Christian Exodus

Taking a cue from the Free State Project is group called Christian Exodus, which seeks to "coordinate the move of 50,000 or more Christians to a single conservative state in the U.S. for the express purpose of reestablishing constitutional governance. It is evident that our Constitution has been abandoned under our current federal system."

The "problem," say the leaders of CE, include:

Christians have actively tried to return our entire land to its moral foundation for more than 20 years. We can categorically say that absolutely nothing has been achieved. If you disagree, consider this:

Abortion continues against the wishes of many States

Children may not pray in our schools*

The Bible is not welcome in schools except under strict FEDERAL guidelines

The 10 Commandments remain banned from public display

Sodomy is now legal AND celebrated as ?diversity? rather than perversion

Preaching Christianity will soon be outlawed as ?hate speech?

Gay marriage will be foisted upon us in the very near future

All these atrocities continue in spite of the fact that we now have the ?right? people in places of power. Indeed, the occupant of the White House is a professing Christian. The U.S. Attorney General is believed to be a devout Christian. ?Conservatives? control both Houses of Congress, and Republican presidents appointed seven of the nine Supreme Court justices. Christian activists placed the right party in power, but are we now witnessing the return to moral and constitutional government that we have demanded for so long?

More info here.

Link thanks to Jeff Patterson of Gravity Lens.

Comments

[Evan Williams]

Funny thing is, some "Libertarians" on this posting board have called them "kooks" for having a goal of secession from the union. Libertarian should know better than anyone that freedom to secede still exists.

Let 'em secede. Let 'em see how they like having to run a theocracy.

[Madog]

Why would we be in favor of letting a majority in a state secede in order to oppress a minority in that state? If the christians in question don't want to be gay, get gay married, etc, then they are freee not to. Also, they don't have to have abortions. I have a problem with states rights vs federal rights when they are used to curtail the liberities of others.

BTW, that's the genius of Lincoln -- buy turning the civil war into a war about slavery rather than states rights, he won the moral high ground in history books. Otherwise it would have gone down as the US's first step toward Empire.

[Fred Gillette]

So they settled on SC. Now they need a good bumper sticker slogan. How about, "JC in SC by '03"? OK, so they'd have to travel back in time a bit to make it work.

[Will]

I'm from South "We stopped John McCain in his tracks" Carolina and among my friends the discovery of this website caused quite a stir.

I think of the candidate states, SC would win because:

-SC is one of the few states left that have advanced Blue Laws

-There is a large, established population of Christian Evangelicals

-The state is still functionally segregated along race, sex and class lines

-There are very few institutions of higher learning, and the only tier-1 and 2 level colleges are very tiny (thus would burn quickly and easily.)

-There are very few Catholics, Jews, Muslims or other dissenting religions

-The state has all but shut down Abortion clinics

-The streets are littered with religious tracts

-Homosexuals are treated openly as second-class citizens

-The state has a history of seceding

I also vote that our new Christian overlords move the capitol from Columbia to Greenville, in part, because Greenville is home to Bob Jones University and most recently was the launching ground for a new Christian radio format, God & Country...

Of course if SC ever does secede (again) and adopts a Christian theocracy (because, really that?s what the Christian Exodus people are advocating) they can model themselves after other Christian resistance movements... just like the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda!

My advice to anyone who finds himself or herself in a conservative state when the Christians start burning the capitol: Sharpen your machetes, and stock up on home HIV tests ? you?ll need them both.

Personally, I could care less. I live in that bastion of a democratic, secular, urban-utopia called Chicago?

[a helpful atheist]

Not if they mean 3003.

[Ricky]

Not a bad ideal. They could create a tax haven and attract alot of businesses from nearby states. The whole persecution of gays and others with low christian morals does sound distasteful. If they were true christians then they would leave those people alone and allow god to judge them.

[Fred Gillette]

BTW, does anyone know if Armageddon is still on for this summer? Heard it might get put off until after the election.

[Mark S.]

Another thing I noticed is that the fundies have been playing the "victim" card over the last decade or so: Those dastardly "secular humanists" are trying to rob Christians of their religous liberties by asking to keep their preaching at home or in church. They kvetch are being persecuted for voicing their anti-gay or anti-abortion views anytime someone points out how backward and bigoted they sound.

