Happy Thanksgiving, Open Forum

We'll be on a reduced schedule from now until Monday. I hope everybody has a happy Thanksgiving.

Feel free to use this post as that open forum you kids are always looking for—but please remember that only inside voices will be tolerated!

Comments

[crimethink]

I've got an idea! Everybody say something nice about the person who posts before you.

I'll start by noting that Tim Cavanaugh is a very forgiving person; he's been very civil with me even though I once called him a b---h and told him to dance on a toilet bowl.

[Hakluyt]

crimethink isn't the most foolish religionist I've ever met. 🙂

[Number 6]

Hak may be an asshole, but he's a thought-provoking asshole. 😉

[David]

Number 6 really is Patrick McGoohan.

[Anonymous Member of the Scandi]

Hak is my favorite ex French Marine- engineer

🙂

Happy Thanksgiving to the entire Reason Team. Thank you for a fantastic magazine, a great forum, and for being generally swell people.

Cheers!

[Viking Moose]

d'oh - too slow.

David has the best name in the forum!

[thoreau]

Viking Moose is the friendliest poster on this forum.

[George W. Bush]

Thoreau is a great American.

[Warren]

George W. Bush ordered the deaths of fewer people than Joseph Stalin.

[Mr. F. LE Mur]

Warren isn't as much of an asshole as I am.

[Shawn Smith]

Mr. F. LE Mur composes better posts than I do.

[Jim Walsh]

"Mr. F Le Mur" sounds kinda cool, like a character in a Tarantino flick.

[Jim Walsh]

Oops - a little slow there...

Shawn Smith, makes me think of Shawnee Smith, who is a super hot-looking actress.

[mediageek]

Because of Jim Walsh's post, I did a Google image search for Shawnee Smith, and must agree, she's pretty hot.

[Twba]

mediageek is a faster googler than I

[JDM]

TWBA could well stand for Trans World Bitchin' Airlines, which would be kind of cool.

[Rimfax]

JDM consumes far fewer of my tax dollars in ag subsidies than ADM.

(We really need a 'who posted what' link like on the old Deja News website before Google at them. I've got no idea what JDM has posted.)

[Eric the .5b]

Rimfax has a good idea! Possibly hard to implement, depending on the comment software, but good.

[Tim Haas]

JDM takes "creative acronymism" to dizzying new heights. (Apologies for the SCA pun.)

[MayDay72]

Tim Haas does a good job of converting oxygen into carbon dioxide...

[Tim Haas]

Damn, I was slow.

Rimfax made a better ADM joke than the one I was considering.

Eric is an agreeable sort.

[Lowdog]

Tim Haas has never made me angry.

[zach]

The people on this forum have more to say than 90% of the people I see post on message boards these days. Oh uh, especially whoever posted just before this.

[zach]

That Zach is especially brilliant, and good-looking to boot.

[Eric the .5b]

The people in this forum really get into the spirit of extended jokes and larks.

[mediageek]

Anything funny worth doing is worth over-doing, in my estimation.

Eric the .5b has a difficult name to say aloud. But looks kind of cool onscreen.

[dave b]

Eric the .5b has half the fat and calories of the regular Eric the b.

[Rimfax]

dave b's last name (judging by his slyly obfuscated email address) looks like it might rhyme well with 'haggis'.

[mediageek]

I can think of a far worse six letter word that starts with Rim. Thankfully Rimfax didn't go that route.

[B.P.]

Whoever posted directly before me is doing a standup job of loafing on company time. Now go and steal some office supplies.

As long as this is an open thread: Hey mediageek... how did the Denver Reasonoid meetup go? I got in a little later than expected from Orlando, so I couldn't make it downtown within a reasonable time frame. I hope to make the next one.

[pigwiggle]

In communist Russia previous poster compliments you.

[Ken Shultz]

pigwiggle wouldn't have been worse.

[Pro Libertate]

You were great on Hogan's Heroes.

[crimethink]

Pro Libertate is a skilled Latinist.

crimethink isn't the most foolish religionist I've ever met. 🙂

Is that cause you've never met me?

[Tim Haas]

Eric the .5b has a difficult name to say aloud.

"Halfbee" or "not halfbee" -- that is the question.

Pro L knows his ablative case.

[mediageek]

Tim Haas just used a word that I don't know, but it sounds dirty.

B.P.- It was a lot of fun. I initially thought I was being optimistic with a reservation for ten, but we ended up having fourteen or so people show up!

As always, it was pretty cool getting to put some names with faces, though surprisingly enough, lurkers outnumbered actual posters.

Loud, raucous coversations about economics, drugs, guns, the law, computers and about fifty other topics were had.

Beer and other drinks were imbibed. Food was eaten. Cigarettes were smoked...

All in all, it was a lot like one of these threads, except no one showed up naked.

[Tim Haas]

Tim Haas tries hard to type faster than the other boys.

[mediageek]

mediageek has a sweet ass.

Also, I'll be posting pics tonight, or if I get attacked by a case of the lazies, Saturday.

[crimethink]

mediageek isn't the one who screwed me out of my compliment.

[Tim Haas]

Someday, he won't fail. He promises.

[mediageek]

Crimethink posts a lot of well-thought out stuff, and then throws in a dash of snark, just for fun.

[dead_elvis]

Mediageek doesn't hate America. At least as far as I know.

And he's probably never posted a comment in the wrong thread.

[Les]

dead elvis is still the king.

Hope everyone here has a great holiday.

[Hakluyt]

dead_elvis didn't kill his teacher and no one found semen in her stomache.

[dave_b]

Les is always more.

[Rick Barton]

Although I'm not into guns, I greatly appreciate mediageek's commitment to our 2nd Amendment rights, and he's a very nice guy as well.

[martin]

Happy Thanksgiving to the Reason crowd.
May there soon be another party!

"but please remember that only inside voices will be tolerated!"
??? huh, I'm dense...

[martin]

Oh yes, something nice about the previous poster.
Sure... :))

martin is the nicest, best looking bloke in his entire village of 23.
So there you have it.

[Rick Barton]

I'm glad that martin has joined our forum.

(good-in order)

[Phil]

Rick Barton has excellent taste in music.

[Cliff]

I'm glad that Rick is glad. You all make my day better every time I visit H&R. I hope all of you yahoos have a great turkey day with all the trimmings. Seasonally yours, Cliff

[Adam]

Cliff and Phil have great synchronicity.

[urexcellency]

Adam has beautiful budding bosoms.

[Derek Ashworth]

Aside from his mad alliteration skillz, urexcellency has a pleasing, soup-like smell.

[Slainte']

Happy Thanksgiving to the potentate of Ur, and all the rest of you.
Cheers, good health, here's looking at you, slainte'.

[Nick Gillespie's good twin]

Slainte' has a pleasing, salty taste.

[Nick Gillespie's good twin]

Slainte' has a pleasing, salty taste.

[citizengnat]

Nick Gillespies good twin looks almost as good in a leather jacket as his brother.

I really want this thread to set the all time h&r post record.

[Paul]

Proof that all public property is theft:

re: the protest going on at Bush's Crawford, Tx ranch-- a county ordinance now blocks anyone from sleeping by roads or camping in ditches within seven miles of the Bush ranch. So a "sympathetic" private property owner opened up his land to the protesters.

What is owned by 'the public' often blocks public use.

[bob mologna]

citizengnat ia always so hopeful.

[Timothy]

Adam wouldn't have been tricked by that pesky reptile and his female companion.

[bob mologna]

Paul's a good guy even if he is off message.

[Paul]

bob mologna is wrong on one thing:

I'm actually not that great a guy. And it's precisely because I don't play along... usually... unless there's alcohol involved.

Paul

[John L's Ghost]

"I buried Paul" goes well with Thanksgiving dinners.

[bob mologna]

But, is he really Paul? Or is he "Faul"? You know what I'm talking about. The "real" Paul was always so damned upbeat.

[J]

bob makes me think of bologna, which goes great with mustard. Mustard, however, does not go great with bob.

[David Rollins]

bob mologna knows a thing or do about burmese jade.

Hey mediageek (and you other gun types): how come that guy in Seattle shot six people and didn't record a single kill? I can't find any coverage of what caliber rifle he had.

[dave_b]

David Rollins is but another of the sublime yet fantastic Davids that contribute to this site. In fact, I'd like to let it be known that I am fully in favor of an all-David Reason gathering including myself, David, Dave W, David Rollins, and any other wonderful Davids I may have forgotten. (And maybe thoreau. Though he's not a David, he can be granted honorary David status because his humongous brain attracts the ladies).

[Ruthless]

dave b is using an inside voice what with the lower case.
thoreau may have a humongous brain, but we know what dave b has that attracts the ladies. Duh.
(Thanksgiving secret: My real name is Dave.)
Happy, happy!

[thoreau]

Ruthless is a true gentleman, and had such a perfect sense of timing that he got post number 69 in this thread.

[Sourav]

Thoreau recognizes that the market finds a way for eveyone to be nice to one another.

[Jennifer]

I'll break the chain to say I hope y'all have a nice weekend, even those of you who aren't planning to actually celebrate. Even a misanthrope can sincerely wish you happiness.

[Eric the .5b]

That was very nice of you, Jennifer. The same to you.

(It's a strong chain.)

[Eryk Boston]

I'll continue the chain by saying Jennifer is one of the best reasons to read this blog.

[Bee]

I disagree with Jennifer's assertion - nobody with her passion for getting at something better for all of us can be a misanthrope.

Eryk Boston is perfectly correct, and is - along with Jennifer - part of the reason why H&R discussions are stimulating, entertaining, and friendly.

[bob mologna]

J said, "bob makes me think of bologna"

Hey buddy boy, I'll have you know that my surname is pronounced the same as bologna (or Maloney for that matter, and no that ain't my name).

What makes you think I don't go well with mustard anyway? Mmmnnn... crusty bread, dill pickles, mustard.

I'll pass this chain by saying that the only person I've ever known named Eryk was a complete psycho paranoid nutcase from MN. He left his motorhome in my driveway (it's still here) and the assortment of weapons in it is quite amazing. I wonder, what did he bother to take with him when he left for parts unknown?

If I hadn't had several lovely and ill-advised run-in's with his girlfriend this question would be strictly academic for me... alas.

[Jennifer]

You know something? Because of some recent unpleasantness which I don't care to discuss on the Internet I was feeling quite blue this evening, until I noticed some very nice comments people made about me on this and another thread.

Thank you. I really mean that.

[The Great Ape]

I know nothing of Jennifer's appearance, but her feistiness is hot. Like, monkey-hot. (that's a compliment)

[Ask and Receive]

Pictures of Jennifer:

http://www.panix.com/~jdw/h+r/all.html

[Syd]

The Great Ape is an impressive example of the power of evolution to produce tower-climbing monarchs drom the jungle.

[poco]

Syd was the gonzo-est member of Pink Floyd.

And going a bit out of order, I admit to a girl-crush on Jennifer, whom I find wonderfully ballsy. (I'm sure nothing will come of it, so no need for any horny guys here to start fantasizing.) I don't think there's any particular compliment anyone here could pay me. Never a typo, maybe.

an all-David Reason gathering

"These are the Daves I know, I know, these are the Daves I know."

[poco]

Oh yeah, and I admire Akira's chutzpah, and find his extremism no vice. And Stevo is very funny.

[SM]

poco is the greatest dude I won't remember having met at the bar next friday.

[SM]

Everyone - have a great thanksgiving.

[Jennifer]

Uh. . . .SM is my favorite fetish?

No, that's S and M. Oh, well, what's an ampersand between friends?

[Rick Barton]

Jennifer's sarcasms are among the most subtle and sophisticated employed here at H&R.

[Douglas Fletcher]

America, I love you!

[dead_elvis]

an all-David Reason gathering
"These are the Daves I know, I know, these are the Daves I know."

You can never have too many Daves

[Rick Barton]

Allow me as well to break the chain for one post to wish all my fellow Reasonoid commenters and Tim and all the rest of the editors a Happy Thanksgiving.

[zeiner]

Sorry for being a little late. Just got back from a lame bar.

To the entire Reason staff:
Thanks for the great mag and website. Everytime I get on the Internet this is the very first site I visit. Keep it up and have a safe & happy Thanksgiving.

To all the Hit & Runners:
Thanks for interesting and humerous posts.
Have a safe & happy Thanksgiving everybody. 🙂

[io1029]

This thread is not yet long enough.

[Eric the .5b]

io1029 is a wonderful person for pointing that out!

[Hakluyt]

Eric the .5b is not a serial killer.

[Jennifer]

Purely for contrariness, I'm going to use this thread to post an interesting story in today's New York Times, with the provocative title "Tax Cuts for the Wealthy Hurt the Wealthy." Very interesting, I thought.

Oh, and in the spirit of the season: the season's first snow is pummeling us even as I type. I am quite thankful I don't have to drive to work in it.

The story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/business/24scene.html

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer is better looking than Mr. Mackey.

[Native NYer]

Hakluyt is kinder and gentler than Gary Gunnels.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!

[Ironchef]

All your base belong to Native NYer.

Must get cooking. Happy Thanksgiving all!

[crimethink]

Ironchef spares no expense in cooking his delicious yams. And he doesn't use that cheap aluminum cookware that leaves everything tasting like the inside of a soda can.

[ChuckWalla]

contrary to the rumors, crimethink did not cause the break up of Jessica Simpsons marraige

[raymond]

ChuckWalla owns a Mac. Which is very very nice indeed.

[Solitudinarian]

raymond likes Mac users, which pleases me greatly.

[cdunlea]

Jessica Simpson found Chuck Walla so good in bed that he was the reason her marriage broke up

[Ken Shultz]

cdunlea hasn't broken up any marriages lately.

[thoreau]

I truly regret not meeting Ken Shultz in person before I left Southern California.

[Larry Edelstein]

Thoreau has been nice enough to respond to a post of mine in the past, and I'm always happy to read those of him. ("of his"?)

[Jemez Hobbit]

.. I'm glad that thoreau wrote that book about the Pond ..

.. Hobbit

[Phil]

Can't say as I found Jennifer's article particulary convincing in terms of its content supporting its headline, since the "harms" it posits the wealthy suffering from upper-bracket-targeted cuts are: 1) Everyone else gets to buy bigger houses, too and 2) The roads don't get fixed us much. Um, boo hoo?

[wthreye]

Phil critiques with the flair of Buckley.

Happy t-day and congrats for a well-run, informative(& entertaining) site.

[Johnny Clarke]

wthreye's post gave me something to post about while waiting for dinner to cook.

[Jennifer]

Phil--

There was a bit more to it than that, I think. The bit about affluence being measured in relative rather than absolute terms has been demonstrated before. On the other hand, I read the article at seven a.m. after pulling an all-nighter.

Are we really going to continue Crimethink's compliment-thing to the bitter end? Seems like a shame to waste the one open forum we've ever had.

[jtuf]

Johnny Clarke is more industrious than most of my past students.

Happy T-day y'all.

[Larry Edelstein]

jtuf continues the fine tradition, established this morning, of complimenting our predecessors.

[Jennifer]

Libertarians are apparently frighteningly good at conformity and going along with the herd.

[jtuf]

Jennifer is great at noticing irony.

Today's blog shows we can instill beneficial behaviors in a society without any force/government.

[Johnny Clarke]

I would like to thank Hit & Run for giving me the opportunity to conform and follow the herd. Oh, and jtuf's posting name is short and easy to remember.

[ChuckWalla]

It's kind of Johnny Clarke to continue the herd remark. Which reminded me that to err is human, to moo , bovine.

[ChuckWalla]

and a wonderful shout-out to Jennifer for pointing out that not every thread on H&R devolves into an open forum

[Jeff P.]

ChuckWalla did NOT schedule me to work on yet another Thanksgiving day, nor did he cause the technical snafus that will require my protracted presence throughout the long weekend.

[Jennifer]

Jeff P. is NOT to be blamed for the fact that his poor sexy redhaired girlfriend has nothing better to do on Thanksgiving Day than snipe at conformist libertarians on the Internet.

This is the one day a year I hate the fact that my boyfriend works in broadcasting. Oh, well, could be worse--a hundred years ago I probably would have wound up with a whaling captain or something.

By the way, honey, I turned the turkey in the marinade.

[Johhny Clarke]

I am under the impression that Jennifer does a smashing job of marinating a turkey.

I would also like to point out that while the rest of you are non-conforming, herd-free, individualistic libertarians...I'm not. And stuff.

[Jennifer]

I am under the impression that Jennifer does a smashing job of marinating a turkey.

Whether meant as a single or double entendre, that statement is absolutely true.

[Phil]

There was a bit more to it than that, I think. The bit about affluence being measured in relative rather than absolute terms has been demonstrated before.

Oh, that's definitely true -- I just think that, if I were wealthy, I wouldn't be too bothered by the fact that a targeted tax cut for my bracket allowed all my rich friends to buy bigger houses at the same time I did. At least, that's a strange definition of "hurt" for the purposes of the author.

I feel your boyfriend's pain today, btw. I used to work in radio -- sports talk, no less -- and I spent many a Thanksgiving and Xmas Eve sitting at a console by myself, re-running "best ofs" and Indians highlights.

[Jennifer]

Phil--

First of all, let me repeat that I read the article this morning after having been awake all night, and I haven't re-read it since. But I thought, in my sleep-fuzzed way, that he DID make some good points. Rich and poor people drive the same roads, for instance, and a rich guy who hurts his Porsche on a pothole will have to shell out considerably more money than some guy driving a Neon. And wasn't there something about thfact that we're losing out technological and research edge, or am I confusing that with another article I read last night?

I think the point about the bigger houses is that instead of people saying "I just bought a house with an extra 1,000 square feet, so I feel spacious and wealthy!" we instead just define an "average" house as one with an extra thousand square feet.

It reminds me of an odd statistic I read: the average housewife in 1950 spent as many hours per week on housework as did a wife in 1900, or something like that. But how can this be, since the 1950 housewife had all sorts of useful household appliances which were unheard-of 50 years before? Because when the new cleaning tools came out, women did not use them to effortlessly achieve what was considered "clean" in 1900; instead, they defined "cleanliness" upward and insisted on a level impossible to achieve in 1900. It's almost Sisyphean--you think you've become "successful," whatever the hell that means, and then they go and move the goalposts again.

Whoops--buzzer went off. Time to take the chocolate-chip pumpkin bread out of the oven.

[Jennifer]

Another example, Phil: I remember, when I took a hideously boring Home Ec class in eighth grade (not by choice) the teacher gave us a very humiliating lecture on personal hygiene. (Did you know that if you go too long without taking a bath you'll start to smell gamy? No, really!)

She said that for acceptable dress, you should NOT wear the same outfit more than once every two weeks. Which means, to meet her standards of acceptable school dress, you must own a minimum of twenty different school outfits--ten for cool weather and ten for warm.

Now a hundred years ago, there was NOTHING wrong with wearing the same outfit every single day, with a "good" outfit for church or special occasions. That one outfit you wore each day was rather expensive, of course, and a poor person would have difficulty affording it.

Now, though, clothing can be had dirt cheap. Even the poorest Americans can easily afford to buy that one outfit--but it is no longer acceptable to wear the same clothes all the time, so now instead of buying one outfit and using the rest of his money to get ahead, the poor person has to buy TWENTY outfits to meet the same minimum-acceptable standard that one outfit used to meet.

Am I making sense here? Are you getting the point I'm trying to make?

[Jennifer]

This may be a triple post (at least Jeff should be home soon) but I figured out the succinct summation of my last rambling post: clothing, in real terms, is far cheaper than it was a hundred years ago, yet standards popped up so that maintaining a proper, respectable public appearance is just as expensive now as it was a century ago.

And it seems the same holds true for everything else.

[thanks]

I, for one, liked Jennifer's article and have found her comments since lucid and convincing. But then again, I probably stopped being a true blue libertarian a few years ago.

[Solitudinarian]

Thanks to thanks for his refreshing honesty.

[Jennifer]

Thanks, thanks!

From the story:

For example, deficits have led to cuts in federal financing for basic scientific research, even as the United States' share of global patents granted continues to decline. Such cuts threaten the very basis of our long-term economic prosperity. As Senator Pete Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, said: "We thought we'd keep the high-end jobs, and others would take the low-end jobs. We're now on track to a second-rate economy and a second-rate country."

[Jim Walsh]

Jennifer is a major babe (if she were president, she'd be Babe-raham Lincoln), and I know she'll appreciate the following:

The Real Story of the First Thanksgiving
By Benjamin Franklin (1785)

There is a tradition that in the planting of New England, the first settlers met with many difficulties and hardships, as is generally the case when a civilized people attempt to establish themselves in a wilderness country. Being so piously disposed, they sought relief from heaven by laying their wants and distresses before the Lord in frequent set days of fasting and prayer. Constant meditation and discourse on these subjects kept their minds gloomy and discontented, and like the children of Israel there were many disposed to return to the Egypt which persecution had induced them to abandon.

At length, when it was proposed in the Assembly to proclaim another fast, a farmer of plain sense rose and remarked that the inconveniences they suffered, and concerning which they had so often wearied heaven with their complaints, were not so great as they might have expected, and were diminishing every day as the colony strengthened; that the earth began to reward their labour and furnish liberally for their subsistence; that their seas and rivers were full of fish, the air sweet, the climate healthy, and above all, they were in the full enjoyment of liberty, civil and religious.

He therefore thought that reflecting and conversing on these subjects would be more comfortable and lead more to make them contented with their situation; and that it would be more becoming the gratitude they owed to the divine being, if instead of a fast they should proclaim a thanksgiving. His advice was taken, and from that day to this, they have in every year observed circumstances of public felicity sufficient to furnish employment for a Thanksgiving Day, which is therefore constantly ordered and religiously observed.

[Jennifer]

Thank, Jim. I've always had a soft spot for Benjamin Franklin--if it were possible to have crushes on elderly guys who've been dead for two centuries, I would DEFINITELY have one on him. Perhaps I'll lose my feminist credentials for this, but I have to like a guy who talked about how he enjoyed being the ambassador to France because the ladies there didn't wear anything under their dresses. How did he put it--"the gates to paradise are always open?" Hee hee hee.

And he had a wicked wit when needed. His anti-slavery tract was wonderful.

Goddamn, these turkey drumsticks are taking longer than I thought to roast. I have had nothing to eat all day except a slice of pumpkin bread, and I think I'm going to starve to death.

[eric mattingly]

Jim Walsh is probably a lot cooler than the washed-up sometime leftover Eagle bandmember that shares his last name.

[eric mattingly]

And Jennifer makes profanity into the highest form of eloquence.

[Jennifer]

Eric is doing a fine job of ruining my chances to break this goddamned chain.

[Eddy]

I've never been fond of chains, unless served with whips of course. Then again, chains do stay crunchy in milk.

[thoreau]

Mmm, chocolate chip pumpkin bread...

Just got back from a very nice dinner with the extended family of in-laws and their in-laws and their in-laws. Got a lot of compliments for my eggnog ice cream with crumbled candy canes.

I like the way Eddy spells his name.

[crimethink]

thoreau makes the strongest egg nogg this side of the Potomac.

I'm tempted to mock Jennifer's hypocrisy in choosing such a highly conformist dinner tonight, but given the positive spirit of the thread thus far, I won't... 😉

True to my name, for me and mine I prepared Reuben roll-ups (sauerkraut rolled inside a wrap of corned beef and swiss cheese). Vive le anomie!

[le crime pensent]

Au contraire, Vive l'anomie!

[Jennifer]

Crimethink, I only do the holiday stuff because Jeff likes it. Hell, between the time I left my parents' home and the time I moved in with him, I never even owned a Christmas tree. But if turkey drumsticks and pumpkin bread make him happy, then what the hell.

Besides, I did the drumsticks in a very non-traditional overspiced Moroccan marinade recipe.

[Jennifer]

Also, to further cement my nontraditional bona fides: I just finished eating, and I am not full, I don't need to take a nap, I'm not in need of Rolaids. . . no gastric distress whatsoever.

[Herrick and His Balls]

I think I'm ready to make an announcement to you all: I am gay. Wow, that felt relieving!

[Jennifer]

Just you, or you and your balls?

[Petunia Picklehead]

I salute those who announce they are gay while using their real name--"Herrick and His Balls", take a bow!

/are we still playing? I just came in . . .

[thoreau]

Jennifer, chocolate chip pumpkin bread makes EVERYBODY happy!

Petunia Picklehead's name makes me laugh.

[Captain Awesome]

thoreau is helping us get closer to 400 posts.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau, I say this in all sincerity: next time I go down there or you guys come up here, I'll make you a loaf. Do you like your chips milk chocolate, or semi-sweet?

[Jennifer]

Do you like your chips milk chocolate, or semi-sweet?

I love clean, wholesome comments that sound just a little bit dirty.

[Eryk Boston]

Mint chocolate chips, thank you.

BTW, Jennifer's extensive posts were a good example of her stated interest in sadomasocism. 😀

[Jennifer]

Making pumpkin bread is sadomasochistic? Damn, talk about defining deviancy down!

[Eryk Boston]

I was referring to the act of reading the long posts as being masochistic and your posting them as being sadistic. Mind you, I think that's a bad thing.

[Eryk Boston]

correction: I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Jennifer]

I was referring to the act of reading the long posts as being masochistic and your posting them as being sadistic. Mind you, I think that's a bad thing.

I'm guessing you meant to say "I don't think that's a bad thing."

Sigh. Fine. My picture's already been posted higher in this thread--if it makes you all happy, I'll tell you I was wearing a frothy black lace concoction when I made those multiple posts.

(I'm lying, of course, but thanks to the anonymity of the Internet you guys have no way of knowing this. And it's very meta of me to make this parenthetical.)

[Jennifer]

I wonder how many professional dominatrices got their start sharing personal anecdotes about their junior-high-school Home Ec classes as they relate to current sociopolitical topics?

[Eryk Boston]

Yes, I meant I don't. Also, I was thinking more of scarlet leather than black lace but honestly, I be happy with the mint chocolate chips.

OK, I think the pain meds have kicked in. (fractured nt poor foot sparring)

[Herrick and His Balls]

Where do you all go to find free passwords to porn sites? The site I usually check out for them has been offering really shitty sites as of late.

[zeiner]

Cool, the History Channel is running their documentary on all the American Pres, I think that I missed most of it though.

[jw]

I thought the word was spelled "deviantcy"?

A question: How come I got "page unavailable" when I tried to go to the link posted by Ask You Shall Receive?

BTW, I thought about all of you while I was enjoying my non-traditional, red oak-flame-broiled, USDA Choice, ribeye steak tonight. Beats hell out of turkey any time!

Oh yeah: Something nice about Jennifer: Something nice, something nice, something nice. Now if I click my heels, will I still be in Texas?

Happy Hollidays to all!

[jw]

I'm just not fast enough (sigh).

Okay: Something nice about Zeiner: something nice, something nice, something nice.

[Jennifer]

Looks like the link is fucked, JW. But the address works if you cut and paste it into the address bar.

Herrick, don't go around asking questions like that. Do you really want people saying things like "That guy's so dumb he can't even find PORN on the INTERNET?"

(I have some actual work I should be doing. Why am I still posting here?)

[zeiner]

Jennifer,

You are still posting because because the thread is not long enough.

[Jack]

jw has a real e-mail addy in his signature.

[jw]

Jennifer, you look just as Irish as Irish can be. You look like pictures I've seen of my mother's grandmother as a young woman. (She was a doll!)
Unfortunately I did not inherit the gift o'the Blarney from her, so with my stumble tongue and trip over lips,... that's about as nice (grandiloquent?) as I get.

[jw]

"jw has a real e-mail ...."

I also have a great spam filters.

[Jennifer]

Funny thing is, JW, I'm only about one-eighth Irish. Or is it one-sixteenth? I don't recall; my dad was your basic Euromongrel. My mother, a purebred Pole, always swore that I got my red hair from some (equally Polish) aunt of hers. Which surprised me, since I never associated red hair with Poles.

[jw]

Sure, it's real. But is it really his?

[jw]

Let's see: English, Irish (as well as Scotts Irish,...same thing really), Scottish, Pennsylvania Dutch (German), French (Normandy), and Greek (perhaps, if my old man is to be believed) Yup, guess I'm just your basic sixth-generation American mongrel.

[Jennifer]

Polish, German (via the Pennsylvania Dutch, which is to say Amish) and a wee bit o' the Irish. If you believe ethnic stereotypes, that makes me a stupid drunk who hates technology. But in reality I'm quite intelligent, I don't like booze and I adore my laptop computer.

By the way, you ARE aware that the red-haired woman in the very first photo is NOT me, right?

[Jennifer]

Still not getting a damned thing done. But I suspect this will be another all-nighter for me, so that's okay.

[Eryk Boston]

I'm Irish, Scot, German and Norweigian and therefor a drunk Nazi who rapes and pilliages while wearing a skirt.

[Jennifer]

Eryk, in addition to your skirt shouldn't you also be wearing a hat with horns on it?

[jw]

"aware that the red headed woman in the first photo"

They are captioned on the page I looked at.

Regarding red-headed Poles: I remember seeing a PBS special about how far the Vikings penetrated into Europe and Asia. Perhaps that's how Poles could get red hair.

I don't think all Pennsylvania Dutch(Deutsch) were Amish, though I'm not sure. I do know that they were not anti-technology. Some of the finest craftsmen and technicians were Pennsylvania dutch, or of German heritage. Take the so-called Kentucky Rifle...first orriginated in America by German gunsmiths. Those people were skilled clockmakers as well. I guess it just goes to show that stereotypes are not very reliable.

BTW, that was the first time this newbie ever cut and pasted anything. Thanks for the experience. 🙂

[Jennifer]

What did you cut and paste?

[jw]

"What did you cut and paste?"

I cut and pasted the link into the address bar of my browser as per your suggestion. Never tried that before.

[Jennifer]

So technically, this means that tomorrow I can tell my boyfriend "I took a man's virginity last night while you were asleep," and he can't get upset over it.

