Have You No Sense of Decency Redux?

"Use of Terri Schiavo's Grave Marker a Reprehensible and Repugnant Act says Christian Defense Coalition," according to the latest press release from the so-called Christian Defense Coalition. The alleged outrage?

Terri Schiavo's husband had her death date listed as February 25, 1990 (when her brain died) instead of March 31, 2005 (when her heart stopped). The best medical evidence available and numerous determinations by various state and federal courts found that Terri did unfortunately die way back in 1990.

When will these disgusting, self-righteous ghouls let poor Terri Schiavo rest in peace?

Comments

[Dar]

Never. It's way too much fun being outraged about something that's none of their business than to examine their own idiocy.

[Jeff]

Propaganda idea:
Take a high-rez cat scan image of Schiavo's dried shrivled brain sitting in her skull cavity. Make notes as to where certain brain fuctions used to reside.
Underneath it print the words "Human Dignity?"

I hope these christian defense people spend the last decade of their lives tied to machines, each prayer to their god reverberating through the plastic tubes plugged into assorted orifices.
They are monsters.

[dhex]

it's too bad the husband can't sue them as private citizens (jeb and co, i mean).

it's also too bad his life has been marked by this bitterness, etc etc. it's not going to help him, though i certainly don't begrudge him is tonic.

[A nurse]

Although I don't care what they put on her tombstone, the fact is that brain death (no brain activity at all, which means that there is no spontaneous respiration and no reaction to any stimulus) is the legal equivalent of death. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, not brain dead (if she was brain dead she would have had to be on a ventilator in order to breathe). A person in a persistent vegetative state is, for legal purposes, still alive

[Joe]

what is on the death certificate?

[Dynamist]

nurse: We can't let such details get in the way of Bailey's (et al.) sense of righteousness.

[sage]

A nurse,

Are you 'a nurse' or 'a lawyer?' Because you seem to be combining medical diagnoses and legal opinions. Not that you couldn't be both, of course. But then, you could also be neither.

[ChicagoTom]

Is there anything legally preventing one from putting any date they want on a grave stone?

Could my headstone have a date of death of Feb 30 ?

Why is it so many people see fit to pipe up about other peoples business. I mean, now that she is officially gone, what does it matter what her tombstone said.

[Ron Bailey]

Nurse:
Excellent point. My self-righteousness has evidently gotten away with me too. You're right that the legal standard is still whole brain death, not cortical death. However, PVS, also sometimes called cortical death, is the irreversible loss of the part of the brain controlling judgment, reason, and consciousness. For all practical purposes, Terri tragically lost her consciousness, memories, dreams, hopes, and desires way back in 1990. Surely that's dead enough. I still say, it's high time to let her rest in peace.

[W. B. Heffernan, Jr.]

The initial nine comments are truly terrifying. They all sound like something that Adolf Eichmann would have said.

H.

[zach]

well, since she's been vegetative since 1990, i would venture to say that she was basically at peace then. i suppose it would depend on what religious beliefs you have... but i think the question now is more one of letting her husband live in peace. and her parents, for that matter. i suppose in a case like this, which touches on the beliefs of a whole country, that won't be possible for a while yet.

[rafuzo]

You know, since she's been, you know, dead since 1990, who cares if her body was kept alive, or if the date of death is 2005 or 1990?

It always seemed sketchy to me that Michael Schiavo quickly got on with the business of finding another chick and settling down, yet wouldn't marry her until Terry Schiavo's heart stopped (but certainly not before her body had grown cold). I mean, if she was dead from 1990 on, their marriage was over, right?

Then again, it's harder to argue next of kin when you're divorced. Even harder to argue you're entitled to death benefits.

This whole affair has been one ugly page in american history. It's rare when both sides of the debate are equally repugnant. I think it's high time we let the issue rest in peace.

[gaius marius]

speaking of, i read jeb bush has started an inquiry into the incident in which schiavo was originally rendered into a coma. apparently, ol' jeb hasn't gotten enough political mileage out of this dead horse.

[gaius marius]

oops -- no pun intended, obviously.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Apparently the plate on Schiavo's grave was covered in sand. What the fuck is up with that?

