House Defies Bush

This just in:

The House voted Wednesday to block the FBI and the Justice Department from using the Patriot Act to search library and book store records.

Despite a veto threat from President Bush, lawmakers voted 238-187 to block the part of the anti-terrorism law that allows the government to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects.

After years of complaining that Bush never vetoes a bill, I find myself annoyed at the thought that he could pick up the habit now.

Comments

[kmw]

At least by this vote, there's hope that the PATRIOT act will expire at the end of the year.

[crimethink]

"If there are terrorists in libraries studying how to fly planes, how to put together biological weapons, how to put together chemical weapons, nuclear weapons ... we have to have an avenue through the federal court system so that we can stop the attack before it occurs," said Rep. Tom Feeney, R-Fla.

And unless they actually check the books out, there will be no record and thus no avenue. If you really wanted to be secure, you'd have to force libraries to keep records on everyone who even touches a book.

Crap, I might be giving them ideas...

[friendofliberty]

If you support libraries, you are supporting the terrorists.

[friendofliberty]

Bush will veto this but he won't veto Campaign finance reform. Quite the statist.

[Not David]

I don't get it. I mean, I want to get it. I want to believe. But I don't think I trust them. What are they really up to? Are they lulling us into a false sense of security here (or rather a false sense of freedom) before they do something really nasty?

[drew]

As I understand it several of the provisions of the patriot act need to be renewed. One would imagine that in the best of worlds this removal would be attached to the bill renewing the other awful provisions, which would eventually lead bush to veto the whole thing.

However I'll believe that Bush actually knows how to veto something when I see it. I'm betting that nothing gets vetoed this time either.

[Ken Shultz]

I just don't think there's any pro-Patriot lobby to speak of. Everybody from right wing, illuminati conspiracy nuts to the ACLU are against the Patriot Act, what constituency is for it?

...Patriot's a bully pulpit piece of legislation if ever there was one.

[Jesse Walker]

what constituency is for it?

The Justice Department.

[Anonymo the Anonymous]

I just don't think there's any pro-Patriot lobby to speak of. Everybody from right wing, illuminati conspiracy nuts to the ACLU are against the Patriot Act, what constituency is for it?

Step inside the South, America's "Heartland," where Bush shits holy shining gold.

[Shawn Smith]

What constituency is for it?

I would guess, in addition to the Religious South, so called "security moms." You know, the same ones who applauded the Raich vs. Gonzales opinion, because it means that they don't have to worry that their precious little darlings will see MJ use actually relieving suffering.

[Eddy]

They couldn't go after the libraries because this is profiling only those terrorists who don't have internet access. The other shoe is that libraries are an endangered species. You see, since the internet is interstate, the commerce clause applies and they will shut down these local home grown terrorist hangouts. Frankly, with all this terrorist outsourcing, the local terrorist industry is simply going to dry up anyway.

[Jack]

Shawn Smith wrote: "I would guess, in addition to the Religious South, so called 'security moms.'"

True, they'll support it in polls, but do they actually lobby for it? Other than the "Fighting Terrorism = Doing God's Will" crowd, I would think the only other lobbying block (and probably the better financed one), is what could be called (in an homage to Ike) the "Security Industrial Complex", i.e., providers of security services, technology, and so forth.

[Ken Shultz]

"Step inside the South, America's "Heartland," where Bush shits holy shining gold."

That's what I mean, the bully pulpit is all the impetus the Patriot Act's got. Trot some Homeland Security People out to swear up and down that without the Patriot Act, Al Qaeda 'll kill all the Security Mom's children--that's all the support Patriot will ever get.

The NAACP doesn't have any vested interest in the Patriot Act and neither do the people who support the AMA. The AFL-CIO doesn't care much about Patriot and, as far as I can tell, neither does the AARP. Does the Pro-Life lobby care? What about the NRA?

Does Boeing care about Patriot? Does the steel industry? What about farmers?

...As Jessie Walker pointed out, there are people in the Justice Department, and elsewhere I'm sure, who support Patriot, but outside of Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia, why would any congressman worry about their votes? Patriot's existence was, and, I believe, is a function of bully pulpit scare tactics, and that's it. ...I'm not saying that there isn't an argument that the President should scare people into accepting laws that let the government violate the Fourth Amendment, First Amendment, etc. in war time. For all I know, maybe we should be scared.

