Damascus' Road

The Washington Post is reporting that the Iraq War has strengthened the hand of Syria's reformers.

"When your neighbor shaves, you start to wet your cheeks," said Nabil Jabi, a political strategist in Damascus, citing an Arabic proverb. "It means you must study the new situation in your neighborhood"….

During the past two weeks, the Syrian government has licensed its first three private banks … while approving two new private universities and four private radio stations. Officials are now reviewing the possibility of removing military training from the curriculum of schools and universities and eliminating a requirement that all students join youth groups affiliated with Syria's ruling Baath Party…

What do such changes mean? Who knows: maybe nothing, maybe it's the top of the Syrian Ba'thists' slippery slope. In any event, the postwar Mideast already seems a notably different place.

Comments

[Sir Real]

Lazarus-

"As for their response, can you blame them? They are being murdered in the streets by thugs. How would your respond if your 8-year old kid was blown to bits in a shopping mall or pizzaria?" How would you respond if your 8 y/o was shot by an 18 y/o checkpoint guard who considered him an "insect"? Oh, to live in your black-and-white world...

"Have hope, Machiavelli is a dirty SOB, but he is very effective when dealing with thugs." Machiavelli IS the thug- Saddam Hussein cribbed more than a few plays from The Prince. ("Better feared than loved" ringing any bells?)

Ghandi didn't create Israel; Jewish (freedom fighters/terrorists) did. It appears the Palestinians study history as well.

"As for the plight of the Palistinians, I have little to no mercy for those that support terrorism." Considering the infants, children, and innocents harmed in the occupation, that sentence is five words too long.

[Rick Barton]

There is a lot to like about Israeli civil (non-governmental) society and especially its secular components. There is nothing to like about the U.S governments giving the Sharon regime billions every year(number one foriegn aid expense)with which they use to butcher the Palestinians, maintain the occupation of their lands and finance settlements on the same. Sharon is receptive to and infuenced by religious extremists for which disdain for and discrimination against non-Jews is an article of religious observance. For an informed account of
fundamentalist Judiaism's sad effect on Israeli polity as well as a very interesting and surprising survey of Jewish history; See: "Jewish History, Jewish Relgion; the weight of three thousand years" by Israel Shahak, a non-leftist(more rational) human rights activist and scholar.
Also, see his: "Jewish Fundamantalism in Israel"

SM wrote:
"You dont really believe those idiots who accuse Israel of aparthied, do you ?"

And even trying for more aparthied. A year ago this July Sharon was pushing for a law that would have shut out Arab citizens of Isreal from purchasing homes or living on state owned property. It would have legalized "Jews-only" towns. Ref: An "L.A. Times" piece circa:July 2002, by Henry Chu.

[Lefty]

Laz - what do you say to the Palistinians "right of return" promised to them for the past 100 years? Do you have any respect at all for the Palistinians' property rights?

[Anonymous]

Rick -

"And even trying for more aparthied."

Did Walter Sisulu ever deny that Afrikaaners have a right to exist ?

[Lazarus Long]

Sir Real: I am not justifying their reaction, only noting that is a normal, human reaction to an insidous threat. And do you really believe that the PA-backed terrorists are NOT targeting innocent Isreali citizens? How would YOU feel? It's not like the Palistininian leadership is turning the other cheek. There is no justification for murder, but I would have no issue if every single PA-backed terrorist was JDAMed out of existance.

As for your thoughts on Machiavelli, he was a philosopher with many interesting ideas. The fact that Saddam abused his ideas does not make him a thug. I don't condone Machiavellism as a basis of society (though I have a hunch that evolutionary pschology will someday prove me wrong), but is very effective on anti-social criminals. And Ghandi didn't creat British India, the British imperialists/terrorists did. But he did end the occupation and it wasn't through whining about 500 years of oppression or blowing up birthday parties at Pizza Huts.

I actually support ending the occupation. Give the PA a State. And if it continues to support it, then wipe out the regime. If they have half a brain they will behave.

Wasn't this post about Syria? How does every discussion on the war turn into Jew-bashing? Oi Vei!

[Lazarus Long]

Lefty: Let's be realistic, now. Without a single recognized authority both sides will make conflicting claims and only one side has the rule of law and the means of enforcing it. Hence any Isreali claims in Isreal are de facto property anyway.

If this was the only issue these claims would probably be settled, as it would be cheaper for Isreal to just buy them off than fight them.

[Lazarus Long]

Let me be clear, I don't consider all Palistinians terrorists. But I really do not have mercy for any terrorists. Such criminals voluntary cede all of their rights by actively targeting innocent people. Their very intention is the unaccountable destruction of a society by the creation of fear, so laws and rights (social contracts) do not apply to them.

I really do feel for the innocent Palistinians, and I really do believe that so do 99.9% of Isrealis. The only real solution to this mess is for somebody (Isreali or PA) to eliminate terrorism. Until this happens there can be no middle ground.

[trainwreck]

I'm not making a connection between the events in Iraq and the numbers of dead Israelis and Palestinians over the past three years.

I don't think I have much to offer LL. I guess some peoples lives (or at least their convenience to be free from living in a police state) are just more valuable than others.

