Whether Loud Be Her Cheers or Soft Be Her Tears

The riots in France have now spread to 300 towns, and have claimed their first fatality. Gregory Djerejian offers a weary comment on the chaos:

I am not one who believes that some pan-Eurabian intifada is in the offing, or that the implications of these riots rival 9/11, or that Shamil Basayev's guerilla tactics are being adopted off la Place de la Republique--as breathless, under-informed 'commentary' has it in some quarters of the blogosphere. But we certainly have a pivot point here, one where the ruling elite's inefficacy and ineptness is being laid crudely bare for all the world to see. They have been tone-deaf and caught off guard by the depth of the alienation in their midst, and it has now caught them very much unawares and seemingly clueless on how next to respond.

Djerejian wouldn't agree, but one especially clueless response came from Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Here's Doug Ireland's description:

"Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille" -- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequacy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum." But these two words have an infinitely harsher and insulting flavor in French. "Karcher" is the well-known brand name of a system of cleaning surfaces by super-high-pressure sand-blasting or water-blasting that very violently peels away the outer skin of encrusted dirt -- like pigeon-shit -- even at the risk of damaging what's underneath. To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering "ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so. It implies raw police power and force used very aggressively, with little regard for human rights. I wonder how many Anglo-American correspondents get the inflammatory, terribly vicious flavor of the word in French? The translation of "karcherise" by "clean" just misses completely the provocative, incendiary violence of what Sarko was really saying. And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to French-speakers -- it has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless…

Meanwhile, it took President Chirac 11 days to make any public comment about the riots at all.

Comments

[Hakluyt]

They have also spread to Belgium.

[Deus ex Machina]

So much for Europe feeling morally superior for not abandoning their underclass like in New Orleans.

[luisa]

I don't understand--why is the comment called clueless? It seems to offer some useful insight.

[rox_publius]

it's a horrifying revelation of my own irrational hatred that i find myself pleased that those who would tell us to conduct our business have the results of their own failed policies to deal with.

logically, i realize that ultimately instability in france and elsewhere creates negative consequences for us all, but still... the satisfaction is there. i guess i'm not the bigger man.

[Deus ex Machina]

I wonder if Sarkozy has just permanently blew his chances for the presidency by his (in)actions?

[Jesse Walker]

Luisa: I accidentally posted an incomplete version of this blog entry for a couple of minutes, and I assume you're responding to that. Just to be clear: I think it's Sarkozy's comment, not Ireland's, that's clueless.

[mediageek]

Meanwhile, it took President Chirac 11 days to make any public comment about the riots at all.

What? Not even a flyover in L'Arm?e de l'Air Un?

[LennyBruce]

And they say Dick Cheney is mean.

[Hakluyt]

Deus ex Machina,

That depends on how the white part of the French electorate responds.

rox_publius,

Such "Chicken Roosting" commentary has been common since this all erupted. You can take comfort that you aren't alone.

[Deus ex Machina]

Does anyone know how far-right leader Jean-Marie LePen has responded to this situation?

[Eric the .5b]

I have to wonder just how terribly violent the rioting is for it to spread to 300 cities, but take this long for a fatality.

[Hakluyt]

Deus ex Machina,

Yes, he wants to institute martial law in the effected areas based on a law enacted in 1955 to deal with unrest associated with the war in Algeria. The details of such measures are are pretty draconian, and they include roadblocks in certain areas, the breaking up of any unauthorized meetings, and the litany of other things you would see with martial law. Oh, and harsh prison terms for anyone who violates these measures. I could keep reading the Front National's website and tell you more if you'd like.

(BTW, I believe its his daughter tha runs the organization more now than he does, as he is getting into his dottage.)

[Hakluyt]

Eric the .5b,

There have been a number of very serious injuries, including a bus driver who was set on fire.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering "ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so

Huh? I'd say cleaning the ghettos of scum is fairly provocative and an apparently accurate interpretation. That it may not be perfectly precise is open to interpretation. Or maybe Ireland has his own agenda.

Hey, they should just let them burn down the entire city. That'll show them how open minded the Frogs are.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a system of order to protect the populace from criminals?

[Calypso Louie Farrakhan]

These are the end times.
Grab your ankles, crackers.

[NoStar]

THIS JUST IN:
In the midst of the fighting in the worst of the French riots a Football (soccer) game broke out.

[Le Bush]

Brownie, vous faites une estacade claire-voie d'un travail.

[Jason Ligon]

This would seem to be a problem not made better by the equivalence of ethnicity with national identity in much of the world. We've already had this struggle to an large degree, but we had the advantage of not having an institutionalized ethnicity for American citizenship.

