Gay Rights vs. Antidiscrimination Law
There's an interesting post up at Samizdata on how laws against discrimination by gender and sexual orientation could cause trouble for gay clubs. Paul Coulam writes:
Many gay businesses survive as such only because they can so explicitly discriminate, especially in their advertising. This ridiculous new law will be a very serious threat to the continuation of a 'gay scene' in many towns across the country. It is tricky to foresee all of the unintended consequences of this one. Gay clubs operate varying degrees of explicit discrimination depending on the locale or type of club. The strictest hard core gay cruise clubs generally operate a 'men only' door policy, which does the trick, but this itself may be or may become illegal - who knows what horrors of forced integration are still to come?
However many of the more general gay dance clubs operate what they advertise as a 'gay majority policy' which is usually employed to refuse entry to large parties of girls only. Gay clubs are often the best clubs in a particular town and tend to attract groups of girls who want a night away from predatory straight men. Of course the large numbers of unwary girls in these clubs itself attracts the straight men and before long the club has lost all appeal for gays. In the case of hotels there are lots of hotels in various, often remote, parts of the country that offer gay only accommodation and advertise as such. Will such advertising be illegal? In the short term after this absurd bill is passed clubs, bars and hotels will continue to operate discrimination informally but all it will take is some petulant activist or a council with a bee in its bonnet or some obsessive bureaucrat to stick their ore in to ruin some particular venue or business.
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Hmm Uhh, Gay culture is in danger of being overrun by straight guys trying to get in... Riiiiiiiiiight.
It is tricky to foresee all of the unintended consequences of this one.
Maybe that's because there will be none? Straight men have never clamored to get into gay clubs, and they won't in the future, either.
How did you know the post was interesting? Samizdata is impossible to read, because of that horrid color scheme they bizarrely insist on keeping.
Very frustrating, because otherwise it's my kinda site. Can't imagine how many potential readers (even converts!) they've turned away by rendering the site itself illegible.
I've never known a gay club to bar admittance to anyone willing to pay $15 for a martini. Especially "straight" guys.
A little OTS, but near where I live there is a famous male strip club for women. When I was 16 my driving instructor was a dancer there, and he told me the female patrons were animals.. a hundred times worst then a typical male customer at a girl club.
Anyway, I was talking to a middle-aged batchelor and he said he went to that male club all the time. He then quickly added that at a certain hour, the male dancing stops, and the club lets guys in the bar. By that time, the women are already drunk, and horny from watching all those perfect male bodies..
Fucking brilliant.
In unrelated news, every gay rights groups in the country is outraged over "Billy Bob's No-Fags Shitkickery and Grill."
This is interesting from a Sullivanesque "End of Gay Culture" point of view, in terms of gay society no longer being a spurned subculture. It wasn't the legality of antidiscrimination laws that kept straight guys out of your clubs, fellas. It was fear of catching teh gay.
I imagine it looking a lot like a trendy rock club, with sullen punks leaning against the wall, complaining about all the frat guys and sellouts taking over their place.
"Straight men have never clamored to get into gay clubs, and they won't in the future, either."
Maybe not straight men, but MANY straight couples. My wife and I will only dance at gay clubs because they're the only ones worth dancing at. The simple reality is that gays know how to party.
If you're looking for a good time, a gay club is the only way to go.
WSDave:
You just don't want bar-sharks hitting on your wife.
joe:
Were you one of those "punks" back in the day? 🙂
I, for one, rather enjoy the gay-club scene (mostly), and would get really cheesed off if all the Lincoln Park yuppies started screwing it up.
Y'alls have got Wrigleyville and Rush St., for christ's sake.
Oh no! Teh Gay are about to be hoist on their own petard! By swarms of fun-spoiling bigots!
Spare me.
Wouldn't it be interesting to re-write that item and substitute "black" for "straight" and "white" for "gay"? This is why any business should be allowed to do business with whatever customers they want (or refuse to do business with whoever they want). If somebody wants to have a club just for left-handed albinos with Jewish mothers, who what? It's amazing that some people would say that gays have a right to their own culture, but other groups don't (black, white, Hispanic, whatever). I don't want to patronize a place that discriminates on the basis of race or sexual orientation or whatever, but it's not my right to tell other people they can't do it.
This may seem far too obvious to point out, but I just wanted to note the fact that liberals who would probably support the rights of gays to have their own clubs wouldn't dare do the same for whites (or men, for that matter).
I'm impressed that a bunch of straight American men are able to stay so well informed that they know more than a gay Brit about the situation at London's gay clubs.
Oh no! The gays are about to be hoist on their own leotards! By swarms of fun-spoiling bigots!
Spare me.
I wasn't aware there were clubs that checked whether a patron was gay. (What do you have to do, kiss a bouncer of the same sex?) In my admittedly small experience with them, gay and lesbian bars just rely on reputation to filter out people who wouldn't be interested.
First of all, a bar or club that tried to admit men only would run afoul of gender discrimination laws; sexual orientation would have nothing to do with it.