[Lazarus Long]

The last three years are irrelevent. I was speaking of future policy. And I don't advocate police states or killing, indeed I advocate the very opposite. Large-scale murder and the destruction of liberal society will be the end result of unchecked terrorism IMHO. Unless we stop it.

[Rick Barton]

Lefty wrote:
"Laz...Do you have any respect at all for the Palistinians' property rights?"

I don't know about about Laz but I'm pretty sure Ariel Sharon doesn't, since he displays no respect, even for Israeli citizens property rights if those citizens are Arabs.

[Stretch Cannonbury]

Rick -

Israel is not the #1 aid recipient - Egypt is. Rick Barton, meet The Internet. The Internet, meet Rick Barton.

Let's put this Israel question in some perspective. Around the world there are 12 million Jews, total. There used to be 18 million, but our friends the Germans had a very busy decade last century, so now we're down to 12 million - a reduction of 1/3rd.

If I were to post here the entire history of anti-Jewish pogroms - or hell, even the entire 20th century history - Reason's servers would crash from overload and they'd have to format all their hard drives.

It's a little weird, at first, to contemplate that Israel is designated a "Jewish" state. This seems very illiberal. And it is. But don't think for a minute that Israelis don't argue about this fact bitterly. They do. I know it; I've seen it.

The Jewish State cannot be acceptible to those who have taken vows of ideological purity - which is practically the definition of libertarian politics. Reality is messy, and perfect consistency in politics is impossible and has always been so. That one of the world's most liberal and cosmopolitan peoples has been forced to create an ethnic state is indeed unfortunate.

But give me an alternative. Continued pogroms? Continued episodes of genocide? You know how many Jews there'd be if vast numbers of them hadn't been hacked, burned, and shot to death? Do you think the state of Israel would even exist of Europe and Arabia weren't congenitally prone to occasional fits of anti-Semitism?

Has anyone here ever pondered why so much attention is placed on such a tiny state? Did y'all hear about the 1000 or so civilians hacked to death YESTERDAY in the Congo by bands of drugged and brainwashed children? Is anybody's blood pressure affected by the deliberate famine Mugabe - the self-described "black Hitler" - inflicting on the half of his country he believes is opposed to his rule?

Life is rough, especially for the ideologically pure. But there are lots of bloody, awful places around the world, and lots of states have committed and continue to commit massive crimes. Israel is not one of them. It's not perfect, but it's certainly in the top 10 percent or so, by any measure. To me, people who obsess over Israel's crimes while remaining pleasantly and perfectly ignorant of the rest of the world need to explain why they pay so much "special attention" to that one tiny speck of the world where Jews, against all odds, are NOT a beseiged minority.

[Lefty]

Laz - yes, let's do be realistic. Property rights are at the root of all this. Anybody who's had their land condemned or their business wiped out, even by a legitimate government, knows the pissedoffedness that can't be taken care of even by a token buyout. The fact that foreign, questionable authority - first the British, then the League of Nations, then the UN and now the US - set all this up with empty promises makes it all the more hard to take.

The solution to this is not ours to make. Level the playing field. Cut off Israel's arms and money and let them figure it out the best way they can.

[Rick Barton]

"The only real solution to this mess is for somebody (Isreali or PA) to eliminate terrorism."
"Such criminals voluntary cede all of their rights by actively targeting innocent people."

The Israeli government egages in "state terrorism"
(not to be confused with "state sponsored terorism") such as killing of innocent civillians, destruction of their homes, jailing, seizure of their property, torture. It is a shame
this thug regime is supported with our tax dollars.

[Stretch]

Lefty -

So your point is, cut off aid to Israel. Game, set, match. That's your program.

Funny, you didn't say anything about aid to the PA. Oversight?

How about aid to Jordan and Egypt (which receives more aid that Israel)? I didn't see where you said, "Let's cut of aid to everybody." What I read - and it's still there - is that we should cut off aid from Israel.

But you don't have anything against Jews, do you? No, of course not. Banish the thought. You're just a little selective in your criticism, that's all.

I'll be waiting to hear about your program for Zimbabwe, Congo, and the Somalia/Eritrea conflict, all of which have cost more lives by far than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Somehow, at the end of the day, it's always the Jews' fault, isn't it?

Amazing, but true. Racism is not dead in this country. Only its locus has moved from the right and is now firmly at home on the left.

[Stretch]

Rick -

I didn't hear you say, "We should also cut off aid to the PA, which also engages in terrorism." Did I miss that, or are we just talking about Jews here?

Thanks,
Stretch

[Lefty]

Stretch - how do you feel about compensation for African American slave descendants here? We have spent about 3 TRILLION dollars making up for the Jews' mistreatment and we weren't even (directly) responsible. I'm sure Jesse Jackson would settle for a small percentage of that.

[Stretch]

Three trillion dollars? Explain and name your sources.

[Lazarus Long]

Lefty: You are pretty lose with your facts. None of those groups you listed "set all this up." This was sparked by a bloody war. A stated goal of the terrorists is the "destruction of Isreal" not valid litagation.

"Leveling the playing field" will only increase death and destruction as it is likely the neighboring Arab states will invade. Their aid is pretty insignificant anyway, and they have an internal arms industry.

[Lazarus Long]

Rick: It is a shame, but what option do they have? It's the law of the jungle over there, but don't forget whose fault that is. Hint: It the same animals who blow up senior citizens celebrating passover. Are you saying that the Palistinian terrorists are not guilty of creating a climate of terror? How many zionist suicide bombers are there? How can civil society and liberty for all exist at all in such an environment?