As usual, Shakespear says it best: "Much ado about nothing". Anyone outside the family/friends who are getting worked up about this, especially after this point

NEED TO GET A FUCKING LIFE

[fyodor]

W.B. Heffernan, Jr.,

"May I get you a drink?" may also be the kind of thing Adolf Eichmann would say. The key is, is it the kind of thing only Adolf Eichmann or someone of like mind would say? Show us why these comments reflect the same sentiment that we find objectionable in Adolf Eichmann, and your words will begin to have some meaning.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Yeah, gaius, I saw that about Jeb Bush. I thought he was supposed to be the smart one. Does he think the idiot christian right is going to coast him into the White House? Moron.

[Jeff]

How does brain death bring us to Eichmann? He got the trains on time.

If you can't think, you're not much good to yourself, let alone others. Those who claim that the vegetative need to be kept alive and "healthy" for dignity's sake are inhuman. I mean really inhuman. Close to psychopathic.

Who is in Gone With The Wind who stays in bed with the corpse?

[sage]

Also, the whole idea of the "Christian Defense Coalition" bothers me. Like God needs a stinkin' lobbyist.

[gaius marius]

Does he think the idiot christian right is going to coast him into the White House?

perhaps he is the smart one. the history of democracy is replete with examples of noble hero-leaders riding to authority on the wings of a radical militant cult with a quality propaganda arm and large war chest.

[zach]

lol, subtle.

[James Kabala]

Rafuzo is right that Bailey et al. have consistently chosen to ignore the scuzzy side of Schiavo's behavior. The most reprehensible part of the grave is not the death date, but the inscription "I kept my promise" - a promise he didn't see fit to mention to the court until years after 1990, when it became convenient for him.
Jeff: You're thinking of A Rose for Emily by Faulkner.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

gm:

You're scaring me, dude 🙁

[Jeff]

I think its Rhett Butler and his daughter. Jennifer just reread it. She'll know.

[zach]

i did think that statement on the stone was kind of strange. i would normally assume that the word "I" on someone's tombstone is referring to the person who's actually dead.

[Dynamist]

Ron: It is not Terri's peace which is disturbed. The living are left with the ambiguous issues her situation brought to our attention. Although my beef was with the legal process, there's more righteousness and ire over where life and death meet. If PVS/cortical death removes the qualities you list, an afflicted person is not completely dead, but perhaps has lost their humanity? Can a no-longer-human body still exercise a legal right to refuse treatment? If humanity is inalienable, how does society resolve the desire of some to care for the incapacitated against the desire of others to "end suffering"? Is the current system sufficient?

[Shem]

It always seemed sketchy to me that Michael Schiavo quickly got on with the business of finding another chick and settling down, yet wouldn't marry her until Terry Schiavo's heart stopped (but certainly not before her body had grown cold). I mean, if she was dead from 1990 on, their marriage was over, right?

This neglects the fact that Schiavo's parents told him to move on. And it was eight years before he did it. He spent the previous eight years working with the parents to earn money for Terri's care. In fact, the problems didn't start until 2000, when the Schindlers sued because they believed they hadn't recieved their fair share of the death benefits. And your second point is moot because when the whole matter heated up, the State of Florida became Terri's legan guardian. Michael Schiavo had no way to order the tube removed because the decision was ultimately out of his hands. I have no idea what sort of person Michael Schiavo is, but nobody who went through what he went through deservs this sort of treatment, and I find it repulsive that it was carried out by people who just a few years before claimed to love him like a son.

[D.A. Ridgely]

Surely, Mr. Bailey, she is resting in peace regardless of what we do now.

[gaius marius]

You're scaring me, dude 🙁

i scare me sometimes, mr nice guy.

[p]

My mom is actually a friend of the Schindlers and knows a number of people close to them, including the priest who said Terri's funeral.
(She is proud of calling Michael Schiavo's attorney a murderer at one protest outside Terri's hospice. Ick, I know.)

Anyway, the Schindlers don't seem like bad people, just incredibly misguided and creepily religious, in a zombie kind of way.

[Jennifer]

Jeff-
Rheet didn't go to bed with his dead daughter; he refused to let her be buried because "Miss Bonnie's afraid of the dark." The sleeping-with-a-corpse bit was Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily."

And why *can't* Schiavo sue Jeb? Surely there must be a law which state that an elected official can't abuse his position to harass a private citizen.