Most gay bars, like most bars period, are just happy to have paying customers. I have never once seen or heard tale of a NYC gay bar that expressly or implicitly attempted to keep straight patrons out.
In fact, groups of straight women often frequent gay bars in NYC merely so they do not have to deal with being hit on all night.
Samizdata is impossible to read, because of that horrid color scheme they bizarrely insist on keeping.
First complaint I've heard. White type on dark blue isn't that bad, surely?
Besides, we've got bumpin' graphics.
"WSDave:
You just don't want bar-sharks hitting on your wife."
I don't mind at all, especially if s/he's cute.
Mistah Niceguy,
I like to think so, but I was probably closer to one of the sellouts they were glaring at.
I know hetero guys that went to gay bars to hit on the women who went there to avoid being hit on. 🙂
"Oh no! The gays are about to be hoist on their own leotards! By swarms of fun-spoiling bigots!"
Gee, Phil Jr, what an insightful comment. That certainly does a lot to move forward the debate on rights and discrimination.
Stereotyping gay men as leotard-wearing is both classy and original. Wow.
You are right, of course, that gay culture is monolithic. We're all skinny little sissy boys who hang out in dance clubs. None of us are overweight, unfashionable, middle-aged, guys who wouldn't be caught dead in a dance club.
You are the intellectual beacon of our age.
Ah may be up here in Heaven, but ya'll still have pick-axes down theah doncha?
RC Dean asked: "White type on dark blue isn't that bad, surely?"
Just about. It's not literally impossible to read, but it does give me a headache if I look at it for more than a few minutes.
Would the scenario the author is talking about also apply to the case where strip clubs don't let women in without a male escort. I know a number of strip clubs that don't allow women in because it would take the focus/attention away from the female dancers. Could these policies also run afoul of the anti-discrimination laws?
I have no problem with the Samizdata color scheme, but there are a lot of people with eye problems who can't easily read light text on dark backgrounds.
WSDave:
You bring up an interesting dynamic. If some stud was hitting on my wife/girlfriend, I would be totally pissed. But if a hot chick was doing the flirting, I would have a grin plastered on my face for a week. Like a kid at Christmas.
joe:
I was a total poseur in college. It was great.
As a straight guy, I've actually gotten more play from straight women at gay bars than at other bars. I lived about a half block away from a gay bar, and used to go there with a friend or two to shoot pool (the billards table was seldom used there). Quite often there would be fag hags there out on the town with gay friends in a nonthreatening environment. Chatting with these women was always easier, and when they found out I was straight, I had an in because my presence in a gay bar was prima facie evidence that I was open minded and not a gay-bashing schmuck (at least I think that's the way the thought process went).
Now, as a married guy with two gay ex-roommates, my wife and I like to hang out from time-to-time with the ex-roomies because, as WSDave points out, there's a party going on. There seems to be a laid back, esprit-de-corps thing happening at a lot of gay clubs that doesn't exist elsewhere. Oh, drinks are cheap at the gay bars I've visited (I haven't encountered that $15 martini).
Strip clubs don't let in women because they tend to be hookers. Tricks are saved for the employees.
"Would the scenario the author is talking about also apply to the case where strip clubs don't let women in without a male escort. I know a number of strip clubs that don't allow women in because it would take the focus/attention away from the female dancers..."
An alternate interpretation of this is that the
the male-escort requirement is to effectively exclude lesbian customers. I have heard that "straight" strip clubs featuring male dancers will not admit male customers.
R C Dean writes "White type on dark blue isn't that bad, surely?"
Well, Andrew Sullivan frequently notes the regularity with which his readers complain about the same color scheme. (Though he at least provides users an option for changing it.)
Part of it has to do with the fact that a large percentage of the population is saddled with at least some degree of astigmatism. When encountering a dark background, the iris opens to let in more light -- but this same involuntary response also exacerbates the astigmatic effect, making details (such as text) appear fuzzy and out of focus.
It's not an accident that sites catering to large audiences -- or wishing to -- stick with good old dark-text-on-light-background. There's tons of information out there about this stuff -- see, for instance, this primer on Web text color preferences.
Anyway, I suppose if I went to the trouble to create and run a political website, I'd take whatever simple steps were needed to ensure that my message was available to the maximum number of people. Stubbornly sticking with a color scheme that turns off a significant portion of my potential audience is one thing I'd certainly avoid.
(Quick note: Bad link under "primer" above. It's actually this.
Actually, I *used to be* one of the guys who went looking for unwary females at a local gay dance club. Not that it ever worked--the only attention I ever got was from the, err, 'wrong side of the aisle'. Anyway, this particular dance club rapidly became at least 50% hetero just in the short period I observed.
ChicagoTom: I think your scenario is unlikely to be brought up in court. Can't say I've ever met a woman who actually wanted to go to a tittie bar with her guy pal, let alone by herself. I know that some chicks do go to these places with their boyfriends, though--where were they when I was single????.