[Stretch]

Lefty & Rick know perfectly well what would happen if we removed all aid to Israel.

First, let's back up a little. Americans are highly, highly supportive of Israel. I know, to Rick & Lefty this means there must be a shadowy Jewish conspiracy to control our minds and manipulate our media. But whatever the causes, to suggest that Americans would support such a thing is just as preposterous as suggesting they'd support invading Canada or something. I mean, seriously, anybody who thinks this could ever be a political possibility has no understanding of American politics at all. It's just silly.

But assume somehow that happened. They know perfectly well that several very large Arab states would invade Israel, destroy it, and kill most of the Jews living there.

The amazing thing is, this is Ok with Rick & Lefty and their racist pals. Another genocide? That would be jolly well fine with them.

[Stretch]

Hey Rick - aren't you the one who wrote a long post a while back about what a great country Somalia was?

[joe]

"Has anyone here ever pondered why so much attention is placed on such a tiny state?" Yes. Americans pay more attention to Israel because Israel is one of us. It is a democratic republic, with a constitution, market economy, and private civil society. It is a huge recipient of American aid and exchange (governmental and private). It is a close military ally, and has been defended by our military and has agreed to put its own internal desires aside for the good of our alliance (as in 1991, when it agreed to let itself be rocketed by Saddam without striking back). It is also, as its staunchest defenders like to point out, the only western democracy in the Middle East. Israel and the United States are conflated in the world's mind for very, very good reasons.

In short, Americans criticize Israel's failures and atrocities more than those of its Arab antagonists because the actions of Arab dictatorships don't make us, and the underlying belief in constitutional, liberal, secular democracy that the Israelis claim to share with us, look bad. When a third world dictatorship commits crimes, it doesn't reflect on us (except for the times it does, because of specific policies). When a western democracy with which we have close and friendly relations commits crimes worthy of a racist third world dictatorship, and brags about being a democracy just like us, it does reflect on us - as well as deeply disappoint us.

We now return to the Stretch and Laz "Al Sharpton Impersonation Hour."

[Sean]

Stretch,

I have to disagree. If the US ever decided to turn off the cashflow (I also agree this is not remotely likely, but speaking hypothetically) it would spell considerably more doom for Israel's neighbors than for Israel itself. Israel has seen itself attacked by its neighbors before and found pre-emptive strikes to be a more effecient means of protection than waiting for it. Given Israel's air superiority and likely nuclear arsenal, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon would be fucked and Jordan and the Palestinians wouldn't be looking much safer.

[Stretch]

Joe -

Fair point, but you're largely missing MY point. The criticisms levied by Rick & Lefty are not those of a "loyal opposition", if you're pardon the expression. They are not the admonishments of one liberal democrat to another.

Rick & Lefty want us to cut all ties to Israel. Rick & Lefty deny that Israel is democratic. They refer to it as a "rogue regime". They accuse it of engaging in "state terrorism". And they want the US to abandon it utterly and completely, knowing full well what will happen if we do.

Furthery, Rick & Lefty look at the world throught he blinders of anti-semitism. They see the aid the US gives to Israel, but not the aid we give to Egypt and Jordan, for example. They don't say, "We should withhold further aid to Israel until they dismantle some of their illegal settlements." In fact, that's a position I could take, because I'm not a complete psycho.

But you know full well, as well as I do, that their statements are not given in the spirit that you attribute to them. So why the charade?

Incidentally, Israel does not have a constitution. Neither does the UK. Liberalism and democracy, I think, are greatly enhanced through constitutions, but they shouldn't be considered necessary in order for liberalism and democracy to flourish.

[Stretch]

Sean -

I concede. In fact, it's true that many - perhaps most - Arabs want to destroy Israel. I've read several statements to the effect that Arabs won't kill Jews at all...as long as they all convert to Islam. Those that don't...well, they're fair game.

You're certainly right, however. Even if we did leave Israel to its own devices, it would "win". And that victory would probably be won through nuclear weapons.

[Lazarus Long]

That is a cheap shot joe -- clearly you would rather resort to name-calling and playing the "anti-race card" than dicuss an important issue. Both Rick and Lefty have yet to unequivocally condemn terrorism or even concede that some of Isreals agression and anger is justified or at least understandable. Such a one-sided viewpoint is definiatly a redflag as we are discussing a specific nation-state that happens to be Jewish. Before you accuse me of being one-sided, I think the Palistinians deserve the same rights of all humanity: life, liberty and property. But I also think that terrorists deserve no life as they undercut the framework for any such rights to exist.

And as long as terrorist networks exist, war will continue (at least in the mixed areas and boders). And the Palistinian people (or at least the PA) supports terrorism. The solution is to stop the terrorists, which can only happen the PA itself cracks down on them. Until then the IDF will continue (w/o success) to eliminate the networks, causing more misery. The more cynical Isrealis will relize that the Palistinians may have to bleed a lot more until this realization sinks in.

It is entirely unfair to compare a nation under constant attack to the relatively safe (remains to be seen) West. The two simply don't compare.

[SM]

Joe -

"Yes. Americans pay more attention to Israel because Israel is one of us" etc.