[dixie]

Context of the "a Karcher" remark: "Mr. Ajir, a 29-year-old social worker, lives in La Courneuve, a suburb north of Paris where an 11-year-old boy was killed by a stray bullet earlier this year. During a visit to the projects where the boy was shot, Mr. Sarkozy vowed to clean them with "a Karcher," the brand of a German-made high-powered hose. Some observers say that comment, which got widespread coverage in the French media, planted the seeds of the current violence. (f/Hurry Up Harry)

[saw-whet]

"Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a system of order to protect the populace from criminals?"

It appears to be Hakluyt's job to correct us all when we are wrong. I'll praise you for being right and reminding us of what is fundamental.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Joe, excellent point about LAPD and Gates. I don't know why they did it, but I watched the LA cops run, on national TV.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Saw-Whet, I appreciate your comments--why don't you sidle on over to Reason oak bar (second longest oak bar online) and I'll buy you a glass of red.

[SR]

Building on Eric .5b's comment above, I have to add, it took 12 days of "riots" to get one fatality? There are pick-up basketball games in Detroit with higher body counts!

[Hakluyt]

SR,

As I recall, ~50-60 people died in the L.A. riots.

[Jaybird]

There is nothing to worry about. The Archduke was pretty much the only casualty of note on July 13th. While this was a horrible thing to have happened, those who are predicting that it is an indicator of far worse things to come are engaging in their usual hyperbole.

[Ruthless]

I'm gleefully rubbing my hands together because I'm about to get many libertarian converts to anarchism.
Governments will not be able to do anything about this; just as they are helpless in the face of Bush's War on Terror.
The only solution is to turn down the heat on the afflicted, not put a lid on them. Even then, there's going to be a whole lot more boiling over.

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

What do you suggest be done about the rape gangs which prey on young women in the banlieus? Are the rape gangs also part of this "afflicted" group?

[quasibill]

"Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a system of order to protect the populace from criminals?"

Well, it may reflect a difference between a Hobbesian libertarian and a Lockeian. The Hobbes types claim that government creates order and security. The Locke types say that order and security are created by society, which gives government certain powers to reflect the fact that they value order and security.

What's happening in France, while tremendously overblown, as well as what's happening in Iraq, are telling indictments of the belief that order is imposed by government on an unwilling populace...

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

Well, Gramsci (the only Marxist who can taken seriously) went into some detail on how populations are always involved in the decisional process - no matter how oppressive the system. That is born out by numerous case studies on the behavior of American slaves.

[Ruthless]

quasibill,
I think you gave most of my answer to Hakluyt.
I'd add, progress in society is most impeded by the old Alfonse and Gaston routine: namely, who goes first. Once we get past the politeness that government should go first, then peace in society would flow like a mighty river.

[Vincente]

Memo to Le Police:

Mon Dieu! Sorry to see you guys getting hosed for 10 straight days. That sucks. Then again, have to give Les Leaders time to ponder the meaning of life and the state of things.

I would however gently suggest a solution from having your ass handed to you every night by marauding goons who are well on their way to giving Robespierre a run for his money in the destruction department.

Right there, on your utility belt... next to the Vin Rouge canteen and the stale Baguette you use to knock the ner-do-wells upside their dome piece..

It's called a gun.

You use it. To shoot the person attempting to use their own said gun to do the same to you.

This concept has been repeated, in various forms, successfully in areas across the U.S. of A.

Regards,
Vince

[Hakluyt]

fyodor,

For some reason I am reminded of Conquest of the Planet of the Apes. That the book which spawned all the movies was written by a Frenchman is also sort of odd.

[JD]

I have to wonder, how much of the outrage over the "K?rcher" and "racaille" comments actually comes from the residents of the ghettos and how much from anti-Sarkozy* commentators? As usual, the only people with voices, with access to world media, are comfortably off and not of the group directly affected. In most ghettos around the world, if I'm not mistaken, ghetto residents are not only the perpetrators of crime, but also overwhelmingly its victims, so they are sometimes more more receptive to law-and-order comments than the limousine liberals who supposedly have their best interests at heart. OTOH, if you feel that your brothers, sisters, daughers and sons are being called "scum" or "subhuman", I can understand the anger.

* Not to be too sceptical, but there are a lot of people out there who hate Sarkozy because of his other policies, and I don't doubt that they're always looking for another reason to shoot him down. One user at my ISP seriously compared Sarkozy to Heinrich Himmler. I think it's telling that while he's called "fascist", his opponents can't actually come up with anything he's done beyond talk tough.

