One Cop Killed, Five More Injured in Utah Drug Raid

There's still a lot we don't know about a January 4 raid which turned deadly for one cop (with five other injured, one apparently in a medically-induced coma), but it certainly reads like another instance of drug war casualties that didn't have to happen.

On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.

And then, reports The Salt Lake City Tribune:

When they entered, [Stewart] allegedly started shooting. 

Six officers were hit, and [Jared] Francom died early Thursday morning at Ogden Regional Medical Center. Three of the officers were critically wounded, another suffered serious injuries and yet another has been released from the hospital.

Stewart, who was said to have multiple guns, was wounded but is expected to recover.

Details of the raid are scant at the moment — even this account of a neighbor nervously watching from her "incredible view" of the event offers almost no concrete description of what she saw — but Stewart was eventually arrested at about 9:45, after the shed he was hiding in was surrounded by police. (How Stewart ended up outside is another question.)

Stewart's father (who had been estranged from his son) said that Stewart had been "self-medicating" with weed which he grew for himself, and that Stewart suffered from PTSD, anxiety, and depression. (Stewart is described as "a decorated Army veteran" though he did not serve in combat.)

Stewart's dad also says that his son was probably asleep when police entered, which is why he reacted the way that he did. Unlike previous victims of drug raids Ryan Frederick and Cory Maye who both shoot and killed members of SWAT teams who entered their homes, the subject in this raid did not shoot one person and then surrender. That suggests that Stewart was perhaps less sympathetic than other victims like Frederick and Maye, but not necessarily considering that this is still a story of a bunch of men in SWAT gear abruptly entering someone's home because he was maybe growing a plant. Obvious more details of the raid need to come out before Stewart's motivations can be judged.

On his twitter, former Reason Senio Editor Radley Balko linked to the above Tribune story and wrote "Check out the morning-after photo. These are cops, not soldiers." That photo is to the right (credit to Salt Lake City Tribune). Back in 2009, Balko noted the psychological impact and implications of cops wearing camo in urban environments in his report on the Pittsburgh G-20. This is not a new critique for long-time Reason readers, but it needs to be said often.

New reports are full of the grim details that Francom left behind two young children and that Stewart could be facing the death penalty. What they don't mention, but Balko did, and it can be confirmed by googling, is that Officer Francom was present for the horrifying September 2010 drug raid where cops shot and killed alleged meth-dealer Todd Blair (family said he was just an addict. His former roommate was maybe selling). In the video of that raid, below, I count about five seconds between the yells of "police" and the moment Sgt. Troy Burnett fired at Blair, who was holding a golf club. Watch with caution, though it's not "graphic," it's footage of a man being killed.

The shooting was ruled "justified" under Utah law. And though it was technically a no-knock raid, it still doesn't bode well that the team forgot to bring the search warrant. Other details of how sloppy the raid was can be found at the previous links, but the five-seconds in the video just about say it all.

So no, the late Officer Francom wasn't the shooter here, and my posting the above video is not to suggest that Francom "deserved it." The only point is that Francom is now a link between the two biggest tragedies which result from the idiotic policy of busting down doors for drugs: either the suspect dies, or it's one of the officers. And except in the case of the dependable Balko, news media doesn't seem to have noticed that this whole tragedy could easily have been avoided. Perhaps because the fact of the raid itself was not out of the ordinary; notes The Salt Lake City Tribune in respect to the raid: "'There really was not a great deal that was unique, other than the outcome,' said Strike Force Commander Darin Parke."

Even if Stewart intended to inflict violence on men whom he knew to be police, lives did not have to be ruined or lost. These types of tactics escalate situations which were not violent to begin with. The element of surprise it not worth the risk. There's not a single person whose life should be sacrificed upon the alter of preventing a few drugs from being flushed down a toilet; and if cops were truly worried about gun-toting dealers, they should wait until their suspect leaves the house and then arrest them outside.

Reason on the militarization of police.

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  • Gojira||

    I've got to take a break from Reason for awhile. I am honestly afraid I'm losing some small part of my humanity, because I was in no way saddened or dismayed that the stormtroopers got shot.

    In fact, if I'm being honest, I felt a little cheer that someone was standing up for themselves, defending their home against armed invaders. Maybe make them think twice next time. And I hate the fact that I felt that way.

  • Nipplemancer||

    You're not alone. I said something similar to my wife last night after reading about it. "Is it wrong that I feel no sympathy for a bunch of cops who got shot breaking into some dude's house?" She didn't answer.

  • ||

    Reading bleeding heart libertarians has helped me tone down a lot of my hateful thought. I don't agree with everything they post (I can say the same for reason). I do find the emphasis on empathy and care for other human beings refreshing and something definitely needed in my life right now.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I should probably go there. I feel like Gojira right now.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    I'm a bit conflicted as well. On one hand I have human decency and empathy. On the other . . .

    Those fuckers CHOOSE to dress up like Rambo and storm a guy's house over a goddamn plant. Their actions, dictated to them via vile men, are what got them killed. They are the ones that continuously insist that they prosecute a war in the most violent way possible. They accept a job that entails terrorizing Americans and their families and CHOOSE to fight for the state that has stacked the deck in their favor in an immoral war against people just trying to get through life how they see fit. And had they shot him, they would be gloating about how they are safeguarding America, and ridding her of her scourges. Surely cops everywhere are lamenting that the "scum" didn't get killed by the brave men in FUCKING CAMO, and eagerly anticipate his execution.

    Should we feel badly if it were anyone but cops? Because if the report were that some random dude invaded this guy's house and he was shot, no one would (or should) give a fuck. That they are cops changes nothing.

  • TomK||

    I think these cops want the same respect the military gets without actually taking the same risks.

  • Teenage Girl||

    Eeewww!

  • ||

    In fact, if I'm being honest, I felt a little cheer that someone was standing up for themselves, defending their home against armed invaders. Maybe make them think twice next time. And I hate the fact that I felt that way.