Agreed. But does that mean that we criticise only Israels faults ? Look at the number of times Sharon's name has beem thrown around right here ? In a line up of leaders and regimes from the region he'd surely come in dead last in the despot stakes - unless you mutiply the Jenin casualty numbers by maybe 100. Which is what a lot of people do anyway.

[david f]

greetings,

what is the source that egypt receives more aid?

i've searched and could only come up with:
arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/981022/1998102216.html which states that Is receives 2.94 B and Eg receives 2.075B

but -- the thought of reducing aid to both, and forcing the PA to play along via the pursestrings is a good idea.

but laz -- where is the "jew bashing"??

curiously,
drf

[trainwreck]

>>Do you think the state of Israel would even exist if Europe and Arabia weren't congenitally prone to occasional fits of anti-Semitism?

[Rick Barton]

Stretch wrote:
"Israel is not the #1 aid recipient - Egypt is. Rick Barton, meet The Internet. The Internet, meet Rick Barton."

Wrong! Foreign aid assistance to Israel, military
plus economic, is easily larger than Egypt's plus
Sharon wants eight billion in loan guerantees(they might get some already) Accuracy meet Stretch, Stretch meet accuracy. Also note, the impetus for the increase in Egypt's aid after 1973 was a buy off for peace with Israel.

[Lazarus Long]

david: I sincerely hope it is not, but is strange how a post on Syria becomes an excuse to ressurect the meme "critiquing Isreal" by of course blaming it for "state terrorism", all the problems over there etc.

[trainwreck]

No, because the formation of Israel depended upon the belief that that land was granted to the Jewish people as their very own homeland land by God. God, King of Kings, Jahweh, Lord of Lords surveyed the entire earth and decided that was the place for Jews.

As far as evidence that God did this, well I can prove it, it's written in a book.

[david f]

hey Laz!

thanks!

Rick,

thanks for that info, too. do you have a good link with all of that on it, too?

and was there a payoff to jordan, too?

cheers,
drf

[Lefty]

Here's a source that says 1.6 trillion in direct US aid dollars since 1973 plus twice that in collateral costs. Quibble, if you will, about a few billion here or there but don't deny that we have more than covered the tab for the Jew's terrible treatment in the past.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

I am NOT anti-semitic. I have friends in Israel and do business there. There is a significant number of Jews in Israel who recognize that repression, settlement expansion and high tech attacks on civilian areas is wrong headed and counter-productive. The Sharon regime has created a climate of fear in Israel, enabling him to advance his militaristic repression of a legitimate minority. It is now considered unpatriotic, as it is here in the US, to criticize anything the government does since, after all, "there's a war on".

I'm not saying "cut them loose", in reference to Israel. I'm saying to recognize some fairness, be an honest broker and give some credence to the palistinian grievances. That can't be done while we arm one side and prop up their failed, militaristic economy.

[Lazarus Long]

>>Also note, the impetus for the increase in Egypt's aid after 1973 was a buy off for peace with Israel.

[Lazarus Long]

>> The Sharon regime has created a climate of fear in Israel It is now considered unpatriotic, as it is here in the US, to criticize anything the government does since, after all, "there's a war on

[Lazarus Long]

joe: I did not call anyone a racist. The rest of your post only makes sense if you are saying that the vast majority of Palistinians and their leaders don't support terrorism, which I would love to hear you prove. Secondly, the so-called "anti-Palistinian" violence is clearly a response to terrorism. Again, I would love to see your proof that such violence would continue to exist in an Isreal not under terrorist threats.

[Stretch]

Funny how you're doing business in a "failed" economy. Funny how you express deep compassion for Palestinians yet can't spell the word correctly.

Funny how you obsessively focus on Sharon yet fail to acknowledge that, in a democracy, the people get the leader they choose. If Sharon is so repressive, why did so many people vote for him? Why are the Arabs in Israel better off than Arabs anywhere else on the planet? Funny.

No, Israel's treatment of its minorities is not always fair. Funny, though, how you provide no context - like the fact that Israel is in a vice-grip of terror no other country in the history of the world has ever experienced. Funny how they remain doggedly committed to the democratic process, to liberalism and openness, when just about any other nation on earth, in a similar position, would have gladly allowed their governments to assume "emergency" and dictatorial powers.

We're talking about genocide - 6 million out of 18 million were slaughtered in the 30s and 40s alone. And here you are, bitching about the "TAB"! Unbelievable.

The $1.6 trillion figure is a bald lie. Here are two reasons off the top of my head:

1. The $1.6T number is not adjusted for inflation. The real number is about $200 billion, or 1/8th the number you cite. That's like saying cars are 20 times more expensive now than they used to be, because they used to be $500 and now they're $10,000. (And god knows you're probably blaming the Jews for that, too).

2. Double-counting. Early in the piece the author complains of US military aid to Arab governments, saying we wouldn't be doing that if it weren't for Israel. Later he complains about Israel's blocking their spending of the money, claiming that Israel "prevented" a $40M purchase of F-16s by Saudi Arabia. So, it cost us to give money to SA - $40M - and then it cost us the same money again when SA was prevented from buying F-16s. That's called double-counting and it's intellectually dishonest and calls the entire piece into question.

And this is just at first glance.