Full disclosure:
When I was a teenager, I pretended to be gay (not too much of a stretch honestly) so that I could get an "enthusiast" card for the now legendary Trax nightclub in DC. An awesome gay club that always held a tenuous grasp on it's "gay club" credentials due to all the straights and girls who liked to party there. THe enthusiast card allowed one to skip the lines and go directly to the front and yes you did have to be gay to get it (no I didn't have to "prove" it).
Yes, I did go through the lines outside on crowded nights and pick out cute girls to bring in with me. Hey, I was young.
ChrisO,
My ex-wife was one of those women who loved going to strip clubs. She enjoyed the view, but she also saw it as an opportunity to peddle her wares (she was an Aesthetician, waxing and such). The club owners had no problem with her handing out her cards, but they would not have allowed her to gyrate. THAT would have been bad for biz.
Any bars concerned about this could always try the decorating approach taken by the old club "The Vortex" in Chicago...
Lots of video walls of gay porn.
My ex-wife was one of those women who loved going to strip clubs. She enjoyed the view, but she also saw it as an opportunity to peddle her wares (she was an Aesthetician, waxing and such). The club owners had no problem with her handing out her cards, but they would not have allowed her to gyrate. THAT would have been bad for biz.
Did she want to gyrate? I love 'complicated' women! 🙂
On a somewhat unrelated theme, my friend used to go to those places pretending to be a Penthouse photographer. Yes, it occasionally worked, but then he was a talented actor and an "unusually good liar." Me, I just kept bemoaning the outflow of my dollar bills. Good thing I'm married now...
I was a punk before you were a punk.
"I know hetero guys that went to gay bars to hit on the women who went there to avoid being hit on. :)"
Hmmm, interesting idea. I wonder would that work.
kwais,
You are a good looking guy with a flat stomach and nice shirts.
The hours it would take to convince them that you aren't really gay would kill the momentum. I know this from first-hand experience.
Paradoxically, a somewhat more diverse gay-bar experience can be had not in bigger cities, but in smaller cities/college towns. Reasoning being that in a very large city, such as Chicago, there'll often be bars catering toward specific subcultures, while in smaller places with only one or two gay bars, they often wind up being the catch-all bars for queer people of all different varieties and genders. A big-city gay bar is definitely aimed at the gay male population... a smaller-town gay bar much less so.
I was dancing in the lesbian bar, uh-huh, uh-huh!
I don't see what the problem is. It's just like the common phenomenon of the gays moving into a somewhat blighted neighborhood, wagging about their magic wands, and turning it into the new new hip hood. Then the gays move on, and the hets stay and raise their families amidts well tended yards and sleek fixtures.
So the gays open splashy bars, which they enjoy exclusively for 12 - 18 months, before the hets invade. Then the gays move on to the next empty space or derelict watering hole, and the whole process carries on.
"We" tend to have rather short attention spans anyway and are always on the lookout for the NBT. Gay men (not so much our Sapphic sisters) really are the ultimate Capitalists- to wit, our taste for consumption and really our fatherhood of Postrel's "Substance of Style".
And maybe one of those studly little breeder boys out on the prowl will have a few too many apple martinis (yes, at $15 a pop - style ain't cheap) and he'll discover his long sublimated urge to merge with another swinging fella. As Paris would say, HOT!
GM, the gay men have been in East Lakeview for many a year, and haven't moved on yet. They do seem to be seeping into Andersonville, though, which is typically lesbian turf.
Can't say I've ever met a woman who actually wanted to go to a tittie bar with her guy pal, let alone by herself. I know that some chicks do go to these places with their boyfriends, though--where were they when I was single????.
My wife and I used to go to strip clubs together quite frequently early on in our relationship. The would let her in with me, but if she tried to go alone or with a girlfriend they wouldn't let her in. My (straight) sister and a female friend of hers also tried to get into a "tittie bar" and was denied access. Again women could only go if they were part of a couple.
It seems like these rules would prevent lesbians who want to get lap dances and see nekkid women from having any options. Also, many strip clubs have cheap liquor and I know quite a few women who wouldnt mind getting shitfaced for a low price and also watch the working girls put on a show. Also straight many women have told me, they think that the female body is more attractive than the male body when not fully dressed and even though they prefer the company of men in the bedroom, they enjoy seeing beautiful women dance (more than they would enjoy seeing male dancers).
I wasn't aware there were clubs that checked whether a patron was gay
Most recently at the Vegas shindig I couldn't figure out why this rather large black man with bleached out hair was hitting on me in the bar after the show on Friday night. My immediate reaction was WTF are you doing? That was funny so he kept giving me shit the rest of the night. Mrs TWC told me that Reason had taken over what is ordinarily a gay bar. Other than that you would never have known and it never occurred to me at the time that it might be a gay bar.
In other cases I have been discreetly informed that the establishment was in fact gay. The few times that this has happened I politely asked if straights aren't welcome and have never been booted.