    Our reaction to this story should mirror our reaction to the story of the teenage mom who blew away the guy who was breaking down her door, knife in hand:

    http://www.examiner.com/conser.....otect-baby

    No allowances need be made for the fact that the intruder in the Utah case was wearing a special costume when he committed his crime. The only thing that should dampen your sprits is the fact that this guy is going to stand trial for his non-crime.

  • Ray||

    I'm with you, but the problem I see is that this won't make them think twice, it will embolden them to have even more force when serving such warrants, lest some pesky citizen defend his or herself.

  • ||

    Drone strikes are next.

  • Dave||

    "Unlike previous victims of drug raids Ryan Frederick and Cory Maye who both shoot and killed members of SWAT teams who entered their homes, the subject in this raid did not shoot one person and then surrender. That suggests that Stewart was perhaps less sympathetic than other victims like Frederick and Maye"

    Perhaps if Stewart had managed to kill all the cops he shot, he would be even more of a sympathetic figure.

    Hell, after he realized he had shot one cop and was probably going to be charged with the death penalty for defending himself, maybe he (rightly) figured it wouldn't hurt to try to kill the rest of the bastards.

    Cop shootings have been rising in the past couple years - perhaps because people are getting tired of this shit.

    And you know what? They're right to be tired of this shit.

    Syrian soldiers are facing death to refuse to fire on their own people - and many still refuse. Why do we give cops a pass?

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Cop shootings have been rising in the past couple years - perhaps because people are getting tired of this shit.

    No. Cop shootings are rising (if they really are or not in actually questionable) because they are placing themselves in more situations in which they SHOULD be shot.

    If they weren't busting in to otherwise peaceful homes with guns blazing to prosecute an immoral war on a fucking plant perhaps their jobs would be a bit safer.

    Until they STOP perpetrating violence on us, they can go fuck themselves.

  • RoboCain||

    I have sympathy for those killed on "both" sides. And the WOD is to blame.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    But they're wearing Multicam, and Multicam is cool.

  • ||

    Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    Act like an occupying army, don't be surprised if you occasionally get treated like one.

    Its a shame it happened, of course, but I see no reason to feel worse when the casualty of one of these victimless crime raids is a cop rather than the homeowner.

    By any sane moral calculus, the cops are the aggressors when doing a "dynamic entry" to enforce laws against a victimless crime, after all.

  • Gojira||

    It isn't that I felt "worse"...it's that I was actually a little glad. And I think that's a problem (with me). I should never feel that way about anyone's violent death.

  • ||

    Bullshit -- there are hundreds of people I can name whose violent, painful deaths I'd celebrate with a party, and rightly so -- scum is scum, Jim, and just as murderers and rapists don't deserve compassion, neither do paramilitary police states and the thugs executing their wills

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    The reason for not celebrating the deaths of the shitheads has nothing at all to do with the shitheads: it's about keeping a tight hold on your own humanity.

    Osama--for instance--deserved no sympathy whatsoever, but one of the things that makes you better than him is how you respond to his death.

    Presumably the dead officer had a family. Presumably vast vistas of possibility once opened in front of his young sight. Presumably he could still have made something good of his life. All of that--for whatever it was worth--is gone now.

  • jdb79||

    Well said.

  • Winston||

    Quoth Mark Twain, "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    And presumably he smiled to himself and moved on like a gentleman.

  • Spoonman.||

    You weren't happy when Osama bin Laden died?

    Before people start shitting themselves, I'm not suggesting this cop represented anywhere near the order of magnitude of evil of Osama bin Laden.

    But look at what he chose to do with his life. I don't think those of us who know the War on Drugs is evil should feel ashamed to know its volunteer army is too.

    He's the universal soldier, and he really is to blame.

  • robc||

    You weren't happy when Osama bin Laden died?

    Not particularly.

    I figured good riddance, but wasnt a cause for joy.

  • The Angry RPh||

    "I figured good riddance, but wasnt a cause for joy.

    Same here. I discussed it with a couple of coworkers and we all agreed that the resultant celebrations were a bit, uh, unseemly. What happened to due process and all that?

  • cynical||

    So feel glad for the officer's future victims instead, some of whom may have been saved from assault or murder.

  • Dave||

    No, seriously - you don't have a problem. Evolution has wired us to love justice. You are perfectly healthy.

  • Coeus||

    What? No hat tip?

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    Sorry. I was already aware of the raid. I (always) hat-tip when it's shiny new info for me.

    You're still awesome.

  • Coeus||

    I know.

    But hearing it never gets old.

    Right backatcha, babe.

  • Coeus||

    repost, since I want to make this clear. No sympathy for this cop.


    Coeus|1.6.12 @ 1:35AM|#
    Cops bust down vets door wearing ninja outfits for a marijuana violation and get what's coming to them:

    http://www.policeone.com/drug-.....-shootout/

    I can only hope that this keeps happening. Maybe they'll rethink their tactics. And no sympathy for the cop who died. Here's why:


    Joining the narcotics strike force had long been Francom's dream job, according to his father-in-law, John Frisby. Francom, 30, had worked as a part-time patrol officer and took security jobs on the side until he was finally chosen for the select group.

    It was a "big honor," Frisby said when reached by telephone at his home in Henderson, Nev. "He was good at it."


    Anyone who's dream job is kicking in doors with a team of thugs carrying rifles to cage or kill someone for putting an unauthorized molecule in their body is best eliminated from the gene pool.
  • Gojira||

    I'm afraid of the old "becoming the monster you fight" deal.

    Sure cops don't deserve more remorse or sympathy (which people often act like; "He's a cop-killer, that's extra double bad!").

    But they are still humans, with families, and deserve the same level of sadness as any loss of life due to violence.

    And I'm simply not capable of doing that anymore. And that's frightening I think.