Sorry folks, but Christianity, in one from or another (e.g. Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics--Yes! Catholics are Christians!), is the majority faith in this nation. You are far from ever being an oppressed minority. So quit your whining, toss the Bible back in the motel nightstand drawer (or better yet, the garbage,) and get on with your life while staying out of mine!

[Fred Gillette]

Flipping through the various posts just now to find the most humorus line. The runners-up were grizzly, madog, dhex, and Mark S. But the winner is...Will!

-There are very few institutions of higher learning, and the only tier-1 and 2 level colleges are very tiny (thus would burn quickly and easily.)

How very to-the-point.

[Fred Gillette]

Oops, 'humorous', that is.

[Mark S.]

Make that "They kvetch about..."

[Eric II]

"I live in that bastion of a democratic, secular, urban-utopia called Chicago"

The use of the last adjective in this situation is quite debatable. And given the antics of the Daleys, so is the first, at least when used in the lower-case.

[grizzly]

Fred Gillette,

It's an honor just to be nominated. I would like to thank the academy...ummm...nevermind.

[Czar]

"Why AL, MS, and SC? Why not WY, ND, ID, or some other place with a smaller population? 50,000 activists could make more of a difference in those places."

Don't know about Wyoming or North Dakota, but as a lifelong Idahoan I can tell you that Idaho would not be a good choice for a bunch of religious nuts. Sure, southern Idaho is Mormon country, but northern Idaho tends to have more of an Objectivist/libertarian/classical liberal/we have stupid religious people slant. People vote Republican basically to keep California-origin Democrats from screwing things up, and your precious Libbies have been known to win more than a few elections. The whole conservative image is basically there to keep people from moving here and ruining a good thing.

[grizzly]

BTW is it just a local thing to refer to fundamentalists as "crispies" or is it common other places as well? It's a fairly common term here but I haven't seen anyone else use it.

[Douglas Fletcher]

Goofy.

[grizzly]

"I just read something on http://www.politics1.com that said they had definitely settled on South carolina. So Alabama and Mississippi are in the clear. It was about the fourth item on the list."

Whew. Dodged a bullit on that one.

[Ken Layne]

South Carolina ... I guess I just figured these folks would be looking for a state without so many black people, ya know? SC's got 13 counties with a majority black population. (The interior hillbilly counties have the lowest black population, under 30%.)

Also, there's that whole "new south yuppie" thing: "South Carolina's population is
expected to increase by 1.1 million by 2025; a third of the new residents will likely move to coastal areas," according to the SC Quality Growth Initiative. 50,000 fundamentalist christians ain't going to matter against 366,000 incoming coastal yuppies who will bring ever more Trader Joe's, yuppie pot-smoking on weekend yachts, Cabbalah classes, Ethiopian restaurants, Coastal Cleanup days with wine tastings, pilates & stripper-workouts at the gym, Nature Conservancy stickers on Honda hybrids, reggae festivals, Pier I Imports and all the other decadent upper-class comforts David Brooks won't ever shut up about. (Remember that the McCain - Bush primary race in SC was pretty tight, about 50-45 if I recall. So even the Republicans in SC are split between moderates and Bob Jones types.) These exodus folk don't have a chance in hell.

It is sad that there's really nowhere to go if you're looking to set up a utopia for your faith, politics, etc. Old Joe Smith and his merry mormons learned the hard way that you can't take over a place unless it's basically empty. What B. Young managed in moving all those people to the edge of the Great Salt Lake is incredible & it was a big success for them, despite having to eventually renounce the multi-wife plan to keep the US Army from invading. Utah is completely run by the Mormon church, and it's got a happy, healthy population & a solid economy. Then again, Mormons have always been more practical about business & money than your usual fringe-fundamentalist christians, who hang out on the lower end of the economic spectrum, praying for and rarely receiving financial help from an apparently uninterested God.

Compared to "Christian Exodus," the Free State thing looks positively cuddly -- they've even got a smiley porcupine friend as a logo -- and its goals seem admirable. I like how it tells the race cultists to kindly stay the hell away, and seems to actually be promoting Jeffersonian liberalism rather than some "liberty 4 all 'cept queers & mexicans" often seen in lesser movements. But New Hampshire? Dude, that's like moving to Scotland or something, isn't it?

