Metro vs. Retro

One of the more interesting ad campaigns in recent memory is currently unfolding in national newspapers. Under the rubric of Metro vs. Retro, the ads pose, say, The Dixie Chicks vs. Hank Williams III, Michael Moore vs. Mel Gibson, Joycelyn Elders vs. Laura Schlessinger, etc.

In today's Washingon Post, among the facts listed in an ad were that 60 percent of Retros (i.e., religious Americans in less-urbanized areas) believed the Bible was the literal word of God. Amazingly (to me, anyway) was that 44 percent of Metros (religiously less observant, urbanized Americans) felt the same way.

The Metro vs. Retro dichotomy, a variation on the blue state/red state conception, is at the heart of the new book The Great Divide, which can be sampled here. Written by University of Phoenix head John Sperling and several others, it is an explicit attempt to rejuvenate the Democratic Party and give it an electoral majority by focusing on urban and suburban Americans. (Full disclosure: I know Sperling, who I interviewed for a 1997 story on ballot intiatives aimed at changing drug laws, and one of his co-authors, Samuel George, who spearheaded those and other initiative campaigns.)

I've only skimmed the online sample chapter and, unsurprisingly, it's a fiercely partisan book. I don't know that I'll find it convincing in either its analysis or its policy recommendations, but the chapter does include this bit that warms the cockles of my heart:

The authors of this book are dedicated to the Enlightenment principles of rational discourse,the application of logic,and the scientific method.The data and arguments we present fol-
low these principles.As for politics, we are committed to the separation of church and state,the rule of law, and a political culture of civility and tolerance,all of which are necessary for a healthy democracy.

Whole chapter here.

Update: We've been having server problems; otherwise I would have corrected the Hank Williams misfire a couple of hours back. Yes, it's Bocephus, aka Junior, aka "Are You Ready for Some Football," who's Retro, not HWIII, who's a little bit country, a little bit Metro (e.g., "Are You Ready for Some Foosball?"?)

Comments

[joe]

Cash is Retro, but beloved by Metros. You see that a lot - "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?" for example. Setting up Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie to compare poorly with that nice Arkansas family is another.

You seldom see the opposite.

[DaveInBigD]

we are committed to ... a political culture of civility and tolerance

Ah. So tolerance and civil discourse means implying that your opponents are neanderthals and saying 'we want happy kids in class - they want nasty bombs'? Just because they're calling them the relatively tame name of 'retro' rather than calling them rednecks, they're still resorting to namecalling.

Don't get me wrong. I grew up in a tiny southern town and was on the outside for my metro ways (except for my support of gun violence and greed). I'm not saying there aren't rednecks or that we shouldn't call them that. But if we do, don't claim to be all about civil discourse and tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance if you tolerate folks you otherwise wouldn't tolerate.

[DaveInBigD]

we are committed to ... a political culture of civility and tolerance

Ah. So tolerance and civil discourse means implying that your opponents are neanderthals and saying 'we want happy kids in class - they want nasty bombs'? Just because they're calling them the relatively tame name of 'retro' rather than calling them rednecks, they're still resorting to namecalling.

Don't get me wrong. I grew up in a tiny southern town and was on the outside for my metro ways (except for my support of gun violence and greed). I'm not saying there aren't rednecks or that we shouldn't call them that. But if we do, don't claim to be all about civil discourse and tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance if you tolerate folks you otherwise wouldn't tolerate.

[joe]

Tolerance doesn't mean thinking everything people do or say is ok, either. Nor does it mean silencing yourself when faced with that you disagree with.

I tolerate the sort of people labelled as "Retros" on the site. That doesn't mean I'm not going to call them on their bullshit.

[Mo]

joe,
The 44% number doesn't surprise me at all. I know quite a few (actually a lot) of people that believe the Bible literally that are very metro.

[Warren]

dan,
I dunno, seems to me that Bono has already slipped into retro. Once you become a staple on the oldies station, it's official.

Johnny stayed hip to the end. We're still years away from hearing Nine-Inch Nails when someone puts on hold.

[DaveInBigD]

we are committed to ... a political culture of civility and tolerance

Ah. So tolerance and civil discourse means implying that your opponents are neanderthals and saying 'we want happy kids in class - they want nasty bombs'? Just because they're calling them the relatively tame name of 'retro' rather than calling them rednecks, they're still resorting to namecalling.