  • Coeus||

    But they don't deserve the same level of sadness. Unless you feel that a violent thug gunned down in the commission of violating another's rights deserves the same level as the victim.

    Sorry, but that's a mental leap I cannot make.

  • Coeus||

    And I'm simply not capable of doing that anymore. And that's frightening I think.

    Frightening or not, it's rational.

  • ||

    So if you hear of a group of thugs entering an old lady's house and she plugs one of the fuckers you have a good cry?

  • Gojira||

    Nice strawman, but no. I don't think I'd cry about the old lady, either. But I think being a humanist means valuing all life equally, and that it's a shame and a failure when any life is lost.

    If the old lady plugs one I may understand it and approve of it (given the circumstances), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't mourn the violent loss of life.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    I've with you, Gojira. I can't pretend I feel less sympathy for this cop than I do for Todd Blair, but I still am sorry about the loss of life.

  • ||

    I wish that I could feel as you do, Jim.

    But, the barrage of violence against the citizenry by (occupying)state actors has caused me to see them as something less than human. It gets worse as the years go by.

    I regret that I feel like that but incidents like this, or the golf club incident, don't inspire any pause in the enforcers of this war on us citizens. Instead we'll see a redoubling of efforts. More guns, more camo, more special op'd out police forces, more death. Less civil liberties, less privacy, less autonomy, less freedom.

  • juris imprudent||

    You think it's bad now. Just wait for the upcoming Defense retrenchment and the mad scramble for LEO customers by LockMartBoeGD with all the cool toys the biggest boys have been playing with.

    Stand still citizen while you are biometrically identified.

  • ||

    Also, if military spending isn't cut, then when they replace all the stuff used in the war the defense department will gift it to local pds.

    I believe this is how the police ended up with military gear in the first place.

    Either way we're fucked.

  • ||

    I'd have felt much better if Katherine Johnston had managed to take one of the scumbags with her.

    I have no problem with the fact that I'm pleased that Oaficer Francom bought the farm. The fact that what he was doing was legal doesn't make it right.
    http://www.drugwarrant.com/wor.....00x353.png

  • nothinghead||

    Where did they find uniforms to fit those guys?

  • ||

    I feel ya, Gojira.

    But I'm kind of with Coeus, here. I know I would have felt worse if that 18 year old widow had died in Oklahoma, rather than the goon who kciked in her door. And I actually think that's not just OK, but right.

  • Gojira||

    Again though, I'm not talking about feeling more sad for one than the other...I'm talking about being actively happy that the guy died. I don't think those two things are the same. One is right, the other not (IMO).

  • ||

    My entire family cheered when Reds started jumping out of the windows of Moscow government buildings in 1991, I cheered when Saddam Hussein hanged (and almost shattered my fist hitting a wall in unbounded, maddened joy, I think), and I'll cheer when, say, Robert Mugabe or Barack Obama die, too, and I'll be proud to do so -- moral equivalencies between a dude smoking pot in his house and murderous thugs, or petty tyrants, are retarded -- no offense, Jim, but they just are

  • ||

    ie, removing evil/evil men is cause for celebration, and by evil, I mean evil by true, libertarian standards -- murderers, rapists, despots, and the like

  • Gojira||

    Sorry RPA, I just don't agree with you. It's a matter of opinion, subjective to alternative interpretations, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

  • ||

    Well, at least we can agree Asian babes can be pretty hot, right? I'll go scour my archives

  • Gojira||

    Oh we agree on a lot more than that.

    And if you're really interested, check out uh-oh.com. Just make sure you have a good firewall; malware out the ass. But tons of free pics and videos everyday. It makes me happy when the wife can't/won't ^_^

  • So||

    To be clear, we're all happy when cops are killed on the job?

  • ||

    When a police officer is shot down when giving a speeding ticket to some thug then I feel sorry. When the police act like an occupying army serving warrants for non violent offenses than no I do not feel sorry.

  • ||

    It's "camo." C-A-M-O. Not "chamo."

    Did y'all miss me?

  • ||

    Camo is what the miltary wears.

    Chamo is what cops that act like they are in the military wears.

  • ||

    I stand corrected. I hope I can remember it.

  • ||

    Yet another law enforcement officer dies while attempting to uphold a failed public policy that has triggered the worst crime wave in history.

    Yet another law enforcement officer dies while attempting to prevent a citizen of this 'once proud and free' nation from choosing to self-medicate with one of God's most amazing plants.

    Yet another law enforcement officer dies in order that unconscionable Transnational Corporations, and their Media Enablers, can continue to abuse, addict and poison us for obscene profits.

    According to the CATO Institute, ending prohibition would save roughly $41 billion of expenditure while generating an estimated $46 billion in tax revenues.

    Maybe many of the early Prohibitionists did not really intend to kill hundreds of thousands worldwide, or put 1 in every 30 American adults under supervision of the correctional system. But similar to our "Great Experiment" of the 1920s, the prohibition of various other drugs has once again spawned rampant off-the-scale criminality & corruption, a bust economy, mass unemployment, a mind-boggling incarceration rate, a civil war in Mexico, an un-winnable war in Afghanistan and an even higher rate of drug-use (both legal & illegal) than in all other countries that have far more sensible policies.

    Prohibition is nothing less than a grotesque dystopian nightmare; if you support it you must be either ignorant, stupid, brainwashed, insane or corrupt.

  • ||

    All of the above?

  • ||

    They drew first blood, not me.

    (stolen from other thread, stolen from Rambo)

  • Carmen Senz||

    If you don't like marijuana, then don't use it.

  • ||

    Something tells me there's alot of copperhead road coming off this story. I'm surprised the guy lived.

    Really though, the drug war probably contributes to more police deaths than any other actions they have to undertake.

  • The Angry RPh||

    ...I'm surprised the guy lived.

    Exactly.

    "Stewart, who was said to have multiple guns, was wounded but is expected to recover."