We have got to start colonizing the other planets and moons. When we have no new place for our nuts to go, we are no longer truly American.

[kmw]

More info here:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571

Off the deep end is puting it mildly.

[Steve in Houston]

Didn't Jim Jones try something like this back in the '70s?

Anyone know how that worked out?

[Linda]

...Trader Joe's, yuppie pot-smoking on weekend yachts, Cabbalah classes, Ethiopian restaurants, Coastal Cleanup days with wine tastings, pilates & stripper-workouts at the gym, Nature Conservancy stickers on Honda hybrids, reggae festivals, Pier I Imports...

DAMNIT...I need to get the hell out of Kentucky!

[Mark S.]

"Didn't Jim Jones try something like this back in the '70s? Anyone know how that worked out?"

I think the whole project went belly up.

Here! Have some Flavor-Aid. (TM) It's grape...

[Eric II]

"I like how it tells the race cultists to kindly stay the hell away, and seems to actually be promoting Jeffersonian liberalism rather than some "liberty 4 all 'cept queers & mexicans" often seen in lesser movements."

You must be thinking of the LINOs, the Dubya groupies who take non-conservative views on pot and maybe abortion, and then proceed to gleefully parrot the GOP line on nearly everything else of import. I think there are at least a few around here.

[Larry A]

{I just read something on http://www.politics1.com that said they had definitely settled on South Carolina. So Alabama and Mississippi are in the clear.}

I suppose if you're considering secession you should probably select a state with at least one seaport. Anyone who remembers West Berlin behind the Iron Curtain should know that.

New nomination for the scariest words list: "I'm from the Christian government, and I'm here to help you."

Be careful what you wish for. Even as a lifelong Christian I read enough history to know that, since the fall of Rome, the religion that has created the vast majority of Christian martyrs is Christianity.

[jessy]

These guys clearly haven't heard of separation of church and state. Or they don't think it applies to them. Or they don't think it was a good idea in the first place. Where do these people come from? And what are they so afraid of?

Rod: please don't apologize for people over whom you have absolutely no control. There are idiots, whackos, and fanatics on every side of an issue who embarass their tolerant and reasonable compatriots. I'm sure a bunch of Christian conservatives are having a grand old time being witty to each other at the expense of some flaky liberals.

Gary Gunnels: if you liked The Handmaid's Tale, I highly recommend Native Tongue by Suzette Haden Elgin. Not so . . . highbrow, but an excellent read.

Did you see how Linda's logic circuits shorted and she totally misinterpreted Mo's point about certain similarities between certain nationalist movements? It's kind of like certain people of color who find reason to be insulted if they hear anyone compare the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement.

[Dan]

I'd say, what we see here is smarmy, stupid atheists (the sort who KNOW they don't need no stink'n God and who have contempt for those that do)...

You're an adult man with an invisible playmate. Explain to me why I shouldn't find that at least a little bit contemptible. Would you call me "smarmy" and "stupid" if I had contempt for grown men and women who still believe Santa Claus brings them presents at Christmas?

Now, it's certainly not *polite* to openly express contempt for religious people (although it is, oddly, considered perfectly polite to show contempt for nonreligious folks like myself). But smarmy and stupid? Sorry, I just don't see it.

[Linda]

Actually, I wasn't insulted at all. I even sent Mo a personal email to that regard.

What Mo was saying, took the focus away from the wacky Christian group by comparing the NoI and Zionist movements. I tried to bring it back, and THAT was misinterpreted as taking offense.

Really, go back and read my comment. I very quickly say that those movements aren't similar (and they're not...not nearly as much as gay rights compared to civil rights), then add that it is beside the point, hence a bit irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Then, I made my point.

[Gary Gunnels]

"Children may not pray in our schools"

What a canard; children may pray until they are blue in the face - they simply can't be directed in their prayers by the teacher, etc.

"Preaching Christianity will soon be outlawed as 'hate speech'"

Hyperbole; and if such an attempt were to be made, this gay atheist would be the first to stand in the way.

"Sodomy is now legal AND celebrated as 'diversity' rather than perversion"

And people question why I won't vote for a Republican. Modernity and civilization are passing these people by; they are the Christian equivalent of all the other reactionary thugs the 20th century has spawned from Bosnia in 1914 to the caves of Afghanistan in 2001.