On the other hand, he might think I was talking about one of our extremely icky neighbors. So I won't say anything.

[jw]

Now I want a cigarette.

[Hakluyt]

JW,

...Vikings penetrated into Europe and Asia.

Note that the kingdom of the Kievan Rus' was founded by Vikings. Meaning that the pre-Mongol primary Russian kingdom was founded by a bunch of Vikings.

Furthermore, Poland was a kingdom of much importance throughout much of the middle ages and into the Renaissance and the Reformation (indeed, it was a very tolerant place to during the latter). So marraige with persons outside its borders was common. Furthermore, it was also at one time a more ethnically diverse population as well. The fact that over 90% of Poles today are of the same ethnic and religious background is an anomaly in Polish history. As an independent Poland was never Polish and Catholic dominated until the 20th century.

Norman Davies's Heart of Europe is the standard layman's text on Poland's history.

[Jennifer]

I was just thinking the same thing--it's been just over two months since I quit smoking, and I was doing fine (albeit regulating an unusual amount of interstate commerce). But right now I don't HAVE any commerce, I'm not likely to get any for a couple of weeks, and if I smoke one of my boyfriend's cigarettes--nasty menthol nightmares though they be--I run the risk of getting hooked again.

Those photos were taken the night before I quit smoking, a.k.a. The Last Time I Was Happy.

Damn.

[raymond]

What I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving

I'm thankful I don't live in a country the government of which regularly violates the fundamental rights of Life, Liberty, and Property.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country whose government executes defenceless people.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country where rape is an accepted method of control in prisons.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country which hounds and torments learning-disabled kids like Matthew Limon.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country with an ever-rising prison population of black drug-users.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country with a PATRIOT Act.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country that uses torture and secret prisons and "'extraordinary' rendition".

I'm thankful I don't live in a country for which "collateral damage" has become an everyday occurrence.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country which can even be accused of using white phosphorus against anybody, including civilians.

I'm thankful I don't live in the country which runs Abu Ghraib.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country run by a government marked by incompetence, hypocrisy, and downright stupidity.

I'm thankful I don't live in a country whose president is living proof that "Intelligent Design" is a load of hogwash.

[Hakluyt]

This time of year (winter) always reminds me of this statement:

The men lay in slit trenches and these were half-filled with water. There comes a time when the mind will react no more to cold and danger. Those who had been exposed up there for two days and nights slept waist deep in water. I utter weariness they lost all sense of time and place and even perhaps sense of hope. Only the sense of pain remained, of constantly reiterated pain that invaded sleep and waited for the end of sleep to increase. For these soldiers the risk of war had passed out of consciousness and was replaced by the misery and discomfort of war, which in the end is worse than anything. - Alan Moorehead, Eclipse

The passage concerns the horrifying conditions associated with fighting in winter along the spine of Italy in WWII. Winter and warfare have always been frightning combinations there.

[jw]

Hakluyt,

Yeah, that doesn't surprize me. I have an aquaintance who is very proud of his Viking heritage. Did you know that they penetrated far enough to have threatened Constantinopal ( or Byzantium)? Or so I have heard.

Okay: Hakluyt is a much finer scholar than I ever dreampt of becoming. (see that you DO something with it.)

[Jennifer]

Now, now, Raymond. Don't be such a show-off.

[jw]

Jennifer,

I was just kidding about the cigarette. Actually I haven't wanted one in years. In fact, it nearly makes me ill to be in the same room as someone smoking tobacco. You just hang in there,...it gets easier. The more you smoke, the more you will want to smoke; the less you smoke, the less you will want to smoke. You quit on your birthday, if memory serves. That's a nice gift to yourself. If you can hold out 'til your next birthday, you'll have it beat for good.

Raymond,
So where you do YOU live,...in Utopia?

[jw]

That should have been : So where do YOU live,...in Utopia?

[Jennifer]

If you can hold out 'til your next birthday, you'll have it beat for good.

Nope. I'd actually managed to quit for something like three or four years--I was a non-smoker all throughout graduate school. But I picked up the habit again, partially because I was irritated by the holier-than-thou sanctimoniousness of the non-smokers, but also because I just plain like to smoke.

The Iranian graphic novelist Marjane Satrapi, whom I greatly enjoy, has been doing guest op-ed cartoons at the New York Times, and she did one a few days ago about "Why I Don't Want To Quit." That's the first and only time I've regretted that the NYTimes op-eds are now subscription only.

[Eric the .5b]

Jennifer brings up thoughtful points:

Libertarians are apparently frighteningly good at conformity and going along with the herd.

I see it as the joy of non-coercive spontaneous order. No law necessary, no punishment threatened, just "hey, let's do this" and people cooperating.

But then, "conformity" is one of those things that's morally neutral, despite what people who would want to paint it as good or bad would like. We're all typing in English here and conforming to certain standards of grammar and spelling, after all, because it makes for easier communication. People otherwise free to do what they want will conform in ways that they find useful or enjoyable. It's what we conform to, and why, that makes conformity or nonconformity good, bad, or just tasty Moroccan-spiced drumsticks.

[Jennifer]

Eric, I wasn't trying to make a great statement with my little snarky comment there. On the other hand, I AM glad the thread's veered in another direction, because it's pretty damned boring to read just a long list of complimentary statements. "Thoreau is a nice guy. So is Ken Schulz. Ditto Eric. Hooray for Phil."

[Jennifer]

Nope. I'd actually managed to quit for something like three or four years--I was a non-smoker all throughout graduate school.

I just realized this statement could be construed to mean I was an grad school for four years. No--I was a non-smoker in grad school, and for awhile after that as well.

[jw]

Hell, no smoker truly WANTS to quit, Jennifer. I know that I didn't. I smoked from the time I was fifteen,...straights, filters, pipe, and occasionally cigars. I even rolled my own for about twenty years (pipe tobacco, that is.) But I got to where my throat hurt so bad everytime I smoked anything, that I figured I had better quit. Wasn't enjoying it any longer anyway.

But you're right about the moralistic, self-righteous, anti-smoking nazis. They're almost enough to make me go back. But then I think to myself,...if I did, they would still be influencing my behavior. Soooo,...I just try to more or less ignore the assholes, much as I try to ignore most of the others who advocate things I disagree with. (Not always successfully)

[Jennifer]

JW, I quit ONLY for financial reasons, because cig taxes where I live are so damned high. If I lived in a lower-tax state I'd smoke again.

And I'm not too worried about the health angle. Considering how long I smoked before the first time I quit, for four years, my lungs had a chance to pretty much repair any damage that was done. (I looked this up in a med book; I'm not making this up.) So in terms of lung damage, I've only been a smoker for about four years before quitting last September. Not long enough to get cancer.

[Jennifer]

I REALLY do need to get some work done now. I'm cutting off my Internet connection for the rest of the evening. Good-night, everybody, and I'll see y'all tomorrow, I suppose.

[jw]

Jennifer,
I have always heard that it is supposed to be FIVE years and any damage will have been repaired. However, a few years ago I heard (on television) that one is still significantly at risk even after fifteen years. Also, that one is forever in danger of developing emphysema later in life. How accurate any of that is,...your guess is as good as mine.
One thing I have read about in a number of sources is that the carbon monoxide in smoke (not just tobacco smoke, either) causes the blood vessels to constrict impeding circulation. It also makes placque build up on their walls, further impeding circulation. Atherosclerosis and heart disease is a far bigger danger of smoking than lung cancer, as far as I can see. Especially with a sedentary lifestyle. Actually, lung cancer is a relatively rare form of cancer.

I stopped smoking before the tobacco wars and I am almost ashamed to say that I live in the state whose attorney general started all the lawsuits. Lord what a scandalous ripoff that was. So I stopped before all the huge price increases and tax increases. But I think if I went back to smoking, I would grow my own before I'd make some smug, smiling tort lawyer and his legal firm any richer than he has already become. I don't remember the lawyer's name, but John Stossel did a short interview with him a few years ago. My blood boils just to think of that sonofabitch. (the lawyer, I mean)

[jw]

I suppose that I shall have to stop for tonight as well. I don't know if it is the server or too much internet traffic or what,...but my posts are taking longer and longer to go through. Good night to all of you.

[raymond]

So where do YOU live,...in Utopia?

If by "Utopia" you mean "nowhere", no. I live somewhere.

If you mean "paradise", why yes. I live in Paradise.

(Though I do wish the other inhabitants of Paradise had had the forethought to have their snow tires put on before last night's big snow-dump.)

[SR]

Are we still saying nice things about the previous poster? If so, then I'd say that raymond's website has the most innovative use of an animated Nepalese flag I've ever seen.

[Hakluyt]

SR,

We seem to have fallen away from crimethink's appointed path.

[Ken Shultz]

Though I do wish the other inhabitants of Paradise had had the forethought to have their snow tires put on before last night's big snow-dump.

Is the President of Canada a Democrat or a Republican?

[Twba]

Is the President of Canada a Democrat or a Republican?

Is the Prime Minister of America an idiot or a moron?

[saw-whet]

Ken Schultz is quite savvy. Good, that's out of the way.

Ken, I think Raymond may be posting from Switzerland, Helvatia.

Raymond - Remove the craggy peaks and add a bunch more snow and your photos would approximate my beloved Tug Hill region of Central New York.

[saw-whet]

TWBA is laugh out loud funny.

[Viking Moose]

Saw whet is the bestest person from central ny who is online. and he doesn't suffer from insufferable nationalism.

🙂

anyhow:

it's AKIRA's birthday! (25 Nov)

let's all wish this fine gentleman a good one!

[Hakluyt]

Viking Moose doesn't smell like a moose (generally).

[saw-whet]

Akira is only half as superannuated as I am. Which is better than good, (as W would say in the presence of Tony Blair) it's Grrreat! Happy Birthday, dude.

[saw-whet]

Man, only 195 comments. The only way we're going to hit 400 is to bring every poster on board. I havn't seen R C Dean or Shannon Love yet.

Let's see, a topic, a topic...Oh! here we go. Sure is a lot of carbon dioxide out there. Yep lots of CO2. We outa do something about it before the earth warms up and things go bad as a result. Hey, maybe we should sign the Kyoto Agreement.

There, that outa do it.

[Rick Barton]

saw-whet, you f***ing idiot! The evidence clearly indicates that the warming has been due to solar activity. Oops. Just read your whole post. You were just kidding, huh? sew-whet is a very creative person.

[Hakluyt]

Rick Barton might do well in Casablanca.

[Rick Barton]

Here's looking at you Hakluyt. (read in Bogey accent)

[Rick Barton]

I assume that was the way that you meant "Casablanca".

[Jennifer]

a few years ago I heard (on television) that one is still significantly at risk even after fifteen years. Also, that one is forever in danger of developing emphysema later in life.

I suspect this informational tidbit is on par with "If you take one hit off of a joint you'll instantly becme addicted and spend the rest of your life blowing guys in alleyways for five-dollar bills."

[Ken Shultz]

Ken, I think Raymond may be posting from Switzerland, Helvatia.

So is the President of Swaziland a Democrat or a Republican?

[saw-whet]

King MSWATI III. You know, if you're going to be king of something, why Swaziland?

[Hakluyt]

Rick Barton,

Basically. 🙂

Jennifer,

Its a lot more complex than either of you realize.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and just so nobody doubts my libertarian bonafides: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with blowing guys in alleyways for five-dollar bills, if that's what you really want to do; I am merely pointing out that it will take far more than a puff of interstate commerce to get you to that point.

[saw-whet]

"saw-whet is a very creative person."

I'm not a person. I'm an owl.

[Jennifer]

Speaking of blowing guys in alleyways: can somebody explain to me why hookers charge less for a blowjob than for actual sex? I'd think it would be the opposite: if for some reason I absolutely HAD to do a guy I didn't want to, I'd rather "lie back and think of England" than actually. . . . well, you know.

[Twba]

Considering the hookers I've seen up close, I wouldn't stick anything as important as my tool in their mouths, even if they paid me.

[eric mattingly]

Hmmm. I like the idea of trying to get to four hundred too. There are a ton of conversations already on the queue. Let me suggest another-- one that's completely irrelevant. What Science Fiction novels are you guys most thankful for? See, it is even themed with the holiday. I'm prepared to be ignored, of course-- but at least no one can say I didn't try.

Mine:
Gene Wolfe "The Book of the New Sun"
Theodore Sturgeon (Short Stories)
Paul O. Williams (Pelbar Stories)
Edgar Pangborn "Davy"

I hope everyone had a happy thanksgiving and aren't too hungover.

[Ken Shultz]

Pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessin' it has something to do with the time value of money.

...It's what restaurateurs refer to as turnover. You know, it takes less time to make some dishes rather than others. You get to serve more customers that way.

Considering that, they might be willing to charge less if they think they can make it up in volume.

[zeiner]

Jennifer,
I thought that most women have traditional sex with guys that they really like, and they give oral sex to guys that just want to get off on the first date. Well, it used to be this way when I was in high school.

[saw-whet]

Does it have to be science fiction? I guessing a lot of people here could go on about economics also. The book am currently reading (OK, handbook that I am studying) is Damselflies of the Northeast.

[Jennifer]

I thought that most women have traditional sex with guys that they really like, and they give oral sex to guys that just want to get off on the first date.

If this is true, then I actually qualify as a prude by modern standards.

Damn.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and I think Ken's theory is probably right.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and if Eric the Halfabee is still reading: THIS is why conformity should be eschewed. Be honest: a discussion of hooker economics is a LOT more interesting than what we had before, and we never would have got here had we limited ourselves to just "Twba is nice. So is JW. So is Ken. So are the various Erics."

[raymond]

Here's an interesting article I thought I'd share.

I'm quite angry with The Spectator right now because of a really stupid article they published about capital punishment (in the same edition). But the linked one by Boris isn't bad.

Oh. And something about Jennifer. Jennifer's a hoochie mama.

(I don't know what that means, or if she is in fact a hoochie mama. I just felt the need to use the expression.)

[saw-whet]

Jennifer is nice. So is Jenny. So is Jen. So are the various hookers in the alleyway.

[Jennifer]

I think a hoochie mama is someone who dresses like a slut in public. I actually keep myself well-covered. Even in the summertime.

[Jennifer]

Cut from the Urban Dictionary dot com:

1. A female who dresses ghetto ho fabulous. Lots of gold, lots of weave-typically Pattie LaBelle style with red, purple, gold, or orange streaks, and long nails with lots of airbrush glitter, and color. This female's goal in life is to use her female attriibutes to obtain a male with lots of money or any money to spend on her. Weaves, rent, & diapers for her baby from another daddy included. 2. A ghetto version of a "Gold Digger".

Dammit, Raymond, you take back what you said! Don't make me go PATRIOT Act on yo' ass, boy!

[raymond]

I found a great image, but the damn server refused to accept my post. I HATE when it does that!

[raymond]

Here's the image. Sort of how I've always imagined Jennifer.

[Jennifer]

All right, Raymond, that's it. I think we're going to have to pull off a pre-emptive violation of traditional Swiss neutrality.

Your multi-bladed knives won't save you now.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

...traditional Swiss neutrality.

No such thing.

[Twba]

Sobbing for Yasser Arafat is going too far, at least at the Beeb. In related news, Yasser Arafat is in stable condition after dying in a French hospital.

[Hakluyt]

Because having intercourse brings with it more risk (at least its perceived that way) and generally speaking there is more value put upon intercourse than fellatio (at least in our society).

[Hakluyt]

We've already gotten to four hundred on other threads. Five hundred is the magic number.

[Hakluyt]

So, did all of you who are in the U.S. go on a shopping frenzy today?

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

Was there ever an official cause of death?

[Eddy]

generally speaking there is more value put upon intercourse than fellatio

That just sucks!

[Hakluyt]

Pat Morita - RIP: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10202732/

[Twba]

According to Joycelyn Elders, solo acts of love are underappreciated.

[Hakluyt]

Eddy,

Well, that is just the way society seems to measure it (at least today). Which is why "going all the way" is the focus of so much locker room talk.

[tomWright]

Ya know, readng this thread is way more interesting bottom up.

Not unlike sex sometimes, actually.

🙂

[Hakluyt]

More European Youth Smokin' The Ganja:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1792611,00.html

[Twba]

George Best - RIP. That's sad but not unexpected news for football fans.

"I Spent My Money On Boose, Birds and Fast Cars, the Rest I Just Squandered." - George Best

[Twba]

Hakluyt,

I expected you to know more about the situation concerning Arafat's medical records. Is there French law that prevents the release of cause of death?

[Hakluyt]

E.U. reforms sugar subsidy: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1791519,00.html

The subsidy still exists but it has been reduced. Maybe sugar prices will finally drop to reasonable levels in France.

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

His wife refused an autopsy. Yes, medical privacy laws are very robust in France. I hadn't followed the story since her refusal to allow an autopsy. All I ever heard at the time was that he had liver problems - which could be caused by all manner of agents.

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

Of course, as I recall, even the man's place of birth is controverted, so expecting a resolution re: what killed him is probably asking too much.

[MP]

If this is true, then I actually qualify as a prude by modern standards.

My wife (who works in a High School) told me that nowadays, the "in" thing is for kids to try to get away with having sex in the hallway in school without getting caught. That's the new badge of honor.

She also said she dealt with a student who was busted twice for having sex in the school elevator in eigth grade.

I guess I'm a major-league prude compared to kids today. Can anyone sell me a chastity belt for my daughter to be?

[MP]

So, did all of you who are in the U.S. go on a shopping frenzy today?

Speaking of following the herd...

[Twba]

...even the man's place of birth is controverted...

I've heard that said about other people.

[Jennifer]

MP--

The high school where I used to teach briefly made the national news when the school had to spend a damned fortune putting outside locks on all the teacher's bathroom doors after some girl lost her virginity in there during school hours. Which I think is appallingly sad. I mean, I don't buy the "wait until marriage" bit, and I think it's unrealistic to expect kids to spend several years physically craving sex but ignoring it. . . . but Christ! Even the back seat of a car is more romantic that a white-tiled bathroom in a fluorescent glare.

And I strongly suspect that the girl in question didn't even have sex in the bathroom because she really, truly desired it, but because she figured it would be "cool" and rebellious. I dunno--I think it's like the sexual equivalent of the person who's a heavy drinker UNTIL her 21st birthday--and then, drinking isn't cool anymore.

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

Well, the issue is the claim that he was born in Jerusalem. That's what it says on his death certificate and that caused a big ruckus when he died.

[Hakluyt]

Well, we are past the half-way mark.

[Twba]

I dunno--I think it's like the sexual equivalent of the person who's a heavy drinker UNTIL her 21st birthday--and then, drinking isn't cool anymore.

How do you get her to go back to the family farm after she's seen Karl Hungus?

[Twba]

Hakluyt,

Without googling or breaking a sweat, I only recall reading that Arafat was birthed in either Kuwait or Egypt.

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

Yeah, he definately wasn't born in Jerusalem. Of course, to the Israelis the fact that his death certificate states (on an official French document) that he was born there is something of a threat I guess.

[saw-whet]

I don't think changing this thread to an Isreal/Palistine debate will get us to 500 but here goes.

He was born in Egypt. Just take my word for it. And didn't he become a millionaire working on the Asswan Dam or some such? I heard he was a civil engineer.

You know that area of the world has given quite a few people the heebie jeebies for years, centuries, well OK, millenia. Why? There's got to be a very simple reason.

Hmmmm, I'm not turning this into an Isreal/Palistine argument am I. Well, did you know that heebie jeebie was from Barney Google, the comic strip? Google, huh? Get it, get it?

[Jennifer]

You know that area of the world has given quite a few people the heebie jeebies for years, centuries, well OK, millenia. Why? There's got to be a very simple reason.

My guess is because that's where civilization (at least for non-Chinese) more or less got its start, which means the major organized religions all view that area as their holy place, which means you can't expect people to act rationally about it. I mean, think about it, especially in the days before oil was discovered there--if you ignore the whole religious/sentimental value of the area, that land's pretty damned close to worthless. And THAT is what inspired so many fights? Not arable land or water supplies or valuable harbors. . . just a bunch of fucking desert and scrubland. Take away the religious and historical crap and you could probably buy all the real estate in Israel for the change behind your sofa cushions. And you'd be overcharged, too.

[Captain Awesome]

If 500 is going to happen, better start with some good old fashion creationism vs. evolution. And the part of the discussion about the holyland is as good a segway as any.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

I don't think changing this thread to an Isreal/Palistine debate will get us to 500 but here goes.

You gotta nibble away at it.

[Hakluyt]

Capatain Awesome,

You mean segue I think. A Segway is a contraption your ride around on. Many apologies for the pedantry.

[saw-whet]

Darwinian evolution is a belief system.

*Ducks for cover*

[Twba]

The bickering between the Issies and the Pallies is just as ridiculous as Star Trek episode 70.

[saw-whet]

'Ducks for cover' sounds wierd. It should be ducks for wetland restoration.

[Twba]

Darwinian evolution is a belief system.

I am a proud member of the Cult of Darwin.

[saw-whet]

Kind of like those politically savvy "Vampires for Gore."

[raymond]

All science is a belief system.

[Twba]

Vampires for Gore were outnumbered by the Dicks for Bush.

[Twba]

She also said she dealt with a student who was busted twice for having sex in the school elevator in eigth grade.

That's not right. My school didn't have an elevator. Hell, it didn't have airconditioning. Kids these days have it so easy.

[Slainte']

"No[t] arable land or water supplies or valuable harbors. . . just a bunch of fucking desert and scrubland."

I've never been there, but that's my general impression of that part of the world -- but I don't understand how people could have lived there for millenia. I figure that there's got to be some usable land for growing crops and supporting livestock. Maybe its seasonal, like the flooding of the Nile? I wonder.

Re: Darwinism -- it's NOT based on belief, it's based on trust. Whole 'nother thing.

[thoreau]

Slainte'-

My understanding is that most of it is indeed unlivable, which is precisely why they fight so hard over the areas with water and usable land.

My guess is that if we looked carefully at the areas in contention between the Israelis and Palestinians, we'd find that people fight much harder for areas with access to water. Well, that and dry but defensible areas in proximity to wetter areas.

[Jennifer]

I don't understand how people could have lived there for millenia. I figure that there's got to be some usable land for growing crops and supporting livestock

Oh, sure, there's SOME usable land, just not enough to make others envious enough to start a war over it. My point--which I may not have properly made earlier--is that the reason the land has been fought over for millenia is because of religious or "sentimental" value, not because the land had any inherent qualities which would have brought wealth to a pre-technological people.

[Jennifer]

I didn't see Thoreau's post before I made my last one, but I don't think we contradicted each other.

[Jennifer]

By the way, Thoreau--many analysts say that water wars are this century's next big thing. And yes, Israel and its neighbors are indeed getting involved in some water-related skirmishes. But this is all relatively recent; I still say it's the religious angle that's responsible for the lion's share of war in that region. (Heck, if not for the religious angle many of those people would probably just leave for greener pastures anyway.)

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

I go back and forth on the question of why people fight. It's clear that you can talk young men into fighting for just about anything. Hell, we could probably get some people to die in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if we tried hard enough.

But somebody has to pay for their weaponry, and that usually means older people have to get involved. Older people aren't guaranteed to be any smarter than younger people, but writing a check can be a sobering experience. At some point, you'd think somebody would ask "So, will I get any oil, water, minerals, cash, or other cool stuff after we've won the war? Or will we at least control a large civilian population, which I can then wield power over via the military leaders that I financed?" And if thet answer is no, he might just take his checkbook and go elsewhere.

The counter-arguments that I've run into, and considered carefully, usually fall into two categories:

1) You can find some wealthy old dudes who will write checks for crazy wars. Even if 99% of all old rich dudes would think twice before funding a war that won't yield any profit, that other 1% can still screw things up. Just look at Bin Laden.

2) There are actually some wars fought for reasons other than power and money (which might not be quite the same, but certainly are closely linked). People occasionally do fight over areas with no significant natural resources or even civilian populations. I dunno why, but they do.

My tentative conclusion from these facts is that "follow the money" (and land next to water is indeed valuable in a dry region) is a good rule of thumb, but it's hardly an iron-clad rule.

Which is sad. If people only killed over money and power it would make perfect sense. And with rational grievances on the table you could at least hope to find a creative solution, something good enough for them to conclude that fighting just isn't worth it. (e.g. "Cake cutting algorithms") It would still suck big time when they killed, but it would make sense. But when people kill over religion and pride, I have no clue what to do.

[crimethink]

If you want the thread to go to 500, I think you know which topic you need to bring up. But it will not be my doing; I merely foretell.

Oh, and thoreau has highly toned ankles.

[Jennifer]

If people only killed over money and power it would make perfect sense

Well, Thoreau, so far as I'm concerned fighting over religion, or a piece of generally worthless land that is supposedly holy, is merely a subcategory of fighting over power. Think of Bin Laden--at first glance it seems irrational to give up the life of a megamillionaire to go live in a cave. But it's no more irrational than any sort of gamble: suppose Bin Laden actually managed to win his little war? When he says "I'm fighting to restore the Caliphate," who do you suppose he pictures sitting on the Caliph's throne?

Oliver Cromwell honestly thought that he was motivated by religion and doing the work of the Lord, but damned if he didn't manage to acquire a great deal of personal wealth and power as a result of doing the Lord's work.

[Eryk Boston]

Maybe there's an ego trip in thinking you can get people to fight over 100 square miles of wasteland.

Oh, and Jennifer has no embarrasing panty lines.

[Hakluyt]

The lot of you should realize that the climate of today's Levant is very different than what it was in the ancient world. Projecting today's water problems onto the past just ignores this fact. Hell, the fact that some of your are Christians and don't realize these changes in climate just stuns me.

thoreau,

And with rational grievances...

Fighting over money or power are "rational grievances?" Heh. What makes them more rational than fighting over religion?

[jw]

HEY!!!

No one said anything nice about ME when they posted after me on this thread.

I was just flat SWINDLED!!! ROBBED!!! I say.

I'm taking my brilliant, insightful thoughts and going home! 🙂

[Jennifer]

All right. JW has excellent taste in women.

[Jennifer]

Thinking more about what you said, Thoreau--ultimately it's our animal natures that make us fight. Underneath our cerebellums we have the same nasty reptilian brains that have dbeen around for hundreds of millions of years.

Animals have no money or religion, so what do they fight over? other than self-defense, it's for territory, food, access to females, the potential to be the alpha male of the group (which becomes "power" when overlaid with the human intellect), or just to wipe out potential rivals.

Is there any human war that doesn't fall under at least one of these categories?

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

Apparently, India and Pakistan have troops stationed on some uninhabitable glaciers, and there's no oil or minerals under those glaciers. Whatever reasons they may have for fighting over the rest of Kashmir, the glaciers apparently boil down to simple pride.

"Don't you be dissing me!" is surely the stupidest reason to fight.

[thoreau]

One more thing-

I see your point about being alpha male, but alpha male wouldn't be worth killing for if the alpha male didn't get more mating partners and food. Or, in today's lingo, bitches and benjamins.

[Eryk Boston]

It's worth noting that after India and Pakistan fought for the first time this century they drew the cease fire line only up to the mountains. This was because they figured the area north of that point was so barren and useless that no one would fight over it. It only took a few years before they started another war over a border dispute in the barren area. Just for good measure it was over who had the power to issue climbing rights to mountaineers.

And Thoreau is really gifted at extracting tools from the bottom of a lake.

[Jamie]

Eryk is a Viking.

[Jamie]

But he's a nice Viking. Good to the kids. Buys mammoth bones for his wife.

[Jennifer]

Whatever reasons they may have for fighting over the rest of Kashmir, the glaciers apparently boil down to simple pride."Don't you be dissing me!" is surely the stupidest reason to fight.

But Thoreau, isn't pride just another subvariant of power? "Don't be dissing me" because if my underlings see you dis me they may decide to stop being my underlings.

[Jamie]

Jennifer ... where's my compliment, babe?

[Jamie]

Jennifer's mind makes me not want to ever date a conservative woman again.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer's mind makes me not want to ever date a conservative woman again.

Before I say anything nice about you, Jamie, I need to know if that was a compliment or an insult.

[Jamie]

Compliment. Unless you consider being called a conservative high praise.

[Jennifer]

Jamie, most people on this board would indeed take conservative as a compliment. As for me, though, it only applies to the way I dress.

Damn. I already used the "excellent taste in women" joke on JW. How about--Jamie is the nicest guy I don't know?

[thoreau]

But Thoreau, isn't pride just another subvariant of power? "Don't be dissing me" because if my underlings see you dis me they may decide to stop being my underlings.

OK, I see your point. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while there may be a lot of idiots who will fight to the death over a useless glacier because "that's our glacier, dammit!", the people who are committing resources to the fight have something else in mind. Even if it's just a show of power to intimidate their own people, or a spectacle to distract the public, or simply a way to funnel money to defense contractors, or whatever, there's always more to a fight than "My God has a bigger dick than your God!"

[Jamie]

Most people on this board would indeed take conservative as a compliment.

What the ... friggin' ... that ain't the Reason I know. Libertarian, maybe ... P.S., you know me. I'm one of three libertarian daily newspaper reporters and editors in the entire world.

[Jamie]

Most people on this board would indeed take conservative as a compliment.

What the ... friggin' ... that ain't the Reason I know. Libertarian, maybe ... P.S., you know me. I'm one of three libertarian daily newspaper reporters and editors in the entire world.

[Jennifer]

P.S., you know me. I'm one of three libertarian daily newspaper reporters and editors in the entire world.

Word of advice: for your own sanity, DO NOT say that to a libertarian woman currently trying to break into the journalism biz.

Thoreau, I agree "My god has a bigger dick than your god" isn't ever REALLY the reason wars are fought. Even the Crusades weren't about religion so much as they were about land; religion was merely the excuse. After all, I might be able to get you to go to war for the sake of pleasing God, but how likely is it that you'll go to war for the sake of making me wealthy?

