Andrea Dworkin, RIP

Villainess of the porn wars, ur-feminazi, foe of heterosexual intercourse, prison reformer, signifier of all things PC/radical-feminist/anti-patriarchal/insane, and irresistable target for reasonable people everywhere has died at age 58. Elaine Showalter once said nobody would wake up at 4am to watch Dworkin's funeral, but looking over the range of people from the left, right, and center who came together to despise her, we begin to see Dworkin's real legacy: She was a uniter, not a divider.

Comments

[xray]

RIP

[Jennifer]

In honor of her passing, tonight I will have sex with my boyfriend, all the while reminding him that ANY TIME a man has sex with a woman, it is no better than rape. I will whisper sweet nothings like "why don't you respect my personhood, you patriarchal bastard?" I will refer to the act as "coitus," rather than sex or lovemaking or even fucking, and then, when he mysteriously decides he's not in the mood after all, I will use that as proof that he doesn't really love me and men are all evil.

Just kidding. I love and respect my boyfriend far too much to ever Dworkinize him.

[Chaka]

Jennifer, Jennifer.

Keep it down, hon. The men are talking right now.

As for Dworkin -- What a piece of ass!

[matthew hogan]

Is death just another form of rape?

[mike2039]

I just looked at a picture of this woman and all I can say is that I hope she is buried with her pointy hat and broomstick It always seems that that the real far out man hating feminist are usually women that no man would have anyway. I would have to wonder if all the man hating just comes from resentment that no man will would give them the time of day.

[Mike]

mike2039, thanks for making it clear that Dworkin wasn't 100% batshit insane in thinking men are slime.

[Rodney]

Paglia is dancing in the street.

[Mark Borok]

I'm a firm believer in "de mortuis nil nisi bonum", but sometimes it's just so, so hard.

[joe]

There are two kinds of women in mike2039's world: "No man would have her" and "Must be a dyke."

[Akira MacKenzie]

I feel a song coming on...

Ding-dong the witch is dead,
which ole' witch, the wicked witch
Ding-dong the wicked witch is deeeeeeead!

So what disease do we have to thank for dumping a bucket of water on her head?

[smacky]

I don't know how any of you can possibly not feel totally evil for making hay over someone's death....

[Sebastian]

"Dead men don't rape."

-Dworkin

"Dead women don't mind being raped."

-Sebastian

[Gimme Back My Dog]

joe,

So it is not OK for mike2039 to say that AD's distateful views about men were rooted in the fact that she couldn't get laid, but it is OK for you to say that mike2039's distateful views about women are rooted in the fact that he can't get laid?

[mike2039]

I?m sorry to have offended the politically correct; I'm new to this forum and didn't realize that political correctness was enforced here. However, my statement could also be applied to extremely misogynistic men, who tend to be overweight, bald, ugly and single. Not a category I myself fit into.

[Marty]

A "eulogy" for Dworkin....

Originally posted at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/martybeckerman/

I've said for a long time that the day Andrea Dworkin dies will be the happiest of my life. Thank you, Jesus Christ. Dworkin was easily the craziest of the Femi-Nazis, a true lunatic who brainwashed millions of young women with her radical man-hating agenda. She did not support equality; she simply despised males, as well as any female who enjoyed sex with males. She lobbied for laws -- which were passed (and subsequently repealed) in Canada and Indiana -- that banned any book deemed offensive to a single woman, including The Odyssey, Shakespeare, Hemingway, Joyce, etc. She was pure evil, she hated freedom, and the human race should rejoice over her death. My only regret is that I cannot masturbate all over the wrinkled/twisted face of her rotting corpse before dancing upon her freshly dug grave and singing "Joy to the World."

Here are some pleasant Dworkin quotes.......

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks."

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."

?Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership.?

"Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

"Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free."

Dworkin defining **consensual** heterosexual intercourse: ?Loathing in the form of semen driven into her to dirty her or make her more dirty or make her dirty by him.?

"Rape is the primary heterosexual model for sexual relating. "

"Rape is the primary emblem of romantic love."

"Rape is the means by which a woman is initiated into her womanhood
as it is defined by men."

Of course, this is ironic because Dworkin is so fucking nasty, NO MAN WOULD FUCK HER IN A MILLION YEARS. (Update: Dworkin was married, but did not have "intercourse" with her husband. Makes sense.) Have fun toasting in Hell, you cunt-faced ugly-ass bizznitch. I sincerely hope you fucking suffered until your dying breath, and the simple thought of this fills me happiness and confidence in the basic goodness of the Universe.

[Steve]

Oh, lighten up, joe. I don't know whether mike2039's attitutes about Dworkin are generalizable to all women. Personally, I think it's appropriate and funny to make all sorts of cave-man chauvanist jokes about someone like Dworkin, even though I'd never say those things about women in general, a random woman on the street, or your sister.

[Douglas Fletcher]

oy vey

[joe]

A lot of the people who hate Dworkin are creeps, I guess.

[smacky]

mike2039,

I'm not singleing anyone out here, and I'm definately not trying to enforce political correctness, which I think is a cop-out. In fact, the reason I said that comment is primarily because I don't understand how anyone could make an individual's death into a political opportunity for themselves. My point was only: She's dead now. Leave her alone.

[Jennifer]

Smacky and Joe-
I never bought into the idea that once a person dies you're suddenly forbidden to lobby the same criticism you would when they were alive. Andrea Dworkin was an insane creature who did a lot of damage to the feminist cause, by giving misogynists a target to point to and say "SEE? THAT'S what feminism's all about!"