Don't get me wrong. I grew up in a tiny southern town and was on the outside for my metro ways (except for my support of gun violence and greed). I'm not saying there aren't rednecks or that we shouldn't call them that. But if we do, don't claim to be all about civil discourse and tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance if you tolerate folks you otherwise wouldn't tolerate.

[DaveInBigD]

we are committed to ... a political culture of civility and tolerance

Ah. So tolerance and civil discourse means implying that your opponents are neanderthals and saying 'we want happy kids in class - they want nasty bombs'? Just because they're calling them the relatively tame name of 'retro' rather than calling them rednecks, they're still resorting to namecalling.

Don't get me wrong. I grew up in a tiny southern town and was on the outside for my metro ways (except for my support of gun violence and greed). I'm not saying there aren't rednecks or that we shouldn't call them that. But if we do, don't claim to be all about civil discourse and tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance if you tolerate folks you otherwise wouldn't tolerate.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I've been staring at these Metro vs Retro ads in the Washington Post all week and resisted logging onto the website. The underlying message is pretty obvious: We (the modern liberals) are so enlightened and those bible-thumping conservatives aren't. This seems to perpetuate the whole "we vs. them" duality in our current system, as if there aren't any other viewpoints. Absolute fucking arrogance.

When I look at side-by-side pictures of Newt Gingerich (sp?) and Hillary Rodham, it shouldn't be assumed that I am automatically going to take one side or the other. Why can't I simply hate both of them?

[Shawn Smith]

Larry A,

Those terms you quoted look like a typical End User License Agreement for proprietary software, or the agreements that large financial institutions have with their customers. Sure, sometimes I cringe when I read them, but I want the service they provide, and click through or sign, anyway.

I thought one of the more unintentionally funny quotes in the chapter was, "The Democrats wonder, Why do we lose elections when we are right on all the issues?" Well, Sherlock, maybe you aren't "right on all the issues." Maybe advocating for a policy that involves spending my money on things I don't want has something to do with it, hmmm?

[TWC]

Don't confuse anyone's take on whether or not the Bible is literal with politics or idiocy. I am acquainted with lots of ordinary people from all walks of life who pay little or no attention to things religious but if asked by some pollster will respond that the Bible is literally God's word.

They aren't freaks, they aren't Retros or Metros, and very few of them are of the mindset of the "Sin Killer". Many don't vote and often don't give a shit about politics. Some are conservative, some liberal, some apolitical, and few of them ever set foot inside a church, unless the kid is getting married.

My gripe with this kind of thinking is that people who make these claims, observations, and studies don't seem to know any ordinary people. They've never shared a cold beer in a cheesy bar with a red neck or slept with a chick that kicks the pickup door open to turn on the lights after sex. The insular world they surely must live in has got to be filled with others who share their worldview, because the people they describe don't seem to match anyone in real life.

In many respects this ongoing obsession with the evils of modern religion reminds me of old time John Birchers looking for Commies under the bed. Look under enough beds and you'll find a few things that need shootin?, but they certainly don't have anywhere near the power and control that we all imagine that they do. Otherwise we'd all be living by Rummy's Religious Rules (pick up yer copy at Gene Berkman?s Bookstore today).

[TWC]

Don't confuse anyone's take on whether or not the Bible is literal with politics or idiocy. I am acquainted with lots of ordinary people from all walks of life who pay little or no attention to things religious but if asked by some pollster will respond that the Bible is literally God's word.

They aren't freaks, they aren't Retros or Metros, and very few of them are of the mindset of the "Sin Killer". Many don't vote and often don't give a shit about politics. Some are conservative, some liberal, some apolitical, and few of them ever set foot inside a church, unless the kid is getting married.

My gripe with this kind of thinking is that people who make these claims, observations, and studies don't seem to know any ordinary people. They've never shared a cold beer in a cheesy bar with a red neck or slept with a chick that kicks the pickup door open to turn on the lights after sex. The insular world they surely must live in has got to be filled with others who share their worldview, because the people they describe don't seem to match anyone in real life.

