The Rummy-O-Meter

I guess that color-coded warning scheme is good for something. Via Wonkette.

Comments

[Dave Straub]

George....?

[Dan]

Although I really don't think Rumsfeld's job is in the slightest danger, that's still pretty damn funny. 🙂

[Ken Shultz]

Not in the slightest danger....okay...if you say so. But maybe he'll be in some slight danger when we've broken out the popcorn and watched those videos he was talking about. I wonder if they're "talkies"?

Dave,

Rather than, "George?" I would have put, "McNamara Who?"

[Dan]

But maybe he'll be in some slight danger when we've broken out the popcorn and watched those videos he was talking about.

Why would he be?

The available evidence, from polls and the like, is that the American people don't blame Rumsfeld for this. Nor, thus far, has there been any reason why they should -- his role in this scandal so far has been one of a man pushing for the abuses to end and the guilty to be punished. Further evidence of wrongdoing at the prison isn't going to result in calls for his head; it's going to result in calls for even harsher punishments for the people who were in charge of the prisoners, and the prison, and perhaps even their superiors. None of this even comes close to Rumsfeld. The crooks responsible for this are too far down the chain of command from him.

[Ken Shultz]

Tell me Dan, I know we don't have all the facts, but it's been suggested that the degradation that those poor souls were subjected to was actually ordered by higher-ups to try to extract information from them. And, I have to admit, as much as it sickens me, that charge rings true. Don't you think?

If this horror show was ordered, if it resulted from a lack of supervision of contractors, if we find out that prisoners were murdered, if this is in any way tied to an insufficient number of troops being deployed, the kind of pressure that brought Rummy in front of congress today is going to get a lot worse--a lot worse. In an election year! Are you kidding? Secretary's heads have rolled for a lot less! (Think MacNamara.)

[Dan]

And, I have to admit, as much as it sickens me, that charge rings true. Don't you think?

No, I think that's a really silly idea. Degrading the prisoners provided zero benefit to the war effort, or to anything else Rumsfeld or the Pentagon would care about; on the other hand, it represented the potential for (as we are seeing) an enormous propaganda coup for our enemies and threatens the careers of numerous members of the military. In addition, anyone who didn't like Rumsfeld (which includes a LOT of Pentagon careerists) would have a vested interest in leaking the order to the press.

Now I realize you're going to say that the degredation WAS supposed to help the war effort -- that it was an interrogation technique. That argument doesn't hold water either. If the government wanted to use these techniques for interrogation, they would do it in a remote, secure environment (i.e. Gitmo) under the control of trained professionals -- not in a big prison, full of lots of *ordinary* criminals of no intelligence value, controlled by a mixed bag of reservists, private contractors, intelligence personnel and ordinary soldiers. In addition to that, the theory that higher-ups ordered this behavior is completely inconsistent with the known fact that the military began disciplinary proceedings against the people involved months before their behavior became public.

So on the one hand, we have the possibility that some soldiers got out of hand. On the other, we have the possibility that the Secretary of Defense decided to issue an order, illegal under American, military, and international law, that benefitted neither himself nor the war effort, which if discovered would, at the very least, end his career.

And the second choice "rings true" to you? Um, ok.

In an election year! Are you kidding? Secretary's heads have rolled for a lot less! (Think MacNamara.)

Have you heard of the Bay of Pigs invasion? McNamara recommended it. It was about a thousand times more embarassing and damaging to Kennedy than Abu Ghraib is to Bush. In addition to that, it led directly to the Cuban Missile Crisis. McNamara not only wasn't fired -- Johnson kept him on afterwards.

In fact, McNamara was never fired; he resigned, late in the Johnson administration over disagreements with Johnson over the proper conduct of the war. Johnson clearly didn't push him out because of an upcoming election, since (a) Johnson wasn't running for reelection and (b) McNamara was, by then, beginning to argue for disengagement, which was the popular position to hold.

So, sure; think McNamara. By those standards, Rumsfeld will be around for years to come. 🙂

[zorel]

was this the same McNamara who was the president of the world bank or something like that way back when?