And that is one reason why I'm glad the crazy old fart is dead.

[smacky]

Fair enough, Jennifer...onward plough.

[Vynnie]

Mike2039: Welcome to the forum. We're libertarians here, so we believe in the right to be PC, the right to be irreverent, and the right to hassle each other incessantly about it.

[joe]

Jennifer, I would consider the politically charged rape fantasies of Marty and the riff on Dworkin's appearance to be juvenile cheap shots if their target were alive.

Sure, criticize her ideas all you want. But if I had people like that cheering me on, I'd ask what it was about my beliefs that caused us to end up on the same side.

[Jennifer]

Joe-
I'll agree that I personally disapprove of making comments about her appearance, but at the same time a woman who's so batpoop insane that she doesn't even brush her hair or change her overalls before testifiying BEFORE CONGRESS is leaving the door open to ridicule.

As to the rape fantasies. . .yes, they're rude, but according to the late Dworkin all male non-virgins are vile rapists, anyway. You included. So what have they to lose? Heck, my own attitude is that I don't like being hated for no reason, so if someone insists on hating me I'll damned sure give them one.

[Stevo Darkly]

I think she did some damage in her time, but now that's over. At least she gave us plenty to talk about and think about. I'm sure that right now she's up there straightening out the Biggest Patriarch of All. RIP.

I will whisper sweet nothings like "why don't you respect my personhood, you patriarchal bastard?"

That's actually kinda hot.

[Steve]

Sorry, joe. Dworkin was an enemy of freedom in every sense of the word, a censor right down to her blue nose and her black heart. If people hate her because of that, fine. If they hate her for other reasons, some of them less noble, it's no reason for me to question my beliefs.

[joe]

Jennifer,

"but according to the late Dworkin all male non-virgins are vile rapists, anyway. You included. So what have they to lose?"

According to many of the libertoid regulars, I am a thief for receiving a public salary. Yet I don't take these idiots' babblings as a justification to actually steal purses from old ladies.

[just another lurker]

"A lot of the people who hate Dworkin are creeps, I guess."

And your opinion of Ms. Dworkin, joe? Enlighten us.

[Christopher W.]

If naught else, Ms. Dworkin was a sad example of taking one's idealogy too far away from reality, I think. And even sadder, she was probably so over-intellectulized that she hated and loathed herself for any momentary heterosexual impulse.

How did she expect the species to continue?

May her next incarnation be a little less angry.

[Jennifer]

Joe-
No, but I wouldn't blame you if you made some smarmy comment about robbing them at gunpoint. If Marty et. al. actually raped Dworkin I'd be the first to call for punishment. But all they're doing is putting into (vulgar) words what she claims is the truth, anyway. Kind of like when this whacko-religious person told me how non-procreative sex is evil, and I said, "So in other words, you're saying that the area between your legs is for urination, defecation and procreation ONLY?" That's what their attitde boils down to; don't blame ME if it sounds rude. Smae thing with Marty and Dworkin.

[joe]

Jennifer, compar and contrast:

"So in other words, you're saying that the area between your legs is for urination, defecation and procreation ONLY?"

"Have fun toasting in Hell, you cunt-faced ugly-ass bizznitch. I sincerely hope you fucking suffered until your dying breath, and the simple thought of this fills me happiness and confidence in the basic goodness of the Universe."

"Dworkin is so fucking nasty, NO MAN WOULD FUCK HER IN A MILLION YEARS."

'My only regret is that I cannot masturbate all over the wrinkled/twisted face of her rotting corpse before dancing upon her freshly dug grave and singing "Joy to the World."'

I think you do yourself discredit by stating that your snappy comeback is of a piece with this garbage.

[smacky]

"Have fun toasting in Hell, you cunt-faced ugly-ass bizznitch. I sincerely hope you fucking suffered until your dying breath, and the simple thought of this fills me happiness and confidence in the basic goodness of the Universe."

"Dworkin is so fucking nasty, NO MAN WOULD FUCK HER IN A MILLION YEARS."

'My only regret is that I cannot masturbate all over the wrinkled/twisted face of her rotting corpse before dancing upon her freshly dug grave and singing "Joy to the World."'

...not to mention, some of those more severe comments aren't exactly an enlightened response to someone who sounded to me like she was mentally ill....

[Jennifer]

Joe-
But according to Dworkin herself, ALL MEN are like that. AT least the heteros. Your argument seems to boil down to "Why don't these guys tolerate Dworkin's intolerance of them?" If I were a man, and Dworkin assumed all this crud about me just because I had a Y chromosome, I could easily see myself making a lot of vile sexist comments to her that I'd never DREAM of making to an ordinary woman.

[Serafina]

Susie Bright has an interesting eulogy of Dworkin, "the great pornographer," on her

[Curious]

Haven't cultural anthropologists thoerized in recent years that the caveman/cavewoman were in a very symbiotic relationship, where she provided the pleasure while he provided the food/protection for her and their young, and then she provided him with positive feedback so that he would not leave during the late pregnancy/early post-partum phase where the woman is most vulnerable? This symbiosis then led to formalized "marriage". I know this is really simplified, but I think it's the general idea.

If there are Dworkian fans lurking about, do you know her views on such theories?

[joe]

lurker, to the extent that I have an opinion (at what stage of development does "opinionhood" arise?), it is that Dworkin took a grain of truth - that gender inequality in society introduces power relations, or even an element of coerction, into interpersonal relationships - and took it WAAAAYYYYYY to far.

