue a reasonable standard of living.

The point is that many seem to assert a right to do what they want without taking in to consideration the rights of others in the community to be free from their inconsiderate, dangerous, or uncivil behavior. I think the lines are more difficult to draw than that and that the processes we have in this country are designed to help draw those fuzzy lines. When libertarians go ballistic and claim rights that have not been traditionally defined, they need to come up with better justification for claiming that right than I typically see on Hit and Run. The "you can't tell me what to do" or "you are just trying to control me because you are a prig" arguments are made far too often. Doesn't do much to move the dialogue towards a compromise solution that balances the rights of the community at large with the rights of the individual. A bias in favor of the community is assumed by many non-libertarians. It is up to the libertarians to give reasons for why the bias should be tilted towards the individual.

[Bonar Law]

I'm glad MainstreamMan has shown such enthsiasm about supporting my position, but in fact my reasoning is somewhat narrower than his.

If someone's convicted of littering, he is fined -- which infringes on his right to property, but this isn't automatically wrong in principle. *Soneone* has to pay for the cleanup of the litter, and if the litterer doesn't pay, then innocent taxpayers might end up stuck with the cleanup bill.

If the fine is legitimate, then it is also legitimate to punish someone who doesn't pay the fine. In other words, if a litterer compounds the offense by failing to pay his fine, what should happen? Should he go to prison? This would restrict his right to drive just as surely as suspending his license. But prison seems a bit harsh. A 10-day license suspension, plus a fee for a license renewal, seems more proportinate.

[Bonar Law]

"proportionate."

[mediageek]

I find it sort of annoying that this is the only site I visit that requires the regular HTML tag for links. Every other site lets you just use something like [url]address[/url]

AND MUTHA' EFFIN' HOW!

[Ross]

A bill Balko writes about, which I support, illustrates the limits of human stupidity. Currently (at least in New Hampshire) there is "Internet hunting," where "hunters link their computers to remotely controlled guns. The ?ranch? then attracts deer or other wildlife to the area and, for a fee, hunters can shoot them by clicking a mouse." Omitted in the discussion is whether or not the victimized animal is then emailed to the hunter.

Somehow, it seems to me that a good video game would do just as well. Another thought was that maybe the technology could be applied by terrorists or political assassins. Hmmm. . . Can you see in now? ?The Mafia Goes Hi-Tech!? I?m going to make it part of my ?We need more guns? political campaign in support of the NRA.

[Dar]

Ed & Downstater - While I do not like anyone to empty an ashtray in the street I find those upset over an occasional cigerette butt flying out the window amusing.

Our local nannies have decided that a cig butt is worthy of a $500 fine for littering and community service hours.

Yet daily I see the concrete trucks pulling out from their fill station dripping wet cement all over the road along with nice big rocks. How much are they being fined and how much community service do they have to perform? I mean hell I never had a cig butt take out my $600 windshield but these trucks have certainly accounted for many busted car windows and chipped paint. Add to this the real safety issue of their littering rocks at a busy intersection that pile up creating gravel slicks at the very spot we are supposed to stop cars traveling 50 mph. Trying to go from concrete to loose gravel and braking is not safe. Maybe thats why there are weekly pile ups at this corner. Then again maybe its the cigarette butts.

Shall I go on about 18 wheeler re-treads flying off at 70+ mph and smashing car bodies and windshields? Or the wrecks caused when people panic seeing a large whip of hardened rubber and steel flying at them?

So glad those cig butts are off the street. I feel safer driving now. Add to that no more roids in baseball and fuck whats left to worry about.

Ask your doctor if its right for you!

[Bonar Law]

Balko wasn't complaining about the $500 fine provided for in the bill. Maybe the proposed fine is too high, but Balko's complaint was about the license suspension for non-payment. Whatever the fine for convicted litterers may be, there should be *some* consequences for not paying the fine.

What are the alternatives? Putting the non-payer in prison? If keeping the guy off the road for a couple weeks is excessive, then a couple weeks' imprisonment would be excessive, too, because if you're in prison, you're *ipso facto* not on the road (unless you're in one of those road-crew chain gangs).

Put the guy on probation? Well, I suppose probation officers could deal with non-finepayers during their copious free time in between monitoring thieves and rapists.

Have the sheriff seize the guy's property and auction it off to pay the fine? Garnish the guy's wages? Those options seem kinda excessive as well.

Some temporary inconvenience, enough to provide an incentive for timely fine-paying, seems like a good idea to me. There may be better ideas, but this is not in the same category as minimum ages for baby-sitters.

[hyperlinker]

I find it sort of annoying that so many of the other sites I visit dumb down HTML so that people don't have to go to the trouble of learning the tiniest little thing about how the web works. Thanks, Reason, for not assuming we're all idiots!

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