In still other cases it is fairly obvious that you just walked into the wrong bar and it's time to leave. Not a whole lot different than walking into a bar and seeing a bunch of Hells Angels and deciding to move along.
Gay men (not so much our Sapphic sisters) really are the ultimate Capitalists- to wit, our taste for consumption and really our fatherhood of Postrel's "Substance of Style".
Absolutely, and the median income for gay men is, well, way the hell up there.
There have been lesbian strip clubs here in DC before. Where there is a demand, well, you know..
Of course I would love to be able to go to one of these places, just once to people-watch. But I find myself in the funny situation of fully supporting my own exclusion. After all, my being there would change the entire context. The whole point of the exercise is that I wouldn't be there.
Why haven't we heard from smacky on this topic? She likes gay men.
Strip clubs have cheap liquor? I'm obviously going to the wrong ones.
Strip clubs have cheap liquor? I'm obviously going to the wrong ones.
When I was in college in the 80's in DC I hung with a rather diverse crowd and the only place to go dancing - with girlfriends -- was the gay clubs. Straigh clubs had zip: it was like the recently ended reign of disco had made dancing anathema to most straight men or something....
MK: Trax? That takes me back. You hang out at Badlands much?
RE Samizdata color scheme. White lettering on a dark backdrop can be tiring for the eyes. From day one I have been black on white.
"Paradoxically, a somewhat more diverse gay-bar experience can be had...in smaller cities/college towns...in smaller places with only one or two gay bars, they often wind up being the catch-all bars for queer people of all different varieties and genders."
That's been my experience. The only time I've ever been called the F word (refers to sea creature) by gay men upon entering a gay bar was in San Francisco. In the college town I used to live in, the gay bars welcomed anyone who patronized them as long as s/he wasn't there to make trouble.
For context, I've been to plenty other gay bars in SF and was never again made unwelcome. And those guys at the one place were somewhat prescient. Within two months of my first visit, the place was a screamingly het hipster bar where the old gay guys were hopelessly out of place. Maybe their demographics (older, unhip) and the fact that the place was a hideaway far from the Castro had something to do with their attitudes as well.
Paradoxically, a somewhat more diverse gay-bar experience can be had not in bigger cities, but in smaller cities/college towns.
I totally agree. I much preferred the Buffalo scene--where there was one good club on any given night--to New York, where there are many, many places but each is full of clones.
I imagine it looking a lot like a trendy rock club, with sullen punks leaning against the wall, complaining about all the frat guys and sellouts taking over their place.
Comment by: joe at November 9, 2005 02:01 PM
Yes I used to complain when the Ratskeller went to the dogs several years ago. One of my favorite hangouts, gone... sigh. And now, Manray is gone too, where on earth will I go to see the next VNV Nation performance.
TWC:
"In other cases I have been discreetly informed that the establishment was in fact gay. The few times that this has happened I politely asked if straights aren't welcome and have never been booted."
I can't see that ever happening. Primarily, because gay people, being traditionally discriminated against, wouldn't want to do that to others.
"In still other cases it is fairly obvious that you just walked into the wrong bar and it's time to leave. Not a whole lot different than walking into a bar and seeing a bunch of Hells Angels and deciding to move along."
An unfortunate analogy. Outlaw bikers have a well-deserved reputation for territoriality and violence -- they self-select based on this and similar characterstics. Gay people are neither more nor less violent than the population at large.
Thought exercise for all you hetero readers: Imagine that you're a member of a generally detested minority group and that a certain sort of bar is the only place where you can be yourself without fear of being beaten up, arrested, or ejected.
our taste for consumption and really our fatherhood of Postrel's "Substance of Style".
Thankfully, not ALL of us fit THAT particular stereotype. As anyone who attended the recent NYC shindig can attest, I have little style - nor do I care to.
Ok, I nominate this as "best thread of the day"!!
It seems like these rules would prevent lesbians who want to get lap dances and see nekkid women from having any options.
Which is interesting, considering that I've been informed that a very high percentage of exotic dancers are lesbian. I don't know, I say let the "Sapphic sisters" in--it would just make the whole experience a lot more interesting. But what the heck do I care now? I'm married and those places are strictly off-limits now.
Also, many strip clubs have cheap liquor
They do? I've never experienced that. However, I've been to strip clubs where you can get a really good and cheap steak dinner--very weird experience to eat dinner with a woman's private parts a few inches away...
Also straight many women have told me, they think that the female body is more attractive than the male body when not fully dressed and even though they prefer the company of men in the bedroom...
Every women I know thinks this way, and yet they don't want to see the beautiful female naked body in person. Probably a good thing, though. Last thing my family needs is *two* people feverishly waving dollar bills at the dancers.... 🙂
Strip clubs don't let in women because they tend to be hookers. Tricks are saved for the employees.
You've got to stop learning about the world from teen movies, sweetie.
I danced in a lesbian strip club once. Based on this experience, I feel qualified to generalize that North Carolina lesbians treat strippers better and give them bigger tips than do North Carolina straight guys.