[smacky]

OT:

Did you know that MSN uses the same font for their articles that H&R bloggers use for their posts? This disturbs me.

[thoreau]

I'm shocked, shocked! that commentary about Dworking has gone beyond the pale.

I'm not excusing anything, but I'm not terribly surprised either. This is the inevitable (maybe unexusable, but still inevitable) consequence of batshit commentary like Dworkin's.

[thoreau]

Or, to use slightly more high-falutin' language, when the quality of discourse is degraded by people like Dworkin, don't expect it to rebound when she passes away.

[Jennifer]

Curious-
I never knew a person to take Dworkin seriously, but I always wished I did, so I could ask them "At what point in human evolution did things get set so that the only way to keep the species going is through rape? Is this true of all the higher primates, or just us?"

I'd also like her explanation of heterosexual dominatrices (which I'm guessing is the plural of dominatrix.)

[Don]

As to the rape fantasies. . .

Fantasies? Sounds more like a very vile nightmare.

[joe]

'Your argument seems to boil down to "Why don't these guys tolerate Dworkin's intolerance of them?"'

Er, no, my argument boils down to "why do these guys express their displeasure in such disgusting, violent, psychotic, Freudian language?"

I disagree with most of Dworkin's political beliefs too, but I don't feel a pressing need to write about masterbating on her corpse. Funny that.

[Jennifer]

Joe-
She didn't just take her ideas "too far;" she took them so far that the cure she'd prescribe was actually worse than the disease.

[Jennifer]

If Andrea Dworkin were Martin Luther King, Jr, she wouldn't have fought for racial equality; she would have tried to kill every white person on the planet.

[Serafina]

"why do these guys express their displeasure in such disgusting, violent, psychotic, Freudian language?"

Because she hurt their little feelings with what she said. Otherwise, why would they care in such personal terms?

[smacky]

Serafina,

That, and also because they are probably the male equivalent of her. They'd probably say the same thing to a more mild-mannered feminist, too.

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
Well, why shouldn't they be offended? According to Dworkin, they're all a bunch of woman-hating scumbag rapists, and any girlfriend they ever had was a stupid bimbo too brainwashed to understand that Sex With Men Is Bad.

[Steve]

smacky, joe, serafina,

Maybe it's because those are the insults that would be most likely to offend/horrify Dworkin and her fellow travelers, if she had any.

To me, Dworkin's "ideas" are pure evil. But then, I like pornography, heterosexual sex, and free speech. She's 0-for-3.

[Serafina]

Oh, I don't think those insults would horrify Dworkin at all. They're trite and uninspired, exactly what she'd expect. As Bright points out, Dworkin trafficked in the sex trade as much as any pornographer. And not just in her prostitute past but in her academic work.

[smacky]

Serafina,

She was a prostitute? Is that true? I could totally understand why she'd hate men then....

[Jennifer]

Steve and Stevo-
Please help me to conduct a little experiment.

Just a few weeks ago I was reading a piece by some misogynistic pig who made a lot of REALLY crass remarks about women, and how we were all vile stupid gold-digging etc. I said in response to this, "I hope his [body part] turns black and falls off, so then I can shove it up his [other body part located close to the first one]."

So tell me, Steve/o--as men, do you understand that that vile comment of mine was directed to ONE MAN in particular, or do you assume that I wish such a destiny on all men, including yourselves and my One True Love? If you are capable of understanding that insulting ONE MAN does not equate to insulting the male of the species, why can't others on this forum understand that wishing ill to one woman (Dworkin) doesn't make a person a misogynist?

[Happy Jack]

Lots of comments by troglodytes today.

Well, someone has to praise Andrea on this sad day.

All I can say is, nobody pulled off that come-hither look in a pair of overalls quite like her.

[Mack Simmons]

All of this is really a disagreement between the two schools of eulogizing the dead. Joe comes from the American school, in which the dead are either honored or at the very least, just mentioned and left alone. Criticism of the deceased is eventually allowed under this line of thinking, but only after a period of letting the dead stay that way.

Jennifer, Mike2039 and the rest come from the British newspaper school of eulogizing the dead, which shows far less reverence towards the deceased. Calling them on the carpet, satirizing them and worse is typical of the style. It's not exactly kind to the deceased, but that's the point.

The remarks such as wanting to "masturbate" on her corpse is a tad distasteful. Considering Dworkin's legacy -- she was a rather hateful bitch who damaged both respectable feminism and liberty of self-expression -- it may not be inappropriate. But neither is Joe's desire to let her lie. She may have been a bitch, but she was also a human being.

[Mark Borok]

>>I'd also like her explanation of heterosexual >>dominatrices (which I'm guessing is the plural >>of dominatrix.)

I don't know about Dworkin, but the general anti-sex feminist repsonse is that even in those relationships the man is in the dominant role because he is getting what he wants (being dominated) from the woman. Especially if he paid for it.

I would have liked to ask Dworkin if it's still rape when my wife wants to have sex and I don't, and I do it anyways just to oblige her. Does that mean I'm guilty of letting her force me to rape her?

[Jennifer]

Mark-
You must have brainwashed your wife into thinking she wanted you. For shame.

When Kim Jong Il finally drops dead, I can't wait to see the members of the Nownow tribe come up to bat. "Now now, don't speak ill of the dead." "Now now, the man was obviously mentally ill." "Now now, he's still a human being."