[Jamie]

Jennifer:
Good luck with "breaking into the biz." Just get used to the lefties in the newsroom. The lefty in front of you. The lefty to the left, the lefty to the right. Do the hokey-pokey, and you're writing stories about how fiscal conservatives kick small animals for fun, that's what it's all about.

[Jennifer]

Jamie, I used to be a public-school teacher. Believe me, I know.

[Jennifer]

Whoops! I hit "post" before I finished what I was saying--I consider myself a left-winger, but there's a difference between "left of center" and "as far left as you can go without falling off of the spectrum."

Maybe my old feminist professor was right and all men are inherently evil--but what the hell. I like y'all anyway.

[Eryk Boston]

Funny, I like to think the big point of the crusades was to get the warlords to fight someone other than each other and somewhere other than their homelands.

And Jennifer is having a good hair day.

[thoreau]

Eryk-

Do you know Jennifer? Cuz you keep commenting on her appearance today.

[Eryk Boston]

No, just demonstrating the comments you come up with when you take a double dose of pain meds.

And Thoreau's dandruff is finally under control.

[Jennifer]

No, just demonstrating the comments you come up with when you take a double dose of pain meds.

Whatm, you're saying you have to be STONED to compliment me? Hmmph. Harrumph.

I am having a good hair day, however.

[Eryk Boston]

Perhaps I just become more sensitive to embarrassing panty lines.

[Jennifer]

Do panty lines even exist anymore? I thought underwear technology had evolved past that.

[Jennifer]

Incidentally, Thoreau, Jeff and I are currently watching some Batman cartoon-movie; Batman is making the Joker undergo a complete psychotic meltdown via the simple technique of dissing him. "You're not funny! You're pathetic!"

Do not underestimate the raw animal power of the dis.

[Another libertarian newspaper]

It's not that bad, Jennifer. A libertarian in a newsroom doesn't get the same look of horror as an honest-to-Christ right-winger. Us libertarians have that "oh, that's such a weird philosoply, it's almost cute" thing going. Plus we like drugs.

[Eryk Boston]

Panty lines still exist although usually not too embarassing. Feel free to be self-concious about it.

ALNR understands that people dislike heretics more than infidels.

[Jennifer]

I don't have any such lines to feel self-conscious about, Eryk.

I want some of your pain meds. They seem to be quite intense.

[Eryk Boston]

So you go with boxers?

Sure, all you have to do is fracture your foot, sprain your ankle and turn the rest of foot into one large contusion so that the left and right foot look like the before and after shots for a miracle diet program and the foot turns into prety christmas colors. From my experience, this is best done during karate sparring as a direct result of wearing safety gear.

[Jennifer]

No, Eryk, just sleek enough and small enough to be quite unobtrusive.

[Eryk Boston]

I'll remember your tips the next time I wear my kilt.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and Eryk--when did this happen? I hope you didn't spend Thanksgiving in an emergency room.

[jw]

Most civilizations (at least those whose members didn't drag their knuckles) that I have ever read about or heard of had (or have) fairly strict moral sanctions against robbing, raping, killing, and general pillaging among their own members. Given the kind of internal , litteral-minded logic employed by the subconscious I think such people would have a difficulty in committing those actions against others without self-condemnation. And since humans seem to have an inate need or desire to think well of themselves, they need an excuse or justification for such actions. Religion has always supplied the excuse quite well.
On the other hand people fight for any number of reasons. I thinks wars are seldom fought for any single, monolithic purpose, regardless of what political and religious leaders might tell us.
If you think that wars are fought for religion (or only religion), consider how difficult it really is to get people to obey the dictates of their religions. Even the threat of eternal damnation will not always deter "immoral" actions by people who consider themselves believers.
Then again you have people like Bin Ladin. Just your basic control-freak (if reports are to be believed.) Either live HIS way or live not at all. He and the rest of the Taliban-mentalities are saying that if you don't live their way that they will KILL you. I think given Americans' tradition of (relative) religious freedom that many find such a sentiment hard to believe or even to comprehend.
Frankly I think religious zealots that are willing to kill inocent strangers simply because said strangers don't happen to believe in the zealots' particular version of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" are simply psychopaths or megalomaniacs.

I don't know who posted just before this, but he or she is probably a being of salient intelligence,...unless, of course, it was Joe. 🙂

[jw]

Where in hell is Joe on this thread, anyway?

[Eryk Boston]

No, I got to enjoy learning how to use crutches in Virginia before visiting family in Massachusetts and using them on the ice.

[Jennifer]

Most civilizations (at least those whose members didn't drag their knuckles) that I have ever read about or heard of had (or have) fairly strict moral sanctions against robbing, raping, killing, and general pillaging among their own members. Given the kind of internal , litteral-minded logic employed by the subconscious I think such people would have a difficulty in committing those actions against others without self-condemnation.

Margaret Mead once noted that every society in history has said it is a sin to kill or hurt another human being--but for most of history, "human being" was defined as "me, my family, and the other guys in my tribe." Everyone else was fit for killing.

And thus, many non-sociopaths can be evil with no bad conscience. A lot of concentration-camp guards were loving husbands and fathers, and could be the sweetest men you'd ever meet--IF you were the right ethnicity. And I remember watching a documentary about one of the black men murdered during the civil rights movement--maybe Medgar Evers, though I'm not sure--the murdered man's mother talked about how strange it was for her to be in court and see that this man who brutally murdered her son was so very kind and loving with his own family.

[Eryk Boston]

Oh, and jw brakes for animals.

[jw]

Of course, I brake for animals.....even tailess, biped monkeys!
( Yes, I know that humans are considered a species of ape by some. I also know that one of the differences between monkeys and apes is the presence of a tail. But monkeys are such vicious creatures for the most part that humans are much more reminiscent of them than of apes.

And Eryk is a descendant of one of fine cream pie Bostons.

[jw]

Jennifer,
Your mention of those civil rights killings and trials brings to mind the fact that even Hitler liked little children. And Stalin (did I spell that right?) was often said to remind some of a kindly old grandfather. I suppose that one could say that is proof that no one is ALL bad, but I think it more likely to be an indication that some can keep their right hand in the dark about what their left hand is doing. Or vice versa.

Thoreau's thoughts about two individuals fighting over being "dissed" and your subsequent answer that it is probably about saving face in order to keep their underlings in line: Yes, I'd agree that you would often be right about that. But I can imagine that sort of thing happening between two parties who don't even have any underlings. Generally they don't have much of anything else either. In fact, the less they have the more perversely protective of it they seem to be.
Makes me think of a couple of pissant chihuauhuas fighting over a great dane in estrus.

[Eryk Boston]

I'd say it shows that evil people are only truly dangerous when they have the charisma to get large numbers of people to carry out their evil ideas.

jw may or may not be Irish, but someone should kiss him anyway.

[Jennifer]

I suppose that one could say that is proof that no one is ALL bad, but I think it more likely to be an indication that some can keep their right hand in the dark about what their left hand is doing. Or vice versa.

No, I think it confirms what Mead said about "real" human beings. For most of history, any one person would tell you that there were only a hundred or so humans on earth--everyone else was simply "other." Kill them if you wish. The greatest thing about the advance of civilization is the increase in the number of people considered human enough to be off-limits for murder; right now, at least in the US, the only people whom one can kill with little to no fear of recrimination are various flavors of Arab, and even then they have to be in Afghanistan or Iraq. Compare that to even a hundred years ago, when you could stay in our own country and kill Indians or blacks with equanimity.

Racism, violence, distrust of the different. . . these are parts of our inherent genetic legacy which we must always battle to overcome.

[Hakluyt]

jw,

...that even Hitler liked little children.

Why should that surprise anyone?

Certain people were inside Hitler's moral universe and others were not. The task of the Nazis was to create a likeminded society. Nazis weren't nihilists, they believed what they were doing was heroic and indeed required of morality. If saving the Volk meant slaughtering millions, well so be it. Nazism was at base an "ethically oriented" ideology based on firm, "objective," etc. goals. It was not amoral, it was charged with clear moral goals, presuppositions, etc.

[Happy Jack]

So, did all of you who are in the U.S. go on a shopping frenzy today?

No. I leave the frenzy to others. I suspect gaius will weigh in on this behavior at some point in time.

[Eryk Boston]

OK, how did we go from Thanksgiving wishes to genocide?

Hakluyt plays well with exactly six other people.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Heh. I've been reading a lot of the current research on the Nazis and Nazi ideology.

Anyway, I don't celebrate Thanksgiving.

[Jennifer]

how did we go from Thanksgiving wishes to genocide?

The Indians would say it's a natural progression!

[Hakluyt]

One cannot read William Bradford's account of the Pequot War and have much taste for celebrating Thanksgiving.

[Hakluyt]

Interesting story out of Poland:

WARSAW In a early test of its relations with Russia, Poland's new government opened up on Friday previously sealed Warsaw Pact military archives, including a 1979 map showing Soviet plans to sacrifice Poland in the event of nuclear war with the West.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/25/opinion/poland.php

[Eryk Boston]

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness so I know you can come up with some bad angle for any holiday.

Hakluyt looks forward to jury duty.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Its fairly rare for anyone who has gone to law school for them to be permitted to sit on a jury. If called they'd likely be struck from the pool almost immediately during voir dire.

[jw]

But Jennifer,
Wars are not always fought between peoples of differing ethnicities or races. Consider the United States' War Between The States or the American Revolution. Or the various conflicts in South and Central America. Those combatants knew full well that the other side was as human as they.
I'm familiar with Meade's thoughts about the "other" (or whomever's thoughts they were) and she definitely made some valid points. But a "genetic legacy"? I would find that hard to buy. Have you by any chance ever read any of Robert Ardry's work or Desmond Morris? Their opinions were quite in vogue about thirtyfive years ago...not too long after Margaret Meade's.
And there was always Konrad Lorenz.
I, for one, have always been doubtful of the idea that man is a prisoner of his genes in the behavioral sense; if he were, there would never be any progress. Or even much change.

[Hakluyt]

jw,

Much of Meade's work has been discredited.

Those combatants knew full well that the other side was as human as they.

That's not the issue. You can acknowledge that someone is a human and still argue that they aren't a part of your moral universe. Indeed, with the case of the Nazis they quickly abandoned efforts to identity any biological characteristics by which to different "Germans" from "Jews" and concentrated on cultural, etc. differences.

[Eryk Boston]

Funny, I'm currently in law school and I keep getting e-mails asking me to be a juror.

[jw]

Hakluyt,
I'm NOT surprized that Hitler liked little children. You're entirely right about the Nazis' thinking of themselves as "moral". How else could they do what they did? Or the Communists in the Soviet Union and China? Hell! That's the point that both I AND Jennifer were trying to make (if I read Jennifer rightly.) Of course, they thought they were being moral. They just had a defective morality. "Objective"? Do you mean in the sense of the Randians' philosophy? They would certainly disagree, I think.

Whoever posted in front of me is a creature of rare discernment.

[thoreau]

Eryk-

I'm sure you'd render a fairer verdict than this guy described in the Onion:

Activist Wet-T-Shirt Judge Votes For Girlfriend
November 16, 2005 | Issue 41?46

COLUMBIA, SC--Andrew Scully, 26, a bartender and wet-T-shirt-contest judge at local nightclub Deep Waters, has been accused of personal bias and "legislating from the barstool" after ruling in favor of his girlfriend, Heather Swain, in Friday's "Waters' Melons!!!" wet-T-shirt contest. "Inevitably, my own perceptions will guide my interpretation and application of event guidelines?if that weren't a part of our system, we could just replace the judges with a tape measure," said Scully, responding to bar patrons who said they believed that several contestants had breasts both larger and better-displayed than Swain's. "I like to think of a wet-T-shirt contestant not as a rigid set of body-type rules, but as a living, breathing object." Conservative leaders of the Federalist Wet-T-Shirt Contest Society are calling for Scully's resignation.

[Eryk Boston]

I'd never judge a wet t-shirt contest well. Now, a "most spankable bottom" contest I could offer expert testimony.

[Jennifer]

Wars are not always fought between peoples of differing ethnicities or races. Consider the United States' War Between The States or the American Revolution. Or the various conflicts in South and Central America. Those combatants knew full well that the other side was as human as they.

No, but then that goes to the other animal motivations for fighting which Thoreau and I discussed earlier--territory, food, females, power, or just elimination of a rival.

[Eryk Boston]

And Thoreau knows a real pair when he sees them.

[Jennifer]

Now, a "most spankable bottom" contest I could offer expert testimony.

Said by the only person to comment on my earlier S&M joke. Coincidence? I think not.

[jw]

Hakluyt,
You know,...the more that comes to light about the Germans and their Final Solution the more convinced I am that it was really mostly about something as crass as simple robbery. Look at the gobs of gold and art treasures, land and businesses that were plundered. And mostly from people who had had the good sense not to fall for the government's monetary bullshit.

[jw]

"No, but then that goes to the other animal motivations for fighting which Thoreau and I discussed earlier--territory, food, females, power, or just elimination of a rival."
( I just cut and pasted your quote, Jennifer. Hope it comes out right.)

Well hell! If one is alive, one has to be either plant or animal,...if one is larger than an amoeba. At least, on this planet and as far as is known. But in order to do all those nasty things to others that are pretty much minding their own business, they have to be made out to be subhuman, or immoral, or the "Other", etc. In other words an excuse or justification. Nationalism and Religion have always furnished that excuse. As has racism, bigotry, etc.

I would be the first to agree that humans are animals, but they are a distinct kind of animal whose behavior is for the most part very different from others and requires a much more "nuanced" (great term) explanation. (Basicly we are all just a bunch of thieving, vicious, back-biting monkeys who have lost our tails!) But seriously, I don't think all our behavior can be explaned by instincts and genetics. At least not simple genetics. I doubt there is a specific gene that directly makes us do any thing other than the simple physiological things. I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Jennifer]

I don't think all our behavior can be explaned by instincts and genetics

I don't either, but at the same time we can't ignore the roles which instincts and genetics DO play.

[jw]

Geez!!! but you are a fast typist, Jennifer.

[Jennifer]

Fast typist, fast reader--everything in high gear. Yes indeed.

[Jennifer]

I would be the first to agree that humans are animals, but they are a distinct kind of animal whose behavior is for the most part very different from others and requires a much more "nuanced" (great term) explanation.

We are different from most animals in that we are capable of suppressing our instincts; most men who see an attractive woman in public don't pounce on her. But being capable of suppressing our instincts doesn't mean we all do.

[raymond]

Happy Don't Beat Your Wife Day.

[jw]

"We are different from most animals in that we are capable of suppressing our instincts; most men who see an attractive woman in public don't pounce on her. But being capable of suppressing our instincts doesn't mean we all do."

I take it that you are using the term instinct in the sense of an inate need or drive,...or even a response. Biologically an instinct is an inate form of knowlege, some behavior a creature can perform without having been taught. Psychologically the word usually denotes the former,...an inborn drive or need. I would agree that humans have instincts in the psychological sense, but not in the biologiical.
It's the old question of Nature versus Nurture. Yes, some or most men and women can and/or do suppress (as well as repress) their drives. But what explains the fact that some do and some do not do so? More than that,...what explains the manner of one's response and what one responds to? Why are some different than others?

[jw]

And what the hell explains whay my computer keeps slowing down this time of night. My posts are taking longer and longer to go through again.

[Jennifer]

And what the hell explains whay my computer keeps slowing down this time of night. My posts are taking longer and longer to go through again.

It's not your computer, it's the server.

Yes, some or most men and women can and/or do suppress (as well as repress) their drives. But what explains the fact that some do and some do not do so?

Outside of a serial rapist, what man or woman do you know who does NOT suppress their sex drive? The majority of men and women do not physically attack those whom they see and think "Wow, that's someone I'd like in my bed."

[Jennifer]

And what the hell explains whay my computer keeps slowing down this time of night. My posts are taking longer and longer to go through again.

It's not your computer, it's the server.

Yes, some or most men and women can and/or do suppress (as well as repress) their drives. But what explains the fact that some do and some do not do so?

Outside of a serial rapist, what man or woman do you know who does NOT suppress their sex drive? The majority of men and women do not physically attack those whom they see and think "Wow, that's someone I'd like in my bed."

[Jennifer]

I would agree that humans have instincts in the psychological sense, but not in the biologiical.

I do not understand the distinction you're making here between psychological and biological instinct. Can you give me an example of a psychological instinct we have?

[raymond]

And what the hell explains whay my computer keeps slowing down this time of night. My posts are taking longer and longer to go through again.

It's checking for spelling mistakes. (And doing a lousy job of it, I might add.)

And even serial rapists control their sex drives.

(And rape isn't about sex. At least, that's the common wisdom.)

[zeiner]

Some say that rape is all about power.

[dead_elvis]

Re: panty line technology

This technology is possible courtesy of differential calculus. You know, graph the panty line as width x approaches zero...

And raymond isn't anything like that sap on TV.

[jw]

An example of a "psychological" instinct.

Lets see. I think most of the psychologists agree these days that humans have an instinct of self-preservation as well as an instinct or urge to procreate. Bear in mind that they are not neccessarily saying that humans are born knowing HOW to do these things. What else? I guess there is the fear of falling (nearly universal) and of course, the old urge to escape pain and to seek pleasure (whatever one deems pleasure or pain to be) There IS an innate need of stimulation, I believe. I think some one did some experiments or studies along that line with babies once.
YOU think of some. I don't want to do all the work.

BTW, what makes you think serial rapists don't or can't suppress their desires? And with them or anyone else,...is it actually suppression always, or could it just be satiation? Or could it be lack of anything to respond to? Lots of questions when it comes to human behavior.

Can I go to bed now? Please?

[jw]

And Raymond? My computer doesn't check for spelling when I post here. How good is YOURS without spellcheck, Mr. Utopian?

Goodnight to the rest of you.

[SM]

thoreau,

"Apparently, India and Pakistan have troops stationed on some uninhabitable glaciers, and there's no oil or minerals under those glaciers. Whatever reasons they may have for fighting over the rest of Kashmir, the glaciers apparently boil down to simple pride."

I assume you are talking about the Siachen glacier. According to the participating militaries, holding on to the hieghts allows them to dominate the Kashmir valley is some way - ie it's not just dumb pride. It could be that they are wrong or that they are vested in the status quo - I would be easily persuaded of either version. But just outta curiosity - where did you get htis idea that it's "simple pride" ?

[SM]

Hakluyt,

"Indeed, with the case of the Nazis they quickly abandoned efforts to identity any biological characteristics by which to different "Germans" from "Jews" and concentrated on cultural, etc. differences."

Do you have any books to defend that assertion ? I'd check them out.

Well, i've done my part towards the 500 marker.

[raymond]

How good is YOURS without spellcheck

A spell-checker would be about as useful to me as a breathing-checker.

And raymond isn't anything like that sap on TV.

Yet, he is loved. Deeply loved. By all.

[Hakluyt]

SM,

Claudia Koonz, The Nazi Conscience

[Eryk Boston]

Let me be the first to say it:

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[saw-whet]

"The lot of you should realize that the climate of today's Levant is very different than what it was in the ancient world. Projecting today's water problems onto the past just ignores this fact. Hell, the fact that some of your are Christians and don't realize these changes in climate just stuns me." Hak

And yes, I mean Hak. Your arrogance stuns me. Of course we all know the soil in the Levant was in a different condition then.

Oh and just for giggles, I was a meterologist/climatologist before I was a water quality engineer.

[saw-whet]

Aw, jw don't go home. We need your brilliant, insightful whatever it is you have going on there. How about if I invite you to the rustbelt get together. Feel better now?

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

If it is arrogant to point out that people are wrong, so be it.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

Of course we all know the soil in the Levant was in a different condition then.

If Jennifer and thoreau know this then they certainly don't demonstrate that in their commentary. Then again, Jennifer also claims that the Levant doesn't have any valuable ports. Of course the Levant has housed important harbors since the time of the Phoenicians. Because the area in general links Asia, Africa and Europe it has always been an important land route as well.

[thoreau]

saw-whet:

Are you suggesting that climates can change?

Heretic!

🙂

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Well, its really not so much that the climate changed than that the land was overworked in comparison to the amount of percipitation that could be expected in the region (there are also factors with regard to the soil to consider as well). Thus many of the grasslands of the region were turned int barren wastes.

[saw-whet]

Soil conditions. Oh, and climates.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: There was no atomic bomb used on Hiroshima. That was just me in a parachute kicking Japanese ass.

Discuss.

[saw-whet]

I have seen the best climates of my generation change.

[Hakluyt]

Of course, changes in vegetative cover will change climate. This is why some of the first modern forest conversation efforts occurred on he colonial island holdings of Britain and France. The intensive deforestation of such small islands led to changes in climatic patterns on the islands.

See: Donald Hughes, Green Imperialism: Colonial Expansion, Tropical Island Edens and the Origins of Environmentalism, 1600-1860

[Hakluyt]

Chuck Norris,

Man, you really are old. 🙂

[Twba]

Thoreau,

I suggest you read The Lorax before you embarrass yourself further.

[Hakluyt]

Twba,

The Lorax was wrong of course. 🙂

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: I am older than you can imagine. God was going to take 9 days to create the earth, but I gave the slacker a quick backhand and an icy stare. You know the rest.

[Hakluyt]

Marx wrote:

A society cannot leave off producing any more than it can leave off consuming.

Discuss.

[saw-whet]

Let's change this thread into something useful. I'm planning on getting an online masters degree in environmental engineering, but I need to brush up on my advanced math first. I plan to take calc II at the local community college online ($500 for the one class and those of you who know how old I am know there is no favorable cost/benifit ratio going on here.) But where can I take other online higher math courses?

The environmental engineering program at Norwich University sounds good. At $25,000 for one and a half years it ought to be good. Any thoghts, suggestions?

[Eddy]

I would agree that humans have instincts in the psychological sense, but not in the biological.

I put the demarcation for instinct at utilizing reason rather than inate or unlearned. As a result, I would define biological instinct as an inward process that occurs typically on a small scale. Cellular division, immune responses and liver regeneration I would classify as pure biological instinct. Sure it's just a bunch of molecules doing an elaborate dance choreographed by a string of proteins driven by entropy, osmosis and chemistry but there isn't any cognitive function at that level.

Psychological instinct on the other hand has two components which touch on your nature v. nurture argument. One is primal and the other is customary. The fear of falling you mention, I would classify as primal but the fear that drives people to give "thugs" a wide berth when coming down the street would be customary. Notice that the customary response is one that has been learned but may or may not be rational.

I'd go so far as to say that those who lack a customary instinct to suppress their drives (or just have bad wiring) are more likely to act on those drives if there are no instinctual motivations curtailing those actions, ie. when the cat is away.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: Calculus is easy once you master the snap-kick, the down-kick, and trigonometric integrals.

[saw-whet]

'thoghts' really ought to be a word. Don't you think?

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

A chemical engineer would tell you to get a chemical engineering degree. Or at least, that's what my chemical engineering friends tell me to tell people considering an environmental engineering program.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

I'm guessing you mean Norwich University in Vermont, correct?

[Twba]

Marx: "I would never join a club which accepts me as a member."

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: When confronted with a Chemical Engineering challenge, I usually use a forward roll followed by a direct chop to the chemicals' throat. After that, they just do as I ask.

[Hakluyt]

Chuck Norris,

Keep them coming.

[Twba]

Did anyone read the freegan story? I'm no freegan. I'm just a dumpster diving renegade. I've retrieved more great stuff from the trash than Chuck Norris has kicked ass.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: It is the law in Sweden that my toenail clippings can be exchanged for currency. 20000 Kronor per ounce.

[Hakluyt]

For it is clear that the goods come to the open market and there it can be seen if they are good and fair or not ... for of things ... sold on the open market, all may have a share, poor and rich. - Boileau, Livre de M?tiers (1270 CE)

Discuss.

[saw-whet]

I have plenty of colleagues who are chemical engineers. Actually my backgroung is in heavy construction/civil and I should probably stick close to that. Career-wise, I haven't been all over the map, but damn close to it.

Here's a definition of career from my Simon & Schuster: a swift course, as of the sun through the sky.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: The only thing that's happened more than me kicking ass, is my enemies wetting of themselves because I'm about to kick their asses. And that's only because I always want the next one to know his time is up.

[saw-whet]

This is 392. Keep it up guys!

[Twba]

... for of things ... sold on the open market, all may have a share, poor and rich.

So it came to pass that five hundred assembled in the parking lot to await the best price of the year. When informed that WalMart had only stocked one hundred of the much sought after things, a hockey game broke out.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: There is no sun. That's just me with a spotlight, searching the eternal dark for skinheads who's asses need to be kicked. I do it every morning.

[saw-whet]

So where's R C Dean and Shannon Love? And my fellow rustbeltian, Ruthless? Hey I promise to give Ruth back if you just help us to 400!

[saw-whet]

Somehow I think it was Norwich College when I took my EIT there. It was kind of funny watching the students in their camouflage uniforms.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: RC Dean and Shannon Love are locked in the basement of Communist sympathizers. A couple more spearhands and a reverse punch, and I'll have rescued them.

[saw-whet]

OK, next one wins.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: I took a trip to the Reason server room. I pointed at the server, then glanced at it over my shoulder as I walked out. That's the only reason its handling 400 posts on the same thread and not crashing.

[Hakluyt]

If the Christian faith did sanction the greed of empires, it would be necessary to proscribe for all time to come its bloodthirsty practice. - Abbe Raynal, Histoire de deux Indies

[saw-whet]

From the Chicago Times via Antiwar.com: "Pullout would destabilize Iraq, top general tells troops on visit"

Why was General George Casey just visiting? You know, these American people I keep hearing about seem to be quite fickle. One day blood lust, the next day, 'heh, let the wogs fight it out.'

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: When Jesus was resurrected, I re-hung him upside down on a cross of Satan's bones, to make sure it would stick this time, on the principle that a real man accepts death when it's his time. Were it not for me, he'd be alive today, and the Church would have been able to rely on his unerring judgment rather than introspection and prayer to make it through its moral crises, and would consequently be weaker today for it.

You are welcome, Christians.

[thoreau]

saw-whet:

I have friends in various professions, and I have had discussions with all of them concerning what advice I should give to people considering some other profession. My environmental economist friends think you should study environmental economics instead of environmental engineering. My medical friends think that medicine is better than environmental engineering. My friends in the French Marines think that being a French Marine is better than being an environmental engineer. I talked to a math professor who thinks that being a math professor is better than being an environmental engineer. And a lawyer that I know said that selling your soul to Satan and living off blood is better than being an environmental engineer.

I think that being a physicist is better than being an environmental engineer. But if you would like to be an environmental engineer, then you should do that.

I don't know about online calculus classes, but if you've studied it before and you just need the refresher but not the college credit, why not invest a much smaller sum on a Schaum's Outline and work through those problems?

[raymond]

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

moi

[thoreau]

Oh, and my friends in urban planning think that smashing the capitalist system is better than being an environmental engineer.

(Just kidding, joe 🙂

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: Thoreau once crossed me in a game of darts at tavern in Concord. After that, he spent a great deal of time in the woods hiding from me.

You are welcome also, Thoreau.

[Eddy]

To tax or not to tax? That is the question.

[thoreau]

To be serious, now, I have worked with chemical engineers, and I find them to be very smart people who actually have a lot in common with physicists. They bring together the best of physics, chemistry, materials science, and practical engineering.

[saw-whet]

Yes, Thoreau, I've been doing the Schaum's thing but think the dicipline of plopping down $500 would make the knowledge stick in my mind a bit longer. Actually I do have an agenda. It's for me, not the children. And money is no object. Is it possible to do something and then die happy, or do we just unwittingly croak?

Oh yeah, *in a wispered voice* linear algebra and differential equations were not required at Oregon Tech when I went there. I hear they're quite handy for fluid mechanics, though.

But hey, that French Marine thing would be cool, if I was bi- or something. Maybe Herrick would be interested.

[saw-whet]

Hey! Is anyone manning the feeding station for the server squirrels? How about the backup hamsters? We can't let this thread crash for the sake of a few nuts.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

If you want nuts, then feed them thoreau.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

The point of course is that what environmental engineers are called on to do would be done with greater efficacy by chemical engineers.

[saw-whet]

No way. Meteorologist, tree planter, farm laborer, civil engineer, surveyor/drafter, environmental engineer, no way am I taking up chemical engineering.

Oh, did I mention pot grower? And who needs efficiency when you're just pleasantly drifting through life? I wonder how long it will take before a big L comes on and gets all harumphy.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

I am just a messenger in this instance. I am giving you the advice I was given.

[thoreau]

saw-whet-

I won't presume to tell you what degree is best for you. You have enough professional experience to gauge that for yourself.

[Eddy]

Just to lob one in there, environmental chemistry and then you can go either way.

[kwais]

OK time for me to jump on this, after it took me over an hour to read all the posts.

Jen & JW,

You are all confused about the "instinct" thing.

That a man does not jump and try to rape any pretty women (be it for sex, or be it for power), is due to his instinc for self preservation over riding his instinc to impose himself. Or his instinct to feel belonging in society, or his instinct to self worth.

That a religous man may fast is an example of his instinct to whatever instinct prompts someone to spirituality (fear of the afterlife, need to connect unknown dots ect).

You do not control your instincts, you ARE your instincts. Your nuture or your learning and experience teach you how to satisfy your instincts.

THERE IS NO GHOST IN THE MACHINE

[Eddy]

THERE IS NO GHOST IN THE MACHINE

I take it you don't run NSA^H^H^H DHS Windows.

Seriously, what am I going to do with all of these yams and sweet potatos?

[Jennifer]

That a man does not jump and try to rape any pretty women (be it for sex, or be it for power), is due to his instinc for self preservation over riding his instinc to impose himself. Or his instinct to feel belonging in society, or his instinct to self worth.

Regardless of why a person would restrain himself in a given situation, the fact remains that people do indeed repress various natural urges from time to time (though some more successfully than others). My "serial rapist" example turned out to be a bad choice on my part, but if you take that out then the rest of my statement to JW still stands. Remember, that whole topic got started because Thoreau and I were trying to discuss The Nature of War, and I am of the belief that all of humanity's
wars ultimately boil down to the same motivations as animals--either self-defense, desire for territory or food, access to females, chance to get power (alpha status), or elimination or a rival.

