Paper Chase

Kevin "Calpundit" Drum has turned up some documents related to Dubya's much-contested National Guard service… and provoked a massive discussion in his comment section.

Comments

[Les]

Steve, I personally think that what happened 30 years ago isn't as important as how a person (especially someone who claims to stand for something) deals with it.

If G.W. had the balls to say "you know, I shirked my military responsibilities and did drugs for the same reason: I was young and stupid" then I'd actually admire him. Most of us did stupid things when we were young and I think one's ability to admit it reflects something about one's character.

Also, the story in question just reinforces the mystery of exactly what it is about G.W. that makes people think he should be president (a mystery for most politicians, but one particularly strange in regards to this man). I mean (and I think I'm digressing), what has Bush ever said or done of his own volition, without anyone telling him to say or do it, that is in any way impressive? I'm sincerely curious. Maybe I just missed something and someone out there can point me to an impressive off-the-cuff quote or independent action.

[Les]

And I don't understand the Clinton comparisons (even though I actively hate Clinton). Clinton was against the war in Viet Nam. Of course he'd avoid the draft. I think it's quite arguable that avoiding the draft into Viet Nam (or perhaps any conflict, seeing as how the draft is basically involuntary servitude) was a moral thing to do (which would make it one of the few moral things Clinton actually did).

[Les]

x-ray, didn't mean to imply that you were pointing fingers at Clinton. Though I'm often doing it myself.

[Gadfly]

Xray makes a good point. The goose and gander thing.

Well, the fact is the Republicans made a VERY big deal out of Clinton's past. Years and years past. In fact, they got a Special Prosecutor and spent seven years and $70 million dollars to look into the years and years past.

So, if Bush gets something less than an impeachment out of, not only his military record, but the lies and distortions that lead to the death of thousands, he's a very lucky guy.

[steve]

xray: I did, even though I didn't vote for him or support him in any other way in '92 and '96. I voted for GWB in 2000 and, barring some unforseen catastophe, will do so again in 2004.

I see little difference between Clinton and GWB on this score - and a world of difference between them and Kerry. Kerry is a hero, in the same way that every member of the military is: he gave himself for his country. What he did following his return - the medal throwing and accusations of war crimes - is despicable. The former doesn't excuse the latter.

That said, his legacy of the last 10 - 15 years says more about what to expect from the next 10; and for me, at least, he doesn't pass the test.

[s.a.m.]

This story wouldn't be so important if it weren't for the stupid, far right voices of Coutler and Limbaugh, among others, who had no problem calling the anti-war crowd treasonist cowards, hate america first, or saddam lovers. These people picked up the rocks and Bush's AWOL story is the glass house. A story like this marginalizes the right wing radio. For that, I want to know more!

[Jean Bart]

steve,

American servicemen did commit war crimes in Viet Nam; its not as if his accusations are that off-base after all.

[Jennifer]

Agree: there's a big difference between refusing to be inducted into the military as a draftee, versus going in, accepting a commission as an officer, and receiving specialized combat-pilot training that cost Americans taxpayers huge amounts of money in 1970s dollars.

My dad was career Navy, who joined up before the Army could draft him into Vietnam. Apparently, while my dad's parents were Big Fish in the hick little Indiana town where they lived, they were neither rich nor connected enough to get Dad a cushy little commission in the National Guard. Therefore, while Bush was coke-snorting his way through his AWOL period, Dad had to leave his wife and 2-year-old daughter to ride around on submarines.

So much for family values. And then a few years later George W. got arrested for drunk driving, and STILL nothing happened to him. Meanwhile, his diehard supporters refuse to admit he's the slightest bit less than ideal. Christ, what will Bush have to do-- rape and murder a hooker on live national television?-- before folks will admit he's corrupt?

Monica Lewinsky, if you're reading this, PLEASE just give the current Prez a blowjob so we can be rid of him!

[Jean Bart]

BTW, if you don't believe me, look into the U.S. Army's investigation into what was know as the "Tiger Force." Though never charged, approximately two dozen members of the force were found to have committed war crimes by a U.S. Army Commission. Indeed cover-ups and sham investigations were the norm for the U.S. during the Viet Nam war, and the repercussions of this created many calls and actions for reform of how the U.S. military polices its soldiers as they undertake military operations.

I know these things because we, the French Marine Corps, drew on these materials when we ourselves were reforming how we dealt with these issues. Because we had as dispicable a record on these matters as the U.S. had at one point.

[s.a.m.]