[Ruthless]

"What do you suggest be done about the rape gangs which prey on young women in the banlieus? Are the rape gangs also part of this "afflicted" group?"

Hakluyt,
My point is that I DON'T suggest government do anything. Whatever you want to do would be fine by me.

Government, unfortunately afflicts us all.

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

So you are in favor of the status quo?

[Larry A]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a system of order to protect the populace from criminals?

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Rhywun]

"clean" the ghettos of "scum."

Maybe he meant exactly that? I.e. blasting the surfaces of the buildings clean?

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

I guess that's what divides minarchists like myself from anarchists like yourself. The night watchman duties are always going to be needed.

[Ruthless]

Larry A,
Thanks, but don't need no steenking Constitution.

[Hakluyt]

I should probably just post the entire song here so people won't have to ask:

Every time I look down on this timeless town
whether blue or gray be her skies.
Whether loud be her cheers or soft be her tears,
more and more do I realize:

I love Paris in the springtime.
I love Paris in the fall.
I love Paris in the winter when it drizzles,
I love Paris in the summer when it sizzles.

I love Paris every moment,
every moment of the year.
I love Paris, why, oh why do I love Paris?
Because my love is near.

______________________________

I have to agree. 🙂

J'aime la Ville Lumi?re!

[quasibill]

"I guess that's what divides minarchists like myself from anarchists like yourself."

Be careful drawing too many generalizations about anarchists. I too believe in night-watchman functions. I just believe private organizations can handle them more fairly, more efficiently, and with less threat of mission creep or more accurately, power creep.

That said, the case of the rapes in the banlieus shows that the state is usually powerless to protect those who rely on it, especially when the local society doesn't respect a given natural right. And now we get the spectacle of a state trying to impose a vision of order that doesn't comport with the established order in that society. This can end one of two ways - with the state surrendering its effort, or with martial law and massive injustice to many innocents who will be collateral damage in the effort to eradicate the agitators.

That said, I still think that this whole thing is a "pile of bodies in the Superdome" kind of story. No story ever seems to put into context this rash of car burnings, as another poster has pointed out.

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

The nightwatchman term generally refers to the "nightwatchman state."

...that the state is usually powerless to protect those who rely on it...

No one was realying on the state however.

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

In other words, until the last few years, when first a book, and now a series of articles, etc. were written on the subject, the local population in the balieus policed the issue themselves. Poorly I might add - blaming the young women for being forcibly gang-raped by a half a dozen guys.

[quasibill]

"The nightwatchman term generally refers to the "nightwatchman state.""

I know. Doesn't change my point that the same functions can be, and in the past, have been, provided through non-state actors.

"No one was realying on the state however"

?

Your argument all along has been that the French police failed to enforce French law in the banlieus. And that the banlieus themselves did not enforce this one aspect (rape law) in the absence of the apparatus of the French state. So the only people who protect these women from the rape were themselves and those who cared for them. Actually, that's true even when the police are enforcing the law, but's that's another discussion.

Why did the police stop patrolling the banlieus? Was it because they didn't see the point, as the society wouldn't cooperate with them anyway? The current situation seems to reflect a bit of the wisdom of their decision.

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

And that the banlieus themselves did not enforce this one aspect (rape law) in the absence of the apparatus of the French state.

Well, that is just the most glaring of the problems in these areas.

Why did the police stop patrolling the banlieus?

Because they didn't give a shit. They re-entered the situation after many calls for them to do so by the residents of the banlieus.

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

So yes, a showdown was likely going to happen sometime or another the police started to assert their authority in these areas. In that sense, what is happening was all too predictable and perhaps necessary.

[quasibill]

"They re-entered the situation after many calls for them to do so by the residents of the banlieus."

My impression was that it was more at the behest of other parts of France, as they were embarassed/outraged over these occurrences. But even if it was at the behest of residents of the banlieus, was it all of them? Some of them? A small minority? A few vocal symbols?

"Because they didn't give a shit."

While I often hammer the police, I'm not sure that this is an accurate reflection of their flaws. Usually, they cloak themselves in self-righteousness. Even racism plays itself into a desire to punish the object, as opposed to neglect.

I can't say that you're wrong, but it doesn't fit my experience with police.

[Yuri]

So the immigrants in France don't like the way they are being treated. I have a simple advice -- go home. BTW, I am an immigrant in this country and know all about trying to strike roots in a new place .

[Isaac Bartram]

So the immigrants in France don't like the way they are being treated.

These are the children and in some cases the grandchildren of immigrants. There is no "home" to "go home" to. They are supposed to have all the rights of French citizenship. For various reasons (many of which have been discussed here or in links) they have failed to assimilate or be assimilated into the culture (something the french take very seriously).