[a womyn]

Does that mean I'm guilty of letting her force me to rape her?

We don't need or appreciate your sarcasm here, oppressor!

[Mack Simmons]

Or to paraphrase a question posed by comedienne Sarah Silverman, is it rape if the fetus makes the first move?

[Serafina]

Yes, she was smacky. She also successfully got a NYC women's detention center shut down after she was arrested at a war protest and subjected to a body cavity search there. Dworkin was a fascinating character, or caricature. She was one of the foremost scholars on the Marquis de Sade, all of the people closest to her were men, and she came down much harder on women she perceived to be traitors to the cause than she ever did on men. Hell, she even called for Susie Bright's "assasination." I think she was mentally unbalanced, but she was also one of the catalysts that led to sex and pornography becoming legitimate areas of cultural studies in academia.

[David T]

Both she and Catherine MacKinnon denied that either of them had said that all (heterosexual) sex was rape. At the very least, though, Dworkin said some things that come to the very edge of claiming that. The best short discussion I have seen is at
http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=[e-mail]

[Mack Simmons]

And I mean, a male baby.

[Stevo Darkly]

Jennifer: So tell me, Steve/o--as men, do you understand that that vile comment of mine was directed to ONE MAN in particular, or do you assume that I wish such a destiny on all men, including yourselves and my One True Love? If you are capable of understanding that insulting ONE MAN does not equate to insulting the male of the species, why can't others on this forum understand that wishing ill to one woman (Dworkin) doesn't make a person a misogynist?

I would understand that your anger was directed at the one man and not all men. Intellectually I would understand it, anyway.

However, if I were 100% honest, it also occurs to me that hearing such strong anger expressed in such strongly sexual terms might make me a little uncomfortable, and I might have a tendency to keep my legs crossed in your presence for a while.

That's not a very logical response, though -- more of an emotional wince. so I think now I understand how some of the anti-Dworkin vitriol by some of the male posters here might make some women uncomfortable.

And dammit, now you've raised my consciousness, even though that wasn't your aim. I guess I'm still in the process of trying to escape the "Alan Alda feminist" I thought I was as an adolescent. Pah.

Tangent: You know, rad-fems like Dworkins made it a little tougher to be a male growing up in the 1970s and early 1980s. If you actually made any kind of attempt to be the kind of man certain feminists said you should be, you sure could eff yourself up. I think Dworkins damaged a number of men, and some women as well, by making them uncomfortable about their sexuality.

But I can't work up a good hate toward her at this point. I'm too lazy.

[mike2039]

I don't believe that because somebody dies, that somehow lessens the good or evil they did in life. If someone was good in life, highlight that: if someone was evil, they deserve to be vilified. This is an extreme example, but because Hitler is dead, does this mean we can?t talk about his role in the holocaust?

[Jennifer]

Stevo-
Thanks for the honest response. Of course, psychologists would say that all humans have a tendency to mix sex and violence; every language has its equivalent of "go fuck yourself." So I don't find the earlier anti-Dworkin comments to be particularly shocking.

But I can't stand the fact that Dworkin did far more damage than good to The Cause. By turning herself into a caricature, she made it easy for the unknowledgeable or lazy to make a caricature of the entire feminist movement. I wonder if the word "feminazi" would have become so popular if women like Dworkin and MacKinnon weren't around to make a lot of folks say there's a grain of truth to the statement? I wish Dworkin had realized that you can stick up for women without hating men.

[Steve]

Jennifer,

I didn't have Stevo's reaction. I think your comment was pretty funny. But I'm very, very hard to offend.

[Samgrove]

I suspect Dworkin hated men because of high school, or rather, her experience of hish school.

[smacky]

Stevo,

"Alan Alda feminist" : define. (As an aside, if it has anything to do with looking like Alan Alda, then it's a-ok in my book.)

Jennifer,

To answer your question, "Well, why shouldn't they be offended? I guess I would answer "what Stevo said", in that I question someone who gets so worked up about the obviously ignorant position of someone such as a misogynist/misandrist. I guess if I were in your situation and read a misogynist hate-spewing column as you did, my response is usually no more than a snicker and a snort, and then I wouldn't even bother reading the rest of his tripe. If I were a man, I'd behave the same way when reading the work of a misandrist.

And Jennifer, in reference to your last post, if most people actually knew anything about the usage of language, they would know that Dworkin was categorically comparable to a female misogynist, a.k.a. a misandrist. She could've been much more easily dismissed and forgotten, had anyone realized this, instead of warping the term "feminist" into "Feminazi". But perhaps it was no accident that the term "misandrist" was never or infrequently applied to her; I mean, if her and her colleagues were misappropriated some seriously vile quotes, who's to say that some media spinmeister didn't encourage the proliferation of the term "Feminazi" in lieu of the more apt "misandrist", therefore bringing about a public confusion of true feminism with man-hating?

http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/misandry

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=misandrist+%22Andrea+Dworkin%22

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=feminazi+%22Andrea+Dworkin%22

(sigh) I feel like I was just possessed by gaius marius for a second there. What a convoluted thought. But do you get my point? Anyway, the conspiracy is pure speculation; maybe "feminazi" just sounds cooler to say, or something. But "misandrist" does Google at about 2/3 the rate of "feminazi". Think about it. 🙂

[Don]

...not to mention, some of those more severe comments aren't exactly an enlightened response to someone who sounded to me like she was mentally ill....

Given her relative level of influence, what would it matter that she "sounds" mentally ill?