Monica Lewinsky, if you're reading this, PLEASE just give the current Prez a blowjob so we can be rid of him!

Good try Jennifer, but GW is a born again christian, he is entitled to a relapse or two with no repercussions as long as he admits to his sins and continues to seek Jesus as his savior. Keep in mind, God works in mysterious ways.

[Jennifer]

I agree with John Kerry and Jean Bart about American war crimes in Vietnam, for the same reasons I agree with Isaac Newton about gravity; it's bad form to deny the obvious.

Of course, in America we tend to be forgiving of our own-- "Gee, if I was a scared nineteen-year-old I might've fired my machine gun into that crowd of old ladies, so I can't be judgmental" but remember, everybody: Bush didn't go AWOL because he felt he'd be committing war crimes if he bombed Vietnamese villages. He went AWOL either because he was afraid of failing a drug test, or because he was bored.

[alma hadayn]

s.a.m.'s glass house reference is exactly what I was getting at: it is the Republicans who have tried to turn patriotic credentials into a central elections issue- remember the campaign ads against triple amputee veteran Max Cleland which featured Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, implying that Cleland was soft on security?

Also, steve:

To me, throwing the medals at the White House was an act of moral courage. Kerry felt-the way many patriotic Americans now feel- that the White House had engineered an unjust war resulting in the death of who knows how many thousands, and it would have been wrong not to speak out. (Although why he threw only his ribbons and others' medals and kept his own medals I can't say- but it seems a relatively minor part of the story.)

[alma hadayn]

"the way many patriotic Americans now feel"

I mean about Vietnem, although there are some who feel the same way about Iraq.

[steve]

Alma: he threw his ribbons and the medals of others because he does not possess the courage of his convictions. He voted to authorize the war in Iraq but refused to vote to fund it for the same reason (in my view). He stood in the Senate in 1992 and spoke, eloquently I think, in defense of Bill Clinton's Vietnam era actions as being patriotic and yet now he questions and derides GWB's service in the National Guard.

He is an opportunist and a moral relativist which makes him unfit to be Commander in Chief.

Just one voter's view.

[Jennifer]

Uh, wait a minute. . ."Steve" posted that John Kerry is unfit to be Prez because of the Vietnam-era protests he has made. Is this the same "Steve" who also asked of George W. Bush, what the relevance of an old AWOL incident might be?

Just asking.

[steve]

Same Steve, different point. I still don't care about the medals thing - just responding to Alma's mischaracterization of the episode.

He's not fit for CIC because of the more recent actions: 1992 speech defending Clinton, 2004 attack on GWB; Vote for the war, vote against the funding.

He is still a hero. Oh, and consistent too, if you care about such things.

[Jason Ligon]

Two issues are being intertwined here:

1) Is there a character issue with someone who would go AWOL to avoid service, or for whatever reason?

2) Does military service help to make one a good commander in chief?

Both the Repubs and the Dems reflect heartland values when they hit on the character issue. My take is that the actions of someone who was in for a few years in their late teens to early twenties doesn't necessarily speak volumes about their character. What DOES speak about their character is how they field questions about their past. Bush seems to be failing on that point, as do most politicians. Alma is exactly correct when he (she?) says that this is the bed the elephants have made for themselves, but that doesn't mean it is an objectively useful measure of anything.

If we are talking about a person with career military experience, then I can see the Commander In Chief argument. I never went in the service myself, but nearly all of my friends from my highschool days did. By all reports, the vast majority of enlisted don't have a slight clue about how the military works. They know how shooting, humping gear, and cleaning rifles work. 2LTs, or 'Butterbars' as the enlisted refer to this entry level officer, are not generally much more aware, as they lack the practical experience of the enlisted and the strategic experience of their superiors. You would have to be in service for a good while before I would argue that your service has made you significantly more informed than someone who has no direct experience but who can listen impartially to advisors.

[HH]

"Clinton was against the war in Viet Nam. Of course he'd avoid the draft."

Except he lied about it and there's proof. There's no proof of Bush being "AWOL" or a "deserter." So yes, it is a bad comparison.

[HH]

Note that the most recent Calpundit commenter (no Bush fan, evidently) says the documents exonerate Bush.

[steve]

Jason: "What DOES speak about their character is how they field questions about their past. Bush seems to be failing on that point, as do most politicians."

Politics is a nasty, brutish game of kill or be killed. The PRESS packages these things up in 30 second sound bites. Honesty is not rewarded it is used as a weapon. Hyperbole rules. Given this practical reality I don't expect any of them to be forthcoming about their personal actions. Clinton "forgot to inhale" because it gave him a way to admit something that would come out anyway in a way that was least damaging, regardless of how ridiculous it sounded or was.

