Great Moments in Civic Journalism
From today's L.A. Times story about the City Council's unanimous crackdown on lapdancing:
Residents living near the adult clubs, however, were ecstatic.
"We couldn't be happier," said West Los Angeles resident Cristi Walden, who said she saw six adult businesses move into her neighborhood in the last 10 years, and complained that prostitution and public sex were destroying her quality of life.
Walden, an anti-strip club activist, was the only "resident living near the adult clubs" quoted.
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“prostitution and public sex were destroying her quality of life”
Then she should stop doing those things.
You make me laugh, LB.
‘Walden, an anti-strip club activist, was the only “resident living near the adult clubs” quoted.’
All of the links I followed are about actions she took in reference to her particular neighborhood. She’s a neighborhood activist, who knows the impacts on her home and neighbors better than than anyone here.
Joe —
Odd, that, since I’ve generally found the opinions of neighborhood activists to be entirely unrelated to those of actual inhabitants of the neighborhoods they are purported to represent. When is the last time a neighborhood activist asked you what you thought? Neighborhood busibodies are just unelected lobbyists, but without less accountability.
–G
I’m sure she doesn’t represent the contingent who want their kids to see hookers walking down the street.
I’ll still take her word over that of a political reporter.
Joe — *I* live near Los Angeles strip clubs (Cheetah’s, Jumbo’s Clown Room, buncha others), and I will not cede any advantage in knowledge to our Cristi, simply because she makes more noise about it than I do. Cheetah’s & Jumbo’s (friends tell me) are both basically friendly neighborhood bars, where the girls play in rock bands and maybe join you for a whiskey after their dance to talk about finding drummers & whatnot. Cheetah’s is actually next to the Children’s Hospital, a cool art gallery/bookstore, a U-Haul where illegal aliens shop for work, a fancy Salvation Army thrift store, an upscale steak restaurant, my Wells Fargo branch, one of the best movie theaters in the world (the Vista), and a regular Friday-afternoon protest against the Iraq war. I’ve seen absolutely positively zero evidence that it’s dragging the ‘hood down, and those I know who have gone there say it’s a fine, honest place.
But the real point of my post is the ridiculousness of the L.A. Times quoting ONE PERSON — who happens to be an anti-strip club activist — and concluding that “residents living near the adult clubs … are ecstatic.” Last night I was with four people from my neighborhood, and they were all appalled, not “ecstatic.”
Fine, there’s disagreement among the neighbors. Shame on her for claiming that there wasn’t.
How did you like having your opinion dismissed via the insinuation that your having a political position nullified your ability to speak as a neighborhood resident? Reread the last sentence of your post, because that is exactly what you did to Ms. Walden.
My GOD – I agree with joe!
“I’m sure she doesn’t represent the contingent who want their kids to see hookers walking down the street.”
Maybe some people don’t have kids? Maybe some people like seeing prostitues walk down the street? Maybe (gasp!) some people like to patronize prostitutes?
And maybe it’s not even true in the first place that these strip clubs even attracted prostitutes? And maybe it is, but echoing Welch, doesn’t seem like I should take this one person’s word for it.
Joe — Huh? I described her as what she was, providing an illustrative link, and did not “dismiss” her in any fashion whatsoever. My beef is not with her, but with the L.A. Times reporter (hence the headline of the post, and my explanatory comment above). You were the one who prejudged the quality of a person’s argument by his position (“I’ll still take her word over that of a political reporter”).
As for how that made me feel … uh, indifferent? Abstruse? Californian?
Funny, I didn’t get that impression at all. It looks to me more like a comment about the Times quoting only one resident as a representative sample. *I* would dismiss her as a prudish busybody, but that’s just me.
Or maybe not just me, since if all these businesses are moving into the neighborhood, some of the residents must be customers. Or are they busing the customers in from surrounding areas?
My comment was responding to Joe’s, but three more comments come in faster’n I can type…
“And maybe it’s not even true in the first place that these strip clubs even attracted prostitutes?”
Actually, there are some pretty good studies on the relationship between adult businesses and prostitution. Generally, a strip club does not lead to hookers walking the streets outside. However, the creation of a “red light district” does – just as the clustering of any category of commercial or industrial business will attract related businesses to the area, and foster an overall expansion of business in that field.
The answer is to spread ’em. Wide.
Heh.
Joe,
Hmmm, I interpret Matt’s words (at the end of his last post) as meaning that she doesn’t genuinely speak for everyone. Now sure, it’s human nature to say something like “We couldn’t be happier,” when that means you and your friends. She was just acting like any good partisan would, no big deal. But as Welch makes clear (to me, anyway), the target of his criticism is the paper, not Ms. Walden.
Guess I’d better refresh this thread before each post, as Matt defended himself before I got the chance!
