Peaceniks, Terrorists, Whatever

"You can make an easy kind of a link that, if you have a protest group protesting a war where the cause that's being fought against is international terrorism, you might have terrorism at that [protest]," says Mike Van Winkle, a spokesman for California's Anti-Terrorism Information Center. "You can almost argue that a protest against that is a terrorist act."

Never fear, folks: He said "almost." Our freedoms are safe!

[Via Unqualified Offerings.]

Comments

[Lefty]

Anybody who pooh-poohs slippery slopes needs to take note.

"The center's analysts are building files on what he called "nontraditional criminal extremist groups," such as the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front.

"Some of the groups we're keeping intelligence on are those groups that mainstream people might not consider involved in violent activity," Van Winkle said. "How can releasing all these monkeys with viruses not put people in danger? And the reality is, some of the planned peaceful protests around the country have turned violent."

[PLC]

Lefty - if you don't think the ALF and ELF are terrorist organizations, than you are clearly ignorant.

[david f]

with names such as those? isn't one a cute space creature that has an affinity for felines? and the other, well i had a fourth level elf in D&D once. but a $^(*^(*$^ dwarf killed it.

and, PLC:

what about watching militias? groups that supported timothy mcviegh? "patriot" organizations (i'll tell you, the group near our summer home sure has a lot of the locals scared shitless)? National Right To Life, etc - a group that did refuse to condemn the killing of abortion doctors...

when prez. clinton the second jumps into power, she's gonna use PATRIOT etc. to go after those groups. it won't be a leap for govt prosecutors to take a pro "assult weapon meeting" and turn it into a "right wing, government hating armed mob".

finally, if a group or a group of individuals claiming to belong to some group like the ELF does commit some crime, of course the cops are gonna have a file on it. and any clues that pop up in the course of events can be added to the file. so: how much of this okland trib. article is a knee jerk overreaction (as i often do when it appears that the govt seems to be encroaching) to normal police work, and how much is the hysterical overreacting that many do when they see someone who looks like "a typical low life..." to quote Stripes.

drf

[trainwreck]

So this is the real legacy of the "Battle in Seattle."

All those anarchists who envision ecotopia in Cascadia can put that in their glass bongs (no longer available over the internet) and smoke it. They're probably still too busy reliving the glory of throwing a garbage can through a Starbucks window to think about the consequences of their actions.

The State will not tolerate violent protest. Period. It will use all means, constitutional or not, to crush violent protest.

All of the non-violent, action oriented groups will be implicated by the actions of the violent few, and heaped in the same trash bin.

What did the Battle of Seattle accomplish? Did it change international economic policy? Did it soften the hard heart of globalization?

No, it showed the State that people can still organize and oppose power, alerted the state to the means and methods of organization, and focused the attention of the state on every internet posting and email from someone or some group that might be considered subversive.

All because a few so-called radicals wanted to feel like they were really cool and subversive by smashing the windows at Nike, McDonalds and the Gap.

[JDM]

"What did the Battle of Seattle accomplish?"

Young imbeciles had fun smashing stuff.

[Dave]

Am I the only one who remembers the movie "Brazil" everytime I hear about the government's "anti-terrorism" activities?
Anyone up for some free-lance HVAC repair?

[josh]

Brazil...
Where hearts were entertaining June
We stood beneath an amber moon
And softly murmured someday soon...
We kissed...
And clung together
Then...
Tomorrow was another day
The morning found me miles away *
With still a million things to say
Now...
When twilight dims the skies above **
Recalling thrills of our love
There's one thing I'm certain of
Return...
I will...
to old...

[Josh]

oh, and by the way, glass bongs are too still available online. The remaining sites are raking it in, what with all the competition gone.

[PLC]

hey joe - perhaps you might want to consider doing a little research before you open your mouth. The ALF and ELK have injured many people and have actually killed a few. They are evil, scumbag terrorists, like or it or not.