(this is just a RFI type Q)

[Ken Shultz]

I'm posting from my phone again, so I'm gonna keep it short and I'm gonna pray that I don't quadruple post.

Did you see "The Fog of WarL`?v

[Ken Shultz]

Damn!

[Ken Shultz]

So what?

Those photos, regardless of whether or not the VC prisoner deserved it and regardless of whether or not that poor little girl lived happily ever after, still provoke controversy more than thirty years later. I wake up this morning and hear on TV that the nightmare scenario I mentioned yesterday is base line--we have film of U.S. Soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner to death like a bunch of SS thugs.

Rumsfeld told us yesterday that he was taking full responsibility for everything that happened. He also described his resignation as "possible". I find it remarkable that you're more sure of Rumsfeld's future than he is. But, once again, we'll see.

[David Tomlin]

Or maybe Kim lives in Canada.

Two of her cousins were killed and her brother lost an eye.

http://www.iht.com/IHT/TB/00/tb062900a.html

http://www.cnn.com/2000/STYLE/arts/06/27/britain.famous.photo.ap/

[Dan]

was this the same McNamara who was the president of the world bank or something like that way back when?

Yes, he became President of the World Bank in 1968 (as I recall).

Did you see "The Fog of War"? McNamara left little doubt that he was forced to resign.

I don't begrudge McNamara a belated attempt at salvaging his reputation, but it's extremely foolish to take his word at face value. However, even if if you do accept that he's unbiased and correct about his reasons for resigning, at the rate things are going now Rumsfeld won't be "pushed out" until the mid-21st century, by which point he'll already be dead of old age. 🙂

Remember the photograph of that naked child screaming and fleeing the napalm attack on Trang Bang?

Yeah. She lives in the United States now, remember? 🙂

Remember the photo of the execution of a VC prisoner by Nguyen Ngoc Loan? The videos that Rumsfeld tried to prepare us for today; they're going to be like that.

So what?

[Nag]

Note to Ken:

Posting while drunk makes you look silly in the morning.

I know this from experience.

[Seriously]

I wish the "torturers" had shown a little imagination, considering their punishments will be far worse than their crimes.

I would have clothed the prisoners in flowery print dresses and posed them at a fake tea party.

Nothing in the Geneva Convention about fake tea parties.

[Less seriously]

There must be some rule against cucumber sandwiches.

Actually, they could have hung them on meathooks or put live wires to their scrotums or given them the good old "control shot" to the back of the head ... oh wait, Saddam did all that - it's old hat.

[Ken Shultz]

Okay...back in business.

Did you see "The Fog of War"? McNamara left little doubt that he was forced to resign.

Remember the photograph of that naked child screaming and fleeing the napalm attack on Trang Bang? Remember the photo of the execution of a VC prisoner by Nguyen Ngoc Loan? The videos that Rumsfeld tried to prepare us for today; they're going to be like that. Except instead of showing a South Vietnamese General executing a prisoner, instead of showing a victim as an unintended consequence of a bombing campign, they're going to show Americans deliberately violating the Geneva Convention, and they're going to show Americans jeering while they do it. Let's hope that neither the videos nor the photographs show us killing anybody hog-tied.

The few pictures that have already been released are provoking a huge reaction in the Muslim World, and, once the rest of it is released (I heard there are hundreds of photos!), it's going to look systemic. It's going to look like a huge systemic failure, and Rumsfeld is the CEO, and Rumsfeld has already said he is taking responsiblility for the lot. If the political reaction here in the U.S. is big enough, Rumsfled's head will roll.

Anyway, I guess we'll have to wait and see. One of us will get to tell the other, "I told you so.", and, call me a ham, but that's always gratifying to me. I'll see you around.

P.S. Want a measure of how big of a deal Bush thinks this is? Bush couldn't bring himself to apologize to the families of WTC victims for not catching 9/11, but he apologized for this!

[Douglas Fletcher]

"Posting while drunk makes you look silly in the morning."

Especially if you're drunk in the morning too.

[banu]

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