[garym]

Let's give them North Dakota. No one would miss it anyway.

Seriously, though, it's disgusting but predictable that their idea of "constitutional government" consists of instituting Christianity as a state religion. I wonder, though, if they've realized that unless they secede from the union, they'll still be bound by the Bill of Rights?

[Coarsetad]

They should move to Vermont... I hear that state is all for social experimentation.

[rod]

I'm a pretty conservative Christian. These people are depressing. On behalf of everyone on my team, I apologize.

[Eric]

"coordinate the move of 50,000 or more Christians to a single conservative state in the U.S. for the express purpose of reestablishing constitutional governance. It is evident that our Constitution has been abandoned under our current federal system."

What's truly sad about these clowns is that they've probably lied to themselves well enough to buy into this line of BS. "Projection" doesn't begin to describe this sad state of mind. Reminds me a lot of Al-Qaeda's hysterical screeds about how the entire world is now waging war against Muslims.

[joe]

I'm a liberal Christian. If you have not love, you are as a clanging bell. These are not people of love.

[a helpful atheist]

No, no - it's a great idea. And I am more than happy to sacrifice my time and money to help Christians move away. Far, far away.

[Gary Gunnels]

Eric,

You echo my comments on the "caves of Afghanistan." We agree for once; does that mean the apocalypse is upon us? 🙂

[Jeff]

Give'em California. It's far away from Free State New Hampshire, the established "Moral Government" will put an end to Hollywood, and the inevitable "big one" will provide them with a biblical-scale "end of days."
Everybody wins.

[Joe Majsterski]

Did anyone notice the three states they're considering? Alabama, Mississippi, and South Carolina. No offense, but they can have 'em. Those states are already so far gone, it wouldn't make much difference to have 50,000 devout Christians move into any one of them. Someone just recently mentioned an attempt in Alabama a few years ago to make Southern Baptism the state religion!

[Patrick]

As someone who spent years studying and living in the Middle East I think this is an excellent idea. If they need to prove to themselves just how badly government and religion can be debased when mixed it is better that they mangle a small state instead of the whole country.

Tha state's 'heathen' are always welcome in other states. I wonder if they'll have to implement strict border controls later as their children try to escape.

[Gary Gunnels]

Hmm, why am I reminded of William Bradford's history of "Plymouth Plantation?" 🙂 Note that within fifty years of the creation of the "City Upon a Hill," that is, the "New Jerusalem," it was run by a hereditary caste of petty autocrats. Thus the creation of such colonies as Rhode Island as people fled their despotic rule.

[Slippery Pete]

I think this is a terrific idea, and I support it. It would rid 49 states of large numbers of wackos. The one unfortunate state they select, however, would still have something called the US Supreme Court to contend with. They'd inevitably have far fewer US senators on their side, because they'll only be able to send 2 to Congress, the other states having been drained of fundies. The other 98 senators, one can assume, would be much more favorably inclined to retain secular democracy over illiberal theocracy.

Where can I send them money?

[Eric]

Gary, I only recall one instance in which you publicly disagreed with me on an issue; something about the effects of immigration on religion, I think. Maybe there's another Eric posting here? Come to think of it, that would explain why (to my bemusement) you labeled me as a conservative in that instance.

[Gary Gunnels]

Eric,

That is possible; perhaps I should mouse over your name in the future to see what your e-mail address is.

[Jeff]

Funny thing is if you said you wanted to relocate 50,000 christians to a new location they would call it persecution.
With the Libertarian Free State project, and now this, has anyone heard of a Liberal State project?

[alkali]

The project some libertarians have in mind to concentrate in one state used to strike me as a little crazy. I apologize for thinking that. Now, this idea, that's crazy in a bottle. This is what crazy's all about.

[Joe L.]

Yeah, DARN those Pesky Christians, for attempting to influence the body-politic! Now of course, Libertarians/libertarians can, but THAT'S DIFFERENT...

What's different is that YOUR ox is being gored and not mine...

Yes Sirree Bob, those fundi's they = the taliban...

Just like EVERYONE KNOWS Libertarins are nothing but a bunch of dope-smoking, whore-using, tax cheats that don't want to help their neighbor... Oh sorry I was just using stereotyping and that's wrong, unless the RIGHT people do it.

