"The Meritocracy As We Know It Mostly Works To Perpetuate the Existing Upper Class"

From the days when the critique of corporate liberalism was a priority on the radical left.Heaven knows I have my disagreements with Ross Douthat, but he's the one opinion columnist at The New York Times who is regularly willing to step outside the paper's ideological comfort zone—that tiny distance, if it is a distance at all, that separates the white-man's-burden liberalism of Nicholas Kristof from the big-government conservatism of David Brooks. In today's column, Douthat discusses "a truth that everyone who's come up through Ivy League culture knows intuitively—that elite universities are about connecting more than learning, that the social world matters far more than the classroom to undergraduates, and that rather than an escalator elevating the best and brightest from every walk of life, the meritocracy as we know it mostly works to perpetuate the existing upper class." More specifically, Douthat describes some of the ways this is done "in a society that's formally democratic and egalitarian and colorblind" and with "an elite that prides itself on its progressive politics, its social conscience, its enlightened distance from hierarchies of blood and birth and breeding."

It is possible to imagine another Times writer discussing higher education's role as a class sorting machine. But the liberals would end the op-ed with a call for admitting more people to college, and Brooks would trail off into nostalgia for the alleged era when Ivy graduates had more noblesse oblige and the rest of the country reciprocated by respecting their authority. And maybe someone would try to argue for a "national service" program, the better to get the elite out into the world for a bit before they run it. Douthat, who has a healthy decentralist streak, seems to suggest there's something wrong with the whole setup to begin with. Better still, he's doing it in the paper that serves as the class in question's community bulletin board.

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  • Peyton Farquhar||

    I'm surprised this subject has been mentioned here. See The Myth of
    American meritocracy.

  • Best Of All Possible Tyrannies||

    Really? I generally find Reason willing to take a critical stare at virtually anything.

  • ||

    The trolls here seem to have an irrational hatred for libertarianism, i.e. for liberty, yet make completely inaccurate claims about Reason and about libertarianism.

    I get the impression they/it thinks that by making these fantastical claims that we will be confused or convinced and change positions.

    WTF?

    Of coursec all those trolls could be the same crazy person.

  • Arthur||

    I think he is referring to the issues of IQ in general, which are rarely discussed here.

  • ||

    It's that guy!

  • Arthur||

    That is the chicken and the beef and the shrimp and the cony island hot dog. I wonder if they have ever actually put that plan into action. Your second paragraph is a distinction without a difference. And, finally, how is that supposed to work without a source of hydrogen?

  • Russell||

    Douthat has reason to be unhappy that universities bring together more than egalitaran expectations.

    The admonition: " Beware of the Anglo-Catholics—they're all sodomites with unpleasant accents." is not unique to Oxford in the 1920's.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Ha ha - wait, what?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Higher education occupies the same space in Progressive America that the Church did in pre 20th century Europe.

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    Be fair; pre-19th Century Europe.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Moldbug much?

    It's interesting. Everywhere I go, I see pieces of Moldbug's thesis. All the pieces make sense to everyone, and they make even more sense when you put all the pieces together.

    For those interested in a grand union of ideas floating around conservative meme space about the relationships between higher learning, the American caste system, the media, government power, and Progressivism, look up Mencius Moldbug.

    Lots to disagree with, but lots that is original and clarifies the issues like no one else does.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Moldbug much?

    Yeah, I think his analysis of academia as The Cathedral, progressivism as a religious offshoot of christianity and modern imperialism are spot on.

    However, I find his conclusion of monarchy as a solution to be another variation of the right man fallacy.

  • Invisible Finger||

    Mencken concluded for monarchy as well. Though his conclusion was that the king was more likely to fear for his life than an elected bureaucrat.

    I'm not so sure I agree with that, judging from that fact that there seemed to be little fear of a bloody coup in Hussein's Iraq or current North Korea,- and any fear that did exist was merely met with the current leader being violently proactive. But it was food for thought anyway.

  • widget||

    I read Moldbug too, but frankly, a lot of it is over my head. I do understand, however, that he advocates that government be run as a share holder corporation. He just uses historical examples of monarchies to make his case for this. Monarchs own their country and think with a longer time horizon than a democracy. But he knows that monarchies are deeply flawed.

  • gaijin||

    At Tulane, apparently, the 'Church' takes care of our children too:

    All Your kids belong to us

  • General Butt Naked||

    Jesus, that was fucking scary.

    Not scary that someone thinks like that (well, sort of) because lots of people think like that. Scary because it was on a mainstream television network and the participants weren't shamed into oblivion.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Que the talking heads displaying some false concern for a few days.

  • Paul.||

    that elite universities are about connecting more than learning,

    Duh.

    Brooks would trail off into nostalgia for the alleged era when Ivy graduates had more noblesse oblige and the rest of the country reciprocated by respecting their authority.

    Irony? Wasn't it Brooks that wrote Bobos in Paradise or some such complaint about how society is being insularly segregated by the elite educated class and...everyone else?

  • Hugh Akston||

    I've noticed shades of this same thing out here in CA. There's no Ivy League here, but I have observed that people with USC/UCLA/Berkeley/Stanford degrees tend to form a fairly high percentage of the management and executive tiers (when companies don't import Ivy Leaguers, that is) and that people like me from schools that are occasionally confused with Junior Colleges have trouble nailing down a permanent position.

    I mean, why do you think B-Rock transferred from Oxy to Columbia?

  • fish_remote||

    .... USC/UCLA/Berkeley/Stanford degrees tend to form a fairly high percentage of the management and executive tiers (when companies don't import Ivy Leaguers, that is)

    Moldbugs Cathedral does have franchisees on the west coast.

  • buybuydandavis||

    I salute your Moldbuggery!

    You beat me to it today.

  • Brandybuck||

    Fortunately most places could care less about where you went to school so long as you know what you're doing. With just a literature degree it was tough for me to break into the tech field. But once I did no one ever asked again where I went to school.

    Well, at least outside of HR departments. But we all know that the purpose of HR departments is to prevent the company from hiring anyone.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The tough part now is just getting your resume to HR.

    Most companies now have a computerized gatekeeper that automatically dumps resumes without key words. It's annoying because it only dumps you after you've spent time filling out forms and giving them all kinds of info. Why it can't read the resume first and save you the time, I don't know.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Maybe they're testing your ability to program an employment application spambot.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Maybe I should try for a position at Reason, because that doesn't seem like a skill they're too interested in.

    I could totally pretend to give a shit about whatever Bill Maher is thinking if the scratch is right.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Yeah, but unfortunately, once your management becomes infested with people of a certain mindset, "you know what you're doing" becomes synonymous with "you went to the right schools."

    I'm sure it's somewhat different in technology. You're probably okay so long as you know the right languages and standards. But the media and publishing companies I've worked for are pretty Cali/elitist.