What you have done is cite what is probably the most controversial piece the CS Monitor has run in recent times. Have you read the editor's note?

You crack me up. You even use the classic "Some of my best friends are Jews!" line. I bet they are.

Funny how Arabs are blowing Israelis up by the dozen, using nails as shrapnel, and yet somehow you deduce that Sharon is responsible for the "climate of fear". Very funny indeed.

You know what? You're a racist. It's as obvious as the nose on your face.

[Rick Barton]

Stretch wrote:
"Furthery, Rick & Lefty look at the world throught he blinders of anti-semitism."
and
"The amazing thing is, this is Ok with Rick & Lefty and their racist pals. Another genocide? That would be jolly well fine with them."

Sure Stretch, when your argument is weak, just resort to unfounded accusations of racism.
You lack honor and should be ashamed of your self.

"They accuse it of engaging in "state terrorism"".

Because its true

"Lefty & Rick know perfectly well what would happen if we removed all aid to Israel. They know perfectly well that several very large Arab states would invade Israel, destroy it, and kill most of the Jews living there."

Stretch knows nothing of the balance of military power in the mideast. That senario could not happen for the foreseeable future.

But in a later post he contradicts himself and admits:

"Even if we did leave Israel to its own devices, it would "win". And that victory would probably be won through nuclear weapons."

Stretch is obviously just posting untill he figures out something to say.

"Rick -
I didn't hear you say, "We should also cut off aid to the PA, which also engages in terrorism."

I think we should also cut off government aid to to the P.A. along with all the other states in the region. Of course, I'm opposed to government aid to all other countries both for practicle concerns as well as on principle.

"Hey Rick - aren't you the one who wrote a long post a while back about what a great country Somalia was?"

I Talked about an article that appeared in "liberty" about how much things have improved since the abolition of their central government. It was by a fellow who lived there.

"How about aid to Jordan and Egypt (which receives more aid that Israel)?"

Again the same misstatement of fact but we should cut off government aid to all of them.

[Ranger]

Japan and S. Korea also recieved billions in free military protection. Just like the Germans. But I suppose they are not jews...

[Lefty]

Somebody please tell me where our country's interests lie in propping up the Israeli government to the extent we do? It makes no sense strategically or economically. Yeah, they needed protection and our national conscience needed salved after WWII but what is it now? They are a speck of desert in the middle of nowhere.

We are willing to dump allies like France and Germany.

If we truly want a new world order and do something about the terrorism problem we would re-evaluate this strange blood oath we seem to have taken.

[SM]

"If we truly want a new world order and do something about the terrorism problem we would re-evaluate this strange blood oath we seem to have taken."

Ah ... It was just a matter of time before someone explicitly brought up the root-cause argument. Apparently Israel, by its existence, is responsible for approximately a third of the worlds problems. The fact that it is opposed by dictatorial & irrational theocratic regimes has nothing to do with it.
Oh well ... maybe the mossad was responsible for the bombings in Saudi Arabia yesterday AFTER the US announced that it was pulling out. UNILATERALLY.

[Anonymous]

Whatever it takes to get rid of those filthy Arab terrorists. Riyadh is next. Nuke Mecca, if need be.

[Stretch]

Yes, I agree. I mean, this could be said of every country on earth, but let's throw Israel out there as an example. Not that I have anything against...well, nevermind.

Anyway, I hear that Somalia is a much nicer place this time of year than Israel. Nope, there's no militarism in Somalia. It's just daisies and walks in the park.

[Lazarus Long]

Well I see my Machiavellian justification is working, it remains to be seen if the Iranians, Saudis, Paks and N. Koreans will fold next.

As for Rick's comments, I agree with Stretch. Put it in perspective, Isreal is the most liberal nation in the region and perhaps one of the most liberal on the planet.

Saying that Israeli society thinks "every problem Israel faces can be solved through the use of military power" is unfair and discounts that Israeli society is a Western liberal society with civil society, rule of law, liberties and markets - which is more than can be said of its neighbors. This has evolved in spite of being *threatened* by constant war throughout its existance. Not sure your point, hope it isn't just run of the mill reflexive anti-"Zionism" as seems more common at Anti-War.com.

[Rick Barton]

"Rick: It is a shame, but what option do they have? It's the law of the jungle over there, but don't forget whose fault that is."

There are certainly options to state terrorism and
the occupation is the main cause.

"Are you saying that the Palistinian terrorists are not guilty of creating a climate of terror? How many zionist suicide bombers are there?"

I not only would not say the Palestinian terrorists are not guilty of creating a climate of terror. I say they are guilty of murder when they target innocent civillians. Zionists don't resort to terror as the did when they were
weak but Israeli state terror is terror just the same.

[Xmas]

Lazarus,

I don't think I would agree with you about the the Israeli government being "the most liberal on the planet." Isreal is suffering from the militarist stance it has had to take in its own defense. It is slowly slipping into fascism to defend itself against those, as they call them in Isreal, insects, the Palestinians. Isreal is letting their hatred consume them. How long will it be before that hatred turns inwards?

[Rick Barton]

Laz wrote:
"I really do feel for the innocent Palistinians, and I really do believe that so do 99.9% of Isrealis."

Were that true, Sharon would not be elected.

"Both Rick and Lefty have yet to unequivocally condemn terrorism or even concede that some of Isreals agression and anger is justified or at least understandable."