But either way, outside the Beltway, there isn't any constituency for Patriot that I can see. If Patriot disappeared tomorrow, would anyone demonstrate for its return?

If we had a President who didn't use his pulpit to scare us so, what support there is for things like the Patriot would, I suspect, dry up and go away. Some happy day, the Security Moms will pick up their soccer balls again, and they won't miss Patriot when it's gone. Environmentalists, etc. aren't like that.

...Anyway, it doesn't surprise me that Congress got ahead of the President on this.

[Jon H]

Everybody from right wing, illuminati conspiracy nuts to the ACLU are against the Patriot Act, what constituency is for it?

Hannity and his jingo-stoked minions?

[Adam]

whoop-ti-doo, they got rid of the least controversial but most talked about part of the patriot act. ban sneak-and-peek searches and self-written search warrants and then we'll talk. the house is still a bunch of crazed loons - Hannity's elected jingo-stoked minions.

incidentally, everybody loves to bash the patriot act and everybody michael moore certainly had a great time trashing congress over it, but has anyone actually read the damn thing? all this talk about improving coordination between the fbi and cia - there's gotta be something worthwhile that went on in all those pages..

anyway, ban that sneak-and-peek crap and the self-written search warrants and all that crap about banks having to report customers who sign up and customers who refuse to sign up after being informed that they have to give home rather than P.O. Box addresses and anything else like it - the crap about auto dealers being "financial institutions" ... wow they really did put some nonsense in all those pages, huh?

[Rick Barton]

Yes! This is a start. At first I was kind of afraid that this might soften some resolve to let the sun set on those other provisions but this vote seems like a strong margin of victory. And if Bush vetoes this after never vetoing even ONE spending bill, I say he's not welcome in the GOP anymore.

[thoreau]

And if Bush vetoes this after never vetoing even ONE spending bill, I say he's not welcome in the GOP anymore.

I hate to break this to you, Rick, but you are the one who isn't welcome in the GOP anymore.

Sucks, don't it?

[Rick Barton]

Paul,

I appreciate your giving evidence for my side of this little Odigo debate with in the larger 9/11 case I was making. I understand your frustration in telling Brian what you recall and him seeming to want to not believe you. And I know that 9/11 might hold painful memories for you. However, I think that insult is almost never appropriate on these threads so I have to differ with your choice to insult Brian.

[Rick Barton]

Sorry,

That was meant for another thread.

[Apostate]

That's OK Rick.

We're always watching.

And by the way, the parts of the PATRIOT Act you don't like - that's part of our plan, too.

[Rick Barton]

thoreau Ph.D,

Yep. It's time for a battle for the soul of the party. I'm ready to carry the principles of limited government, including civil liberties, non-intervention and capitalism forward. Will you be joining me or are you going to remake the Democratic party? Or perhaps go with that other party that I often vote for: http://www.lp.org/

[Rick Barton]

Apostate,

Keep doing stuff, pretty soon it might be something I like.

[Rick Barton]

I'm getting even stronger Apostate = thoreau vibes.

[Rick Barton]

...of course I could be wrong. I often am about these identity things.

[thoreau]

Sorry, not Apostate. Although that label would describe me in many ways.

I dunno know what I'll do politically. A lot of it depends on the local dynamics. We have a system where representation is based on geography. This isn't a proportional system like Switzerland, where you can vote for the Liberal Party in a legislative race no matter where you live, and have a reasonable expectation that they'll win a seat in the proportional race.

In the voting booth I'll vote for a decent maverick from the 2 parties if one is available, and the LP if one isn't. In volunteerism, I'll volunteer for a decent maverick from the 2 parties in one is available, or a respectable LP candidate otherwise.

[TDM]

If we think we have terrorism mostly under control here with the PATRIOT act then we should cut the number of cops and cut the law enforcement budget. People violate civil liberties, and the fewer people needed in law enforcement the better. The law enforcement budget is a bigger restriction on freedom than the PATRIOT act. Anything that can help shrink the size of law enforcement is a good thing.