  • ||

    Poor Hugh, he can't get a job because he went to Greendale. Maybe you can commiserate with Magnitude and Leonard. POP POP!

    Study group meets at 6.

  • ||

    Hugh still thinks Professor Professorson is a real person.

  • ||

    Fuck Community, that show sucks.

  • ||

    No, you suck!

    Runs and hides in the corner sobbing on Epi's shoulder.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    You are the worst.

  • John C. Randolph||

    I'm sure it's somewhat different in technology.

    I can tell you that at Apple in particular, nobody cares about degrees or what school someone's going to, even when picking out engineering interns. They look at the work you've done, and how it relates to the work they need to get done.

    Senior management at Apple are far and away the most competent executives I've ever met, and I've met a lot of them.

    -jcr

  • Paul.||

    Senior management at Apple are far and away the most competent executives I've ever met, and I've met a lot of them.

    That's a bold statement.

    We'll see how this plays out now that Jobs is gone.

  • John C. Randolph||

    Steve chose them, and he chose well.

    -jcr

  • Raven Nation||

    Agree with the exception of liberal arts faculty. I would guess that well over half of history faculty at Research-I schools are Ivy PhDs

  • DJK||

    Highly disagree. If you want to do PhD level work at a place like Intel, Dow, etc (read: industry leaders), you'd better have a PhD from one of the good Ivy's (Brown, for instance, doesn't count), Stanford, Caltech, or Berkeley.

  • DJK||

    This may only be true in the sciences and engineering, however.

  • Paul.||

    But we all know that the purpose of HR departments is to prevent the company from hiring anyone.

    Clearly sir, you've worked in corporate america.

    They also do an excellent job of making sure that when someone is hired, they're the least qualified, worst possible candidate.

  • ||

    people like me from schools that are occasionally confused with Junior Colleges

    I feel your pain Hugh. Every time I mention my school this conversation happens:

    "Really? I thought you got a 4-year degree."

    "Umm I went to the same school as Richard Nixon"

    "Richard Nixon went to a community college?"

  • Hugh Akston||

    Oh snap. I didn't know there was another Poet infesting this commentariat.

  • ||

    Haha, yep. When you said your school was always mistaken for a community college I automatically assumed you meant Whittier, but decided that's probably true of other schools too.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Eh. I've only really heard it about us. What year are you?

  • ||

    '05

    Have you noticed that people from the east coast have a much more favorable impression of the school than people from CA?

  • Hugh Akston||

    In that they don't have any preconceived biases against it, I suppose. I mostly deal with Calischool alums, and don't interact much with folks from back east.

    And I was '04. We probably knew each other. Or knew of each other anyways. Look for an email.

  • ||

    Do you really think glory holes count as "knowing", Hugh? Come on.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Glory holes typically require bathrooms with more than one stall, Epi. Not all of us had the privilege of attending elite institutions like yours.

  • Irish||

    Glory holes typically require bathrooms with more than one stall, Epi.

    Wow, you sure are an elitist, Hugh. Why do you need more than one stall? Those of us who didn't have your fancy, schmancy upbringing make due by pressing ourselves against the outside of the single stall and just kind of hoping that no one walks in.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I had a friend in high school that went on to film school, and at the time we'd all get wasted and make short films. It's actually pretty fun.

    One movie was about a world where there were glory hole vending machines called "ButtHuts". We constructed the butthut out of an old refrigerator box and put a pic of some dude from a cologne ad next to "your server today will be...". The guy was who actually worked the butthut was a workaday, blue collar, lunch pail sort. He hated his life 'cause his teenage son was rotten, his wife didn't appreciate him, and he had to work at the butthut.

    So one day he has an argument with his son over smoking pot and leaves for work in anger, and the son deciding he needs to relax after the fight opted to let loose with a trip to the butthut. Hilariousness ensues.

    This conversation reminded me of that.

  • Paul.||

    I had a friend in high school that went on to film school, and at the time we'd all get wasted and make short films. It's actually pretty fun.

    One movie was about a world where there were glory hole vending machines called "ButtHuts".

    Uhm, that wasn't film school.

  • Homple||

    Wasn't a camera, either.

  • ||

    Whittier didn't have any glory holes Epi. You had to go to Le Sex Shoppe, now Romantix, on Whittier Blvd for that... or so I've been told.

  • Hugh Akston||

    The real action is in the back booths at Rocky Cola, freshman.

  • ||

    Damnation! I never went so far back into Rocky Cola, I was always afraid of being eaten by townies.

  • ||

    Whittier '08 here. Only really old people ever recognize my college as the Alma mater of Tricky Dick Nixon. Everyone else thinks I should have gone to PCC if I was going the city college route. This conversation gets old really fast.

  • ||

    Holy crap, why are there so many Whittier alums slumming on the Reason comments section on a Sunday afternoon?

  • Irish||

    This is bizarre. Is Whittier some sort of libertarian breeding ground? If I have a child, I'll make sure to send them to Whittier because apparently that's the ticket to a good, libertarian upbringing.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    Is Whittier some sort of libertarian breeding ground?

    Richard Nixon went there. So no.

  • Paul.||

    Is Whittier some sort of libertarian breeding ground?

    Richard Nixon went there. So no.

    Then clearly Nixon didn't learn anything.

  • ||

    The history department at Whittier was entertainingly deferential to Nixon.

  • TheZeitgeist||

    Nixon was forced to go to Whittier, for he could not afford Harvard. So Whittier might be libertarian, for Tricky truly comes across as a Harvard man denied, and therefore eternally bitter - even right now.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Nixon was forced to go to Whittier, for he could not afford Harvard.

    I thought the popular narrative was that his mom (or someone) got sick and he had to stay home to tend to the vegetable garden.

  • John C. Randolph||

    Tricky Dick was the clown who ended the dollar’s last tie to gold. Yes, he was a blithering idiot.

    -jcr

  • Ted S.||

    I think the rest of us are slumming at a Whittier alumni reunion.

  • Irish||

    I just looked up Whittier college online, and that campus is absolutely beautiful.

    This makes me even angrier that liberals managed to fuck up California.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Whittier's campus is beautiful. And since all the good dorms are at the top of a very steep hill, the students there have very nice butts.

  • ||

    Yeah, it's a great campus and I really like the Uptown Whittier area. Hugh is right that asses were generally quite nice around campus, and as a bonus you were often plodding up said steep stairs at eye level with them (this did have occasional downsides).

  • Hugh Akston||

    I've been back a few times over the years looking for a "Whittier Than You" teeshirt from Melrose in my size. But to no avail.

  • ||

    I'm out there occasionally to visit friends, preferably while eating at Golden Triangle, I'll have to keep an eye out for that shirt.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Oh man Golden Triangle is so good. I stay in touch with a friend from Whittier who is pursuing her PhD at UC Riverside, and we meet for lunch occasionally, and always at GT.