[Hakluyt]

quasibill,

A number of local women's groups were fairly instrumental in getting the police to act.

Yes, neglect and apathy fairly well describe the attitude of the police.

Yuri,

These are second and third generation Frenchmen. If they went to the homelands of their parents or grandparents they'd find the places more alien than they find France.

[Wild Pegasus]

And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to French-speakers -- it has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless...

...a characterisation that certain members of the group seem hellbent to live up to.

- Josh

[SR]

"As I recall, ~50-60 people died in the L.A. riots."

Yes, the L.A.F.D. estimates 58 deaths for the 1992 riots and 2,283 injuries (228 critical).

I'm not sure what your point was though, since my comment about the body count in a Detroit pick-up basketball game was tongue-in-cheek.

[R C Dean]

I dunno why, but anyone who uses a phrase like "a verbally fascist insult" creates instant suspicion in me. What the hell is that supposed to mean? It made me wonder what Ireland's agenda was - it sounds soft-headed lefty to me.

Why is it that whenever we get these little stateless microcosms, these no-go zones for cops, like Nuevo Laredo and now the French banleius, they always seem to go to shit? And somehow, the deplorable social conditions that result from the absence of even a nightwatchman state are, to the anarchists among us, even more proof of the wonderfulness of anarchy?

[SR]

Thank you, benevolent Hit & Run gods, for converting my URL cite into a link!

[Jesse Walker]

I dunno, R.C. Why do you describe a Mexican city where police are ubiquitous but deeply corrupt as a "no-go zone for cops"? Or French welfare suburbs dominated by enormous public housing complexes as "the absence of even a nightwatchman state"?

Ireland is firmly leftist. He can be a pretty sharp writer, too. I think he makes a good point about the way Sarkozy's comments fanned the flames of the riots.

[joe]

Ooh! Ooh! I can answer the second one!

Because building housing towers has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of a "night watchman state."

What do I win?

[Larry Edelstein]

Can someone clarify on the significance of rape in the banlieu? Are there a lot? Recently? Always?

[Jesse Walker]

Joe: He said it wasn't "even" a nightwatchman state. Meaning, it didn't even have minimal government.

[fyodor]

I thought the original beef was that cops gratuitously harrassed the youth of these areas, resulting in the electrocution deaths of the two kids fleeing the cops? Now, that doesn't contradict the possibility that the police neglected their legitimate duties in the same areas, but I would think it would contradict the notion that they had no presence there.

[The Real Bill]

I have to agree that Sarkozy "fanned the flames," but big fucking deal!

Oh, boo hoo ... boo hoo hoo hoo ... I'm a lame-assed little boy, so when someone calls me names I burn my banlieu down. Boo hoo...

What fucking pussies. I say to hell with them. Kill them all and let Allah sort them out. (And no, I don't mean kill all of the people in the banlieus, just he violent rioters. You know, the anal-raping, disabled-women burning fuckwads.)

Jeez, as a libertarian living in SF, I've been called far, far worse.

[Rhywun]

Where are the rich, white areas of LA?

Hmmm... off the top of my head... Bel-Air. Hollywood Hills. Brentwood. Pacific Palisades. I'm sure there's others.

[Rhywun]

I think he makes a good point about the way Sarkozy's comments fanned the flames of the riots.

I'm still wondering if Sarkozy's comment was "misunderstood" to be referring to the people rather than the dilapidated buildings. I'm having a hard time believing any politician in power in modern France would say something that is otherwise so clearly offensive. 'Cos I thought Europe was all PC 'n' stuff.

[Ken Shultz]

Did the LAPD hide behind the gates of Bel Air? ...I don't remember that. I remember them being right in the thick of it, but I remember them standing by and watching looters for the first day or two.

When you think of a rich, white neighborhood, do you picture Hollywood Hills and Brentwood, or something more like Santa Clarita?

[Paul]

It's interesting that there seems to be very little use of force employed in containing (well, the feeble attempt to contain) the riots.

The French government was waiting for their surrender to be finalized before they realized that this was no invasion, it was a riot being perpetrated by their own people. Almost a week was lost, just trying to figure out who they were going to surrender to.

HAA! I kill me. Here come the responses. But it was worth it.

[Ron Hardin]

``And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless...''

