Naval Anti-Defamation League

In that innocent era, the early '90s, how we laughed at those P.C. ninnies who argued that phrases like "dutch treat" were offensive. Well, look who's playing the aggrieved-minority card now.

Comments

[Jeff P.]

From now on I will swap the phrase "drunken sailor" with "sitting US President."

[tarran]

I am an ex U.S. Navy lieutenant, and I can assure you that the archetypal drunken sailor still exists, and is in fact quite common.

Take a bunch of young men, raised to see alcohol as a forbidden fruit, put them on a ship where it is denied to them for weeks at a time, then cut them loose in a port where the locals are quite happy to sell to them, and nature takes its course.

The guys who are protesting are possibly the sort who hardly ever go to sea (and hardly ever swear the big, big, D too I'll warrant), delusional, or not sailors.

[Dynamist]

Maybe the sailors are just jerking your chain.

[stereo typist]

These guys ought to be happy that's ALL the stereotype they have. Here's some more:

Bounces checks like a sailor.

Bangs Mexican hookers like a sailor.

Drives drunk and kills somebody like a sailor.

Shows up at parties he wasn't invited to and starts fights like a sailor.

Can't read or do math like a sailor.

Washes airplanes for 16 grand a year like a sailor.

[David]

Your callous show of contempt for the U.S Navy and the fine blue jackets that have fought and died to defend you sickens me.

Isn't it kind of a stretch to call a title that had the word "drunken sailors" a show of comtempt for the U.S. Navy? Is it just me or do people really go out of their way to get offended these days?

[Don]

Rum, sodomy & the lash.

[madpad]

David,

It's not just you.

As I live in a Navy town (and used to be a bartender) I can tell you from experience these twits are living in a dreamworld. I'd add to that but stereo typist summed it up better than I ever could.

P.C....it's not just for liberals anymore.

Of course it won't really get interesting until someone files a class action suit.

[Herman]

I can't read Balko's site from my office, but maybe he was sticking it to drunken yachtsmen and not U.S. naval personnel?

[Tim Cavanaugh]

How about an Air Force anti-defamation league, seeing as how more than 90 percent of all ordnance dropped on Iraq in both Gulf Wars (IIRC: It's in that neighborhood anyway) was dropped by the United States Air Force, and the remainder was dropped by the U.S. Navy and all other allied forces-yet you'd never know that from any movie, video game, or TV show, all of which depict Navy aviators as the only air defense (or offense) this country has (probably because the Navy spends orders of magnitude more on Hollywood outreach than any other service branch).

You want a group of people who are actually defending this country and not getting an ounce of credit, look no further than the United States Air Force.

[madpad]

As I say, I don't write the headlines. But I do think it's funny that most of the email I'm getting is about drunken sailors, not arrogant Republicans.

Boy...now THAT one needs a little explanation 'cause unless he's got some hard facts to back that one up, I don't see how he could make that conclusion. I seriously doubt the indignant ones are putting their political affiliation in their e-mails.

From my experience, Republicans are every bit as likely to get twitchy over stupid, inconsequential bullshit as anyone else.

Radley...if you're listening in...how 'bout some data on that one.

[linguist]

Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only definition I know is as in, "going dutch" on a date. Is that offensive to the dutch?

[matthew hogan]

The letters kind of remind one of the old Monty Python episode on cannibalism in the Royal Navy:

"I abhor the implication that the Royal Navy is a haven for cannibalism. It is well known that we now have the problem relatively under control, and that it is the RAF who now suffer the most casualties in this area."
- Letter from Capt. B.J. Smethicke in a white wine sauce, with shallots, mushrooms, and garlic

http://www.astro.uu.se/~hoefner/quotes/q_monty.html

[Slanderous Old Salt]

What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
Earl-aye in the morning?

Way hay and up she rises
Patent blocks o' diff'rent sizes,
Way hay and up she rises
Earl-aye in the morning

[ChicagoTom]

What are the odds that these same sailor boys get all pissy when asked not to use terms like "fag" or "punjab" or "Hijee"

[tarran]

madpad,

He wrote an article attacking the Republicans (savaging them, actually), adn fox news put a reference to Drunken Sailors in the title.