  • ||

    I have yet to find a Thai place remotely as good as Golden Triangle. I showed this thread to my wife (we met at Whittier) and she's baffled that there are other people who were libertarian minded that came out of that place. Oh, and what they say about the hills to the dorm are true. It helped my wife, too :-)

  • Irish||

    Is your wife a libertarian? DREAMS REALLY DO COME TRUE!

    If so, that's a match made in libertopia.

  • ||

    She is. Very principled about it but silent politically. I do enough debating and ostricizing for the both of us.

  • ||

    Also, whittiergate.com. I don't think it's active anymore but Hugh and Jesse should get a kick out of it. Some hacktivist my senior year had a real problem with the college and made this site.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Personally I consider myself the Whittiest alum, but whatev.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Richard Nixon remains the college's most well-known alumnus, although Andrea Barber, who played wacky neighbor Kimmy Gibbler on the sitcom Full House, is a well-known alumna.

    There's this too.

    Jesus.

  • ||

    Who?

  • General Butt Naked||

  • ||

    She worked on campus when I was there. I don't think I ever met her though.

  • Invisible Finger||

    Those schools were basically created by Ivy Leaguers trying to get a foothold in the far west lest some evil Quaker-types get a foothold first.

  • fish_remote||

    Now please correct me if I'm in error here: Harvard allows the idiot children of wealth to graduate and ruin business. Yale on the other hand allows the idiot children of power to go forth and further ruin government?!

  • wareagle||

    I'll correct you. Harvard is just as willing as Yale to let the idiot children of the rich run, and ruin, govt.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yep. Last two prezzes came from Harvard. The two guys from Yale who preceded them were veritable genius leaders.

  • TheZeitgeist||

    Bush 43 got his first degree at Yale, and his graduate degree at Harvard - so no way he's simply stupid.

    He's stupid squared.

  • Xenocles||

    You don't necessarily have to be from big money to go there. An idiot classmate of mine went there, and while we were a Catholic college prep school we were hardly even 5-percenters on average.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I'm not usually a big fan of Douhat, but this:

    Or it would be like telling admissions offices at elite schools that they should seek a form of student-body “diversity” that’s mostly cosmetic, designed to flatter multicultural sensibilities without threatening existing hierarchies all that much. They don’t need to be told — that’s how the system already works! The “holistic” approach to admissions, which privileges résumé-padding and extracurriculars over raw test scores or G.P.A.’s, has two major consequences: It enforces what looks suspiciously like de facto discrimination against Asian applicants with high SAT scores, while disadvantaging talented kids — often white and working class and geographically dispersed — who don’t grow up in elite enclaves with parents and friends who understand the system. The result is an upper class that looks superficially like America, but mostly reproduces the previous generation’s elite.

    is one of the most honest paragraphs I've read in a while.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Compared to NYT columnists like, say, Krugabe, Douthat is a shining beacon of libertarian rationality.

  • Hugh Akston||

    You can see by the encroaching facial hair that he has contracted Krugmania though. It's a terminal condition that gradually destroys the mind, but leaves the body capable of stroking cats and submitting columns to the NYT.

    It is typically transmitted either by bite or sexually.

  • Irish||

    Other than Douthat, NYT columnists come in three flavors:

    1. Right-wing fascist
    Ex. David Brooks
    Example quote: "Our lives are given meaning by the service we supply to the nation."

    2. Left-wing Fear Mongers
    Ex. Frank Rich
    Example Quote: "Barstow confirmed what the Southern Poverty Law Center had found in its report last year: the unhinged and sometimes armed anti-government right that was thought to have vaporized after its Oklahoma apotheosis is making a comeback. And now it is finding common cause with some elements of the diverse, far-flung and still inchoate Tea Party movement. All it takes is a few self-styled “patriots” to sow havoc."

    3. ????
    Ex. Thomas Friedman
    Example Quote: "There is no outside power willing to fall on the Syrian grenade and midwife a new order."

  • General Butt Naked||

    4. The "funny" ladies
    Ex. Maureen Dowd and the other one
    Example Quote: NA (not doing it sorry)

  • Irish||

    I put Dowd in the ???? category.

    Example: The time she tried to claim Obama's victory stuck it to rich people, even though 10 of the top 11 wealthiest counties voted for Obama.

    Example: Whenever she talks about white male privilege, from her perch as a fucking NYT columnist, a position that grants her privileges 99% of men will never know.

    There are a lot of Dowd examples.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Rich people == Mitt Romney and the Kochs

    Pay attention next time!

  • buybuydandavis||

    Rich people == Rich People who aren't Progressives.

    The Progressive rich are the people who get bailouts and "investments".

  • Russell||

    There's Austin Power, bur he's never really gotten over Waco.

  • Bingo||

    I have this theory that Thomas Friedman is secretly a subversive dadaist performance artist who tries to fill his pieces with as many non-sequitors as possible as some sort of scathing mockery of the editorial page status quo.

    Either that or he's just a complete moron.

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    You, sir, just blew my fucking mind.

  • ||

    Bingo, you win.

    I have ritz crackers and peanut butter/ milk mixed with cherry vanilla icecream blown out of my nose and onto my screen.

    "....secretly a subversive dadaist performance artist who tries to fill his pieces with as many non-sequitors as possible ..."

    That, my friend, is hilarious.

  • An0nB0t||

    3. ????
    Ex. Thomas Friedman
    Example Quote: "There is no outside power willing to fall on the Syrian grenade and midwife a new order."

    I thought that quotation was a particularly insightful joke until I referenced it. Just reading a sentence like that drives an editor to drink.

    Another helpful bit from always quotable nut Matt Taibbi: "Friedman came up with lines so hilarious you couldn't make them up even if you were trying – and when you tried to actually picture the 'illustrative' figures of speech he offered to explain himself, what you often ended up with was pure physical comedy of the Buster Keaton/Three Stooges school, with whole nations and peoples slipping and falling on the misplaced banana peels of his literary endeavors."

  • Irish||

    This explains all you need to know about Thomas Friedman.

    Whoever came up with that is an absolute genius.

  • ||

    What the fuck was that I just read?

  • Irish||

    Thomas Friedman Op-Ed generator. They basically throw random word's around and try to make an article as much like Thomas Friedman's as possible.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Holy fuck, man. No fucking around, either.

    I didn't look at the address and totally thought that was his editorial.

    We are now living in a post-satire world.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Holy fuck, man. No fucking around, either.

    I didn't look at the address and totally thought that was his editorial.

    We are now living in a post-satire world.

  • General Butt Naked||

    *reads*

    Let's make America for the world what Cape Canaveral was to America: the world's greatest launching pad. If I had fifteen minutes to pitch my idea to politicians, I'd tell them two things about capital gains. First, there's no way around the issue unless we're prepared to spend more: and not just spend more, but spend smarter by investing in the kind of green energy that makes countries succeed. That's going to require some tax increases as well, but as they say, "them's the breaks."