    My first thought upon reading that was, "Who slipped up?"

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    They want their prison guard brethren to have their shots at making the rest of his life a living hell. If they just shot him, it would be over to quick for those sadistic fucks. So now they get to have a few more shots at him - once the docs fix him up, of course.

  • ||

    Wait, Cops do things other than enforce drug laws?

    I'm actually kind of serious. I live in Orange County, CA: one of the safest and wealthiest areas in the country. Our local cops do two things: write traffic tickets and participate in drug raids. Oops sorry, I forgot one more activity: harass and beat homeless people to death.

  • burnt||

    they never came back from copperhead road.......

  • Almanian||

    Gojira - I feel ya, but I'm headed the opposite direction. Used to feel sad about deaths, got tired of the "War", started to think I was losing my humanity....now I've decided that's the rational path.

    The longer The Public™ tolerates this shit and treats "our fallen heroes" as..."fallen heroes"...we'll just keep getting more of it.

    I'm with cap and RC -

    "They drew first blood"...."Live by the 'shock and awe', die by it".

    Fuckhead authoritarian pricks.

  • Gojira||

    Again though, I'm not talking about honoring the guy as a "fallen hero", I mean having the basic level of compassion for him and his family at the loss of life. Much different than throwing him a parade.

    I just want to make sure there's always a perfectly clear line between their morality, and mine.

  • Dave||

    Not sad for him, sad for his children.

    Poor kids share some of his genes.

  • Nice||

    And sick.

  • ||

    His kids are probably better off not being raised by a tool of the state. Maybe their mother can get remarried to a truck driver or a carpenter that wont teach them busting down doors in the middle of the night is ok in a free society.

  • Ernest Smith||

    Police tried to detain Blair so that he wouldn't be in the house when it was raided, but pulled over the wrong person. Despite that mistake, and despite the knowledge that the roommate had moved out, the raid on Blair was still carried out. It was hastily planned, reported the Tribune, diverting from protocol. Burnett, who shot Blair, told investigators that it is "absolutely not our standard" to carry out such a raid with as little planning as was done, according to the Tribune. It was so hastily carried out, in fact, that police forgot the warrant. According to the Tribune, in the video it obtained an officer can be heard asking: "Did somebody grab a copy of the warrant off my desk?" Burnett replies: "Oh, don't tell me that."

    Given that the shooting here was "justified", "fuckhead" hardly begins to describe this stuff. Why is this not criminal negligence on the part of the cops? Much less incompetence in, say, the auto industry results in massive lawsuits. Rank hath its privileges, indeed.

  • Almanian||

    Also - THANK YOU AGAIN LUCY FOR COMING OUT TO PLAY! YOU'RE THE BEST!

  • GrizzlyAdam||

    I feel sympathy for the kids he left behind. They have to go on without a dad. That's rough.

    When I was a kid one of my friends at school had his dad killed at the John Singer/Marion raid here in Utah. He turned up at school a couple days later, and it was really tough for everyone. Somehow I don't think naming a local police training facility after his dad eased the pain any.

    At some point the general population will be shocked into caring about police violence and the war on drugs. Preventing that however is this unwillingness to question the actions of the cops. Every cop who is KIA is a hero. No matter what.

    I'm not glad a local officer was killed. But when the state wages war, the opposition will shoot back.

  • ||

    I feel sympathy for our society because this didn't happen before he reproduced.

  • Dave||

    Yes.

  • Nice||

    Sick fucks. Reason's best!

  • ||

    Drugs laws aside - sounds like some Monday morning quarterbacking on a Friday afternoon.

  • ||

    It's always monday morning quarterbacking here.

  • fish||

    I'm sure that during the course of the investigation it will be determined that Stewart was following proper procedure!

  • Brendan||

    I'm sure his friends, family, and/or co-workers will be allowed to conduct an investigation and that the DA will accept the results and recommendations of said investigation.

  • Chatroom Crank||

    Just like the cops do anytime citizens do something the state disapproves of. If they don't want citizens judging their actions, then they need to stop doing what they are doing.

  • ||

    Instead of growing up thinking their dad was a hero, and Matthew David Stewart was a deranged criminal who deserved whatever he got (for allegedly growing weed on his property), I hope Francom's kids grow up realizing their dad's loss is a horribly tragic casualty of a war that need never have been started.

    I hope it occurs to them, maybe when they're older, that this pothead across town wasn't doing anything to anybody, and that they'd much rather have their dad back than see Ogden purged of a bunch of harmless potheads.

  • ||

    Except the part about shooting up a bunch of cops. That's where he went from doing something that shouldn't be illegal to being a murderer.

  • ||

    Self-defense is murder now?

  • ||

    It sounds like he damn well knew they were cops.

  • Chatroom Crank||

    "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? . . ."

  • ||

    So you are ready to shoot cops enforcing laws you don't like?

    Has the revolution started? I didn't get the signal.

  • Brendan Perez||

    There won't be a signal in the beginning.

    I think any revolution we see would look more like what we call insurgency in other countries with a lot of small groups fighting the government. It would probably make the revolutionary army of the 18th century look like Special Ops in their planning and execution.

    A lot of bloodshed and a lot of actual innocent loss of life.

    Of course, the government can avoid all of this by doing its part to keep the peace and not merely expecting all of us to be the only ones compromising.

  • ||

    You're awakened in the middle of the night by craziness; yelling, banging, flashlights. You're freaking out, and grab your gun. One of the intruders bursts in yelling something; BAM you plug him.

    "Oh shit that was a cop" you suddenly realize.

    Now, how do you get out alive?

  • ||

    oops @6:19

  • Coeus||

    Now, how do you get out alive?

    In the long term, you don't. Corey Maye's return to his family was an abberation, a statistically improbable occurance. If you manage to live through the next few minutes, like this guy did, you're getting the needle.

    In the short term? Grab as many magazines as you can stuff in your pockets and don't quit moving.

