A Reason To Like Dean…

He's been attacked by Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-R.I.) for not being totally draconian regarding gun control. Sez the WashPost:

Rep. Patrick J. Kennedy (D-R.I.) scolded Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean for his friendly relations with the National Rifle Association during a Capitol Hill rally last week to drum up support for renewal -- and strengthening -- of the federal ban on assault weapons.

While other speakers stuck to the subject of assault weapons, Kennedy assailed Dean, saying he was "saddened" that one of his party's leading presidential candidates is "pro-NRA." He suggested that Dean has "compromised his principles" as a physician by opposing stronger federal gun controls.

What would a politically calculated outburst by a Kennedy be without the inevitable invocation of tragic family history? Continued the one-time cocaine and alcohol abuser:

"This is a personal issue with me, and I'm very disturbed at the fact that people are not paying attention to Dr. Dean's record" on guns, said Kennedy, nephew of President John F. Kennedy and his brother Robert, both of whom were assassinated by guns.

The Dean campaign's reply:

Dean spokeswoman Patricia Enright said Dean supports renewal of the 1994 law banning manufacture, transfer and possession of certain kinds of assault weapons but has not addressed whether the law should be strengthened, as many gun control supporters advocate. Dean has said new gun controls should be set at the state level.

Comments

[Don]

"It is one of the grand political truths that local politicians tend to become more beholden to their particular party's ideology when and if they reach the national level. If memory serves, Al Gore was "pro-gun" as a Tennessee state politician, but quickly signed onto gun control when he hit the federal stage."

Clinton worked on getting a good NRA rating as a state level politician.

[Don]

Joe wrote: "Man, the communists made some pretty wild bullets."

Joe, the communist pulled the trigger. The bullets were a mix of domestic hunting ammo (SPs, made by Remington IIRC) and Italian military ammo (FMJs), all in Italian 6.5 mm. The famous "majic bullet" was FMJ. It didn't deform much, since the slow, heavily constructed Italian 6.5 mm FMJ bullets tend not to deform much. And the path it took through the two men is perfectly reasonalbe (per the reconstructions I've seen) if you consider the angles of the men at the time the shot was fired (i.e., they were not sitting bolt upright). In other words, no majic was neccessary, no multiple shooters, no funky theorys.

[joe]

OK, the NRA has come out in favor of owning hollow points, dum-dums, and teflon-coated bullets. Exactly what would the rank and file like them to become more extreme on?

[MathWhiz]

debating joe is fun but boring. really simple formula:

Group/person/policy = PC = Bad (Percieved as Conservative)

Group/person/policy = PL = Good (Percieved as Liberal)

Critial of XXX, PL = Bad

Critial of XXX, PC = Good

Really easy to calculate:
Arnie = PC = Bad
FDR/New Deal = PL = Good
Critical of Kennedys, PL = Bad
Critical of NRA, PC = Good

See how fun it is! Now go back to filling in the formulas....

[joe]

So MathWhiz has a big bag of smartass and nothing really to add. Anyone else?

[Mark S.]

"But the crap that gets thrown at him and his family here goes way beyond what any other liberal Democrat gets."

So all his total disregard for the Bill Of Rights (at least the amdements that the special interests who fund his re-election bids dislike) and his disire to loot our wallets to buy votes from moochers and other parasites... opps, I mean to fund "social welfare" programs... has nothing to do with it?

[joe]

Mark, you say that about every liberal Dem. On policy, he's pretty much a mainstream Democrat. But Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Barbara Boxer and Daniel Inoye don't seem to churn up the same degree of bile.

The only liberal office holders who get dumped on the same degree are Bill and Hill, who supported the death penalty, deficit reduction, capital gains tax cuts and welfare reform. So I don't buy the argument that it's his politics.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I think Joe's role is to act as contrarian to work up the lib faithful. More power to you. Dare to be different.

The primary problem I have with the Kennedys is that they are perceived as a "dynasty". Excuse me. I didn't know that our system of government was founded on aristocracy. I thought that common people were to serve temporarily, and then go back to a private life. I didn't know that, by blood, a person has a "divine right" to govern.

