Supreme Court Mulligans

The Institute for Justice is asking for another bite at the Kelo apple.

Comments

[MP]

I'm curious if anything like this has ever been tried before.

[joe]

"The Court announced new standards in the use of eminent domain for economic development in Kelo and four years have passed since the trial in the case. Petitioners ask the Supreme Court to allow for reexamination of facts in the trial court in light of the new standards it announced."

Hello, what's this now?

[joe]

Grrr...why don't the IJ include links to their filings?

[Hakluyt]

MP,

Yes, I believe so. I can't recall the specific cases though.

[Warren]

Yeah, this is what lawyers do, but they have zero chance of success. The SCOTUS has already ruled, and the country took a giant step further towards despotism.

[dead_elvis]

I guess the IJ didn't get the memo; they're supposed to give up and move on with life.

[Jennifer]

I hope it works (though I doubt it). My Connecticut city wants to tear down a big, cool, funky discount store in walking distance of where I live, to put up a parking garage and a Boys and Girls Club. Two years ago, this same city ED'd an old man out of his thirty-acre spread and bulldozed his two houses (with the intention of turning the land over to a developer). Except that deal fell through for some reason, so the land's just been lying vacant since then.

Oh well, it only cost the city two million dollars, two yerar's worth of property taxes on the land, and the moral smudge of kicking an elderly man out of his lifelong home. No biggie.

[Bobster]

A high school teacher taught me that people should use up every single peaceful method to right a wrong before looking for other methods. He said that Americans did this before finally writing the declaration of independence to be free of England. We all know what happened next.

Maybe this attempt to get the court to re-evaluate Kelo represents the people trying to give the government one more chance. Using one more peaceful method. If so, how many more peaceful methods are available?

[Eddy]

Don't get your hopes up Bobster, anybody that makes any motions in that direction is gonna look like Waco. On a side note violence preceeded the declaration by years starting with the Boston Massacre in 1770, Gaspee burning in 1772, battles in Lexington & Concord, Bunker hill...

We can always tell Ed Bradley that this is why we need to have .50 BMG rifles despite his trying to terrorize the public. Picture the ad, "The big 50 - the only cure for the god complex"

[joe]

OK, gun freaks, can one of you please name for me an example of a populace bearing arms that actually managed to fight off the police and military of their own country, without the assistance of a foreign military of roughly equal power?

[Ayn_Randian]

Joe, that's not the point and you know that. It's having the right and ability to do so that counts. After all, even if not one attempt has been successful, I would rather die at Masada than live in a concentration camp.

[Ayn_Randian]

Also, since France entered the revolutinary war very late, I am not sure how much weight your caveat about a foreign military bear. Furthermore, perhaps, even if we cannot fight off the military, the pure pluck and determination (with a lot of self-interest added in) might convince another country to come to our aid.

[Bobster]

I'm not a gun freak. I'm a freak with a gun. (Although I like nut over freak.)

If there are no examples, and there could be, that doesn't really mean anything. There could always be a first. Heck the South came pretty close.

[Johnny Clarke]

I dunno, joe, wouldn't just about every rag-tag communist revolution in South America qualify?

[Johnny Clarke]

Ooh, I just thought of another one...how about a populace in the Middle East armed with IED's causing all sorts of trouble for the single most technologically advanced Army ever fielded in the history of the world? Any particular country spring to mind?

[Hakluyt]

Ayn Randian,

France officially entered the war in 1778. The Revolutiunary War ran from 1775 to 1783. France entering the war was decisive for the American cause - be it in the form of the 40,000 soldiers they sent to fight here (equally the American forces), the amount of armaments sent to American forces, or her navy. Indeed, victory at the battle of Yorktown would have been impossible without the French army and navy.

joe,

Algeria and the Anglo-Irish war of 1919-1921 come directly to mind. I don't believe either the Old IRA nor the FLN had any support from a major or even a minor power.

[Solitudinarian]

Hakluyt,

Didn't the old IRA receive weapons from Imperial Germany before it went belly-up?

[Jennifer]

I heard on NPR this morning that the city of Daytona Beach is positively salivating at the thought of using their newly-expanded ED powers to close down some blue-collar stuff on the oceanfront and turn it over to a developer. They had a city council member saying that things like game arcades with shooting galleries are "too sleazy;" it really clashes with the nearby tourist-traps like Bubba Gump Shrimp Co. They also interviewed the developer, who said that the property owners talking about their rights overlooks the fact that "the majority has rights too;" the developer admitted he could build around the arcade gallery if he had to, but it would be "a hardship."

Why not just cut away the hypocrisy and bullshit, and rewrite the ED provisions of the Constitution to say "Working-class and blue collar people aren't allowed to own anything nice?" Personally, I can tolerate honest evil more easily that hypocritical false virtue.

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

Not that I am aware of.

[joe]

Wrong on both counts, Johnny. Those communist revolution had the aid of "a foreign military of roughly equal power." Where do you think all those Kalashnikovs came from? And the Iraqi insurgency isn't fighting its own government and police, and probably can't win.

Randian, without the French fleet, it would have never gotten beyond a stalemate.

Haylyut, the Irish lost. They didn't fight off squat. Algeria, on the other hand, just might be a legitimate example.

But the old IRA did indeed receive aid from the Germans. That's why the Irish Declaration of Independence references "our gallant allies in Europe."