    Second, I'd tell them to look at Finland, which all but solved its capital gains crisis over the past decade. When I visited Finland in 2002, Mwambe, the cabbie who drove me from the airport, couldn't stop telling me about how he had to take a third job because of the high cost of capital gains. I caught up with Mwambe in Helsinki last year. Thanks to Finland's reformed approach toward capital gains, Mwambe has enough money in his pocket to finally be able to afford an apartment for his kids.

    *head explodes*

  • General Butt Naked||

    I just read Friedman's real oped for today and the meme-generator makes more sense.

  • Irish||

    Compare the last sentence of the one I posted to the first sentence of Friedman's op-ed.

    YES, it’s true — a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. But a “timeout” is also a terrible thing to waste, and as I look at the world today I wonder if that’s exactly what we’ve just done.

    Here's the second:

    That's all it takes. Don't expect to see any solutions as long as industry captains insist on playing a high-stakes game of poker with one another. America's got to call a time-out.

    Could anyone who hadn't read both of them tell which was fake? They even both talk about 'time-outs.'

  • Irish||

    HOLY FUCK. Listen to the next part of Friedman's op-ed.

    Think about what a relative luxury we’ve enjoyed since the Great Recession hit in 2008. We, the Europeans and the world’s other major powers all have been able to focus almost entirely on healing our own economies — without having to worry about a major war or globe-rattling conflict that would snuff out our fragile economic recoveries or require extensive new defense spending. Relatively speaking, the world in the last five years has had a geopolitical timeout.

    Yeah, thank God that recession hit! 8% unemployment may be terrible, people might not be able to afford their mortgages, but at least we got a couple years to take a time out from geopolitics!

    And the first comment on that page is comparing the Tea Party to Assad. It has 66 thumbs up. The New York Times and its entire readership is beyond parody.

  • Homple||

    Irish, thank you from the bottom of my sin-blackened heart for that link.

    I had to read it twice to be sure it wasn't a real Friedman column and I'm still not completely convinced it isn't.

    It's cold, wet, and gloomy here in the Northwest, raining so hard hard that I can neither mow the lawn nor go sailing and I was considering heading to the pub and getting drunk to cheer myself up.

    You saved me a chilly walk in the rain and a hangover.

  • Paul.||

    1. Right-wing fascist
    Ex. David Brooks
    Example quote: "Our lives are given meaning by the service we supply to the nation."

    Or garden variety progressive... can't really tell the difference. Sounds better in the original german, though.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    +1

  • Ken Shultz||

    I think a lot of the people that come up through the Ivy League, who talk about things like meritocracy within the context of that little world, imagine that they're talking about the rest of America, as well.

    And it just ain't so.

    At construction companies and commercial real estate brokerages all over America, the way to get ahead has virtually nothing to do with who you socialized with at college--or whether you went to the Ivy League. It's about what you add to the bottom line over the long term.

    People are like investments. How stocks are valued in the short term is about the supply of and demand for the stock (and there are only so many Ivy League grads to go around), but how a stock is valued over the long term has to do with its earnings. It's about how much of a return you provide to the people who invested in you.

    For the non-Ivy League 99% of the country, it's about what you add to the bottom line over a period of years.

    Actually, if you really want to get ahead in life, you should probably go start a business--in which case, where you went to school and how many of your buddies are Ivy League grads doesn't count for shit. I know if you've been working commercial real estate deals for five to ten years, and the most impressive thing on your resume is where you went to school, then you're gonna have a really hard time finding people to work with you.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Don't lump the entire Ivy League together. Princeton, Cornell, and UPenn are very strong uni's for STEM and don't belong even in the same universe as statist-leaking anuses like Dartmouth and Yale.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Dartmouth doesn't have a medical school?

  • DJK||

    Harvard and Princeton pretty consistently rank near the top of undergrad and grad programs in all of the STEM fields. Cornell to a slightly lesser degree. UPenn? Lol.

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    The University/College model of education is designed for two things; to apply a veneer of glib intelligence to the usually un-educatable sons (now all children) of the social elite and to train scholars. Scholars in the science and engineering fiends are genuinely socially useful. Scholars in the humanities are a luxury good. My Father, who was one (a historian) was constantly astonished at how many such society is apparently willing to support.

    As for the children of the social elite; it is one of the great flaws of our society that we do not encourage such to join the military where a proper involvement in our own national interests would supply us with many opportunities to get the dumber ones killed.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    One benefit of the old aristocratic system was that the aristocrats were supposed to be the warriors, and were expected to win battles for their country or die in the attempt. The British aristocracy sacrificed a disproportionate number of its members in WWI compared to other population groups. The U.S. aristocracy, not so much (see the Baby Boomers).

  • Hugh Akston||

    The concern about elite university nepotism seems related to the hand-wringing about the inequality of wealth. The really important question in both cases isn't really "do those people deserve to be there" so much as "how are the other classes faring?"

    If people in the bottom four quintiles are reasonably free and have opportunities to move up with the right combination of intelligence and gumption, then it really doesn't matter who the elite are or what they're up to.

    If, on the other hand, the elite literally have all of the wealth and power and the rest of us are starving in the streets with no hope of bettering our lot, then it doesn't matter how the elite came by their position, only how quickly their heads can be put on pikes.

  • Paul.||

    then it doesn't matter how the elite came by their position, only how quickly their heads can be put on pikes.

    Unfortunately, that requires magazines of unusual size.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    it is one of the great flaws of our society that we do not encourage such to join the military

    If we were running our Empire properly, we could be shipping them off to the oilfields of Kurdistan.

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    Yes, and only reserving about half as many seats to bring them back. Nothing like a good Colonial war to thin the herds of Upper Class twits.

  • 21044||

    Unfortunately, a lot of good enlisted men get killed when ever one these upper class twits gets culled. In this case, the twit survived:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....ht_Brigade

  • wareagle||

    Douthat's article reinforces the notion that malicious truths never go down well among those at whom they are aimed. The NYT readership is loaded with the very folks, and their children, whom he writes about. How many will even notice? Or equally likely, how many will now conclude that the scribe has lost his mind?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "Umm I went to the same school as Richard Nixon"

    "And they all moved away from me on the bench
    there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things..."

  • ||

    I see a lot of butthurt from people who weren't accepted, or felt they couldn't get into, an Ivy League school. Why do you folks give a shit? Is it because you were refused? Is it because you're angry that more privileged dipshits than yourself got in?

    I just don't get the rabid Ivy League hate. There are just as many idiots in every walk as life as there are in the Ivy League. Why does it deserve being singled out? This shit just screams butthurt, and you're all clutching your anuses.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Four years of Clown College really put things into perspective for you, didn't it Epi?