I saw VNV at the former (busted for drugs) Limelight in NYC - an old converted church. One of the best shows ever. They have an annoying gay night on Sundays where there seems to be a *maximum* age limit of around 21.
"White type on dark blue isn't that bad, surely?"
Aaaaaargh! This happens to be a pet peeve of mine.
Light-colored type on a dark or black background (unless you confine it to limited usage, like a headline, or a poster with just a little text on it) is much harder to read than dark type on a light background. It takes more effort to read, and tires the eye more quickly. This is an oldie from Advertising 101. And monitors are even harder on the eyes than print.
But because it looks cool (if you aren't actually trying to read it), white type on a dark or black background tends to be beloved by graphic designers who don't give a damn about readership. Otherwise no one would do it.
Aaaaaargh.
Although if you really try, it is possible to be even more unreadable, however. I have no idea what the hell this guy was thinking. Before he redesigned his site, I used to visit it whenever I got a jones for pterosaur info. Now the site is basically unusable, at least on my monitor.
Remember:
Black on white: Works every time.
White on black: An unreadable crime.
Dark green on black: All sense lack.
And now, Manray is gone too, where on earth will I go to see the next VNV Nation performance.
What what what? Manray is gone?
That said, Bauhaus concert tonight at the Vic!
ok, i am against these anti-discrimination laws on principle. but as a gay man nauseated by typical gay culture, i would certainly derive a lot of guilty pleasure in watching the collapse of the bar/bathhouse/danceclub scene. if only there was a chance of it actually happening. are any heteros gonna go to court over being denied entry to a club where they can tweak and listen to deafening repetitive noise?
I can't see that ever happening. Primarily, because gay people, being traditionally discriminated against, wouldn't want to do that to others.
It happens I think in order to prevent any embarrasment, not because straights aren't wanted.
Steven:
I was supposed to go see them at the Agora on the 19th, but can't. Let me know how the show is.
I've been informed that a very high percentage of exotic dancers are lesbian.
Do you mean lesbian, or "lesbian"?
Hey Jennifer, what's an estimate of the breakdown of straights to lesbians in stripping, in your experience at least? The idea that a larger portion than usual of them are lesbian sounds questionable to me.
What what what? Manray is gone?
Yeah I heard it closed down a few months ago. I have fond memories of the place - my first introduction to the S&M culture (imagine my surprise when I walked into the bar on S&M night with no clue that was what it was) where I had a certain dominatrix complain to me all night about how her high heels were killing her calves and that she had worn high heels for so long her calves had gotten shorter, and how she had to take pain killers each time she had to do her dominatrix gig. I think that was also my first introduction to just too much oversharing on the part of bar patrons.
Shem--
I say it's a myth. Of course, the few who were played it up for all they could, and a lot more would indulge in a bit of showmanship. Even a simple bare-breasted hug on the stage would result in veritable showers of dollars from the audience.
No offense, and thank goodness for this, but you guys can be pretty foolish sometimes.
As overshare goes, that's pretty tame. 😉
Alright already. I will pass your gripes on to the management.
I have no idea what the hell this guy was thinking.
That site wins the prize - what a mess!
A dominatrix complaining about pain. That's heavy.
Jennifer-Thanks. I figured as much. After all, there's nothing about stripping that would appeal specifically to lesbians, so unless there's some crypto-lesbian world conspiracy going on it doesn't make sense for that most of them to be homosexual.
Steven Crane,
That kind of sharing in such an environment was rather new to me at the time, in addition to the questions of whether I like the feel of heels on certain tender areas of my body.
So do we have any suggestions for a replacement to the Rat and Manray or is this the end of punk and alternative bars in the Boston/Cambridge area?
I wouldn't know... I only know of Manray from anecdote and reputation, and know next to nothing of Boston in general.
Perhaps joe will urban-plan some good darkwave music-playing clubs around.
Re Samizdata... I'm in the same boat as all the folks above. I just can't do the white-on-blue thing. Very hard on my eyes.
But good luck with the management... People have been complaining for years about the colour scheme over at that site, and as far as I know, they've been brusquely brushed off every time. (I remember somebody over there always responding that people could just click the "print preview" button if they dared to have trouble reading white-on-blue.) Of course, if that attitude has changed, I wouldn't know, because I'm one of those who had to give up trying to read the site.
Perhaps joe will urban-plan some good darkwave music-playing clubs around.
Comment by: Steven Crane at November 9, 2005 05:21 PM
lol
Joe, paging Joe. Don't make me send the peeps with the whips and chains and piercings after you.
This is the most nicest and most agreeable thread I've seen on here in a while. And all it took was a post about gay night clubs? Hey now.
Wait--this was the Boston Man Ray you're talking about? I didn't know it was an S&M club--I just went there at times because they had good bands in concert sometimes. Every time I saw Faith and the Muse play, it was at the Man Ray.
Oh, man, that's depressing.