[Garth]

The way I read the website, I think they are actually advocating succession from the union so that the Bill O'Rights and the Supreme Court would no longer apply/have any say.

Anyone else read it that way?

[a helpful atheist]

Joe L.,

You are so right. Hey, if you need help moving, you let me know - I'll be there as soon as I can.

[Fred Gillette]

They would have to be 50,000 like-minded and compatable (i.e., a single sect) people or they would just end up with their own civil/religious war.

A friend of mine went to Waco in the Seventies. He said there were quite a few Christian sect/cults there at the time and none got along with the others. (I'm not talking about main-stream faiths.) He saw two guys angrily whacking the shit out of each other with their Bibles in the middle of a road. Oh, Rapture!

Eric and Gary,

There do seem to be two Erics here, just like there were two Freds until I changed my tag to...

[Eric II]

Fred, thanks for clearing that up. I suppose this kind of issue is bound to pop up when there aren't any registration requirements. I think I'll go by a slightly different handle, as shown here.

[Franklin Harris]

As a resident of Alabama, I thought I already lived in the kind of state these whackjobs want.

[Slippery Pete]

I'm not an expert, and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. But if I recall correctly, the US constitution doesn't even mention God a single time.

Am I wrong?

If not, what the fundies clearly what to do operate outside the bounds of US democracy (the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court, etc.). This is fundamentally different from the libertarian plan to move en masse to New Hampsire or Wyoming or wherever.

[Linda]

This reminds me of something similar. Specifically,

4. We want our people in America whose parents or grandparents were descendants from slaves, to be allowed to establish a separate state or territory of their own--either on this continent or elsewhere. We believe that our former slave masters are obligated to provide such land and that the area must be fertile and minerally rich. We believe that our former slave masters are obligated to maintain and supply our needs in this separate territory for the next 20 to 25 years--until we are able to produce and supply our own needs.

[Shawn Smith]

Gary,

Yes, one Eric is Eric Christ (short "i"), a self described conservative Christian. The other Eric (posting on this thread) uses tsrec as his email name, and doesn't seem to share the conservative Christian ideas with Eric Christ.

I seem to remember some polling data that indicate 10% of Christians consider themselves fundamentalists. If true, that would mean about 17 million adult fundies live in this country, and I don't really see how 50,000 moving to one state would have much of an effect. It could turn a few close elections, but I don't see there being that many close elections in MS, AL, or SC. It seems they would need MANY more people.

[Mark S.]

I'm a little torn about the FSP and this new development. Part of me believes that individuals do indeed have the right to exercise their "pedal franchise" and create societies where they can live as they choose. If libertarians, such as myself, do not feel that our government is protecting our freedom and peaceful political change is not feasible then the idea of a Libertarian state does sound very appealing. At the same time, If the fundies really and truly think that the U.S. is a lost cause, I say let them leave. They can be as hateful, bigoted, and backward as they wish as long as they do it among themselves.

The other part of me is sad to see that things have gotten to the point in this country where anyone is remotely considering doing this. What will we see next? Will african-americans who think the US is irreparably racist create black-only enclaves? Will Baptists what to be segregated from Catholics, Lutherans, Mormons and other Christian denominations they feel don't follow the "right" path. Will America break down into a balkanized collection of walled cities made up of various political, ethnic, religious, and social populations?

At the risk of sounding cliche: Can't we all just get along?

On the other hand, I suppose this is what comes when people are more concerned with telling their neighbor how to run their life than minding your business.

[Joe L.]

There ARE reasonable critiques of these sorts of "VOORTREK" but they seem to be missing here.

How about the Civil War and how about the Supreme Court and the USC, as starters...

Of course, the latter two would apply to the FSP as well, but no one here seems to care.

I'd say, what we see here is smarmy, stupid atheists (the sort who KNOW they don't need no stink'n God and who have contempt for those that do)...

Bottom-line: the program will fail, if it leads to a trek at all, it will yield division and dissension within the group, and then much conflict with the locals and the Fed's. Again, all points that can be made about the Free State Project, only I'm willing to bet the FSP is much better received, because "we" like THEM.

[Gary Gunnels]

Joe L.,

These Christians are free to do what they want to; and I am free to criticize them. If you don't like this set-up, then move to the People's Republic of China.