Joe, as to spreading ’em wide….hmmm, where do those prostitutes go otherwise? Surely they just don’t disappear or pick a different career? Well anyway, there’s lots I could say on the subject, but I don’t want to lose my place in the postings! 🙂
Then why was it important to label her as an anti-strip club activist in that sentence? Especially since here activism doesn’t seem to extend beyond her neighborhood? And to provide the Google link? Of course he was trying to slime her.
‘I described her as what she was, providing an illustrative link, and did not “dismiss” her in any fashion whatsoever.’
What she was? A cat lover? An art curator? A mother? Nope, none of those make it look like she brings an outside agenda to the debate.
How about this, Matt? “Judge Johnson, who was once beaten up by a black student in grade school, sentenced Mr. Washington to the maximum term.” If you aren’t aware that adding in personal information about one of the figures to a factual story is a common spin technique, then you should be.
I hate to be slagging you like this, I’ve followed you since Tabloid.net. But come on.
Is that you Joe? I mean the “Joe” that usually posts as just “joe”? When did you, of all people, become a Republican? I’m spinning in my grave and I’m not even dead yet…
Shouldn’t you be supporting prostitutes and arguing nobody has the right to tell them what to do with their own bodies?
Who are you really?
I’m telling Joe.
Joe.
Joe — What she was as it relates to the subject matter under discussion. Which, in my world (but apparently not yours), is a relevant detail, especially when she is the only presented evidence of the reaction of “residents.”
If the Times had written that residents were “howling in outrage,” based on a single interview with Larry Flynt (or a strip-club owner), would it be “sliming” them to point this out? If Bush cut taxes by 10 percent across the board, and the Wall Street Journal wrote that “Americans were ecstatic,” and then only interviewed Milton Friedman, would it be sliming him to describe him as a “tax-cutting activist,” and provide a relevant Google link?
And to repeat myself one last time — the post criticizes the L.A. Times, not Cristi. My first-ever job was going door-to-door with anti-strip-club flyers, so I have a soft spot in my heart for female neighborhood anti-porn crusaders.
Joe,
I looked at the link, and in lieu of reading the actual articles listed there, I sure can’t tell how the link slimes Ms. Walden. Is there something bad about her in those articles?
OTOH, if she hasn’t campaigned anywhere but in her own neighborhood against strip clubs, I would agree that it’s not entirely fair to call her an “anti-strip club activist.” Nevertheless, Welch’s primary point, that it was not good journalism to quote her as if she were some random and therefore representitive resident, still holds. I mean, was it really coincidence that the paper quoted someone who was active in the issue? Somehow I doubt it.
Joe,
Your position is bankrupt. Several people have posted spelling out Matt’s position. I can’t see any reason in your last posts at all.
“What she was? A cat lover? An art curator? A mother? Nope, none of those make it look like she brings an outside agenda to the debate.”
Correct. The fact that she has an agenda relative to the topic at hand is relevant knowledge. The Google link simply supports the claim that she indeed has an “anti strip club” agenda (even if only locally). Identifying her as an activist neither “dismisses” or “slimes” her. Rather it calls into question her validity as a spokesman for the entire neighborhood.
the other joe,
Joe likely supports the rights of prostitutes to hawk their wares, but only WHERE city planners say so. Do I have that right, Joe?
Joe – it is legitimate + relevant to mention her stance. Read his argument thusly: “Prop: The LA Times story is biased. Proof: To support the author’s implied thesis, the story conjures a false fact (i.e. that the neighborhood residents are anti-stripper) by interviewing + quoting only anti-stripper activists. That the Times prints the comments of only ONE resident suggests: (1) the reporter is lazy; or (2) other quotes were omitted b/c they undermined the position asserted.
I blame it on the PATRIOT Act, and John Ashcroft.
Maybe that was a bit below the belt!
racist and idiot I can stand. but “republican” is really over the line.
<slime>”Cristi Walden”-doesn’t that sound like a stage name for a stripper?</slime>
1. I agree Matt’s charge against the paper is valid. I know he’s been slagging the LA Times for a long time, and he’s certainly caught them goosing the story. But adding the phrase “anti-strip club activist” and the link does nothing to advance this point. It’s obvious from Christi’s statement which side of the issue she’s on. By labelling her like that, it makes her appear to be a politically motivated, outside agitator. If the term had been “who led the neighborhood opposition to the strip clubs,” she would appear in a very different light.
2. “Joe likely supports the rights of prostitutes to hawk their wares, but only WHERE city planners say so. Do I have that right, Joe?” Yes, actually. Look at Nevada – safe, licensed bordellos are the way to go. The problems associated with street prostitution are the natural outcome of prohibition. But communities need to deal with reality.
3. Yes, other Joe, it’s me. Still think I sound like a Republican? Because I don’t see too many of them supporting the legalization of prostitution.
The ordinance of the City Council is taking populus of Los Angeles to dark ages.
We should know their NAMES thus next time around
we wont elect them and we should recall them.
The law or ordinence cannot be written by
a bunch of impotent self-proclaiming moral minority, fathers!
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DATE: 01/22/2004 01:14:35
To go to war with untrained people is tantamount to abandoning them.