He is sommenting that most of the protests he has received are about the headline rather than the content. Since it is his inbox, I don't think he needs a source to back it up: he is the source.

[thoreau]

From now on I will swap the phrase "drunken sailor" with "sitting US President."

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R C Dean]

Rum, sodomy & the lash.

Stop it, Don. I'm getting all . . . tingly.

[Evan Williams]

What's amusing is that the headline referred to "sailors". Not US Navy sailors. Not military sailors. Just...sailors. Like, as in, someone who travels in a boat. Yet, the Navy guys took it upon themselves to presume that it was a jab at Navy sailors...

[Stevo Darkly]

Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only definition I know is as in, "going dutch" on a date. Is that offensive to the dutch?

"Dutch treat" means the same as "going dutch" on a date. In other words, you get invited, but have to pay your own way. I guess it implies the Dutch are cheap. If anybody still mentally linked the old term to the actual Dutch, that is.

You know what term I find offensive? "Indian giver."

No, I take that back ...

(Credit: Emo Phillips.)

[K. Toishi]

Anyone notice that the Fox changed the title.
Conservatives giving into-PC, I love it.
Interesting coincedence since I was just reading Jonah Goldberg at NRO reaming a local radio station for firing a commentator who made anti-Islamic comments.

[The Mad Scientist]

Speaking as someone who lives on sailboat, I am offended that our naval servicepersons consider themselves to be sailors at all. Everyone knows Navy ships have no sails.

[Britton]

I've been a sailor since 88, and I can attest that young squids in a new port have a tendency to get drunk and spend a lot of that cash they've been saving up underway.

Beer and whores don't grow on trees, you know.

[Shawn Smith]

The Mad Scientist,

Has the Navy actually decommissioned the U.S.S. Constitution?

[Seamus]

Matthew Hogan:

That Monty Python line was the first thing that occured to me when I read: "I think you could have used another analogy other than 'Drunken Sailors'. I spent almost 23 years in the Navy and I can honestly say that the U.S. Navy has taken great strides in changing that perspective."

[The Mad Scientist]

Shawn, I think the Constitution is still a bona-fide U.S. Navy ship. At the least, the Navy is the body conducting the public tours of the ship. Ah ha! The Navy has a whole website just for the Constitution. However, since they almost never actually SAIL her...

[Captain Awesome]

100% off topic but has anybody heard about these idiots?

[joe]

I agree that the term "spending like a drunken sailor" is offensive and inappropriate, and I'm glad that these proud, patriotic naval personnel took the time out from fucking each other in the ass to express themselves.

[joe]

madpad, I think you misunderstood Balko's comment.

He's noting that, while he hasn't received any messages from Republicans who object to being compared to sailors, he's received a ton of mail from sailors who object to being compared to Republicans.

;-P Thhhppppttttt!

[David]

I agree that the term "spending like a drunken sailor" is offensive and inappropriate, and I'm glad that these proud, patriotic naval personnel took the time out from fucking each other in the ass to express themselves.

Joe,

Outstanding!

[Happy Jack]

Never had a Dutch treat, but my brothers did give me Dutch rubs.

Tim, the reason the Air Force gets no love is, any real soldier knows they're nothing but "flyboys."

[dead_elvis]

Heck, the British Royal Navy was drunk every day for more than 300 years. All around the world seaports have reputations for rough and tumble drinking. Sorry to the U.S. Navy for not getting the drunken sailor image out of our heads OVERNIGHT.

[Hakluyt]

Happy Jack,

"Fleet does the flying and MI does the dying."

[Anon]

Tim,

The Navy led with _Top Gun_ and the Air Force responded with _Iron Eagle_. A bad beat. But reallym when the Air Force can't even muster a competitor to _Pensacola: Wings of Gold_, things are in a dire shape...

Anon

[complexisomorphism]

Joe:

I needed a good laugh, whew.

Captain Awesome: Can I make a political pro-capitalist statement by shooting one of those 'protestors' in the head? Since, while protesting, it doesn't seem to matter if you violate the rights of others.

