Right Analogy, Wrong Analogee

Here's an insightful observation from President Bush at a Q&A session he participated in earlier today:

It also makes sense to take pressure off the border by giving people a legal means on a temporary basis to come here, so they don't have to sneak across. Now, some of you all may be old enough to remember the days of Prohibition. I'm not. (Laughter.) But remember, we illegalized whisky, and guess what? People found all kinds of ways to make it, and to run it. NASCAR got started -- positive thing that came out of all that. (Laughter.)

What you're having here is you've created a -- you've made it illegal for people to come here to work that other Americans won't do, and guess has happened? A horrible industry has grown up.

Sound point, sound point. Except, I've got a niggling feeling that this analogy is even more apt for some other public policy question… what could it be, what could it be?

Comments

[SR]

"we illegalized whisky"

I was going to make a smartass comment about the President's speaking habits, but checking the OED, I do see that "illegal" can be used as a verb, although the last reported example is from the April 28, 1866 issue of Cosmopolitan: "The official presence of representatives from the bogus State of Western [sic] Virginia illegalizes its functions."

[joe]

"we illegalized whisky"

*tweet*

Illegal use of the verb, five yard penalty and loss of down. Third down.

*tweet*

[Shem]

No good Julian. Part of getting elected to high office is having the part of one's brain that controls the ability to reflect on decisions removed. Why do you think they love polls so much?

[mattc]

Drugs are pure evil. So that analogy doesn't work for the drug war. Its the typical hypocrisy of mainstream American politics, silly.

I often wonder how so many our legeslative decision makers can personally explain all that hypocrisy. I guess that's why "moral relativism" is such a bad word(s) for those in Bush's corner.

bitches...

[Yogi]

-ooo.. ooo.. I know.. I know... Call on me! Call on me!

-ahem, yes, Yogi, go ahead....

-Beer!

-No, I was refering to drugs.

-Huh? But that's bad.

-Doh!

[MikeP]

It could be the policy question addressed by the bill Bush signed yesterday. You know... the one discussed in the immediately prior thread.

[Ruthless]

Next George "Uncle Remus" Bush will be regaling us about Brer' Rabbit and dat dare tar baby.

[crimethink]

mattc,

I think you hit on what Bush's thinking might be on the matter. For instance, no one here (except maybe Ruthless) would support legalizing contract-killing, even though the same analogy applies.

[Herrick and His Balls]

Julian, you've been writing on Andrew Sullivan's blog. Can you answer a question that's been nagging me? How does he smell?

[peachy]

Can we at least have duelling back?

[Ruthless]

Herrick,
I'm glad you jumped in here because I wanted to share with you specifically that I got the result of my prostate biopsy today, and El Prostato is still as cute and as succulent as a button.

crimethink,
Thanks for preserving my "exceptualness."
Come to think of it, legalizing contract-killing is a little bit of an oxymoron.

[JD]

I think the President was right by accident, as it were. If you can say "legalized", why not "illegalized"? It's clunky - "outlawed" would be better - but I don't think it's wrong.

[Peter Tosh]

Illegalize it, don't criticize it.

[Warren]

Hey, my dearest wish is to pay tax on marijuana before I die, but pushing for imigration liberalization is just about the only decent thing president Jr. has done. He's saying something good here and that is very rare. So I just want to take the oppertunity to say, Hooray for Dubya.

[Horshack]

Ooooooh!

Ooooooh!

Mr Kotta!

Ooooooh!

[Kebko]

"you've made it illegal for people to come here to work that other Americans won't do"

I agree with most of the sentiment, but this comment is bogus. The only reason nobody will do those jobs is because the labor market is flush with illegals who do it for wages far below what any of us would accept. If the illegals weren't here, labor rates would rise to levels considered acceptable for someone living in America, and many of the jobs would be replaced with capital investment and mechanization, which would be a very good thing long term.

[rm2muv]

I'm sorry. I don't care how adept the President is at drawing fine analogies, I just don't think we should legalize coyote racing.

Wait...oh, you mean...

Well, sure. I'm down for that!

[Wired4more]

Kebko, it is comforting to know that other people recognize the fallacy of the "work other Americans won't do" argument. When our politicians say this it shows they dont understand simple economics and they are out of touch with Reality. I used to wash dishes in the back of a restaurant and hoe sugar beets. These are jobs that young Americans will do for a legal, competitive wage.

[bob]

"hoe sugar beets"

Besides the fact that ho-ing sounds too reminiscient of the sex trafficing thread, anyting to do with sugar production in the USA would be decidedly less profitable if you removed government subsidies/price controls/import tarrifs on sugar.