I do unequivocally condemn terrorism against civilians and I do think some of Israels agression and anger is understandable.

"So increased aid to Egypt for not attacking Isreal counts as Isreali aid?"

No, it does not count that way.

"Is aid in general that Rick opposes or just aid to Isreal? If we are giving it away, I would rather it went to a friendly country with strong business ties instead of one that trains terrorists to blow us up."

I'm opposed to all foreign aid. Note that U.S. support for the Israeli occupation was one of the "reasons" given in the Bin Laden Fatwa. U.S government foreign policy makes us targets for terrorists.

[SM]

Rick, Xmas,
What else do you expect Israel to do ? Can any country that is surrounded the way Israel is by dictatorships and theocracies that are hostile to its very existence expect to have its polictics remain unchanged ? Israel has done quite well, under the conditions it has endured, to preserve its civil society.
You dont really believe those idiots who accuse Israel of aparthied, do you ?

This is going to be a busy board ...

[Luca Brasi]

He didn't say they were THE most liberal nations, just one of them.

[Lazarus Long]

Well I didn't say it was "the most liberal on the planet", I said it was the most liberal nation in the region and perhaps *one* of the most liberal on the planet (most of the planet is decidely not liberal).

As for their response, can you blame them? They are being murdered in the streets by thugs. How would your respond if your 8-year old kid was blown to bits in a shopping mall or pizzaria? This is why I supported the Iraqi invasion, as it could happen here. A Police State WOULD be in place in the US following a nuclear terrorist attack, so this attack must never happen.

I don't think liberal democracy can survive terrorism, especially nuclear terrorism. For this reason I also believe the Palistinians should get their own State. Let them have a State, let this State support terrorism, and we will then remove it. Clearly they don't want a "regime change" so a Palistinian State may serve as "golden handcuffs" as they would crack down internally on terrorists and put Isreal in a better spot for the future (no more terror). Have hope, Machiavelli is a dirty SOB, but he is very effective when dealing with thugs.

[Lefty]

Laz, it's good to see you come out of your hole you crawled into awhile back. I recall making a sideways comment about your Nazi tendencies (no soup for me) and I was admonished for name calling instead of arguing logic. Now that I've asked for a logical reason to link our nation's future with that of Israel you knee-jerked an anti-semitism label to me. Fair enough.

I now admire your devotion to non-logical issues. I do the same regarding homeless people, defenseless people, minorities and the like. I think it's fair that somebody stands up for them. Sometimes they just can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and they need a little help, just like Israel.

You have now shown your colors. Please go lurk into your hole again.

[trainwreck]

How does a nation, which must under all circumstances maintain a specific ethnic/religious identity for the majority of it's population, claim to be a "liberal democracy"?

Israel is a state founded on a religion. Bad idea to begin with.

[Lazarus Long]

I'm no expert on Isreal, but there are liberal democracies with majority ethnicities/cultures (Japan) and state religions (Sweden - Evangelic-Lutheran).

[Lazarus Long]

Found this: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5697.htm

>>Israel has no constitution; however, the law provides for freedom of worship, and the Government generally respects this right in practice.
There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report. The Basic Law describes Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state." The overwhelming majority of non-Jewish citizens are Muslims, Druze, and Christians and generally are referred to as Israeli Arabs. Israeli Arabs are subject to various forms of discrimination, some of which have religious dimensions. Israeli Arabs and other non-Jewish Israelis, are, in fact, generally free to practice their religions.

[david f]

greetings and tuesday, all!

hey Laz!

yeah -- the nordic countries most certainly do have "state religion" -- where you have to go to city hall and sign a form denoting that you don't want any of yer tax dollars going to the church. that means that ministers are actually bureaucrats... go figure. from this citizen's vantagepoint, that's pretty true.

here are a few other tidbits: non "danish" weddings, funerals, etc., must be approved of beforehand. "non traditional" names must be approved of, too. A friend of mine couldn't name his daughter "Kimberly", as that name is too close to a boy's name, Kim...

funerals or burial plots can be tricky. even places of worship are harder to come by. and since circumcision is on the way to being outlawed (male, mind you), the bris soon might be out the door, there.

while i do disagree with quite a few of israel's more aggressive policies (settlements; some of the protections of the orthodox sect; their rock-n-roll), Laz is totally correct that even in "tolerant" europe, there are states whose practices towards (non-judeo/christian) religions borders on surprising.

who knows what would have happened if Rabin weren't assassinated...

cheers!
drf

[SM]

Agree with Laz. It is a talking point with islamic apologists that "even england has a state religion". I've seen this point made many times on CSPAN.
When Saudi Arabia is as liberal as England or Israel, we'll talk, OK ?

[trainwreck]

>

There's no logic or reason here, LL. I think the kill rate is about 3:1, with three Palestinians killed for each Israeli death. It's very tragic on all sides.

You might respond like the Palestinians have, by strapping bombs to your car and driving it in to a checkpoint. Or like the rabid Jewish settlers have, who believe God granted them the right to these lands and thus Arabs must be expelled.

Please remember that the Palestinians are living in areas controlled by Israel, but they aren't afforded any benefits of citizenship. That's because if Isreal were to annex the occupied areas, then Jews would be a minority in Isreal, and it would't be a Jewish state.