[crimethink]

When will these disgusting, self-righteous ghouls let poor Terri Schiavo rest in peace?

So, anyone who considers Mr. Schiavo's actions despicable, and says so, is a disgusting, self-righteous ghoul? And Terri will have no rest until everyone agrees with you or shuts up?

For someone who urges a tolerant, multicultural outlook on abortion and stem cell research, you do seem to have a hard time living and letting live...

[David]

Jennifer,

I tend to doubt that, unless it were a old law or part of the FL constitution. For one, it seems logical. For two, it would have to be enacted by public officials against their own interest. You know how often that happens.

[rafuzo]

This neglects the fact that Schiavo's parents told [Michael Schiavo] to move on. And it was eight years before he did it. He spent the previous eight years working with the parents to earn money for Terri's care. In fact, the problems didn't start until 2000, when the Schindlers sued because they believed they hadn't recieved their fair share of the death benefits. And your second point is moot because when the whole matter heated up, the State of Florida became Terri's legan guardian. Michael Schiavo had no way to order the tube removed because the decision was ultimately out of his hands.

I don't have the facts in front of me, but I seem to recall Schiavo initially tried to have her feeding tube removed in 1994, and in 1998 he very nearly succeeded before an injunction was levied to reinsert the feeding tube. That doesn't sound to me like he was holding a torch for poor Mrs. Schiavo. There were also the reports of abuse on his part, reports for which there is no lasting evidence. I don't know if those stories were planted by people opposed to Mr. Schiavo but if there's an ounce of truth to them, they certainly raise questions.

Personally, I know I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that condition, but for pete's sake I had a hard time deciding to put my obviously pained, obviously terminally-ill pet to rest some years ago. I think one must be careful in labelling "ghouls" the friends and relatives who may not be able to rationally deal with the situation.

A tolerant person condemns the actions and deeds, not the thoughts and values, of their opponents. This distinction isn't made very often these days. Especially in light of the good point Dynamist raises about the fine line(s) at play in what constitutes death, and guessing what someone would have wanted (since its been too late to ask Mrs. Schiavo since 1990).

[Xrlq]

Let's see if I got this straight. Michael Schiavo uses Terri's grave to take one last gratuitous swipe at her family by listing separate dates for when she supposedly "departed this earth" (collapsed but didn't die) vs. when she became "at peace" (died), and tops it off by also using her grave to brag about what I wonderful guy he was having kept his supposed promise. All that makes the Schindlers and their supporters a bunch of disgusting, self-righteous ghouls. Right?

[Jennifer]

Maybe Schiavo tried to remove the feeding tube because he hated the thought of the vibrant woman he loved existing as nothing more than an empty drooling shell with a dinosaur-sized brain (as shown in the autopsy). If anything happened to destroy my brain (which is to say also my intelligence, my personality, my humanity and--for the religious-minded, my soul), I'd hope to God that Jeff would let my body depart rather than keep it around like some morbid souvenir.

[David]

xlrq,

If that what he believes, how is it a gratuitous swipe at the Schindlers?

[Jeff's Manservant]

Jeff, you can keep my body around as a morbid souvenir...

[Xrlq]

David, that question is almost too dumb to answer. Maybe he thinks the Schindlers are a group of evil, nasty SOBs, but that doesn't mean it would be OK to put that on his wife's tombstone.

[crimethink]

Ron,

Calling something another kind of death does not make it death. For instance, when I lost my little toe to frostbite, I experienced "tissue death" -- should that be on my tombstone, too?

[dhex]

"Maybe he thinks the Schindlers are a group of evil, nasty SOBs, but that doesn't mean it would be OK to put that on his wife's tombstone."

true, sort of. they did, after all, accuse him of murder, wife-beating and mercenary tendencies. despite that, it's something he may regret in the future. bitterness won't serve him very well forever.

at the same time, what if he was telling the truth and was upholding her wishes, and it took 15 years to finally do what she asked? that'd probably be something you'd want to set in stone, so to speak.

[Jennifer]

Tombstones, like funerals, are for the living, not the dead. The tombstone date is probably because Michael doesn't like to think of that drooling brainless thing we all saw on television as his wife; his wife was the pretty woman we occasionally saw in photographs dating back to the late '80s. All he had for the last fifteen years was an unrotted corpse with a heartbeat.

