RUF2C, FBI?

The FBI has been taking tips from young teens on how to emulate adolescent online lingo when snaring pedophiles. The image of stern agents being quizzed on Justin Timberlake by the Sweet Valley Twins is hilarious enough in itself, but I see potential for further hijinks. Anyone else remember the Times grunge hoax?

Comments

[Warren]

Oh yeah! This one has "hilarious unforeseen consequences" written all over it.

[Tom]

Showing my years here, but I'm reminded of how Hollywood tried to catch up on the 60s counterculture in its productions, always coming up a few years short (beatniks on the Beverly Hillbillies during the Summer of Love, etc.).

Then there was one particular Dragnet episode featuring hippies and LSD that still gives me nightmares. Jack Webb meets Flower Power. Shudders.

[dude]

That reminds me Tom, my grandpa used to rant about "hippies" with their "rock and roll" well into the 1980s. So I imagine some middle-aged guy typing something like this:

Britney r00lz LOL!!!1!

[Sean]

Don't forget the CHiPs punk rock episode. Slam dancing in the police locker room. "I...dig...pain"

[JDM]

Hank,

It all rests on the assumption that there are people who are dangerous and violent, and then there are people who are not dangerous and violent. This is especially true for sex offenders.

For your example, I would be more than happy to slam the cell door on anyone who got that far along in the process pedophilia. He's being arrested on reasonable suspicion and would be convicted (theoretically) because his actions prove beyond a reasonble doubt that he intended to commit the crime. Tough luck for him.

[David2]

I'm just waiting to see some news story of a 40-year old FBI agent posing as a 13-year old girl being arrested by some 40-year old state trooper posing to be a 20-year old in a "reverse sting" juvie operation. Can you imagine the embarassment?

[Anonymous]

Still sounds like thoughtcrime to me.

[Julian]

Well, if you take to its logical conclusion the rejection of all crimes of intent, you lose any distinction between Murder 1 and Manslaughter, the crime of attempted murder (the bullet missed, nobody was actually hurt...), and a whole bunch of others. That'd put the legal system in the perverse position of not being able to punish or incapacitate anyone except when it had already failed to prevent a crime. So if someone poisons my tea, but I notice before drinking it, there's nothing I can do but wait for the poisoner to try again. Once I'm dead, I can call the cops...

[JDM]

This on the other hand...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/919364.asp

[Russ]

No, Julian. If someone poisons your tea, they are guilty of poisoning your tea. The bullet may have missed, but it was still unlawful use of a gun.

The problem with the legal system is that it tries to "pile on" crimes with leaps of "logical conclusions". I may have 100 pounds of pot, but that does not mean I have any intent to distribute it (though that is often the additional crime for having such a large amount). I could be stockpiling to beat the price increase, just like buying 96 rolls of toilet paper.

So when 2 17-year olds are dating, is a crime committed when one of them turns 18 and then they have sex?

[Croesus]

Hank,

The requirement of the proper mens rea has been required by the law since, well, for a long damn time (criminal liability used to be simple "cause in fact" liability in medieval England for example). In general, without the proper mens rea, one cannot be convicted of the crime - which is why there are things like an insanity defense, or the intoxication defense ("See, my doctor prescribed this new drug, and it had this freaky side-effect, and I ended up killing my family and turning them into hamburger meat and steaks."). There are some strict liability exceptions (statutory rape is the most common example), but they aren't common in areas where one can go to prison. Anyway, its the jury that is supposed to be the mind reader, as they are supposed to assess the state of mind of the defendant, among other things.

[Anonymous]

pos! hehe 😀

[Franklin Harris]

I know a cop whose job is to pretend to be a 14-year-old girl online. How'd you like *that* on your resume?

[Anonymous]

All your terrorists are belong to us.

[Keith]

I was hoping H+R would pick up on the story so I could drop in the URL for "Teen Girl Squad!"

http://www.homestarrunner.com/tgs1.html

It's a Flash animation; turn up the sound.

[Cracker's boy.]

First...Let me get on the record here as saying pedophilia is bad.

Now...Let me ask. Why is it a crime when a 40 year old man pretends to be a 14 year old boy and chats with a 25 year old man who is pretending to be a 13 year old girl? Why is it a crime? The FBI agent knows he is really 25 and pretending to be 13. What if the 40 year old knows that he's talking to a 25 year old who's pretending to be 13? Maybe that's all the 40 year old wants to do...pretend to be talking to a 13 year old girl. Hell, they're both pretending to be something they aren't. Why isn't it a crime for a 25 year old man to pretend to be a 13 year old girl? Why does one go to jail and one gets a commendation?