  • ||

    Look, Barnum & Bailey is the elite of Clown Colleges, Hugh. Did you know I was there with Steve-O from Jackass? Though I admit it was pretty much all rum, sodomy, and the lash. But you see the importance of making connections.

  • ||

    Umm, it seems like everything you do is rum, sodomy and the lash, Epi. It might be time to admit you're an addict.

  • ||

    CONNECTIONS, JESSE. CONNECTIONS.

  • ||

    What does James Burke have to do with this?

  • General Butt Naked||

    Greatest show ever.

    Dang.

  • ||

    I'll never forget that one scene where Burke lovingly fondles the plow while describing it as the basis of agricultural civilization.

  • Irish||

    What? I didn't even apply to any Ivy league schools, even though my grades and test scores were good enough. I know people who got admitted to Harvard and chose not to go there because they'd rather go to a Big Ten school.

    The problem with the Harvard's and Yale's of the world is that they exist for no purpose beyond giving credentials to people who will later get high ranking positions in businesses that they drive into the ground, or in governments that they bankrupt.

    This isn't an issue of 'butthurt' it's an issue of a legitimate culture of corruption, cronyism and nepotism.

  • Alan||

    Agree. Although I know a few real first-class intellects that attended the Ivies, there are many more who are at the very least out-of-touch with the reality of ordinary people, and quite a few who are just idiots.

    The problem isn't that the Ivies produce their share of idiots - every college does - the problem is the cronyism that has captured American government and much of society, preying on the work of the non-connected majority while claiming credit for themselves.

    As near as I can tell, pretty much every non-community college can provide a decent education, and there are probably at least a few hundred colleges in the U.S. that do just as well as the Ivies in terms of educating their students.

    As for the original column by a Mrs. Patton advocating that college co-eds who want to get married should do so when they have the best opportunity to do so - I actually agree. I'm not opposed to selective breeding and trying to avoid the reversion to the mean - the problem is that this system actively excludes many whose merit demands they be included and includes many who should not be included.

  • wareagle||

    There are just as many idiots in every walk as life as there are in the Ivy League.

    and while this is true, the Ivy idiots are often in positions where their ideas can harm the rest of us. No hate, no butthurt; perfectly happy with two degrees from land-grant institutions. But fewer folks from the SEC or Big 12 wind up in positions to use the rest of us as a giant petrie dish.

  • Paul.||

    and while this is true, the Ivy idiots are often in positions where their ideas can harm the rest of us.

    I'm going to tentatively agree with this. What the Ivy league seems to do is instill the dangerous component of arrogance with the already existing incompetence.

    "Hey, he's from an Ivy League school... PUT HIM IN CHARGE!"

    Personally, if it were up to me I'd put the small, unkempt child we found running around in the steam tunnels in charge.

  • ||

    Personally, if it were up to me I'd put the small, unkempt child we found running around in the steam tunnels in charge.

    I thank you for your vote of confidence.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I see a lot of butthurt from people who weren't accepted, or felt they couldn't get into, a career as a police officer. Why do you folks give a shit? Is it because you were refused? Is it because you're angry that more privileged dipshits than yourself got in?

    I just don't get the rabid police hate. There are just as many idiots in every walk as life as there are in the police force. Why does it deserve being singled out? This shit just screams butthurt, and you're all clutching your anuses.

  • ||

    Once again, you have demonstrated your retardation for the world. You know, sometimes I feel charitable and assume you aren't this stupid, but then you go and prove me wrong. Every fucking time.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Tastes like chicken, smells like glib.

  • Xenocles||

    Point to Tulpa.

    When a moron makes my coffee wrong, at worst I'm out a fiver. When those morons get credentialed at big-name institutions that have the respect of the movers and shakers, the damage grows somewhat. It's identical to the police argument.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    Well, Tulpa is actually smart for once.

    *golf clap*

  • Ted S.||

    Tulpa seems like a smart ass to me a lot.

  • John C. Randolph||

    There are just as many idiots in every walk as life as there are in the police force

    That may be, but the idiots in other lines of work don't get in my face and demand my papers.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Hey, I got poked and prodded, had to take the MMPI, Rorshach (sp?), Stanford Binet, a polygraph, go through extensive background checks, got pepper sprayed and tased, and had to deal with a 6 month academy full of paramilitary bullshit.

    All I'm asking for is some fucking papers!!!!!!

  • ||

    Probably cause or stow it.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Oh, I hate the other idiots too.

    Mostly for allowing the idiots from the Ivy League to lord of the minutia of my life from their exalted positions in the politburo.

    Maybe if we can deny some of the mysticism and aura surrounding the Ivy League we can move beyond the point where people will believe that the constitution doesn't say what its text simply states because a guy with a degree decrees it so.

  • entropy||

    Why does it deserve being singled out?

    You tell me dude. Why is it singled out? Why does every single politician, all the well connected lawyers, and all the judges all come from just these schools?

    Why does Clarence Thomas actually make a point of preferring non-Ivy schools when selecting his clerks?

    God forbid we acknowledge there are some smart people who didn't go to any school and let any of those yahoos into a position of power - they might try to cut government.

  • Fluffy||

    Because there's a large sector of our economic and cultural life dominated by nonprofits, foundations, and quasi-governmental organizations that are insulated from competition, have an outsized impact on economic and political policy, and are dependent on their own perceived intellectual prestige for influence.

    Those organizations are infested with Ivy League graduates.

    Destroy that sector by eliminating its funding, its tax advantages, and its connections to mixed-economy state policy, and I won't care who goes to the Ivy League.

    I mean utterly destroy it Kulak style.

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    I favor a hunting season; the hunting license feels could be put to paying off the National Debt.

  • Ted S.||

    "hunting license feels"?

    There's gotta be a good, porny joke in there.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Another moldbugger?

  • Voros McCracken||

    I'm a proud graduate of the University of We Advertise on Television.

  • Xenocles||

    In December that's every school with a bowl berth.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    I was thinking the same thing.

  • phandaal||

    The most successful people I know didn't apply to any Ivy League schools. All of the people I know who went to Ivy League schools were cut from a similar cloth, though. As in, one kid whose parents were Egyptologists and another whose parents were filthy stinking rich government exec types.

    I don't know you from Adam, so I'm not saying you're anything like them.

    It does get tiresome, however, seeing the next Ivy League grad on television telling us how she is going to change our lives for the better, whether we like it or not.

  • Rhywun||

    Meh, I got into Cornell but I chose UB (Buffalo) instead. Saved a buttload of $$ and I'm doing just fine in the end. Well, except for the not being President thing.

  • ||

    Who knows, you may still grow up to be president!

  • Rhywun||

    I would rather die with a clear conscience.

  • widget||

    You're a stronger person than me. I could not resist the temptation to swim in the White House pool. Heck, I'd probably pee in it before I got dragged off.

  • ||

    There is always cowboy or astronaut then.

  • entropy||

    This is the example Nick Gillespie should have used.