[Johnny Clarke]

Hmm, if the US ever degenerated into civil war or anarchy, you don't think other countries might not decide to back a given faction? Personal firearms might come in handy during the interim period.

Now, I'd imagine the communist revolutions in question had to be supplied with Kalishnikovs because their country had, well, gun control.

And while we can all agree that the Iraq insurgency won't, ultimately "win" as long as we're willing to keep pumping ya'lls children's and grandchildren's futures into the Middle East, if they're not fighting their own government and police why do they keep blowing up and shooting their own police and blowing up and assassinating their own politicians? Or, how exactly are you defining "their own government and police"?

[joe]

"Now, I'd imagine the communist revolutions in question had to be supplied with Kalishnikovs because their country had, well, gun control."

Really? You're positing a strict system of gun control in pre-civil war Angola? Do tell.

In Iraq, the people in the army and police who took up arms are part of the insurgency. They're fighting off a military and police force created by an outside power.

You actually think the Iraqi guerilla groups around Baghdad consider those units to be "their own government and police?"

[joe]

Wait, I take it back, Haklyut. The Algerians weren't fighting off their own country's police and military, but that of a foreign occupying power.

[Hakluyt]

joe,

Ahh, the Irish won. How do you think the Republic of Ireland got started? You're probably thinking of the 1916 rising. Most folks get 1916 and 1919-1921 confused. Some definate proof of German involved would be helpful; indeed, I'm curious how Germany had the ability to aid the Irish in 1919-1921 when Germany itself had just been defeated in WWI.

Algeria was considered part of France at the time, not just a colony. It was administered just as if it were part of France.

[joe]

OK, the Irish lost in the military sense - they didn't actually "fight off" the British. But they "won" in a political sense, and since that's what the gun toters would be trying to achieve, I guess that counts.

"Algeria was considered part of France at the time." Considered by whom?

[Hakluyt]

joe,

You have provided no proof of German involvement.

[Solitudinarian]

Hakluyt,

Imperial Germany did provide rifles to the Irish for the 1916 Easter Rising, but the ship carrying the rifles was scuttled. Thus sayeth Wikipedia - not the most accurate of sources, but I know I've heard the story elsewhere.

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

Well, the Easter Rising of 1916 is totally seperate from the 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence. And it is the latter that my original statement referred to. I mean yeah, sure, in 1798 the French provided arms to the Irish too; but that's also a seperate incident.

[Hakluyt]

Solitudinarian,

Anyway, the blockade of Germany (which lasted until 1920 as I recall) would have made any German effort likely futile.

[joe]

"Well, the Easter Rising of 1916 is totally seperate from the 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence."

Because of the well-known tendency of rifles to turn moldy and disintegrate after three years. Of course. Why, comparing that to 1798 is a completely valid and useful contribution.

*chuckle* I recommend you read the book "Rebels" about the events leading up to the foundation of the Irish Republic before spouting off about what you obviously don't understand. *chuckle*

[Solitudinarian]

Hakluyt,

"April 21, 1916 - The Aud arrives at Banna Strand, Co. Kerry, from Germany with 20,000 rifles for use of the Volunteers in the Easter Uprising; they are discovered by the British and the crew scuttles the ship. Roger Casement, who is following behind the Aud in a submarine, lands safely, but is captured later."

http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/02Hist/4April3.html

But I concede the point - you and I were talking about two different historical events.

[Johnny Clarke]

joe - I admit I am not prepared to argue every popular revolution throughout history on a case-by-case basis, so I will withdraw from the field on that topic.

I would also concede that nobody, nobody in their right mind can believe that a bunch of citizens with rifles are going to defeat the juggernaut that is the US Government/military. But I must ask, joe, if a government truly became tyrannical, what would be your solution or course of action?

[joe]

Johnny,

Tyrannical governments have only ever been brought down in three ways - the USSR/Serbian way, in which a popular movement wins over a substantial portion of the military/security forces; the American revolution, in which a popular movement allies itself with a foreign power; and the World War II way, in which a foreign power overthrows the government of its enemy.

Identifying the members of the security forces as "jack-booted stormtroopers" or whatever eliminates the first option; adopting xenophobic nationalism as a guiding principle rules out the second, and puts you on the side of the tyrants in the third.

So basically, the gun hoarding rightist philosophy of the pro-gun, anti-government "sagebrush rebellion" faction is a hopeless, useless strategy for resisting tyranny.

[Anvilwyrm]

Clearly only proper zoning can save us from tyranny!

[joe]

I'm sorry, but the Table of Uses makes it clear that a Concentration Camp is not an allowed use the Experiment in Republican Self Governance Overlay Zone (ERSCOZ).

Not even with a Special Permit.

[Johnny Clarke]

BUT, if they can demonstrate that the slave labor in the concentration camp qualifies as an economic improvement, it should be legal, correct?

[Johnny Clarke]

As for the 3 forms of successful tyranny eradication, OK, I'll fall back and ponder those.

But you have to admit the gun hoarding rightist "sagebrush rebellion" approach would make a far better Summer blockbuster movie.

[Lowdog]

And of course, just because someone 'knows' something will never work, that means you shouldn't even try.

C'mon joe, you're better than that.

And yes, if there was some sort of revolution in this country, a large number of our military folks would side with the populace and not the government.