[Stevo Darkly]

"Alan Alda feminist" : define. (As an aside, if it has anything to do with looking like Alan Alda, then it's a-ok in my book.)

Alas, brushing a lock of dark hair down onto my forehead, pinching the end of my nose flat, and snapping, "Sorry, General, but someone just 'insulted' this kid's body!" is as close as I get to resembling Alan Alda in the flesh.

Basically it must means being male and being sympathetic to feminists, and being all sensitive and junk, and I think I mostly picked it up by watching Alan Alda on M*A*S*H.

[Don]

Personally, I like the term "Feminazi". I think it applies not just to man/sex hating feminists, but the lefty free market hating kinds as well.

My issue with radical feminists is their leftist anti-capitalist postion. Their hatred of men/sex is more amusing than anything else.

[Don]

Basically it must means being male and being sympathetic to feminists, and being all sensitive and junk, and I think I mostly picked it up by watching Alan Alda on M*A*S*H.

How does that mesh with being "metrosexual"?

[smacky]

Personally, I think that "feminazi" is insulting to both women and Nazis. I mean, Jews.

Er, let me try this again. What I really mean to say is this:

I think that "feminazi" undermines women, feminists, and those that suffered at the hands of the Nazis, all in one lump word. And that's why I dislike it.

[Serafina]

Hawkeye Pierce as "sensitive male"? I think I watched a different M*A*S*H*.

[Serafina]

Or maybe I stopped watching when it started getting aggressively sappy. I always think of Alda in the show as a funny, skirt-chasing drunk.

[smacky]

Alan Alda is a dreamboat:

http://fan.memories-fade.net/alda/

[David T]

David Frum had some kind words for Ms. Dworkin:

"And in one respect at least, she shared a deep and true perception with the political and cultural right: She understood that the sexual revolution had inflicted serious harm on the interests of women and children--and (ultimately) of men as well. She understood that all-pervasive pornography is not a harmless amusement, but a powerful teaching device that changed the way men thought about women. She rejected the idea that sex is just another commodity to be exchanged in a marketplace, that strippers and prostitutes should be thought of as just another form of service worker: She recognized and dared to name the reality of brutality and exploitation where many liberals insist on perceiving personal liberation."
http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/diary041205.asp#060470

This endorsement should be a wakeup call to those libertarians who still think of conservative Republicans as their allies (against among others, "those crazy left-wing feminists"). If ever there were a case against the libertarian/conservative "marriage" this is it. Unless of course you regard sexual freedom as an unimportant component of freedom.

[Don]

Hawkeye Pierce as "sensitive male"? I think I watched a different M*A*S*H*.

I think it is more about Alan Alda and less about Hawkeye.

[Stevo Darkly]

Yeah, I think Don's right, it's mostly the Alan Alda bleeding through into the character. Although Hawkeye was also a bit of a crusader and bewailer, which I tend to associate with the Left and being a sensitive dude.

As for meshing with "metrosexual," I think not at all. On M*A*S*H he always looked pretty scruffy.

[Don]

This endorsement should be a wakeup call to those libertarians who still think of conservative Republicans as their allies (against among others, "those crazy left-wing feminists"). If ever there were a case against the libertarian/conservative "marriage" this is it. Unless of course you regard sexual freedom as an unimportant component of freedom.

Frankly, I don't see sexual freedom as something that's under attack. I'm a lot more concerned about gun rights, free markets, that sort of thing. My main line of departure from the Repubs is the drug war, but the Dems are hardly any better.

[Stevo Darkly]

Also, if you go to freerepublic.com and search for a thread with the word "pornography" in the title, you'll find a pretty wide range of views represented among the conservative Republicans there. They're not all afraid of sexual freedom by any means.

I'm a bit wary of this David Frum guy, though.

[joe]

"Frankly, I don't see sexual freedom as something that's under attack."

Perhaps, Don, you don't see it because YOUR sexual freedom isn't under immediate attack.

[Stevo Darkly]

Although Hawkeye was also a bit of a crusader and bewailer, which I tend to associate with the Left and being a sensitive dude.

Maybe I should nuancify that a bit. It was also the kind of things that Hawkeye bewailed and crusaded about, like the stupidity of war, the stupidity of the military, and occasionally the dehumanizing treatment of women in Korea. (Although by today's standards Hawkeye was a bit of a crude womanizer himself.)

If you want to identify an uptight Right-wing crusader type on that show, always looking to "fix" the things that made life bearable and generally making sure people had no fun (while being a moral hypocrite as well), that would be Frank Burns, of course.

[Larry Edelstein]

That's interesting, about Dworkin's scholarship, and her close male friends. I did read that she had married a gay man in '98, and that they were life-partners, perversely analogous to Jay and Silent Bob, perhaps sans some of the humor, although I wouldn't be surprised if they hit the bong now and then.

I sure hated that kind of blatantly man-hating stuff that seemed to be all about back in the late 80s and early 90s. It was like the Soviet Union - a set of really bad ideas that a large group of people bought into at one level or another (I'm thinking mostly of women here, but a fair amount of men) and then found out that they'd basically sold themselves down the river.

As Vaclav Havel pointed out so well, those who bought into these ideas were both oppressor and oppressed.

Like the first guy said, RIP.

(And please do not wake up.)

[Stevo Darkly]

Perhaps ... you don't see it because YOUR sexual freedom isn't under immediate attack.

That's a valid point. For example, I said you could find pro-pornography voices even at freerepublic.com, but it's still pro straight

pornography.