TWC pointed out that gay men tend to have a higher median income. I've heard this several places, and am just curious about whether anyone has an idea of why that would be.
And can I bump up my income if I change teams?
Joe, paging Joe. Don't make me send the peeps with the whips and chains and piercings after you.
I don't know about joe's proclivities... but I, for one, welcome our new latex-clad, high-heeled female overlords.
People have been complaining for years about the colour scheme over at that site, and as far as I know, they've been brusquely brushed off every time.
They're like the fashion victim who pains our eyes with their ridiculous choice of dress. This sort of trendy web design went out of style around 1998; I wonder if anyone has pointed out to them that painful design leads to less revenue...?
No offense, and thank goodness for this, but you guys can be pretty foolish sometimes.
What do you mean "sometimes." 🙂
Seriously, a friend of mine was interested in strippers from a more 'anthropological' perspective and was able to get quite a few to talk in various cities to him candidly away from the stage--he even dated a few. And he says that they told him that. Me, I don't know nuthin'...
Perhaps joe will urban-plan some good darkwave music-playing clubs around.
LOL
TWC pointed out that gay men tend to have a higher median income. I've heard this several places, and am just curious about whether anyone has an idea of why that would be.
I understood him to mean higher *disposable* income, in which case the answer is obvious: no kids.
GM,
"It's just like the common phenomenon of the gays moving into a somewhat blighted neighborhood, wagging about their magic wands, and turning it into the new new hip hood. Then the gays move on, and the hets stay and raise their families amidts well tended yards and sleek fixtures."
Which is exactly why I have a "Please move here if your homosexual!" sign in my front yard. My 'hood could use some sprucing up...
After all, there's nothing about stripping that would appeal specifically to lesbians, so unless there's some crypto-lesbian world conspiracy going on it doesn't make sense for that most of them to be homosexual.
Actually, it makes perfect sense to me. I would think that it would be emotionally easier for a woman to be an exotic dancer if she saw men as merely a bunch of useless, dollar-throwing meat.
Perhaps the dancers engage in lesbianism of convenience, considering that some of them probably have abusive menfolk in their background, don't want possessive/jealous boyfriends, etc.
Can we revisit the bare-breasted hug bit?
Rywun-I've also heard (although I'm too lazy to source it) that gay men have a higher overall median income, which really can't be explained by the lack of kids unless kids have an effect on overall income levels. Maybe they do.
Either way, it's an interesting phenomenon, presuming it's real.
Jen,
"Even a simple bare-breasted hug on the stage would result in veritable showers of dollars from the audience.
No offense, and thank goodness for this, but you guys can be pretty foolish sometimes."
A fool and his money are soon partying...
I've also heard (although I'm too lazy to source it) that gay men have a higher overall median income
Huh, I'd be curious to know why. I'm also too lazy to look it up. Maybe it's an effect of self-identification--lower income communities seem to be less supportive of gays.
Tonio:
I can't see that ever happening. Primarily, because gay people, being traditionally discriminated against, wouldn't want to do that to others.
Are you serious? Have you heard/seen of the protestors outside of Badlands in SF? Gays have no immunity from being jerks or racists or discriminatory, and minority gays often get the short end of the stick from rich stuck-up gay businessmen and bar owners.
You hang out at Badlands much?
Well, there was a time when I had a flat stomach and nice shirts, but I was never quite at the Badlands level so no.
Steven,
I'm going to see Bauhaus on the 22nd. I'm very excited. I've probably been to a thousand concerts but I've never seen them.
ChrisO-The assumption that lesbians would be more easily able than straights to view men as slabs of meat with ATM machines installed seems pretty fallacious. I knew a lesbian stripper once, and she seemed to possess genuine, if extremely distant affection for the non creepy segment of her clientele. Meanwhile, more than a few of her ostensibly straght co-workers indulged in what could charitibly be called gold-digging.
Have you heard/seen of the protestors outside of Badlands in SF? Gays have no immunity from being jerks or racists or discriminatory
What's the story behind that?
Rhywun
Maybe it's an effect of self-identification--lower income communities seem to be less supportive of gays.
I have no data for this, but I completely agree. The majority of gays you see on the internet lurking in chatrooms who are minorities are closeted, and deeply (i kinda sorta used to be one).
Couple of points: I started bringing my straight male friends to the local gay watering hole, and damn did they have fun. Assuming they weren't going specifically to try to meet a girl (or else had their gf with them), they loved it. They look very straight, so all the gay boys love them, and they get lots of attention, and, as mentioned above, gays know how to party. The straight female friends I've taken there love it too, for the reasons posted above.
Strip clubs: trying to find a (male dancer) strip club in Las Vegas that accepted gay men was very hard. Ever weirder, though, was that no one had a clear answer! Different doormen and concierges gave varying answers: "with a girl, a guy can enter a male dancer area", "this club allows men in" but it didn't, "this club allows guys during the day". Every place had a different answer. I think basically all the male dancer clubs are "no men allowed" and they don't want to come out and say it. In Vegas, it's go to the Fruit Loop or go home...