And, yes, the same goes for the "Bush dynasty".

[Laura in DC]

In response to Thorley's claim that Vermont's spending tripled under Dean:

I don't know if that is true or not. It may be. But part of the reason the state's spending increased so much was that the state supreme court threw a bombshell by ruling that Vermont's reliance on local property taxes to fund schools was against the state's constitution because it denied equal protection since some schools had a lot more money per student to spend than others. So Dean and the Vermont legislature had to institute a statewide school funding mechanism so that the schools would be funded more equally.

In addition, even if state spending did triple, Dean managed to do that without ever raising taxes. In fact, he cut the income tax twice, eliminated the sales tax on clothes, and paid down a quarter of the state's debt. He often fought with the liberals in the legislature who wanted to spend more rather than balance the budget (Vermont is the only state in the Union without a constitutional requirement for a balanced budget). He made balancing the budget and paying down the debt a priority. So I think he has a fiscal record to be proud of, and he is certainly not a "tax and spend liberal."

[thoreau]

Aw, Laura, why do you have to go and ruin our favorite myth? Democrats are always the bad guys on government spending and Republicans are always the good guys.

Now we have to recognize that maybe the world is more complicated than "Republican Good! Democrat Bad!"

Way to ruin our fun.... 🙁

[joe]

Nice Guy, the Tafts, the Rockefellars, the Cuomos, the Tennessee Harold Fords, the Gores - none of them get anything close to the bile heaved on the Kennedys.

I still say it's the "You're either with us, or with the terrorists/communists/Other" mentality. His sin is his successful opposition to conservative domination.

[$.02 Spender]

Re Dynasty:

I think the problem with the Clintons and the Kennedys is due to the president trying to get their families (wives/brothers) into the act. A father/son relationship doesn't seem to annoy most people as much as having your wife set up universal healthcare, or having your brother the AG.

Even with Reagan, Nancy is seen as the bad guy (actually bug-out Ron is also a bad guy in my circle, but we're just weirdo genxers)

[Sebastian]

"owning hollow points, dum-dums, and teflon-coated bullets. Exactly what would the rank and file like them to become more extreme on?"

Obviously you don't know much about firearms or ammunition.... or the reasons the NRA has defended these items. Hollow point ammunition is common for hunting purposes and self-defense. The reasons are various, and it's worthwhile to point out that hollow point ammo is not necessarily more deadly than FMJ (since it takes fewer shots to incapacitate, and is less likely to overpenetrate and hit innocents).

The teflon coated bullet fiasco came about because Congress attempted to ban ANY ammunition that could penetrate a bullet proof vest. This includes just about any rifle cartridge. Teflon coating also doesn't confer any particular armor peircing characteristic. It was mainly a method to allow a steel penetrator to move down the barrel without damaging it. Once the language was changed to more narrowly ban only certain types of 'armor piercing' ammunition, the NRA dropped its opposition.

[joe]

Bill was acused of spying for the Russians and smuggling cocaine, and Hill of being a lesbian/nympho/witch, before they even took office.

And how much crap to the Hutchinson bros. get?

Nope, not buying it.

[Elmo]

"Bill was acused of spying for the Russians and smuggling cocaine, and Hill of being a lesbian/nympho/witch, before they even took office."

I saw the movie 'The Manchurian Candidate' in a different light after the Bill and Hill show hit DC. Hillary and Bill fit the Jessica Lansbury and venal politician husband roles wonderfully. To bad they could never get Socks to respond to the Queen of Hearts card or they'ed have really had something.....

[joe]

Seb, you didn't answer the question: the NRA has been on the anti-gun control side of even the most slam dunk proposals. What exactly would this allegely frustrated rank and file like to see them be more extreme on?

[excitableboy]

As for Kennedy's remarks: The only "tragedy" is that someone hadn't come along and wiped out every single member of his degenerate family long before they ever allowed to obtain political power.
Sorry, Mark S-- I'm all for wild and wooly political argument, but when you advocate murder I must protest.
After all, Lenin felt the same way about the Tsar.

[Sebastian]

"What exactly would this allegely frustrated rank and file like to see them be more extreme on?"