On the other hand, everybody needs clean dishes and as far as I know, there isn't a whole lot of government interference with this (beyond EPA standards for dish washing machines etc...)

[peachy]

I'll have you know, I always go to the local coyote races to celebrate after ordering a contract killing...

[Douglas Fletcher]

"er ah"

*tweet*

[too many steves]

Ok, so if we're doing analogies then I would say the legalization of marijuana (or decriminalization, if you prefer) will depend on coming up with a sport analagous to NASCAR. Somehow, though, I can't imagine a bunch of dopers racing, or engaging in any sport, can you?

[jw]

Considering the fact that there has been a treaty proposal on the table for several years now that would allow Bush's friends in Big Oil to go in and re-develop Mexico's nationally owned oil fields, I can see why Dubya wouldn't want to piss off Mexico or Vicente Fox by "illegalizing" the solution to Mexico's ecconomic and population problems. "Temporary"? What a joke!

[Chuck]

too many steves--

we used to have contests to see who could do the biggest hit without coughing. Maybe that could become a sport?

[Julian Sanchez]

What, you people didn't go to high school? Hackysack, of course.

[Drinky]

Is hacky sack a sport?

[Drinky]

Missed it by that much.

[Jung Merican]

wired4more
These are jobs that young Americans will do for a legal, competitive wage.

I don't understand this logic...if we're talking about removing legal constraints for immigration, mary jane and coyote racing, why would we get all legalistic when it comes to setting wages? Besides, it seems somewhat elitist (racist?) to say that an immigrant's willingness to work for less somehow is unfair to a real Yung 'Merican.

[Warren]

Re:Work Americans won't do.

It is equally bogus to assume that employers will pay higher wages if cheap labor was unavailable. Assuming it can't be outsourced, the up front costs of automation become more attractive with bigger long term payoffs. Some work, will simply not be done.

Liberalizing immigration will put upward pressure on wages. Legal status will go a long way in empowering the migrant work force. Employing illegal immigrants is itself illegal, and incurs risk to the employer. That risk is a business expense that makes sense only because labor is cheap.

[Randolph Carter]

Excellent use of the word "niggling"

[Dar]

Companies love to hire illegals because the pay is cheap and there is no talk of benefit packages etc. No Americans want to work for those wages because its not enough to survive. Unless, you have 15 people living in an apartment, don't have to pay car insurance and get all your health care for free.

What I can't understand is if it truly is illegal to be here and is a violation of law why the hell aren't they kicking in illegals doors at 3am to take them back home? If this tactic works so well against our own citizens surely it will be effective for this issue also. I can see the headline now. Immigrant Task Force kills 12 illegal aliens during early morning raid because informant gives wrong address. Turns out the illegals the informant was talking about lived next door to these illegals. Long story short illegals families sue government and win big money for the deaths of their family who never should have been here to begin with. Same thing happens to a citizen and its opps sorry our bad, but he did have a roach in his ashtray, have a nice day.

Its illegal for them to be here, its illegal to hire them to work here. What part of illegal does the government not understand? They sure seem to know what it means if I have a joint! Oh the negative impact to society by me and my joint far outweighs the impact of the 11 milion illegal aliens when it comes to national security and the children.

Ask your doctor if its right for you!

[Allen]

too many steves:

Snowboarding?

[Warren]

Dar,
Let me explain... No, there is too much, let me sum up.

The problems of illegal aliens, like the problems of illegal drugs, stem from the illegal part. Both problems would be vastly improved if we allowed the market to function legally.

[zach]

I think you hit on what Bush's thinking might be on the matter. For instance, no one here (except maybe Ruthless) would support legalizing contract-killing, even though the same analogy applies.

Well, contract killing really is evil. So MattC's principle of voiding the application of analogies due to evilness (?) actually does apply in some cases. I just pity the mind that equates smoking a joint with physically harming another human being.

[Don Mynack]

Bush is absolutely right here. Of course, part of any negotiation should be liberalizing Mexico's ridiculously oligarchic business environment - it's stupidly hard there to start a small business, which is what many illegals do here quite easily. Really, you just have to walk around my neighborhood to see lawn crews pulling trailers with relatively new trucks and equipment (easy credit terms) or working construction as tradesman with new tools. Many have employees, many have SSN's (you can buy cards at the flea markets, if you are lucky the numbers might be legit). The point is, if these entreprenurial people could stay there and do this work there - they would. But it takes to many payoffs to too many gov't slimeballs that you can't make a profit - they just throw up their hands and walk across the border. The point is: these people aren't stupid, they know where the money is, and they go get it. Why should we penalize that?