    There's no way to appeal to people who clap when Bill Maher calls us stoopid racist poopieheads, but perhaps there's small hope for left wingers if they can recognize this.

    It's very easy to describe in Marxist terms they know how to relate to, this is a bonafide class struggle. There's even a left-approved vocabulary ready to describe federalism; Localism.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    When we no monger run the risk of Ivy League schools like Harvard sending supergeniuses like Larry Summers to Washington to manage the economy, I'll downgrade them to mostly harmless.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Harvard didn't send idiots to Washington to run our economy; non-Romney voters did.

  • Irish||

    Goddammit, Tulpa.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Sorry. Need an Advil for that truthache?

  • Irish||

    No, because I voted for Romney for the exact same reason you generally state. I couldn't stand Romney, but hoped he'd be better than Obama.

    The problem I have is this: It's been 6 months and you won't stop talking about it. You can shut up after half a year, you know.

  • ||

    Forget it Irish, it's Tulpa Town.

    Apparently I also re-elected Obama by not spending my precious California vote on Mittens.

  • ||

    Can you get that "you can shut up after half a year" memo to the people who still constantly make Palin/hurrrrr Bush is dumb jokes?

  • General Butt Naked||

    If only...

  • ||

    No, he needs an Advil for his Tulpache. Jesus Christ, just shut up already.

  • Xenocles||

    Yeah, if only I (and another few hundred thousand Washington voters) went for Romney, then he wouldn't have lost the electoral college vote as badly.

    Romney lost by about 5M nation-wide. Even if every third-party voter went for Willard he would still have lost the popular vote badly.

    And even it he had won we still would be stuck with a president who as governor gave us the prototype for Obamacare and signed an assault weapons ban. Plus, even the good things he would want to do would be DOA in the Senate because the GOP couldn't nominate candidates who were smart enough to keep their mouths shut on the stump. You know who wants to hear about your pet theories on abortion? Your opponent's campaign staff. That's all.

  • robc||

    I blame the non-Johnson voters.

  • PACW||

    Yep.

  • John C. Randolph||

    Are you seriously trying to claim that Willard would have been any better?

    I see why everyone calls you an idiot.

    -jcr

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "monger"? That's not what I tuped.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    non-Romney voters did.

    I blame-a mahself.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Holy shit, what a motoGP race.

  • susandaved||

    like Lisa said I am shocked that a mother able to make $6584 in 1 month on the internet. did you see this web link and go to home tab for more detail .. http://www.big76.com

  • General Butt Naked||

    Dude, lisa went to harvard, there's no way she ended up working for some digital butthut for cash.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Why not? Asia Carrera went to Rutgers.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Never heard of her, but with an ethnic-type name like that I'm sure she's hideous.

    /reynold

  • Xenocles||

    "Asia? Sounds Asian to me." /derp

  • ||

    I thought I'd heard Princeton? Maybe that was just urban legend, I mean it's not like I ever bothered to double-check what was on a porn star's resume... well, at least not what's written in the "education" section.

  • Wintermute||

    The Old Mole was a great radical tabloid weekly. It taught me how to beat the draft.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    a mother able to make $6584 in 1 month on the internet.

    Do Harvard's Top Men know about this?

    Regulation is required, Shirley.

  • shamalam||

    All of the supreme court justices came from Ivy League schools, every single one.

  • Zeb||

    Most of the people I know who went to Ivy league schools are marginally employed weirdos.

  • AlmightyJB||

  • General Butt Naked||

    *to dog*

    The DEA's sad, you don't wanna see the DEA when it's sad.

  • Irish||

    Speaking of New York Times op-ed writers, here's what Maureen Dowd wrote in her op-ed yesterday.

    Joe Biden wants the job (presidency). He’s human (very). But he’s a realist. He knows the Democratic Party has a messianic urge to finish what it started so spectacularly with the election of Barack Obama — busting up the world’s most exclusive white-bread old-boys’ club. And he knows that women, both Democratic and Republican, want to see one of their own in the White House and became even more militant while listening to the G.O.P.’s retrogressive talk about contraception and vaginal probes last year.

    Everything about this paragraph is fucking stupid. I'm glad that she finally admitted that the Democrats are nothing but a religious cult, though. I mean seriously 'Messianic?'

    Way to admit the sputtering cultists who helped elect Obama don't actually have a thought in their vacant little heads beyond a vague obsession with demagogues and Christ-figures.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Way to admit the sputtering cultists who helped elect Obama don't actually have a thought in their vacant little heads beyond a vague obsession with demagogues and Christ-figures

    Jesus was a Black man of Nazareth,/He was six feet tall with a 12 inch dick.

  • buybuydandavis||

    I just felt this thrill going up my leg!

  • ||

    Jesus was a Black man of Nazareth,/He was six feet tall with a 12 inch dick.

    I don't know why, but that immediately made me think of this

  • General Butt Naked||

    After the thousands of times that I have watched that video it has never gotten old.

  • Virginian||

    +1 jar of acid.

  • John||

    And perfectly creased pants. Don't forget that pants Mulatto.

  • Arthur||

    Way to admit the sputtering cultists who helped elect Obama don't actually have a thought in their vacant little heads beyond a vague obsession with demagogues and Christ-figures

    That seems to be the pattern. Democracy is a deeply unnatural system, which, if you think about it, really makes no sense. The people aren't really running things, they are merely voting for representatives to do the jobs most do not have the intellectual capacity to understand. How are they supposed to decide who is the best man to do a job that they don't understand? They vote people in power primarily on the advice of other people in power, rather than making the rational choices for themselves. They vote based on the media, their church, and other political leaders. Even when they sense that they are being harmed by certain policies, they know because those in power want them to. How many people would know the unemployment rate if the new stations did not report it? If they said eight percent unemployment is normal? The dynamistisism in politics, the parallels to religion, the emotional nature of politics all contradict the liberal's idea of the people having power, rather than an elite group. An elite group will always have power. The question is which elite group should be given it, and how much they should be given.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    The only advantage to democracy, and it's an huge one, is the ability to throw the elites out when they fuck up.

  • General Butt Naked||

    NY Times columnist goes hunting.

    A bird is killed, but not before the slaying of a strawman and a clutching of pearls.

  • juris imprudent||

    had never acknowledged, in that way, the connection between an animal’s death and my nourishment and pleasure.

    Fuck. I saw the cows we raised killed when I was 7 years old. I caught fish that I ate. This fuck is HOW old and is just now making that connection?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Robin V New JerseyNYT Pick
    How atrocious that a firearm used to kill birds is named for Leonardo Da Vinci. As well as being a visionary artistically, Da Vinci was also light years ahead of his time (and ours) in terms of morality and philosophy. He was an animal rights activist who bought caged birds so he could set them free and also a vegetarian, who abhorred the slaughter of animals for food or any other purpose. In fact, he said this: "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."