English is much better for insults. Alas they hardly teach them any longer in school. Fortunately it's automated

$ insult 20
You ill-proportioned glass of pestilential anole foam
You heartrending drinking horn of malignant honker rags
You base e?tui of unsalutary aardvark sweepings
You beastly pocketbook of hydropic snow goose jakes
You grinding eggcup of ulcerated spring frog ejection
You hateful cone of hypertensive American quarter horse disgorgement
You unhandsome game bag of scrofulous partridge diaphoresis
You irritating kit bag of soiled sea cow expectoration
You graceless cream pitcher of ulcerous giant ground sloth ejectamenta
You worrisome sauce boat of malarial bluebill piss
You dislikable drum of tabid Croton bug dingleberry
You rotten crock of innutritious Rocky Mountain goat squirt
You comfortless magazine of unhygenic stickleback urine
You obnoxious tankard of plagued speckled trout purulence
You fetid firkin of scabietic tragopan ptyalism
You vexing splint basket of loose-moraled wren-tit vomition
You tormenting broiler of consumptive jay scoria
You bleak jeroboam of insalubrious beaded lizard fart
You disfigured stomach of rickety bobwhite smut
You ill-favored cuspidor of poisoned Duroc night soil

In fact, a unix archive of the C program is at http://rhhardin.home.mindspring.com/insult.txt

[Hakluyt]

fyodor,

Until the past few years the police didn't police in any significant way the banlieus (note that the term in French simply means "suburb" - but it has come to mean the ethnic slums that tend to surround the major cities - also note that the banlieus tend to be made up of two areas: the newer, government constructed block buildings and the older parts of town, with the former being the ethnic slums).

SR,

I was just making a factual statement and that is all.

Jesse Walker,

Or French welfare suburbs dominated by enormous public housing complexes as "the absence of even a nightwatchman state"?

Its a rather odd combination of the government both neglecting and supporting the same area depending on the type of "service" involved.

[ANM]

Dang, I thought those Algerians would abandon the violence they practiced at home and take to wine tasting with their French compatriots. I got it, we gotta assimilate them! C'mon, they're only lashing out because they haven't assimilated. All that violent history will dissolve into love of cheese, champaign, and ze French. I mean, if I thought otherwise, I'd have to repudiate my dogma of open borders, and I sure wouldn't want to do that. Narrowly missed that one.

I'm an orthodox Jew. I know plenty of Jews radically different from mainstream American culture. Same for the Amish. And yet they aren't burning cars on the street and tormenting old women. The whole assimilation argument is flat out bullshit, an excuse. Why should any country take the risk of increased violence, in its hopes to "assimilate" their new immigrants? There are plenty of both fine and rotten immigrants. Clearly, there are costs incurred in not selecting (or at least trying to) the better among them. One need not "assimilate" to be beneficial to society. Besides, exactly how do you plan to assimilate them in a minimal state? Any attempt at doing so, like the forced adoption of certain cultural mores, violates principles of libertarianism (I'm libertarian, but I think there should be open immigration for the highly skilled, and restricted or closed for the unskilled). I don't blame Islam. For all I know, Islam (or their conception of it) is just a reflection, a product, of their violent manner. Nature or nurture, I don't know (you could try to elicit the answer from adoption studies).

Locke and Hobbes were both right. Without government, some societies descend into a Hobbesian state, while others ascend into Locke's. I thank God that I live in America, a largely Lockean state, save for those occasional riots. (I live in one of the "rich white" parts of L.A., westwood.)

[joshua corning]

well someone has to say it (true or not). Even if it is just for spite.

I am sure glad the US, unlike France, choose to fight terrorists in Iraq rather then here at home. 🙂

[Jesse Walker]

I didn't realize it was un-libertarian to think racism and poverty had an effect on people. Especially when the most relevant racists work for the government's police force, and when the poverty is exacerbated by labor laws and tied up with an extensive welfare state.

Obviously it isn't "all" about racism and poverty. But who said it was?

[crimethink]

Well at least he didn't say that their mothers were hamsters and their fathers smelt of elderberries...

[quasibill]

"And somehow, the deplorable social conditions that result from the absence of even a nightwatchman state are, to the anarchists among us, even more proof of the wonderfulness of anarchy?"

No, the deplorable violence and riots that occur when a state tries to assert its form of order over a naturally established or traditional order is an example of why states are the cause of most problems, not the answer.

As Hak has noted, the French state was pretty much not present in the banlieus for years. And you didn't see mass riots, or raging gun battles, etc. Yes, the rights of women weren't respected, and that was awful - but guess what? That's a reflection of their current culture. Not too long ago - the 1960s, at least - American culture wasn't too different. Heck, even now, someone who gets convicted of dealing crack gets a longer prison sentence than most rapists.

