Freemasons, Trilateral Commission Snubbed

New at Reason: Malaysian philosopher/king Mahathir Mohamad wants Muslims to become crafty like the you-know-whos. Is it a sign of progress that he's admitting there's a problem? Jeff Taylor theorizes.

Comments

[John]

That's silly to suggest that Jews run the world.

My cat runs the world. Just ask her, she will tell you.

[Todd Fletcher]

Like this?
"Who runs the world?"
"ME-ow"

[Ruthless]

About 10 years ago. I can't remember exactly. I was teaching English--as a volunteer-- to a variety of pesky furriners in Cincinnati.
In this class was a spunky woman from one of the Soviet states over here making me look like I'm standing still, personal prosperity-wise. She had quickly established herself as an entrepeneur par excellance.
And there was a man and his wife from Kuwait in the class, getting the dole check from Kuwait over here.
I always did my best to get them stirred up... people think and talk better when they're stirred. The subject was economics.
Well, I was amazed to hear the former Communist sternly lecturing the Arab as if she were quoting from Wealth of Nations.
As I've pondered the incident, I've concluded US policy was anti-Communist because Communists were atheists, while the US was pro-Islam because they believed in Allah.
Trouble is, Islamists are and were the real economic Commies.

[nm156]

As a son of the widow, I am appalled that some people believe Jews control the world. Everyone knows that's us. I am in line to run Togo, come the revolution. But don't tell anyone. It's a secret. Wink wink

[David Tomlin]

Regarding "conspiracy theory", it is worth noting that Lord Acton and Edmund Burke thought there was a conspiracy behind the French Revolution.

[Rick Barton]

"yeah...its the media making muslim countries look bad..."

You obviously completely misunderstood my point here. I'll just add that, neither the very bad Sharon Regime nor, the really hideous governments of most Arab nations require media bias to make their true natures manifest.

"The "conspiratorial view of history" has its roots in anti-semantism."

Completely wrong! The first serious works of conspiracy analysis dealt with the conspiracies behind the French Revolution and did not even mention Jews. They include Augustin Barruel's four volume study, "Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism" (1799) and Professor John Robinson's "Proofs of a Conspiracy"(1798). These works were summarized and added too in "The French Revolution" by Nesta Webster (1919) which also did not mention the word "Jew". (Webster did address matters, Jewish, in other of her books and in her volume, "Secret Societies and Subversive Movements" she makes some unfair generalizations concerning Jews when she leaves conspiracy analysis for sociology, though her comments are more understandable (not correct though) given the date. Also, Webster received praise from Jewish Publications of the day for her analysis of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery. All of Websters books are interesting.)

[Kevin Carson]

joe schmoe,

If by "empirical truth" you mean empirical evidence that can unambiguously prove one sociological theory at the expense of another, I think you're seeking a higher level of certainty than the nature of the evidence permits. Arguments between elite theorists like Domhoff and pluralists like Bell involve alternative interpretations of many of the same pieces of evidence; you pick between them based on whose explanation makes the most sense.

If you can be satisfied with something less than absolute certainty, institutional elite theorists have certainly made a plausible case from empirical evidence. Domhoff, for instance, devoted an entire book to examining pluralist, structuralist Marxist, and state autonomist critiques of his previous writing, and then painstakingly answering them all in light of heavily researched case studies (the origins of the Wagner Act, Social Security, and IMF among them). Check out "The Power Elite and the State."

[Larry Edelstein]

Hmm. The Malaysian PM makes a fantastically anti-Semitic speech - not his first, BTW - that recalls pernicious old stereotypes of a world Jewish conspiracy, and ultimately urges the 1.3 billion Muslims to "not be defeated" by a few million Jews, who, it turns out, invented democracy, human rights, Communism, the metric system, argon, and deep-dish pizza.

But the good news is that he's actually telling Muslims that they're going to have to better themselves through science, mathematics, Pilates, going to Burning Man, and the selling of unpasturized boutique cheeses! What good news!

Yay.

[joe schmoe]

Rick - I am hardly completely wrong, as the thesis that Jews secretly control the world is as old as the Greeks and Chrisitianity. Then we could move to Knights Templar, etc that pre-date the French Revolution.

Look, you can cherry pick all the examples you want. I admit not everyone who mentions a particular conspiciracy theory is anti-semantic. But you are a fool if you ignored that aspect of Conspricacy Theory, especially knowing full well the negative and anti-libertarian consquences of it.

Historical events are the outcome of many individuals and groups chasing their own interests, crisscrossing one another's efforts; canceling, deflecting, or reinforcing one another's plans. Everyone has an impact, great or small, but no one is in control.