[jw]

I don't get bent out of shape by the term "drunken sailor"; most stereotypes have a grain of truth as their basis. But I spent several years in the Navy way back before most of you little snots were even a gleam in some sailor's eye and I will tell you the same thing that I told the editor, back then, of Sol III ( an early REASON competitor): Attitudes toward military people(read enlisted men) such as yours are one of the prime reasons why a military draft has usually been necessary in this country. Do you really expect men to volunteer for an organization in which they are referred to as GIs (Government Issue = government property), where they have less legal status than a Negro had in Mississippi? Where they will be paid only a little more than what they could make at a fastfood joint! Where they won't have the same rights as any other government employee because...by god! it's their "DUTY" to serve their country!?? Do you expect that they will volunteer to be looked down on by their fellow countrymen or to be relegated to the company of prostitutes ( "decent" people discourage their "nice" daughters from associating with those nasty ol' sailors.)
But come to think of it, I guess a bunch of them would volunteer for the military if, thanks to our lovely government and our crooked, monetary-inflating financial institutions,...if thanks to them there aren't any decent-paying jobs left in the country( except as some tax sucking, beaurocrat, like maybe a city planner.)

[dagny]

I gotta say, "dutch treat" is pretty accurate, too. Dutch people are cheap. Maybe not actual living-in-the-Netherlands-Dutch, but the Dutch in West Michigan certainly are.

I can say that, my grandma's from Allendale 🙂 (1/4 Dutch). The one the "multicultural assistants" at my university were big on is you can't say you were gypped, because that's offensive to gypsies.

[Captain Awesome (A)]

complexisomorphism, holy crap that is an awesome answer!
And, reputations suck when you get stuck with someone elses. To, further the cross-reputationalizing, my experience with enlisted men was from college in San Diego, Marines and Navy men like to show up at your party and make women uncomfortable enough to leave, then invite over all of their friends. But (actually non-sarcastically) I do have love for our personal in-house mercenaries. And when they die for some stupid reason, all I can say is, "it's a crying shame part of their contract is to do whatever some wacko we elected tells them to."

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sailors have come a long way since the post WWI days when there were signs warning that Sailors and Dogs, Keep Off the Grass so stop bitching.

Besides, I know exactly how drunk sailors spend, I've hung with many of them. And if you really want a treat go for a drive with a drunk sailor. VBG

Come on Joe, now your sound like a Marine....talking about fag sailors and such.

Stevo, LOL, but I thought that was a Stephen Wright gag.

BTW, drunk Marines aren't any more frugal.

[Jim Walsh]

I'm convinced that there are people out there who just can't get through the day without being deeply offended by something...

[David T]

Linguist: "Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only definition I know is as in, 'going dutch' on a date. Is that offensive to the dutch?"

Mynheer Linguist, myabe you should take a good look at
http://www.nationallampoon.com/dutch/dindex.html and especiailly at the cartoon at
http://www.nationallampoon.com/dutch/dutch2.html

[Douglas Fletcher]

Speaking as a former frequently drunken sailor:

1. joe's joke was cute, but mainly I see it as a good argument to bring back the draft, if only to get rid of the current widespread ignorance that currently exists about the military. Truth be told, the Navy has for quite some time had a place for gays in it's ranks, and any sailor could tell you they're called Medical Corpsman. From my experience the gays in the Navy only ran into trouble when they tried to be something else, say, something manly like bosuns or gunnery mates. Caveat, I've been out for 25+ years now.

2. Tim speaks of the Air Force's bombing predominance, I will assume he has his facts right. What the Navy had through the Cold War which probably did as much to keep the peace as anything was the intercontinental missiles aboard nuclear submarines. Although the Navy hasn't seen a lot of action really since WWII, I think it is rightly respected (feared?) throughout the world. At this point the Navy is mainly used as a strategic projection of national power, as the naval historian George Thayer Mahan advocated, but the devastation that an carrier group can wreak upon an enemy, especially coastal cities, is something I wouldn't want to be anywhere near when it happened.