Of course, the powerful old men who start these wars are rarely truthful to the young men who fight them; the young men are given pretty platitudes. "We must reclaim the Tomb of Christ from the heathens! The chance to get land and slaves being merely incidental here, of course. Ahem."

So, to recap without any rapist-diversions: we are still animals, though of coure we've evolved far more brain power than any of them. Unlike the lower animals, we ARE capable of controlling our instincts rather than let our instincts control us: we can have sexy thoughts and not immediately act on them. We can feel hungry and yet not immediately eat the food before us. We can feel afraid and yet continue what we're doing rather than turn around and run away (I would imagine, Kwais, that you and your comrades use this every freakin' day you're overseas). And so forth.

[Jennifer]

By the way, I just wanted to point out that my last comment was number 420. If only I had some interstate commerce on hand to truly celebrate the beauty of the coincidence.

[dead_elvis]

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

I have been. But I find the Iraq war threads to be the Most... Boring... Ever... so I never post about it.

But anyway, I also recently considered the whole back-to-school engineering thing because it's probably what I should have done to begin with. I'm probably most interested in electrical; people have recommended mechanical as well for the job market, since it's applicable in so many different fields.

I recently got an algebra workbook out of the library and as I went through it I was reminded of the whole Barbie brou-ha-ha: "Math is Hard!"

[Jennifer]

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

Me. I supported Afghanistan, but opposed Iraq from the beginning.

[raymond]

Don't mess with Texas.

(There are 410 more waiting.)

[Twba]

There are 410 more waiting.

Texas will clear up that backlog by ripping out the electric chair and installing an electric couch.

[Eddy]

Unlike the lower animals, we ARE capable of controlling our instincts rather than let our instincts control us

I think that is directly related to the why. If socio-economic and reward-punishment constraints are removed then there is no distinction between "lower animals" and humans. Dogs trained to retrieve don't often eat or even damage the birds they bring back so they can exercise some modicum of control. I don't see how humans are so different. If there is no external pressure to behave in a perscribed manner then a human is just as likely to act as an animal if not worse as is the case with many despots throughout history.

I agree with the assertion regarding the motivations for war but would put the emphasis on power and rival elimination, at least in the modern perspective since self-defense is more a response rather than a motive, preemption aside.

[David C.]

"How many here have been antiwar since day one"

A more interesting question would be how many were pro-war since day one. Since the anti-war types seem to predominate here.

[crimethink]

saw-whet,

Depending on where you're located, SUNY Empire State College (www.esc.edu) might be an option. They have distance learning courses in DiffEq, Discrete Math, Linear Algebra, Numerical Analysis, etc.

[crimethink]

BTW, I'm giving up on the compliments...continuing with it would be like being that one annoying guy who keeps laughing at jokes after everyone else stops. I did that once as a child, but my mom and her wooden spoon taught me better manners.

[raymond]

I'm giving up on the compliments

crimethink is capable of making intelligent decisions, even if it does take a while.

[saw-whet]

Let's see if this works. I just set up a new account with peoplepc.

[The Real Bill]

I've been pro-war and anti-Bush since day one. I guess that means that I don't play well with others.

I was shocked that Bush the Idiot invaded when he did, with so few troops. Sure, the number was great enough to smack down Saddam's army, but to occupy the place? Puleeze!

And by the way, I would never support any war that used conscripts, unless the conscripts were soccer moms.

[saw-whet]

Thanks, Crimethink.

Dead Elvis. You and Jennifer didn't catch my grammatical error. 'Rick Barton and me', not I.

[saw-whet]

Hey, Real Bill, Raymond and any other antiwar types, we really ought to get together. Here's a fun idea: at the next, maybe the rustbelt, get together we bring our laptops to a bar/restaurant that has internet capability of some sort and access the al Jezera site. The reporters are normal, the bloviators are odd, the commenters are off the charts. Sometimes anyway.

Please forgive any misspellings as I don't have spellcheck and I really am a dictionary kind of guy.

[raymond]

...didn't catch my grammatical error.

Polite people never point out the grammar mistakes of those who have not mastered the language.

Unless the language is French, of course.

[The Real Bill]

I don't think I can make it to the Rust Belt, since I live in San Francisco. Also, I'm for the war (although not necessarily for the same reasons that others are). Mind you, I'm not pro-war in general, but "some people should die; that's just unconscious knowledge". Those previously in charge of Iraq needed killin'.

[saw-whet]

Real Bill - Oops. Forget it then. Sort of. You're still cool in my book.

Raymond - Are you a Swiss national? If so, the next get together is at your bar/restauant of choice. Get your passports ready guys.

[The Real Bill]

By the way, I'm not anti-anti-war types. I freely admit that invading Iraq was a huge gamble. Reasonable people can disagree on the merits (or lack thereof). Even a popular war needs its detractors--groupthink is dangerous.

[raymond]

I think I'm too messy to be Swiss.

btw and coincidentally... I was watching al-Jazeera earlier this evening - right before you posted about it. I hope one day to understand what they're saying by osmosis. And besides, I want to see as much of it as I can before Bush spreads more democracy and freedom by bombing it.

[The Real Bill]

Bombing al Jazeera would be a titanic mistake. Just imagine the ill-will that would engender toward the US. It would be better, although much more difficult, to encourage al Jazeera to become a responsible and accurate source of information in the ME. Whether their reporting helps or hurts, if its truthful it's a good thing. Anyway, unless we bomb certain western media outlets as well, the action would just be hypocritical.

[Jennifer]

It would be better, although much more difficult, to encourage al Jazeera to become a responsible and accurate source of information in the ME.

Al-Jazeera does not lie; they merely focus on the negative. Just as Fox News doesn't lie, but focuses on the positive. Watch both and you may get a balanced picture: Fox talks about the spiffy hospital we built, al-Jazeera talks about its patients who were raped by occupation forces. Fox shows the woman with the purple finger; al-Jazeera shows how her face was scarred from having the acid thrown in it. And so forth.

[Jennifer]

patients who were raped by occupation forces.

Whoops--I meant to say "patients introduced to the ecstatic act of love by the liberation forces."

[David C.]

"What I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving..."

Wow, nice paen of anti-Americanism. Here's a counterpoint:

I'm thankful that I live in a country that respects the fundamental rights of Life, Liberty, and Property better than any other country.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that actually does still execute vicious criminals, even if it executes only a tiny fraction of them.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where an attempt is made to have a humane prison system, even if the ideal falls short and abuses still occur.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that has all sorts of programs and help available for learning-disabled children.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where minorities of every type have a chance to succeed.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that responds to a major attack with a relatively mild internal security measure like the Patriot Act, even if it does go too far in certain sections.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where torture is illegal, and even enemy prisoners who obey no laws of warfare generally receive humane treatment. And when torture is used, large numbers of people, including some normally aligned with the administration, speak out against it and attempt to prevent it.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that does everything possible to minimize the loss of civilian life in warfare, even to the extent of putting its own soldiers in greater danger. And that does so despite getting no credit for it even from some of its own citizens.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that has a wide range of first-rate weaponry and munitions, including white phosphorus -- a versatile munition that has been routinely used by U.S. forces since WW2.

I'm thankful that I live in a country that stopped countless human rights abuses far greater than the few incidents that occured during our management of Abu Ghraib.

I'm thankful that I live in a country run by a government that at times may be incompetent, hypocritical and downright stupid, yet still is preferable to any other government elsewhere.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where people are free to criticize and demonize their leaders and even their own country to their hearts' content. And who face no retaliation greater than someone possibly daring to question their "patriotism."

[Jamie]

Holy fuck, you people are still posting on this thread? Jesus. H. Mother. Of. Mary. Christ.

[saw-whet]

General Curtis LeMay, that's who I was trying to think of. In my opinion no one deserves to be bombed. Others think diferently.

I am a US Air Force Viet Nam era veteran. No, not a ground pounder. A tech stationed in New Hampshire. I was a coward. Even though I wasn't killing *****, you fill in the word, I still think I have an opinion worth listening to. And that opinion is of antiwar.

I won't stand in the way of those who wish to engage in war... WTF, change that, maybe I should.

[saw-whet]

Hakluyt - you still out there? I remember Curtis LeMay's "Spindle" speach. You know, the one where he said that each fire-bombed Tokyo home had a metal lathe in it. I would think the fire-bombing would have melted them.

David C. - There are anti-Americans on this site? I don't believe that is true.

[Jennifer]

I'm thankful that I live in a country where torture is illegal
*(even though Cheney and Bush are doing their damnedest to change this)

I'm thankful that I live in a country that stopped countless human rights abuses far greater than the few incidents that occured during our management of Abu Ghraib
*(let's ignore the abuses still occurring, extraordinary rendition, and CIA secret prisons)

I'm thankful that I live in a country that responds to a major attack with a relatively mild internal security measure like the Patriot Act, even if it does go too far in certain sections.
*(too fucking bad they didn't respond by attaching our attacker, rather than insist on maintaining the charade that the Saudis are our pals)

I'm thankful that I live in a country that has a wide range of first-rate weaponry and munitions, including white phosphorus
*(except white phosphorus is illegal to use as a weapon, and if Saddam had used it that would have been one of the cited "reasons" why we attacked him)

[Jennifer]

Holy fuck, you people are still posting on this thread?

You know, Jamie, this here Internet won't surf itself.

[jeffiek]

this here Internet won't surf itself.

Be patient. It's still young.

[Jemez Hobbit]

saw-whet ..

.. I, too, am a US Air Force Viet Nam-era vet .. I spent my share of the war running a commuications link in the Azores, approximately exactly across the globe from Viet Nam ..

.. I "dodged the draft" by joining the AF so that I wouldn't have to serve in a bad war .. I didn't buy their bullshit then and I don't buy their bullshit now ..

.. starting a war with Iraq was a horrendous mistake .. I almost voted for Bush in 2000 because I didn't like Gore (wound up voting for the LP) .. in 2004 I voted for Kerry simply to express my anger at the Iraqi Crusade ..

.. long way to say, I guess I'm strongly anti-war this time around ..

.. Hobbit

[Randolph Carter]

Jemez Hobbit knows that Randolph Carter knows that bringing up a dead joke can be funny. But usually not.

[Randolph Carter]

Just trying to do my part to stretch this thing to 1000 - have each poster make up their own politically-affiliated curse word to hurl at the previous poster.

[saw-whet]

Hobbit - You are so cool for saying that. Antiwar doesnot equal un-American.

Jennifer - This old gezzer will smoke, I mean engage in, interstate commerce for you. Wish you and Jeff were here.

Crank up the Niel Young tunes. Better yet, crank up the Traffic tunes. You Know, Dream Gerard.

[Shawn Smith]

The link to the pictures of Jennifer not working was my fault. In my instructions on an earlier thread, I didn't make it clear that the place that the link points to is in the href="" part of the <a> element, and the part between the <a> and </a> is what appears to the user, but otherwise has no bearing as to what page comes up when the link is clicked.

My bad.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer - This old gezzer will smoke, I mean engage in, interstate commerce for you

No offense, darlin', but that doesn't make me feel better at all. If anything, it makes me resentful.

Oh, and Jeff is working tonight, too. Home alone on a Saturday night with nary boyfriend nor interstate commerce to brighten my life--holy fuck! I've come full circle back to high school!

[crimethink]

raymond,

With compliments like that, who needs insults? 😉

While it may have been corny, I just wanted us to take the opportunity to remember that despite, and perhaps because of, the heated arguments we have here, in the final analysis we appreciate the generally cheerful and tolerant atmosphere each of us helps to create on this forum.

I know that in many places on the net I would be, and indeed am, accosted for my beliefs and opinions; thankfully, this is not one of them, even though it is home to many who passionately disagree with me. I'm sure joe, gaius, M1EK, and other non-libertarians would agree with me on that.

[Jennifer]

I didn't make it clear that the place that the link points to is in the href="" part of the element, and the part between the and is what appears to the user, but otherwise has no bearing as to what page comes up when the link is clicked.

I know what these words mean as individuals, but I don't understand them taken as a group. Am I the only one who's clueless here?

[saw-whet]

High School? Those were my best pot smoking days! Back when an lb cost $100.

[jeffiek]

In between <a href=> and </a> is like what's in between <i> and </i>, they're what the web browser acts on.
<i> this </i> says "put this in italics"
<a href=> this </a> says "show this as a link"
where the link goes when you click on it is inside the <a> after the href=

[Jadagul]

Damnit, I got fed up with trying to make the evil squirrels in the server let my post through, and just put an explanation of linking, in response to Jennifer's question, on my blog. I hope Jennifer, and everyone else, finds it useful.

[Adam]

Remember Jabbar Gibson, the kid who grabbed the bus in New Orleans and loaded it up with folks and drove it to Houston, outperforming the city, state and federal governments in the process?

Well, they got that dangerous sonofabitch off the streets.

[thoreau]

Adam-

I hope the Reason staff pick up on that one and give it its own thread.

[Rick Barton]

saw-whet:

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

Dead Elvis. You and Jennifer didn't catch my grammatical error. 'Rick Barton and me', not I.

Regardless that you said "I" when you shoulda said "me", Kudos for being right from the start on the Iraq war! Opposition to this war seems to follow directly from libertarian principles.

[crimethink]

Ugh, I can't wait for the hero/heroin double entendre.

[Jennifer]

So when exactly did it become my responsibility to correct people's grammatical errors here?

[Jennifer]

Woo hoo! Jeff is finally home! Good night, everybody.

[saw-whet]

Hey, Rick Barton. You are cool in my book also.
Any more anti-war guys or gals here?

[thoreau]

I opposed it from early on. I think that in mid 2002 I was on the fence, but by fall of 2002 I had decided that I would oppose an invasion.

So I can't say that I was anti-war from the first moment that the proposal was floated, but I certainly opposed it by the time that it became a serious possibility.

[saw-whet]

Took another hit. Are we getting closer? To 500, I mean.

[jeffiek]

470 (and counting?)

I think I can, I think I can, I think I can ....

[Jemez Hobbit]

.. well, in celebration of freedom, I was forced to take a hit, too ..

.. America needs a few good outlaws ..

.. Happy Thanksgiving, all ..

.. Hobbit

[Jennifer]

Fuck it. Jeff's watching Columbo, so I'll help y'all make five hundred. Which topic shall we discuss: Iraq? Abortion? The Nature of Warfare? Or what a complete fucking travesty it is that I apparently can't compete with Peter Falk?

[dhex]

A Thanksgiving Prayer - W. S. Burroughs

"To John Dillinger and hope he is still alive. Thanksgiving Day November 28 1986"

Thanks for the wild turkey and the passenger pigeons, destined to be shat out through wholesome American guts.

Thanks for a continent to despoil and poison.

Thanks for Indians to provide a modicum of challenge and danger.

Thanks for vast herds of bison to kill and skin leaving the carcasses to rot.

Thanks for bounties on wolves and coyotes.

Thanks for the American dream, To vulgarize and to falsify until the bare lies shine through.

Thanks for the KKK.

For nigger-killin' lawmen, feelin' their notches.

For decent church-goin' women, with their mean, pinched, bitter, evil faces.

Thanks for "Kill a Queer for
Christ" stickers.

Thanks for laboratory AIDS.

Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs.

Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind the own business.

Thanks for a nation of finks.

Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!

You always were a headache and you always were a bore.

Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams.

[Jennifer]

Dhex, it is only going to get worse.

[jeffiek]

Don't feel bad. Not too many women can compete with Columbo.

Just watched 48 hours. Some poor schmuck got convicted of a murder committed 36 years ago. DNA evidence, nothing else. Guy has no record ( other than a problem with pain killers in ~2000 ). Married for almost 30 years with kids. Not a likely candidate for murder. DNA was not blood or semen, but police can't say what it was.

Could I have sneezed on some poor soul decades ago? Scary.

[Cliff]

Jen;

Jeff is a fricking nut. Jen or Columbo, Jen or Columbo....In my world you would win hands down, sorry Jeff.

[Jennifer]

Jeffiek--

I read of one case where it was DNA on a cigarette butt that got someone convicted. I'm sure someone has already been framed via DNA, though. Consider: the average person (who is NOT going bald) sheds about one hundred strands of hair a day. My hair is well over a foot long from roots to ends--that's over a hundred feet of DNA I shed out each and every day. But if a crime is committed and a single strand of my hair is found on the scene, that alone will be taken as evidence of my guilt.

[Jennifer]

Thanks, Cliff. Although I'll admit Columbo's probably better than I am when it comes to catching murderers.

[Pig Mannix]

How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?

Here!

[Pig Mannix]

Or what a complete fucking travesty it is that I apparently can't compete with Peter Falk?

Well, he does have the advantage of being dead.

Perhaps if you took a cold shower, and lay very, very still....

[Jennifer]

Okay, Pig Mannix, never mind.

Suddenly I want to take a shower. A long, long shower.

[Jennifer]

A hot cleansing shower, mind you, not a cold one.

[the helpful troll]

I think we should make a list of all the good things about torture.

Oh and the idea that monkeys evolved from fish - ridiculous I tell you, simply ridiculous.

[dead_elvis]

Thanks for the Burroughs. He has such a distinctive sound and rhythm to his voice, it's always fun to imagine him saying things, even things he didn't write or say.

I'm home from playing the Nutcracker for, by my rough calculation, the 75th time. Twice more tomorrow. It's never explicitly shown, but personally I think the Count gets Claire stoned out of her mind, there's no other way to explain the shit that goes on.

[raymond]

"but please remember that only inside voices will be tolerated!"
??? huh, I'm dense...

It's what passive kindergarten teachers tell their charges when they come back in from recess.
???????

Yesterday Amnesty had a stand dealing with violence against women. Specifically, conjugal violence.

Four or five of the little old ladies who were offered information replied: "Thank you, but I don't need it. My husband is dead."

What lives these poor women must have led.

[Rick Barton]

dead_elvis,

Whatcha play in the Nutcracker? A part or music?

Also, I just wanna say that, to the degree that we have it, I'm thankful for the economic freedom that's called capitalism. And I'm also thankful for our 1st Amendment rights that allow this blog to go on, protected from interference from the government.

[dead_elvis]

I'm not so glamorous, I'm one of the poor schlubs in the pit cranking out the music.

I should consider myself lucky. The people who play it 30 times a year, they don't even open their music after a while. I never fail to enjoy how great the music is, but you might imagine the jaded attitude some of the musicians have after so much repetition.

[Jadagul]

Dead_elvis: I'm curious; what instrument? I knew you were a musician, but I subconsciously had been thinking something a bit more contemporary than Nutcracker. (which isn't necessarily better. I'm preparing a Chopin piece right now, and taking a course on Rennaissance and early Baroque music).

[Super Prole]

489.

Now back to work.

[Jadagul]

Wow, we're actually gonna make it. And I'm gonna miss it, because if I'm up this late in Cali there's no way I'm beating our east-coasters up tomorrow morning. Drat.

Well, happy 500, y'all.

[Some crackhead hangin' at Dese]

Barstow's in the house!

[raymond]

It's the European contingent which is going to do this. Who knows. May even be a utopian.

[Some crackhead hangin' at Dese]

Not if I get my other crackhead buddies to start making really stupid posts like this one.

Naah. I won't ruin the sublime moment for whoever thinks being 500 is ... well, sublime.

[Tweaker in Bullhead City]

Give me liberty or give me meth

[Jemez Hobbit]

.. finally a dusting of snow overnite .. it will be gone by noon but at least we got a little moisture .. last rain we got was in September .. odd winter this year ..normally we get snow on both Hallowe'en and Thanksgiving .. sunny and bright for both this year ..

.. Hobbit in New Mexico

[saw-whet]

Sunday paper, a crab melt muffin and a slash of elderberry wine. 500?

[saw-whet]

Splash. jeez.

[server fairy]

I was going to offer the thought that it almost seems that no one wants to be the 500th poster. But then it occured to me: Everybody is waiting for the 499th and THEN they will crash the server! I'm right, aren't I? That's the plan, huh?

[jeffiek]

Not my plan. But we're about to find out

[500]

Uh oh...

[500]

Still here

[kwais]

jeffiek,
Is there a way to link a picture that you may have on your computer? Or do you have to link stuff that is on the web?

[jeffiek]

look here bennett4senate
I haven't touched the site in a while.

[jeffiek]

Ok. Appears I'm not to good at links. You'll have to cut and paste.

http://www.bennett4senate.org

[David C.]

**I'm thankful that I live in a country where torture is illegal
*(even though Cheney and Bush are doing their damnedest to change this**

They are, really? Alert me when they introduce legislation to make torture legal.

**I'm thankful that I live in a country that stopped countless human rights abuses far greater than the few incidents that occured during our management of Abu Ghraib
*(let's ignore the abuses still occurring, extraordinary rendition, and CIA secret prisons)**

Let's ignore and minimize every action by our enemies and focus in on and magnify every abuse by the U.S.; and let's ignore the fact that abuse of prisoners occurs in every war, and that the U.S. has a far better record in that area than most.

**I'm thankful that I live in a country that responds to a major attack with a relatively mild internal security measure like the Patriot Act, even if it does go too far in certain sections.
*(too fucking bad they didn't respond by attaching our attacker, rather than insist on maintaining the charade that the Saudis are our pals)**

Let's argue that attacking an open enemy like Iraq wasn't justified, but that attacking a pseudo-ally like Saudia Arabia would be.

**I'm thankful that I live in a country that has a wide range of first-rate weaponry and munitions, including white phosphorus
*(except white phosphorus is illegal to use as a weapon, and if Saddam had used it that would have been one of the cited "reasons" why we attacked him)**

Let's pretend that WP isn't an ordinary munition type that has been regularly used by the U.S. and others from WW2 on, and that you calling it "illegal" somehow makes it so. Let me guess, next a report will come out with the startling revelation that high explosive shells start fires, burn down houses, and happen to burn up little kids. Suddenly HE will be a horrible illegal weapon that the US is using against civilians, right?

[Ed]

Must-not-post...must...resist...

[saw-whet]

"Suddenly HE (high explosives) will be a horrible illegal weapon that the US is using against civilians, right?" David C.

We can only hope. You make some well reasoned points. I don't agree with you, but hey, that's what this site is all about.

I ask with all due respect, are you a Republican?
And more, who on this site has run for county legislature, other than me, that is?

Isn't the county level of government the Libertarian ideal? By the way, I vote Libertarian, Marijuana Party and Green, in that order. How do others here vote? 600.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

I am not anti-war. Warfare has its legitimate uses. The prosecution of warfare can always be improved of course.

[Jennifer]

David C, Cheney's opposition to proposed anti-torture bills has been all over the news of late. I won't be providing you a link to prove it for the same reason I wouldn't a link to someone insisting that I prove the Ronald Reagan is dead, or that Canada is due north of Minnesota. White phosphorus is an incendiary weapon which is not supposed to be used again areas with high concentrations of civilians, yet we used them in Fallujah among other places. And where the hell did you get the idea that focusing on abuses we commit is tantamount to "ignoring the abuses of our enemy?"

[saw-whet]

"The prosecution of warfare can always be improved of course." - Hakluyt.

No, no.. I wanted you to speak on Curtis LeMay's "Spindle" speach.

Where the hell is Ruthless.

[raymond]

Let's ignore and minimize every action by our enemies and focus in on and magnify every abuse by the U.S.

The sophomore's lament. "Why holler at me? John does it, too."

[kwais]

Hey is this over 500 deal a record?

Jen, I wrote an answer to you on this same topic on the other war/anti war thread.

Also, opposition to a torture bill is not the same as being for legalized torture. Come on now.

[Jennifer]

opposition to a torture bill is not the same as being for legalized torture.

Sure, Kwais. "I'm not pro-torture; I'm just opposed to a bill making torture illegal!"

[Twba]

... Canada is due north of Minnesota.

I'll link to proof that Canada is South of Angle Inlet, MN.

[Hakluyt]

saw-whet,

What do you want me to be write about it?

[Hakluyt]

Willy Pete sure does look cool. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

...which is not supposed to be used again areas with high concentrations of civilians...

No absolute rule like this applies to WP.

[saw-whet]

Are there any Europeans on this thread? I would like to hear your opinions. Don't worry, you won't be shrilled out by the anti-France/Europe rhetoric that describes my country these days.

Please excuse any misspellings. They aren't typo's, just a bad education. My fault.

[Jennifer]

Oooh, today's BBC has a fun article in which Allawi says abuses committed by the current Iraqi government are "as bad as in the Saddam era." But that's okay, right, guys? All that matters is that Saddam is gone. Being tortured is okay, so long as the orders come from a guy who is not surnamed "Hussein."

And thus vanishes the last pathetic rationalization for out going over there. No WMDs, no responsibility for 9-11, no freeing Iraqis from a murderous, torturous government. . . but we saw those photos of the purple fingers! What more do we need?

Let's see if Reason's obsessively paranoid anti-spam software will let me put the address here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4475030.stm

Quoth Mr. Allawi:
"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse," Mr Allawi told the newspaper. "It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam Hussein, and now we are seeing the same things."

Remember why we went to war: so Iraqis could enjoy the freedom of being tortured by someone other than Saddam Hussein.

[Jennifer]

Whoops. That last comment of mine went into the wrong thread.

[kwais]

Don't worry, you won't be shrilled out by the anti-France/Europe rhetoric that describes my country these days.

The hell you wont.

[Jamie]

Holy fuck, you people are still posting on this thread?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Any objective analysis of the current Iraqi government's problems don't permit one to make a conclusion that things are as bad as they were under Saddam's regime.

Allawi has an axe to grind and he has a reason to criticize the current government of Iraq - he is running for political office.

[kwais]

Allawi is a pretty cool guy. At least from what I know of him, and what Iraqi's say of him.

But that comment does not ring true.

perhaps he means the the five that are being mistreated really really badly, are being treated as badly or worse than the various hundred thousand guys that Saddam did.

Also that he says that and wants something done about it is a good indication that Iraq is moving in a better direction.

[Hakluyt]

kwais,

The gist of the article (Jennifer being the dishonest ass that she is won't tell you this) is that the U.S. needs to stay to see the process through. The sub-text of the article is that the best man for the job to help with that who is an Iraqi is Allawi.

[Hakluyt]

kwais,

I'd think we'd all agree that the abuses of human rights by the current Russian government are something to be disturbed by. I'd think that stating that they are as bad what was done under the regime of Stalin would be viewed as stupid and hysterical. Jennifer's spin on this article is equally hysterical.

[Jennifer]

Holy fuck, you people are still posting on this thread?

No. Whatever gave you that impression?

[Hakluyt]

Jamie,

We're going for the Hit n' Run version of the 99+ yard rush from scrimmage.

[kwais]

I don't think that Jen is dishonest, I do think that she has the blinders on sometimes though.

[Hakluyt]

kwais,

Heh. I see, so its a difference between dishonesty and being obtuse. 🙂

[Jennifer]

I don't think that Jen is dishonest, I do think that she has the blinders on sometimes though.

How so, Kwais? Considering the piles of lies the administration's been shoveling our way fron th ebeginning of this mess, I consider unbridled optimists to be the ones with blinders. Sometimes pessimism is realism.

[raymond]

She put up the link to the article. If she's trying to be dishonest, she's really really bad at it.

[Ellie]

I admit to a girl-crush on Jennifer, whom I find wonderfully ballsy.

Me too, poco. *sigh* She's dreeeamy ...

[Jennifer]

Poco, Ellie, you're making me blush.

[Hakluyt]

raymond,

If she's trying to be dishonest, she's really really bad at it.

If she were being honest about the article she would posted the numerous points in the article which actually undermine her position. In academic circles such use of citations would be viewed quite negatively.

Jennifer,

Considering the piles of lies the administration's been shoveling...

We always here this from the war detractors with no actual evidence of such.

[John (the IT guy)]

I have nothing useful to add, just wanted to up the post count before football starts today.

Have fun folks!

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer's slanted and one-side portrayal of the article is erroneous. Whether its because she is actively dishonesty or due to her being obtuse is something kwais wants to argue about.

[Jennifer]

Raymond--
You realize that whenever we do finally admit it's hopeless, and give up and go home, many people will insist it's the fault of people like you and me. You know, the same way it's Jane Fonda's fault we weren't successful in Vietnam.

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

The Saints might have a chance of winning today.

[jeffiek]

The gist of the article ... is that the U.S. needs to stay to see the process through. The sub-text of the article is that the best man for the job to help with that who is an Iraqi is Allawi.

I read the article. There's nothing there but the normal hot air of any politician. Good for floating balloons, but not much else. Sub-text? Was it in a white-on-white font?

[kwais]

I don't see too many unbridled optimists, and they indeed would have the blinders on. But unbrideled pessimists who can only see what confirms their belief also have the blinders on.

many people will have posted before this post goes through, because the electricity just went out another damned time, so it will be a while before the internet connection is back on line again.

So if it goes on again y'all will see this post. And afterwards I am going to bed. I have another early day tommorrow.

But I'd like to see this at 600 posts when I wake up.

[Hakluyt]

Jane Fonda neither inhibited the Viet Nam war effort nor enhanced. Her contribution was exactly what Jennifer's will be: nil.

[Hakluyt]

jeffiek,

There's nothing there but the normal hot air of any politician.

That's the most appropriate interpretation of the article. Jennifer would rather buy into shrill hot air.

[Hakluyt]

kwais,

I remain unconvinced that the war was necessary for the defense of the U.S. from terrorist swine, but we're there now and we've made the country our responsibility.

[Jennifer]

Here's an excerpt from another article in today's BBC:

Iraq's interior minister says reports of prisoners being tortured at an Iraqi-run centre have been exaggerated. Only a few of the 170 detainees at the Jadiriya centre in Baghdad appeared to have been maltreated, Bayan Jabr said. . . . .Mr Jabr acknowledged that several detainees had been mistreated - but despite an investigation now under way, he did not seem to know how many, our correspondent says.