[Gadfly]

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard," Mr. Kerry said. "Those are choices people make."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/04/politics/campaign/04MILI.html

Kerry said Bush "violated every single" premise laid out by Congress. "He went to war without building a legitimate coalition, without exhausting the remedies of the United Nations and not as a last resort. And that's why I was upset about it."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47468-2004Jan25.html

[Jon H]

Steve: "He is an opportunist and a moral relativist which makes him unfit to be Commander in Chief."

Bush is also an opportunistic, and a moral relativist.

While he runs his mouth about saving the sanctity of marriage, he hasn't said a damn thing about his own brother Neil, who admitted in court that he committed adultery countless times with prostitutes while on business trips in Asia. Later, he used an email message to tell his wife that he wanted a divorce.

Last I checked, Adultery was a commandment up there with murder, while homosexuality is banned as a tiddly little regulation that ranks with wearing mixed fibers.

[alma hadayn]

"Last I checked, Adultery was a commandment up there with murder, while homosexuality is banned as a tiddly little regulation that ranks with wearing mixed fibers."

Actually homosexuality is called a "toevah", usually translated as "an abomination", although I have heard it is etymologically related to "taboo". In Jewish law at least it is a capital offense.

[Jennifer]

Let me see if I understand this correctly--it is bad to be John Kerry, who fulfilled his war duty and then said, in effect, "Fighting in the war in Vietnam has made me realize the war is bad, so I now protest it."

Meanwhile, it is good to be George Bush, who accepts a commission and a lot of training as a pilot, and then sort of forgets to appear for duty for over a year, but at least he never says anything bad about the war in Vietnam, so he gets the moral high ground? Changing your mind about something, as a result of war experience, is morally inferior to verbally supporting the war while abandoning your promise to fight in it?

This makes no goddamned sense at all.

[thoreau]

Since this hasn't degenerated into a debate over Iraq, I will rejoin the debate. (Murphy's Law says the first post after mine will be about Iraq and then my original prophecy will come true.)

My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Kerry threw somebody else's medals at the White House because the other guy was a disabled vet who couldn't throw them on his own. As to why he threw some of his own decorations but not all of them, well, I don't know and I don't care.

What I do care about is that he served his country in uniform, concluded that his leaders were sending brave young men into a war that didn't serve his country's interests, and then went home to demand that his leaders change their policies. Whatever you might think of Vietnam, I see nothing unpatriotic about opposing a war if you believe it doesn't serve the best interests of your country. Especially if you have some first hand knowledge of that war. Maybe he was mistaken, and erred in his assessment of whether the war served the national interest. However, even a mistaken person can be a patriot. Just look at George "spend like a drunken sailor" Bush. He's made some horrible decisions, but few would question his patriotism.

I should also say that I respect the Vietnam vets who concluded that the war WAS in the national interest and supported it. I respect any informed person who acts lawfully to advance whatever he truly believes is in the national interest.

[Jennifer]

Interesting: while we debate whether or not Bush acted morally concerning the Vietnam war, William Saletan has a fascinating piece in Slate magazine about the current war, comparing Bush to Plato and the rest of the world to Aristotle:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2095160/

To summarize: Plato and Bush prefer theories and ideas to facts and reality; Aristotle and everyone else prefer facts and realities to theories and ideas. Clever piece.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau:

You're wrong about one little thing-- I question the patriotism of George W. Bush. After 9-11, when every flight in the country was grounded for a couple of days,there was one exception--the jet that flew around the country picking up Bin Laden family members and flying them out of the country. Some of them were no doubt material witnesses, but George--and I suppose I could give him credit for this--put loyalty to a family friend over loyalty to his country.

If you or I helped a terrorist's family escape the country we'd be called traitors. Any reason why Dubya's any different?

[xray]

Gadfly's right, it's the goose and the gander. I think the GWB-AWOL story matters because the "evidence" is easily as good as the WJC draft-dodger story, and the moral outrage from the accusers is equally hollow. If the attacks on WJC were legit, the attacks on GWB are too. This was bound to happen to the GOP: they had a great time throwing every imaginable accusation against Clinton (and some of it, properly, stuck); now that their boy in is in the hot seat, it's funny to watch them squirm under the same tactics they themselves perfected.

[Hick American]

JB,

Did the Vietnamese(North) ever commit any war crimes?