3. When I was in there was a whole effort going on by Naval PR to change the image of sailors as sloppy, drunken clowns to that of proud professionals serving their nation. Well, to quote the Byrds song, to every thing there is a season. When you've been proudly serving your nation out at sea for two or three weeks in severe weather and you can hardly remember when you had a good night's sleep, when you get into port you need a drink, and 12 or 13 will be better than 2 or 3, thank you. At least that's how it was for me & the other drunks dragging ourselves back to the ship at 4 am.

Also, at least if you're single, you usually have about a month's pay burning a hole in your pocket. "Spending money like a drunken sailor" is one of those great commonplace truths that are right on the nose, much as some people might not want to admit it.

[Jeff P.]

Dutch Oven. Snicker.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I for one am grossly offended by these stereotypes. Mariners throughout history were stalwarts of sobriety, discipline, and good manners. Think of pirates and privateers.

[Jeff P.]

But what about Sub-Mariners? Pointy-eared, wing-footed bastards! Always attacking us surface-dwellers. They hate us for our free oxygen!

[ChrisO]

There are only two things I hate: those who are intolerant of other people's cultures. And the Dutch.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Jeff P:

Imperius Rex!

[Crushinator]

"Spending money like a drunken sailor" is too good of a simile to disappear from common usage. So the sailor boys need to stop being so sensitive (a sensitive sailor for Christ's sake!) or they need to come up with a more attractive simile to replace it. How about "Spending money like a rapacious golddigger"?

[jc]

Caveat, I've been out for 25+ years now.

Out of the navy, or out of the closet?

[downstater]

You want a group of people who are actually defending this country and not getting an ounce of credit, look no further than the United States Air Force.

Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool anything. I remember a tonight show episode that had a bunch of service members in the audience from all the branches, and everyone from the other branches booed the coast guardsmen. there were only, like, 8 of them in the crowd. I guess the rest of them were out actually defending things like ports & harbors and doing SAR and useless non-Top Gun stuff like that.

I'm not in the CG or any other branch of the military, but i'd really like to hear why the CG gets so little respect for their role in national defense compared to the other branches.

I've heard that the CG lost more members in WWII than any other service branch as a percentage of total members.

[madpad]

Since it is his inbox, I don't think he needs a source to back it up: he is the source.

tarran,

I think you're a little off base. I completely understand that Balko's article savages Republicans (and rightly so, IMHO).

Yet he goes on to state that the people responding to said article who are indignant by the comparison are NOT Republicans.

My point is that I don't see how he could possibly have the information to make that statement with anything approaching authority.

It would require that EVERY (or at least most) of the posts by indignant persons include their political affiliation, which I think is extremely unlikely - though not impossible.

Indeed he is the source, as you accurately point out. But that source is based on his interperetation of what he's seeing in his inbox. I merely asked from some clarification as to how he arrived at that conclusion.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

What a mess....

Mr. Cavanaugh gives us the brilliant insight of "ordnance dropped = importance." This thread is way too short to explain 21st century combined arms theory to a pop culture critic. Personally, I think his expertise is better applied to commentary on the Navy and Marine Corps band.

Joe gives us his riff on "the Aristocrats" which is apparently now "the Sailors."

The most salient comments here are from the shellbacks (you know who you are). Spend a few months at sea. Work long hours under lousy conditions and then dock in the libertarian paradise of Olongapo City where (if memory serves) San Miguel beer cost 25 cents a bottle and every bar was full of hookers.

I expect those most offended by the phrase "drunken sailors" are those base-bound starched-shirt prudes who never crossed the Po to sample the subtle charms of mojo. They thought "Long Time" was a song by Boston and never entered the secret fraternity of those who played "Smiles."

They missed quite a party....

[Jesse Walker]

Madpad: He wrote that the mail is "about drunken sailors, not arrogant Republicans."

"About" does not mean "from."

[drf]

dutch oven.

cleveland steamer...

*giggle*

(Linguist: as far as i've understood it, "going dutch" is pretty much = "dutch treat", unless there's something else out there. I thought "hot Karl" was how the girls dug a buggy of mine.)