  • ||

    I could see that happening - and I would indeed shoot an intruder dead.

    However, according to the story, the warrant was executed before 9 pm - not the the middle of the night.

    One you realize they are cops you find some cover, announce that you are surrendering, and throw down your weapon.

    You don't shoot more cops. You aren't going to win - and it is the difference between a legitimate claim of self-defense and being executed as a cop-killer.

  • Coeus||

    However, according to the story, the warrant was executed before 9 pm - not the the middle of the night.

    Dude worked nights.

    You don't shoot more cops. You aren't going to win - and it is the difference between a legitimate claim of self-defense and being executed as a cop-killer.

    99.9 times out of 100, it won't matter to a jury.

  • ||

    "Dude worked nights."

    Then why wasn't he at work?

  • Coeus||

    Then why wasn't he at work?

    Cause he worked 3rd shift? Not difficult to figure out. If he works at night and he's home at 9...

  • ||

    99.9 times out of 100, it won't matter to a jury.

    Ryan Frederick + Cory Maye = 2

    Now you need to find 1,998 counterexamples.

  • tarran||

    Hey, they're the ones showing up in our homes late at night with battering rams and body armor.

    If they knocked on the door and presented a warrant like civilized people, you might have a point.

  • ||

    Read the linked article.

  • Nipplemancer||

    OS - Apparently the guy worked the graveyard shift, for him 9pm is the equivalent of your 4 or 5am. I worked a graveyard shift for a few years and had my alarm set for 10:30pm.

  • ||

    One you realize they are cops you find some cover, announce that you are surrendering, and throw down your weapon.

    Oh man, Old Soldier has watched way too many fucking movies.

  • ||

    Oh man, Old Soldier has watched way too many fucking movies.

    Right, he's deluded... Unlike you, who apparently think killing a few members of an armed-to-the-teeth LEO raid team is a strategy for survival.

  • MrDamage||

    At the point of this example, survival simply isn't going to happen. I say pile up a few servants for when I get to valhalla and go down screaming my defiance.

  • Dave||

    Fatal shootings of cops have been rising in the last two years, after years of decline, and even as general crime rates have fallen.

    Yes, the revolution has started.

  • Incredulous||

    Self defense is not murder. Cops raided his home with guns drawn and in military gear. For no fucking reason. He had a basic natural human right to shoot them. The only tragedies here are that he didn't shoot all of them and that he will be prosecuted for the "crime" of self defense.

    You're basically assuming that cops and the state are not bound by basic morality and that "following orders" gives them the right to do whatever the fuck they want. It wasn't an excuse for the Nazis and it isn't an excuse now.

  • Dave||

    +1

    Question: As the mood of the people changes, can a jury be found that will convict Stewart for acting in self-defense? I hope not.

  • Oh Dave||

    The dry-cleaners called. They shrank your black hoodie.

  • ||

    It's sad that anyone has to die over pot use. Period.

  • ||

    Millions of Americans are prohibitionists, and that's saying something -- how the fuck are we going to change their minds?

  • fish||

    how the fuck are we going to change their minds?

    We're not! We've devolved into a nation of self righteous busy bodies! I don't care if my fellow citizens snort gasoline or battery acid.....fuck them...just go ahead do it before you dirty up the gene pool further and continue to give the authoritahs additional excuses to continue send overpaid thugs to kick in peoples doors!

    Friday nutpunch indeed!

  • cynical||

    Plant pot on them and anonymously tip the cops off. It might not change their minds, but narrative morality tells me that those that create or release monsters must be their first victims. And hey, felons can't vote in a lot of places, so once all the WoD supporters are in jail on bullshit drug charges, we can end it and release them.

  • ||

    Awesome. I like it.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Thanks for the video nut punch. I was just getting ready to shut down and head home from the office, when I decided to just check in one last time. I'm just so glad I did. It will make the bourbon taste so much better later tonight.

  • ||

    Maybe I should be a little embarrassed or ashamed to admit it, but I literally went red in the face and gave myself bloodshot eyes watching that video, and my fuming after viewing the murder of Jose Guerena was even worse -- I've come to realize clearheadedly and unashamedly, however, that I hate these people, and that I have every right, reason, and proportional cause to hate them, all the way to their damned, forsaken graves (malevolent statists and power-abusing thugs)

  • ||

    I've always admired your hardcore anti-authoritism, RPA.

    After showing/linking vids and articles of police abuse, many of my pro-police aquaintances are starting to re-evaluate their thinking.

  • ||

    I'm so enraged, I can't see straight. This cop's death is a direct result of the militarization of the police, the disregard departments have for proper Constitutional service of warrants and a "safety at the expense of liberty" mentality that exists in the general public.

    I wish this cop's unfortunate death would serve as a wake-up call to idiot soccer moms, sheriff's and police departments, prosecutors and politicians that want to fuck people out of their rights to live the way they want. But I know it won't be.

    This death is no less tragic than others that cops cause. Too bad the reaction to it will be so drastically different. RIP, Mr. Francom: another mindless death in a war we shouldn't be fighting.

  • Gojira||

    Thanks; that's the sentiment I was going for.

  • robc||

    While ending the WoD would be the easiest fix, ending no-knock raids is important too.

    Knock, wait for answer, serve warrant politely, search house.

    Something is fucking wrong, what with the militarization of the police and the policization of the military. How can otherwise reasonably educated people (and most of our pols are some level of bright) get these so confused?

  • ||

    ^^This cann't be mentioned often enough. Well pointed out robc.

    An even easier thing to do would be to pull the property owner over once out of the house, and then take him to the house and search it then.

    Injuries are much rarer when the person under investigation is stopped outside his/her home, rather than surprised by having their door kicked in virtually unannounced.*

    *standard disclaimer about how these raids would never take place if the idiotic WoD were simply ended.

  • ||

    I agree. That should always be the first choice - unless they guy just never leaves.