Well, I for one would like to be able to get post '86 NFA weapons. The NRA, for the most part, hasn't done much for machine gun collectors. A lot really can't stand the Brady act, or the fact that permits are required to carry concealed weapons.

Generally I don't fault the NRA too much. These issues are too far outside the mainstream to go after without seeming kookish. I don't expect to take back all that's been lost in one fell swoop.

[Sandy]

This is one of the reasons Dean has been my favorite so far to replace Bush. Hopefully we could actually get a liberal who will do some liberal things that libertarians like, as opposed to Al Gore, who did conservative and liberal things that libertarians hate, and nothing they like. Dean has proved that he is willing to think for himself even when it's not politically expedient. There's even a chance that he sticks to his principles. A chance.

Plus a Democrat in the White House may inspire a little fiscal responsibility among Republicans in congress, so really it's win-win.

[Thorley Winston]

Plus a Democrat in the White House may inspire a little fiscal responsibility among Republicans in congress, so really it's win-win.

Hate to break the news to you but while Dean was governor of VT he tripled State spending. So much for his vaunted "fiscal conservatism." He's also pretty big on wealth redistribution.

Also he did a 180 on raising the retirement age for Medicare and has been pretty vocally opposed to any form of entitlement reform while Bush at least has consistently favored letting workers opt at least partially out by investing a portion of theif FICA dollars.

Bush certainly deserves to be criticized for over-spending and growing the federal government too much but it's laughable to think any of the Ten Pins running to replace him wouldn't have grown it even more. At least Bush still is pushing for some market-oriented entitlement reforms, holding the line on taxes, while making some sensible regulatory reforms and pushing for tort reform.

Considering also the lack of any credibility of the Democratic candidates on foreign policy and in waging the War on Terror (whose views range from "do what Bush did while attacking him" to "do nothing without the permission of France and the UN" to "figure out a way to appease those who hate us") - there is no good reason to vote for any Democrat.

[amr]

"Assasinated by guns" is so unintentionally hilarious... Rep. Kennedy, please stop using your family's tragedies as stand-up material.

[Ira Weatheral]

I think Sandy's point is that a Dem president would cause the Rep congress to close it's pursestrings so the president wouldn't get good press.

[joe]

Wow, an actual moderate on gun control. A lot of political groups have leaderships that are a lot more exteme than the rank and file. I suspect this is true of the NRA.

[Thorley Winston]

"Assasinated by guns" is so unintentionally hilarious... Rep. Kennedy, please stop using your family's tragedies as stand-up material.

Since Representative Kennedy's uncle John F Kennedy was assassinated by a communist, wouldn't it make more sense for him to be an anti-communist rather than being against a morally neutral tool like a firearm? In which case he should still be anti-Dean but rather for the latter's support by the Marxist pro-appeasement groups who opposed the Iraqi liberation.

[Thorley Winston]

Last comment was TiC 😉

[Xmas]

Well, Patrick Kennedy is still Anti-Castro.

🙂

http://www.house.gov/patrickkennedy/com_990319.html

[joe]

Man, the communists made some pretty wild bullets.

[Thorley Winston]

Speaking of Fidel, why haven't we taken him out yet? It was one thing to tolerate him while he had the backing of the Soviet Union but post-Cold War there is really nothing preventing us from declaring the Western Hemisphere to be "communist free" and removing that despot once and for all. It's a disgrace to leave the tryant and the embargo in place when it would be relatively easy to liberate Cuba.

[Larry]

?A lot of political groups have leaderships that are a lot more extreme than the rank and file. I suspect this is true of the NRA.?

As an instructor (hunter education, NRA, concealed handgun) and an officer in a couple of clubs, one local and one Texas-wide, I meet a lot of gun owners and a lot of NRA members. The primary complaint I hear about the NRA is that they aren?t radical enough.

[joe]

OK, Texas and Idaho notwithstanding...

Thorley, even by the calculus that justifies the Iraqi invasion, the harm of leaving Fidel in power is far outweighed by the harm our actions to topple him would cause.

[Russ]

"Since Representative Kennedy's uncle John F Kennedy was assassinated by a communist..."