[Serafina]

The Freepers probably don't mind a little girl-on-girl action, either. As long as they're cute and they still like men.

[Don]

Perhaps, Don, you don't see it because YOUR sexual freedom isn't under immediate attack.

OK, so who's sexual freedom is under attack?

Gays want to expand their freedom to include marriage. Not allowing them to expand their rights isn't the same as attacking their sexual freedom. And there's not a chance that we are going to begin reinstating anti-sodomy laws, etc.

[Jennifer]

Smacky,
As a misanthrope myself, I'm familiar with the word misandrist. But I don't think it perfectly applies here; as mentioned above, she reserved especial hatred for women who didn't conform to her notions of what womanhood should be. I think the best way to describe the late unlamented Ms. Dworkin would be "batshit insane."

[joe]

"And there's not a chance that we are going to begin reinstating anti-sodomy laws, etc."

This is true, such things are very unlikely. However, this is only so because the Democratic Party still gets to vote.

If Congress only consisted of its current Republican members, how do you think the laws would look? The topic, remember, is about a gay man working for Republicans.

[Don]

This is true, such things are very unlikely. However, this is only so because the Democratic Party still gets to vote.

No, this is because most people don't support such measures. Consequently, they are not going to be pushed by either party, unless popular opinion changes.

[smacky]

Jennifer,

"Batshit insane" is also good. Definately more colorful descriptively. (BTW, I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about people that don't know language).

[Anvilwyrm]

The topic, remember, is about a gay man working for Republicans.

Wrong thread Joe.

🙂

[smacky]

The topic, remember, is about a gay man working for Republicans.

So that's why people thought she was such an unattractive woman, after all.

How did I not catch that the first time through? 🙂

[Don]

(BTW, I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about people that don't know language).

Modern-Greek phrases don't exactly suggest a command of the English language.

WWGOS? (That is, what would George Orwell say?)

[Shem]

This got me thinking and so I did a random poll of the people at my college. I asked about 50 people at random if they knew who Andrea Dworkin was. All in all, around 18 had heard the name, and only 6 of those could tell me in any real way what her beliefs were. And this is at the not-quite-farthest left college in the middle of Blue-Green Washington State. I myself only heard of her a few years ago, and that was because I made the attempt to learn. I don't particularly like or agree with her beliefs, but in the end I think the fact that in 10 years she will more than likely be little more than a footnote, and in 50 years all but forgotten is both the best testament to her beliefs and the most fitting punishment for the sort of ideas that she espoused. Definitely better than writing creepy masturbation fantasies on an online forum. And I don't care if it's completely understandable given her politics, it's still damn creepy.

[David T]

"And there's not a chance that we are going to begin reinstating anti-sodomy laws, etc."

Don't be so sure. A change of two votes in the Supreme Court could overrule the *Lawrence* case. In that event, I could easily see some states reinstating their anti-sodomy laws. In fact, they may not even *have* to do so. In the US (unlike some European nations) a Supreme Court decision invalidating a law does not take that law off the books. It only renders the law unenforceable. Should the Court change its mind, the statute can be enforced again. (This is why some states have been careful not to repeal their old anti-abortion laws, by the way; should *Roe v. Wade* ever be overruled, they will not have to go through the trouble of passing new laws to outlaw abortion; the old ones will simply resume their effect. I am only using this as an example, not arguing the merits of *Roe* or of legalized abortion.)

[Don]

A change of two votes in the Supreme Court could overrule . . .

Such laws wouldn't be enforced, and would probably be taken off the books if efforts were taken to enforce them. Most people are fine with gays doing their thing in the privacy of their bedroom. Sure, maybe Hicksvill, VA would ban sodomy, but all the gays have probably moved to Boston or DC anyway, and the only people who might get arrested are bubba & his toothless cousin.

[Serafina]

Oh, please. Gay expressions of sexuality are so constrained in this country that people get all up in arms about lesbians even appearing on a children's television show. It's not just the currently unenforceable laws in this country but countless, grinding daily examples of the way gay people are marginalized to the point that their very existence is seen as an issue of morals.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Re: Hawkeye. In the early years of the show, and to an even greater extent in the movie, he was a rakish ladies' man and misogynist. (Dig the laffriot scene in the movie where they pull down the wall of the tent where Sally Kellerman's taking a shower so everybody can get a hilarious eyeful.) Alda (who I should note has soared with the angels in his post-M*A*S*H movie work) is generally considered responsible for pulling a Kirk Cameron and smothering the show under the weight of his own ideological demands. There are numerous very special episodes where Hawkeye learns to stop being such a male chauvinist pig and respect the beauty of sisterhood. His preachiness on other matters is legendary. Reason editor Nick Gillespie described it all years ago:

Take M*A*S*H, for
instance, generally considered
one of the best series ever to
grace the small screen. Watching
M*A*S*H reruns in sequence is
like watching a friend die a
slow and painful death.

The malignant tumor was Alan
Alda, who metastasized from
costar to producer/director/
writer/creative consultant/key
grip and who drove out anyone
who might compete for laughs and
replaced them with bums. Soon
enough, the show went from a
cleverly plotted, funny
first/serious later, sitcom that
had more in common with Hogan's
Heroes than Shoah to a
pun-ridden morality tale that
drove home the shockingly
controversial point that war is
hell. Worse still, Army brass
went from being bumbling,
self-serving (but funny) fools
to being evil cretins with names
like Colonel Bloodworth (get
it?). The later episodes are so
ham-handed and rotten, in fact,
that it makes you hate the early
shows for being the petri dish
from which this virus grew.