    According to the article, they thought this was a routine search, knocked and identified themselves - before 9 pm. Doesn't say how long they waited before entering.

    I've been outraged at some of these in the past - but the circumstances in this one seem to favor the cops.

  • Coeus||

    According to the article, they thought this was a routine search, knocked and identified themselves - before 9 pm.

    He works 3rd shift.

    Doesn't say how long they waited before entering.

    We have video evidence of how long they wait. A few seconds. No more. If you think that's enough, you must be a very, very light sleeper.

  • MrDamage||

    Yeah, just long enough for the victim to wake up and, sleep mazed, make a bad choice. It's like they wanted an excuse to carve a notch in their barrel.

  • ||

    I thought the video was an different case?

  • Mensan||

    Stewart served in the Army from July 1994 to December 1998, spending a year based in Fort Bragg, N.C., and nearly three years stationed in Germany, Army records show.

    He held a post as a communications equipment specialist, earning an Army Achievement Medal and a National Defense Service Medal. Both are given for completing active service, although they don't indicate exceptional acts of valor.

    A few issues here:
    Army enlistments are typically done in 3-year or 6-year increments. 4 years and 5 months of service is very unusual, unless the Soldier has been stop-lossed, which wasn't the case since stop-loss wasn't in effect during those dates, or was discharged early for some other cause (e.g medical or disciplinary).

    The Army Achievement Medal is not "given for completing active service." It is awarded to a Soldier "who distinguished himself or herself by meritorious service or achievement." You must perform beyond the expected scope of your duties to earn a medal. Although, I will grant that the AAM is the easiest medal to earn. I have three of them, and none of them were for completing active service.

    Stewart suffered from PTSD, anxiety, and depression. (Stewart is described as "a decorated Army veteran" though he did not serve in combat.)


    I don't see anywhere in the linked article where is says his PTSD was combat related (admittedly, I only skimmed the article). I also didn't see anywhere were it said that he never served in combat. Many units in Germany deployed to Bosnia during that time. Does getting shot at by snipers count as combat? If so, then I can assure you we were engaged in combat there. However, even if he never saw combat, that's not even the leading cause of PTSD. I'm not saying I think he actually has PTSD. I have no idea if he does or not.

  • ||

    The only other reason I kind think of is an injury or wound could have kept him on active duty during the recovery period after the active portion of his enlistment contract was up.

  • ||

    Unfortunately, the people who conduct these raids (and lobby actively in favor of the laws which drive them) are not sufficiently self-aware to seriously contemplate their part in this. They will ask the Feds for tanks.

    "Empathy and care for other human beings" my ass.

  • Brendan Perez||

    Agreed.

    I've come to a parallel conclusion when dealing with people who respond to my criticism/dislike of police tactics with some variation of "Somalia", we've got to have police, etc.

    I don't come close to advocating that we eliminate the police departments, or declare open season on any cop. I always point out specific behaviors, policies, etc. and always get some comment like "Somalia" OR how I would think differently if there were no police.

    I can only think that they see no real problem with what the police are doing and that my criticism is tantamount to wanting them all killed or the department disbanded.

    The other thing I've seen in some people is an attitude that I've seen described elsewhere as mercenary by proxy.
    They LIKE that the police use that kind of force on "bad" people because they have, or could have in the future, someone for whom they would like that kind of force deployed against. They can never really be convinced that what can be done to their neighbor or someone who wrongs them can also be done to them. There's always an exception, always a reason why "that would never happen to me".

    I also notice a lot (boy is it a lot) get angry while they dismiss and hand waive discussions of improper policies/actions. From tone or verbiage I infer that they know it's immoral/excessive, but also can't bring themselves to 'bite' the hand that "protects all of us" ie., can be used to crush someone who harms them.

  • Brendan Perez||

    Obviously, two wrongs don't make a right. BUT, the best I could muster was indifference.

    If I read stories where street gang A robbed and killed someone in their home, I would be disgusted (my outrage capacitors are burned out, so no outrage) and would hope that they are brought to justice. If later, I heard that members of street gang B broke into a member of A's house and robbed and killed him, I would feel indifference. I would still want the members of B to be brought to justice, but would have zero sympathy for the person who got killed.

    Indifference at best. At worst and with a little snark, I would say that that area's a little safer with one less stormtrooper thug around.

    As I've read the different accounts, I float in the middle and take the approach that this police department got what was coming to them in that what goes around comes around. They had no problem sending a team into a person's house in the middle of the night with, at best, insufficient warning and had no issue gunning him down without warning (yelling while you're shooting is not warning).

    The whole culture is screwed. The police have seriously exaggerated the dangers they face and have done everything they can to avoid those exaggerated dangers which translates into them doing everything they can to avoid accepting/assuming any risks or dangers of these kinds of raids, and even their non-raid actions. This whole process enhances the overall risk while also pushing all of it on to the average citizen. This kind of a double strength cowardice.

    There is nothing heroic, brave, noble, courageous, ethical, or even decent in a group of people with superior numbers, training, armament, armor, planning, and the element of surprise bursting into homes and killing surprised occupants who are given no time to identify the intruders, much less comply with any instructions.

    [Obviously, this is nothing new to anyone who frequents these forums]

    I always think that if firefighters took the same approach to risks and danger, they wouldn't go into any building. Instead, they would stay outside and either level the building or wait until it collapses, then use their hoses to extinguish the rubble. All the while, talking about how heroic they are and complaining that people would be dead right and left without their heroic actions...

    Eventually in the name of protecting themselves and others from "the dangers of fire", they would begin leveling or severely damaging buildings in response to even small fires. Small kitchen fires would see large holes knocked in houses and massive amounts of water sprayed from a distance, thus destroying most or all of the house. Smoke from underneath an engine would result in 2 engines rolling, pieces of the car being cut away, etc.
    (You get where I'm going with this, I hope.)