In many respects this ongoing obsession with the evils of modern religion reminds me of old time John Birchers looking for Commies under the bed. Look under enough beds and you'll find a few things that need shootin?, but they certainly don't have anywhere near the power and control that we all imagine that they do. Otherwise we'd all be living by Rummy's Religious Rules (pick up yer copy at Gene Berkman?s Bookstore today).

[Franklin Harris]

I scanned the book's first chapter, and I can state with some authority that everything bad that the authors claim happened to Alabama because voters here rejected a whopping big tax increase is false. They have quoted the scary predictions that were made before the vote as if they were the results of the vote. For example, the state's education budget is currently in surplus, despite the tax hike's not passing. Meanwhile, there has been no flood of nursing home closings, no mass layoffs of state employees (unfortunately) and, in fact, no real restrain in state spending.

[TWC]

Don't confuse anyone's take on whether or not the Bible is literal with politics or idiocy. I am acquainted with lots of ordinary people from all walks of life who pay little or no attention to things religious but if asked by some pollster will respond that the Bible is literally God's word.

They aren't freaks, they aren't Retros or Metros, and very few of them are of the mindset of the "Sin Killer". Many don't vote and often don't give a shit about politics. Some are conservative, some liberal, some apolitical, and few of them ever set foot inside a church, unless the kid is getting married.

My gripe with this kind of thinking is that people who make these claims, observations, and studies don't seem to know any ordinary people. They've never shared a cold beer in a cheesy bar with a red neck or slept with a chick that kicks the pickup door open to turn on the lights after sex. The insular world they surely must live in has got to be filled with others who share their worldview, because the people they describe don't seem to match anyone in real life.

In many respects this ongoing obsession with the evils of modern religion reminds me of old time John Birchers looking for Commies under the bed. Look under enough beds and you'll find a few things that need shootin?, but they certainly don't have anywhere near the power and control that we all imagine that they do. Otherwise we'd all be living by Rummy's Religious Rules (pick up yer copy at Gene Berkman?s Bookstore today).

[Shannon Love]

From the website:

"Retro-America, conservative and rooted in the past, and Metro-America-progressive and focused on future"

These people self-delusion is the most frightening thing. Let look at some items in the contemporary political debate:

Social Security:
Retro: Let's change the system. We need a new system based on delayed consumption instead of redistribution. Most Americans in the 21st century can manage their own retirement savings.

Metro: Let keep the same basic system we've had since the 1930's but spend more on it. What worked in 1935 will surely work in 2035.

Education:
Retro: Let change the system. We should use some kind of voucher system to decentralize education decisions and give more power directly to the individuals.

Metro: Lets keep the same basic system we have had for the last 100 years but spend more money on.

Health Care:
Retro: Let's enhance the free market system. Let's give individuals control over how they spend their government provided medical dollars.

Metro: Let's keep the same kind of programs we have for the poor and elderly but then we need to expand them to cover everybody. We need a system like Canada created in 1950,

And so on. Metro's are Leftist and they haven't had a new idea since 1973. If we use conservative and progress and synonyms for pro-status quo and anti-status quo, then for virtually every major economic issue the Metros are the conservative part of the polity. Only on some social matters do they represent the progressive part and even that has a sixties retread feel to it.

It's really frightening that they think of themselves as so future oriented, innovative and risk taking when in reality that are the polar opposite.

[Ken Layne]

Would this make somebody like Jerry Falwell a retrosexual? If so, what does he have sex with?

Yeah, whether it's Hank III or Hank Jr., neither should be trusted with your daughter, liquor cabinet, guns, wife, or medicine cabinet. If serious Bush-supporting Christians throw Monday Night Football parties like Old Hank -- strippers in cheerleader costumes, giant booze bottles, an implied mountain of cocaine on the coffee table -- I would convert today. (Then again, young George W. himself was known for such football parties. Why must they get so boring by the time they run for president?)

Anyway, the truth is the Dixie Chicks are the kind of crap heard on "country music" radio, not Hank Jr., Hank III, or Johnny Cash. A liberal myth is that country radio plays country music. It doesn't, and it hasn't for 15 years. It plays, as Jack Sparks harshly says, "tampon jingles." Meaning, it's bright, poppy, heavily produced muzak that you hear pretty constantly at Target or Walmart on weekdays, when the target demographic of New Country (suburban moms) is shopping. (On weekends, I've noticed my local Walmart plays "classic country," presumably because men are in the store buying tools, paint, hunting gear, etc.)