[downstater]

football? (ricky williams, randy moss, etc.)

[Rimfax]

Julian,

What I want to know is what awful thing you had to do to Jacob to beat him to this post?

[Johnny Clarke]

How about a reality tv show where competing teams of middle-class Americans try to smuggle pot across the border? It's not a sport, but it might be fun to watch.

[StoneyBaloney]

Don, In Mexico, it is NOT stupidly hard to start a small business. It might be stupidly hard to start some types of businesses. There isn't much of a welfare system there and most people seem to make ends meet. And Hacienda (Mexico's IRS) isn't very agressive either. In fact much day to day life in Mexico might score high on a freedom index.

Check it out sometime.

[vincente]

$25 billion a year homes. Somebody has to pay the Panistas chauffer salaries.

I don't recall who wrote this first, but it remains true (if implausible): If the U.S.-Mexico border were sealed off, there would be a revolution in Mexico within five years.

[ChrisO]

Mexico as a beacon of freedom. You mean other than all that government bribery and corrupt police stuff...the lack of a legitimate justice system is probably the biggest impediment to Mexican prosperity.

[nofollowthis]

Sound point, sound point.

Those who are able to think things through realize this is a false analogy.

[nofollowthis]

The problems of illegal aliens, like the problems of illegal drugs, stem from the illegal part. Both problems would be vastly improved if we allowed the market to function legally.

OK, let's make all those current illegal aliens legal, but leave everything else the same. Can anyone see a problem?

Yes, that's right! Those same corrupt corporations that are currently allowed to hire illegal aliens will simply hire a new crop of illegal aliens to replace the ones who are now legal.

What's that? Yes, very good! The problem lies much deeper and it involves politicial corruption.

Surrendering and giving corrupt corporations and the Mexican government what they want will not work. The root cause has to be addressed.

[SteveInClearwater]

TOOMANY STEVES quips: Somehow, though, I can't imagine a bunch of dopers racing, or engaging in any sport, can you?

SH: You can tune in several nights a week on either TNT or ESPN and see the National Basketball Assocation in action. Current players acknowledge that cannabis use is very common, even prior to games. REtired players put the level of use at well over 50% and some as HIGH (hahahahaha) as 2/3 of the league.

[SteveInClearwater]

But of course that would mean the Prez would have to acknowledge the NBA and all those "Negro men who get high and then want to rap-----errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, date white women, many of them your very own daughters."

[Kahn]

StoneyBaloney,

In Mexico, it is NOT stupidly hard to start a small business.

You must be stoned on baloney. I live near the border and the Mexicans I've talked to catagorically contradict you. They came here because they couldn't survive the corruption back home.

Kebko, it is comforting to know that other people recognize the fallacy of the "work other Americans won't do" argument.

Aw, you guys had to go ruin it. And here I'd thought we found Bush getting at least one thing right.

But, whether or not there's any analog between prohibition and illegal immigration, the problem remains clean and simple: we either build The Great Wall of America on the Mexican border (which it seems we cannot afford, and it may not work so well anyway), or else we live with illegal aliens.

Get used to it. They won't stop coming over the border.

Unless you'd like to annex Mexico outright, and impose law and order on it. Hell, we already took part of it. This might be cheaper than that wall they been babbling about.....

Yeah, I know, everbody would scream that we deprived Mexico of its right to self determination. Silly me.

Seriously, annexing Mexico is a stupid idea. But, serious question: at what point does a national government forfeit its "rights", including that of "self determination", in the same manner that an individual criminal does?

[kevin]

I agree with you the way you view the issue. It is also interesting to see different viewpoints & learn useful things in the discussion.

[Dar]

Won't be much need to annex Mexico if they are coming across the border at 1 million plus a year in about 20 years I would think most all of them will be here already by then.

I am all for a military base stretching from the Pacific to the Gulf. Practive all your bombing and artillary right down there. I think that may slow down the insurgents.

Mexico could care less if they stop people getting across since their 2nd largest source of income if all the illegals here now sending home US $$$$. I think they government of Mexico might actually support those wishing to come here. After all they have brochures made with tips about crossing into the US, what more proof do you need than that. Not to mention the tunnels that seem to be appearing on the border. Does anyone else find it off that the Mexico side entrance to these is on land operated by the Mexican Military and Government? Just a coincidence I am sure.

[too many steves]

Ok, I stand corrected, but they ain't quite NASCAR now are they?