See? Only a few people are being tortured. Well, we don't know exactly how many, but it's probably not much.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4445724.stm

[jeffiek]

Jennifer would rather buy into shrill hot air.

If she didn't she'd be perfect. I don't know if the world's ready for a perfect woman.

[Curious]

Does Hak have a crush on Jennifer, or did he forget to take his meds today?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Only a few people are being tortured.

Which deflates your earlier attempt to make the situation look as bad as it was under Hussein. Sorry, you're the one who was arguing irrational, hysterical equivalencies here, not us.

[Hakluyt]

Curious,

*yawn*

Well, at least you admit your particular cult of personality.

[jeffiek]

we're there now and we've made the country our responsibility.

Got it. The car-thief must keep up with the oil changes. Returning the car is not an option.

[Hakluyt]

Are you ready for some Habermas? I know I am. Cheers.

[Jennifer]

Jeffiek--

I opposed the war from the beginning, but I remember about a year or so ago posting that since we trashed the country, we owe it to the Iraqis to fix it before we leave. But I've long since reached the conclusion that this just isn't feasible--I think our presence is causing more instability than it could possibly prevent. Every day I read about car bombings and other attacks, yet I never hear of any actual progress. Sure, we'll hear that so-and-so city has been pacified, yet the number of bombings in said city never decreases.

[Jennifer]

Or to put it another way, at this point saying "We owe it to the Iraqis to fix their country before we leave" is about as feasible as saying "The man who killed my grandmother owes it to me to raise her from the dead."

[jeffiek]

I think something was lost in the translation.

The car-thief is responsible for damages. But he must return the car immediately and then pay for them. Hemming and hawwing, saying "you can have it back as soon as the shop is done with it" is unacceptable.

[saw-whet]

"The hell you wont."

What the...Kwais, you know better. And where are those Euopeans? Asians? Whomever.

[Curious]

Hak, when you said Jen took those quotes out of context, is that like the way you took her "only a few people are being tortured" comment out of context?

[dead_elvis]

Jadagul-

I play viola.

, and taking a course on Rennaissance and early Baroque music

[beavis and butthead]heh heh, the teacher just said Sackbutt. heh heh heh [/beavis and butthead]

[dead_elvis]

Resolved: The Nutcracker is a militaristic fantasy. The Mice are a legitimate resistance against the oppression of the czar, and not a terrorist guerilla insurgency. Had they won, Russia ruled under The Mice would have been preferable to the Bolsheviks and Communism. Discuss.

[Jennifer]

Had they won, Russia ruled under The Mice would have been preferable to the Bolsheviks and Communism. Discuss.

I don't know about that, but in hindsight, I've often thought the 20th century would have been much less bloody had we allowed Imperial Germany to take over Europe in World War One. There would have been no Nazi party, no Iron Curtain, and quite possibly none (well, far less) of our current problems in the Middle East.

Problem is, of course, there was absolutely no way a person alive during World War One could have possibly known any of this.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and also Africa might have been far less of a mess, in an alternate universe where a weaker Soviet Union wasn't able to export its crackpot economic theories to the continent, as it would be too busy worrying about the Imperial German European hegemon.

[dead_elvis]

Here's an interesting analysis of if the Germans had won WWI

"I would go so far as to say this: something very like the Nazi Party would still have come
to power in Germany, even if that country had won the First World War."

[saw-whet]

He came dancing across the water. Cortez, Cortez. What a killer.

Hope that gets our Spainish friends online.

[Eddy]

So are y'all going for 750 or trying for a nice round 1K?

[Cliff]

dead elvis;

"I would go so far as to say this: something very like the Nazi Party would still have come
to power in Germany, even if that country had won the First World War."

Who would've thunk it, it is my opinion that our very own neocons are preparing our great nation for the same thing the Germans went through.

1) Right now we are losing the jobs that people just out of high school could get into and make a good living at without college. for whatever reason, those jobs aren't coming back and the blue collared middle class is really shrinking.

2) Our country has imperial intent on the world and has pissed off those that we attack, liberate or help to kill by selling weapons willy nilly world wide. (great name for a company, Willy Nilly World Wide Weaponry)

3) Our veterans are getting shafted after being injured in the line of duty. Veteran benefits are getting cut and those in power wonder why no one wants to join now. The all volunteer army is great during peace time, so many sunshine patriots to filled the ranks, but when the bullets fly, not so many people are signing up.

4) America is in debt to its eyeballs to the Chinese. When that marker is called, it could collapse our economy.

5) We are going in to perpetual war mode, just like 1984.

6) Politicians think we need a Czar for everything.

7) PATRIOT Act.

.....

Many people say that what happened in Germany can't happen here. The Germans are considered some of the most intelligent people in the world, hell look at all of the great thinkers and inventions that came from there. I say when people have it bad enough and are willing to sell out for whatever the going price is for survival, health care, that new car, etc. Everyone has a price and a comfort level and will give up liberty to get it. For these and many other reasons, I say we are neofascist and sliding fast to true fascism.

One final thought, I am truly thankful for America and what we have left of our freedoms and for all you guys, agree or disagree, troll or true patriot, everyone here at Hit and Run are the best. Sorry for the long post.

[Jennifer]

I think you are right, Cliff. And ironically, all the great "warning" novels of the past, like Orwell's 1984 or Lewis' It Can't Happen Here, do not serve as warnings but as reassurances--I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say things like "Don't compare this to 1984--1984 was MUCH worse!" To which I want to respond "No kidding, fuckhead, but by the time we're truly as bad as Oceania it'll be too late to do anything."

Do these people really think Orwell's point was "So long as it's not as bad as this, there's no need to worry?" Of course, many of these are the same fools who brush away complaints of American abuses with "Yeah, well, Castro and Kim Jong Il are worse." As if "being less evil that Castro" is all you need to do to be considered decent.

[Jennifer]

By the way, Cliff, who do you think will be our Jew-equivalent--Muslims, Arabs or Hispanics (illegal immigrants)? I think it's a toss-up right now.

But if I were Julian Sanchez, I would dye my hair blond and change my name to something nice and WASPy, like "Julian Worthington Huffington Chadwick IV." Just in case.

[Cliff]

Jennifer;

I agree, I would say that Orwell wrote 1984 as a warning, not as a compare and contrast. I try to talk to freinds about these things, but they are not worried about it and I come off sounding like a conspiracy theorist to them. I am the resident Libertarian, that is an invitation to ridicule, but I wear it as a badge of honor. I am glad that others, like you, see the warning signs and don't just yawn and turn on the TV or wonder about really insignificant things like sports stats.

I guess the next question is, when or how will the electorate figure it out. My lucky 8 ball says they won't till it is too late and I'm sorry I have to take that ride to hell with them.

[Cliff]

Jen;

I think that the drug users are the new Jew equivalent and I have read some interesting areticles on the web to that effect.

[saw-whet]

I can't barf fast enough. Thanks for the thought, Cliff.

"Everyone has a price and a comfort level and will give up liberty to get it."

[Jennifer]

Cliff--

You're probably right about the drug users. And also right that people won't admit there's a problem until it's too late.

One day at work, when things were very slow, I went trawling through the Hit and Run archives and was disappointed to see that many of the old comments have disappeared (presumably from a server malfunction). Which is a shame. I really hope that these are all saved for the benefit of future historians, so they can read the words of all these self-professed libertarian lovers of freedom who argue in favor of decreased civil liberties and increased government power. Maybe our example will help prevent the NEXT descent into fascism--but I doubt it.

[Hakluyt]

jeffiek,

Your analogy is rather imperfect at best. We didn't invade Iraq to steal the country after all. You people are always back to the "we invaded Iraq to take their oil" non-sense.

curious,

I didn't take her statement out of context. She fisked herself and I pointed this out.

jennifer,

I've often thought the 20th century would have been much less bloody had we allowed Imperial Germany to take over Europe in World War One.

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Europeans that the Germans put into slave camps in WWI.

If you were to study the post-war plans of Imperial Germany you'd note that newly conquered areas of Belgium and France were not to be treated with any kindness.

...(well, far less) of our current problems in the Middle East.

We'd have lots of problems with the Middle East. An Allied loss would mean a destroyed Russia and a propped up Ottoman Empire and even more conflict between the British and German empires in the region than already existed. Do you know nothing about WWI?

[Hakluyt]

Indeed, an Allied loss in WWI would mean a "Great Game" on steroids, as the Soviets would have (as they did in 1918) would have continued to fall into the orbit of Germans, the Ottomans would have a powerful ally in the Germans and a means to harrass the British Empire, and the British Empire would have felt compelled to defend Egypt, India, etc. I can only imagine what sort of nightmare scenario that would have brought about.

Jennifer, your ignorant pontificating really knows no bounds.

[io1029]

Jennifer:
I'd be much more worried about attacks along religious boundaries rather than race.

Nobody plays the insecure-hate-all-things-not-us quite like a religious majority.

So Mr. Sanchrez should really just convert to Protestant, or whatever the prevailing tide is. Maybe just "Christian" would be good enough to pass revue.

[Pig Mannix]

Our country has imperial intent on the world and has pissed off those that we attack, liberate or help to kill by selling weapons willy nilly world wide. (great name for a company, Willy Nilly World Wide Weaponry)

http://drama.eserver.org/plays/modern/major-barbara/index_html

[Jennifer]

io1029--

Yes, actually, as soon as I made that post it hit me: it porbably won't be a race-baed thing. But it will be vile, nonetheless.

I just wonder how much longer it will be.

[Hakluyt]

Heh. The Jennifer and gaius marius nexus.

[Jennifer]

Since we've moved on to depressing topics anyway, it's perfect synchronicity that I went digging through an old box and found the very first mix CD I ever burned, some five or so years ago. Wow! I'd forgotten what a hardcore Goth I was back then! And the overcast gray sky outside my window is just gravy.

"Feeling much better I wrote her a letter, better forget it you said. You know how it went but I never did send it's just spinning around in my head."

[Hakluyt]

Following WWI the Germans planned on creating a police state based on forced labor for its newly conquered territories. One can only imagine how terrible the conditions would have been in its new territories in Eastern Europe, given the prevailing German attitudes towards Slavs, etc. at the time.

[Jadagul]

Dead_Elvis, sackbutts are cool and all, but our favorite is the shawm. I don't think anyone beat the shawm for sheer loudness and annoyingness until the development of heavy metal. I could be forgetting something, though.

[Pig Mannix]

Jennifer, your ignorant pontificating really knows no bounds.

Winston Churchill also advanced the idea that, had America not entered WWI, the war would have ended in essentially a stalemate, and Hitler wouldn't have come to power.

At least Jennifer is ignorantly potificating in good company.

http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-churchill.html

[Hakluyt]

Cliff,

The Germans are considered some of the most intelligent people in the world, hell look at all of the great thinkers and inventions that came from there.

Intelligence has very little to do with whether one views all of humanity being part of one's moral universe. The Germans in WWI willingly invade a neutral nation (Belgium) in order to attack another nation (France) as a means to knock out the latter so that the Germans could then finish off the Russians, whose empire the Germans wanted to dismember because they were (a) paranoid about the rise of Russia as a great power, (b) wanted to use Russian land and people to further the ends of the German empire while at the same time not enveloping those people into their moral universe, and (c) so they could more adequately compete with the British Empire and find their "rightful" place among nations.

[Curious]

Jen why does Hak hate you so much? Did you kill his mother?

[Hakluyt]

Pig Mannix,

I am well aware of his opinion on the matter (as well as Niall Ferguson's - the next person you will trot out I am sure) and he is flat-wrong.

Imagine an aggressive German imperial state controlling ports across the channel from Britain which had just defeated France and Britain in war. Such was a recipe for more warfare between Britain and Germany, not less. Indeed, can you think of a time since the middle ages when a major European power controlled that much of Europe, and especially those cross-channel ports when the British (English) didn't go to war over the matter? Be it the Spanish, the French, or whomever controlled them?

Add to that a newly bolstered Ottoman Empire sitting between British Egypt and India, maintaining India being one of the primary concerns of Churchill throughout most of political career right up to Indian independence.

No, the problem for Churchill is that neither he nor Ferguson have thought through the issue very well. Jennifer has never thought through the issue and wouldn't have the resources to do it anyway.

[Hakluyt]

Curious,

Heh. I treat her like I treat any uneducated buffoon.

[Hakluyt]

It never ceases to amaze me that Jennifer and her ilk would reward the actions of an aggressive, violent power (bent on conquest so as to appropriate by force people as slaves and the resources of those people) as a means to appease it.

Stopping the Germans in WWI was the best option. That people fell down on the job prior to WWII does not take away from the worth of WWI as a war fought to stop Germany from destroying what existed of liberal society in Europe.

[jeffiek]

Jennifer:

Of course it won't be race based, or religion based either. Those categories have already been worn out.

What's next?
Light up and you'll find out.

[Jennifer]

Jeffiek--

Fortunetelling is hardly an exact science (!), but another possibility occurred to me--not drug users but The Poor. Cliff (I think it was Cliff, but I don't feel like scrolling up to check) already pointed out things like the fact that blue-collar jobs are disappearing. But this country more and more has the idea that if you are poor it is entirely your fault--an intellectual or moral failing of yours.

Now, certainly, there are many individuals for whom this is absolutely true. But not all of them. And the more poverty and hopelessness there is in a country, the easier it is for insane philosophies to take root.

I grew up in the white-trash part of the South, and if you wanted to find members of the KKK you didn't go to the nice neighborhoods; you went to the trailer parks and the shotgun shacks and the areas where people were not only poor but hopelessly poor--people convinced that what they had now was all they would ever have.

[Hakluyt]

Yes, in the U.S., poverty is increasing per capita - NOT!

Jennifer is the kind of person who would defend subsidies for buggy-whip factories as a means to "protect" buggy-whip workers. Oh no, blue collar jobs are "disappearing" - no other kind of work exists for these people apparently (if we take the claim as correct for sake of argument) and never will.

...that if you are poor it is entirely your fault...

All one need do is read Twain or de Tocqueville to figure out that has been the typical attitude of Americans for our nation's history.

[The Peanut Gallery]

Hakluyt is the kind of person who would accuse Jennifer of defending subsidies for buggy-whip factors as a means to bait her.

[Solitudinarian]

Not that I necessarily mind the insults and backbiting (par for the course, really), but maybe we could to return to the Thread of Niceness concept as we approach the 500-post mark.

[Jennifer]

No, Solitude, complimentary circle-jerks are boring. I've actually been having some interesting discussions with people here.

[Jadagul]

600-post mark, Solitudinarian. We passed 500 sometime during the night and this will be post 592.

And Solitudinarian is a cool guy for suggesting that 😉

[Jennifer]

No, Jada! No! No!

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

Heh. You probably mean 600.

As to niceness, well Jennifer would have to deserve it first.

[jeffiek]

Yes, in the U.S., poverty is increasing per capita - NOT!

There we go with the funky statistics again.
20 people go from $40k to $20k and one person goes from $1mil to $2mil. The per capita goes up and Hakluyt is happy.

I don't know what the real stats are. No one does.

I don't defend the loss of buggy-whip workers, no job should be "protected". I just wonder where the new jobs will be. They're not in engineering. Health care? Just the low-paying ones. Surgury is already being exported. Law? Who has the money to pay the fees? And lawyers don't create wealth, they just move it around.

Glad it's not my problem. Scared that it's my son's and grandson's.

[Solitudinarian]

Jadagul,

You're right, it's the 600-post mark. All of this interstate commerce and Cocteau Twins must be clouding my mind.

Jennifer,

I'm not saying we compliment for 50 posts straight, just until we pass the hump. Or do you prefer the "Jennifer, you ignorant slut" comments passing for intelligent discourse right now?

[Jennifer]

Of course it won't be race based, or religion based either. Those categories have already been worn out.

It occurred to me that this may not be the case. Right now they seem worn out in the US, but such vile things are always capable of making a comeback. Look at all the ethnic cleansings in Africa and Europe--and this among people who resemble each other far more than Americans do.

Racism is the Freddy Krueger of the human spirit--kill him off all you want, he can always be brought back if there's a buck to be made from it.

[Jennifer]

Solitude, the ignorant slut comments reveal more about the commenter than me. I am unconcerned.

[jeffiek]

Ok. I'll bite.

Hakluyt has an above average concept of international affairs.

[raymond]

I wonder who'll post #666.

[Solitudinarian]

Solitude, the ignorant slut comments reveal more about the commenter than me.

Aye, true enough.

Racism is the Freddy Krueger of the human spirit--kill him off all you want, he can always be brought back if there's a buck to be made from it.

At the risk of quoting Rand, she once said that racism is the most primitive form of collectivism. So apparently, eliminate the latter and you solve the problem of the former.

[Jennifer]

At the risk of quoting Rand, she once said that racism is the most primitive form of collectivism. So apparently, eliminate the latter and you solve the problem of the former.

I disagree. Racism is another one of those nasty inborn things that we have to fight to overcome. We evolved to distrust the different--I'm referring back to a conversation Thoreau, I and others had a few hundred posts ago on this thread--and while we are capable of being educated enough to overcome our nasty instincts, they can always be brought back.

[raymond]

We evolved to distrust the different

I agree with that. However, I think we have to be taught just what the "different" is.

[Solitudinarian]

We evolved to distrust the different

Different than what or whom? Different than me or different than us?

[Jennifer]

Raymond and Solitude--

Those different from "I."

Here's a fun lab experiment: Did you know that the sweat of somebody from a different race will smell more pungent--and unpleasant--than the sweat of someone more closely related to you? No matter how educated and intelligent and non-racist you are.

This is a hangover from our less-evolved (pre-homo sapien) days, when our sense of smell was more important than it is now. Smell is how animals identify friends from foes--if you take a baby rat out of its nest, rub it with the scent of an unrelated rat, and thenm return it to its nest, its family members will kill it.

And the smell is just one example.

[Solitudinarian]

Did you know that the sweat of somebody from a different race will smell more pungent--and unpleasant--than the sweat of someone more closely related to you? No matter how educated and intelligent and non-racist you are.

Now this is interesting. I distinctly remember a BBC report that alleged the closer two people are, in terms of potential inbreeding, the worse they seem to smell to one another.

[Hakluyt]

jeffiek,

There we go with the funky statistics again.

Per capita income is a good proxy for determining the economic health of a society. I never claimed that it was a perfect one.

I just wonder where the new jobs will be.

Every generation wonders about that. I don't. Study human history long enough and you see patterns, some of those patterns include acute sociological crises over what the future entails when the future tends to work itself out if people don't screw with it too much vua government mandates. Hayek and Bastiat have taught us that government intervention cripples future innovation by making non-diverse demands and decisions.

Ok. I'll bite.

Bite what?

Jenifer,

It be interesting if I called you a slut. Of course, I didn't. There goes Jennifer again, fabricating.

[Troll Patrol]

Jenifer, It be interesting if I called you a slut. Of course, I didn't. There goes Jennifer again, fabricating.

It was Solitudinarian who made the ignorant slut comment, Hakluyt. There you go again, lashing out at Jennifer.

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

Jennifer is wrong. She's referring to differences based on differences in diet peculiar to particular ethnic, etc. groups.

[The Peanut Gallery]

No matter the topic, Hakluyt knows more than the rest of us.

[Jennifer]

Now this is interesting. I distinctly remember a BBC report that alleged the closer two people are, in terms of potential inbreeding, the worse they seem to smell to one another.

I seem to have a vague memory of this as well. But didn't it only apply to people like sibling-groups or parent-child pairings, where defective babies would be almost guaranteed?

Otherwise, the "My family good; everyone else bad" rule still applies.

(Incidentally, Discover magazine did an article once, discussing the fact that while sibling or parent-child inbreeding is certainly a recipe for disaster, intermarriage among cousins is not and can even confer benefits. But I"m still staying the hell away from my redneck cousins. Eeeeew.)

[Jennifer]

I remember in his book about Japan, Dave Barry mentioned that when he would ride on public transportation, the ordinarily polite Japanese would often get up and move away from him because they didn't like his smell. And yes, he did take plenty of baths while he was there.

[Solitudinarian]

There goes Jennifer again, fabricating.

No, that was me. Hakluyt, instead of listing your various inappropriate comments to and about Jennifer, I simply condensed them into "Jennifer, you ignorant slut" - a reference to the old Point-Counterpoint skit on SNL.

[Hakluyt]

Troll Patrol,

Hey, I don't read everyone's posts. No matter who started it, Jennifer clearly intimated that it was I who called her a slut. I have no evidence of Jennifer's sexual appetites, but I do have plenty of evidence of her ignorance (see the many erroneous claims she's made above).

[Troll Patrol]

Hakluyt, I suggest you watch old episodes of Saturday Night Live before you embarrass yourself further.

[Solitudinarian]

I seem to have a vague memory of this as well. But didn't it only apply to people like sibling-groups or parent-child pairings, where defective babies would be almost guaranteed?

Not just. I believe they took a random sample of the London population, tested the "pong" factor and then followed by analyzing some sort of genetic marker in blood samples.

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery,

Don't be jealous. 🙂

Solitudinarian,

So? The skit has nothing to do with my statements. Jennifer is clearly ignorant of a whole host of areas she likes to comment on. That I point out this verity is no mark against me.

Jennifer,

They didn't like his smell because he has a radically different diet from your average Japanese person. Do point us to the research on this so-called "race scent" gene please.

[Jennifer]

they took a random sample of the London population, tested the "pong" factor and then followed by analyzing some sort of genetic marker in blood samples.

Hmm. That IS interesting. So people stink if they're too closely related, and they stink if they're not related enough. . . well, this just proves the truth of what I've said many times before: "I'm glad I've lost my sense of smell, because the whole world stinks!"

[Hakluyt]

That you people take some of Jennifer's outlandish comments seriously is quite amusing indeed.

Troll Patrol,

*yawn*

Oooh. A year old joke about something I never wrote. Boring.

[Solitudinarian]

"I'm glad I've lost my sense of smell, because the whole world stinks!"

Best go back to smoking again then. Nothing makes your surroundings smell better than a smoke-deadened nose.

[Jennifer]

No, no, Solitude, my sense of smell has nothing to do with smoking or not. I lost my sense of smell on Easter Sunday when I was eight years old, long before I ever touched a cigarette.

[biologist]

there have been studies showing that people are more likely to be attracted to people with different major histocompatibility complexes, which are cell surface markers used to recognize self and are important in transplant rejection and disease resistance.

[Solitudinarian]

I lost my sense of smell on Easter Sunday when I was eight years old, long before I ever touched a cigarette.

Jesus H. Christ. Have you lost your sense of smell completely? That must be horrible.

[Jennifer]

Biologist and Solitude--

The Lucifer Principle has a nice layman's-terms background description of this, if I recall correctly. Though you, Biologist, may well be already way beyond that point, knowledge-wise.

[thoreau]

We'll definitely top 700 posts. Whether or not we reach 800 depends on what threads get started tomorrow.

[Solitudinarian]

there have been studies showing that people are more likely to be attracted to people with different major histocompatibility complexes, which are cell surface markers used to recognize self and are important in transplant rejection and disease resistance.

Is the attraction determined by scent?

[Hakluyt]

Soluditarian,

Races (especially as the laymen understands the term) simply don't exist as genetic groups. Jennifer claims (at least it would be necessary for her to do so as part of her argument) that they do. In all honesty, you are better off ignoring the general abstraction of race and concentrating on actual differences between human groups that are generally not indicated by phenotypic differences. Phenotype being the way race is most often defined.

[Jennifer]

Have you lost your sense of smell completely? That must be horrible.

Almost completely. I can smell things if they are VERY strong. I can smell coffee brewing, but I have to stick my nose practically in the pot. And a couple of years ago, when I was at work, standing outside and taking a cigarette break, I was completely oblivious to the fact that a huge amount of gas had been spilled into the little stream just a few dozen yards away. Here come the HAZMAT people, all of my colleagues are crinkling their noses and making horrible faces when they went outside--and when I told them I couldn;t smell a thing they were incredulous.

[Hakluyt]

biologist,

I assume you've read the work on human pheromones, ruight?

[jeffiek]

Hayek and Bastiat have taught

Tell me something I don't know. Like how to get our government to quit mucking around with our economy before that sociological crisis involves turning the US into a third world economy.

I'd love to be wrong, but there are dark clouds hovering.

Those good-paying US jobs that I can't predict ( and I make no assertions that they don't exist ) require capital. The very same capital that our consumer society is pissing away by the bucketful.
If they didn't require capital anyone, anywhere, in the world could create them.

Only problem is that my son and grandson aren't anywhere in the world. They're here.

[Jennifer]

We'll definitely top 700 posts.

Naturally, Thoreau. The thread offering the most freedom will get the most responses. And if you were a real libertarian you'd know that, too!

[The Peanut Gallery]

Jealous?

Anybody can go find an article that contradicts somebody else's point. Anybody can recite what somebody else figured out.

[jeffiek]

Is the attraction determined by scent?

The most passionate love of my life was also the only one whose smell was distinct (pleasingly so).

[biologist]

and, I neglected to say, this corresponds to tests of attractiveness based on olfaction, perhaps in the broadest sense, since there may not be any overt odor, people might be detecting differences by the vomeronasal organ, a pathway related to olfaction. The organ itself isn't present in humans, but nerve activity in the area has been detected. the vomeronasal organ is known as the Jacobsen's organ in reptiles, and is a blind pit in the root of the mouth used for airborne chemosensory detection.

[Solitudinarian]

the vomeronasal organ is known as the Jacobsen's organ in reptiles, and is a blind pit in the root of the mouth used for airborne chemosensory detection.

Is that similar to what cats use when they flehmen?

[Solitudinarian]

And what I use when I drink single malt?

[biologist]

Hakluyt, no I haven't read the studies on human pheromones, except the little that has appeared in the popular press. It's not really my area.

Jennifer, thanks for the book reference and the compliment, I'll try to check it (the book) out someday.

If we want the thread to top 1000, we could start a discussion of evolutionary biology (assuming this topic hasn't already been covered - I haven't ready the whole thread).

[Jennifer]

You're quite welcome, Biologist, though I meant it more as a "blindingly obvious fact" than a "compliment." But then again, the best compliments are the ones which the recipient knows to be true, huh?

[Jennifer]

Forgot to add, Biologist--I doubt The Lucifer Principle could teach you anything you didn't already know about biochemistry, but I think you would find it a fascinating read anyway. If I had to summarize the book in a single sentence I would say "Speculations on the evolutionary origins of evil."

[biologist]

ready (sic) = read

Flehmen response

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery,

Anybody can go find an article that contradicts somebody else's point. Anybody can recite what somebody else figured out.

That's not what I do of course - I've never read any work which, for example, takes issue with Churchill's claims or Ferguson's - my assessment of such claims is based on my own extesnive research on the matter prompted by Churchill's remarks.

Nor did have I ever read anyone's assessment of the German post-WWI plans; I knew they existed because they've been mentioned by historians in passing. As far as I know, no one has ever dealt with this very fruitful field in any systematic sense. I've read portions of the plans myself and came to my own conclusion on the matter.

I have my own fields of research which I have done a lot of primary work in, one of which includes "Great Game" politics in the 19th century and how they collapsed in WWI and another concerning how the Germans dealt with captured civilian populations and lands in WWI. Another concerns post-emancipatory regimes in the New World - particularly Jamaica, Barbados, Haiti and black belt Alabama. That Jennifer happened to make some very dimwitted remarks regarding some areas that I have some expertise in is not my fault.

[biologist]

wow, I really know how to shut down a thread.

actually, Jennifer I know very little about biochemistry.

[The Peanut Gallery]

Don't worry, biologist, Hakluyt can tutor you on biochemistry.

Or anything else that you don't know about.

[Jennifer]

wow, I really know how to shut down a thread.

(Reassuring shoulder pats.) There, there, dear. Everybody commits a blunder from time to time. But admitting and recognizing that one has been behaving improperly is far preferable to insisting that the problem lies with the whole rest of the world, not you. (Reassuring shoulder pats.)

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery,

BTW, this isn't the first time I've discussed the whole Germany winning WWII issue here either. This is perhaps sixth time or more that I've had to rally against the concept. Now, if you have something substantive to write, then do so. Otherwise shut up.

biologist,

Its fairly interesting stuff. A woman named McClintock out of Chicago (I've always wondered if she was related to Barbara McClintock but never bothered to look it up) has done the most promising research. More fodder for sci-fi writers certainly. Some of the more interesting X-Files episodes dealt with concept of human pheromones.

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery/joe/thoreau/the other assholes in your group,

I'm fairly certain that I can't tutor him on biochemistry. My wife might be able too though. Despite your claims, there are many, many topic areas that I never touch here because I know nothing about them. I stick to what I do have some knowledge of: some periods and are subjects in history, the law (of the American and French variety largely), and continental philosophy. Is there anything else you'd like to fabricate about me? Or is your inability to discuss anything of substance a sign of your total lack of intellectual rigor?

[biologist]

the U-Chi McClintock showed up quickly in my perusing of wikipedia links on flehmen, vomeronasal organ, and human pheromones. I would like to read (and discuss) more, but I'm supposed to be writing a test, grading, etc.

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery,

Indeed, I don't discuss things which I don't some familiarity with. Jennifer, because's the truly arrogant twit, does.

[Hakluyt]

biologist,

She's likely the authority in the field (I could be mistaken about that). There have been some articles about her and human pheromones in general in Science News.

[thoreau]

I vaguely recall a radio station in LA (Star 98.7) including human pheromones (for the purpose of attracting a mate) in their standard gift package for contest winners about 8 years ago.

My recollection could be faulty, or maybe I'm right but the pheromones were useless. I never won any of their contests, so I never got to answer either question first hand.

For the record, I prefer KROQ over 98.7.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau-
Some perfume companies have in the past (and maybe still do) put pheromones in their products, but there's no sign any of those work, either. Penn and Teller did a "Bullshit" episode on that.