Oh, I get it... so "communist" is the "C" in "CIA".

[Kevin Carson]

joe,

I don't know about anybody else, but for me it's a reaction to the whole, cloying "Camelot" thing, and the mindless "America's royal family" bullshit. If I lived in England, I'd be doing my utmost to cashier that whole inbred gaggle of Windsor parasites. Why would I want their ilk over here?

On gun control, the NRA is pretty tame. I certainly don't want to enforce any "existing laws," and that "law-abiding" crap makes me wanna puke. If you think their gun lobby lite act is extreme, check out Gun Owners of America.

[Frenk]

I never got it why a "liberal" would be against guns, anyway. The old argument that the laws currently on the books, if enforced, would address most of the problem seems to still be accurate.

Plus, more hunting (with guns) might help the giant timber rat (a.k.a., white-tail deer) problem in the Midwest.

[Kevin Carson]

And to balance out my anti-Kennedy vitriol, I'd like to add that this Plame thing is really cracking me up.

From 9-11 until the U.S.S. Lincoln stage show last May, Bush finally got his wish of proving to the Old Man that he wasn't really the "worthless son," after all. "See, Dad? I finished a war you couldn't! Guess I'm not just a drunken, towel-snapping frat boy who's been bailed out of one Chapter 11 after another, after all, huh?"

There's a good chance this Plame business, along with a bunch of other stuff, will cause Dumb W. Ass to be a one-termer, held in more widespread contempt than any ex-president since Jimmy Carter. If so, the whole Bush family network, including the Abrams-Negroponte-Armitage axis of Iran-Contra mafiosi, Haliburton, and the Carlyle group, will be in permanent political exile. They'll spit every time Junior's name is mentioned. When Bush came close to losing Florida on election night, the family barely spoke to Jeb. What do you think they'll do to Dumb W. Ass, under these circumstances?

Maybe he'll end the shame by doing the honorable thing, but I wouldn't count on it. What a worthless, walking piece of shit.

[Mark S.]

It is one of the grand political truths that local politicians tend to become more beholden to their particular party's ideology when and if they reach the national level. If memory serves, Al Gore was "pro-gun" as a Tennessee state politician, but quickly signed onto gun control when he hit the federal stage.

Dean was the former governor of Vermont, a state where it's residents can carry a firearm openly. Unless I'm mistaken, Dean did little if anything to change that. Now the Dems trying to tighten the leash to keep him in line on the issue and Dean has responded, not by telling them to go commit an indecent act with themselves, but to lukewarmly proclaim his support for "state" gun laws. However, being the cynic that I am, it wouldn't surprise me if he would start calling for tougher federal laws if he gets presidential power.

As for Kennedy's remarks: The only "tragedy" is that someone hadn't come along and wiped out every single member of his degenerate family long before they ever allowed to obtain political power.

[Evan McElravy]

>>OK, Texas and Idaho notwithstanding...

[Kevin Carson]

Wasn't one of the idiot Kennedy nephews "assassinated" by a tree a few years back?

And Patrick's the one with the missing leg, right? I keep hoping he'll get involved in a sex scandal so Jon Stewart can say, "Well, at least he still has two good legs."

[Ira Weatheral]

To Thorley: I think having a live example of failed communism is keeping other communist okooks from appearing on the international scene.

I guess it's sorta like keeping a museum at Auschwitz. Or a historical edutainment place like Colonial Williamburg.

[Anonymous]

Kennedys should be banned from owning golf clubs- could be used for murder

[joe]

It's funny how moony-eyed Kennedy infatuation has pretty much run its course, even in Massachusetts, while the vitriolic Kennedy hatred it spawned just keeps rolling along strong as ever. I like Teddy because he's a good senator, but no more than a dozen other top Democrats. But the crap that gets thrown at him and his family here goes way beyond what any other liberal Democrat gets.

I think it's the Republican Clinton disease: no crime is worse in the eyes of conservatives than being a legitimate threat to their power. And Teddy's been sticking it up your ass for thirty years.

[Don]

Joe wrote: "Wow, an actual moderate on gun control. A lot of political groups have leaderships that are a lot more exteme than the rank and file. I suspect this is true of the NRA."