Rhy:
http://andcastroforall.com/
Not embracing or saying I agree, but it's big. On SF Gay Pride, they were marching in front of BL, trying to get people to leave.
On a completely bizarre note that day, we noticed that a homeless guy had hopped in line with the protesters and was marching with them in a 5 foot radius circle, just along for the ride.
I would think that it would be emotionally easier for a woman to be an exotic dancer if she saw men as merely a bunch of useless, dollar-throwing meat.
What an interesting and inadvertently revealing thing to say.
I'm going to see Bauhaus on the 22nd. I'm very excited. I've probably been to a thousand concerts but I've never seen them.
jf, mk,
I'm seeing Bauhaus on the 19th at the Agora! It will be my first time seeing them, too.
Steven Crane,
I like effeminate guys, not gay guys. What use is a gay guy to me?
Not that I have anything against gay guys.
And just for the record, I don't like effeminate guys exclusively. Just a trait that I sometimes find attractive, if it suits the person well.
Jennifer--
LOL.
Is Chris channeling his own inner angry lesbian? 🙂
I'm just teasing you, smacky.
😉
Steven Crane,
I think I knew that... 🙂
When I am trying to catch up on work that I've been procrastinating on, humor is lost on me.
Have fun at the Bauhaus show tonight!
Oh, I should've mentioned this much earlier in the thread (as a public service annoucement):
THE NEW KATE BUSH DOUBLE CD WAS RELEASED YESTERDAY
Pick it up if you know what's good for you!
[/trying not to wet my pants in excitement]
Stevo Darkly,
Ok, now I am officially weird. The light type on dark background reminds me (fondly) of my early programming days on dumb ADM-5a terminals. The light background, although usable, tends to noticeably flicker too much to me.
As for unreadable, try dark blue text (#0000D0) on a red orange (#B04000) background. I've seen a screen of a guy who was color-blind who set that up as his default color scheme. Uggghhh.
I went to a gay bar once because they let me bring my hand gun. ( at least that's what I think they meant when I was told everyone there was packin' )
At least they let me smoke, unlike the regular straight bars.
*A little off Topic*
"Amendment Banning Gay Marriage Passes Senate Subcommittee"
Access to the article is on http://www.cspanschoolbus.org/
Direct link to the article: http://www.kansas.com//mld/kansas/news/state/13125336.htm
Does anybody have any predictions?
Tonio, the analogy to outlaw bikers is unfortunate but I absolutely wasn't comparing the attitudes of outlaw bikers to gays. Rather it was an attempt to make the point that sometimes a person simply knows he's walked into the wrong place. Like that Indian bar in Fallon Nevada......After the flaming arrow chunked into the door jamb we had just walked through, Brotzman said, hey, TWC, we gotta go...
I'm not clear why you find it less than believable that a matre 'd would quietly mention to an obviously straight couple waiting for a table something to this effect: you did realize that this is a gay establishment? That seems an obvious yet discreet way to avoid several potential problems.
What an interesting and inadvertently revealing thing to say.
What did I inadvertently reveal? Call me clueless. Just my half-baked theory. To a degree, I've always wondered if that's how all exotic dancers view their 'clients'. And if it is, I could certainly understand it.
Is Chris channeling his own inner angry lesbian? 🙂
Now *that's* funny!! 🙂
I'm probably not rough'n'tough enough for that...
http://andcastroforall.com/
I dunno. Frankly, I take everything I read regarding SF politics with a grain of salt. While it's certainly true that lots of gays are just as bigoted as the general population (especially in Buffalo--holy crap! It seemed like every other guy I dated started spouting the vilest garbage after about a couple weeks...), I'm a little skeptical that the owner of a "popular club" would intentionally bring this on himself. Or, maybe he's just dumb. Or, maybe a certain group of people were causing problems and they all shared a certain ancestry. People get kicked out of clubs all the time. It's hard to judge without being there.
NEW KATE BUSH DOUBLE CD
Did she do anything after "Running Up That Hill"? 🙂
"You are a good looking guy with a flat stomach and nice shirts.
The hours it would take to convince them that you aren't really gay would kill the momentum. I know this from first-hand experience."
Well, I guess thank you. The nice shirt thing is a recent contribution from my brother. I think him and Smacky should meet. But I have been told, that unlike my brother, I am one that would never be confused for a gay man. I am not sure if that is an insult or not. Maybe that was a pre-nice shirt comment.
Oh, and gay people are just as likely to be discriminative as any one else. Matter of fact I often am under the impression that people who have been discriminated against are more likely to discriminate against others. That may or may not be true.
Also earlier some one mentioned the F word that means sea creature. Is the original meaning of "Fag" a sea creature? Anyone know the story on that one? Or is it another F word?
Well kwais, if it makes you feel better, when I met you in NYC I didn't think for a moment that you were gay 🙂
And I believe the F word in question is "fish". It's used by certain repellent gay men to refer to the opposite sex.