[Jon H]

alma hadayn writes: "Actually homosexuality is called a "toevah", usually translated as "an abomination", although I have heard it is etymologically related to "taboo". In Jewish law at least it is a capital offense."

My point is that a number of trivial offenses are also described as "an abomination".

Homosexuality is right up there with eating pork, shellfish, lobster; trimming beards; wearing clothing made of mixed fibers; and having sex with a woman during her period.

None of these activities rated mention in the 10 Commandments, as adultery is. Nor does the right wing blather on and on about civilization being endangered by cotton/polyester blends or the lack of facial hair in American society.

I await Bush's constitutional amendment to prohibit these things.

[Jean Bart]

Hick American,

Certainly; but two wrongs do not make a right. Indeed, it is my opinion that the commission of acts of terror and the like are generally counter-productive in war-fighting.

Also, the South Vietnamese army were also involved in atrocities; indeed, it tended to undermine what anemic popularity they had.

I of all people realize that warfare is not a pleasant exercise, and that death is a concomitant part of it; but directly targeting civilians and the use of what can be only called barbaric methods against captured combatants is not part of what we view in the post-WWII as acceptable methods of warfare.

[Jean Bart]

Hick American,

BTW, this is not mean as an attack on America's armed forces; I can't think of a military world wide that doesn't have to deal with these sorts of issues and the U.S. has taken a leading role in the past three decades in dealing with them. How to properly apply force is an important concern for all persons in the military, and I am not trying to insult the American military by arguing this. Indeed, I've trained with American military units and have always enjoyed the experience and found it useful and productive and I think we both sides came back from the experiences better.

[Kevin Carson]

Jarod,

Who would care about this? How about everyone who wasn't comatose for eight years when the Freepers were gleefully describing Clinton as a draft-dodger?

Come to think of it, all the people who swallowed the "bringing back honor and integrity" BS should be interested, too. Consider: a rich white boy whose daddy gets him into a much-coveted Guard post; who doesn't even bother to show up in Alabama, but counts on daddy to "work it out" for him after the fact; and who, thirty years after, uses a flight suit and real military people as props in a taxpayer funded campaign ad. These things just might bear on the allegedly sterling "character" he's been credited with.

Clinton only made it in office because of millions of uncritical "Razorback Brigade" shitheads who'd believe anything they needed to believe. Bush had better thank God that he's got an equally large army of Freeper shitheads.

[Overlord]

The only papers that count are Bush's discharge papers, and those say "Honorably Discharged", which they would not say if he had not completed his required service. Case closed. There are a thousand things that Bush can be rightfully criticized for, this is not one of them.

[John Q.]

The only papers that count are Bush's discharge papers, and those say "Honorably Discharged", which they would not say if he had not completed his required service.

Umm, there can be a whole lot of reasons your discharge papers say "Honorably Discharged" when your daddy is a high-ranking Republican during the Nixon Administration. This is particularly true when the "soldier" in question didn't do jack sh*t, except work on a Republican Senate campaign in Alabama.

[Kevin Carson]

Overlord,

Bush's "honorable discharge" was the moral equivalent of an emergency wedding ceremony for a woman in labor, performed as the kid's head is popping out. His daddy may have got the military to make an honest woman out of him and legitimize his bastard, but it didn't change all the fucking around he'd done earlier.

[thoreau]

I recall hearing in 2000 that some group of Vietnam veterans offered a reward for anybody who could prove that Bush attended all required meetings, training, etc.

Anybody here know details?

[Phil]

After 9-11, when every flight in the country was grounded for a couple of days,there was one exception--the jet that flew around the country picking up Bin Laden family members and flying them out of the country.

Um, this is not exactly what happened. At all.
See http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm
and http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2003_09_14_archive.html#106368110563967895

[Gadfly]

Thoreau, it was a $2,000 reward to anyone who could prove W reported to the Guard in Alabama. It remains unclaimed. Turnipseed (I love that name) apparently doesn't need an extra couple grand.

[Gadfly]

Here's a link to the reward. It expired Nov 6, 2000.

Did you know W was sworn into the ANG the same day he applied? I remember shopping Guard units all over the place and couldn't get in. Sweated 1A status for months and then got a good lottery number.

[Jean Bart]

gadfly,

Where is the link?

[Ammonium]

Isn't this old news? I was hearing about all this in 2000. Must be election time again.