[David]

Xrlq,

I'll admit that it's a strange thing to do(idiotic, considering the media storm was over) but he didn't come out and attack the Schindlers. He just put his beliefs, which were the basis of his case, on the marker.

Here's another dumb question. How long before someone changes the marker to read Murdered March 31, 2005?

[thoreau]

The only thing to do with a tragic situation like this is to walk away and try to find peace. I've heard so many things that, if true, would completely vindicate one side or the other. At some point you have to put it aside and move on.

It isn't easy, but it's what has to be done. For their sake, I hope that the Schindlers find the strength to do that.

[Dave]

Who. The Hell. Cares.
By all measurements of all sides concerned, she's dead. It's over. Unless they're worried that archaeologists 10,000 years from now will find the gravestone and be horribly mislead, I think people can put this to rest and get a life.

[Stevo Darkly]

Note to my future tombstone engravers:

As far as I'm concerned, I died the day they canceled Everybody Loves Raymond.

[Xrlq]

Here's another dumb question. How long before someone changes the marker to read Murdered March 31, 2005?

Hopefully, forever. But if anyone does do something that stupid, you won't hear me defending him, let alone pulling a Bailey and using the incident as proof he is a ghoul.

[bubba]

Did you just complain about an issue failing to go away, by LINKING TO IT?

[rafuzo]

Note to my future tombstone engravers:

As far as I'm concerned, I died the day they canceled Everybody Loves Raymond.

Check, and mate.

[Mona]

nurse is correct, as Ron Bailey's admission and discussion of cortical damage make clear. (I share Bailey's outrage at the Save Terri! forces, but was surprised to see him make that error about brain death). As a nurse, she must know what brain death is, and need not be a lawyer to have that knowledge-- but if it matters, I'm a lawyer and hereby state that she is correct.

Michael Schiavo and the Florida courts have been subjected to some of the worst lynch mob hysteria imaginable.To see that Michael and the courts have behaved impeccably, and with an over-abundance of concern for Terri and her rights and well-being, one need only read the Guardian Ad Litem report drafted for Gov. Jeb Bush in 12/03 pursuant to Terri's Law I. Find it here. (pdf)

[R C Dean]

the history of democracy is replete with examples of noble hero-leaders riding to authority on the wings of a radical militant cult with a quality propaganda arm and large war chest.

I thought John Kerry lost?

[jw]

Wait and see which side is first to come out with the book or the made-for-television docu-drama.
Then we'll know which side was for real. My money is on the Schindlers beating everyone to the punch.

[SPD]

I thought John Kerry lost?

Well played, RC, but the larger militant cult with the larger war chest won. 🙂

[Jim Walsh]

I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut them up?

[dhex]

try challenging them to an arm wresting competition.

i've found that yelling "oh, shit! the rapture!" in the middle of the contest is a cheap victory in and of itself.

[Eric the .5b]

I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut them up?

Try doing an Objectivism riff? 😉

[PJF]

Just for a sense of history, the epitaph for Nancy Cruzan was very similar; it listed her birthdate, the day she died, and the day she was finally removed from life-support (also using the phrase "at peace").

And yes, I'm of the belief that in the relevant, meaningful and human sense, she died when her brain was destroyed, years ago. What was left was her corpse, and those who equated it with "her", and tried to forever prolong its existence were the ones doing the real disservice to the dignity of human life.

In any case, it's interesting that people who seem so outraged, so emotionally invested, etc., etc., don't seem to have much of a clue as to the (recent) history of this issue.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut them up?"

Just stare at them dead-eyed, and drool.

[Ron Bailey]

crimethink:

I, for one, think that your brain is a more significant bit of tissue than you toe. 🙂

[James Kabala]

How valid is "cortical death" as a medical term? A Google search turns up 339 hits, so Bailey didn't make up the phrase, but "persistent vegetative state" has 206,000 hits, so clearly it is a much more well-established term.

[Jim Walsh]

"I'm tired of Bible-thumpers telling me I'm "anti-life" for my views on this subject. Any suggestions for a snappy answer to shut them up?"

Got one - how's 'bout this:

Bible-Thumping A-Hole: "You're anti-life."

Me: "You can't kill what's already dead; it's redundant. That would be like someone giving you a lobotomy."