[Larry A]

Shawn Smith: [Those terms you quoted look like a typical End User License Agreement for proprietary software, or the agreements that large financial institutions have with their customers. Sure, sometimes I cringe when I read them, but I want the service they provide, and click through or sign, anyway.]

Absolutely. But I don?t expect to run into them clicking on a website where I?m getting nothing more valuable than a laugh, in between grinding my teeth. These folks don?t understand either PR websites or the Internet in general.

[I thought one of the more unintentionally funny quotes in the chapter was, "The Democrats wonder, Why do we lose elections when we are right on all the issues?" Well, Sherlock, maybe you aren't "right on all the issues." Maybe advocating for a policy that involves spending my money on things I don't want has something to do with it, hmmm?]

Again I agree. Unfortunately political reality in the U.S. is somewhat accurately reflected in the book. By dividing the political landscape in two artificial parts, here metros and retros, you end up with (for instance) the party that wants to do away with guns against the party that wants to do away with gays.

Left out of the ?enlightened rational discourse? are all of us who don?t want either legislated against.

[wellfellow]

What a crock of meaningless drivel. I'll file this away with "the jocks, nerds and preppies."

[Larry A]

[The authors of this book are dedicated to the Enlightenment principles of rational discourse, the application of logic, and the scientific method. The data and arguments we present follow these principles. As for politics, we are committed to the separation of church and state, the rule of law, and a political culture of civility and tolerance, all of which are necessary for a healthy democracy.]

Hmmm.

http://m-w.com:
de?moc?ra?cy
Pronunciation: di-'m?-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dEmokratia, from dEmos + -kratia -cracy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

Rational discourse, the application of logic, and the scientific method? It seems the authors missed the part about, uh, making decisions by people voting for what they want.

[linguist]

Shannon Love: you said it all!

The "left" has completely stolen the word "liberal" and all the related words that go along with it, which is truly a shame.

[Damon W. Root]

Don't forget Hank III's part-time gig, bass player for "retro" thrashers Superjoint Ritual.

[DaveInBigD]

Ackk. Sorry about the excessive multipostings above.

Joe - A key element of tolerance, in my opinion, is non-vilification of the enemy. You vilify his actions if need be, but you don't vilify him.

Tolerant - "The policies of the Christian Right are based on falacies and will lead to disaster, wherease we have the right answers and are compassionate"

Intolerant (but possibly true) - "The NeanderPals (ooh, I like that term) don't want you to have an education, and we'll make every school an Ivy League School"

If you want civility and tolerance, cool. You don't have to say "I agree with everything you say" to do it. Stand up for what you believe. But calling 'them' names, even clever names, ain't civil discourse.

If you want to take the gloves off and tell it like it is, that's ok too. But that sign you just passed said "Now leaving Toleranceville (population 0), come back soon!"

[Ray D.]

After reading some of the text on their web site, I am at a loss for words.

Have these people ever worked a real job?

If you really want to understand America, get a job at a retail establishment. For one thing, you learn a little humility as you wait on a customer. For another, you learn something about people.

[Gary Gunnels]

So long as were delving into a bunch of fallacious and silly categorizations that bear no relationship to reality - try this on for size:

Metros support gay marraige; which is of course new.

Metros also want to legalize pot, etc.

Metros have no problem with burning an American flag or marrying someone of another "race."*

*Note that I consider the concept of "race" to be an entirely cultural construct which has no basis in biology.

[Mackey]

Gary, status quo Democrats want to decriminalize pot? You coulda fooled me.

[Gary Gunnels]

Mackey,

Well, I don't see why a Metro should neccessarily be a Democrat; indeed, I think of myself as fairly "Metro," yet I'm not a Democrat (or a Republican) - though at one time I was a Democrat (many eons ago when I thought Neil Goldschmidt was hot - in other words, the late 80s and early 90s). Furthermore, I've run into dozens of "legalize it, don't criminalize it" Democrats over the years - whether they were "status quo" Democrats I can't say.