Rhywun,
If I didn't know from your posts, I wouldn't have thought you were gay either. I don't know if that means anything.
So "fish" is derrogatory then? What are the connotations? Why "fish"?
Well kwais, if it makes you feel better, when I met you in NYC I didn't think for a moment that you were gay 🙂
Cool, so I could ostensibly go to a gay bar to meet women who are trying to escape men like myself? (ideally they are trying to escape men like myself, not myself).
afraid of catchin' teh gay?
I know at least some of you here have expressed some concern over this "so called" avian bird flu
However, Ive been havin' some homo erotic dreams of late! I expect that I'll soon be hanging out at the STUD bar before to long!
It's not contagious! No really, it's not
NEW KATE BUSH DOUBLE CD
Did she do anything after "Running Up That Hill"? 🙂
Comment by: Rhywun at November 9, 2005 11:22 PM
I think her biggest contribution to listenable music was being sampled by Utah Saints for Something Good and What Can You Do For Me.
What did I inadvertently reveal?
Chris, your statement, like great art, can be interpreted multiple ways. Let's see--it's easier to be a paid dancer if you feel contempt for the ones who pay you? It's natural to feel contempt for an audience member unless said member's gender is such that you might possibly want to have sex with him? At the very least you're assuming that misandry is a valuable and common trait for a dancer.
snap snap, Steven Crane! 🙂
Pigskin bus, VM. Pigskin bus to tuna town.
You didn't seem the slightest bit gay to me kwais. It's just that when one is in a gay bar, people tend to assume that you are gay. A fair assumption methinks.
Like I was hinting at earlier, I have actually dated girls that I met at gay bars, but even months later they will still occasionally ask you if you are "sure" that you aren't gay. Once the seed of doubt is sown etcetera..
Chris, your statement, like great art, can be interpreted multiple ways. Let's see--it's easier to be a paid dancer if you feel contempt for the ones who pay you? It's natural to feel contempt for an audience member unless said member's gender is such that you might possibly want to have sex with him? At the very least you're assuming that misandry is a valuable and common trait for a dancer.
I like the "great art" bit! 🙂
Actually, all I really meant to imply was the "locker room theory"--that it would seem easier for a dancer to get nekkid in front of those patrons with whom she has no inclination toward sexual attraction or activity. My grotesque turn of phrase "useless dollar-throwing meat" was probably overkill for that relatively innocuous point, but once it popped into my head, I just HAD to use it!
You're right, though, it also implies actual contempt towards a dancer's patrons, not merely a carefree attitude toward nakedness. I've wondered about that--what do dancers really think of their customers? I'm sure it varies based on the dancers and the customers.
you bet SC!
pigskin bus. sher better than the 151 up michigan... 🙂
all I really meant to imply was the "locker room theory"--that it would seem easier for a dancer to get nekkid in front of those patrons with whom she has no inclination toward sexual attraction or activity.
True enough--I wouldn't have wanted someone I was actually dating, or interested in dating, going in and sitting at the stage, back when I was dancing. But as for my attitude toward my average customer--there's a huge difference between "I don't want to have sex with you" versus "I think you're useless dollar-throwing meat."
I think him and Smacky should meet.
kwais,
Why, because he's effeminate?
metalgrid and Rhywun,
Why do you hate Amer-- uh, Britain?
True enough--I wouldn't have wanted someone I was actually dating, or interested in dating, going in and sitting at the stage, back when I was dancing. But as for my attitude toward my average customer--there's a huge difference between "I don't want to have sex with you" versus "I think you're useless dollar-throwing meat."
But my point was a little broader than that. I would find it more awkward to be naked in the presence of women strangers, even women who I was not attracted to, as compared to male strangers, based on our social taboo against such things. I was simply wondering if a lesbian's feelings on that would run counter--that being naked in front of men would have no emotional resonance for her. Having actually done that sort of work, do you think you would have felt differently dancing in front of women, whether they straight or lesbian?
Just idle speculation on my part. Heck, even if I wasn't married, I've turned into such a cheapskate in early middle age, that I would feel weird spending my money that way nowadays. I fret over whether buy a cup of coffee... 🙂
Fie upon the Kate Bush-hatas.
Chris--
I only danced topless. I figured it wasn't that different from being on a beach in Europe. Big deal.
Kwais, with all due respect I can't believe you had to ask the fish question. Reminds me of that awful joke my father used to tell about the blind guy who walked past the fish market every morning, turned his head, tipped his hat and said, well, never mind...
And I thought fags were cigarettes.....
Why, because he's effeminate?
He's metrosexual. He is the one that picked out the shirts for me. He gets people thinking that he's gay.
Chris O,
I wouldn't mind dancing nakked in front of women, depending on my mood. But I wouldn't do it if there were any men present.
with all due respect I can't believe you had to ask the fish question
Dude, I still don't get it. It is obviosly not a reference to "well there are other fish in the sea"