Anyway, it's just another way for the real issues to be avoided. We'll be hearing from one side about how Bush is a draft dodger who stole the election. Then the other side will rush to defend the president as Mr. Moral. And nobody will be noticing how many more trillions of dollars both candidates want to waste by further socializing health care, using on ridiculous spending, etc.

[Gadfly]

I'm such a stupid. Here.

http://www.hereinreality.com/bushreward.gif

It is odd not a single person remembers seeing him in Alabama.

Re-check Calpundit. This thing's getting legs again.

[joe]

Alma, Steve,

Kerry threw somebody else's medals over the fence because their owner, another veteran, had seen Kerry on TV, supported the protest, but couldn't make it himself, so he sent Kerry the medals and a letter asking him to throw them for him. Kerry has always been up front about this, but people jump to conclusions anyway.

Why throw your ribbons but keep your medals? Having mixed feelings, even strong feelings that conflict with each other, about your service in Vietnam is pretty common. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your actions, but angry with the cause that put you there.

[joe]

"Clinton "forgot to inhale" because it gave him a way to admit something that would come out anyway in a way that was least damaging, regardless of how ridiculous it sounded or was.'

Steve, I have heard from the elders that during the late 60s and 70s, in certain circles, joints were commonly passed around in social situations, as it was just assumed that everyone who was there would be cool with it. People who were not, like say the types of nerds who grow up to be President and Senator yuppie power couple, would casually mime taking a hit and pass the joint on to avoid creating a scene. Can any of you fossils tell me if this really happened?

[SteveInClearwater]

How about we remove Kerry from the discussion.

What if Dean/Edwards people pull together for a younger/faster 1-2 combo of Dean/Edwards or Edwards/Dean? The 'anti-war' Dean along with Southener Edwards combine to almost match delegates with Kerry.

Leaving Clark's 10% or so to make the choice of which of the above to back.

I'd dig more discussion that doesn't presume Kerry as Dem nominee.

[SteveInClearwater]

Plus my above optimistic scenario leaves Kerry in his current role as very strong Senator, the most powerful role in government outside President.

If Kerry runs, wins and vacates his seat, he'd likely be replaced with another Dem, but one with far less power. Net result is not as good for Democrats.

I think either the Kerry/? combo or a Dean/Edwards combo could beat W, but sure like the latter as having more ability to cut into the swing states that went Repub in 2000.

[Jarod]

Wow. I thought Janet Jackson's "reveal" was going to be the biggest non-story of the year but I forgot about the "controversy" over George W. Bush's National Guard service. I mean, who really cares?

[alma hadayn]

I don't think Bush's military career is an important story at all in itself.

But the reason it may be appropriate for the Dems to seize on it is that a major plank of the new Republican platform is that Democrats are too wimpy when it comes to defending the country. At the very least we know that a family friend intervened to help get Bush into the Guard and avond going to Nam. (See the testimony of Ben Barnes, who was contacted by Sid Adger.) And that Bush arranged for an early discharge to attend Harvard Businees School.

If in addition Bush went AWOL for a while, it will be difficult for the Repubs to play up their military toughness against the triple Purple Heart-er Kerry. That is the signifigance of the story.

[thoreau]

Oh, what does this matter? Anything even vaguely related to war becomes a proxy battle for "Should we have invaded Iraq?" This basically amounts to "Is Bush a chicken-hawk?" which inevitably segues into "Should we have invaded Iraq?"

And since the battle lines are drawn on that subject, I don't see the point. So I'm going AWOL from that debate.

[steve]

Please allow me to review:

Bush was honorably discharged even after serving some disciplinary time for missing drills during a time when the active force in Vietnam was being reduced and, more importantly, the US presence there was being suspended. Yawn.

John Kerry served admirably (ne: heroically) then returned to the US where he protested the war by throwing someone else's medals onto the lawn of the White House while pretending they were his own and accused his military comrades of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Hmmmm.

Who, then, is best suited to be our Commander in Chief?

[Gadfly]

It just lends credence to the catchy term, "chickenhawk".

The real story, though, is how this got buried in the last election. The press seemed so intent on goring Gore that this (and the DWI and the snorting) just got dropped.

[steve]

Gadfly: couldn't agree more. The PRESS either is choosing not to do their job (inform) or is incompetent or, I suppose, some combination of both.

[John Q.]

Who, then, is best suited to be our Commander in Chief?

Personally, I like the "George W. Bush: Commander-in-Chief" action figure, with steely visage and enhanced package. He should run the country; can't do any worse than the clown we have right now.

[aleand]

steve and Gadfly,

I find the press' argument for why the aWol charge didn't have any legs in the 2000 election quite self-revealing: Gore didn't push it.

"Gore didn't push it"? Is it just the candidates' job to find holes and inconsistencies in each others' records?

I thought that was what journalists were for.

If you are in the mood to get depressed on the sorry state of US journalism, please do check this awesome NY Review of Books article by Massing on the press' role in the buildup to the war. Choiciest reads about the infamous Judith Miller.

[BigPhil]

A fluff story morphs into "Should we have bombed Iraq back into the Stone Age?".

Is this a great country, or what?

[Jennifer]

He probably went AWOL because that's the year the military started doing random drug tests. I think this IS a big deal; if my father, who lacked political connectionc, had vanished for a year during Vietnam, he theoretically could have faced execution, or at least a good long stint in Leavenworth. Certainly not an honorable discharge.

Granted, this is not a huge issue, and going AWOL is a relatively minor sin in the grand scheme of things, but I am sick and tired of wealthy, well-connected schmucks playing the same game as the rest of us only by different rules.

The Evil Bastards' Rationalization Guild addressed this issue in its most recent posting:

http://www.baddaystudio.com/evilAWOL.html

[steve]

A question: what is the importance of 30+ year old events committed in youth? I mean, both of them have lived more years since that time than they did before it. Aren't the last ten years more relevant?

Just asking.

[Jennifer]

Steve--

The 'youthful indiscretions' tag only goes so far. There's a huge difference between a kid who spray-paints graffiti or shoplifts a six-pack when he's seventeen, versus a military officer formally trained as a fighter pilot who goes AWOL when he's twenty-something.

[George Washington]

The next morning the old gentleman finding out what had befallen his tree, which, by the by, was a great favourite, came into the house, and with much warmth asked for the mischievous author, declaring at the same time, that he would not have taken five guineas for his tree. Nobody could tell him any thing about it. Presently George and his hatchet made their appearance. George, said his father, do you know who killed that beautiful little cherry-tree yonder in the garden? This was a tough question; and George staggered under it for a moment; but quickly recovered himself: and looking at his father, with the sweet face of youth brightened with the inexpressible charm of all-conquering truth, he bravely cried out, "I can't tell a lie, Pa; you know I can't tell a lie. I did cut it with my hatchet."--Run to my arms, you dearest boy, cried his father in transports, run to my arms; glad am I, George, that you killed my tree; for you have paid me for it a thousand fold. Such an act of heroism in my son, is more worth than a thousand trees, though blossomed with silver, and their fruits of purest gold.

[xray]

Steve: I'm sure you made a similar defence of Clinton when he was accused of draft dodging.

[Fossil]

"People... would casually mime taking a hit and pass the joint on to avoid creating a scene. Can any of you fossils tell me if this really happened?"

Could happen, but anybody who pulled that kind of stunt would have been suspected of being a cop or some kind of informer. One way of vetting people in the "smoking circle" was to see them take a full toke. The notion, probably incorrect, was that cops couldn't imbibe. Failure to enhale, and particularly to pretend to, would be a sure way to cast a shadow on oneself.

Either way, Clinton was bs-ing somebody, either his pals back then or us 20-some years later. Personally, I think it was us.

[SteveInClearwater]

Yeah, Jennifer, and imagine the taste of all that Mideastern spice on that CPSPI weinie....On second thought, DON'T

ughhhhhhhhh

[HH]

Libertarians need to take Kerry on for his knowing joke during "Puff the Magic Dragon" about smoking marijuana. It's clear this man had some in his time. So would he have locked himself up?

Oh, never mind that silly drug war issue... BUSH LIED!!! DRAFT DODGER!!! VIETNAM!!!

[Les]

HH, we should ask Bush the same question, don't you think?

[Jennifer]

Someone has said that the thing about Bush getting the Bin Ladens out of the country on September 12 is only a rumor. I hope that is true, but this doesn't change the fact that Bush had the words "Saudi Arabia" were removed from that terrorism report put out by the state department. Bush is putting loyalty to his oil buddies over loyalty to the country, which makes him a traitor. And since this is wartime (his words, not mine), doesn't that make him eligible for execution?

All this time people have criticized Bush for being a lousy public speaker, but no wonder! I couldn't talk very clearly either, if my mouth were occupied sucking the collective penis of the Saudi petrochemical industry.

[HH]

"HH, we should ask Bush the same question, don't you think?"

Yes and it was asked and is continually asked since 2000. Doesn't inoculate Kerry.