I think this illustrates my original point however; that these are silly and fallacious categorizations that bear no resemblence to reality.

[s.m. koppelman]

(Hank III is an ex-punk? Has he disbanded Assjack and cut off his dreads in the last month or two?)

[KentInDC]

Franklin Harris,
You are so right. It is hard to take the authors seriously when they substitute the hyperbole of elected officials for facts. I find it encouraging that Alabamans are so reluctant to throw good money after bad. I only visit family there once or twice a year, but usually leave with fresh stories of massive waste and corruption involving the "education" system.

[Gary Gunnels]

KentInDC,

Yet Alabama has outlawed vibrators. 🙂

[I wish Al Gore had stolen the]

"As for politics, we are committed to ....the rule of law..."

Oh then why did the Democraps wanted to violate Florida's election laws in 2000 with illegal "recounts"?

Hmmmm. However sometimes....

[Rick Barton]

Let's have a third zeitgeist; the political positions that Shannon Love at 02:05 PM. staked out for the Retros with the addition of non-interventionist foreign policy and victimless crime legalization.

For cultural icons, we can have P. J. O'Rourke...

http://www.self-gov.org/orourke.html

...and Oingo Boingo!

http://members.aol.com/thegneech/elflib.htm

[KentInDC]

Gary,
I won't deny that our home state has its share of shortcomings. By the way, vibrators aren't outlawed in AL - you just can't buy them there. Well, legally buy them, anyhow.

An example of why Alabamans are justified in voting down tax increases for "education" (assuming one accepts the premise that schooling is a function of the state):

For years I noted the presence of pedestrian overpasses and tunnels from schoolyards to empty fields on the other side of streets and wondered why they were built. Then I discovered that in order to be accredited a school in AL had to have a schoolyard of a certain amount of contiguous land. The amount varied with the age of the facility, and attendance and level of the school. If a street passed through the land, it could still be considered contiguous if the street were blocked during school hours, or if a tunnel or pedestrian overpass connected the plots of land. It immediately became obvious to me why urban kids have so many problems in school - their schoolyards are too small.

[Dan]

What in the world made this website worthy of a mention?

Under the definitions given, virtually nobody in America is "Retro". The Republican Party certainly isn't. Pat Buchanan isn't. Hell, even the Klan is too left-wing to be Retro.

What a bunch of horseshit. Republicans are defined as the sum total of every hateful thing believed by any Republican anywhere; Democrats are defined as the sum total of every undefined warm-and-fuzzy sentiment held by any Democrat anywhere. The fact that some of you are actually taking these straw men seriously is very disturbing.

[not "not Rick Barton"]

Sorry to have to break it to you, Rick, but P.J. O'Rourke isn't exactly a non-interventionist.

[not "not Rick Barton"]

Sorry to have to break it to you, Rick, but P.J. O'Rourke isn't exactly a non-interventionist.

[dhex]

manicheanistic dualism is *so* 200 CE.

[joe]

I have to assume that a lot of the Metros didn't really understand the "literal word of God" question as meaning what the Retros thought it meant.

[Jesse Walker]

The Dixie Chicks vs. Hank Williams III

Uh ... which one is supposed to be metro and which one is supposed to be retro? The pop-country trio that dissede Goerge Bush or the ex-punk who listens to Black Flag?

[Jesse Walker]

The Dixie Chicks vs. Hank Williams III

Uh ... which one is supposed to be metro and which one is supposed to be retro? The pop-country trio that dissed Goerge Bush or the ex-punk who listens to Black Flag?

[Warren]

joe,
Why would you have to assume that?

It's clear that the metro/retro tags are stand-ins for left/right. The left can be just as dunderheaded as the right and vice-versa. Sometimes I think they delibrately try to out stupid each other.

[growler]

The picture is of Hank Jr., not Hank III.

[Todd Fletcher]

"Sometimes I think they delibrately try to out stupid each other."

I think joe is familiar with that. See above.

[growler]

The picture is of Hank Jr., not Hank III.

[Jesse Walker]

The picture is of Hank Jr., not Hank III.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense. Though Hank Jr. should make the case that a lot of those metro habits are actually retro. "If I get stoned and sing all night long/It's a family tradition..."

[joe]

Yes, Warren, but they tend to have their own particular varieties of dunderheadedness, don't they?