  • Mensan||

    I always think that if firefighters took the same approach to risks and danger, they wouldn't go into any building. Instead, they would stay outside and either level the building or wait until it collapses, then use their hoses to extinguish the rubble. All the while, talking about how heroic they are and complaining that people would be dead right and left without their heroic actions...

    That's exactly what they do around here. Are you saying that's not how all fire departments operate?

  • Chatroom Crank||

    I have seen that from the "professional" firemen. Any time I have seen volunteer departments they actually try to save the property if at all possible.

  • robc||

    End the WOD and both sides get to live and live free.

    Simple solution.

    Why is this so fucking hard for some people?

  • ||

    Why is this so fucking hard for some people?

    Because too many people are simply unable to live and let live. It's just not in their DNA. That's why people like Obama, Santorum, et al. tend to be successful.

  • Coeus||

    Because too many people are simply unable to live and let live. It's just not in their DNA.

    I think that number is about 80%.

  • ||

    And it probably skews even higher in fire-and-brimstone states like Utah. I bet voir dire is gonna be a cakewalk for the prosecution.

  • ||

    What are the odds Holder has already made a statement blaming the GUN CULTURE for this tragedy, and hammering the dire need for tougher gun laws?

  • Crickets||

  • ||

    Why is this so fucking hard for some people?

    They're too busy peering behind every bush and under every rock for evidence of racism.

  • Brendan Perez||

    I like the alt-text. I almost don't notice the uniforms anymore. I've gotten so used to the fatigues or black ninja gear and only rarely do I recognize it and have that moment where I think "Cops shouldn't dress like that"

    I had a strong nostalgia style flashback to when I was about 10 after I watched Silence of the Lambs again the other day and saw the uniforms the "SWAT" team was wearing.

    I lived in Reno/Sparks and vaguely remember hearing that one of the agencies-most likely Washoe County Sheriff or Reno PD were building, getting, or maybe just expanding a SWAT team and it was actually news. I also remember a couple of us asking the DARE officer about its function.

    Anyhow, look at the uniforms they were wearing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JaGSX-3WJg

    What they're wearing in the clip reminds me of the videos from the early/mid 80s and LAPD's SWAT Team.

  • ||

    I sure hope none of those cops were hit by "friendly fire". I couldn't live with that.

    I'm thirsty.

    THUUUUUUUURSTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

  • juris imprudent||

    That thought [friendly fire] occurred to me as well.

  • Jamey Kirby||

    Reminds me of the Praetorian Guard.

  • Dave||

    Wasn't the Praetorian Guard more professional?

  • Paul||

    So I was playing my Christmas present, Battlefield 3 online for the first time last night.

    There was a player whose handle was LawMan101 in full swat-esque gear, running and gunning and kill-streaking everything in his path.

    God I wanted to take him out so bad.

  • Coeus||

    Not a real cop. Real cops wanna be batman. Check out the avatars on policeone sometime. It's like 30 or 40 percent batman.

  • Paul||

    It's been my experience that if the handle has "lawman" in it, it's a cop. Otherwise it's a very strange handle for a 16-yr-o kid.

    But from the actual avatar, side, I believe you.

  • ||

    I've been to that site and can vouch for this.

    Also, that site scares the shit out of me.

  • Paul||

    I just went to that site because my curiosity came up. I've browsed about 20 forum posts with good participation and I didn't see a single batman avatar.

    What I saw:

    Marine Symbol.
    German Shepard
    Police Baton
    Glock 19
    Bulldog with spikey collar
    Lonestar stylized state of Texas
    Drunk guy on horse next to brick wall?
    Group of british cops on bicycles (my favorite)
    Some combat knife
    Harley Davidson symbol with police badge.
    Twinkling stars American sheild with eagle on front
    5 point sheriff star.
    SW 357 with handcuffs
    Unidentified 1911 model pistol
    Various police/badge symbols
    Some kind of fox-looking thing.
    Cartooney looking duke-nukem type of head
    Nuclear symbol
    Alien head

    Now I'm disappointed.

  • Dave||

    Yeah, I've seen that site. Any time one cop suggests the slightest bit of restraint (hey guys, maybe we shouldn't beat the shit out of little old ladies who we've already put in handcuffs for disrespecting our authoritah) most of the other cops rag him for being soft, and the remainder moan that the public will never "understand" the hardships that cops face every day.

  • Paul||

    As for the site scaring the shit out of you... yeah.

    I perused two forum posts where I was so goddamned tempted to jump in and say, "uhh, yeah, demanding that I lift my shirt and show you down my pants does constitute a search".

  • ||

    Someone has posted stuff from there in the comments here in the past.

    The threads that feature a news story of a cop killing a civilian are chilling. One thread in particular had like three different batman avatars.

    The worst avatar that I saw was a silohette (sp? who cares?) of a cop beating someone with their hands up in a defensive position.

  • cynical||

    Doubtful, Batman is firmly committed to non-lethal ass-beating even when dealing with people that are guaranteed to escape prison/institutionalization for the 800th time and go on a murder spree. And he pretty much solely deals with murderers and terrorists and the like.

    Batman is the anti-cop.

  • Coeus||

    I think they're going for the Frank Miller Batman from the 80's.

  • Dave||

    We could use a bit less Frank Miller and a bit more Barney Miller.

  • ||

    Wouldn't "LawMan101" be like a freshman Criminal Justice Major?

  • *||

    God I wanted to take him out so bad.

    Your violence fantasies will end only in frustration. Why not get a real gun and shoot a real cop like a real man, tough guy?

  • Jim||

    So only real men shoot cops? I cant wait until I become a "real man"

  • ||

    Also, activities like these no-knock raids activate the fight-or-flight mechanism. Police should not be surprised when some people fight back.

  • Paul||

    I'm beginning to think they're not surprised, but that they actually want it. I mean, you dress up in all that military gear, get your assault rifle on, and no one shoots back? Total buzzkill.