The real hoot of M*A*S*H was the surreal plot twist where Loretta "Hot Lips" Swit was supposed to be an incredible knockout. I don't want to join in the ungentlemanly comments about women's looks, but really, did Major Houlihan ever do it for anybody?

[Marco Millions]

I'm shocked, shocked! that commentary about Dworking has gone beyond the pale.

I hereby submit that from now on, consensual heterosexual sex be referred to as "Dworking".

[Don]

Oh, please. Gay expressions of sexuality are so constrained in this country that people get all up in arms about lesbians even appearing on a children's television show.

My impression of TV is that it's the medium devoted to depicting gay people in a positive (or at least non-traditional) light; everything from nakid fags winning $$$$ on Survivor to Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Strait Guy, just to name several high nails.

It's not just the currently unenforceable laws in this country but countless, grinding daily examples of the way gay people are marginalized to the point that their very existence is seen as an issue of morals.

I don't buy that at all. The vast majority in this country seem to think that gays should be free to do as they wish in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

Is their lifestyle considered equal to that of hetro couples in "fly over country"? Probably not, and I don't really care.

When did anyone get the idea that they were imposed upon if their lifestyle is not respected by most of society?

[Don]

The real hoot of M*A*S*H was the surreal plot twist where Loretta "Hot Lips" Swit was supposed to be an incredible knockout. I don't want to join in the ungentlemanly comments about women's looks, but really, did Major Houlihan ever do it for anybody?

She may have been lacking in looks, but perhaps she made up for that in performance & enthusiasm.

Interesting commentary on an overrated TV show, Tim.

[Stevo Darkly]

I'm not sure why, but Maj. "Hot Lips" Houlihan never really did it for me, either. For me, this was one of the shows I watched in the 1970s that was pretty much devoid of eye-candy.

At that time, I was still more or less a middle-of-the-roader liberal (to the extent I was anything -- I was a kid/teenager during the show's original run), and Hawkeye didn't really start to grate on me until after a few years of re-runs. I actually liked the new characters they introduced. Charles Emerson Winchester was a bit more complex than the buffoonish Frank Burns (although I missed Frank after his departure, too).

And I really liked the character of Col. Potter -- he added some balance, because for a wonder he portrayed a career military man who was competent, humane, honorable and not an ass.

(PS: I never actually saw the movie version.)

[Stevo Darkly]

Don and Serafina --

Regarding tolerance of gays, I think the point of tension lies somewhere between "what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms" and public displays of affection and couplehood. I think Don's right that most people really don't care what people do in their own bedrooms. At the same time, as Serafina kind of alludes to, a lot of people freak at the prospect of having to come up with the right answer when their kid asks, "Why are those two men kissing, Daddy?"

I think this is because it brings up potential pressure to discuss complicated issues of sexuality that most people would rather not be forced to discuss with their kids at a young age. They're afraid the kid'll get confused about usual gender roles or something.

[kevrob]

The TV "Hot Lips" was an extremely plausible paramour for the small-screen Frank Burns, even if she didn't turn over many Reasonoid motors. However, the film cast Sally Kellerman in that role, and she was fiy-yi-yi-yi-ine!

M*A*S*H*, the film, is one of the greatest black comedies, ever.

Now, as for Ms. Dworkin. Calling her c*nt-faced is an insult to beautiful vaginas everywhere.

Kevin

[MJ]

On Dworkin's apparent ideas about male-female relationships:

To turn around Twain - "Where would women be without men? They'd be scarce, almighty scarce!"

[Matt]

I swear, I've never been so glad to believe in hell.

[The Real Bill]

This is an excellent thread. It makes my insomnia so much more bearable.

Jennifer,

H&R reduces my misanthropy. Does it do so for you?

[Jennifer]

The Real Bill-
If I thought H&R would reduce MY misanthropy, I'd stay as far the hell away as possible. Sure, once in awhile, after reading a few threads, I'll mellow out and think "Maybe humanity ISN'T the hopelessly superstitious cesspool I've made it out to be," and then {name deleted} will come on to rant about them evil gay people or some such thing, and I'll realize I was right all along.

[Jennifer]

Hmm. I couldn't make that last post because of "questionable content," so I edited it slightly; where it now says "name deleted" it originally had the name of a poster most often associated with the song "Achy Breaky Heart."

Excellent! More fuel for my misanthropy! Let's see if this post goes through.

[dhex]

"My impression of TV is that it's the medium devoted to depicting gay people in a positive (or at least non-traditional) light; everything from nakid fags winning $$$$ on Survivor to Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Strait Guy, just to name several high nails."

nakid is supposed to be spelled nekkid. please.

one thing i will always respect act-up for is the whole kiss in thing, because it centers onto a fundamental fact that - for whatever reasons you want to assign - gay men in particular make people uncomfortable. it cannot all be aesthetics - otherwise the ugly and ungainly and overweight would be holding kiss-ins to similar effect.

serafina's probably right - it comes down to not wanting their kid to be confused about their proper course in life. which makes one wonder just how strong that course is if it can be destroyed so effectively by tv and making out.

[Ken Shultz]

"I don't want to join in the ungentlemanly comments about women's looks, but really, did Major Houlihan ever do it for anybody?"

I didn't get the impression that "Hot Lips" was supposed to be a knockout. It seemed to me that she was supposed to be a pretentious prude in public but a slag nonetheless.