And it just occurred to me: what if someone somehow DID make a successful pheromone perfume? Think of the implications of that, ethical AND legal! That is an interesting Libertarian conundrum: assuming such a product exists, does a person have the right to wear a perfume which makes members of the opposite sex involuntarily feel things they ordinarily would not feel?

[thoreau]

Very good question, Jennifer. For instance, I think (hope?) that everybody here would agree that slipping a sleeping pill into somebody's drink and then having sex with the comatose person is immoral/unethical/insert-preferred-term-here (gotta be careful with phrasing on these philosophical issues).

But what if the drug is administered by scent, and the effect is more subtle?

Before somebody accuses me of saying "There oughta be a law!", let me assure you that I'm not calling for that. I'm just wondering how far you can go with pharmacological manipulations before you enter the clear-cut territory of slipping the sleeping pill.

Fortunately, it seems unlikely that any scents currently available have an effect strong enough to put us in that territory. So for now this is just hypothetical.

[biologist]

Jennifer, you might be interested to know a common ingredient in many perfumes is the scrapings of the anal sacs of a civit, reportedly very painful for the animal.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

It was a gimmick. I suspect even the foremost researchers in the area couldn't create a pheromone kit of much efficacy.

[Hakluyt]

civic,

The "beauty" industry is full of a lot of bullshit.

[Jennifer]

Aaugh, Biologist! Well, I don't wear perfume anyway (since my lack of scent sense means I could too easily wear enough to knock people unconscious, without even realizing it).

What did you think of my hypothetical, by the way?

[biologist]

oops, it's spelled civet, not civit

Jennifer, is it any more unethical than attempting to make another's biology respond by wearing sexy clothes or driving an expensive car? Inducing feelings in another isn't unethical, it's a natural strategy. If making another feel something was unethical, many on here would be guilty of pissing off Hakluyt, and he would be guilty of pissing off many. it crosses the line when the ability to make choices freely is infringed upon, as in the use of rufinol (sp?). Now, all we have to do is argue about where the line should be drawn, or whether humans in fact have free will at all or if we're merely at the mercy of the interaction between our genes and their response to the environment

[Jadagul]

Thoreau/Jennifer: maybe it would be a quantity thing? I mean, assuming we can process human pheromones implies that they exist in nature. If a woman has a high natural pheromone count, does that make all sex she has rape? Even worse, suppose someone made a pheromone-perfume and we declared that its use was effectively rape-it means the guy has no choice. Then what happens if a guy rapes the woman? We've already said that the perfume makes the woman literally irresistable; that's what's implied by making its use rape. And that gets us dangerously, scarily close to the whole "she was asking for it" deal, especially combined with the first question. Do we really want a society where "her pheromone count was too high to resist" is a legitimate rape defense?

Also, I feel like this perfume would be a difference in degree, not kind, from what people already do. I mean, when I'm hitting on a girl I do things that are intended to make her more attracted to me; there are even guys who think they have methods that do, literally and in fact, almost make them irresistable. Can we pass laws banning crazy pickup tactics? I don't think so. I understand the worry y'all have, and it concerns me too. But I'd be careful before I started saying some technique or other makes guys or women irresistable, and thus should be regulated; seems like a precedent that could have long-reaching and unfortunate effects.

That's not to say, of course, that the use of such a perfume might not be sleazy and extremely disapproved of. Personally, if someone came up with a perfume like that, I might be extremely careful in certain situations, especially if I were rich and/or a celebrity.

[thoreau]

Jadagul-

You raise many good points. That's why I'm wary of putting even the most advanced futuristic perfume in the same category as a sleeping pill.

[Jennifer]

is [successful pheromone perfume] any more unethical than attempting to make another's biology respond by wearing sexy clothes or driving an expensive car? Inducing feelings in another isn't unethical, it's a natural strategy.

Well, I suppose the issue of how much control someone has over who they're attracted to is a whole separate topic, but--I'm not sure offhand how to put this. There IS a difference between dressing in sexy clothes in an attempt to attract a man, versus using a chemical substance to induce feelings of arousal in a man.

It's the same difference between me telling a really funny, can't-stop-laughing joke, versus me filling a room with laughing gas. The latter is and should be a crime; the former is not.

[Jennifer]

But I'd be careful before I started saying some technique or other makes guys or women irresistable

Oh, definitely there would be great dangers no matter how the law approached this. But I am not talking about a technique but a chemical substance. I already made the analogy between jokes and laughing gas; I could also do a comparison between sleeping pills versus just being really boring.

Wait, I think I just got it! In the case of a funny joke, an attractive/charming person or a complete bore, it is ultimately YOU, or at least your own tastes and preferences, which determines your reaction. As opposed to laughing gas, sleeping pills, and my hypothetical sex perfume, which, if you do not consent to taking them, amount to actual physical assaults on your body.

[Eryk Boston]

As I am completely irresistable to women, is it legal for me exist?

[Jennifer]

As I am completely irresistable to women, is it legal for me exist?

No, and if you keep flaunting yourself here you're going to get in trouble.

[biologist]

so the green Orion slave girls on Star Trek are guilty of raping the men they seduce with their pheromones?

[thoreau]

666! (I hope)

[Eryk Boston]

OK, I'm joking but I think this thread stopped being serious around post #16

[Hakluyt]

biologist,

Not to mention the women who heal men with vibrating roots! 🙂

[Jennifer]

Of course you made the first 666 in Hit and Run history, Thoreau. My Sunday-School teachers always told me the Antichrist would be a Papist.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

If you are serious, why #16?

[Eryk Boston]

Random number but you must agree that a lot of the entries have been filler to pump up the thread number.

[Jadagul]

First, let me say that I agree with you at least in part-I'm quite uncomfortable with magic sex perfume-but let's think about one issue, then. If someone creates a perfume with processed human pheromones, then that implies there are natural human pheromones as well. What if I had an unnaturally high pheromone level (unfortunately, if anything, it seems that mine are unnaturally low)? Can we regulate pheromone levels and require those with high pheromone counts to take pheromone-suppressing drugs? What if there's some diet that artificially raises pheromone counts? Can we regulate that?

I've heard at least one person (a biochemist posting on Volokh on National Kissing Day) argue that a significant amount of interpersonal attraction is goverened by pheromones-that, for instance, they're largely responsible for the pleasure from kissing. I'm not really sure how you can regulate that without screwing a whole bunch of other stuff up. I mean, as Biologist says, you'd have to set a threshold; I'm just worried about what that threshold would do and where it would go.

[biologist]

Jennifer, I think the point I was trying to get to was the difference between making others feel a certain way versus taking away their freedom to choose their actions. Even if pheromones do exist, they are probably only capable of the former, but not the latter.

[Hakluyt]

Jadagul,

Can we regulate pheromone levels and require those with high pheromone counts to take pheromone-suppressing drugs?

Don't give the liberals and conservatives any ideas.

[Jennifer]

I'm not really sure how you can regulate that without screwing a whole bunch of other stuff up. I mean, as Biologist says, you'd have to set a threshold; I'm just worried about what that threshold would do and where it would go.

I don't know either. I'm just trying to imagine what the societal effects would be, if there were some substance GUARANTEED to cause sexual arousal in anyone (or at least any physical adult) who gets a whiff of it.

[biologist]

Hakluyt:

I don't recall that episode. Would you elaborate?

[jeffiek]

Of course, we'll have to segregate the high-pherome producers in separate (but equal) classrooms. They can't be trusted not to corrupt our children.

[Jadagul]

Hakluyt, that's what I was afraid of.

On the other hand, if we do this, I could probably apply for a permit to get into a program for those who are disadvantages by unusually low pheromone counts (not that I know I have bad pheromones, but let's play along). You'd have a disease called sad-sack-syndrome, and its sufferers could get pheromone supplements as a treatment. Of course, we'd have to severely crack down on the black market pheromone trade; we'd have DEA agents in various bars with handheld chemical sensors to make sure there was noone with an elevated pheromone count running around. Of course, they'd also have to get up close and personal with those they suspected of having high pheromone levels; since attractiveness is a function of pheromones, all the really stunning, seductive girls would have to get pulled over and thoroughly searched to make sure they're not hiding pheromone-enhancers. I know searching them will be a rough job, but I get we can get a few guys from the DEA who are willing to do it.

Also, once society realizes that my inability to get laid is just a physical problem, stemming from my pheromones, and isn't my fault, I could sue under the ADA. Some girl doesn't want to date me? She's disriminating on the basis of my pheromone count; haul her into court. See, things really do get better whenever the government is involved!

[Jennifer]

Even if pheromones do exist, they are probably only capable of the former, but not the latter.

Oh, yes, agreed. I'm not trying to argue that someone someday WILL invent the substance of which I speak; I'm just playing a mind-game concerning what the results would be if it did.

[Jadagul]

Jennifer: I have to say, that would be a real problem. On the other hand, there are guys who claim they have such methods-techniques that are truly, literally irresistable if applied properly. Hence the link to the Secret Society of Pickup Artists book; another one is this guy claims that his techniques create an irresistable sensation of attraction in the target (not that he becomes irresistable, but that it's impossible for the girl he's going after not to be attracted). Should we regulate him? Even if it doesn't work, does that mean that he thinks he's doing something wrong, and is thus culpable?

[Jadagul]

Incidentally, I think lots of authors have played with these ideas before, Jennifer. I bet you can find lots of explorations of this topic online-say, at alt.sex.stories?

[Hakluyt]

biologist,

Its from A Private Little War. Its the episode where the Klingons and the Federation contest for influence on a planet by giving each side flintlocks, etc. Anyway, Kirk gets wounded by a large white, furry creature (I can't remember its name) and the wife of the leader of the group that the Federation is backing cures Kirk with a root that vibrates or "moves." Anyway, once she does that Kirk is supposed to be at her beckon call.

[Jennifer]

Jada--

I have a feeling the Secret Society is a crock, but I think what it boils down to is the difference between being persuasive versus making actual physical changes to the person's chemistry. (Yes, I know that any time you're turned on your chemistry changes a bit. But it is YOUR body making those changes, not a substance introduced INTO your body.)

[Eryk Boston]

May I point ut that a substance doesn't actually have to have the effects commonly attributed to it for the state to want to control it?

[Hakluyt]

Jadagul,

An X-Files episode specifically deals with the issue. Its what got me interested in the first place.

[io1029]

*sniff* *sniff*

This thread smells kinda... funny.

*looks around*

It wasn't me!

[Jennifer]

Incidentally, I think lots of authors have played with these ideas before, Jennifer

Oh, I'm sure they have, Jadagul. But for once, I'm interested in non-prurient speculations.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Heh, a in Reefer Madness.

[Eryk Boston]

I was thinking of ectasy, a drug which was overhyped by users before it was banned. If it hadn't been so popular with teens it might not have been given the status it was given by the Feds which would mean that it would be so much easier to do research with the drug.

[biologist]

Hakluyt, thanks, I think I vaguely remember that episode. They must not have shown it often. Didn't Kirk flirt with violating the prime directive? (Not that he didn't do that in any number of episodes.)

[io1029]

Eryk:
I'm not sure it matters how much popularity it had with teens would affect things. The morons in charge dislike a drugs because they are used for enjoyment. The same reasoning that had people worried when kids were dancing or listend to rock 'n roll music, or more recently go to raves and just dance all night long (among other things). For some reason having too much enjoyment in your life is "bad". Something about God wanting us to suffer to prove ourselves? Go figure.

For instance, I'm a USMC poolie (baiscally waiting around to go to boot this spring), and all during the MEPS processing you get asked if you have ever used drugs. But not just scheduled drugs, they ask if you ever took/inhaled/ate/smoked/licked/touched/eyeballed any substance for the purpose of "getting high" or "getting enjoyment" from an altered state. Things like sniffing magic markers, huffing paint, taking too much of any legal drug, etc....

They never even try to the BS "drugs are bad, Mmmmkay?" strategy. They just want to know if you enjoy being in an altered state.

It drove me nuts. There were guys at processing that had to take the ASVAB 2 or 3 times just score the minimum (31 out of 99), and they were more concerned if I had sniffed magic markers in high school.

[Jamie]

Holy fuck, you people are still posting on this thread? Is it the sexy mind of Jennifer?

[Hakluyt]

biologist,

Yeah, there is a long dialogue between Kirk and McCoy on that subject, with McCoy playing his typical "Oh the humanity!" role. This was really one of the most clear violations he could have committed, since he wanted to essentially create a proxy war on that planet as a means to compete with the Klingons. Obviously the Cold War and its proxy wars was figuring pretty heavily into the episode.

[io1029]

Jamie is a kind person for mentioning Jennifer's sexy mind.

[io1029]

Btw, Jamie, who you callin' "you people"? Don't hate me 'cause I'm white.

[John (the IT guy)]

Hak,

Dunno about them Saints but my Packers took another pounding today. Sheesh, a Brett Farve team at 2-9.

Joe (if you're out there) and anyone else interested, IFC, the Independant Film Channel, is airing the movie 'Pollock' starring Ed Harris as I type this. I don't know anything about the artist as a person and don't really trust a movie to do a 'realistic' portrayal but I'm curious and the wife wants to watch it.

Regards to all.

[Hakluyt]

Jamie,

It might be true that some people find Jennifer's ignorance sexy. I find it sad.

[io1029]

Want to know an easy way to get 100 more posts?

http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/

--

99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around...

98 bottles of beer on the wall!

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

Favre should have retired after last season.

BTW, how many field goals can the NY football Giants miss?

[Hakluyt]

Also, its hard to imagine that the Seattle Seahawks have the best record in the NFC.

[Hakluyt]

This really is the 99+ yards from scrimmage thread.

[Eddy]

BTW, how many field goals can the NY football Giants miss?

At least one more, I'm sure.

[Hakluyt]

Eddy,

That must have been a gut wrenching game to watch for a Giants fan.

[Eryk Boston]

I'm an Army vet so I have to make fun of jarheads on principle. Still, that line of questioning is just sad.

I've heard recently that there's research suggesting that extascy may be good for treating PTSD in soldiers. I hope it's true mostly to help the vets but also to watch politicians try to reconcile their love of the drug war with their need to support soldiers. Any bets on which head explodes from the strain first?

[Jennifer]

I've heard recently that there's research suggesting that extascy may be good for treating PTSD in soldiers. I hope it's true mostly to help the vets but also to watch politicians try to reconcile their love of the drug war with their need to support soldiers. Any bets on which head explodes from the strain first?

The Drug War mentality will win, no doubt. Even currently legal painkillers are being withheld from patients due to the DEA's attitudes these days. I don't expect to see our soldiers getting Ecstacy anytime soon.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Heh. Nice.

[Eryk Boston]

And I'm just enjoying the fact that Patriots are somehow in first place. They seem to be like the Republicans....on top mostly because the competition is so sad.

[Jennifer]

Guys and sports. I just don't get it. On the other hand, I'm currently watching some old second-season episodes of The PJs, and a lot of people just don't get that, either.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Man, I don't think you need to compare the Dolphins to the Democrats. That's just wrong man.

[Eryk Boston]

Jennifer, normally I'd agree but soldiers, especially wounded war vets, are a highly protected class.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, normally I'd agree but soldiers, especially wounded war vets, are a highly protected class.

Eric, ordinarily I'd agree, but have you seen the way veterans have been treated lately? They're not even getting what they were promised when they signed up (in terms of benefits and so forth); I don't see any drug warriors bending over backwards for them.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Well, the Jets just imploded this year. This was always going to be a rebuilding year for the Dolphins (they're playing better than I ever expected), and well, the Bills are what they always are. Anyway, the 'Fins already have as many wins this year as all of last year with five games to go. They can probably squeeze out two or three more by the looks of their schedule.

[Jennifer]

Whoops. That's "Eryk," not "Eric."

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Jennifer, normally I'd agree but soldiers, especially wounded war vets, are a highly protected class.

That was never my biological father's experience with the V.A. They seemed to treat Korean vets like shit.

[Ken Shultz]

Also, its hard to imagine that the Seattle Seahawks have the best record in the NFC.

I still, sometimes, have trouble remembering that the Seahawks are in the NFC.

[Eryk Boston]

Fair enough but the pols do need to at least pay lip service. All we need is for someone to ask just the right question on a campaign trail and it'll be time to get out the Gallagher sheets.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Since what, 1998 I think?

[Eryk Boston]

And don't worry, Genyphur, you're not the first to misspell my name.

[Eryk Boston]

The fun thing is that I've lost count of how many people can't spell my last name.

[Ken Shultz]

Speaking of imploding, my Redskins are killin' me.

To some extent, I've always played Warrior Poet of the Forlorn Hope, but even I feel like givin' up. ...Oh well, that'll only last until tomorrow, and then I'll think 'em unstoppable as ever. ...I mean, Gibbs 'll get 'em back to where they need to be eventually, right?

...right?

I mean, if it wasn't for Royal droppin' three f'n passes (two for crucial first downs) and that fucking--f'n 'scuse me--holding penalty, we'd 've won that game, and we'd still be in it. ...Both the Giants and the Evil Dead...I mean...Dallas lost this week too. We'd have been a game behind with both of those bastards comin' to play in our back yard, but noooOOOooo!

...Oh well, there's always next year. ...and it ain't over yet.

[Jennifer]

The fun thing is that I've lost count of how many people can't spell my last name

You're kidding! What kind of idiot can't spell "Philly?"

[Eryk Boston]

I'm a Virginian and actually couldn't care less about the Redskins.

[Ken Shultz]

Since what, 1998 I think?

Somethin' like that--I don't think anybody paid much attention to them until Alexander had that break out season the year before last. ...And even then, he only on the radar of fantasy football geeks--which I am most certainly not!

Anyway, I still have to remind myself that they aren't in the AFC West.

[io1029]

"All we need is for someone to ask just the right question on a campaign trail"...

Hah, that'll be the day. Our society is failing itself with respect to asking meaningful questions and not allowing BS politico-speak as answers. Even in a pathetic 2-party nation much could be kept in check if either side actually had meaningful debates.

Oh, and I can't be poked at as a "jarhead" just yet. I'm not a Marine until I pass boot, and the DI's won't ever let ya forget it 😉

[Rick Barton]

726 !! I'm just saying...

[Rick Barton]

726! This time I mean it.

[Ken Shultz]

I'm a Virginian and actually couldn't care less about the Redskins.

Yeah, well, don't tell your neighbors.

There was a special breed back home, as I recall, that tended to root for the Cowboys, simply to be contrary I think. I've always wanted to do a study on such people; I suspect their ancestors probably collaborated with the North, and/or were Loyalists during the Revolution.

...but you're not one of those Cowboy fans, I'm sure.

[Eryk Boston]

OK io, does that mean you get to be a maggot or a (let me check my FMJ script)?

[The Reason Server]

723 posts? Un-friggin-believable. Do you know how much stress this thread is putting on me? I have half a mind to shut down on you all just to show who's boss.

[Eryk Boston]

Red Sox and Patriots...some loyalties last a lifetime. If my neighbors object I always have my accent as a defense.

[Eryk Boston]

Dear Reason Server:
You ain't got the balls.
Signed,
Us

[Jennifer]

Christ, Eryk, shut up! Don't provoke it!

[Hakluyt]

The Reason Server,

Are you depressed? 🙂

Eryk Boston,

One of the nice things about not growing up in any particular place - that is moving around a lot as a kid - is that one has no automatic loyalty to a particular sports franchise. You get to pick them. So I'm an Eagles fan because of Jaws, a Yankees fan because of Mr. October, and a Sixers fan because of Dr. J.

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

I don't get the sports thing either. I couldn't care less how the dumb jocks of USC do.

Now, when I see a USC person publishing in Science, Nature, or PNAS, well, that's cause for celebration.

Rick-

What's the significance of 726?

And I don't think the sheer volume of posts will destroy the server. On the other hand, let's see how it handles the following:

POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32

[Ken Shultz]

I got a little of that too Hakluyt.

...My folks moved to San Diego while I was in boarding school, and I became somewhat of a Padres fan.

I think I locked in on some of the New York/DC dynamic. Sports wise, and in a lot of other ways too, San Diego is to LA as DC is to NYC.

[Eryk Boston]

You don't need a reason to be a Yankee fan, you need an excuse. Being a spawn of Satan is the usual one.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

I don't get the sports thing either. I couldn't care less how the dumb jocks of USC do.

And they call me elitist. Heh.

Football is part of the American civil religion. Even if you don't like the game, in arguing that it is pointless, etc. you are missing a lot of what makes up American culture. Shit, I completely dislike religion but I'd never be so arrogant or silly to say that I don't get it or don't try to understand it.

[Ken Shultz]

I couldn't care less how the dumb jocks of USC do.

...But do you keep tabs on the Bruins?

[Jennifer]

Thoreau--

My thing is, I can see why guys might think it's fun to play a sport; I just don't see how it's fun to watch others play. Or even if it's fun to watch, why some fans get so involved.

I remember seeing a story about a study--hardcorre sports fans actually felt less self-confident about themselves after their favorite team did poorly!

I am very glad Jeff isn't into sports. And I think humanity lucked out when your interests veered toward physics rather than football pplayers.

[Eryk Boston]

Thoreau, did you just invoke BASIC code?!

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

That's what is so funny about Redsox fans. The Yankees are just the alpha and the omega for them, whereas for Yankees fans the Redsox are another team.

[Jennifer]

On the other hand, let's see how it handles the following: POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32

Shame on you! I read that thread at Grylliade's and I know what you're trying to do!

Doesn't this server suck badly enough?

Do not we, the posters, suffer badly enough from it?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

...I just don't see how it's fun to watch others play.

Its fun for the same reasons its fun to watch other people have sex, etc. There is a heck of a lot of research on how the brain processes images as they are found in sport, etc. and why folks well, empathize or otherwise get the same stimulus from watching as from doing. Here you are ignorantly pontificating on pheromones and the like and you don't know squat about some of the basic things we've learned about how the brain works!

[Eryk Boston]

Which explains why the only time I've seen riot police called out during a baseball game was at Yankee stadium while the Red Sox were visiting. Yep, just another team.

[Ken Shultz]

Or even if it's fun to watch, why some fans get so involved.

Every American man thinks himself the best driver, the best fighter and the best lover in the world. ...I would add football coach to that list.

...Oh, and they're all wrong except for me.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Dude, that's every game. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

People like to watch for the same reasons they like to watch bullfights. The combination of the particular meme at hand with the way our brain functions vis a vis what we see makes for pleasure in watching.

[A Lurker]

Hakluyt doesn't like to make posts without insulting Jennifer.

[Eryk Boston]

Ken, I'm the best driver, lover and fighter in the world but only the second best football coach.

[Ken Shultz]

...and I think part of the reason people get so involved in spite of it being just a spectator experience is that it scratches some of the same itches that religion, political affiliation, etc. do. ...In practice, those are essentially spectator experiences also.

[Eryk Boston]

Filler post #750

[Hakluyt]

A Lurker,

That's not true. I only insult her when given the oppurtunity to do so. 🙂

[A Lurker]

That's not true. I only insult her when given the oppurtunity to do so.

Why?

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Like I wrote, much of has to do with how our brain rewards us when watching other people do things. Much of what happens in the brain when the athlete, porn star, bull fighter, etc. also happens in the individual watching what is going on. There have been a bunch of interesting studies done on the subject for a whole host of watched activities.

[Ken Shultz]

It's like a form of nationalism to a certian extent too. ...just on a smaller scale.

When I was young, it was me and my brother against a kid down the street and his brother. When I got older, the scale got bigger; it was the kids on my street vs. the kids on another street. ...Then the kids in our neighborhood vs. the kids in another neighborhood.

I went to the same high school that my parents and grandparents went to, and I wasn't unusual. Some of my friends' grandparents knew my grandparents when they went to school. ...and when we played some other school, especially if they had a similar story, it was us and our heritage against them and theirs. ...It wasn't just about the game.

College sports are like that. Pro sports are like that to a lesser extent, especially in places where the teams are closely tied to the local identity. Like in Washington, Denver, Oakland/LA, and Green Bay. It's who we are and what we're about against who you are and what you're about. ...It's like nationalism.

[Jennifer]

It's like a form of nationalism to a certian extent too. ...just on a smaller scale.

I understand this in regards to a team you actually play on yourself, Ken. What baffles me is that thing about hardcore fans taking it personally when a team they admire loses.

If you are actually playing on a losing team, then I can see how you'd feel bad over losing. But merely admiring a team on television?

[io1029]

So what station will be first to do 24/7 live broadcasts from helmet cams on soldiers? A sort of C/SPAN on the military. Will that make war a spectator sport?

The hours between 3AM and 6AM will be filled with the "burning of latrines" footage.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Deliberately belittling everyone else as your intellectual inferior certainly is.

Well, yeah, because you are easily baffled. See my comments above on why watching sports, sex, etc. are fun.

[zeiner]

". ...It's like nationalism."

That sounds very weird to me.

[Curious]

Jennifer, Deliberately belittling everyone else as your intellectual inferior certainly is.

Where did she say that? Now you're not just insulting her, you're making up words she said? Dude, why do you hate that girl so much?

[Eryk Boston]

I can join Red Sox Nation and still be an American.

[Hakluyt]

io1029,

Well, if folks can get into blood sports why not that?

[Hakluyt]

zeiner,

Why? Anything that holds a particular group of humans together is based on a common ethos or esprit d?corps. We see this throughout human societies, be it the Elks or Redsox fans or the USAF or political parties.

[Statistician]

Even if this thread makes 800 posts, it's no big deal when you figure 600 of them are Hakluyt calling Jennifer stupid.

[zeiner]

"So what station will be first to do 24/7 live broadcasts from helmet cams on soldiers? "

Probably FOX.

[zeiner]

Hakluyt,

The reason it sounds weird is that its just sports. Politics, religion, common suffering seems more important (at least to me). Maybe if some people directed their energy towards more important things, the world might be a little better.

I'm a New York Yankee fan, but I do not let it consume my life. Maybe I took your comment too seriously

[Eryk Boston]

Yankee fans are members of an evil cult. Is this not important to know?

[John (the IT guy)]

Jennifer,

I hadn't heard about that study and in complete honesty won't bother to surf over to PubMed to look it up but I'll be happy to take your word for it. I was taught in Psych 101 that there were seven Freudian 'coping' techniques. I'm sure we're all familiar with denial (no, not me!). 'Identification' is one of the seven and my prof made it a point to use our local football team as a bad example. She then went on to explain various studies that showed similar effects to what you discussed.

Shortly thereafter the Bengals really tanked and Cincinnati had riots.

Ok, that was a really bad joke.

Oh, and did anybody else catch 'Pollock'? It was fan-fargin-tastic. Dude reminded me of some of the regulars around here.

Regards to all.

[Apostate Jew]

Holy fucking crap! It's still going.

Must be a Gentile thing.

M. Hakluyt,

Lay of the shikse. She's OK. You, on the other hand, as a Frenchman, are deeply suspect.

I hope all you goyim enjoyed your Thanksgiving, even M. Hakluyt.

Tchussie!

[John (the IT guy)]

Oh, and Hak...

Farve is playing the way he always has. He walks on water I tell ya! It's those other bums that can't block, run, catch or play 'D'!

Farve rules! GO PACK GO!

Or something...

[zeiner]

Eryk Boston,

"Those who are feared are hated."

[zeiner]

Almost forgot, above quoate from Benjamin Franklin

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

Ha. 🙂

zeiner,

Ain't that the truth. Anyway, the Redsox have only themselves to blame for being in a drought so long. And as Yankees fan I had no problem rooting for the Sox in 2004 once they beat the Yankees. I seriously doubt you could fine a Redsox fan who would do the reverse.

[Ken Shultz]

If you are actually playing on a losing team, then I can see how you'd feel bad over losing. But merely admiring a team on television?

Like I said, I took today's loss to the Chargers kinda hard.

The 'skins mean more to me than just a football team. They represent where I grew up and what I thought of as important. ...Hard work, team work, character, playing through pain, enthusiasm, confidence. How to deal with loss. To some extent, (and you're not gonna find me in face paint or anything) the Redskins are still emblematic of these things. ...to me.

I grew up watching and admiring Gibbs. I respect and admire his achievements, his innovation and his management skills. ...His character counts perspective. (Are you familiar with John Wooden?)

As I've learned to manage people, I've come to many of the same conclusions Gibbs (and Wooden) taught when they coached. I guess what I'm tryin' to say is that although it's obviously just a spectator sport, when you self-identify with what's going on on the field, it is like you're a part of it. ...and I'm talkin' about more than just 12th man false start penalties.

I've long argued against the suggestion that libertarians should avoid making emotional appeals. ...I've found it very hard to motivate people without making such appeals. Most people don't affiliate as a function of some well reasoned argument--they decide which religion or political party to support using much the same logic they use when they choose a sports team to support. I don't think libertarians do that less than other people.

...aren't these the things you tell people about yourself when you want to tell them who you are? Is there anything wrong with some libertarian describing himself as an agnostic, libertarian Republican from wherever? Isn't it the case that rational people identify as pro-choice or pro-life without knowing all the scientific facts? ...Is there anything wrong with that?

I've gone off track a bit, but my main point is that sports affiliation is very much like political affiliation, and it becomes a part of people's identity via the same kinds of processes, I think. That's why, although it's like a spectator sport, people react to it, to some extent, as if they're participating. You've seen Bush supporters react to criticism of their man like you were talking about them, what they believed, their background, etc., right?

Political and religious affiliations are formed in this way, and sports affiliations are formed this way too. ...and like politics and religion, sports affiliation has a certain amount of logic to it too--consider Gibbs' offensive, and coaching philosophy, for instance. ...and criticizing that would be like criticizing human nature, I think.

[zeiner]

Hakluyt,

I agree. Redsox fans seem to be so touchy. When I walk around town while wearing my Yankees hat, I constantly get harrassed during basball season. Sometimes we heckle each other for fun, but sometimes the Sox fans go a little too far.

[Jack]

saw-whet wrote: "How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?"

I have. I was even antiwar in regards to Afghanistan.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

That was an elegant and thoughtful statement.

[Ken Shultz]

"How many here have been antiwar since day one, beside Rick Barton and I?"

