Reason Magazine

Site Search

Tyranny of the Majority

voted outOne more reminder, in this election season, that democracy has a dark side:

Melissa Barton said she is considering legal action after her son's kindergarten teacher led his classmates to vote him out of class.

After each classmate was allowed to say what they didn't like about Barton's 5-year-old son, Alex, his Morningside Elementary teacher said they were going to take a vote, Barton said. By a 14 to 2 margin, the class voted him out of the class.

Apparently, the poor kid has Aspergers, a less severe form of autism, and his classmates found him "disgusting."

Alex's response to the vote:

"I feel sad."

And speaking of skepticism of the rule by the masses, take a minute to enjoy some of these defenses of elitism, a word that has taken a beating recent days of the campaign.

Via Instapundit

Help Reason celebrate its next 40 years. Donate Now!
Send this article to:

« New at Reason: Jeff Taylor… | Main | Dispatches From Planet Huckabee »

Comments to "Tyranny of the Majority":

kinnath | May 29, 2008, 3:20pm | #

Survivor -- Classroom Edition.

You are so off the island dude.

Joshua Corning | May 29, 2008, 3:21pm | #

By a 14 to 2 margin, the class voted him out of the class.

Are the two dissenting votes from girls who have crushes on the rebellious Asbergers kid....or future libertarians?

J | May 29, 2008, 3:22pm | #

Asperger's

No b.

ed | May 29, 2008, 3:23pm | #

Just wait...in 30 years they'll be calling him Senator Barton.

GG | May 29, 2008, 3:23pm | #

I feel sad, too.

In related news:

Teacher Caught on Tape: Kindergartner 'Ignorant, Pathetic, Self-Absorbed'

J | May 29, 2008, 3:24pm | #

Also, arguably a related disorder that is similar to autism, rather than a mild form. A mild form is more commonly called high-functioning autism (HFA). Not that the definitions aren't in flux as the disorders are increasingly studied.

Warren | May 29, 2008, 3:24pm | #

That teacher should have been fired on the spot.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 3:24pm | #

I read about this incident, and after getting past the "OMZG she did what?" reaction, I started to think about it a little more.

Apparrently the kid is a difficult discipline case and has been removed from class for disrupting it several times.

If a classroom is a community of sorts, one way to socialize someone who is disrupting that community is to create communication where the other members of that community tell the disrupter how their behavior makes them feel.

It's kind of funny to me that 30 years ago, holding an "encounter group session" where the other students told the misbehaving student how they felt about him would have been considered unforgivably "touchy-feely" compared to the traditional discipline of just belting the kid in the head. But now what would once have been "touchy-feely" is considered too harsh!

Invoking the magic word of Asperger's isn't that impressive to me, because I'm sure I would be diagnosed as borderline Asperger's if you shrunk me back to 5 years old and put me in the public school system. Borderline Asperger's - and a colossal dick. A mean little bastard who disrupted classes and was brutal to teachers who showed even the slightest bit of weakness and who never considered the other students around me for even a second. There really would have been nothing wrong with having my classmates tell me I was a dick. I might actually have benefitted from it.

ChicagoTom | May 29, 2008, 3:26pm | #

In a tangentially related story, another kindergarten student's parents had him secretly record his teacher because the parents suspected that the teacher was being verbally abusive.

Story here

J | May 29, 2008, 3:26pm | #

Thank you for the correction, but to be even more of a pain, if you use Asperger's instead of Asperger Syndrome, you want the '.

sage | May 29, 2008, 3:27pm | #

That teacher should have been fired on the spot.

C'mon Warren, you know that "teacher" and "fired" don't go in the same sentence...with a public school anyway. Or if the context is along the lines of "A teacher fired a warning shot into the playground before rounding the class up for fifth period."

BakedPenguin | May 29, 2008, 3:28pm | #

Fluffy - yes, but perhaps the kid in question is not a dick.

J | May 29, 2008, 3:28pm | #

And from the sound of it, no they wouldn't have said you were borderline Asperger's, from your description Fluffy. The description is closer to the definition of anti-social personality disorder or just plain ADHD. Not that those are likely from a simple description either.

ChicagoTom | May 29, 2008, 3:28pm | #

Fluffy :

That's all well and good, but to hold a vote to have him removed from class is not the proper way to handle him. If his behavior is so bad then he should be moved into a classes with the other kids with behavior problems/disorders.

That's how my school did it. They didn't "hold a vote" to publicly shame someone and then kick them out of class.

Mick | May 29, 2008, 3:29pm | #

The teacher disgusts me. What a pathetic asshole. The kids are to young to make any mature decisions like that and the teacher should have taken responsibility but instead was such a wretched coward she asked a bunch of 6 year olds to make the decision for her.

Episiarch | May 29, 2008, 3:32pm | #

I am mystified as to why, if he was so unpopular, he hadn't had a few beatdowns from his fellow students to give him the message. I mean, that's the way kids do things.

John | May 29, 2008, 3:34pm | #

Fluffy,

The Kid is five. Get a fucking clue. If the kid were 16 maybe. But he is five for God's sake. Our tax dollars go to pay this dumb bitch to work with him. It may be true that the kid should not be in a mainstream class. But that is a decision that the adults make, not the other five year olds.

Kolohe | May 29, 2008, 3:34pm | #

Since everyone's precious little snowflakes can't do no wrong no more, I'm almost inclined to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt. I'm pretty certain the kid was a royal pain in the ass.

But, if the elementary school teacher can't handle it, she should be in different line of work.

I wonder how Detective John Kimble would have handled it?

Episiarch | May 29, 2008, 3:35pm | #

IT'S NOT A TUMOR

John | May 29, 2008, 3:36pm | #

Fluffy,

You post belongs in the Onion. Once again, the KID IS FIVE!!! If "Teacher Finds that Kindergartners Are Immature, Self Absorbed Dicks" isn't an Onion headline, it should be.

Taktix® | May 29, 2008, 3:36pm | #

Apparently, the poor kid has Aspergers, a less severe form of autism, and his classmates found him "disgusting."

Alex's response to the vote:

"I feel sad."


Bullshit! You don't even know what "feeling sad" means!

*ducks*

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 3:37pm | #

My step-son has Asperger's, and if one of his teachers did this to him, I'd fucking take a gun and blow her gamy cunt off.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 3:38pm | #

Since everyone's precious little snowflakes can't do no wrong no more, I'm almost inclined to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt.

Then you're inclined to be a fucking asshole.

CharlesWT | May 29, 2008, 3:38pm | #

When schools can't choose the kids they are willing to teach and parents can't choose the schools they would like to send their kids to...

brotherben | May 29, 2008, 3:39pm | #

Okay, I'll be the one to ask.

fluffy, is there any medical evidence to suggest you may grow out of it in the future?


j/k

ed | May 29, 2008, 3:40pm | #

Jamie needs a time out.

Art-P.O.G. | May 29, 2008, 3:42pm | #

If "Teacher Finds that Kindergartners Are Immature, Self Absorbed Dicks" isn't an Onion headline, it should be.
QFMFT.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 3:42pm | #

K M-W,

And speaking of skepticism of the rule by the dumbasses

Fixed ;)

BTW, I take it this is a public school? AKA a gun school?

You get what you pay for does not apply to government enterprises.

h-dawg | May 29, 2008, 3:43pm | #

I think it was a brilliant lesson in the value of democracy. Genius.

And anyone who says there's a difference between a bunch of six year olds and adult voters completely misses the boat.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 3:45pm | #

Jamie needs a time out.

Ed needs a Dave's Insanity Sauce-covered Louisville Slugger shoved up his colon so hard, he'll taste his own hot-sauce-flavored shit.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 3:47pm | #

Brotherben wins the thread.

Seriously, I think you people hate public school teachers so much that you refuse to think even simple situations through. I hate 'em too, but I also hate the tendency of modern parents to try to find ways to medicalize the fact that their kids are dicks, so they can use the ADA to prevent them from ever being disciplined.

It's appropriate even with toddlers who hit / act out / scream / misbehave in play settings with their peers to confront the kid with the consequences of their misbehavior [i.e. that the other kids won't like them] and to attempt to induce empathy by making the kid listen to how his behavior makes other kids feel. "If this is how you are going to treat us, you can't be our friend and you can't play with us," is a socializing message to hear.

You guys want to focus on the no-good public school teacher you can't fire, but I want to focus on the no-good public school student parent who wants to use a therapeutic diagnosis to make sure her kid can hit the other kids and no one can "shame" him about it. Because you don't have to feel "shame" about a disability, right? Even if your disability is that you're a dick.

Dormouse | May 29, 2008, 3:47pm | #

What the fuck? Seriously, if the teacher decides that the kid doesn't belong in the class that's one thing. But letting his 5-year old classmates decide is just messed up.

billhilly | May 29, 2008, 3:47pm | #

I've got an idea! Lets have these people run our healthcare.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 3:48pm | #

I think it was a brilliant lesson in the value of democracy. Genius.

Too bad they did not have a Kindergarden Republic, with limits on power and some other good stuff.

Bingo | May 29, 2008, 3:50pm | #

Haha, the retarded kid got his feelings hurt.

David | May 29, 2008, 3:50pm | #

While the teacher actions are pretty much indefensible, there's probably a lot of blame to go around here.

We don't enough about this kid and what he did in class. We don't know if it was suggested that he be transferred to a special needs class earlier? We don't know whether he was diagnosed with behavioral problems before entering kindergarten.

The only thing we do know is that he was disrupting class and the other kids.

None of that should be read to mean that the teacher's action were anything less than monstrous.

brotherben | May 29, 2008, 3:52pm | #

With the ADA in place now, is it even possible to force a kid into a special needs class?

Episiarch | May 29, 2008, 3:53pm | #

Haha, the retarded kid got his feelings hurt.

"Hi. This is Wilford Brimley. Welcome to Retardation: A Celebration. Now, hopefully with this book, I'm gonna dispel a few myths, a few rumors. First off, the retarded don't rule the night. They don't rule it. Nobody does. And they don't run in packs. And while they may not be as strong as apes, don't lock eyes with 'em, don't do it. Puts 'em on edge. They might go into berzerker mode; come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows. You might be screaming 'no, no, no' and all they hear is 'Who wants cake?' Let me tell you something: they all do. They all want cake."

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 3:53pm | #

Wow, fluffy, I didn't know you were familiar with all the nuances and the complete history of this case.
Tell me, what kind of underwear does this little boy wear?
And you're right! Socialization in the form of shame -- standing him up in front of the class while his classmates are free to insult and degrade him -- is totally appropriate.
Go sniff your mom's fish-slit, you piece of shit.

Seamus | May 29, 2008, 3:54pm | #

Yet another reason to homeschool.

Marcvs | May 29, 2008, 3:54pm | #

Fluffy, do you even known what Asperger's Disorder is? It's not just his parents "medicalizing" him.

And to have an authority figure organize his "socialization", as you call it, is beyond ridiculous.

My guess is you were an asshole in school.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 3:55pm | #

Bingo, go fuck yourself, you ignorant twat.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 3:55pm | #

The teacher sounds liek a hater and should be eliminated.

Taktix® | May 29, 2008, 3:56pm | #

Kindergarten is a German word.

Coincidence?

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 3:56pm | #

Fluffy too, for that matter.

Bingo | May 29, 2008, 3:56pm | #

I'm an asshole right now. Retards should be aborted in the womb.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 3:57pm | #

And Bingo.

Art-P.O.G. | May 29, 2008, 3:57pm | #

Kindergarten is a German word.

Coincidence?
Best implied Godwin ever?

Neu Mejican | May 29, 2008, 3:58pm | #

Fluffy,

Finding an appropriate way for the child and his peers to communicate about his behavior is one thing...

Voting him out of the class survivor style is inappropriate for many, many, many reasons. Some legal, some pedagogical, some just plain common sense.

As for the difference between ASD diagnoses and "being a dick": If diagnosis is done properly there is no danger of confusion between the conditions.

Bingo,

Who hurt your feelings?

Art-P.O.G. | May 29, 2008, 3:59pm | #

And Bingo.
QFUT.

mike | May 29, 2008, 4:00pm | #

Jamie - We appreciate that you found your dad's book of naughty words and phrases. Why don't you go teach some of them to your little sister and let the adults talk?

Bingo | May 29, 2008, 4:03pm | #

For everyone that talks about how blessed they are with God's "special gift" or whatever euphemism they want to give their retard kid; just imagine how much more "blessed" you would feel if your child could actually grow up and be a functioning adult.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:03pm | #

mike,
I'm inflamed because of the level of bigotry displayed by some of the commenters here. When you can take your righteous annoyance and point it at fuckheads like fluffy and Bingo, then maybe I'll have some respect for you.
Until then, you're just another cunt.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 4:05pm | #

Wow, this has turned into Maddox's e-mail box quite quickly.

Neu Mejican | May 29, 2008, 4:06pm | #

Brotherben,

With the ADA in place now, is it even possible to force a kid into a special needs class?

Special Needs Classrooms are not typically forced on anyone (they are, afterall, additional services that you have to meet a high bar to qualify for), but there is a procedural mechanism whereby this can happen.

ADA btw is not the primary law involved.
That would be IDEA.

You can find info here
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/osers/osep/index.html

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:08pm | #

Bingo,
Please tell me how badly niggers stink.
You fucking bigot.
My step-son is not "special" and I don't use euphemisms for his condition. He is trying, with the help of his parents and medication, to live as normal a life as possible.
Trouble is, he constantly has to deal with fuckheads like you.

Bingo | May 29, 2008, 4:09pm | #

mike: But thats why we love Jamie Kelly!

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:10pm | #

Bingo,
If you were in the same room as me, I'd beat your fucking head into the ground.

mike | May 29, 2008, 4:10pm | #

Don't get me wrong Jamie. I think you're funny. You're like a magic 8-ball of filthy phrases or a MadLib filled out by a 10 year old boy.

There is a disconnect | May 29, 2008, 4:10pm | #

I am constantly amazed at the difference between the great writing posted on this site and the asinine comments posted after the articles. The reason staff writers use logic to persuade while the reason readers (who have nothing better than to post to the internet all day) merely throw names around and act out like a five year old with asperger's syndrome. I think I will stop wasting my time looking for insightful comments.

The reason writers make me proud to be libertarian. The reason readers make me not want to throw my lot in with a bunch of inarticulate assholes who seem to just hate all things government. Perhaps you need to join an anarchist website.

Anyway, while the teacher could have handled the situation better by not calling for a vote on his expulsion, there is nothing wrong with teaching kids about empathy and how their actions affect other humans.

Art-P.O.G. | May 29, 2008, 4:12pm | #

Bingo, I find your antipathy toward the handicapped troubling.

brotherben | May 29, 2008, 4:12pm | #

Neu Mejican,
I was thinking about a case here in Alabama a few years ago where a mentally disabled 16 or 17 year old boy, with a long history of disruptive behaviour, had assaulted a busdriver and grabbed the steering wheel. The boy's parents were arguing that he was legally entitled to stay in school because of his disability. If I recall, the school district was being forced by the courts to allow him to remain in regular (not special needs) classes. That is why I mentioned the ADA.

btw, thanks for the link

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 4:13pm | #

And people think I am joking when I advocate for the execution of haters.

With me now Jamie?

tarran | May 29, 2008, 4:13pm | #

Damn, this teacher should be praised - she's giving the kids a head start on a valuable classical education.

val | May 29, 2008, 4:14pm | #

Ok ok children, lets all point out why Fluffy is a twat and then take a vote on wether he should remain in this thread.



---------------------------------------------
Should fluffy continue to be a member of this thread?
yes[ ] no[X]

Comments:
fluffy is a dick who thinks five year olds can actually be 'brutal to teachers'

Cool Cal | May 29, 2008, 4:15pm | #

As I imagine I am not the first to posit, Asperger's, mild as it can be in some cases, tends not to mesh well within the confines of collectivist values. I, myself was a child with some of these traits, but before the preponderance of such diagnoses, and so was referred to as "weird", "introverted", "dick", etc. I had an especially intense aversion to authority figures. I think the point here is that bad behavior is to be punished, whereas what shouldn't be preached or practiced is a mindless slavishness to "community values". Children should learn on their own whether it is worth it for them to fit in or not, whether the costs of not conforming to social norms outweigh the benefits of individuality.

On an aside I am disheartened that so many misinterpret the word "elitism", in the particular context of Obama-rama. While I'm certain most who criticize elitism as such would almost certainly uphold the value of individual achievement in excellence and competition, what is being looked down upon is not excellence, or even elitism per se. It is the fact that a POLITICIAN, in the unique role of government superior, suggests that the lumpenproletariat suffers from false consciousness, and furthermore has no clue about his own economic situation. This is condescension, and in lieu of calling it out as that, it might well be reactionary in language to label as "elitist", but the fault is no less Mr. Obama's.

I don't think anyone would consciously desire a dullard for chief magistrate. But it is quite off-putting when a politician constantly refers to "the working class", "the middle class", even (perish the thought) "the wealthiest" in third person. Americans typically like to be spoken to, man to man. They are, after all, the ones whose votes he needs.

Art-P.O.G. | May 29, 2008, 4:15pm | #

I think I will stop wasting my time looking for insightful comments.
drink? And FWIW, I'm proud to post on the same forums as people like Neu Mexican, TWC, and many others I'm not even going to point out.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:16pm | #

Saw that on Joanne Jacobs site last week, Reynolds is way behind the curve.

The teacher is a bitch and should be fired.

If the kid is a discipline problem then that should be handled in a traditional way not by having his classmates do the equivalent of dance around him in a circle pointing fingers and saying you're a little dickhead

My nephew has a mild form of Aspeberger's as well. He can kick your ass at chess or any computer game and he's 7. Although he's a bit of a handful sometimes I can't imagine him deserving this kind of humiliation.

For another idea, my 6th grade son and two of his friends took the class Aspberger kid and treated him like a human being. Like a friend. It made all the difference in the world, to the kid and to the classroom.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:16pm | #

merely throw names around and act out like a five year old with asperger's syndrome.

Yeah, that was insightful. Asperger's Syndrome, you goddamn queef, doesn't make you prone to hyperactivity. It tends to make you anti-social and lacking of empathy.
Another fucking idiot displaying his bigotry for all to see.
Congratulations, you loser.

ed | May 29, 2008, 4:16pm | #

I want to know who the two kids are who voted against the purge.
My guess is a closet lesbian and that exchange student, Akbar, whom everyone hates.

smacky | May 29, 2008, 4:17pm | #

It's kind of funny to me that 30 years ago, holding an "encounter group session" where the other students told the misbehaving student how they felt about him would have been considered unforgivably "touchy-feely" compared to the traditional discipline of just belting the kid in the head. But now what would once have been "touchy-feely" is considered too harsh!


Fluffy,

You've got to be kidding. Ostracism by peers is way harsh at any time in a person's life, but I think it would have the potential to be really scarring to a person that young. Kindergarteners shouldn't be put on trials. When kids were that disruptive back in my day, we were sent to increasingly higher levels of authority (teacher would send child to principle's office, then a conference with the parents, repeat as necessary; if if gets that bad, possible conference with Supernintendo or possible expulsion.)

I feel sad, too. Now would someone please kick that incompetent teacher in the taco for me. Hard.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:18pm | #

Guy --
I'm with ya. Always have been. :-)

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 4:19pm | #

Should fluffy continue to be a member of this thread?
yes[x] no[ ]

Comment:

Unrestricted free speech is the best method of identifying the people who should be ignored or eliminated.

val | May 29, 2008, 4:19pm | #

Now would someone please kick that incompetent teacher in the taco for me. Hard.

Im pretty sure Jamie Kelly is on that case. It wont be long now.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:20pm | #

http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/26/voted-out-of-kindergarten/

Okay, I guess it was only three days ago, not last week.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:20pm | #

Thanks, smacky.
I'm so worked up I can't even think straight, so I appreciate your cool-headedness.

val | May 29, 2008, 4:21pm | #

Montag, you will support me or be next on the chopping block.

Warren | May 29, 2008, 4:22pm | #

What this teach did was give her class a careful methodical lesson in how to discriminate.

1) Find someone different
2) Be inconvenience by their difference
3) Find solidarity with others similarly inconvenienced
4) Promote intolerance of the minority as precondition for acceptance by the majority
5) Get a rope

That woman David Duke evil.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:22pm | #

Im pretty sure Jamie Kelly is on that case. It wont be long now.

Let's put it this way: That smegma-encrusted twat has severely tested my own, personal non-aggression principle.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:23pm | #

Warren wins the thread.

James Anderson Merritt | May 29, 2008, 4:24pm | #

To "There is a Disconnect": It's not unthinkable that many of the posters here are simply personae, who comment as they do to "liven up" the reader part of the forum. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that several personae belong to a single individual, or a even a single dog.

That said, even some posters, whom I suspect of being fictional, have posted many an insightful comment. So keep reading. The reason guys get paid to persuade, so their signal-to-noise ratio had better be a LOT higher than we find in the reader comment section. Unless some of the personae are shills, all except the Reason staffers are just here for the entertainment.

smacky | May 29, 2008, 4:24pm | #

No problem, Jamie. Thank you for being probably one of the few people who make me appear cool-headed. :)

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 4:26pm | #

val,

Beware the AttackCrows.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:26pm | #

Art-P.O.G.,

Gracias!

Now, step right over here and let me buy you a drink, my man.

:-)

Douglas Gray | May 29, 2008, 4:27pm | #

This really shows some of the bankruptcy inherent in the public school system. In a privatized system, this school would quickly get a reputation as a lousey school, with crummy teachers and students without a sense of decency.

ChicagoTom | May 29, 2008, 4:28pm | #

I'd just like to add that I agree with Jamie Kelly, 100%

P Brooks | May 29, 2008, 4:28pm | #

I would like to know what happens after the kid gets voted out.

Does he get sent off to work in a coal mine? Does he get traded to another classroom for two girls, and a dead goldfish to be named later?
What?

Marcvs | May 29, 2008, 4:29pm | #

Jamie, I just wanted to let you know that my disgust was at the same level as yours, if not voiced as colorfully.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:29pm | #

Warren makes excellent sense and I'll go you one further. This whole incident came to fruition as a result of America's fetish with democracy.

From Kindergarten on we teach our kids that if they got a problem they should call their Congressman, because the government can solve every problem. Lesson two is all you got to do is vote. Vote. Vote. Vote. On anything and everything. Majority wins.

MP | May 29, 2008, 4:30pm | #

The article didn't make it clear if the teacher actually had the student removed as a result of the vote. The student may have simply left class after being publicly embarrassed. That's a crucial detail.

If this was simply an exercise in public humiliation, I kinda agree with fluffy. It can have it's place.

Besides, I suspect the kids were making their preferences known on the playground anyhow.

Episiarch | May 29, 2008, 4:30pm | #

Jamie, lighten up. This may be somewhat personal for you but Bingo is yanking your chain, and hard, mainly because you let him.

I am one of those who believes that everything, no matter how sad or depressing, can and should be made fun of. That includes me and things that are personal for me as well.

So, in that vein:

Sara Blank: What I'd like to know is, why are there retarded people in school with my daughter?

Principal Onyx Blackman: Mrs. Blank, we're doing our best to weed them out, but some of these retards are extremely clever.

Guy Montag | May 29, 2008, 4:30pm | #

Does he get sent off to work in a coal mine?

That is what happens if they get cancer and have to go to the Don Imus ranch.

Chris Potter | May 29, 2008, 4:31pm | #

I don't know how a 5-year-old would feel, but I don't think I'd want to remain in a class after 90% of them just explained why they hate me...

The voting, while silly, is hardly the worst part.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:33pm | #

Marcvs, Jamie never fails me. :-) Funny stuff, indeed.

James Anderson Merritt

I long suspected some of these guys to be one in the same. Actually was quite sure that three or four of them were one guy. I was quite surprised to learn that they were all different people.

That said, there ARE some ringers hanging around here. Caught a couple of them.....

:-)

Chris Potter | May 29, 2008, 4:33pm | #

The real question, though, is did the votes of the kids in the densely-populated parts of the classroom count as much as those in the sparsely-populated areas?

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:34pm | #

Epi,
I've calmed down now.
And trust me, we joke about our son's condition all the time. Helps lighten the load.
Q: What do you get an Asperger's child for his birthday?
A: A friend who can be bought.

MP | May 29, 2008, 4:35pm | #

The real question, though, is did the votes of the kids in the densely-populated parts of the classroom count as much as those in the sparsely-populated areas?

The votes in crayon weren't counted. Only #2 pencil.

brotherben | May 29, 2008, 4:35pm | #

Jamie says Aspergers causes kids to be anti-social and lacking in empathy. By that yardstick, wouldn't all the little shitters that voted him out qualify?

DJ Voton | May 29, 2008, 4:36pm | #

It was bound to happen: the fusion of reality TV and reality.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 4:37pm | #

The article didn't make it clear if the teacher actually had the student removed as a result of the vote. The student may have simply left class after being publicly embarrassed. That's a crucial detail.

The crucial detail is that the child was so traumatized by the ordeal that when his parents tried driving him to school he went into hysterics at the sight of the school.

[turns and spits]

As I said upthread, if the child needed discipline he should have been disciplined.

[Insert any of Jaime's colorful phrases right here]

As I also said up thread, my 11 year old son has a problem Aspergers kid in his class. They took a different tack. It was called treating him like a HUMAN BEING. It worked out pretty well.

brotherben | May 29, 2008, 4:40pm | #

"...is this the kinda retard that drools a lot and rubs shit in his hair? Cause if it is, I'm gonna have a hard time eatin around that..."

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 4:43pm | #

TWC is correct.
The one thing that has really helped our son is more socialization, not ostracism.
Voting this particular boy out of the classroom and allowing his peers to publicly humiliate him is child abuse, and should be treated as such.
My sentence for the teacher unfortunately un-aborted hog dick: Fired immediately, hung up by the clit in a public square and beaten with farm equipment like a pinata until her innards spill out.

MP | May 29, 2008, 4:45pm | #

The crucial detail is that the child was so traumatized by the ordeal that when his parents tried driving him to school he went into hysterics at the sight of the school.

He's five. He'll get over it.

Or he'll go all UVA in college.

The only reason this makes the paper is that the parent threatened a (baseless) lawsuit. Maybe public humiliation isn't the best approach. But I'm failing to see where all the invectiveness against the teacher is justified. Big friggin' deal.

MP | May 29, 2008, 4:46pm | #

Voting this particular boy out of the classroom and allowing his peers to publicly humiliate him is child abuse, and should be treated as such.

Rhetoric alert!

P Brooks | May 29, 2008, 4:56pm | #

The real lesson here, which was doubtless not lost on his classmates:

Conform, at all costs- you might be next!

A Merkin Idle | May 29, 2008, 4:57pm | #

I suggest Jamie Kelly change his handle to The Fine Commonswearer.

Jamie Kelly | May 29, 2008, 5:03pm | #

From wikipedia:
Anxiety may stem from ... concern with failing in social encounters;the resulting stress may manifest as inattention, withdrawal, reliance on obsessions, hyperactivity, or aggressive or oppositional behavior. Depression is often the result of chronic frustration from repeated failure to engage others socially, and mood disorders requiring treatment may develop.
MP: So tell me again how the teacher's actions don't constitute child abuse?

Number 6 | May 29, 2008, 5:03pm | #

Constantly amazed: While I tend to agree with your dislike of the tone of comments here, you really should be careful. Praising the Reason staff for using logic and then making a sweeping generalization about Reason readers based on the comments section of H&R just makes you look silly.

The teacher's actions are repugnant. Children, even more than adults, tend to form herds and do ugly things to outsiders. Encouraging that sort of behavior is disgusting.

Mike | May 29, 2008, 5:05pm | #

democracy *is* the dark side..

James J. B. | May 29, 2008, 5:07pm | #

The Teacher is a clown. If you are the adult in a room full of children, you must remain the adult. Just because life is tough sometimes, you don't get a license to be a dick.

Lastly, even if the child, key word here CHILD, is a jerk - you as the adult must lead by example - by not getting emotional, irrational, etc.

Case Closed.

MP | May 29, 2008, 5:19pm | #

MP: So tell me again how the teacher's actions don't constitute child abuse?

From the NH state statutes:

"Abused child'' means any child who has been:
(a) Sexually abused; or
(b) Intentionally physically injured; or
(c) Psychologically injured so that said child exhibits symptoms of emotional problems generally recognized to result from consistent mistreatment or neglect; or
(d) Physically injured by other than accidental means.


So tell he how the teacher's actions are "consistent mistreatment or neglect".

Unless, of course, you're claiming that the kid is getting fucked. Then maybe (a) applies.

J sub D | May 29, 2008, 5:23pm | #

5 years old. The poor child is 5 friggin' years old. Maybe his parents are assholes. So what? Maybe the child disrupts class. So what?
5 years old is tough enough. 5 years old with a disability is even tougher. 5 years old with a disability being made an outcast by an authority figure is unconscionable. The woman is morally unfit to be teaching children. She not only harmed the Aspergers child, she harmed every other child in the room.

5 friggin' years old.

OO====D | May 29, 2008, 5:23pm | #

"And FWIW, I'm proud to post on the same forums as people like Neu Mexican, TWC, and many others I'm not even going to point out."

Thanks!

Number 6 | May 29, 2008, 5:23pm | #

MP-A case could be made for C.

Michael Ejercito | May 29, 2008, 5:24pm | #

The kid needs to learn to change his behavior to conform to other people.

J sub D | May 29, 2008, 5:26pm | #

But I'm failing to see where all the invectiveness against the teacher is justified. Big friggin' deal.

It's a compassion for those who are unfortunate thingee. I got mine included with the basic humanity package. You opted out?

Number 6 | May 29, 2008, 5:26pm | #

Besides, I suspect the kids were making their preferences known on the playground anyhow.
In what way does that justify the teacher's actions?

Jim | May 29, 2008, 5:27pm | #

Smacky,


Are you still as pretty as ever?

swillfredo pareto | May 29, 2008, 5:29pm | #

But I'm failing to see where all the invectiveness against the teacher is justified. Big friggin' deal.

It is a big deal to me because as a Florida resident I am forced to pay for the public school system. She is in no way empowered to act the way she did, and the system and the union exist to make sure she will not be held accountable for her actions. That and I sympathize with any 5 year-old who is mistreated, regardless of the circumstances.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 5:32pm | #

MP, trotting out the LAW to define whether or not the teacher's behavior constitutes child abuse? The Law? The same law that says gays can't marry? The same law that says 19 year olds can fire M-60's at the enemy but can't get a beer when it's Miller Time? The same law that says you can get laid for money on camera but you can't buy sex from a street vendor?

The technicality of any law, whether poorly written or not is largely irrelevant to the question of abusive behavior.

When Jamie threatens to beat your face into a bloody pulp, that is pretty clearly abusive, but it certainly isn't illegal unless he shows up at your door with a baseball bat and starts yelling. That then becomes Assault. After he breaks down the door and beats your face in, it has morphed into Battery.

JW | May 29, 2008, 5:34pm | #

The only reason this makes the paper is that the parent threatened a (baseless) lawsuit.

Is this lawsuit worthy? No. Should this [insert jamiekellyism here] be fired? Yep. And hard.

Maybe public humiliation isn't the best approach. But I'm failing to see where all the invectiveness against the teacher is justified. Big friggin' deal.

You must have had a much better childhood than most of us did. I have very vivid memories of how cruel kids can be and how growing up is bad enough without shit-addled teachers playing pile-on to a kid who can't really control his behavior.

My daughter, while she doesn't have Asperger's, has a lot of the same traits and is juuuuuust this far from a full-on diagnosis. Let me tell you, it's worse than any other behavioral disorder a kid can have. You seem perfectly normal, except for the very hard to define behavioral issues. One of the hallmarks of Asperger's are socialization issues and having a very hard time making and keeping friends.

There's no test, no cure. Everyone assumes you just have some fucking brat for a kid and that you suck as a parent. No and no. It's fucking exhausting for the parent and a fairly shitty ride for the kid too.

And "being a dick" isn't a disorder; it's just a personality quirk. That said, all hail Maddox.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 5:38pm | #

The one thing that has really helped our son is more socialization, not ostracism.
Voting this particular boy out of the classroom and allowing his peers to publicly humiliate him is child abuse, and should be treated as such.


Jamie, let me ask you something: if the classroom discussion had not included the "vote of removal", but had simply consisted of a time period where the other students told a student who had been disruptive how his behavior made them feel, would you still consider this "child abuse"?

Even for kids with a developmental disability, I don't see how you expect a kid to learn empathy or appropriate social reactions if the other kids aren't allowed to express their feelings to them in a controlled setting.

Your own link indicates that the "social stress" may manifest itself as aggressive or oppositional behavior. I don't know the kid's underwear size, but if he behaves aggressively because he doesn't have the proper social skills or empathy for his age, why is it child abuse for the teacher to have his peers interact with him about it? [In a non-physical way, of course.]

Sorry, it sounds like you have a difficult personal situation that you're dealing with, but you're having exactly the reaction I thought I divined in this kid's parents - because their son's behavioral and personality problems have been labelled a syndrome, now they're everyone else's problem, and heaven forbid the other kids who have to deal with it be encouraged to say something about it. Because after all, emotional expression is for the disabled only, and social adjustment consists of non-disabled kids learning that if some kid with a syndrome hits or bites them, they should just shut up and endure it.

Russ 2000 | May 29, 2008, 5:43pm | #

Haven't read all the posts but...

one way to socialize someone who is disrupting that community is to create communication where the other members of that community tell the disrupter how their behavior makes them feel

... is not going to make one bit of a difference to someone with Asperger's.

MP | May 29, 2008, 5:43pm | #

A case could be made for C.

I specifically referred to (c), which requires more than a single incident (thus the word "consistent").

In what way does that justify the teacher's actions?

It doesn't justify the actions. But it does say that the sum total of this child's frustration with school is unlikely to be attributed to this particular act.

I got mine included with the basic humanity package. You opted out?

They were offering a no-frills reduced rate package.

She is in no way empowered to act the way she did

Oh really? Did she kick the child out of her class, or did she just embarrass him out of her class? What exactly is she "empowered" to do?

I'm still not seeing why making a child aware that his peers have an issue with his behavior makes the teacher Satan. Sure, there's probably better ways to go about it. But the "hang the bitch by the toenails" sentiment is something I'm not connecting with.

JW | May 29, 2008, 5:46pm | #

because their son's behavioral and personality problems have been labelled a syndrome, now they're everyone else's problem, and heaven forbid the other kids who have to deal with it be encouraged to say something about it.

Where did anyone say that? Fluffy, it's pretty clear to me: what this teacher did is unacceptable to ANY 5 year old, let alone one with Asperger's. Don't conflate an objection to this instance with a blank check.

Because after all, emotional expression is for the disabled only, and social adjustment consists of non-disabled kids learning that if some kid with a syndrome hits or bites them, they should just shut up and endure it.

Nope. But traumatizing a 5 year old kid is not the answer either.

MP | May 29, 2008, 5:47pm | #

MP, trotting out the LAW to define whether or not the teacher's behavior constitutes child abuse?

Yes, because the phrase "child abuse" implies a legal construct, particularly when the commenter who used the phrase says "should be treated as such", which clearly implies legal action.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 5:50pm | #

MP, the fact that human beings have the capacity to get over trauma is a remarkable testament to character or biology or both.

And, as Akira Mackenzie has mentioned a time or two on these pages, not everyone is 100% successful at "getting over it".

Although there are legions of folks who need to take Henley's advice and GET OVER IT, the fact that they can GET OVER IT is not an excuse to treat them badly or to overlook nasty behavior on the part of tax-paid public servant whose job it is to educate students.

JW | May 29, 2008, 5:52pm | #

I'm still not seeing why making a child aware that his peers have an issue with his behavior makes the teacher Satan. Sure, there's probably better ways to go about it. But the "hang the bitch by the toenails" sentiment is something I'm not connecting with.

Have a kid, especially one with a hard-to-define behavioral disorder. Then watch a first class fuckhead of a teacher fry his undeveloped psyche, leaving you to clean up the mess. You'll get it then.

MP | May 29, 2008, 5:52pm | #

Nope. But traumatizing a 5 year old kid is not the answer either.

Yes, cause clearly, having your peers be honest about their feelings is always "traumatizing". I mean, to think that the kid might stop, listen, and change their behavior?

No, that's just crazy talk.

From fluffy's original comment, this bears repeating:

It's kind of funny to me that 30 years ago, holding an "encounter group session" where the other students told the misbehaving student how they felt about him would have been considered unforgivably "touchy-feely" compared to the traditional discipline of just belting the kid in the head. But now what would once have been "touchy-feely" is considered too harsh!

MP | May 29, 2008, 5:54pm | #

the part of tax-paid public servant whose job it is to educate students.

So when they're spending all of their time dealing with the disruptive behavior of one student, and neglecting to educate the other 16, are they doing their job?

swillfredo pareto | May 29, 2008, 5:55pm | #

Oh really? Did she kick the child out of her class, or did she just embarrass him out of her class? What exactly is she "empowered" to do?

Here is the Florida Department of Education Code of Ethics for Educators:

http://www.fldoe.org/edstandards/code_of_ethics.asp

If you don't think she violated 6B-1.001 1, 2 and 3 then this conversation is pointless.

JW | May 29, 2008, 5:59pm | #

Yes, cause clearly, having your peers be honest about their feelings is always "traumatizing". I mean, to think that the kid might stop, listen, and change their behavior?

Yes, because we all know that public humiliation and authority-led ostrasization is always the way to go with 5 year olds. Works every time. Works so well that he screams bloody hell at the thought of going to school. Mission accomplished!

So, with this logic, Radley's no-knock, paramilitary raids to capture non-violent drug offenders are A-OK with you? I mean, it seems that with you the method isn't important, just the message.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 5:59pm | #

Where did anyone say that? Fluffy, it's pretty clear to me: what this teacher did is unacceptable to ANY 5 year old, let alone one with Asperger's. Don't conflate an objection to this instance with a blank check.

Wow. You have to be kidding me. Remove the element of disability here, and I won't even make the half-hearted efforts to meet you halfway that I have made so far.

Let's contemplate how a similar scene might actually look:

A group of 5 students are playing in a kindergarten setting. One of the kids repeatedly becomes frustrated when the other kids interfere with the pattern he's arranging toys into, or when they don't respond to statements he makes to them that are in an extremely idiosyncratic speech pattern. In his frustration, he engages in a pattern of hitting or biting the other students.

After one outburst, the teacher is trying to decide whether to send the [non-disabled] kid to the principal's office yet again. Before doing so, she sits all the kids down in a circle, and asks the four "behaving" students to tell the "misbehaving" [non-disabled] student how they feel about him and about the way he acts. She then asks the four "behaving" students, "Do you think this sort of behavior should get you sent to the principal's office?" and 3 of the 4 kids say "yes".

The teacher then sends the kid to the principal's office, having added some communication to the tired routine of sending the kid out of class.

Child abuse?

I don't think it's child abuse, sorry.

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:02pm | #

If you don't think she violated 6B-1.001 1, 2 and 3 then this conversation is pointless.

I missed the part in the original news article where the teacher explained her reasoning for all of the world to evaluate. If she felt that it was in the best interest of this student to expose him to the feelings of his peers, how is it she violated the code of ethics?

Works so well that he screams bloody hell at the thought of going to school.

'cause clearly every single child will react to the situation in an identical manner as this one.

Lost_In_Translation | May 29, 2008, 6:07pm | #

Lord of the Flies comes to Suburbia...atleast he wasn't eaten...

J sub D | May 29, 2008, 6:08pm | #

Oh really? Did she kick the child out of her class, or did she just embarrass him out of her class? What exactly is she "empowered" to do?
Here is the Florida Department of Education Code of Ethics for Educators:

http://www.fldoe.org/edstandards/code_of_ethics.asp

If you don't think she violated 6B-1.001 1, 2 and 3 then this conversation is pointless.
Screw that. If you don't think the woman violated the norms of compassionate civilized behavior, this discussion is pointless.

He's 5 friggin' years old. She's a college educated credentialed educator. She is allegedly an adult as well.

val | May 29, 2008, 6:09pm | #

Yes, cause clearly, having your peers be honest about their feelings is always "traumatizing". I mean, to think that the kid might stop, listen, and change their behavior?

Damn dude, he has fuckin Asperger's, is that so difficult to comprehed. He wont stop, listen and change his behavior. He especially wont stop where he is put in a social confrontation which pits him against 14 classmates (who he already has a hard time dealing with 1 on 1) and a twat of a teacher. Also he is fuckin FIVE. Thats a bit too early to try any kind of confrontational group therapy even on a normal child of that age.

'cause clearly every single child will react to the situation in an identical manner as this one.

No, but pretty much every child with Asperger's will react in a similar manner. Infact that's how they are diagnosed and grouped into disorders, by the similarity of their symptoms.

I think you might as well come out and say that you do not beleive that this child has Aperger's or that Asperger's is not a 'real' disorder. Maybe you beleive that this five year old is truly just being an asshole, cause thats the only way I can see your arguments making sense.

JW | May 29, 2008, 6:10pm | #

Wow. You have to be kidding me. Remove the element of disability here, and I won't even make the half-hearted efforts to meet you halfway that I have made so far.

Well, then all I can say is thank god you're not a teacher. The complete lack of empathy that you are demonstrating is just fucking cold.

He'S FUCKING FIVE. Do you really know what that means? Think about that and get back to us.

Let's contemplate how a similar scene might actually look:

That's all fine and well and if you did that as my kid's teacher, we'd be having a very different conversation.

If you did what this teacher did? Fuck the lawyers. I'd bring Jamie with me and a pair of pliers.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 6:13pm | #

But val, that contradicts everything the "mainstreaming" movement in education says. The only reason "mainstreaming" would make any sense is if the kid is going to benefit from being socialized with - and by - his peers.

Why in fuck are we mainstreaming kids with developmental disabilities, if we don't believe that encountering normally-abled kids will help them overcome those disabilities, at least a little?

Why would a kid with Asperger's or HFA benefit from being in a class with "normal" kids, if social interaction with those kids isn't supposed to help "normalize" their behavior?

What's the point?

The teacher didn't have the other kids beat this kid with a pipe for being different. She had them talk to him. If that's a trauma and a horror, what the fuck was the point of him being there in the first place?

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 6:14pm | #

So when they're spending all of their time dealing with the disruptive behavior of one student, and neglecting to educate the other 16, are they doing their job?

For the THIRD time today, if there is a behavior or a discipline problem than it should be dealt with using ordinary channels provided for in the rulebook on the principal's desk.

Got a problem with the kid? Send the kid to the office.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 6:15pm | #

That's all fine and well and if you did that as my kid's teacher, we'd be having a very different conversation.

My point is that the scene I described could very easily be reported in the press as "Kindergarten teacher has students vote child out of class". That headline would be a completely accurate description of what took place.

And if the kid had a psycho parent, that's exactly how the headline would read.

JW | May 29, 2008, 6:16pm | #

'cause clearly every single child will react to the situation in an identical manner as this one.

What val said. QTF.

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 6:17pm | #

Fluff, Kindergarten is not a participatory democracy and the students should not be running the asylum.

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:22pm | #

Fluff, Kindergarten is not a participatory democracy and the students should not be running the asylum.

And again, you're assuming that the child was ejected from the classroom as a result of his peers revealing their preference.

What if he simply left?

Oh, I know...she was out of line by having a public forum where the classmates revealed their feelings. So then it doesn't matter about this Democracy angle, does it.

Is the issue that she kicked the child out of her classroom (which is completely unsubstantiated) or that she hurt his feelings by making him aware that the other kids felt he was a pain in the ass?

JW | May 29, 2008, 6:26pm | #

My point is that the scene I described could very easily be reported in the press as "Kindergarten teacher has students vote child out of class". That headline would be a completely accurate description of what took place.

But, that's not what happened and wishing it doesn't make it so.

This teacher pretty much fucked up as much as a Kindergarten teacher could, short of physical abuse. She didn't recognize the signs of a well known behsvioral disorder and it's fairly obvious she (is it a she?) didn't consult the parents for their assistance with their kid. That's standard these days.

JW | May 29, 2008, 6:32pm | #

Is the issue that she kicked the child out of her classroom (which is completely unsubstantiated) or that she hurt his feelings by making him aware that the other kids felt he was a pain in the ass?

Do you really not understand the problem yet? Seriously?

I think a number of us have explained it fairly clearly by now.

Nick M. | May 29, 2008, 6:34pm | #

MP,

In one of your previous statements, you mentioned the original article. Did you perhaps catch the part the parents were already working with the school on the child's issues. They had had meetings, which were attended by the teacher, about creating a plan to deal with the kid.

Do you agree that, given these circumstances, that the teacher was out of line to do this without involving the parents, principal, others involved in the meeting?

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:35pm | #

I think a number of us have explained it fairly clearly by now.

Sure. You've made your case. And I don't think much of it.

Famous Mortimer | May 29, 2008, 6:35pm | #

It's always fun to read responses to stories like this on Libertarian sites. It really brings out the typical IT, sociopathic traits in people.

I'm actually surprised by the number of people believe that what the teacher did was wrong. There may be hope. Although, the fact that this involves a public school teacher might explain the source of the support.

You know, kind of like Libertarians who suddenly develop a social conscience about war because it involves tax dollars.

As much as I love this site, it really is full of bitter cranks who wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it jumped up and offered to take their virginity.

But you ladies entertain me.

anomdebus | May 29, 2008, 6:38pm | #

It's kind of funny to me that 30 years ago, holding an "encounter group session" where the other students told the misbehaving student how they felt about him would have been considered unforgivably "touchy-feely" compared to the traditional discipline of just belting the kid in the head. But now what would once have been "touchy-feely" is considered too harsh!

I really don't think ostracism is "touchy-feely". Is the pillory "touchy-feely" because people are encouraged to express their displeasure toward the offender? Is tar and feathering "touchy-feely" because it similarly encourages people to express themselves and show that behavior the majority dislikes is not appropriate? I am in no way suggesting that this situation rises to that level, however, I don't think you can, without more information, say was merely "touchy-feely".

Btw, I think at issue is how many adults were present at the time. The answer was apparently zero (ie: number of people acting like adults) It is the teacher's responsibility to maintain order, not steer the "rabble" to do their dirty work.

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:39pm | #

Do you agree that, given these circumstances, that the teacher was out of line to do this without involving the parents, principal, others involved in the meeting?

I think it's unrealistic to believe that the principal and the parents are going to be able to participate in every action that occurs in the classroom. The teacher most likely responded to a situation on the fly. It's not like she had ballots printed.

J sub D | May 29, 2008, 6:42pm | #

Jamie kelly,

I just want to say that you displayed superb foul penned invective today. Take a bow.

Vanessa | May 29, 2008, 6:42pm | #

Wow - some people are downright steadfast in their ignorance.

Good post at Daily Kos:

Wendy Portillo's crime was not that she had a student with whom she could not cope. That is no crime. It was not punishing him for his behavior. That is no crime. It was foregoing the clearly enumerated process in order to take matters into her own hands and incite her students to subject a young boy to the schoolyard equivalent of a jeering mob.

For that, there should be severe consequences.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/26/0832/37333/902/522855

anomdebus | May 29, 2008, 6:46pm | #

NB: I used my examples with some hyperbole, but the tar and feather example probably detracts from the argument. I was looking for an analogue to "running out of town".

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:49pm | #

I'm amused by the fact that Daily Kos's primary beef was that she didn't follow the manual.

Vanessa | May 29, 2008, 6:57pm | #

I think you're amused by belittling the problem.

KMW, can we take a vote on MP and his friends? They're loud, they smell bad, and they wear really old clothes.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 7:03pm | #

But, that's not what happened and wishing it doesn't make it so.

With all due respect, JW, you have absolutely no fucking way of knowing that my scenario isn't EXACTLY what happened, only with 15 kids instead of 5.

When I read the description of the event in the paper, and try to actually place it in a modern kindergarten class in my head, my scenario is what I see.

You and Jamie, OTOH, see the last ten minutes of Carrie.

Frankly, I think my version is eminently plausible, and fits what we have been told about the incident just as much as yours. If anything, mine is more plausible, because it doesn't require us to imagine that a kindergarten teacher would dump a bucket of pig's blood on some kid's head.

Nick M. | May 29, 2008, 7:07pm | #

MP | May 29, 2008, 6:39pm | #

Do you agree that, given these circumstances, that the teacher was out of line to do this without involving the parents, principal, others involved in the meeting?

I think it's unrealistic to believe that the principal and the parents are going to be able to participate in every action that occurs in the classroom. The teacher most likely responded to a situation on the fly. It's not like she had ballots printed.
I agree that it is unrealistic to believe that the parents and principal can participate in every classroom situation. I also agree that, based upon the standards for emotional abuse that you provided, this does not merit a lawsuit for that.

However, based on the fact that steps were being taken, which the teacher was involved in, there is definitely room for disciplinary action. Also, from I have read about IEP's, they essentially layout rights and responsibilties of all parties involved, so there may indeed be a civil rights case.

MP | May 29, 2008, 7:14pm | #

Also, from I have read about IEP's, they essentially layout rights and responsibilties of all parties involved, so there may indeed be a civil rights case.

Oh my...now we have people defending IEP's.

If you want to know why public schools cost 8 million times more than they used to, spend some time studying IEP's and the consequential civil torts they engender.

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 7:16pm | #

Mortimer, you are a cock.

And you don't understand the meaning of the words you use.

I'm actually taking the communitarian position here. Something I hardly ever do, so I know when I'm doing it.

There's nothing "sociopathic" about my position at all.

I'm taking the position that the class is a community, and that if one member of the community is disruptive, it isn't abusive for the others to communicate with him about it. Even if that communication is negative. How else is the kid supposed to know? Especially if his ability to read nonverbal social cues is defective.

How is that the "sociopathic" position, and how does "my kid has a card that says he has a syndrome, so he can do whatever he wants and the community exists to serve him and his development, and everybody else better shut up," represent the non-sociopathic position?

The Wine Commonsewer | May 29, 2008, 7:25pm | #

MP, your response to my remark had nothing to do with the remark itself. It had to do with Fluffy's hypothetical creation upthread. That isn't your fault, I wasn't clear.

However, had you read the story, you would know the reason why the child did not return to school.

J | May 29, 2008, 7:26pm | #

Wow. A lot of silly things said here:

If you think that something like that might be remotely effective with an ASD kid, you've obviously never known one.

Also: I would prefer getting hit with a ruler over having my whole class bad mouth me now, nevermind when I was 5 and if I had trouble with others already. I think that as a punishment that is harsher than most other things that are mainstream. Kids are mean and all (and also very selfless and nice sometimes) but the teacher doesn't have to act like a mean 5 year old.

Being a teacher isn't an easy job. I worked as one for a summer (ASD kids though, so different) and I know I wouldn't want to do it. Someone like that shouldn't be teaching though: they don't have what it takes.

Also, despite enjoying my public schooling when I was growing up, I would never want to deny people educational choice for that very reason. I had from OK to excellent teachers, the opposite is often true though.

Steve Verdon | May 29, 2008, 7:31pm | #

Fluffy,

You're an asshole.

Nick M. | May 29, 2008, 7:38pm | #

MP | May 29, 2008, 7:14pm | #

Also, from I have read about IEP's, they essentially layout rights and responsibilties of all parties involved, so there may indeed be a civil rights case.

Oh my...now we have people defending IEP's.

If you want to know why public schools cost 8 million times more than they used to, spend some time studying IEP's and the consequential civil torts they engender.
Nope, not defending. My knowledge of them is extremely limited. I read about them on Wikipedia and the entry is extremely pro-IEP, with no discussion whatsoever about disadvantages. And this case seems be a perfect example of "the consequential civil torts they engender."

That said, given that this is a public school, which the parents are forced to pay for no matter what, this is the system we are left with. The teacher acted outside of this system's guidelines, and should be disciplined at the very least.

We can argue about the legitimacy of the public school system, and whether this child would be better served by a private school that specializes in special needs students another day.

Ayn_Randian | May 29, 2008, 7:39pm | #

I'm taking the position that the class is a community, and that if one member of the community is disruptive, it isn't abusive for the others to communicate with him about it.

Classes aren't communities. Kids don't get to have a say of who gets to be there. Any retard teacher who elevates the viciousness of children to classroom policy should be fired.

Classrooms are there for children to learn. Teachers are there to teach. Classrooms are not little mini-communities; they should be benevolent dictatorships, where the teacher is in charge.

MP | May 29, 2008, 7:49pm | #

However, had you read the story, you would know the reason why the child did not return to school.

I RTFA, and the child doesn't go back to school because the child doesn't want to go back to school.

And my question was specific to the circumstances. People are treating this situation as if the child was ejected from the classroom, by the teacher, as a result of the vote. There is no evidence to back this supposition.

isildur | May 29, 2008, 7:52pm | #

Fluffy, are you being deliberately obtuse? There is a difference between 'other kids let him know how they feel' and 'other kids are invited, under color of authority from the teacher, to inventory everything they don't like about him'.

They're really not comparable situations at all.

First, there's the authority thing. It's one thing to have a kid be mean to you. It's quite another to have a kid be mean to you with the approval of the only present authority figure.

Second, there's the public thing. One of the creepiest and most stifling innovations of the Puritans was the notion of the public confession. Individuals are capable of compassion and understanding. People, collectively, are a herd waiting to stampede. And kindergarteners are even more herd-like, because they already live under unquestionable authority. If the authority figure says 'hate this person', they do so. Or do you really think there are 5-year-old John Galts out there nobly standing against a classroom full of their peers, declaring it's morally wrong to hate the teacher's chosen target?

You can try to dress this up in terms like 'community', but the truth is, a teacher invited kids who were too young to know any better to humiliate and shame another kid.

Tangent: Every time you say 'the class is a community' it gives me heartburn. Because it's not a fucking community -- it's supposed to be a learning environment, and whether or not I fit into the social structure of the classroom should be irrelevant. I don't want to send my kid to become part of some arbitrary community of strangers. I went through that myself, I know who those people are, and my life is enriched greatly by my ability, as an adult, to choose the people I include in my own personal community -- and exclude the douchebags who comprised that community for most of my childhood. The only thing I ever learned from that supposed 'community' was a well-honed hatred for most other human beings.

JW | May 29, 2008, 7:53pm | #

Sure. You've made your case. And I don't think much of it.

That's nice.

Really, if you don't understand about what Asperger's is, just ask. You don't need to be all passive-aggressive.

People are treating this situation as if the child was ejected from the classroom, by the teacher, as a result of the vote.

OK, you're just being a troll now. Or deliberately obtuse. You choose.

JW | May 29, 2008, 8:09pm | #

With all due respect, JW, you have absolutely no fucking way of knowing that my scenario isn't EXACTLY what happened, only with 15 kids instead of 5.

Wow. Just wow.

For the last time, the kid is FUCKING FIVE. He's not some surly emo kid raising a ruckus in the 10th grade english. You don't publicly humiliate and ostracize a very young child who doesn't even know how to tie his own shoes or even his left from right, let alone one you *know* has a behavioral disorder. She's an incompetant fuck who made an extraordinarily bad decision.

Frankly, I think my version is eminently plausible, and fits what we have been told about the incident just as much as yours. If anything, mine is more plausible, because it doesn't require us to imagine that a kindergarten teacher would dump a bucket of pig's blood on some kid's head.

Hyperbole and wishful thinking don't change anything.

If you and MP just. don't. get it. by now as to *why* what this teacher did is wrong, then there really isn't much more to say.

Chris Potter | May 29, 2008, 8:17pm | #

People are treating this situation as if the child was ejected from the classroom, by the teacher, as a result of the vote. There is no evidence to back this supposition.

The vote was definitely held, as the teacher confirmed this. Now, is it plausible to believe that, after the vote was held, the FIVE YEAR OLD student would have felt free to remain in the class?

Note to everyone besides Fluffy & MP: You can take a horse to water...

Fluffy | May 29, 2008, 8:18pm | #

A group of 5 students are playing in a kindergarten setting. One of the kids repeatedly becomes frustrated when the other kids interfere with the pattern he's arranging toys into, or when they don't respond to statements he makes to them that are in an extremely idiosyncratic speech pattern. In his frustration, he engages in a pattern of hitting or biting the other students.

After one outburst, the teacher is trying to decide whether to send the [non-disabled] kid to the principal's office yet again. Before doing so, she sits all the kids down in a circle, and asks the four "behaving" students to tell the "misbehaving" [non-disabled] student how they feel about him and about the way he acts. She then asks the four "behaving" students, "Do you think this sort of behavior should get you sent to the principal's office?" and 3 of the 4 kids say "yes".

The teacher then sends the kid to the principal's office, having added some communication to the tired routine of sending the kid out of class.


I still say this is probably the closest description of what really happened in the class, and I'm waiting for a description of what was wrong with it that doesn't sound like some of the nerds around here are projecting their childhood unhappiness or social isolation on the situation.

I ordinarily would not take a communitarian view of education either, but we're talking about a kindergarten class when I would bet that 90% of the "education" is simply socialization play. That means that if the teacher is trying to get a child to play more nicely with the other children, she is in fact "teaching", in the context of a kindergarten class.

And I'm not particularly impressed with the aversion here to "shame" teaching, because I don't believe that you can usefully distinguish between socialization activity that teaches you that other people have feelings and won't like you if you abuse them, and "shaming". "You shouldn't hit Johnny, because it makes him not like you. Isn't that right, Johnny?" "Yes, that's right, I don't like you. You're not my friend." Is that shaming, or is it te