As far as that level of terrorism happening here, what are you talking about? Who would do this, and for what?

[Lazarus Long]

trainwreck: I am not sure about your kill ratio given the recent events in Iraq. Statehood would require a centralized authority, vulnrable to decapitating strikes (and it seems like the IDF has that capacity and surely they were studying the Iraq War). If the PA are smart they will make that calculation and cease sponsoring terrorism.

As for the plight of the Palistinians, I have little to no mercy for those that support terrorism. They would be better off with a Ghandi.

As for the US, multiple strikes at different cities would no doubt result in enacting a Police State to protect the rest of the nation. Ditto for a single WMD strike. It would be very bad for either to happen. Confused on your question: You have been watching the news for the last 10 years correct?

[Rick Barton]

drf wrote:
"Rick,
thanks for that info, too. do you have a good link with all of that (aid to Egypt) on it, too?"

See:
Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict@ by Norman G. Finkelstein (1995).

A review is at:
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal_vol7/9910_bleier.asp

Cost of aid to Egypt is deliniated at:
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
Which is where this text came from:

"There are many other costs of Israel to U.S. taxpayers, such as most or all of the $45.6 billion in U.S. foreign aid to Egypt since Egypt made peace with Israel in 1979 (compared to $4.2 billion in U.S. aid to Egypt for the preceding 26 years). U.S. foreign aid to Egypt, which is pegged at two-thirds of U.S. foreign aid to Israel, averages $2.2 billion per year."

So contrary to the misinformation given by "Stretch" it is not even possible for Egypt to get more than Israel. Egypt is yet another Thug regime in the region that we should cut off totaly
from tax-payer dollars.

"and was there a payoff to jordan, too?"

Not that I'm aware of.

[Rick Barton]

SM wrote:
"It was just a matter of time before someone explicitly brought up the root-cause argument. Apparently Israel, by its existence, is responsible"...

The root cause is the mass dispossession inflicted upon the Palestinians with the creation of Israel. This fact is much more freely discussed in Israel then it is in the U.S., as odd as that might seem. There are interesting conjectures as to why this is but I'm tired and have to crash.

"do something about the terrorism problem we would re-evaluate this strange blood oath we seem to have taken."

Lefty's comment was about the US relationship with Israel, not Israel's existence.

I was the first post on this thread, and I would have never guessed that all this would have ensued following my simple notation of a book that claimed that Israel as well as Syria (the original topic of this post) had a militarism problem.

But oh well...that's free speech for you. I do think it would be much better, though, if unfounded accusations of racism could be avoided on these threads.

[Croesus]

Lazarus,

Well, we all are animals. 🙂

[SM]

"The root cause is the mass dispossession inflicted upon the Palestinians with the creation of Israel."

Rick -
Which, of course, clearly explains why 19 saudi & egyptian middle/upper middle class gentlemen flew two planes into the WTC. And lets not forget those fine specimens from Birminghan who somehow believed themselves oppressed by Israel.
I have to say that as a result of the opinions expressed by Rick and Lefty i am more convinced than ever that Israel deserves support - else every illiberal movement that can manufacture a historical tragedy (there a LOTS of them) and affects a vague fraternal sympathy with some "discriminated against" group can force a Czhekoslovakia like situation. Crushing the Nazis was also not achieved at zero cost.

I mean - Is it OK for Tom Cruise to fund anti-german terrorism ? I hear they have laws against scientology there - which surely causes great anguish & personal discomfort to thetans who live in LA.
People who believe that Israel is illberal should be forced to live in a really repressive society for maybe 3 months.

[Lazarus Long]

Rick: Root cause, smoot cause. They currently support terrorism and terrorism is not valid conduct for civilized human beings. Terrorists are not soldiers. Terrorists are not politicians or businessmen. Terrorists are not peace marchers. There is NO justification for terror and to provide it you are only undermining the very foundations of human rights. Isreal is just on the front lines. How we stand on the terror issue that is how we stand when it comes HERE.

Again, I say give em a state. End the occupation. Then the US can threaten to bomb the shit out of them if another terror attack occurs. But don't give me a single excuse or justification or root "cause" for terrorism. Terrorists are animals to be exterminated.

[Croesus]

Lazarus,

Well, Israel may be the most liberal nation in the middle east, but that isn't saying much. Israel has serious issues with property rights, for example (like trying to award such to Jews but not Arabs - there was a great series of articles in Ha'aretz about this a few months ago), as well as with religious liberty (at least I wouldn't want to live in a country which meddles in such questions as who is a real Jew or not, and the like, and thus gets access to government goodies). Suffice it to say that Israel is still struggling with the issue of having a state that is based on Zionism, which still respects the rights of non-Jews. The outcome has been imperfect, but it likely could have also been worse, given how other collectivist movements have turned out.

Furthermore, its not an innaccurate statement to say that militarization has come with political and social costs to Israel (just think about how much money has been flat out wasted in training and running the army). That doesn't mean that such militarization was imporper; it does mean that there are costs and benefits associated with such, and ignoring either is dishonest. Furthermore, illustrating the costs and the benefits also likely demonstrates that Israel (nor the middle east for that matter) cannot continue on the path that it is headed now and hope to come to any sort of healthy success.

Israel is not above reproach; nor is it the world's moral leper either. I think both sides in this debate like the polarize the issue in this way, and that makes no sense to me.