So what does the Paris "riot" show us? First, that you can't count on the state to protect you - unless you're arguing that somehow the police did protect those rape victims. Note that this is true even outside "police no-go zones." Second, that imposing "order" through the state that is in conflict with an established or traditional order will always result in social unrest and will require draconian responses that will violate the rights of innocents as much, if not more than, the problem that was intended to be solved. Finally, the Hobbesian myth that in the absence of government, man turns into animals and randomly kills, rapes, and robs his neighbor is false - the French state wasn't involved for years, and the worst that happened was that they let some boys get away with gang rape (not to downplay how awful that is, but we're talking large picture here - One could point to the OJ and MJ trials and make certain comparisons, in that regard.) A natural order evolved, with self-enforcing social norms. No state was necessary to enforce "order."

[Smart Torontonian]

How about why libertarians are all going on about how this riot is due to French racism and neoliberalism?

[Isaac Bartram]

'Cos I thought Europe was all PC 'n' stuff.

That seems to be a popular myth here in the USA. However it lacks any factual basis.

[Isaac Bartram]

A number of myths have been blown here. But chief is the myth of French racial tolerance.

Since at least WWI France has had a reputation as a haven for American blacks. From musicians like Sidney Bechet and Louis Armstrong who appreciated the reception they got to "refugees" like writer James Baldwin and singer Nina Simone who moved there to "escape" American racism people have gotten the impression that France is a paradise of racial harmony.

It is one thing to welcome and be intrigued and entertained by performers and intellectuals (the myth of the noble savage originated in France too) but now these regular folks, these factory workers and domestics from Africa showed up and had none of the mystique or polish of American jazz musicians or the dash of the WWI soldiers with whom the French were so taken in 1917-8. And they were here permanently, they weren't visitors, they weren't "going home".

None of this is intended to excuse the rioters, it is merely to observe that the curtain has been drawn back and that an exceedingly ugly side of French life has been exposed.

Everyone recognizes that reforms are called for. The most obvious, to us any way, is the need to liberalize labor laws to enable these youths to enter the labor force. Listening to the politicians I get the impression that that won't happen.

More likely there will be more spending programs and some phony "multi-culturalism" and affirmative action programs.

[Jesse Walker]

I don't think that Le Scum's comment was about racism and poverty having no effect on people. I think his (her?) point was that these things are no excuse for the behavior of the rioters.

But who's making excuses? There's a lot of comments here, and maybe I missed one, but I don't think anyone has declared that racism, poverty, or anything else justifies arson or assault. I've seem commenters express sympathy for people trapped in a bad situation, but not for this violent response to it.

[gaius marius]

But we certainly have a pivot point here, one where the ruling elite's inefficacy and ineptness is being laid crudely bare for all the world to see.

utterly. this is merely a symptom of a much larger degeneration among western civilization -- the riots in france could and in fact have happened in every western nation. bankrupt elites ensconsed in bunkers clinging to power where their actions merit no moral alleigance; fractured suspicious masses consisting of a multiculti patchwork of aggrieved proletariats.

the responses out of de villepin and sarkozy have both exposed the willingness of the management class to amorally disembowel entire classes of their citizenry to hold onto a control the merit of which they abdicate by their very words. and the things they're saying are the same words i'd expect out of any american or british management figure just the same.

Everyone recognizes that reforms are called for. The most obvious, to us any way, is the need to liberalize labor laws to enable these youths to enter the labor force. Listening to the politicians I get the impression that that won't happen.

having diagnosed the problem as one of an inability of the west to any longer culturally assimilate immigrants -- even after two frecnh-born generations -- thanks to advancing cultural bankruptcy, i posit that this has almost no chance of mitigating the problem. better economic management might assuage a symptom -- but that's all it does.

in the end, even if successful on some level, these jobless immigrants would be only employed immigrants -- still segregated from a french social polity that views them as unfrench, still separatist in fear of becoming like the decadent westerners.

did the civil rights movement assimilate african-americans into the western mainstream? obviously not -- african-american culture is more defiant and distinctive by its differences than ever. this is because the granting of civil rights is only management of the symptoms of a core problem that runs much deeper.

[joe]

"bankrupt elites ensconsed in bunkers clinging to power where their actions merit no moral alleigance; fractured suspicious masses consisting of a multiculti patchwork of aggrieved proletariats."

Bravo! What ever happened to "consent of the governed?"

The government has an affirmative duty to go out and seek that consent, day in and day out. They haven't been doing that in France (and in a lot of other places). They've been behaving as if the have a divine right to rule these people, and expecting them to accept their rightful place within the divinely-ordered system, and this is what happens.