I went from being marginally against the Iraq War to being dead set against it.

...but just for the record, I have more respect for people who were once in favor of the Iraq War and subsequently changed their minds--there's no virtue in being right all along.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Some people the sort of anti-football elitism you'd expect out of them.

[Hakluyt]

My parents are finally sending me some Katrina and post-Katrina pictures. Wow.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Imagine if you were a Texans fan. 🙂

[John (the IT guy)]

Ken Shultz,

Your insights regarding the process of identification certainly underscore what my psych prof taught us as well as my own management experience.

People just won't go along with the plan until they have a serious emotional investment. There also seems to be a remarkably short list of items to use/draw from to get that investment as well, you just have to spend some time listening to gain the insight relating to the particular person in question. Once they reveal what their personal 'hot button' is you can craft an approach that appeals to their 'selfish' desires to gain emotional commitment. Once you have their emotional commitment the goal is within reach. Without fail. Every time.

Unless your over-age quarterback refuses to retire....gaaaaah!

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

You and Ken Shultz should go on a speaking tour. You'd smoke that Robbins guy. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

I feel sorry for Titans fans. At least the Packers won a SB under Favre.

[John (the IT guy)]

Hak,

You're a perceptive dude. I already do that sort of thing for a living, though my students are particulary crafty at hiding their hot buttons.

Although, now that you bring it up, a speaking tour would certainly pay better than what I bring in these days.

Are you busy next year Ken? The Libertarians need us baaad.

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

Oh, we definately do. Libertarianism hurtin' for certain.

[thoreau]

I swear I am not making this up:

Hakluyt has contacted me and said that he will never again insult anybody on H&R or grylliade's forum, if I simply refrain from saying anything about writing computer code. Despite my, um... bewilderment at the nature of the demand, I have accepted the terms.

Anything to make this forum a better place.

[mediageek]

Holy crap.

I haven't even looked at this thread since it was around 100 posts or so.

And I pop in, and...things unordinary are abounding.

Egad.

[John (the IT guy)]

thoreau,

There are 10 kinds of people in the world.

Those that know binary and those that don't.

[thoreau]

John-

My best student got an F on a quiz with 15 questions.

🙂

[Hakluyt]

BTW:

SAINTS WIN!!!

SAINTS WIN!!!

[thoreau]

I was inconsistent in my notation. Let's try that one again:

My best student missed one question on a 10 point quiz. I gave him a grade of F.

It's hex, bitch! (In the words of Steven Colbert)

[Jennifer]

Looks like there have been some changes while I've been gone. So the next few days should be more peaceful, I assume?

[John (the IT guy)]

thoreau,

I'm gonna use that one for certain. My students will love it!

Heh heh (rubs hands in evil anticipation).

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Yes, that's why I did what I did. I needed to end your comments on coding to make the forum better. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

John (the IT guy),

Are you the IT guy for this place?

[raymond]

1. Tchussie!

Swiss?

2. On Sky News: "Is President Bush about to announce a staged withdrawal from Iraq?"

3. In an effort to bring peace and harmony to this part of the world, might I suggest we discuss the relative merits of the Mac OS and that macropile of microcrap known as Windows?

[Jadagul]

Hakluyt, I'm curious; what do you have against Thoreau's discussing his code on this forum?

[Hakluyt]

Jadagul,

Your curiousity will have to remain unsatiated.

[Hakluyt]

Jadagul,

I did give thoreau some advice on the matter. You may consult with him I suppose.

[io1029]

800?

[Hakluyt]

Yes, we have reached 800. The land of milk and honey as it were.

[io1029]

Gah! Hakluyt got 800 with his incessant posting!

I challenge thee to a duel! Pistols: 20 paces.

[mediageek]

I had a C++ teacher who kept his gradebook in hex.

The man was utterly insane.

Here we were, a bunch of animation students in his class, and he wanted us to write a C++ program to solve a 5th Order equation.

We're all like "Uh, dude, we don't know what that even is."

[I Wish't I Was In Peoria]

S. O. S., S. O. S., Captain we are lost,
Our ship is wallowing in the sea, by wind and wave we're tossed,
Lifeboats here, lifeboats there, Hear the shrieks and groans,
The captain calls "All hands on deck!" and says in trembling tones:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
Oh how I miss the "goils" in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
Oh you can pick a morning gloria right off the sidewalks of Peoria.
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

What a song, what a song, Hear the wild applause,
The Metropolian Op'ra House is crowded to the doors,
"Bravo" here, "bravo" there, "Bravo" with a bang,
Gatzi Katzi sang a song, and this is what he sang:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
Oh how I miss the flies in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
Why should I sing Toreadoria when I can sing about Peoria.
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

Play the fife! Play the drum!
Give a big hooray,
The great professor from Heidelberg
Is speaking here today.
Silence here, Silence there,
While he starts to preach,
The great professor clears his throat,
And makes this brilliant speech:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
They chased the laundry out of Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
The legislature passed a law-ria
And bought a bath tub for Peoria.
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

Battling Jack, Cyclone Jim,
Title is at stake,
They're putting up a terrific fight,
They punch and clinch a break.
Jack goes down, Jime goes down,
Both knocked out you see,
As the Referee counts them out,
They sing in harmony:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
They trim their nails with guns in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
The knives and forks out in Peoria
Are always chained down to the floor-ia,
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

Johnny Brown, all run down,
Lost his job one day,
They landlord gave him a dispossess
And burglars came his way.
Butcher here, Baker there,
Ringing Johnny's bell,
Wifie had a pair of twins,
And he began to yell:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
They use the best perfume in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
The pretty girlies think much more o' ya,
If you eat Garlic in Peoria,
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

Doctor White, Doctor Brown,
Doctor Smith and Jones,
Have all decided to operate
On Barney Google's bones.
Nurses here, nurses there,
Someone sends a wreath,
Barney lies there helplessly,
And murmurs through his teeth:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
Oh how I miss the mud in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
The present Mayor of Peoria
Works in the Five and Ten Cent Storia,
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

Mike McCann, married man,
Has a jealous wife,
He's in love with a chorus girl
And leads a double life.
Wife breaks in, catches him,
She's all set to kill.
Blooey, Blooey, Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'll read you his last will:

Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.
They're yelling "Whoops my dear" in Peoria, Peoria, tonight.
They've got a big red-blooded warrior,
He wears a red tie in Peoria,
Oh, how I wish't I was in Peoria, Peoria tonight.

[io1029]

Hmmmm, I've rethought the matter. If we are in the land of milk and honey I have no need for dueling.

That and I should probably stop watching this thread, it can't be healthy.

[Ken Shultz]

Did anyone else catch the NYT report suggesting that, among other reasons, the government didn't charge Jose Padilla with conspiring to set off a dirty bomb because they obtained the testimony against him by way of waterboarding?

Right off the bat, I can think of a couple of things that interest me about the facts of this case. 1) Did government torture, in fact, help uncover a terrorist plot? 2) Did the government, in fact, manufacture a bogus confession for public consumption?

[Hakluyt]

Now here you go getting all serious on us. Tsk. Tsk.

[dead_elvis]

Been out a while. Regarding the Civet:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010525.html

I *love* this quote from Cecil, regarding a coffee made from beans passed throught the digestive system of a Civet:

"Some people have expressed skepticism that kopi luwak consists entirely of pre-eaten beans, and from a quality-control standpoint it's hard to imagine what you would do to guarantee 100 percent authenticity. But I cherish the thought of some yuppie complaining that his coffee isn't pure shit. Meanwhile, somewhere a civet is rubbing its scraped perineal glands and thinking: Ah, sweet revenge."

[dead_elvis]

College sports are like that. Pro sports are like that to a lesser extent, especially in places where the teams are closely tied to the local identity. Like in Washington, Denver, Oakland/LA, and Green Bay. It's who we are and what we're about against who you are and what you're about. ...It's like nationalism.

After high school (and even there, some shenannigans goes on) it's all just a matter of "our hired ringers are better than your hired ringers." I just checked my hometown college's team, the University of Idaho. Out of a roster of nearly 90 players, only 16 are even from Idaho, much less Northern Idaho. Pro athletes playing for their home town or state are an exception. Anybody who equates regional identity with a sports team is in need of serious reality therapy.

[Eric the .5b]

Eric, I wasn't trying to make a great statement with my little snarky comment there.

It's cool. I've just always reacted as poorly to people sneering at me for "conforming" as to people actually trying to make me conform.

Oh, and if Eric the Halfabee is still reading: THIS is why conformity should be eschewed. Be honest: a discussion of hooker economics is a LOT more interesting than what we had before

It does nothing for me, but if you like it, that's cool.

[Eric the .5b]

[snipped discussion about motivations for war, India vs. Pakistan, etc.]

I don't know that an attempt to reduce every tension that could lead to war to "it's about power, women, and/or food" is remotely accurate or at all useful.

[Eric the .5b]

Texas will clear up that backlog by ripping out the electric chair and installing an electric couch.

Texas doesn't use the chair.

[Eric the .5b]

Winston Churchill also advanced the idea that, had America not entered WWI, the war would have ended in essentially a stalemate, and Hitler wouldn't have come to power.

Even if so, too bad for Germany that they felt it necessary to open up discussions with Mexico on the subject of their attacking the US with German support. And too bad that the US intercepted the relevant telegraphs.

[Chuck Norris]

Fact: The Texas electric chair is powered by the static electricity that eminates from my hands when I practice my knife-edge-hand technique.

[Eric the .5b]

Very good question, Jennifer. For instance, I think (hope?) that everybody here would agree that slipping a sleeping pill into somebody's drink and then having sex with the comatose person is immoral/unethical/insert-preferred-term-here (gotta be careful with phrasing on these philosophical issues).

But what if the drug is administered by scent, and the effect is more subtle?

In the case of pheromones, we're not talking drugs, but naturally-emitted sexual cues. What if the "drug" were a skin cream you could rub on to be suddenly made beautiful, sight being a much more powerful sexual cue for human being? I mean seriously, drop-dead, causes-traffic-accidents-when-walking-down-the-street gorgeous, as only a very few human beings actually are. Would that be ethically questionable and closer along the spectrum to dropping a roofie in someone's drink?

[Eric the .5b]

Remember:

Step 1: Say, "We're as bad as any horrible dictatorship!"

Step 2: Someone will fall for it and say something like, "That's just absurd. We may be doing bad things that need to stop, but we're not remotely as bad as any horrible dictatorship."

Step 3: You have two basic responses you can use.

a) "What? Your standard for decency is just to be better than a horrible dictatorship?"

b) "It's sad that we now only try to be just better than a horrible dictatorship. We should put that on the Declaration of Independence!"

Step 4: Watch the other guy get thrown for a second by the sheer insanity of the response and start to sputter. Press on with variations of step 3.

[Solitudinarian]

Damn, over 800. Surely there was more to do on a Sunday evening that that.

[thoreau]

Jadagul-

I have absolutely no clue why he insisted that I refrain from discussing a certain word that begins with "C". I accepted this deal out of curiosity more than anything else, just to see if a person would actually make such a drastic reversal in response to a downright strange concession.

So, the way it works is that he'll behave like a polite, normal human being as long as I refrain from discussing a normal professional activity that most H&R posters engage in.

Makes no sense to me, but let's see what happens.

[Phil]

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

If H&R represents a sub-set of the normal, then being polite isn't particularly normal for human beings.

As to my demand, why should my demand bother you so? You should accept it for what it is. Think of it as a koan-like thing if you must.

[thoreau]

You know, as I think about it in the light of day, if you're really a gentleman then you'll simply behave like one, regardless of who discusses what computer topic.

I'm not saying I'm breaking any deals, but if you're a gentleman then you should just act like one. Period. Otherwise you're just playing childish games.

Time will tell.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Is there some reason you want to trash this deal?

Also, I am not and never will be a gentleman. I don't have the pedigree for it, nor am I likely ever to rise to the ranks of the gentry either.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Honestly, if I had realized that what I was doing would cause you this much consternation and general apprehensiveness I wouldn't have done it. Let go dude.

[Eryk Boston]

#825

[Shawn Smith]

Hakluyt,

...a large white, furry creature (I can't remember its name) and the wife of the leader of the group that the Federation is backing...

The wife (Nona) was a Kanutu woman. The white gorilla with the spines along its back and horn on its head was a Mugatu.

Well, what do you expect with the large number of Trekk{ies/ers} here? 🙂 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

A thousand is likely out of reach at this point.

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

Heh. Thanks. I bow to your superior Trek knowledge, oh wise and noble Trek shaman. 🙂

[Viking (the confused) Moose]

so, like, what. have we given up on the saying nice stuff?

smack my behind and call my myrna. it sher is a mondae again.

paging stevo darkly: time to dust off the evil Mr. Spock goatee, and let's get to work.

[Hakluyt]

VM,

Heh. There is a difference between flaming and being "nice." I don't plan on being pleasant or cordial or friendly any time soon.

[Viking Moose the... aw hell.]

of course, in the twisted corners of my little brain, the words "flaming" and "nice" took on a different innuendo. cue the scene from "stripes" when they're signing up for the military.
"why? would they send us someplace special?"

might i suggest my little remedy for this:

i tell little kids about santa. then get "AGF" to take their popcorn satchel.

[Eryk Boston]

Get stuffed Trekies, Potter fans are in charge now.

[Rick Barton]

Lotsa "inside voices", huh?

[Morgoth Baughlir]

Potter, eh? I have never heard of this insolent child of the Edain... Though I did meet that nice Voldemort at a retreat in the Catskills

[raymond]

Dumbledore shall rise again.

[thoreau]

If you were the real Morgoth you'd either regard Voldemort as lower than a flea, or else you'd fear him (for it is said that Morgoth feared humans, even those who served him, since humans are not bound by fate while the Ainur are indeed bound by fate).

[raymond]

Oh, and in Switzerland, too. Which would be a violation of Swiss neutrality. Which, whether some accept it or not, is awfully important to the Swiss.

[Hakluyt]

The nice thing about the Harry Potter books is that in fifty years they will be unread claptrap.

[Hakluyt]

raymond,

The Swiss have never been truly neutral.

[raymond]

WASHINGTON - A basketball-sized piece of marble moulding fell from the facade over the entrance to the Supreme Court, landing on the steps near visitors waiting to enter the building.

Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rime;
But you* shall shine more bright in these contents
Than unswept stone, besmear'd with sluttish time.
When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
And broils root out the work of masonry,
Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
The living record of your memory.
'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
Even in the eyes of all posterity
That wear this world out to the ending doom.
So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lovers' eyes.

*fundamental human rights

[thoreau]

The Swiss may not be truly neutral, but many have been Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, and occasionally Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil.

[kwais]

Dr T,
You should accept this way weird agreement. I would really like to know why Hak doesn't want you talking about binary code, or whatever the fuck. I am very curios.

But I think it would be an interesting personality study to see if Hak would live up to the terms, and how would his numerable posts change in tone. Hak after all is an interesting psychology case study. Even if his whole persona on this site is a fabrication from some normal person with an alter ego.

[the truth]

I am not and never will be a gentleman

Of course not. What else should we expect from a 16-year-old kid posting from his parent's basement?

[kwais]

PS
The Gyrilade site has a lot of things going on. Where abouts did you start to talk about computer codes?

[thoreau]

kwais-

I tell myself that I'm only doing this as an experiment. It feels weird to give in to a demand like "I'll continue to be an obnoxious prick unless you stop talking about a perfectly normal professional task that numerous educated people engage in!"

He made the offer about 3 weeks ago or so. At the time I refrained from taking him up on it. Yesterday things got nasty again, here and on grylliade's site. He emailed me and made the offer and I was like "Screw it. Let's see what happens."

It's a psychology experiment, that's all.

[Hakluyt]

the truth,

That's so funny! Did you make that up yourself? Ha ha ha. 🙂

thoreau,

Nice to see you getting your geek on.

kwais,

I would really like to know why Hak doesn't want you talking about binary code, or whatever the fuck.

Why does it matter?

[raymond]

Swiss neutrality.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

So far, the data looks good.

[Jennifer]

Kwais--

I have my own theory about the coding mystery. I won't post it here, since it would only serve to irritate certain people, but if you want to drop me an e-mail I'll share it with you.

[raymond]

English version

[Hakluyt]

thoreaou and kwais,

The reason I picked it was simple: I knew I could easily bait thoreau (and at least a few others) into a "deep thoughts" conversation about why I picked that particular topic for thoreau to refrain from discussing. I knew I had to get really nasty in order to get thoreau to agree to such and it took a few weeks to get that point.

[thoreau]

So what you're saying is that it's just a way of proving that you can get people to do things?

[Hakluyt]

Basically I am performing a little mind-fuck on thoreau, etc. It was quite enjoyable. That our resident Deanna Troi has now plugged it into her pet theory on me makes the whole thing even sweeter.

[thoreau]

So, if you were only being obnoxious as part of an experiment, and since that experiment succeeded, if I start talking about writing software you'll return to being obnoxious? What purpose does that serve, beyond making enemies?

[Jennifer]

Thoreau, some people would rather be hated than ignored.

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Boy, you really do like going down into the rabbit hole, don't you?

Let's just say that my motives were mixed. My suggestion is that you read the comments of Ken Shultz on the matter. He says it better than I can.

[thoreau]

I have no more interest in your games. We both learned what we wanted to learn from this exercise, and it's your decision as to whether you conduct yourself like a decent, polite person. I have no interest in trying to make a grown man, or teenager, or AI, or group of people posting under the same name, or whoever, control his/her/its/their behavior.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Some people would rather make up crackpot theories about others than simply acknowledge that others might know somethings that they don't know. The person I am describing here is you of course. You made an enemy of me, not vice versa. You are ethically obtuse if you cannot see that.

thoreau,

...if I start talking about writing software you'll return to being obnoxious?

I made a deal with you. I don't flip-flop around on such matters. I assumed that was clear.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Oh, and I'm not discussing a real rabbit hole mind you, or Harvey the Rabbit for that matter.

thoreau,

I'd say its more your decision to stop being a hypocrite. If you don't, then you haven't learned anything.

[David F. aka Viking Moose]

jezus. enough.

this grab ass teenage shit gets in the way of good grab ass college shit that usually goes on here.

the characters of Thoreau and Hakluyt both contribute a lot to this forum. Despite the bad blood that has been made manifest, I continue to value both of them in this online (fake) universe we've all created. And I like Hakluyt and Thoreau. I've never met Gary and Alex, but I suspect it would be fun meeting both.

just, for now, go to the corner specified by the ref and wait further instructions.

Send each other some private messages at Grylliade and at least air out some stuff in private or something.

Respectfully,
David (Viking Moose and drf)

[Yoda]

Strong the anger is in this one.

[Shawn Smith]

Hakluyt,

I'm no Star Trek shaman. I only know a few things about the original series (from the 60's.) There's just too much to cover the trivia that the other 25 seasons have produced since the animated series ended.

Thanks, anyway.

[Commentator]

When Hak said he "would stop insulting people on this forum" I guess Jennifer wasn't included in that.

[Hakluyt]

VM,

Its basically impossible to bury the hatchet with thoreau. He won't allow one to do it.

Shawn Smith,

More of a shaman than I.

[Hakluyt]

Commentator,

I didn't insult her. I told her my opinion of her claim.

[Commentator]

I told her my opinion of her claim.

Did she tell you what her theory was? If not, how can you form an opinion on it?

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

What's particularly funny is this: you're all arrogantly getting your game on for how you're going to do an experiment on me, being a snot about how cool its going to be, etc., and how you're just going to play a game one me. Revealing your plans on how you are going to screw with my head. When it turns that I've been the one running the experiment you become the self-righteous, blinders on full prick that you are. I did to you what you wanted to do to me, and for that I am a morally sanctionable person, but for you to plan on doing it, well, that's just fine.

[The Peanut Gallery]

thoreau hasn't said anything about coding.

Hakluyt is back to insulting people.

No wonder thoreau lost interest in the game.

[Hakluyt]

Commentator,

Its quite easy to surmise what her theory is.

[Hakluyt]

The Peanut Gallery,

I have insulted no one. Apparently commentary which isn't shiny and happy is an insult to some people. An insult is an expression meted out expressly to harm someone's feelings. If anyone's feelings have been harmed, well, it is mine.

Oh, and thoreau could have shown the common decency of not insulting me after I buried the hatchet with him. Didn't happen of course.

[Jennifer]

Its quite easy to surmise what her theory is.

What is it? I asked her to send me a copy, and I think she might be on to something. I don't know you well enough to say for sure, though.

[Jennifer]

Ooops! Oh, well, if we're going to have nice, insult-free conversations I don't need to stay in the Gulch, right?

[Shawn Smith]

The Harry Potter fanbase is at least as big (and younger) than the Star Trek fanbase was in the 70's, so I wouldn't be surprised if Harry Potter is still read and enjoyed fifty years from now. Who would have suspected in 1970 that Star Trek would have grown to the phenomenon it became in the 80's and 90's? Harry Potter may be claptrap, but fifty years just seems like too short of a time for them to be unread.

I've heard of a site that allows you to make bets far into the future. I wouldn't have a problem betting that Harry Potter, or its successors, would still be at least as big as the Forgotten Realms franchise from Wizards of the Coast is today.

My wife would have a problem with the bet, should it involve actual money, however.

🙂 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Commentator/Jennifer,

Ha ha ha.

Oh, and I am more than willing to bury the hatchet with you as well.

Shawn Smith,

Why would she have a problem with it?

[Jennifer]

Screw it, I'll post what I think is going on here:

While Hak is obviously an intelligent person, it seems he has the type of intelligence that's big on memorization but low on original analysis--he'll often spit out a truly dazzling array of facts, but I don't recall EVER seeing him actually combine these facts and get an original conclusion from them.

I also suspect that some of his information may stem not from his brain but from Google searches. And THAT is why Thoreau's talk of coding infuriates him so much. After all, if someone talks about--say--"The War of Jenkin's Ear," even if you've never heard of it before it will take you all of five seconds to Google it, and then glean enough information to present yourself as an expert.

But not with Thoreau's coding. It'll take a hell of a lot more than a quickie search on Google for M. Gunnels to pretend he know s more than Thoreau. Gary's entire self-image is based on "I know more than you about every subject under the sun, ha ha ha!" (Do y'all remember the thread where he pretended to know more than I about what it's like to be a female stripper?) But where Thoreau's concerned, Gary can't pretend to be more knowledgeable.

After all, we're talking about a history major who insulted a PhD in physics, for God's sake.

And the intense anger Gary spewed toward me on this entire thread? Why is he apparently incapable of saying "I disagree with you because of X;" why must he always say "I disagree, and furthermore you are totally stupid and so forth?" Well, that goes to my original theory that he's got some form of autism which leaves him just not very good at controlling his emotions; of course he'll get angry when there's no reason for it. And of course he'll insist that the problem lies not with him, but the whole entire rest of the world. Poor, poor Gary--everybody here and at Grylliade's picks on him for no reason! No reason whatsoever!

[VM]

http://www.nzz.ch/2005/11/28/eng/article6271033.html

sorry for feeding the troll. couldn't resist. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

Well, then one can only hope that it is as well remembered in fifty years as Thomas Shadwell is today.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Ha ha ha. Keep on hypothesizing. Its amusing. 🙂

...it seems he has the type of intelligence that's big on memorization but low on original analysis...

This claim is made often enough. I never see any evidence for it though.

...but I don't recall EVER seeing him actually combine these facts and get an original conclusion from them.

I do it all the time dear. I've done it on this thread re: Churchill's remarks on Germany winning WWI. Your bias against me just blinds you to this fact.

After all, if someone talks about--say--"The War of Jenkin's Ear,"...

Learned about in graduate school in a course titled: The Making of Modern Britain. I can't recall what text it was from.

But not with Thoreau's coding.

I picked coding on a lark. VM and Ken Shultz can both attest to this. Reading anything else into is just that. Reading more into than already exists. You got that brain working over time creating all sorts of hypotheticals based on patterns you are creating that don't actually exist. I don't know shit about coding, don't care about coding, and don't mind if people talk about coding.

(Do y'all remember the thread where he pretended to know more than I about what it's like to be a female stripper?)

Do you realize what a disingenous spin on the facts of that conversation this is? I never pretended to know more about the subject - I did deign to challenge your know it all attitude about the subject though. That was ultimately your problem - someone questioning your analysis in what you considered your balliwick.

But where Thoreau's concerned, Gary can't pretend to be more knowledgeable.

I am far more knowledgeable in many areas than thoreau will ever be. Its not an issue of pretending. I simply know more than he ever will on a multitude of subjects. And vice versa. Are you seriously claiming that a physics degree makes one knowledgeable in all fields of human endeavour? *LOL*

And the intense anger Gary spewed toward me on this entire thread?

You viciously insulted me. Ergo, I don't like you. Get a clue.

[The Peanut Gallery]

Doctor Thoreau, please stick to theorizing. Your experiment has blown up in your face.

[Shawn Smith]

Hakluyt,

My wife is very risk-averse, and her dad blew mortgage money on sports betting when she was younger. Any talk of actual gambling makes her unhappy, as a result.

If you're referring to the poet Thomas Shadwell who died in 1692 (discovered via Google), I would guess that J.K. Rowling will be less known 300 years from now than Shadwell is today. But fifty years...? It doesn't seem likely to me. But heck, it wouldn't be the first (or last) time I was completely wrong.

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

The name popped into my head because I wrote a paper on Dryden's poem about Shadwell. I consider it to be a deep and wounding insult against Potterdom.

[Jennifer]

I never pretended to know more about the subject - I did deign to challenge your know it all attitude about the subject though.

But on the stripper thread, instead of saying "Jennifer, why are you saying these things?" or "Jennifer, I disagree with you because X" you immediately started in with insults, calling me patronizing and so forth before even determining why I held the opinions I did. Again, a completely inappropriate emotional response. Have you ever disagreed with anyone here WITHOUT insulting them in the process? If so, I must have skipped that thread.

Come to think of it, with the exception of your smiley-face emoticons, anger is the only emotion I've ever seen you demonstrate here.

[Hakluyt]

Shawn,

Well, that is not fully correct, as it was on more than that poem, being a discussion of Dryden as a Tory propagandist.

[Jennifer]

The thing is, when I first put forth my theory about Hak having Asperger's syndrome, (or maybe the second time, I don't remember exactly) I remember Hak gettng mad and using the words "you red-headed asshole" to describe me. And I actually felt guilty, then--I could almost hear his voice cracking when I read that, and I thought "Christ! I wouldn't make fun of someone for having Down's syndrome, or being born without legs; why the hell am I making fun of this man? He can't help being emotionally stunted anymore than I can help being short."

But my guilt evaporated as soon as he started on another of his tirades. I don't care that it's not really his fault--I just know that he consistently makes his emotional probelms into a problem for everybody who tries to have a conversation on this forum. Until today I hadn't said a word to him in several weeks, but that surely didn;t stop him from gunning for me. if anything, it made it worse! Yes, I understand--he has a hard time making people like him, and would rather be hated than ignored, blah blah blah. Gotcha. But I wish he'd kept me the hell out of the stinking Stygian nightmare he calls his emotional mindscape.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

But on the stripper thread, instead of saying "Jennifer, why are you saying these things?" or "Jennifer, I disagree with you because X" you immediately started in with insults...

Also untrue. Furthermore, in expecting such exchanges from me only you are expecting something which you don't expect from others.

As to my emotions, I show mirth, joy, etc. to numerous posters, just not you.

Anyway, as I wrote, I am more than willing to bury the hatchet with you just as I did with thoreau. See, that's me extending the hand of friendship. Its basically up to you.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I don't have this syndrome. Perhaps, instead of being arrogant and making such diagnoses of me, you should ask me what I do have. For someone who claims not to be a know it all, not to be arrogant, you presume much without asking much.

[Eryk Boston]

I'd say this bickering is ruining the thread but as the only point now seems to be to push it over a thousand posts then snipe away.

[Jennifer]

Haks' first comment to me on the stripper thread (after I said that one-dollar table dances were a very bad deal from the dancer's perspective):

And you know this how? Are you claiming some enhanced mental powers based on advances in genetics?

Comment by: Hakluyt at September 22, 2005 12:11 PM

Hak's second comment:

Your attitude strikes me as being especially elitist and paternalistic. Maybe you ought to ask the strippers before you start telling them how to run their lives.

I suppose, since the actual words "You are stupid" do not appear, an emotionally stunted creature like Gary could confuse these for polite queries.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I think you'd rather me hate you than anything; certainly more than actually asking me politely some rather direct questions. Which is kind of unfortunate really. You seem to know a little about English literature and we could have some nice conversations about Dryden or Donne or Marlowe.

[Jennifer]

I'd say this bickering is ruining the thread but as the only point now seems to be to push it over a thousand posts then snipe away.

Eryk, all day yesterday I was having nice little conversations with others, not discussing Hak at all, and he kept going after me. Over and over and over. And NOW you worry about dragging down the tone of this thread?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. That is quite typical banter here by most parties.

[Eryk Boston]

All day yesterday I was driving home to Virginia from Massachusetts so I missed the fun. For the record, I do recall saying that Hak plays well with exactly six other persons.

[Jennifer]

By the way, once this thread is over I am going back to the Gulch and resuming my ignore-Hak thing. Although it clearly hasn't been working; all through this thread he kept trying to goad me into a response. And so he has. Good for him!

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Heh. I don't remember that at all. Or am I missing out on some piece of the detritus which is popular culture? 🙂

[Jennifer]

For the record, I do recall saying that Hak plays well with exactly six other persons.

Fine, let him play with them. But why the hell does he insist on insulting people who aren't even talking to him? I said NOTHING to him all day yesterday, and yet he just kept on sniping at me. He got so bad that even the other posters were telling him to lay off or stop making inappropriate comments to and about me. Jesus, without his insults the number of posts in this thread would probably be reduced by a third!

[Hakluyt]

This thread will never, ever end.

[Eryk Boston]

That was back when we were saying something nice about the previous poster and when I was enjoying the extra painkillers.