[Lazarus Long]

Croesus: I actually agree with most of your points: Isreal is no a liberal utopia. As for the polarization of the issue in this debate -- well I am not a zionist either, but I feel that there is a very destructive meme here that Isreal is the world's moral leper. I take issue with this. I also take issue with those who feel that terrorism is justified, or "caused" by Isreal.

Let's not forget that anti-semitism really is a factor with the pro-terrorists over there. Given that and the ugly history of anti-semetism and the fact that some have made anti-semetic statements in this very thread or linked to shady sources (not pointing fingers, you can read above yourself) I think it is completely fair to discuss it rationally. I think it is unfair and irrational to simply deny that it isn't a factor and accuse anyone bringing it up as "name calling" or "dishonorable."

[Croesus]

Lazarus,

Well, I agree, there is a way to criticize Israel w/o making Israel out to be some uber-evil nation. I think that's also true for most other nations (e.g., US, France, Germany, Japan, etc.), who all have less than glorious histories.

And I don't think that Israel is the root of all the middle east's problems (they would likely exist with or /wo Israel), but I do think that Israel's presence in the middle east doesn't help; or it hasn't at least provided the role that it was supposed to provide. From the latter part of the 19th century, when folks like Hertzen and like started talking about a move to the middle east, it was thought that Jews would be a "civilizing force" in the region. When British and French government officials (including Churchill) visited Palestine (as it was called by the British after WWI) right after WWI much of the discussion was over who to create a Jewish state that would "civilize" the region. Churchill was pleased when his translator told him that the crowds they met were yelling "Hooray for Britain," what the transalator didn't tell him was that they were also yelling "Death to the Jews!" I think the experiment has miserably failed (it likely was doomed to failure, given the paternalistic connotations it ascribed to the role of Israel - people have pride you know). I think it was a really stupid idea - God bless the UN! - to stick a Jewish state there. But we can't go back from that now. Israel is there, it has won the land by right of conquest (if anything), and keep the land so long as another hostile power can't boot it off. Israel isn't going to "reform" or "civilize" the middle east, that protect is up for the other countries of the middle east to deal with (as it always was, fantasies about Israel being the spearhead of civilization in the region were always just that, fantasies).

Excuse my rambling thoughts. I expect that you get my point. 🙂

[Lazarus Long]

Croesus: Yes it was a mess from the beginning. But history, IMHO, is only useful as guide to the future. Though maybe parts of it were born of conquest it has still evolved into a liberal society. I'll take whatever liberalism in this illiberal world, wherever I can find it!

[Rick Barton]

SM wrote:
"People who believe that Israel is illberal should be forced to live in a really repressive society for maybe 3 months."

Im sure the government of Rhodesia was quite fair
if you were white.

[Rick Barton]

SM wrote:

"Which, (the mass dispossession inflicted upon the Palestinians) of course, clearly explains why 19 saudi & egyptian middle/upper middle class gentlemen flew two planes into the WTC."

Note that U.S. support for the Israeli occupation was one of the "reasons" given in the Bin Laden Fatwa.

"I have to say that as a result of the opinions expressed by Rick and Lefty i am more convinced than ever that Israel deserves support..."

The Israeli government, currently the Sharon regime, is not the same as "Israel". There is good evidence that giving more funds to Sharon encourages both his misdeeds and the religious extremists who back him. If you want to give money to any entity in Israel I support your right to do so. What I object to is being forced to give money via government "foreign aid" to Israel and the even worse thug regimes in the region such as Syria and Egypt. Ok, I object to all government foreign aid but the funds that go to the mid-east seem extra harmful.

"else every illiberal movement that can manufacture a historical tragedy"

The Palestinian desires to end the occupation and for nationhood are not "illiberal" and the mass dispossession inflicted upon the Palestinians was not a "manufactured tragedy". It was a real one.

[Rick Barton]

Laz wrote:
"But don't give me a single excuse or justification or root "cause" for terrorism. Terrorists are animals to be exterminated."

I was sayng that it (mass dispossession inflicted upon the Palestinians) is the root cause of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I share your disgust at terrorism and don't exclude the "state terrorism" that the Sharon regime pursues from your condemnation. The human suffering is the no different.

[Maqbool Rabbani]

Isreal and law are two opposite and totally different things. Isreal is a racist and bias socity. I am very surprised these so called "cultured, eduated and living in West" jews do not have no consideration for the sufferings of Palistinians.
Remember Us Muslims could have killed You jews all when we controlled that part of the world for centuries. But we did not because we follow Allah's word His Prophets saying and Quran. Which meant we gave you Jews full freedom of conducting your daily business. Are you doing the same?

[Dequiroz Jeannemarie]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
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DATE: 12/10/2003 01:07:22
Unusual ideas can make enemies.

[Sarantitis Joshua]

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DATE: 12/10/2003 01:48:04
You are free and that is why you are lost.

[Perlov George]

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DATE: 12/20/2003 05:47:25
Study as though you will not reach, as if you may lose it.

[Kohn Amy]

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DATE: 01/09/2004 05:07:42
It does not matter how slowly you go, so long as you do not stop.

[Barba Richard]

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DATE: 05/20/2004 02:26:25
Man is the missing link between apes and human beings.