[gaius marius]

if these folks have been left to their own devices and this is the result, oh yeah, anarchism is EXACTLY the mess of human stupidity I would expect it to be

anarchism, in the end, is only the utopian impulse to total emancipation from any cultural responsibility. the de facto independence of these ghettos has encouraged their sense of cultural independence in a nation where a vision of french cultural distinctiveness, value and uniformity is a high priority. this was bound to be the root of oppression and violence, and so it is. the same could be said of any ghetto.

as such, i agree that anarchism -- the dissolution of civilization -- while perhaps inevitable in time, is not a goal to be worked toward. however, neither is draconian management by a discredited elite clinging to power by any means necessary.

france is, like all western nations now, in dire danger of a devolution into outright tyranny as the management takes any and all steps to retain power. but what one must work for is a moral solution for these aggrieved people -- a way to make them feel at home in france, to make them feel french, not as muslims proletarians who happen to be in but not of france -- reconciling their goals with those of western elites and bourgeiosie in a new social compact under law.

such a solution would have to entail changes which may not be possible in our ossified society, but are necessary nonetheless to avoid a regrettable future.

[joe]

Though I disagree with your depiction of de Vellepin and Sarkozy as belonging to "the management class." They belong to the political class, which is something else entirely.

I also disagree with your assertion that better economic integration wouldn't overcome cultural segregation. It has always overcome cultural antipathy. People don't come together by having touchy feely conversations about the need to come together; they come together by standing shoulder to shoulder as they work together.

[gaius marius]

The government has an affirmative duty to go out and seek that consent, day in and day out.

this, however, mr joe, is not enough. the proletariats have to grant it. and what chance is there of that under the current compact? these peoples within the people *fear* becoming westernized -- they work actively against it.

i have, for example, a large number of indian friends who, though they work technological jobs here in chicago, seek arranged marriages in india, frequently traveling back and forth to maintain a cultural home there while living here. many of them resent as many or more aspects of the westernization of their lives here and of india as they like. what new compact would absolve them of this fear and loathing of the west and being western?

the response to this immisicible oil-and-water society is usually the final abdication of any culture at all -- as the romans did in advancing hellenic dessication, simply allowing anyone to be anything they were with little or no assimilation within a morally and culturally vacuous economic and political construct. this is a step beyond france that has been taken in the united states most noticably.

the response isn't a solution, of course, so much as a deferral of dissolution punctuated by ever more common periods of civil strife. so we need to find a different way if our civilization is to avoid the fate of rome.

[gaius marius]

They belong to the political class, which is something else entirely.

servants of the management class, in the end, which in the west is now no longer noble but bourgeois. their words represent the reaction of a fearful commerical class.

It has always overcome cultural antipathy.

"always" is a really inclusive word, mr joe. 🙂 i'd point out the example of my indian and east asian friends here who are as economically priviledged as we are, and yet many of whom feel little or no cultural affinity for the west -- in some cases, active antipathy.

[gaius marius]

one might also point out the rather more touchy case of an osama bin laden -- a child of western priviledge if ever there was one. it isn't as mystifying as it might seem that so many of the 9/11 hijackers were educated in western universities and decided to forego lives of economic access in the west to act on their hatred of postmodern western culture. terry mcdermott's research paints a rather detailed picture of middleclassmen harboring a deep spiritual conflict regarding their potential position as members of a westernized intelligensia adhering to what they ultimately saw as a cultural betrayal.

[dhex]

put into those terms, this is indeed an intractable problem.

however...i cannot help but think of the fate of the irish catholic populations of the united states, pre and post civil war. perhaps what new immigrants need is another group to look down upon?

[gaius marius]

the fate of the irish catholic populations of the united states, pre and post civil war

i agree, mr dhex -- proletarians *can* be assimilated under the proper conditions. but with respect to the american irish: how assimilated are they? it varies by person of course, but here in chicago there is a very strong irish nationalist sentiment that has never disappeared. some neighborhoods are still defiantly irish villages in an american landscape. politicians can't really be elected there without being irish.

and i'd argue, like you, that they are a relative success story. later immigrants show far fewer signs of assimilation.

and i would further argue that the penalties of a refusal to assimilate have gone by the boards, removing a lot of pressure from the management class simply because the management class came to the conclusion in the 19th c that the application of pressure in favor of an american identity was a recipe for disaster. this is where america parted company from france.

this was easier to give up in english america because the sense of a longstanding cultural identity was not a prominent feature of our society -- a fact that makes america, like germany or italy, more susceptible to excessive identity crises invented from insecurity in the form of virulent nationalism.