    Robin V, you are one stupid and ignorant motherfucker.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Holy shit, that is awesome. No wonder they made him Grand Master of the Priory of Sion.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • General Butt Naked||

    /liberal "gun guy" is interviewed by the NYT.

    He's not as bad as I expected; he's as pro-2nd as Tulpa which is abhorrent for a libertarian, but unheard of in a liberal. The interviewer is a real dick though.

  • General Butt Naked||

    From the comments:

    I trust the police, rather than a random citizen with a gun, to protect me because the police are responsible to me. I pay their salaries. They follow procedures that are more or less transparent and that I and other citizens can influence by exercising our right to vote. If they fail too often, individual officers can be fired (or jailed) and the leadership can be replaced. Police actions are more predictable, transparent, accountable, fair, and efficient than individual citizens doing what seems right to them at the moment.

    Love the liberal copsucking going on in the gun debate, just shows the left's infinite ability to suck up to authority.

  • Irish||

    What I love is the cognitive dissonance in the left's opinion of police officers.

    1. When it comes to the drug war, cops are corrupt, racist individuals who unfairly target minorities and beat up poor people in service to their corporate masters.

    2. When it comes to gun control, cops are benevolent, highly trained warrior poets protecting us from the scourge of frightening southern Republicans.

  • General Butt Naked||

    1. When it comes to the drug war, cops are corrupt, racist individuals who unfairly target minorities and beat up poor people in service to their corporate masters.

    I haven't heard that one in awhile. Not since, ohhh about 2008.

    I read a bunch of comments of gun control articles, and a lefty argument that's favored is:

    "We know that heroin and meth are bad, and that we won't ever totally be rid of them, but we try anyways because they're dangerous. It should be the same thing with guns."

    Lefties only hate authority when they don't have it.

  • SweatingGin||

    Really calls for an entirely credulous response -- or hell, maybe just a reposting of that one -- where every word is a link to a report of police misconduct and brutality.

  • Class of 1998||

    As a graduate of Harvard Law, I call bullshit. Most of the students at these schools are the children of upper-middle-class parents (doctors, lawyers, etc.) with a large number of very bright kids from regular middle-class families. What these schools do is not perpetuate an "upper class" in the traditional sense, but groom kids to fill slots in the nomenklatura.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    I know guys who are making 280,000 and never went to college. I went to a maritime academy and clocked in with less than 80k of debt, and now I'm making $480 a day at the age of 22. Those who still go to an Ivy league school in this day in age are either incompetent or borderline retar There is definitely no shortage of ambulance chasers and corporate lawyers.

  • John||

    They go into law, the media, both of which are dying or academia which is about to die. All they have left is government and finance.

  • ||

    USMM?

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    Nah, out of principle I went to a state academy. I refused to take Federal Aid,and downright refused to go to the taxpayer blackhole that is Kings Point-USMMA

  • John||

    Ivy League graduates dominate in just a few fields. They do not dominate CEO positions, or the military, state universities do. They completely dominate a few select fields, finance, law, government and the media. In short they dominate the all of the insinuations who have most failed and done the most damage to America.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Don't forget banking.

    I think what you're saying is part of the problem. People are given enormous amounts of power in those positions because of their background and where they were educated. This leads to an arrogance unseen even in Victorian Britain, and that hubris fuels the control the government has over our lives.

  • John||

    By finance, I meant banking.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Woops, my atrophied eyes skipped right over that.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    If only there was some way to restrain the arrogance of the elites, for example, by teaching them that they have a responsibility to use their gifts to help the weak and unfortunate, while at the same time reminding them that they are themselves sinful and limited, so they shouldn't be arbitrarily ordering people around and expect to get good results, and that they will be held accountable by some higher authority for any abuse of their gifts or any oppression of the poor and vulnerable...someone better get to work and think up such a philosophy so as to restrain these powerful people.

  • John||

    That is the problem. The loss of religion among our elites is a big problem. Before, our elites were Christian and were taught that their good fortune was the will of God. It made them a bit humble and a bit embarrassed about their success. Now they don't have that. They really believe they earned their place in the world by being better than everyone else. That is why they are so maniacal and that is why they do so much damage.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    That's the problem now, but even before the loss of religious faith there was the idea that human beings (under the leadership of enlightened American elites, of course) would bring about a reign of goodness and peace in preparation for the return of Christ. This put many Protestant elites into the utopia business.

    Now they've dropped the Protestantism and the Christianity, but kept the utopianism, making people like President Wilson seem distinctly humble and modest by comparison.

  • John||

    Christianity teaches that the most humble will raised to the greatest heights. The most powerful person on earth is not any better than the ordinary beggar. Yeah, the old elites ignored that like crazy. But it at least was put in their minds. Now they are told from the time they are children how special they are. It is really terrifying when you think about it.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Yes, Wilson at least believed at some level that he and more humble people were equal before God. His modern successors have kept Wilson's Presbyterian elitism and utopianism, but without the theoretical restraint of contemplating the gulf between God and humanity.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    ^^^^

    YEP.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    I know guys who are making 280,000 and never went to college. I went to a maritime academy and clocked in with less than 80k of debt, and now I'm making $480 a day at the age of 22. Those who still go to an Ivy league school in this day in age are either incompetent or borderline retarded. There is definitely no shortage of ambulance chasers and corporate lawyers.

  • John Galt||

    So you're suggesting future Ivy league selectees like Emperor Obama's daughters instead become merchant seamen.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    What pisses me off the most about the little Antoinettes is that they go to Private School, while their father denies his imaginary sons (black kids in DC) backpack vouchers. My single mother made just enough not for me not to qualify for Private School vouchers and scholarships.

    Women are non existent in the Merchant Marine, especially down here in the Cajun Oil Navy.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Just out of curiosity, how does one get into that?

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    The Merchant Marine?

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yup, I just looked it up after I asked you.

    Do you guys need 4 years of school?

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    There's two paths, the academy route or the "hawsepipe". The academy route consists of attending a state maritime academy for four (those with a bachelors only do two/three) years, along with four, 40-60 day summer "cruises" (one of which is a paid commercial cruise)

    http://www.marad.dot.gov/educa.....demies.htm

    The USCG requires that these academies are structured as regimented Corps schools, although the rigors and toughness is variable from school to school. Upon graduation, each cadet usually receives either a Marine Transportation (3rd Mates License) or Engineering degree (3rd Assistant Engineer).

    The "hawsepipe" is the bottom-up career path. They usually start out as Ordinary Seaman doing grunt work for 6 months. Then the O/S upgrades to a Able Seaman for the rest of his sea time in order to qualify to become a Mate (After 900 days at sea). The average pay during those initial 900 days is 250-300 a day.