What is ironic here of course is this: I would defend their rights, yet they would have me put into jail or into some sort of "re-education center." These are the sort of people described so aptly in the novel "A Handmaid's Tale."

Slippery Pete,

No, there is no mention of God (be it in the form of "Creator" or "Supreme Being" or etc.) in the Constitution. Whatever support they would have for such views is extra-textual; the problem with this is that the Framers themselves were not of one mind on issues of state and church, etc. - indeed, they were of many minds on the subject, with individuals shifting their views over time both before, during and after the Convention.

[Slippery Pete]

Joe L:

If you think atheists are smarmy, you haven't watched PAX TV lately.

[Eric]

Gary Gunnels,
Yes, there is another Eric, and this is the one you disagreed with (though "slandered" might be the better term) earlier this week or so.

I don't have much of an opinion on this story, though. Some of what they've said has elements of truth. There have been cases where students saying grace aloud have been ordered by teachers to say it silently, for example. There have also been cases (mostly in Erurope, I believe) where Christian pastors have been threatened with hate crimes if they preach state-disapproved teachings on homosexuality.

But like any group of like-minded individuals, they're free to do what they're doing. I wouldn't do it myself. Beyond that, I don't much care.

[Gary Gunnels]

Mark S.,

Recently I argued that the U.S. is headed for something the lines of the backstory found in the novel "Love in the Ruins," and this story only bolsters this remark. You have to ask yourself whether an American balkanized along lines of religion, etc. is what you want.

Joe L.,

I suspect you don't like the criticism because it hits too close to home; and for you to tell me what is and is not "reasonable" criticism of people who would put me in jail for being gay is a bit a laugh. When I threaten you with jail time because of your belief system, then perhaps we can discuss "reasonableness."

[a helpful atheist]

Joe L.,

You were doing so well....

I really do think that Christian Exodus is a wonderful idea. I have no problem with Christians moving to Mississippi (although garym is right - North Dakota would be better). If Christians really wish to divorce themselves from the body politic, hell, I'd even be willing to pay alimony.

[Gary Gunnels]

Joe L.,

It ought to be noted that in calling Atheists "smarmy," you're doing what you accuse me and others of.

[Jesse Walker]

Too bad New Hampshire isn't one of the states they're considering. It would be fun to watch the libertarian immigrants and the theocrat immigrants duking it out.

Hey -- that would make a pretty funny movie.

[grizzly]

Don't send them to Alabama...don't send them to Alabama...don't send them to Alabama.
Although, from my point of view (being a liberal atheist and all) I don't think 50k would make a difference. We already have 4.5 million, what's 50k more.

[Mo]

Joe L,
The main difference is that the FSP wants to work with the current system and fix a state goverment. There is no talk of secession, unlike this group. I quote:

ChristianExodus.org is orchestrating the move of 50,000 or more Christians to one of three States for the express purpose of dissolving that State?s bond with the union.

That alone makes them kookier. I have nothing against Christians, but these guys are nutballs and are worthy of our derision (not to say the FSP isn't full of nutballs and kooks).

Linda,
Except for the two decades of welfare, that sounds like Zionism in a nutshell (not the whole thing, just from the part you quoted). Just replace the word slaves with Jews.

[Madog]

Maybe they can move to South Carolina and get it to leave the Union again.

"South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum." - James Petigru

[Linda]

Mo,

Ironically, I am Jewish...and I would have to say that The Nation of Islam is not at all like the Zionist movement. But, that's beside the point.

What I was alluding to, was the obvious segregation with regard to national law, namely constitutional changes, under the umbrella of religion.

[troubalert]

Sounds like this group believes we're in a culture "war", huh?

Unfortunate for the Republicans. The group in charge of their party seems dissatisfied with its results. What could be next?

[thoreau]

Why AL, MS, and SC? Why not WY, ND, ID, or some other place with a smaller population? 50,000 activists could make more of a difference in those places.

[Mo]

Linda,
I didn't mean the Zionist movement was at all like the Nation of Islam (I'd be just as crazy as these Christian Exodus guys if I believed that). I meant the desire for a state to be established either home or abroad to be provided by another power. Granted fertile and mineral rich isn't the first thought that comes to mind regarding most of Israel but the movement wasn't just about Israel.