No Joe, not true. The NRA rank and file tends to be more radical than the leadership. Take this, from a rank and file member who finds himself defending the NRA against charges of being too willing to compromise. By the way, historically the NRA was more interested in target shooting and getting along with politicians. The NRA became more "radical" (gained back bone in defending gun ownership, IMO) due to the pull of the rank and file who thought the NRA should fight gun control first and formost. Some experiences the NRA had with nasty politicians probably also pushed NRA towards more activism.

[Thorley Winston]

I don't know if that is true or not. It may be.

It is. The State budget of Vermont rose from $662 million in 1991 to $1.8 billion in 2002 while Howard Dean was governor which is roughly three times what it started from.

But part of the reason the state's spending increased so much was that the state supreme court threw a bombshell by ruling that Vermont's reliance on local property taxes to fund schools was against the state's constitution because it denied equal protection since some schools had a lot more money per student to spend than others. So Dean and the Vermont legislature had to institute a statewide school funding mechanism so that the schools would be funded more equally.

And if Howard Dean were a candidate who favored impeaching judicial activists rather than appointing them to the bench (such as the judges who ruled in Brigham vs. Vermont), then this might pass the giggle test. Dean cannot get away with trying to blame it on a court which does not have the power to levy so much as a dime in taxes. The fact is that Dean while governor pushed for a number of new spending proposals from socialized medicine to taxpayer-subsidized day care to a huge increase in the K-12 government school monopoly which account for the increase in State spending.

In addition, even if state spending did triple, Dean managed to do that without ever raising taxes.

That is simply a lie. While he was governor, Howard Dean pushed for a hike in the cigarette tax of an extra $0.67 a pack (he got less IIRC), increased the State sales tax from 4 to 5 percent, pushed through a huge increase in property taxes, as well as increases in corporate, hotel, and meal taxes.

In fact, he cut the income tax twice,

This is misleading. The first income tax ?cut? was actually when he allowed a ?temporary? income tax hikes to expire as scheduled in 1994.

eliminated the sales tax on clothes

Only for some articles of clothing (under $110 IIRC) but he also raised the overall sales tax for everything else.

and paid down a quarter of the state's debt.

While at the same time pushing for new spending initiatives.

He often fought with the liberals in the legislature who wanted to spend more rather than balance the budget (Vermont is the only state in the Union without a constitutional requirement for a balanced budget). He made balancing the budget and paying down the debt a priority. So I think he has a fiscal record to be proud of, and he is certainly not a "tax and spend liberal."

Actually everything in his record indicates he is exactly that. The fact is that while he was governor, spending nearly tripled. He enacted a number of costly social welfare programs for health care, child care subsidies, and education while enacting huge increases in property, sales, and excise taxes while much of his income tax ?cuts? were merely letting a temporary tax increase expire as scheduled. Vermont went from being a high tax State with a weak economy to being . . . a high tax State with a weak economy (even now they?re still trying to undo the damage he did with Prop 60). More damning to his presidential aspirations, he has done a 180 on his few prior positions which resemble being a fiscal conservative such as his flip-flop on phasing in a higher retirement age and his previous support of reducing the rate of growth of Medicare spending. All of this and his support of higher taxes while campaigning to buy off the very same Democratic special interest groups who pushed for the spending increases which are causing our deficits today show that he would be worse than Bush on fiscal issues who has at least been consistent on supporting entitlement reform while holding the line on taxes.

[Thorley Winston]

Correction that should be Act 60 and not Prop 60.

[nm156]

C'mon Kevin, let it all out. You'll feel better if you tell us how you really feel.

[R C Dean]

"Seb, you didn't answer the question: the NRA has been on the anti-gun control side of even the most slam dunk proposals. What exactly would this allegely frustrated rank and file like to see them be more extreme on?"

Joe, as the explanation above about ammo shows, what you think are "slam-dunk" questions are generally policies recommended only by the ignorant and the prejudiced. I would include the "assault weapon" ban in this category.