    Its not a typical career. You meet lots of people and only work 1/2 the year. Lots of guys are retiring or moving up thanks to the Panama Canal renovation and the addition of more Offshore Supply/ drill ships in the Gulf. I know here in the GoM (Gulf of Mexico) alone there are over 100 ships slated to be launched this year. Its about the only industry that's growing at more than 10% a year.

    The biggest plus is being able to move and live wherever you want.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Thanks for the info.

    I'm about to graduate, and all that I've really learned is that I don't want to spend my life in a lab, behind a computer, or in an office building. I've worked most of my life in kitchens or on construction sites, so sitting all day drives me nuts.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    You are definitely not alone. Those who entered as Freshman like myself are a minority at these academies. Most are either graduates,ex-military or just career changing. Good news is that people like yourself can live off-campus at a few of the academies (ex. Great Lakes).

    Only a few hundred graduate in the U.S each year, so the employment rate within ~60 days is wicked at 90%+. Most of the USMMA KAADETS go on to the Coast Guard or Naval Aviation, so there really aren't many graduates after you take that into account.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    Only a few hundred enter the academies I must add, so don't perceive it as excruciating.

    Plus most of the time you're offshore you have internet (woohoo Reason!) and satellite TV.

    However, if you cant go 2 or 3 weeks without pussy, then you might have a problem.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I'm looking at some of the academies right now. It looks like I have the grades to get in, so far. It's tough, because I'm interested, but after my 6 years in school (I've been working) I am ready to be done with school forever. I hated school as a kid and don't know why I thought going back to college would be a good idea.

    However, if you cant go 2 or 3 weeks without pussy, then you might have a problem.

    My GF has been 3000 miles away for a year and we only see each other every couple of months, so I am accustomed to the monastic lifestyle.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    Maine, Great Lakes, and California Maritime are the most "laid back". I do believe most of them offer automatic admission to those with associates or bachelors degrees.

  • Bingo||

    My career ADD has me interested in this.

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    For me, I looked at it as a "hard" four years to have an easy life. The corps can be the hardest part, because the degree really isn't. The degree is there to land you a desk job if you happen to start a family and just can't survive not doing the 9-5 and being home at night. Marine Engineers are treated as a rare commodity between the Maritime companies and Power Plants, so they can easily go ashore for just as much money.

  • IceTrey||

    Am I confused? What he is talking about isn't meritocracy, it's nepotism.

  • John||

    We have a modified form of nepotism. They set up a system whereby the top people have to go to a certain set of schools. Then they gate keep the admission into those schools by choosing based on criteria that is biased towards kids from the right families. There are a ton of smart kids out there. You could choose randomly and come up with a decent class. So how do you differentiate? What you do is choose based on a bunch of bullshit things that only the kids of the right kinds of families do. Who sets up a charity over seas? Who goes and helps brown people during the summer? That kind of thing. The kind of thing that poor and middle class kids, not matter how smart don't do.

    Now, if you did things stictly like that, you would end up with an all white class. And we can't have that. So we have affirmative action so the minority kids from the right families get in as well. The entire system is set up to ensure that no white or asian kid from a middle class family ever gets in. Only white kids from the right families and minorities from the right families get in.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Damn you John, stole the dang words out of my mouth.

    I was going to comment on the whole "life experience" bullshit in admissions nowadays. You'd think it would mean working at McDonald's to support your family while maintaining a perfect GPA, but no it means you spent a summer in Italy doing habitat for humanity and taking classes in mandarin from a private tutor. Which is sooo tough that the kids doing it barely have enough time to post all the pictures of them partying on facebook.

    And the diversity thing is a big whitewash (harhar) as well. One guy I know is a black dude, he's a good guy, but he's spent every summer abroad doing these sort of things. His parents are NYC doctors, but I have white privilege (must be all those gourmet ramen noodle dinners I had as a kid), so he'll go Ivy League with the same grades I have.

    I don't want to sound like a red flag waving troglodyte, but being in the education system now, knowing what I do, is infuriating. When I'm done, that's it, I'm done with this shit. I'm going into private industry as quickly as I can, and barring that I'll start a landscaping company.

    It's a big thing now to get into good grad schools. I'm constantly told that to get into a good school, I must go overseas to study and do volunteer work. Hey it only costs $20k, but that's the price of admission.

  • John||

    It is total horseshit. The poor and middle class minorities can't even compete for the top schools. The rich minority kids can. SO what they are doing is using affirmative action as a way to make sure their black friends from the right schools get in over yucky middle class white and Asian kids. It is fucking disgusting. And I hope the whole damn system burns down some day.

  • John Galt||

    Those ramen noodle years which do not kill us only serve to make us stronger.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I'm pretty hearty.

  • sarcasmic||

    My stepsister got into Colby. She drove a Ford.

    Then again she was class president, involved in every fucking club, had the pulse on what was popular. I really didn't like her very much.

    Anyway, she had kids, became a normal person, her husband is still an asshole, the end.

  • John||

    Of course, you sister wouldn't have time for that if her parents hadn't supported her or she had to work to help out.

  • John Galt||

    My baby sister won numerous scholarships. Studied at universities in Berlin, Paris, London as well as here in the US.

    She's also the a model statist, a high ranking EPA screw, and a die hard world socialist.

    Dislike would be too mild of term for what I feel for my littlest sister.

    Please feel free to break all her bones. Wouldn't bother me a bit.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Truly, "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."

  • Bingo||

    That's pretty terrible broski. My lil sis is working in Switzerland and getting more libertarian every time I talk to her. Feels good, though I'm a little jealous of her situation considering her reports on the women (apparently Zurich is populated entirely by models).

  • widget||

    Now, if you did things stictly like that, you would end up with an all white class. And we can't have that.

    No John, you'd end up with too many darned east asians.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/.....ei-ron-unz

    And we can't have that.

  • John Galt||

    Douthat. Douwhat?

  • SaltySeaCaptain(LAOL)||

    The Ivy Leagues and Service Academies have become monsters in their own right. Both are taxpayer leaches with notorious nepotism and legacy frauds.

  • Homple||

    "The Meritocracy As We Know It Mostly Works To Perpetuate the Existing Upper Class"

    This is hardly news, you know.

  • John Galt||

    Apparently Jesse just figured out what to a great many has been common knowledge for many years. I applaud him. Yay!

  • John Galt||

    Damn it, I meant to type Douthat*, Jesse.

  • ||

    Am I on your mind for some reason?

  • John Galt||

    Sorry, Jesse, I haven't had enough beer yet. A few more and I'll smooth out.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The infamous James Yeager speaks on the drug war.

  • John Galt||

    I've watched quite a few of Yeager's YT videos, but had no idea his overall views were libertarian.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I watched a few in the past because I'm always watching gun videos.

    After his "controversial" video, I subscribed to his channel.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    OVECHKIN CAN STILL SCORE

  • DenverJay||

    no one mentioned the critique by Nathan M. Pusey? really? OK I will:
    Mmmm...pusey

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