I was drawing the comparison to the the desire of establishing a religious state, partly as a means to right past wrongs. I apologize for implying that Zionists bear any sort of connection to the NoI beyond that narrow one.

[Joe Majsterski]

I just read something on http://www.politics1.com that said they had definitely settled on South carolina. So Alabama and Mississippi are in the clear. It was about the fourth item on the list.

[dhex]

shit. and i wanted them to come to brooklyn to do battle with the hacidim and their mitzvah tanks.

MITZVAH TANKS VERSUS BIBLE BUSSES: THE REVENGE!!!!!!

souped up RVs and minivans, tract-launching, the whole nine yards...

[joe]

To: Christian Exodus

From: joe

Re: Leaving U.S.

N-kay. Buh-bye.

[Jimmy Antley]

I don't see much difference at all between what the Christians want to do in S. Carolina and the FSProject in New Hampshire.

If the libertarians in NH want to really abide by the Constitition, ironically, they would have to seccede from the union also. No way the current Supreme Court, 5 of which can't even understand Bill of Rights #1, will let them get away with abiding by the rest of the Amendments (especially 2, 9, and 10).

Also, Will, I doubt you spent much time in South Carolina, as your description of it is far from reality. Let's see ...

"There is a large, established population of Christian Evangelicals" OK, if 5% of the population is "large". And, more power to them.

"-The state is still functionally segregated along race, sex and class lines" No, it's not, where in hell do you get that? The main racial problem is affirmative action, as in most any other state. Do you mean that men act like men, and women act like women? What do they do in Chicago, Will? Actually, I don't want to know.

-"There are very few institutions of higher learning, and the only tier-1 and 2 level colleges are very tiny (thus would burn quickly and easily.) Excepting, of course, Univ. of South Carolina - 25,000 students in Columbia, maybe 5000 others in branch campusus (sp?), Clemson (in the upstate), about 1/2 as big and with another good engineering school, College of Charleston, Citadel, Newberry College, Winthrop, ....

-There are very few Catholics, Jews, Muslims or other dissenting religions." There are quite a few Catholics (some of the background is the Hugenouts who came to the low country from France waaay back). Charleston and Beaufort have big Jewish families there from way before the War between the States. You may be right about muslims, but that doesn't bother me a bit.

-"The state has all but shut down Abortion clinics." ????? Huh?

-"The streets are littered with religious tracts." No, most of the streets aren't littered at all, unlike Chicago. Litter is mostly seen along the interstate and there's no way to tell what it is at 80 mph.

-"Homosexuals are treated openly as second-class citizens." Not true. There is a large homo. community in Columbia, SC for example, which has about 10 gay bars, not that I've ever accidently walked into one. You're just making this stuff up as you go along, Will!

-"The state has a history of seceding" Yeah, now there's a true statement - I can stop here. Also a good thing. Chicago, of course, would have no chance of secceding for any reason, even if Mayor Daley decided to personally butt-fuck each and every first-born male, as you have given up your guns to the gov't. Good move, slick Willy...

[Ezra]

Does the Christian Exodus site actually state that they want to set up a theocracy? I didn't see that anywhere. "Christian Nation" could mean a lot of things.

Also, Larry, this: "the religion that has created the vast majority of Christian martyrs is Christianity" is incorrect. As killing people is and always has been against the the way of Christianity, those doing the killing could not have actually been real christians, at least the great majority of them. If you meant that the adherants of the giant government-whore man-made-religion known as "catholicism" were killing christians, oh OK, sure, that I can agree with.

No, you can't call catholicism a "christian religion" as it doesn't even teach the basis of christian faith, namely, the complete/total/once-for-all-time sufficiency of the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ for the payment of sins without a single tiny thing we can do to justify ourselves before God. Bleh. Doesn't anyone remember The Reformation these days? I suppose if we're just chatting in generalities again, OK, sure, catholicism says something vague about Christ, so I guess that makes it "christian".

[El Cid]

Ken, why on earth would you think we would look for a State with less black people? Man, y'all have this movement and this idea figured all wrong.

[Ranger]

FSP or Christian Exodus aside, whether you believe in the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God, etc... is one thing. To be a complete atheist, devoid of any belief in anything that transcends our understanding, is the perfection of ignorance and stupidity.