How has the NRA gone soft? Well, there is their refusal to support a Second Amendment test case, and even to attempt to sabotage anyone else trying to bring such a case. There is their eventual acquiescence in most gun control legislation that has come out of Washington (an inevitable result of negotiating the bills, but try explaining that to the politically naive). That should do for starters.

[joe]

Good answers on why the NRA are sellouts. However, being insufficiently gun crazy for the H&R Shooters Club doesn't necessarily translate to being too soft for the average NRA member. I mean, "The NRA, for the most part, hasn't done much for machine gun collectors" hardly convinces me that rank and file NRA members share their frustration.

Kevin has the best answer on the Kennedy question, though given the near-royalist adoration of executive authority among much of the right, I hardly think his particular grudge can be widely applied. Perhaps the concept of Usurper comes into play?

[Sebastian]

"How has the NRA gone soft? Well, there is their refusal to support a Second Amendment test case"

I can hardly blame them for this. This is the wrong time, and the wrong case to take to the Supreme Court. A bad ruling now could screw us for generations.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200309230925.asp

That link is a good analysis explaining why

[Don]

Joe wrote: "Seb, you didn't answer the question: the NRA has been on the anti-gun control side of even the most slam dunk proposals. What exactly would this allegely frustrated rank and file like to see them be more extreme on?"

Joe, most of the things that you view as "slam dunk" proposals are fascist violations of American's rights.

Many NRA members (and quite a few non-members, who feel the NRA is too soft on gun control to be worth joining) argue that NRA hasn't taking a hard enough line on this issue or that, or failed to take this or that case to court. This includes the federal AW ban (which looks to sunset next year!), the two Cali AW bans, the '86 machine gun ban, etc., etc. IIRC, the last time the NRA took a pro ban side was back in '34, relating to NFA '34, when NRA preferred to ban machine guns rather than accept handgun legislation. The fact is, NRA has appeared "soft" to many on the pro-gun side. This has been argued mucho at gun ranges, on internet sites, letters to the editor, etc. It is very rare to hear a rank-and-file member claim that NRA is too hardline; it is very common to hear that NRA is too soft. The fact is, the rank-and-file is, if anything, quite a bit more radical than NRA.

Myself, I'm inclined to defend NRA. NRA works in the world of realpolitic, and has to take baby steps most of the time. That's hard for a lot of rank-and-file members to accept, when they are judging based upon principles and technical facts.

[Don]

"The teflon coated bullet fiasco came about because Congress attempted to ban ANY ammunition that could penetrate a bullet proof vest. This includes just about any rifle cartridge. Teflon coating also doesn't confer any particular armor peircing characteristic. It was mainly a method to allow a steel penetrator to move down the barrel without damaging it. Once the language was changed to more narrowly ban only certain types of 'armor piercing' ammunition, the NRA dropped its opposition."

Actually, the teflon coating was used for a different reason: it was found that AP bullets striking things like windshields at a sharp angle tended to glance off. The teflon coating was intended (and worked) to work kinda like a "sticky" to reduce the "glance off" tendency. However, the teflon actually reduced penetration when the bullet struck the target at a right angle. And, the teflon did not improve penetration in kelvar bullet-resistent vests under any circumstances.

The real key to AP bullets is the hard cores used, as you indicate. NRA basically wrote the bullet ban legislation that was passed, via its technical input. It was a compromise, since the original lagnuage of the proposed legislation would have banned quite a bit of rifle ammunition, basically anything like .223, .308, and many others that are used in several large, clumsy hunting handguns.

[celebs]

Great, Thanks celeb

[William wallace]

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32. Iraq conflict has killed 100,000 civilians: Lancet Study

http://expage.com/bushbusters7b

33. Under Reconstruction

http://expage.com/bushbusters7c

& http://expage.com/bushbusters7d

34. Did Bin Laden want George W. Bush to win?

http://expage.com/bushbusters8

35. So the Bastard is still alive

http://expage.com/bushbusters8a

& http://expage.com/bushbusters8b

36. Bush lied, our soldiers died

http://expage.com/bushbusters8c

37. Under Reconstruction

http://expage.com/bushbusters8d

38. I had a dream !

http://expage.com/dreamvi