GOOSE ISLAND!!!!! 8/27, tomorrow at 7:30!!!!!

[drf]

dammit! make that "buddy".

need....more...coffee..... must... get... visions... of.... titlated... RC.... out... of .... brain....... 🙂

[Steven Crane]

From my experience the gays in the Navy only ran into trouble when they tried to be something else, say, something manly like bosuns or gunnery mates.

thoreau, you're the physicist.... why don't you write a monograph on the decay of gay bosons?

*ducks soon-to-be oncoming tomatoes*

[madpad]

Jesse,

Thanks for the heads up...although now I feel like a dumbass. Should have read closer (or rather more closely)

[Herman]

Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool anything.
What about Here Comes the Coast Guard with actor Troy McClure?

It would require that EVERY (or at least most) of the posts by indignant persons include their political affiliation, which I think is extremely unlikely - though not impossible.
I made this as a snarky suggestion on the GOP pork thread from yesterday. Would we require this of sock puppets?

[cgee]

Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool anything.

While the movie based on Peter Benchley's "The Island" is pretty craptacular (1980 starring Michael Caine, not 2005 starring Obiwan Kenobi...err, Ewan McGregor), the USCG did cruise to the rescue. I think they got their butts kicked, though.

[madpad]

cgee,

The fair Coast Guard boys do indeed get their butt's all but sliced off.

However, I think they redeem themselves at the end of "Captain Ron" by rescuing Martin Short's family along with Kurt Russell's title character.

IMHO, BTW, a much better film than "The Island".

[keith]

Would reasonoids really champion a pop-culture burst of excitement for the USCG given their WoD water-carrier role?

And in the interest of equal time, what about the other two uniformed services: the Public Health Service (beyond http://www.drkoop.com) and the NOAA Corps (though, did I read a story in Analog about NOAA Corps hurricane research pilots 10 years ago)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services

Of course, the Air Force had plenty of screen fun in Dr Strangelove.

[jw]

"a good argument to bring back the draft"

What a sorry excuse for a libertarian website this is getting to be! Military conscription is nothing but a polite (and dishonest) phrase for outright slavery. Always was. Always will be. I hope to Hell this country never has a draft again!
"Shellbacks" Now there's a term I haven't heard in a goodly number of years...that and the word "Pollywog". Yes, we Shellbacks know who we are. I just wonder if Bush's prick of an ol'man ever became one? or John Kerry, the Viet Nam video star? I never cared for Jimmy Carter's politics, but I'd bet he went through the ceremony, if he got the chance.
When I was in the Navy, medical corpsmen were called Hospital Corpsman, (twenty years before, they had been known as Pharmacist Mates.) Don't know if any were homosexuals, but I know that most of them were pretty brave dudes. You see, the Marines had no medics, so they were always assigned a Navy Corpsman. There's more than one jarhead around today that can thank a Hospital Corpsman for saving his ass. During Nam they used to pull two guys out of every Navy basic training company to go play Marine with a nice red cross target on their backs.

[jw]

Or maybe the red cross was on their helmets. I disremember.

[Douglas Fletcher]

What a sorry excuse for a libertarian website this is getting to be! Military conscription is nothing but a polite (and dishonest) phrase for outright slavery. Always was. Always will be. I hope to Hell this country never has a draft again!

Just having a bit of fun, ya silly bitch. I do find there is a lot of ignorance about how things actually work in the military, though.

Out of the navy, or out of the closet?

Sorry jc just out of the Navy.

[jw]

"Just having a bit of fun,ya silly bitch!"

I'm not silly. And I'm not a bitch. Nor am I or was I, one of those "medical corpsmen" you spoke of. I guess you'll just have to look elsewhere for your "fun", Lecher...Fletcher,...whatever your name is. Just keep on truckin'...

[Russell]

Avast! Reason-- back up a few items to
Friday Fun Link: Masonic Surrealism

In which the 1930 DeMoulin Bros. & Co. catalog of "Burlesque and Side Degree Specialties... " links innocent readers to a milestone in the epic history of Naval Defamation :
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/demoulin/jewish_and_swiss_naval_battle.html