[Sam Grove]

You know what dickheads some guys can be in high school. And AD was aesthetically in the red.
High school must create a lot of internal conflict in gays.

[Don]

one thing i will always respect act-up for is the whole kiss in thing, because it centers onto a fundamental fact that - for whatever reasons you want to assign - gay men in particular make people uncomfortable. it cannot all be aesthetics - otherwise the ugly and ungainly and overweight would be holding kiss-ins to similar effect.

Lesbian acts have generally been a lessor crime than male homosexual acts. And, among the ancient Greeks (and Romans) I believe that male homosexuality was accepted between an adult male and young man--with the adult being the dominant party. I think that even the Greeks, it was a crime (or unacceptable at least) for a man to be sexually submissive to a younger man.

In short, I think the "problem" with male homosexuality is that a male is being sexually submissive.

I've known strait women who were fine with girl-on-girl porn, but they have all been revolted by male gay porn, or at least they said they thought they would be.

[smacky]

Modern-Greek phrases don't exactly suggest a command of the English language.

No, you say? More than 70 percent of English (and 95 percent of upper vocabulary) comes from Latin and Greek roots. I would definately say that suggests a command of the language, unless you speak in mostly articles, adverbs, and grunts.

[Serafina]

Oddly enough, het women, mostly single as I recall, are a significant audience for gay male porn as well as significant producers, particularly of fan fic.

As to your question, Don, about why gays, lesbians, and bisexuals feel that their sexual freedom remains under attack, it's because it is. Nobody really cares what anyone does in the privacy of their own bedroom. But for gays and lesbians, others make sure that their sexuality spills over into areas of life where its normally invisible: child custody, etc. Because children see a gay couple doesn't mean that parents have to go into any complicated explanation of sexuality, but somehow that's immediately where their minds go.

[Don]

Oddly enough, het women, mostly single as I recall, are a significant audience for gay male porn . . .

I'm inclined to doubt that. I don't know any stats on the matter, but it sounds highly unlikely. It doesn't seem that single females consume much porn of any sort. And the type of porn aimed at women (including lesbians) is tame and, well, boring.

But for gays and lesbians, others make sure that their sexuality spills over into areas of life where its normally invisible: child custody, etc. Because children see a gay couple doesn't mean that parents have to go into any complicated explanation of sexuality, but somehow that's immediately where their minds go.

That doesn't add up to having their sexuality under attack. It does suggest that some people will always find some reason to complain about how unfair society is.

[Stevo Darkly]

I've known a couple of young women who were absolutely fascinated by gay males. And one wrote a lot of male-male fanfic (also known as "slash" -- as in, "this is a Kirk/Spock story" or "a Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan story"). She even went to writers' conventions organized around this topic. There is very definitely a significant genre of female-written slash fanfic on the WWW.

Also: The female-written slash tends to be more idealized and different in tone, I'm told, than stuff guys of any orientation would tend to write -- even when it gets a bit rough, it's more about glances and tender caresses than hard-ramming rock-hard you-know-whats. As I was told, "The words of man-porn are not good."

As to how widespread an interst in gay males is among women in general, I don't know. I'm guessing it's a minority interest. The two women I knew who exhibited this are more sexually adventurous than the average person, I think.

[Don]

I've known a few women who have an interest in gay males--that is, they like a lot of gay male traits. But I have yet to meet one who appreciates gay porn.

[Erinn]

Andrea Dworkin was an amazing woman challenging us to think ouside the patriarchal box. My boyfriend and I are both big fans, miss her very much & pray for her.

[SCUMmanifested]

Andrea's work has helped me a tremendous amount to be able to understtand and gain a more holistic perspective on the state of patriarchy in our society and while I did not agree with everything she said, I think that it all needed to be said. I love her for her hard work and commitment to defending and gaining women's rights. I love her for that. And I miss her terribly; though I never knew her.

[Demonista]

Have any of you ever sat down and actually READ a book of hers? Or would trying to come up with a cognent analysis of her ACTUAL beliefs in context hurt your empty little heads?

"Dworkin's evil. With a nutcase like her, you don't even need to read anything she's written. Just go find some random quotes. Even if she never wrote or said some of them, oh well. She's a feminazi!"

[ladiesinaction]

There are so many angry men writing here!

in my experience angry men are offen scared men,
so, what are you affraid of?

are you scared of andreas writing?
and to you who said she didnt look good-

she refused to use makeup or fashion or hairdressers or anything woman uses to look good for men.

so maybe there are millions of woman who actually looks like her?

scared now ?

and, please do some more research before you write angry messages about this woman. thank you.

ladies in action
europe

[kate]

"
I've known a few women who have an interest in gay males--that is, they like a lot of gay male traits. But I have yet to meet one who appreciates gay porn.
"

Check your local junior high. That's where the main female fans of male-male sex live--sex without women is "safe" and doesn't have any icky girls to feel threatened by in it, so they like it better.

it's also much like men fetishizing lesbians, and no less silly.

As for Dworkin...I disagree with her on a lot of points, and I think her own past as a prostitute warped her perceptions slightly, but she did believe in women's rights and for that I respect her.

[Emmie]

The only response this chatter deserves is to say that Dworkin can rest in peace as you have all proven her right here on this page.

And Joe, I hope we cross paths one day.

[karina]

Damn, she croaked? Too bad. I wanted to see Andrea Dworkin beaten to a bloody pulp with a construction boot shoved in her mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig. The pig which she was.