Taking the Bible literally is not a particularly Metro dunderheadedness. Glibness towards religious question, on the other hand...

[dhex]

i used to think they had different flavors of stupid.

now i'm starting to believe they all double dip in the same bucket of nasty rainbow sprinkles.

i have the sinking feeling that the RNC debacle in waiting will merely confirm that.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

City mouse, country mouse.

I find it ironic that the authors feel compelled to invoke the "the principles of logic and scientific method" in such a highly partisan work (at least the first chapter). Not to quibble, but the traditional Democratic platform is full of policies that fly in the face of logic and science. Personally, I think the cause of science better served by a salient graph or chart than a picture of a crying Jimmy Swaggart.

Insofar as political analysis, I can understand the desire to dump the so-called "retro" voters and build on a "metro" base. Working class Americans have always been far too conservative for the liberal intelligentsia. On the other hand, national elections are won and lost by influencing an increasingly large group of swing voters who do not have the traditional "vote the ticket" loyalties. My impression is that these swing voters are not swayed by the sort of issues that appeal to the proposed "metro" base.

Perhaps in some distant utopia there will be a political party driven by better ideas... but probably not.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

City mouse, country mouse.

I find it ironic that the authors feel compelled to invoke the "the principles of logic and scientific method" in such a highly partisan work (at least the first chapter). Not to quibble, but the traditional Democratic platform is full of policies that fly in the face of logic and science. Personally, I think the cause of science better served by a salient graph or chart than a picture of a crying Jimmy Swaggart.

Insofar as political analysis, I can understand the desire to dump the so-called "retro" voters and build on a "metro" base. Working class Americans have always been far too conservative for the liberal intelligentsia. On the other hand, national elections are won and lost by influencing an increasingly large group of swing voters who do not have the traditional "vote the ticket" loyalties. My impression is that these swing voters are not swayed by the sort of issues that appeal to the proposed "metro" base.

Perhaps in some distant utopia there will be a political party driven by better ideas... but probably not.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

Oops... the dreaded double post.

And a musical question. Johnny Cash, metro or retro? As a overtly Christian country singer, it's easy to drop him in the retro category, but his work on the American label with Rick Rubin gained him a fair amount of metro recognition.

[dan]

Metro Johnny!

When U2's Bono writes songs for you, you're metro.

[Les]

I think these oversimplifications are typical of loyalists. And times like these bring out the loyalists in droves.

[Rick Barton]

P.J. O'Rourke isn't exactly a non-interventionist.

Sometimes he is:

http://www.cato.org/events/040623rec.html

[andy]

I think my IQ's gone down a few points from visiting that site.

[KentInDC]

Gary,
I didn't say outlawing the sale of vibrators wasn't bad. I was just correcting your statement. You can say enough bad stuff about AL without exaggerating.

How did you manage to so completely miss my point? I don't recall ever suggesting that public or private schools in AL (or any other state) don't "suck." In fact, my whole point was that most Alabamans aren't willing to waste any more money on public schools after seeing how the money is (mis)used. Maybe I am just an optimist, but I find that attitude encouraging and hope it is contagious.

[Ironchef]

Worst. Webpage/Book/Concept. Ever.

I cannot accept anyone attempting to define who I am (except myself). That Metro/Retro debate is a disgrace to logical thought, and a shame on anyone who considers those stereotypes to be true.

Tolerance is leaving people alone. As long as they do NOT interfere with anyone else's rights, they are free to do as they please.

I find more evidence that liberals disagree with this than conservatives.

[dhex]

"I find more evidence that liberals disagree with this than conservatives."

nah, you're hallucinating. no more nyquil before breakfast!

[Les]

"I find more evidence that liberals disagree with this than conservatives."

Maybe in terms of taking your money, but socially, conservatives interfere with people just as much as liberals.

[Gary Gunnels]

KentInDC,

Hmm, vibrator sales are outlawed then. This is equally bad.

I hate to break it to you but most Alabama schools (public or private) suck.

[Gary Gunnels]

Dan,

The fact that Shannon Love would create even more strawmen is also disturbing.

[J]

I think it's interesting that this site can't tell the difference between Kentucky and Tennessee.

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/states/