[Rick Barton]

This would be an excellent time for all of us to find out how our congressperson voted. Get a hold of them and praise or scold, as the case may be, and tell them that we want them to vote to allow the provisions that are set to expire, do so.
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

[kwais]

Rick,
Apostate is a Jew, like "the jooos oh the jooos"
And Dr Thoreau is a Catholc, like Sean Hannity.

[Robert]

According to Powerline this bill does squat.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010747.php

[David Woycechowsky]

THey are really divided on this one over in Freeperland. Its fun to watch. Me, I have less than perfect trust in the executive branch sometimes.

[Isaac Bartram]

Me, I'm bettin' the terrurists have kidnapped the real republicans and put clones of them in the Capitol.

See there's a logical explanation for everything.

[drf]

Issac:

Kang got to them? Maybe he could read "how to cook for(ty) humans" 🙂

Rick:

once again, you give the ralleying cry so We the People can take responsibility for our legislators. That is a good thing. Being stuck in looney liberal land (Illinois where DICK Durbin, Barak Obama, and our rep Rahm hit the left wing side of clintonium), we have the wonderful merging of pro post oklahoma city, anti patriot. FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

And I have always appreciated your even demeanor here, even in the most heated of discussions (viz: yesterday), when people hurl the meanest of insults your way. And you have avoided use of the "c-word". (*chuckle*)

Shout out to GG if you're out there with yet another nick.

rack me.

out.

[David 2]

If the House was really serious about neutering the PATRIOT Act, they'd stick the measure inside one of the appropriations bills like they do for everything else they really want passed.

[joe]

Isaac,

You're theory has the added value of demonstrating the danger of reproductive technologies.

[RTL]

So any two bit lawyer can get ahold of library records, but the FBI, if investigating a terrorism lead, can not?

Actually, the real brilliance of the Patriot Act, much like Gitmo, is that it really is not a big deal but has the left so flustered W can do whatever he wants in the real consequential areas, for better or for worse. Please spare the predictable retorts on that last statement. But in my mind it's a reverse bully pulpit that doesn't work for the left. They decry all this paranoid drivel about all these rights being surpressed which, of course, they aren't. It didn't help in the last election and yet the left seemed pretty pre-occupied with it and still is.

[joe]

The last election ended with an incumbent president, during time of war, winning re-election by three points. Please, read a little history, and spare us the Man-Date talk.

[Ken Shultz]

"But in my mind it's a reverse bully pulpit that doesn't work for the left. They decry all this paranoid drivel about all these rights being surpressed which, of course, they aren't."

Well I'm not comin' from the left, but it seems pretty clear to me that Patriot supresses our rights. Have you taken a good look at the fourth amendment lately? ...Have you seen the part about how the FBI can single-handedly hits people with gag orders?

...I don't remember anyone from the Bush Administration arguing that Patriot doesn't supress our rights. Plenty have said that it's a necessary evil. ...I think you're pretty lonely out there on that limb, all by yourself.

...Got any quotes from the Administration sayin' that Patriot doesn't supress our rights?

[Rick Barton]

kwais,

Yeah, I just thought that Apostate might be thoreau. Apostate can be kinda funny. He said that he and some other Jews run the world and they made me their dupe because they were using my anti-Israeli government positions to make it seem like I hated Jews. So I told him that I would only consider playing along only if I didn't have to pretend to hate Milton Friedman and Joey Ramone.

drf,

Thank you. You are a gentleman and a scholar. And speaking of the latter, it won't be too long before you are our newest PhD here at H&R, right?

joe,

So then the terrorists are Bio-tech luddites! Ron Bailey will make short work of them.

[Rick Barton]

Look for the government to concoct something about terrorists in the near future in an attempt to shore up support to keep those awful Patriot Act provisions from sun setting.

[crimethink]

joe,

Yes, in a time of war, specifically a war that was going very badly. As for reading history, you might want to read up on some Civil War history yourself; Lincoln would not have been reelected had the election taken place in 1863 instead of 1864... Not to mention Nixon defeating the incumbent party during the Vietnam War.

The one thing you can be thankful for about the Eternal War on Terror, is that the Democrats will always have an excuse for electoral impotence.