[Jennifer]

Hell, the reason I made that "he'd rather be hated than ignored" comment is because the number and intensity of insults he's thrown my way actually INCREASED once I stopped talking to him.

[Eryk Boston]

Is there a term for what makes people who bravely say things online they would never say in person....something akin to alchohol being called liquid courage?

[Shawn Smith]

I don't know why it would wound Potterdom. I consider the Harry Potter franchise much like I consider the Star Trek or Dungeons & Dragons franchises--enjoyable pass times that some people probably take too far. Depending on whom you talk to, I'm either barely sane or way out there in the loony bin with any of those topics. Harry Potter sinking into obscurity in the next few decades may trouble some people, but most of us will simply find something else to spend our time on, whether its gardening, playing computer games, enjoying sports, or something else.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I said NOTHING to him all day yesterday, and yet he just kept on sniping at me.

Your various analyses were hock full of error. I can't let that slide.

Jesus, without his insults the number of posts in this thread would probably be reduced by a third!

No, they'd be the same. My insults are nearly always encased in substantive commentary. That's probably what really frustrates people the most.

Anyway, my bury the hatchet offer still stands.

[Eryk Boston]

Jennifer, that would be an example of the conditioning they discuss in the first month of a psych class. Something akin to a todler screaming screaming louder when you try to ignore him.

[Jennifer]

Your various analyses were hock full of error. I can't let that slide.

All right, fine. But honestly--are you not capable of seeing the difference between "I disagree because X," versus "I disagree and you're stupid?"

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

So, its interchangeable, eh? That makes cognitive sense I suppose.

Jennifer,

They increased because I have had a very clear field of fire now. Kind of like the Germans had at and around Monte Cassino.

[Jennifer]

For that matter, speaking of inappropriate emotional responses, Hak, why is it that when someone writes what you consider an error you get so ANGRY? Seriously--where is all this rage of yours coming from?

[Jennifer]

I'm going to commit an act of plagiarism here, and cut and paste something that another person wrote to Hak in Grylliade's forum.

We admire intellect.
But we hate boasting.
We respect extensive knowledge.
But we hate know-it-alls.
We enjoy insightful yet playful discussion.
But we hate being told that we don't know enough to converse with you.

If you can't understand these distinctions, go develop some social skills.

And if we really aren't worthy to opine in the same forum as you, then go find some conversational partners whom you deem worthy.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Certainly. The issue isn't whether I can tell the difference, I most certainly can, the issue is whether I care or have a desire to act one way or the other. For some reason you continually want to ascribe conditions to me which abdicate my role as a decision maker in my actitivities. I can't say why.

No my suggestion is this. (1) Show me a little respect my asking me what condition I do have. (2) Accept that I do what I do out of free will. (3) Take up my offer.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

You saw my response over there. It still stands.

[Jennifer]

Hak, I would still like to know why you cannot disagree with people without insulting them.

[Shawn Smith]

Hakluyt,

If by "its" you mean various pass times, I would say yes. Of course, I believe Mr. Marius would insist that I listen to my betters to know what I should be doing with my spare time.

P.S.
I meant "...whether it's gardening..."

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I disagree with people all the time without insulting them. See my conversation about FDR in the thread above. Its likely that the behaviors of certain posters do tick me off though and I do not like being insulted. You'll notice that VM and I get along well because we don't insult one another.

[Jennifer]

Certainly. The issue isn't whether I can tell the difference, I most certainly can, the issue is whether I care or have a desire to act one way or the other.

So in other words, you say you KNOW you are being rude, but simply do not care. Why? Why do you use rudeness rather than respect as your default setting? Are you the type who can't feel good about yourself without trying to tear someone else down? And why do you expect me to treat you with respect when you will not return the favor? Surely you know that human interaction is a two-way street.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Because obviously I don't care if I insult the particular poster.

Why do you use rudeness rather than respect as your default setting?

Its not the default setting of course.

I think you need to differentiate our "relationship" from how I deal with other posters. See, Shawn Smith aren't fighting, etc. and he reads what I consider crap, etc. Quit erroneously assuming that your experiences are universal.

Surely you know that human interaction is a two-way street.

I've been trying to drill that into you for a while now.

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

gaius marius does seem place high value on hierarchy and social control.

[Eryk Boston]

Isn't it obvious that Nak and Jennifer are in love? I predict marraige.

[Jennifer]

No, Eryk. I was perfecty content to just ignore him. In fact, I will no longer post to him; I should not have done so here. I am going to go back to ignoring him altogether, and he can continue spewing vitriol my way if it makes him happy.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

My wife might be pissed at that idea.

[Eryk Boston]

Eh, I'm sure some state court will allow polygamy soon. I predict (obvious choice) Utah.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Oh come now. We were just about to get to the meat of the matter.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Legal or not, my wife would still be pissed.

[Jennifer]

Eryk, just a day or so ago I saw aheadline (but did not read the story); a threesome in Utah is indeed trying to get married. And in New York, a gay couple on trial for embezzlement is trying to demand the spousal privilege of not having to testify against their partner. I don't know how I feel about the first case, but I DEFINITELY think the gay couple should get the spousal privilege. (Well, actually, I think spousal privilege should be revoked. But since it won't be, then it sould be given to gay couples. Fair's fair.)

[Eryk Boston]

I saw the case which is why I picked Utah.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I would like to continue this conversation so we can iron out our differences. We don't have to do it here.

[Jennifer]

Well, Eryk, I already went through the trouble of finding the link so I am going to post it here anyway.

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3256257

[Hakluyt]

Why would you oppose the spousal privilege? Because you think it protects abusers? Most states have amended it (one way or another) so that it doesn't.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Yeah, I read about the spousal privilege case earlier. There are also some bankrtupcy cases out of Florida that deal with individuals who have civil unions from Vermont that have received a lot of commentary.

[Jennifer]

Hak, the only reason I bother posting here in the first place is no doubt the reason we all do--to kill a little time by discussing concepts I find interesting with other people who also find them interesting. And I also enjoy discussing things with people who have different viewpoints, as when my atheist self discusses religion with believers like Thoreau. What I do NOT enjoy is a situation where an honest debate turns into either a slew of insults, or someone deliberately (or perhaps not deliberately) misunderstanding every comment via overliteral readings of it, nit-pickiness, or whatever. I am also fed up with your apparent attitude that if YOU know some obscure fact of history, EVERYONE should know it and if they do not they are idiots.

Really, Hak, if I am even one-tenth as stupid as you have insisted throughout this thread then you should not waste your time sniping at me, anyway.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

You need to differentiate stupidity from ignorance. You are ignorant re: many things, that doesn't make you stupid.

What I do NOT enjoy is a situation where an honest debate turns into either a slew of insults...

...every comment via overliteral readings of it, nit-pickiness, or whatever...,/i>

Except when you are nitpicking.

Except when you are engaged in the insulting. Just as you insulted gaius marius in the thread about FDR above.

[Jennifer]

Forget it, Hak. I will resume ignoring you. If you want to continue sniping at me, go right ahead. And all the posters on this thread who called you out and said you were being inappropriate toward me--yes, yes, they were ALL wrong. Tell yourself that.

[Eryk Boston]

Let's start the pool on how many posts before she stops ignoring him. I'll bet 7 since they are, of course, in love.

[Anonymous]

Hakluyt gets "inside voices" confused with "voices inside".

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

And all the posters on this thread who called you out and said you were being inappropriate toward me--yes, yes, they were ALL wrong.

Whether that is the case or not says nothing about the verity of my last statements. See, the world isn't the black and white image you have of it.

Eryk Boston,

It doesn't matter. I've proven my point to both her and thoreau. I can move on now.

[Jennifer]

Eryk, the joke is getting old. I am sick and tired of having insults thrown my way and called 'discourse.' But if you want to pretend that this is the equivalent of me having a little-girl crush on someone, go right the fuck ahead.

(And yes, I understand you were trying to make a joke. But having spent all day yesterday watching someone whom I wasn't even talking to lobbing insults at me, I'm not feeling particularly amused.)

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Uh oh. Remember, the rule: Jennifer can insult at will, but not vice versa. 🙂

[Ken Shultz]

Do both parties here want peace?

Jennifer, if Hakluyt stopped attacking you, would you abandon any attempt to ostracize him? ...Would you agree not to speculate regarding any syndromes he may have?

...And Hakluyt, if you felt that Jennifer wasn't tryin' to ostracize you, and she no longer made any suggestions regarding any syndrome you might have, etc., would you bury the hatchet?

...'cause this is way outta hand, and it's gotta end. ...and I don't think either of you will ever apologize, but if you both agree to just take it down to like DEFCON 3, we could probably get by.

...but both of you have to want it. If you don't...

[Jennifer]

Ken, I'm not ostracizing him, I've simply (with the exception of today) stopped speaking to him, because it was impossible to do so without him taking something out of context, or being overly literal, or whatever. If he wanted to stop speaking to or about me, that would be fine. As I said before, if I were even one-tenth as stupid as he has repeatedly claimed on this thread, then I don't see why he should wish to waste his time talking to me in the first place.

Seriously, Ken, did you read the insulting remarks he made to me throughout the day yesterday? Even other people were asking him what the hell his problem was, and telling him to cool it. And that is what I wished to avoid when I made my original decision to simply stop responding to him.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

I believe I've already stated that I was willing to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones. I got no response.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

...I've simply (with the exception of today) stopped speaking to him...

That is flat out untrue and you know it. You, joe and thoreau are constantly insulting me, discussing me, etc. You've decided to stop making direct comments to me, you haven't decided to stop speaking to me. You have a major problem making distinctions between categories of things.

[Ken Shultz]

Jennifer,

I haven't read those comments. Whatever it was, I don't know how to make Hakluyt apologize. I don't know how to make him stop either--so I'm askin' him.

Hakyluyt, what do you want? What needs to happen to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones?

...and then I'm gonna ask Jennifer if she can do that.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

The main purpose of the Gulch was to ostracize me, as thoreau made clear. So, protestations otherwise don't ring true.

[Ken Shultz]

So that's somethin' that won't work. ...tell me about something that will.

What do you want to happen?

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

What needs to happen? Well, if Jennifer is truly going to ignore then she truly needs to do it. If she does address me she needs to do it directly and quit all this hemming and hawing about it.

I don't particularly expect her to apologize for her outrageous, insulting behavior.

[The Peanut Gallery]

No, they started their strike because things get worse when people talk to you.

Like what happened when they broke the rules and talked to you.

Utopian projects always fail.

At least this failure was amusing.

[Ken Shultz]

That's hard to put in concrete terms--terms that she can agree to abide by. ...It sounds like you want her to feel differently, and we can't quantify that.

...What if she agreed to drop the whole "let's not talk to Hakluyt" thing? Are you willing to drop to DEFCON 3 for that?

[Pro Libertate]

Um, crimethink, I don't speak Latin. Though I do know enough to offend educated women:

Monstra mihi tuum mammis.

Breaks the ice at parties, you know.

[Jennifer]

Please, Ken, read what I wrote to you (or rather, cut and pasted for you) at 4:43 and then explain to me why I am wrong to not wish to speak to such a person.

[Ken Shultz]

And you and Eryk think it somehow inappropriate that I got fed up with this?

of course not!

I'm tryin' to figure out what Hak wants to let all of that go, and whether you can live with it. ...as for you, I'm hoping that maybe getting rid of all that will be worth more to you than what he wants.

[Pro Libertate]

No, my last comment wasn't a non sequitur, I just didn't expect an intervening 800 comments between me and crimethink's compliment. Back when we were doing that complimenting thing, you know. Just to avoid getting into dutch with anyone, my last offensive Latin phrase was not directed at Jennifer. Or Hakluyt, for that matter, though that wouldn't make any danged sense, anyway 🙂

[server fairy]

I don't know how many others have read this entire thread, but speaking for myself, it's beginning to go a might bit lame,....you know?
Especially with the two mega snot-buckets going at it like dog and cat for the last hundred or so posts. Can't you two do your dirty laundry in private? I just feel like crashing something. 🙂

[Ken Shultz]

Please, Ken, read what I wrote to you (or rather, cut and pasted for you) at 4:43 and then explain to me why I am wrong to not wish to speak to such a person.

It's not about right or wrong. ...It's what can you get and how much will it cost?

[Hakluyt]

server fairy,

*ROFL*

[Hakluyt]

Pro Libertate,

We are closing in on 1,000 posts.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Anyway, I guess I was clear enough.

[Jennifer]

Ken, I've been ignoring this person for quite awhile; as you saw, he has NOT been ignoring me. Let him throw out all the insults he wants, if it makes him happy. I am simply saying that I do not wish to respond. Why are you putting the onus on me, here? How do YOU think I should have responded, after, say, the twentieth or so insult he tossed at me (again, after I said nothing to or about him)?

Tell me, Ken: next time I am having a conversation with another poster and Hak responds with various anti-Jennifer insults, what do YOU think I should do? Apparently, you think my ignoring him is somehow unfair.

[Jennifer]

By the way, I will read any response from Ken or anyone else, but this is the last I have to say about this topic.

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Jennifer doesn't ignore me. She makes indirect remarks about me all the time.

[Pro Libertate]

Huh. That must be a Hit & Run record already. I wonder what the world record is for the longest blog comment thread? Of course, if we try to break it here, we may all be getting nastygrams from the Reason Foundation about blowing up their server 😉 On the other hand, I think a Guinness world record and the lead, "Libertarians running amok in comment thread", would be good press for Reason. Or not.

[Hakluyt]

Is there anyone who hadn't kept up with this conversation who would try to read through this many posts?

[Pro Libertate]

Heck, I'm thinking there's a PhD thesis in some discipline in analyzing this rather bizarre thread.

[Hakluyt]

Pro Libertate,

Its a record for Hit n' Run for sure. Honestly, I didn't think that nearly 1,000 posts was possible.

[Crushinator]

Hakluyt, Jennifer, Eryk -

If you continue these personal attacks then all of our Playboy readers will tune out. This forum was an oasis of sanity and intelligence. Has Entropy finally won and reduced this website to the the adolescent drivel found everywhere on the Internet? Thanksgiving was a sad holiday this year - marking the nadir of the H&R orbit. I enjoy participating in the intelligent discourse between well-informed individuals. It appears that I will have to seek this out on other forums after witnessing the 1000-post thread of childish gibberish we have here.

[Ken Shultz]

Why are you putting the onus on me, here?

I've been asking him what he wants in order to put it to rest, and I was going to ask you if that was good enough. If I put the onus on you, I apologize.

How do YOU think I should have responded, after, say, the twentieth or so insult he tossed at me (again, after I said nothing to or about him)?

I think I would have retaliated.

Tell me, Ken: next time I am having a conversation with another poster and Hak responds with various anti-Jennifer insults, what do YOU think I should do?

I don't know what you should do. I'm tryin' to figure out how to make it stop.

Apparently, you think my ignoring him is somehow unfair.

I don't think ignoring him is unfair. ...I do think encouraging other people to ignore him is unfair. ...and if he was willing to drop it for that, you'd take that deal wouldn't you?

[thoreau]

Ken Shultz is one of the most reasonable people on this forum.

God knows I haven't done anything to earn the courtesy of a follow-up compliment, but I'd like to see the longest thread ever end on the same high note that it started on. Somebody else compliment Ken too, and then yet another person can compliment the person who compliments Ken.

[Eddy]

Sounds like fun my PhD thesis is now to be titled "The Tangental Bipolar Divergence Analysis of Obliquely Bifurcated Involute Sapien Cognitions."

Are we there yet?

[Hakluyt]

Eddy,

Brilliant!

[Hakluyt]

Ken Shultz,

Like I wrote, I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet, etc. My elaborate scheme worked after all.

[Twba]

How do YOU think I should have responded, after, say, the twentieth or so insult he tossed at me (again, after I said nothing to or about him)?

I'm depressed because nobody insults me repeatedly. Won't someone help me?

[zeiner]

Rep. Randy Cunningham, Republican U.S. Congressman has pleaded guilty to "charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail and wire fraud, as well as tax evasion, for under-reporting his income in 2004."

I did not know that this was going on even though I try to read as much of the news as I can.

I think that the Republicans are messing up America, but this is definitely a sad day for the country. I sure hope that other corrupt politicians see this and change their ways.

Does anybody have an idea about how corrupt other politicians are in foreign countries and how bad they are compared to America?s corrupt politicians?

[Ken Shultz]

Taking thoreau's lead...

Political corruption is civilization's second oldest profession, and zeiner's wise to see that the Republicans are messing up America.

[zeiner]

I forgot to cite my source...I got if from "Voice of America." Here is the link: http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-28-voa57.

google news has it on their website.

[Eddy]

Does anybody have an idea about how corrupt other politicians are in foreign countries and how bad they are compared to America?s corrupt politicians?

Chips is chips.

[Pro Libertate]

Back to compliments then, thoreau. zeiner, you have an outstanding level of disgust for corruption.

Incidentally, I'd say we have a relatively low level of corruption (underline "relatively" ten times please) compared to most other countries. In some ways, I think it's the lower corruption that has kept us successful. Please remember my relative statement in commenting, thank you very much. And, I note for the record, I think our corruption is increasing, which is bad. Still, we're way behind, say, most African nations in that regard. I speak anecdotally, of course.

[dead_elvis]

I enjoy participating in the intelligent discourse between well-informed individuals. It appears that I will have to seek this out on other forums

HAR! I have yet to see a single internet forum that started out as a nice intelligent place not eventually degenerate.

There is a religion which believes that upon the 1000th post, the aliens come and take us to heaven.

[Viking Moose]

Dead Elvis certainly has lost weight!

[Hakluyt]

dead_elvis,

Do they wear Nikes?

[Hakluyt]

Viking Moose sure has big antlers.

[The Real Bill]

God told me that if this thread reaches 2000 posts Jesus will return.

[Eddy]

Hakluyt knows a good mousse when he sees one.

[Pro Libertate]

Ooh, ooh, dead elvis, do I get a power ring when the aliens arrive? Golly gee, I could do some neat stuff with a power ring.

[Eddy]

Eddy needs to get a faster net connection.

[Hakluyt]

Pro Libertate,

L. Ron Hubbard will be leading the aliens.

[Hakluyt]

Eddy makes good ice cream.

[Hakluyt]

Crap man, we've stalled. Hmmm....

"As a sphre between civil society and the state, in which critical public discussion of maters of general interest was institutionally guaranteed, the liberal public sphere took shape in the specific historical circumstances of a developing market economy." - Jurgen Habermas

Discuss.

[VIking Moose]

okay - Habermas is bullshit on stilts.

may he be caught in some bizarre love rectangle with L Ron Hubbard, Dr. Dobson, and a loving bowl of minestrone soup!

Hak is quite the swashbuckler!

[Pro Libertate]

You know something that surprises me? That Ayn Rand's more wacky followers don't say that she was an alien sent to guide us to the promised land. I mean, why not? In between moments of making sense in her novels, she throws in bizarre sexual rituals that are clearly from an extra-solar source. Am I wrong?

Of course, maybe living so close to Scientology is giving me strange ideas. Not to mention our asymptotic approach to 1000 posts. Egad.

[Hakluyt]

VM,

How dare you insult Habermas! Pistoles at twenty paces at dawn near Nueva Laredo!

[Hakluyt]

Pro Libertate,

Well, with her thoughts on the human mind being inevitable to exist that is surprising.

[Pro Libertate]

Habermas? You've got to be kidding me, Hakluyt. A better topic would be, "What would you do with aqua powers if there were no other superheroes AND no supervillians? Discuss".

Besides, you should've asked whether Heidegger retains any of his philosophical credentials after being a Nazi bastard. Much more interesting a question than anything doing with Habermas. Though I wish my name were Jurgen.

[Shawn Smith]

Pro Liberate,

We aren't going to get anywhere near a blog record, as Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) gets a few hundred posts in its average homepage thread, and the big ones (usually evolution / ID) get 4000+ in a single day. Heck, even The Leaky Cauldron (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/) (a Harry Potter site, sorry Hakluyt) gets threads with 2000+ posts. Of course, most of those threads are screaming matches, and truly adolescent behavior (netspeak and such), but still.

[Hakluyt]

What's up with that "Sleeper Cell" advertisement, BTW? How did we get tossed into that demographic?

[Hakluyt]

Shawn Smith,

4,000 posts? Holy crap.

[Eddy]

Politicians are aliens sent here to guide us to pro-messed land.

[Solitudinarian]

I've got to agree: Habermas sucks. But I'll be happy to discuss some other German philosopher, say, Nietzsche, the Grand Aphorist.

[Shawn Smith]

Yeah, Hakluyt, it was after I saw those kinds of numbers that I thought it just wasn't worth it trying to keep up. Now I just look at the headlines every once in a while.

[Pro Libertate]

Nietzsche sucks, too. Though I liked his spin on saying that the pre-Socratics were the pinnacle of philosophy. That's just too cool. Especially considering that we have about two sentences that have survived for about half of those besheeted fellows.

[Eddy]

Shawn Smith isn't falling behind on H&R.

[Solitudinarian]

Hmm, who does NOT suck, then?

[Solitudinarian]

By the way, I can live with being #999.

[Eddy]

How about Han Feizi or Mencius? Just pretend they're far east German. 🙂

[Hakluyt]

We have arrived! Bring on the aliens! 🙂

[Shawn Smith]

Thanks, Eddy. I like your comment more than the Shawnee Smith comment earlier (sorry, Jim Walsh--I'm a guy.)

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

You will be found and shown the instruments. 🙂

[Solitudinarian]

You will be found and shown the instruments.

Great! Can I use them on my students tomorrow?

[Jennifer]

One thousand.

[Jennifer]

Nope, 1006. Serves me right for not hitting
"refresh."

[Solitudinarian]

Hard to believe, but true.

[Hakluyt]

I am sure that the Reason server is absolutely having fits.

[Solitudinarian]

Serves it right.

[Eryk Boston]

You are all a bunch of Nazis.

Goodwin's Law has been invoked. We may now close this thread.

[dead_elvis]

Now that the aliens have *not* arrived and taken us all to heaven, I will not at all have to rethink the truth of that religion.

[Hakluyt]

Eryk Boston,

Exhaustion has set in I think.

[The Reason Server]

Daisy, daaaaaaa

iiiiiiii

sssssss

yyy...

[Cats]

All your base are belong to us.

[saw-whet]

The aliens won't be wearing Nikes, they will be Nikes.

So long and thanks for all the fish. Comments in the 700-900 range, not so much.

Server Fairy - Do your worst.

[saw-whet]

We should hold a vigil for the aliens at Trementina, New Mexico, the mountaintop ghost town.

[Stevo Darkly]

God told me that if this thread reaches 2000 posts Jesus will return.

Actually, I would like to see this thread hit 2,005 posts, as a way of closing out the year.

2,005 posts by Dec. 31, 2005!

And then we can make an agreement that we will make sure the first post of 2006, no matter what the topic, will reach 2,006 posts.

That would be cool.

[jf]

1019!

[kwais]

Stevo, that wouldn't really be that cool

[Isaac Bartram]

Now that the aliens have *not* arrived and taken us all to heaven,...

How do you know?

Hit & Run....heaven, how does one tell the difference? 🙂

[Eidetic]

I'm very late for this thread, but I would just like to add that I have things in common with both Hitler and Lenin

[Twba]

So I'm an Eagles fan because of Jaws, a Yankees fan because of Mr. October, and a Sixers fan because of Dr. J.

What else should we expect from a 16-year-old kid posting from his parent's basement?

Is Hakluyt a 32 year-old kid posting from his mother's basement? Do teenagers even know who Dr. J is?

But where Thoreau's concerned, Gary can't pretend to be more knowledgeable.

Neither knows everything.

[saw-whet]

In disaster related news, Sploid is off-line.

And we won't make it to 2005 posts once it gets rolled down to archive and hidden away. Even if people could find it again, we'd need a couple of long weekends to make it.

Sad thing is, the 2006th poster will be at 12:01 January 1 by a doughy 32 year old posting from his parents basement.

[Publicus]

Consider the horrors we try to protect our poor, innocent children from: violence in video games and tv, sex, and alcohol.

Maybe other Americans simply don't know anything about the rest of the world, but low age drinking is very common if not ubiquitous in many parts of Europe. Yet, they don't have the problems some people claim would result from underage drinking. During a recent trip to England I noticed pornography (including explicit intercourse and lesbian activity) on tv late at night. This was normal tv, not a premium channel such as the Playboy channel. I wonder why, after exposure to this, we don't see epidemics of teenage pregnancy and rape in England? Topless bathing in public is also very common in Europe, particularly in warm Mediterranean areas. How can children not be scarred for life after seeing actual breasts in public? And violence? Their kids see plenty of violence on tv and in video games also, but their crime rates are lower. The situation is much more extreme in Japan: Even shows for younger audiences feature levels of violence that would never be tolerated on the major networks in the U.S, yet Japan's violent crime rate is practically negligible compared to America's.

Clearly, the "see no evil, hear no evil, do no evil" solution is a failure. Our relatively overprotected children grow up to do worse than their foreign counterparts. The judge is right, children need to learn to deal responsibly with the presence of disturbing things, rather than living in a fantasy world before being thrown into the deep end upon reaching adulthood. Our society needs to change fundamentally: We must reject the Puritan heritage of labeling things taboo and sweeping them under the rug, and instead generate realisticresponses without the hypocrisy that pervades modern society.

To do this, we must change three things: the ignorance of the general public, the sensationalism of the media, and the reactionary attitude of many government officials. Government officials are voted in by the people, and they gain information from the media, so clearly if society is to improve the media must be changed.

This can be accomplished through the establishment of alternative media sources and the promotion of ideas rejected by the establishment. Call CNN's talkback live and catch the "How can we protect our poor children?" hypocrites with their pants down. Send letters to the editors of newspapers. Join groups such as the ACLU that have the power to make a real difference. Gradually, more people will come to realize what changes must be made for society to overcome the issues facing it.

As more people are freed from the brainwashing of existing society, things will change. We won't see stories about these charges against children for making a paper gun anymore. Instead, we will see more of the freedom of speech our nation's founders envisioned. Should we fear alcohol, which has been used responsibly by innumerable people for all of history? Should we hide violence, which is a fact of life people need to learn to deal with to survive? Should we avoid horrible sex at all costs, even though Ben Franklin was a member of the notorious Hellfire club, famed for its orgies, Thomas Jefferson had affairs, and Washington was known for his hedonism? Sex is not unconstitutional. Banning everything and sweeping problems under the rug is. Banning alcohol brought the disasters of prohibition and the rise of organized crime. Banning free speech will bring the downfall of America.

Once the necessary changes have been made, we will see a new America, one capable of leading the world morally as well as economically. In the new America, sex will be an activity enjoyed guiltlessly by everyone, even young children and lovers of animals. Public orgies will be common. Violent video games will be more popular than ever and violent tv shows will be far more explicit than those currently available, yet the crime rate will be low-because citizens will be responsible people living lives much more enjoyable than the restrained 1984-style prison existences we have now. Everyone will be able to drink themselves into a stupor whenever they feel like it. We will all own guns for our protection, there will be a chicken in every pot, every able bodied man and woman will have 40 acres and a mule, there will be a car in every garage, a house for every family, and truth and justice for all. This will be a land of both anarchy and democracy-for is not anarchy the abscence of a controlling authority, thereby giving all people equal power, and democracy rule by all the people sharing power equally? By the very definition of democracy our government is illegitimate! Fight for anarchy, morality, and the American Way! Down with the government! Take back the streets, it's time to riot!

[Hakluyt]

TWBA,

Is Hakluyt a 32 year-old kid posting from his mother's basement? Do teenagers even know who Dr. J is?

My parents don't have a basement. They live on a floodplain after all. Second, I haven't even seen my parents since the summer of 2004. Before that I hand't seen them since the summer of 2001. Before that I probably saw them once every two years for about fifteen years. I don't live with my parents. I travel way too much for me to live really anywhere. I do call and chat about once a month with them though.

Neither knows everything.

Jennifer's pathetic reasoning that because thoreau has a PhD in Physics that means he's superior to all comers on all subjects was pretty funny.

[smacky]

Heck, even The Leaky Cauldron (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/) (a Harry Potter site, sorry Hakluyt) gets threads with 2000+ posts. Of course, most of those threads are screaming matches, and truly adolescent behavior (netspeak and such), but still.

I don't get it. What's the difference between sites like those and this H&R thread?

As for Stevo's idea, I'm all for getting this thread to 2005. Hak asked if anyone who wasn't following the thread would bother reading all the posts. I got through maybe about 400 or so, which took up my entire morning at work yesterday, but when I realized I wasn't even halfway to the 862 mark yesterday, I quit reading, except maybe to look for funny Stevo Darkly comments or that sort of thing. I realized that it's not worth it for me to lose my job just so I can say I read the whole thread, which would indeed be pathetic. But still, I say go for it. Make this thread as disjointed and crap-ass as possible. I can talk about what I had for breakfast today; Hak can have his turrets fits; Stevo can link to his favorite porn websites; gaius marius can weep to his hearts content, and so on.

Send this thread to hell, people!

[smacky]

Why are you putting the onus on me, here?

I've been asking him what he wants in order to put it to rest, and I was going to ask you if that was good enough. If I put the onus on you, I apologize.

And by the way, I don't want to hear another word about anybody putting his anus on someone else or vice versa. That's disgusting.

[NoStar]

Ah yes, my favorite old time baseball player: Onus Wagner.

[bachwards]

What's this thread about?

[Stevo Darkly]

I predict the rate of posts to this thread will slow to a trickle now that it has slipped over the horizon. A shame, too, since we just managed to work "anus" into the discussion.

And I managed to work the words "anus" and "trickle" into the same short post, which is really disgusting.

Stevo can link to his favorite porn websites

Here's one that really looks nasty!

[Stevo Darkly]

Oh, silly typo!

[vabs]

Hak:

I'm curious. Do you have a "condition," and if so, what is it?

Thanks.
V.

[Pro Libertate]

Wow, it's bleak back here in archive land.