[Hakluyt]

gaius marius,

Anyone pontificating on French politicians should get a good idea about how they are trained, especially those in the top echelons of French society. Nearly all of them go to the same "Grand Ecole."

joe,

You wouldn't know what France's political class looked like if it were presented to you on a platter.

[dhex]

gaius:

"but with respect to the american irish: how assimilated are they?"

deeply. hell, they let their daughters marry prods (or worse, me!) and everything.

more importantly, outside of one or two enclaves, it is essentially an non-issue outside of how much one drinks on st. patrick's day (or, 15 years ago, how much one would drop when the hat was passed). that's a huge change from 150 years ago, or even just 100 years ago, having heard the stories from my family, most of whom were both as american-irish and proletarian as one can get (i'm the first college educated male in my entire family's history, etc)

[gaius marius]

Nearly all of them go to the same "Grand Ecole."

that's exactly as i understand it, gg -- the french equivalent of ivy league skull & bones. 🙂

[Murphy]

French reaction to invasion or riots:

Level 1: Run
Level 2: Hide
Level 3: Surrender

This has been consistent over the past 100 years.

[Hakluyt]

Murphy,

Yes, that explains WWI; not. This year is 2005. One hundred years ago was 1905. WWI was between 1914-1918. Honestly, the fact that people have the notion that WWII is the length and breadth of French martial history just astounds me.

[Hakluyt]

gaius marius,

A common insult for a graduate of the most exclusive "Grand Ecoles" is to call them "Bonapartes" or "Emporers." 🙂

[Isaac Bartram]

Hakluyt at November 8, 2005 05:39 PM

There are so many things to legitimately criticize about the French. Perhaps, like me, you find it a shame that people persist with these silly myths?

[Hakluyt]

Isaac Bertram,

The sort of hyperbole Murphy engages in distracts from a legitimate discussion of the topic.

Yes, even an individual like me, whose blood practically runs with the waters of the Seine, sees lots to criticize about France.

[joe]

gaius,

1) If the existing compact isn't sufficient to gain their consent, the compact needs to be changed. That's part of going out and seeking their consent.

2)Your Indian friends may well live and think as you describe. Do you really think their American-born children will?

3)You would do well to distinguish between structural assimilation and cultural assimilation. In a multicultural community like the US, it is possible to have the former without the latter - like your Chicago Irish example. I'll point out that they aren't rioting as the North African yoots in France, so what's the problem?

[philippe]

Donug Ireland's take on 'racaille' is actualy unadequate. Racaille is an old french word, meaning scums indeed, revived for a few years in the 'banlieux' by the young themselves, sometimes as a badge of honor, sometimes also in a slang 'verlan' version 'caillera'. So, it's indeed,a heavily charged word, but in a different way. When Sarkozy used it, it echoes to a lot of people in those 'banlieux'.
What's also lacking is the context. Sarkozy was visiting Argenteuil, a suburb of Paris, and stones and others objects were thrown at him. A woman, from a first floor flat shouted at him ;' when will you get rid of this 'racaile'. And he respond 'you want to get rid of the racaille ? We'll get you rid of it'. He was actualy answering, on the pot, with the own words of the woman. Not that such an expression is a surprise in his mouth...

[gaius marius]

Do you really think their American-born children will?

they ARE the american-born children, mr joe.

structural assimilation and cultural assimilation

yields a

multicultural community

which is in fact not truly a community at all, but a patchwork quilt of communities that live in a mutual suspicion, latent though it may be, which fractures easily under stress.

I'll point out that they aren't rioting as the North African yoots in France, so what's the problem?

we assume the best case will always exist because that is what we've had for the last 30 years -- but it won't always be so. what's going on in france should be a reminder to all western nations that we are barely held together, multiculturally speaking, and can come to violence under the slightest pretext. and in that event, the divisions that we've downplayed for decades will manifest themselves with a vengeance. that's a lesson of history, imo.

[Daleth Carey Hall]

People are blowing this way out of proportion--I mean, these "riots" so far have killed one (1) person and destroyed about 7000 cars; compare that to the LA riots in 1992, which, in the space of three days, killed 55 people and caused $1 billion in property damage. I can't help but think a lot of the urge to blow it out of proportion comes from (1) the wacked-out anti-French sentiment of the last few years (i.e., nutjob conservatives hating France because they refused to invade Iraq); (2) complete ignorance about France; and (3) the desire to avoid thinking about our own problems here in the US--any opportunity to focus on someone else's problems is welcome.

[Daleth Carey Hall]

PS, for a different perspective on the French riots, click on my name to visit the part of my blog that's dedicated to the riots...