Just curious....

[The Mountain Goat]

I'm more concerned about the three girls. Would you trust your daughter with some middle aged white guy who spends his time in internet chat rooms trying to pick up other guys?

[JDM]

Cracker,

There was a headline case where one of the founders of a dot com was let go using that same defence. He said that he could tell that cop he was talking dirty to wasn't really 13 by the way "she" acted. That seems quite perceptive for someone who couldn't tell the "she" was male, and a cop.

Does anyone know the legal history of beating a sting operation on Cracker's philosophical grounds? It would apply just as well to drug stings etc (A cop is never going to actually allow someone to pay for drugs, so the person isn't actually buying drugs. Is the crime to *try* to buy them?)

[Croesus]

JDM,

Well, you just treat like its an inchoate crime. In other words, if you are caught in a certain stage before a crime is actually committed, you can be arrested (though generally the jail time, etc. is less severe) for an attempt to commit that crime. For example, say X & Y talk about robbing a bank; now just talking about it is likely not going to qualify, however, if they go out and buy equipment, draw maps, etc., and are driving to the scene to the bank when they are caught, then they would likely be arrested and charged with an attempt to rob the bank. Of course these are two extremes along a continuum, and where something would fall out between these extremes would depend on the facts, what the judge ate that morning, what the jury's prejudices are, etc., but you get the picture. In the case of the on-line pedophile, his attempt should be enough to convict him, though the nature of said attempt, etc. would be the deciding factor. In other words, simply chatting with a 13 year old on-line is legal; asking her to meet you so you can have sex with her would not be.

[Croesus]

JDM,

Caveat: The legal test for what constitutes an inchoate crime (an attempt) differs from state to state; in some states its far easier to prove that such than in others. However, as the FBI (Mulder & Scully?) is involved here, this is likely an issue of federal criminal law, and I have no idea what sort of test they use.

[Cracker's boy.]

Croesus -

Again, I say, pedophilia is bad.

With that in mind, tho'...

Said "pedophile" ISN'T chatting with a 13 year old. He (or she... I guess women can be ped's too) is chatting with, and agreeing to meet, a 25 year old. Where's the crime?

Curiously,

Cracker's boy.

[Croesus]

Cracker,

The issue would be whether the acts of the individual arrested were far along to be considered a crime, even if said crime were actually impossible to commit the person he chatted with is a 30 year old FBI agent. Its similar to cases where an individual is offered non-existant drugs and offers to buy them. I know from an epistomological perspective this sounds wacko, but its not unusual to arrest and convict someone for trying to buy non-existant drugs.

[Chris Puzak]

Of course, no discussion of Hollywood trying to understand youth culture would be complete without the punk rock episode of Quincy "Why would anyone want to listen to music that makes you hate, when you can listen to music that makes you love?" Why, indeed?

[Croesus]

Chris Puzak,

*gag*

[Bill]

The text under the three girls picture states they are receiving a letter of communication from the FBI. Well,in a way they were communicating in their own way.

[Hank]

I think the question here is one of Intent. Did the perpetuator (or potential perp) intend to commit a crime? In the case of online pedophilia, did the perp intend to meet and have sex with a 13 yr old girl? Regardless if he was talking to a 30 yr old FBI agent. Did the perp intend to buy the drugs, regardless if they didn't exist?

I find this whole notion outrageous. Are law enforcement agencies psychic? How can one truly be incarcerated based on intent? What if you changed your mind. What if the pedophile, on his way to meet the "13 yr old" has an epiphany, realizes what he's doing is wrong, is about to turn around to go home when he's slammed to the ground cuffed by Agent Mulder? What was his intent then? To go home?

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I would like to learn more about all of this

[Sally]

I deeply apologize for all of my same comments appearing on the screen. I clicked on the "post" button, and the liitle hour glass did not show up. Because of that, I assumed that my comment had not been posting! Please excuse me for any inconvenience I might have caused. I'm still new at this.

Thank you,
Sally

[Blum David]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
IP: 82.146.43.155
URL: http://www.americanpaydayloans.net
DATE: 02/28/2004 07:37:27
Make it your guiding principle to do your best for others and to be trustworthy in what you say. Do not accept as friend anyone who is not as good as you. When you make a mistake do not be afraid of mending your ways.

[Bowman Rob]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
IP: 170.224.224.58
URL: http://preteen-sex.info
DATE: 05/21/2004 03:13:54
After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood.