...right here. The salon on Barack Obama and small town American vileness can continue there. Why didn't I have anything to say on the story on Friday? I was speeding through rural Pennsylvania, catching Ron Paul's final campaign appearances before the Pennsylvania primary for a story that will appear on Monday. That's me standing to the far right of the stage, craning my neck, in this photo.
Do I have anything to add to what Michael wrote? Agreement, and some additions.
- One conservative take on the story is that Obama is finally revealing his character, and that you can draw a line straight from his father to Jeremiah Wright to attacking small town white America. Let's assume that's true. We only found this out because someone taped a closed-door fundraiser. So why do we cover anything but closed-door fundraisers? The rest—speeches, debates, long sit-down interviews—obviously isn't that illuminating.
- If this is how Obama views the effects of lost manufacturing jobs, his anti-free trade campaigning in the rust belt is unforgiveable. And I'm usually inclined to forgive him for stuff like this.
This Obama controversy... is the sort of thing we journalists blow up into massive gas, mostly because we really don't want to get down in the weeds about the things we need to get down in the weeds about...like whether trade deals really are so bad, especially with the weak dollar (I don't think so) and whether we need a pause in the withdrawal schedule in Iraq (I don't think so).
But you can't blame the media for this. Obama could have been honest to Ohioans about whether he'd personally dismantle factories in Honduras and ship them back to Youngstown for reassembling. Hillary Clinton could stop pretending she doesn't agree with Obama on this Thomas Frankian idea that getting-by small town voters are being snookered into voting Republican over Gods, Guns and Gays. Every Democratic power broker thinks this. Clinton looks sillier in populist garb than Dukakis looked in the tank.
Robert Fripp's combo gets the Politics 'n' Prog trophy this week.
I wonder when John McCain will shit on his years of military service and his own good name by helping facilitate the passage of a bill that immunizes torturers and war criminals, abrogates various treaty obligations, and places the definition of torture wholly in the hands of the executive?
Oh wait he already did that.
I wonder when John McCain will openly declare his hatred of capitalism, free-market economics, everyone who works in the private sector, and any aspect of life that does not deal with military and government service?
Even as tens of thousands of new combat veterans were being created by Bush's Iraq war, men who would need medical care, psychological services, transition assistance, etc., Bush was proposing CUTS to veterans' spending.
Can someone direct me to footage of the time that McCain stood on the floor of the Senate sternly demanding that the people who stole from the taxpayers, and from our soldiers in Iraq, be found and brought to justice? Or the time he demanded hearings?
Or maybe the time he stood up and denounced the President for the way he has chosen to use up our military personnel and then throw them away? Maybe a time when he highlighted some veteran who was denied a disability pension for his war injuries, or who was turned away when he requested psychological counseling?
Oh wait no one can do that because McCain never did any of that, because he doesn't give a rat's ass about the taxpayers, our troops, or veterans, compared to how much he cares about cheerleading for George Bush.
Posted rhetorical questions where you made it clear that you thought it reasonable for us to assume that because one black person thought something stupid, it meant that Obama might think it, too.
Because, after all, all black people think the same things, and any black person running for office has to properly account to you for the thoughts and statements of all black people, everywhere.
Tell me, since Barack Obama has to answer for the thoughts of Alicia Keys, has John McCain answered for the thoughts of Noam Chomsky yet? After all, McCain and Chomsky are both white. They must think the same things, because they're both white. Or at least, McCain should realize that he has to assure us that he doesn't share the odd beliefs of any stray white person we can dig up, and he should therefore make a statement, or perhaps address the issue during a press conclave. Right?
Fluffy, I like your seething white-hot hatred of McCain. It goes nicely with mine.
It's irrelevant whether Obama fucked up this time. It seems that he may have a penchant for fucking up in interestingly subtle ways. If he wins the nom, we'll see. I hope so--McCain is a loose cannon, so having dueling gaffe-masters running would be pretty great. Every day a new headline.
Hillary Clinton could stop pretending she doesn't agree with Obama on this Thomas Frankian idea that getting-by small town voters are being snookered into voting Republican over Gods, Guns and Gays. Every Democratic power broker thinks this.
No, no, NO! Democrats don't think that mid-western conservative voters are somehow "snookered" into voting about God, Guns, and Gays.
They believe, rather, that because these mid-western conservative voters have lost hope of influencing those decisions that (they believe) inflict emotional devastation upon them, that *all they have left* to affect is social issues; that's all they feel they still have influence over.
I hear Pope Benedict will grace us with his presence this week. Maybe the God/Guns/Gays crowd will forget their bitterness and return to their full-time shallowness for a while.
I have already seen here that there is no explaining anything to you, so pointing out that the Keys conspiracy theory goes right along with what Sen. Obama's preacher of over 20 years was preaching every time he took the pulpit is a waste of time.
1970 440 6-Pack Cuda for only $81,000 on "Bidding Wars"? Wow, seems there might be something to this "tanking economy" stuff the MSM is making up talking about.
I have already seen here that there is no explaining anything to you, so pointing out that the Keys conspiracy theory goes right along with what Sen. Obama's preacher of over 20 years was preaching every time he took the pulpit is a waste of time.
Right, but the thing that Keys has in common with Wright that makes your association with her humorous is...what?
It is that she is black.
Therefore, my assertion that you automatically associate Keys' nutty statement with Obama [via Wright, if that makes you happy] because of the fact that she's black is...true.
Your defense here appears to be "Yeah, but it's only common sense to associate all black people and everything they say" and that really isn't a defense of what I posted, but an affirmation.
Elemenope is exactly right. This is why I'm having a hard time understanding any real outrage about this (politically driven faux outrage I get). What did Obama say that's in any way controversial? My wife is from small town Pennsylvania. Those aren't happy places by and large. Does anyone really want to argue with that? How many Reason readers are ready to move to Blossburg, PA? I travel a lot too, and there's no question in my mind that central PA and upstate NY are some of the most miserable unhappy parts of the US. The smart kids all leave as soon as they graduate high school, there's very little economic opportunity, and the weather sucks. The people in these towns do feel left behind and resentful. "Bitter" may be too strong, but there's no question that there's a lot of resentment of "elites" in those towns and that resentment does drive people to place more emphasis on social issues than people in more prosperous communities might. The big loser in the latest fake Obama scandal, once again, seems to be Clinton not Obama. She keeps attacking Obama from the right - killing her credibility with her own base and doing nothing to improve her standing with Democrats.
Yea, I knew it was useless to point out related wacky concepts and the only thing you can think of is that some of the people involved are Black.
Yup, that was what you did.
It's just a coincidence that Keys is black. That's not what you meant at all.
I'm sure you also joke about whether Obama agrees with Fred Phelps and Alex Jones. After all, you're just associating wacky concepts. It has nothing to do with race at all.
Sorry, Guy. My bad. I had judged it all wrong.
Wondering when Mr. & Mrs. Obama will tapp into the John Birch theory of water flouridation being government sponsored to allow future introduction of mindcontrol substances into the water of white people?
See? I'm down with the program now.
BTW, if you are so concerned about this perhaps you will start capitalizing that word when used for a race.
No such usage rule exists, Guy.
Actually, the opposite is true. The reflexive use of capitals to talk about White people and Black people is pretty much a "World Church of the Creator" style usage.
Breaking news: On the coast of Lake Michigan, in the 'gun-free zone' of Chicago, students at the University of Chicago are asked to stay off all three campuses on Friday, 14 April, after a "threatening note" was left warning of violence.
According to news reports, 14 April is the anneversary of the Virginia Tech shootings. If you recall, the VA Tech shooter was an English major, something they have no shortage of in and around the UC campus.
·Black is sometimes capitalized in its racial sense, especially in the African-American press, though the lowercase form is still widely used by authors of all races.
The Right Wing controls the MSM and the World Church of the Creator controls the African American press?
I’m a liberal. I take liberalism to mean a belief in policy geared toward easing poverty, extending rights to every walking human who hasn’t utterly forfeited them, getting the government out of the morality business, regulating markets judiciously, ensuring the pervasive yet hopefully efficient delivery of non-market goods such as education, health care and national defense, and otherwise having the sense to let the private sector handle private concerns. What makes me not “liberal” in the way that people who call themselves ‘progressives’ are seen as “liberal,” is that I don’t think the U.S. is the primary fount of global wickedness, I am heartily in favor of the war against Al-Qaeda,”
But you can't blame the media for this. Obama could have been honest to Ohioans about whether he'd personally dismantle factories in Honduras and ship them back to Youngstown for reassembling.
Wow, this is a bigger project than I was lead to believe. I thought Sen. Obama just had a list of jobs and who they belonged to so when he became President he could just pass them out to the people they were stolen from. Actually moving the stolen factories back to PA is a tall order. Perhaps if he came up with a catchy name, like the Philly Project, or maybe begin it with an experiment, it would catch on a little better.
. . . I don’t think the U.S. is the primary fount of global wickedness, I am heartily in favor of the war against Al-Qaeda . . .
Seems that Matt is on my side, but I think we disagree on that little issue of discomfort being 'torture', oh and on using the Atomic Bomb against Japan.
Totally agree with you. I am from metro Detroit and I can tell you that the rust belt bitterness is very present in MI. Many of my friends who have no hope of a good job in their home state have been reduced to one issue voters. I know several people who voted for the anti gay marriage amendment (which passed) but did not fill out anything else on that ballot. The way one of them put it: the dems and republicans have fucked us over for the past 20 years, it doesn't matter who is in power, but at least with this issue I can prevent those gays from getting more rights.
Shhh! He is on a roll showing us how smart he is about putting people into his little racist boxes. Since her dad is Black, then she and all who follow in her bloodline will be Black too and any comment about her views must be tied to this fact, in the world according to Fuffy.
Many of my friends who have no hope of a good job in their home state have been reduced to one issue voters.
Poor, helpless things! Won't somebody save them?
I've got it! The government should nationalize the automobile industry, and hire them all for a million dollars per annum, to stand around talking about their boats, and how drunk they got while they were "fishing."
And every so often, they can cross-thread a brake caliper bolt onto a passing car.
Speaking of the attitudes around Lake Michigan, in the 1960s and early 1970s we used to visit relatives in the Cedar Lake/Crown Point, IN area. Not sure if I met a higher concentrated collection of racist folks in my life, with a heavy mix of what I later identified as pathalogical Burchite syndrome.
Second place was Cook County, IL, where we were living at the time.
Was quite relieved when we moved to Knoxville, TN and we got a break from that nonsense. Added bonus: I go to start meeting and hanging out with people from all over the world while in Knoxville.
I wonder when the the DC area will stop being so self segregated and a lot more integrated, like things were back home.
We only found this out because someone taped a closed-door fundraiser.
And what may we deduce from this? Either Obama is a complete idiot, because he should know, by now, that there is no such thing as a "closed door, off the record" event, or he made this statement with the expectation that it would be widely circulate, because he believed (correctly or not) it would have more good than bad effect.
Whatever else he is, I'm assuming he's not an idiot.
Guy Montag, you are an even more dishonest and disreputable cunt than Lonewacko.
So you tell a racist joke, and now you're going to try to weasel out of it by claiming it's not really a racist joke, because Alicia Keys and Barack Obama are actually both of mixed race?
You pathetic racist fuck. I think you should change your name to SecondWacko. Why don't you take your racist, John-McCain-dick-sucking self over to FreeRepublic? You'd fit in better there.
Fluffy, there was nothing racist about it other than in your imagenation. As all can see, your tortured emotional response is nothing more than an attempt at distraction from your own bigotry.
Careful, David, I hear there's a lot of gun-clutching bitterness out there.
There's an odd parallel here with Wright's bitter grasping at racist government AIDS conspiracies. Obama gave pretty much the same explanation there, too -- not enough socialism.
The era of big government is here, and it shall save us all!
His FBI Handler: In this lyric here, you go talk with the Crip who had been saying shit about you behind your back.
50cent: So?
His FBI Handler: We don't pay you to rap about negotiating, we pay to rap about capping somebody's ass. Got to keep the gangs hustling and flowing or we G-Men are out on our asses. You don't know what it is like in the 'burbs, man. Mortgages, putting kids through college.
Fiddy: Okay, I hear you. I'll put some more violence into it. Hell of a way to pay off
that Masters in English.
Fox News says that billions of dollars were stolen from the taxpayers in Iraq.
Actually, what it says is that auditors can't trace it, not that anyone stole it. Imagine that, we're missing receipts in a war zone. Shocking. Hey, maybe they're under that RPG over there.
Wait! You were speeding? Did you have a rental car or was it that Ford you own? If the latter, be careful, that two-toned paint job is not 2 paint colors, one is paint and the other is rust.
We on the left feel superior to you right-wing Reaganite morons for one very good reason:WE ARE SUPERIOR. We're smarter, better educated, and far more sophisticated.
Frequently the "cuts" in Veteran's spending that are reported are the result of programs being de-funded for not spending their allocation several years in a row, or when the spending requirements are not as large as before. Even if the funds are reprogrammed into other areas, a "cut" is reported.
This, in addition to what you pointed out, of course.
It has been five years. Five. And over a trillion dollars, and you're still using the "Fog and Chaos of War" excuse for fraud, waste and abuse?
Not speaking for him, but I would characterize it as bad accounting practices. Seems there is still a lot of that "cut through the red tape" attitude going around, which as we all know, means dropping various accounting procedures. There are probably piles of hand reciepts that have never been entered into an automated system, but the audits are being conducted with the automated systems, and similar bad practices.
We on the left feel superior to you right-wing Reaganite morons for one very good reason:WE ARE SUPERIOR. We're smarter, better educated, and far more sophisticated.
Guy,
If waterboarding isn't torture, don't you think we owe the Japanese an apology for charging their soldiers for War Crimes when they waterboarded our men?
Even as tens of thousands of new combat veterans were being created by Bush's Iraq war, men who would need medical care, psychological services, transition assistance, etc., Bush was proposing CUTS to veterans' spending.
Um, this was an internal (i.e. White House budget office level) memo made in Feb '04, leaked in May '04 (you know before the *last* election) that proposed broad cuts in just about everything discretionary in FY 06 (Oct '05 - Sep '06), as in the year ahead of what they were actually working on. The veteran's affairs budget was a cut of $910 million out of $29.1 billion (3%). From the perspective of Feb '04, before we realized we had nothing like a plan for the first 2 years in Iraq, believing in Feb '04 that we would be producing *fewer* combat veterans by Oct '05 was not a ridiculous judgment. Plus, demographically, most of the ww2 and korean guys are no longer with us, and we are starting to pare down the vietnam generation. And last since it was a cut to the entire dept, possibly some overhead would be cut, not benefits (ok, I can't say the last one and keep a straight face).
But seriously, that 2nd article @8:45 in no way knocks McCain. Nonetheless, I concede I probably would not find youtube for your questions, would I care to look.
I hear Pope Benedict will grace us with his presence this week. Maybe the God/Guns/Gays crowd will forget their bitterness and return to their full-time shallowness for a while.
Slightly more Papists(TM) are still Democrats, even if only count the white (i.e. non-Hispanic) ones. (There was a brief time right after 9/11 where is was slightly the other way)
Guy, I thought the exact same thing when The Hildebest said she went hunting as a little girl--Bosnia story.
As you said, it was probably with a $20 bill at Kroger. It makes me cringe that this woman, whose husband's administration gave us the Scary Looking Weapons Ban is trying to be some kind of Second Amendment hero.
I also love it (sarcasm) when pols think the purpose of the Second is to gaurantee my right to hunt.
I don't doubt some error, but I don't believe for a second that there isn't quite a bit of fraud occurring:
I don't doubt that a bit either. There has already been a multiple suicide case involving an Army Major, Contract Officer, and his spouse, in the largest Contracting Officer fraud/misappropriation case in the history of the USA. That one began last year. Makes Bushrod Johnson look like small beans.
"They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water."
Heh, follow my first link! I wasn't actually in Baghdad when MAJ Davis killed herself, but I was there for when DCMA was flying in some gargantuan amount of auditors in response.
TallDave,
We only do it in training to our soldiers (not all of them, just special ops) precisely because they may be tortured by the enemy. It's even more likely to be used against them now that it's well known that we do it.
wish that you had put the video of "Sheltering Sky" that's on their concert DVD instead of the tune that you used. still King Crimson is always a welcome sight.
Hmm, yes...there's no difference at all if you volunteer for the training as opposed to having it forced on you.
So, it's okay to "torture" an innocent U.S. soldier, as long as they "volunteered" for it (they get kicked out of the program if they refuse), but it's not okay for three senior AQ terrorists that have knowledge of plots to kill Americans? Just want to be clear on this.
Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N. Koreans or Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it torture or call for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva Conventions. Especially since our special ops guys aren't always uniformed.
Anywho, for your question, TallDave: You don't see a substantiative difference between volunteering to say, be whipped 'cause you're into that sort of thing and me just running up and whacking you out of the blue with a cat o' nine tails?
"Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N. Koreans or Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it torture or call for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva Conventions. Especially since our special ops guys aren't always uniformed."
Hahaha like they care about international law anyway!
In case you missed it, a SERE Instructor said Waterboarding is Torture
Nance also misstated how it actually works, according to other SEALs.
Mike's secondary specialty in the SEAL force is as an advanced combat medic. Without getting into specifics on his experiences, Mike strongly disputes Nance's exaggerations of waterboarding. There is a word for people who have "pint after pint of water" filling their lungs: dead. "In fact," according to Mike, "they would be very, very dead. By definition, anyone who has drowned is in fact dead. A large percentage of true drownings do not involve ANY water entering the lungs because the epiglottis closes off the air passages as water enters the throat. People who die immediately from being immersed in water actually die of suffocation, not water entering their lungs. Not only that, many people who survive a near-drowning who do have even small amounts of water that slip by the epiglottis and enter their lungs can die later of fluid shifts and pneumonia. I can assure you that we do not use any technique that involves true suffocation or aspiration of water into the lungs. One cannot get questions to answers from people who suffocate or have water fill their lungs in any interrogation technique, which would render that technique more than a little self-defeating. Dead men tell no tales -- and also make rather poor soldiers."
Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N. Koreans or Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it torture or call for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva Conventions.
What do you suppose that they would do to American spies that they capture?
You don't see a substantiative difference between volunteering to say, be whipped 'cause you're into that sort of thing and me just running up and whacking you out of the blue with a cat o' nine tails?
I didn't realize our soldiers were just S&M freaks, or that senior Al Qaeda people were just picked up and interrogated "out of the blue" for no good reason.
During the last Democrat presidential primary campaigns, a retired Army General and candidate was reciting points from the Communist Manifesto and calling them founding values of our country. Does that make it so? BTW, I think he went to that vocational school in New York.
Hey Ayn Randian, when we capture Al Qaeda thugs do you want them to be able to say "Hey you can't do anything to us, you're papers say you can't torture us! Haha!"
Or do you want the interrigator to be able to say "Fuck our papers, we're going to get information from you anyway we can to save American lives!"
Hey Neil, recommend you familiarize yourself with
the fallacies of "Loaded Questions" and "False Dichotomies". And given that you're not actually here to learn anything or engage in discussion (you just want to win childish "Debating Points" and feel all Mommy-Loves-Me), I'm not going to sit here and unpack all that crap you just asked me.
Figure out how to ask a real question and we'll go from there. I'll start:
What do you think of senior intelligence officials saying that waterboarding is ineffective because people will say anything to make it stop?
1. Clearly, Bob Barr doesn't want to be president. If he did, he'd modify his policies to match what most Americans want and what they aren't getting from the major candidates. In the real world (not the fantasy world), there's very little to differentiate him from his opponents, and he's almost the same as McCain where McCain is most vulnerable.
Our soldiers volunteered to serve their country. Al Qaeda lieutenants volunteered to be terrorist leaders. It's an odd sort of morality that says the first choice makes waterboarding them OK and the second doesn't.
"What do you think of senior intelligence officials saying that waterboarding is ineffective because people will say anything to make it stop?"
The point IS to make them say anything. Better to get them to say SOMETHING that might be true rather than not say anything at all and laugh at us in comfort.
Why do you care about Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's comfort so much AR?
Is it going to be another two weeks before we hear from Mrs. Clinton about going shooting with her grandpa? If she is just ripping off that Gov. Romney story I am going to be so pissed! She needs to top the Bosnia story. Well, on the outside chance that this story is true, then she needs to get the details out quick before some 'blogger blows it up into another big deal, hehehe.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to be held to the same moral standards as our enemies. If we don't hold ourselves to higher standard of morality than people who oppress their women, then we're just rooting for flags.
Guy,
Ok, douche then explain to me the substansive difference between these two.
Today: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
WWII: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.
Is cellophane the fine line between torture and discomfort?
No, it isn't. You're just too dumb (or willfully obtuse) to figure it out. It's OK; I'll do it for you.
Our soldiers volunteered to serve their country. Al Qaeda lieutenants volunteered to be terrorist leaders. It's an odd sort of morality that says the first choice makes waterboarding them OK and the second doesn't.
Did you get to figuring out what program it is that waterboards Soldiers? Did you figure out that those Soldiers volunteer to be waterboarded, whereas the people who may or may not be AQ didn't at all?
You're also assuming that everybody we waterboard (or have in the past) was AQ. That's a bold assertion with no proof.
Why do you care about Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's comfort so much AR?
Did you look up loaded question yet, Neil?
Learn to ask a real question and we'll have a real discussion. Like this one:
Do you believe that the information garnered from torture is worth trading in a very powerful propaganda tool, that is, that the US is a beacon for freedom, justice and liberty?
The facts, as we know them, from the same places that we know that waterboarding was conducted on a total of THREE terrorists, is that it provided actionable intelligence in all three cases.
You are really upset with the intel guys batting 1.000 on something that important?
This whole issue is like, as I have said before, a bunch of not-first-born-children whining "he's looking at me" to mom.
The facts, as we know them, from the same places that we know that waterboarding was conducted on a total of THREE terrorists, is that it provided actionable intelligence in all three cases.
You are really upset with the intel guys batting 1.000 on something that important?
That's hearsay. Do you really think they're telling the whole story? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.
When was the last time our intel services batted 1.000 on anything?
Did you get to figuring out what program it is that waterboards Soldiers?
We don't know for sure because of OPSEC, but it's very likely to include SEAL, Force Recon, and USASF.
A very poor analogy, as I pointed out
It was an incredibly stupid analogy. For soldiers, there is a reward for enduring and a punishment for failing to endure it; they are doing it to serve our country and protect us. It's not anything like someone getting off on a sexual fetish. Nor is being struck by someone out of the blue anything like being captured after planning operations that killed thousands of Americans.
Did you figure out that those Soldiers volunteer to be waterboarded, whereas the people who may or may not be AQ didn't at all?
No, they volunteered for a program. They can choose to be waterboarded or fail the program. AQ volunteered to be terrorists, and they can choose to cooperate or be waterboarded.
You're also assuming that everybody we waterboard (or have in the past) was AQ. That's a bold assertion with no proof.
It was leaked some time ago that only three people were ever waterboarded.
"They" are the Islamofascists (the people who fly planes into buildings and commit suicide bombings against Israel), and I trust our military and CIA to be right more often than not. Therefore its worth it, its worth it to keep us safe and to win the Global War on Terror.
What I'm saying about Munich is, you think if we play nice with them and give into their demands they will leave us alone. Guess whaT? they won't.
In WWII we did all kinds of nasty things to suspected German sabatoours, why can't we do the same to AQ?
For soldiers, there is a reward for enduring and a punishment for failing to endure it; they are doing it to serve our country and protect us. It's not anything like someone getting off on a sexual fetish.
Not the sexual fetish part, you dumbass. The fact that you volunteer to undergo something because there's a risk/reward calculus is far different from just having it applied to you against your will. What's pissing me off is you knew that and now you're just wasting everyone's time.
Are you going to stop being dumb on purpose?
AQ volunteered to be terrorists, and they can choose to cooperate or be waterboarded.
Oh my god. What an intellectually dishonest argument. So, everyone we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we waterboarded them until they told us they were AQ?
Tell me something: are you that ideologically screwed up that you want us to lose this war? 'Cause shit like that is going to help us lose faster than anything.
One of our SGMs at work has been waterboarded and he has only been in Infantry specialties. Will ask him tomorrow, if I remember, what school it was part of. SERE school probably does it too.
I think one of the GS-14s did too when he was in uniform.
It is SERE, where they also beat the hell out of you. That must be OK to do to suspects in the GWOT too, then, right TallDave? I mean really just wail the shit out of a suspect? Our troops volunteer to do it, so it must be OK to just beat the crap out of suspects?
Oh my god. What an intellectually dishonest argument. So, everyone we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we waterboarded them until they told us they were AQ?
Come on man, all three were AQ. The entire set was AQ. 100% were AQ. How many different ways do you need this datapoint? They were admitted AQ before we captured them, especially that John Belushi looking one.
Its so cute that AR thinks that people who live in a region of the world where people are beheaded and stoned to death are going to think waterboarding is so terrible!
The fact that you volunteer to undergo something because there's a risk/reward calculus is far different from just having it applied to you against your will.
There's no "risk/reward" calculus in a masochistic sexual fetish. The discomfort is the reward.
And yes, analogizing our troops' devotion to duty and country to a sexual fetish is incredibly stupid.
So, everyone we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we waterboarded them until they told us they were AQ?
Where are these innocent people you claim were waterboarded until they claimed to be AQ? Perhaps they were waterboarded by the same people who created the AIDS virus to kill black people? These lefty delusional fantasies are certainly entertaining.
I just want it one way: we win, they lose. Unless you break that into two ways, then fine with me.
I don't give waterboarding a deterrant factor, it is an information gathering technique. If all the being nice while being strong did not work to deter them, then we move to other measures.
You still did not answer the Nabisco question. Are you profiting off of the new, kinder, gentler cuddleboarding policy?
Guy - Come off it. Why did the Administration go through about 8,000 different legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it was just three well-known and established AQ dudes?
Why go through all the trouble?
Its so cute that AR thinks that people who live in a region of the world where people are beheaded and stoned to death are going to think waterboarding is so terrible!
Neil, it's so cute YOU think it's so terrible that it's going to have a deterrent and investigative purpose to the tough-as-nails people you just described. So which is it, Neil: It's ineffective because they live in a tough region, or it's effective because it really does suck that much?
Today: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
WWII: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.
Is cellophane the fine line between torture and discomfort?
Yes.
The cellophane prevents any water from being breathed in.
Of course, I should also mention that the people who do this are not entitled to POW protections. There is a reason spies can do things that would get soldiers billeted to Leavenworth.
There is no uniformed component of Al Qaeda, so they can all be given a spy's treatment.
And yes, analogizing our troops' devotion to duty and country to a sexual fetish is incredibly stupid.
Please stop mouthing empty platitudes and masturbating to me, TallDave. If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you wouldn't have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
Where are these innocent people you claim were waterboarded until they claimed to be AQ?
Again, why did the Administration go through so many hoops to cover themselves if this was a legal application made on Bad Dudes?
I'm sure if B. Hussein Obama was President he'd be real sensitive and give the terrorist milk and cookies, and after we were so nice to them of COURSE they'd tell us the information we need! LOL
Why did the Administration go through about 8,000 different legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it was just three well-known and established AQ dudes?
Gee, maybe because they're serious people seriously attempting to balance what is morally acceptable with the need to protect Americans in the wake of attacks that killed 3,000 and caused $2 trillion in damage?
Guy,
Why don't you indicate the difference between what we did and the Japanese did first. You can't just assert "the water cure isn't water boarding" and leave it at that. Is it the cellophane or the fact that they're not Americans? Instead, when you lose an argument you enter odd non-sequitors like asking A_R if he owns Nabisco stock.
We might be able to find some waterboard victims in one of those Iraq war Vets for Surrender groups. Has Jessee MaCbeth claimed it yet, along with his claim of being a Ranger with only 60 days of actual service?
Maybe when PV2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp completes his service he could write about how he heard another soldier tell him about it.
If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you wouldn't have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
God help you if you're ever declared an "enemy combatant" and/or "shown to have provided aid and comfort."
Yes, I'm sure Michael is going to mastermind a plot to fly a 747 into the Sears tower any day now.
But hey, if he does, you can defend his right to not be waterboarded while we clean up the giant pile of corpses and steel. That'll be nice. A good bonding moment.
Guy - Come off it. Why did the Administration go through about 8,000 different legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it was just three well-known and established AQ dudes?
Because it is Executive branch business, not leaky Legeslative branch business.
BTW, you were not sent to Iraq because it had anything to do with 9/11 and nobody in any position of authority to send you there ever claimed that either. Now YOU are the one being really silly. Even if you were not a Lieutenant, you are still smart enough to know that a global war has many fronts, Iraq being just one.
If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you wouldn't have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians terror?
Guy, it seems apparent that you can't recognize your own racism, so I will be happy to explain it to you.
Say you were the host of a political talk show. This afternoon, you're going to have Barack Obama on your show.
Shortly before your show airs, a prominent black person says something outrageous - let's say that Al Sharpton gets a little angry about something, so he says "Maybe if African Americans blew up some office buildings their issues would get more attention!" or something like that.
If your first instinct is to adjust your notes to make sure that this comment is a prominent part of the questions you ask Obama - if you present it as something that you want him to explain - you are a racist.
You may claim that you would just be asking one Democrat activist about something said by another Democrat activist, but that would be a lie. The truth would be that you would instinctively act as if one black man is responsible for or "needs to account for" or "needs to reassure us that he doesn't share the views of" every other black person in America.
There is no uniformed component of Al Qaeda, so they can all be given a spy's treatment.
Great. Fantastic. If all AQ are spies, then try them as spies under our domestic laws or under the UCMJ if they were caught in a war zone, and then hang them. Of course, torture is still out, because torture of spies is not legal under US military or civilian law, or at least it wasn't until John McCain made it his business to make it legal.
you are still smart enough to know that a global war has many fronts, Iraq being just one.
The assertion that Iraq is a "front" in the GWOT is just that, an assertion. It hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated that it was a wise strategic move to invade in the first place and it hasn't been shown that it makes strategic sense to remain.
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians terror?
If you're so hung up about Palestinian terror, you go do something about it. It's not a justification for 1 trillion dollars, 4,000 American lives and 100,000 Iraqis.
Because it is Executive branch business, not leaky Legeslative branch business.
It's the job of the Executive branch to ensure they are executing the laws of the land in COMPLIANCE with the laws of the land. It certainly is Legislative business. Lack of legislative involvement is what's gotten so far down the anti-freedom road in the first place.
you can defend his right to not be waterboarded while we clean up the giant pile of corpses and steel. That'll be nice. A good bonding moment.
First you hide your arguments behind "The Troops"
Then dead victims.
And then you invoke anti-semitism, as if failing to invade Iraq would somehow mean Jews aren't people, or something.
Nows not the time to start moaning about 2003. There is Al Qaeda there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists in Iraq NOW, its clearly been made the central front of the GWOT.
We can fight both there and in Afghanistan at the same time, just like we fought both the Germans and Japanese in WWII, its quite similar.
Yeah, war costs money, but as a % of the GDP the debt isn't abig deal. Its still lower as a % of the GDP than it was under Reagan (and liberals still whined about it then).
Nows not the time to start moaning about 2003. There is Al Qaeda there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists in Iraq NOW, its clearly been made the central front of the GWOT.
Maybe if you go in circles fast enough, you'll disappear up your own ass.
The debt is 9 trillion. GDP is 13 trillion a year. You say it's "not a big deal", and I would normally (yikes) agree with you, but the interest payments and the lack of creditor faith in the United States is what has led to the weak dollar and high prices.
Also, I guess you can say "hey, a trillion here or a trillion there, what's the dif? It takes real leadership to make tough choices to ensure the Government doesn't end up in default. I know you have visions of a giant Visa paying for millions of Soldiers and Tanks to roll across the globe in search of terrorists, but real life doesn't work that way, little boy.,
There is Al Qaeda there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists in Iraq NOW, its clearly been made the central front of the GWOT.
Who made it that way?
Was that a smart move?
Has it made us safer?
Is it worth the cost?
What about the moral quandry of making a neutral nation a battleground for a war they had no part in making?
These are questions adults ask. These are questions patriots ask because we want to insure national security. You just want to go gallivanting about the globe, sword in one hand and checkbook in the other.
More questions I'm sure won't get answered by the Iraq hawks:
- What is the end-state objective of the GWOT?
- What are the objectives?
- What's the timeline?
- What does victory look like in the GWOT?
- When does it end?
Of course, torture is still out, because torture of spies is not legal under US military or civilian law, or at least it wasn't until John McCain made it his business to make it legal.