[PLC]

So, joe - blowing up buildings, assaulting company executives, threatening employees, destroying property, rioting - all in order to intimidate those whose actions you disagree with is not terrorism? It is the very definition of terrorism. The ALF and ELF employ terror as a tactic in their insane quest to rid the earth of humanity.

[JDM]

PLC,

Terror = Bad.
ALF/ELF = Good.

How can the same word apply to both? Aren't you nuanced like our leftist friend?

[Lefty]

Those actions were illegal before 911 and were prosecuted as crimes, which they were.

Here's an article that outlines how the Patriot Act, in it's first year, is already being used for criminal, not anti-terror investigations.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2003%2F05%2F21%2FMN34108.DTL

[david f]

hey lefty!

exactly! that goes a good way in starting the ball rolling on the discussion, "how is the patriot act being used". similar to the argument used against the gun opponents: "the current laws are just fine". hey -- that link would be a good potential discussion here at hit and hide!

my wife works for a credit bureau, and the number of hoops they have to jump through post 9/11 is amazing. and nothing improves security or changes that the govt had legal right, via a warrant, to get certain info. she wonders if there's "sneak and peek" going on...

a family friend of ours emigrated to the us from iraq in 1973. their kids were born here, and the mom is the ultimate go-getter entrepreneurer. she is a total reaganite, optimist, positive nationalist -- she got six calls from various agencies asking for her opinion on the iraq war. she even got a call from the ins (her brother was, errr, "removed" from his position at the med school in iraq but he did get the job in 1977) to verify her passport number.

now she certainly is a meance behind the wheel, but if those are the efforts by law enforcement to make us safer, well.......

cheers,
drf

[PLC]

Lefty - what's your point? The article seemed to be saying that nothing egregious is actually happening...

[Lefty]

PLC - your argument can also be made for the police monitoring, keeping files and arresting anybody who has contributed to Citizens for Life, Greenpeace or the Libertarian Party. Probably even the Democratic Party since they support the Labor movement.

Anybody who has ever attended a rally for or against anything could be at risk since there are no comprehendible standards of what "terrorism", much less "supporting" it, actually is.

[Lefty]

PLC - I think that if a situation doesn't affect you directly you could care less about the point.

Nevertheless, my point is that the article points out about 50 non-terrorist criminal cases where Patriot is used to prosecute. The relaxed rules of evidence and the lack of a definition of terrorism in the Act invites the prosecutor to take shortcuts.

I don't think that's what the Patriot Act was intended for. Since you are snug into the status quo I don't think you should be concerned, though.

[Anonymous]

leftie suffers from moral relativisim. he cannot tell the difference between blowing shit up and peaceful activities. hence his support for ELF, palistinian terrorists, etc

[joe]

PLC's right, Lefty. Don't you remember that footage of the mass graves at the ELF compound? Oh wait, nevermind.

Not a single person has been killed by an ELF or ALF activity. The reason for this is the care they take to make sure that no one is endangered by their vandalism (the destruction of property). Yet, in a post accusing Lefty of moral relativism, the nameless poster draws no distinction between costing a company money (as ELF does), and slaughtering innocent people going about their business (as the Palestinian terrorists do). Pot. Kettle. Black.

What they do isn't right. But it isn't terrorism, either.

[Sean]

Yeah, cut the animal rights groups a break, they are only after intimidation and property damage, not trying to hurt anyone. And if they happen to kill some one in one of their bombings or arsons, it will only be an accident. They didn't want anyone to get hurt when they cut the brake lines on dozens of lobster delivery trucks several months ago. And they certainly only wanted to inflict property damage when they mass mailed razor blade rigged envelopes out to medical researchers and fur sellers.

I'm not saying I think all protestors should be labelled as terrorists, but let's not play pretend that there are not domestic terrorist groups within the eco/AR movements.

[Sternlicht Shoshana]

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[Gamber Jenifer Lee]

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