Conspiracy Theory claims that someone (or ones) is in control, which inherently collectivist as well as simplistic reductionism. We shouldn't need such nonsense to intellegently critique society. And we should beware those that enspouse it.

[joe schmoe]

Kevin -- I agree some of the theories are plausible, I am just not convinced. Don't have time to go into it anymore, but my point remains that such views are far from established fact for most people, including myself, and it ain't just because the non-believers are stupid - or part of the conspiracy.

I would say you have a rather romantic view of the "elite" who are just as powerless (human) most of the time as you and me. There are better paths to understanding human nature and improving life on this dirtball than cultivating collectivist fantasies of superhuman elite.

[Rick Barton]

David Tomlin,

Thats really interesting about Lord Acton and Edmund Burke. I wanna check it out. I know George Washington promoted the John Robison volume, I mentioned before.( Thats the correct spelling, not the: Robinson in that post ,sorry)

[Rick Barton]

Muslims run and RUIN the world through Muslim control of oil. They use the big oil companies as proxys to do Muslim bidding and take the heat for Muslim greed. Muslims have also engineerd a population explosion with any eye toward fundementalist Muslim demographic control of....

The preceding is, of course, silly and unfair; a lot like Mahathir Mohamad's claims.

Much in the political world goes on via conspiracy. What's really bad about racial and religious group conspiracy "theories' such as Mahathir Mohamad's, is that they unfairly put valid and important political conspiracy theories, concerning ruling elites, in in bad light. Note the reference to the Trilateral commission in the title of this thread.

Calling a conspiracy "Jewish" is to assume a uniformity of opinion and motivation among Jews that is belied by the evidence. Even conspiracies in support of the Israeli government for instance, can't be called "Jewish". In the book "The Mossad" by Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan and Eli Landau, the authors provide evidence of the Israeli government tactic of getting people with assumed allegiance to their native nation but with real loyalty to the Israeli government in positions of power in various nations. We may have seen this dynamic played out in the case of Richard Perle, the man at the nexus of so many neo-con "pro-democracy" organizations that have a long history of advocating an attack on Iraq. In 1970, while working for Sen. "Scoop" Jackson's office, Perle was caught on a NSA wiretap giving classified information to the Israeli Embassy.
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
But, is it fair to call conspiracies for the benefit of the Israeli government "Jewish"? The three who wrote "The Mossad" exposing this tactic are all Jews. Both inside and outside Israel, opinion and political activism among Jews includes
dedicated opposition to both the Israeli government and its supporters such as the neo-cons. An example of this Jewish opposition is Seymour Hersh, who has a piece cited for a seperate thread. So, obviously, the idea of a "Jewish conspiracy", even when referencing Israel, can never be correct and is always unfair.

[Rick Barton]

Kevin Carson,

I think we need to engage in conspiracy analysis to understand political power. We need to ask the question; who benefits? I like Rothbard's extension of common sense volitional analysis from small political situations to things like entry into war, the creation of the Fed. etc.

[Xmas]

I find it amusing how it is basic human nature to revile close knit social organizations that help each other succeed financially.

[Rick Barton]

To answer one of Mahathir Mohamad's points: Sure, conspiracies go on in the media to make Israel look good and Arab nations look bad. But, even if these are carried out exclusivley under the control of people who are Jews, they can no more be justly called "Jewish" conspiracies then similar but opposite efforts that I imagine go on at "Arab TV" can be called "Arab" or "Muslim" conspiracies. The concept of ANY ethnic or religious conspiracy never works.

[Rick Barton]

Jews and Political Power:

People that are Jews have been, in different episodes through out history, hand maidens to political power (See: "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" by Israel Shahak) and in power themselves. Naturally, in these positions they have engaged in political conspiracy. Its probably accurate to say that that, per capita, Jews have been over represented in these activities, but it's also probably accurate to say that, per capita, Jews have been over represented in the opposition to political power. A tragic confusion can ensue when Jews in general are confused with those in proximity to political power by the opposition to power. This has often been a tragedy of an ironic nature as Jews have often been victims of political power and it's conspiratorial machinations.

[joe schmoe]

They are not just "confused with those in proximity to political power" but are usually directly targeted.

They have been the scapegoat of choice for thousands of years. And they have rarely had any political power, hence the desirabilty of blaming them. Saying that people have been targeted as victims because they are often defenseless is more than "ironic tragedy."

This is the same as saying that since some blacks are stupid or lazy it is just ironic tragey that some people are just confused and think all blacks are stupid an lazy. They are just confused, don't blame them!

I really hope you just cut and pasted that.

[Rick Barton]

They are directly targeted for the reason that they ARE confused with those in proximity to political power.

"I really hope you just cut and pasted that"

Nope, I would have given attribution if I did.

[David Tomlin]

There was anti-semitism 5000 years ago? I guess you mean those cuneiform tablets warning about Akkadian conspiracies?

[David Tomlin]

For Burke see (of course) Reflections on the Revolution in France. I don't have a cite for Lord Acton offhand.

[joe schmoe]

yeah...its the media making muslim countries look bad, women are also stoned to death in Isreal and Jews target and blow up busses filled with todlers, the media just hides it...

never mind that the whole concept of "conspiricy theory" has ALWAYS been a front for anti-semitism, lets be a good Rothbardian and pretend that they they are really talking about the "elites"...

[Ruthless]

Rabbi Schmoe,
Let's take what you said one step further and say conspiracy theories are convenient rhetorical devices for demagogues.
And for an alleged conspiracy, you need a smallish, cohesive group: either Jews or the elite or the rich.
Goes back to my calling Islamists mostly commies.

[joe]

"the whole concept of "conspiricy theory" has ALWAYS been a front for anti-semitism"

Huh? Kennedy assassination, UFOs, Air America - there are lots of conspiracy theories that have nothing at all to do with The Jews.

[Rick Barton]

joe schmoe,
By "confused", I was thinking in terms of: "because of being Led astray by by the malicious." Also, I would be impressed if you showed as much concern for the suffering of innocents when they happen to be Palestinian innocents.

David Tomlin,
Thanks for the Burke citation. Hmmm, maybe the cuneiform tablets warning about Akkadian conspiracies were written by Sumerians, a non-semitic people.

[David Tomlin]

. . . the thesis that Jews secretly control the world is as old as the Greeks and Christianity.

Cite?

Then we could move on to Knights Templar . . .

What about the Templars?

[Kevin Carson]

rabbi schmoe,

"there is a difference between speculating on different events (as per your examples) and grand-unifed conspiricy theories."

You are using the term "conspiracy theory" in a far different sense from most of the people who reflexively squeal "conspiracy theory" or "tinfoil hat" every time someone suggests ulterior motives behind government policy. For the most part, they don't even define "conspiracy": it's just a verbal reflex for stopping conversation.

Your reference to "Rothbardians" as conspiracy theorists, in the sense of positing a "grand unified conspiracy theory," was entirely erroneous.

To the extent that Rothbard saw the corporate state as dominated by an elite, he was much closer to the institutional elite theories of C. Wright Mills and G. William Domhoff, or to the corporate liberal theories of James Weinstein and Gabriel Kolko, than to people who think the Bavarian Illuminati control the world.

There is a vast difference between institutional elite theory and the kind of conspiracism you find in "The Spotlight." The latter take, as the primary motive force of history, personal cabals united by some esoteric or gratuitously evil ideology; and they may well have grown out of anti-semitic culture, historically.

Now, the concentration of political and economic power in the control of small, interlocking institutions, is indeed likely to result in informal personal ties between the elites who manage them, and therefore to have as its side-effect sporadic conspiracies (Stinnett's Day of Deceit theory of Pearl Harbor is a leading example).

But such conspiracy is not necessary to the working of the system--it simply occurs as a secondary phenomenon, and occasionally speeds up or intensifies processes that happen for the most part automatically as a result of the institutional structure of the corporatist economy. Although forums like the CFR are excellent proxies for the foreign policy elite, and some informal networking and coordination of policy no doubt get done through them, they are essentially secondary organizations, whose membership are ex officio representatives of the major institutions regulating national life. The primary phenomenon is the institutional concentration of power that brings such people into contact with each other in their official capacities.

Your clarification quoted at the head of this post actually showed some discriminating thought. I wished you'd used some of the same when making your gratuitous slur of Rothbard.

[joe schmoe]

Kevin -- I don't think they are the same, but they are similar in their simplistic reductionism, which can be dangerous.

You should realize that your theory, along with Rothbard's, are far from empirical truth. But such theories are often distorted as further "proof" of grand-unifed conspiricy theories, a trap many libertarians come dangerous close to falling into.

But really I am more disgusted by the blind ignorence of the dangers (and inherent statism) of anti-semitism that some here choose to hold.

[suly]

knights templars,Freemasons are all the same thing. The freemasons control the world. A large part of the freemasons are jews.A hell of a large part. If you dont believe me look around your area i gaurantee you will find a freemason hall around where you live.

[suly]

knights templars,Freemasons are all the same thing. The freemasons control the world. A large part of the freemasons are jews.A hell of a large part. If you dont believe me look around your area i gaurantee you will find a freemason hall around where you live.

[Birnbaum Daniel]

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Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.

[Rheinfrank Todd]

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What else can i say after all this ?!