    And of course, I haven't read the whole thread and I'm sure someone's already made the point, but this will now be used as an excuse as bolster why we do these military style raids in the first place and why we need to raid harder next time.

  • ||

    I'm beginning to think they're not surprised, but that they actually want it. I mean, you dress up in all that military gear, get your assault rifle on, and no one shoots back? Total buzzkill.

    I disagree. I think the rush for these guys is sticking an automatic weapon in the face of some terrified, unarmed homeowner. I think they've become habituated to instant, terrified submission, and are thoroughly unprepared for the possibility that someone might fight back. After all, isn't that the way it always is with bullies?

    I bet when the dust settles and the facts become known, we'll learn there was absolute chaos from the moment they kicked in that door, and that at least one of the wounded was shot by a fellow officer (the term "friendly fire" sounds somewhat obscene here).

  • Coeus||

    I was gonna quote parts of that comment to agree with, but I'm just gonna go ahead and say that everything you just said is almost certainly correct.

  • ||

    Thanks . . . and that's a large part of why I can't muster up much sympathy for the cop. For his wife and kids, absolutely; but I just can't bring myself to think of Mr. Francom as a victim.

  • RoboCain||

    I'm surprised meth heads would act impulsively.

  • ||

    According to the article, they knocked.

  • MrDamage||

    Did they make sure that the householder was right next to the door when they "knocked" so he could answer it in time to avoid having it reduced to splinters?

  • robc||

    Did they wait 2-3 minutes to give time for a sleeping individual to wake up, put on pants, and come to the door?

    If not, it was done wrong.

  • ||

    It serves these asshole police right. How do they expect people to react when they are surprised within their own homes often times while the residents are sleeping.....homes that we used to have a right to defend and protect.

    The adrenaline junkie police will only stop this abuse when the failed drug war is stopped. It is clear that government heavy handedness does not work. I hope that people start to fight back and that these police oppressors begin to take rounds and casualties until the cost becomes so great that the police finally back down. They give a damn about the lives of the citizens. Why give a damn about the police aggressors.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7u91A3KGQ

  • Sevo||

    "It is clear that government heavy handedness does not work."

    Not to a lot of people:
    "The regulations didn't work; we need more of them"
    "The stimulus didn't work; we need to spend more"
    Etc.
    If you believe the government is the solution, failure only indicates there's not enough of it.

  • Juice||

    These types of tactics escalate situations which that were not violent to begin with.

    Sorry. PP.

  • ||

    That suggests that Stewart was perhaps less sympathetic than other victims like Frederick and Maye, but not necessarily considering that this is still a story of a bunch of men in SWAT gear abruptly entering someone's home because he was maybe growing a plant.

    Um, no. Sympathy is conditioned on the possibility that he didn't know these were cops acting on a warrant when he fired.

    I don't care if the law you're breaking is stupid, that's not a license to shoot anyone.

  • ||

    Fuck off. You don't get to tell anyone where their sympathy can be directed.

    I direct mine at victims of state sponsored violence, like Matthew Stewart. You direct yours toward jack-booted baby burners; as is your right.

  • God||

    You don't get to tell anyone where their sympathy can be directed.

    No, but I sure as hell do.

    Now fuck off, Tulpa.

  • ||

    Direct your sympathy where you like. If you direct it at someone who knowingly and intentionally killed cops serving a warrant, that's pretty sick though.

  • *||

    Capitol l: repulsive H&R anarchist or repulsivest H&R anarchist?

  • ||

    Nah. I've seen a lot worse.

  • ||

    And he is reasonable most of the time. These nutpunch flashback stories bring out the worst in all of us.

  • ||

    Awww, whine-bot are you sad that the cops didn't get to kill another civilian?

    Don't worry, you've still got that golf club murder vid to jack off to.

    Maybe you could use the search box to find some bad things those meany Reason commenters said about the heroes in blue. That'll give you something to do until you get more spank material cop kills citizen vid is up on youtube.

  • Crickets||

  • robc||

    If the law is unconstitutional, then their action is unconstitutional, and even if following procedure, they are violating his rights and are thus the functional equivalent of a burglar.

    Illegal home invasion is illegal home invasion.

  • SIV||

    From a pure survival point of view shooting makes sense even after realizing they are cops if you are already pointing a weapon at them.

  • ||

    Especially if they just killed a guy down the road for holding a golf club during a raid.

  • ||

    That's ridiculous.

    Ryan Fredericks put the gun down after one shot when he realized it was cops. Ditto Cory Maye. They survived. (yes, they did jail time which was bullshit, but they survived)

    You ain't gonna outgun a raid team. So your strategy is guaranteed to get you killed.

  • SIV||

    You ain't gonna outgun a raid team. So your strategy is guaranteed to get you killed.

    FAIL
    See original post.

  • SIV||

    Even if he didn't know that. I wouldn't expect a SWAT team to issue a "drop your weapon" command(and refrain from shooting to see if you do) once they are staring down the muzzle. He's staring down 6, shooting fast and accurately may be the best option for short-term survival. I wouldn't expect a jury made up of anyone but select Reason commenters to agree.

  • ||

    There was actually a Picket Fences episode with that same premise.

    A drug dealer is sitting in his house; cops bust in; he has an uzi in his hand.
    Pled self-defense claiming that once the cops saw the uzi he'd definitely be killed. Got off.

  • ||

    I hate to break it to you, but Picket Fences was not a documentary.

  • Comentariat||

    Fantasy, reality...who can tell the difference?

  • ||

    Hey everybody, it's the two assholes who think morality can only be achieved through authority worship.

    In one place!

    Keep lickin' dem boots, boys! It's really tough to get civilian blood out of them jack-boots, but I'm sure your tongues are up to the job. You've both had lots of practice.

    And no, the cops aren't gonna love you back, but keep hoping!

  • Crickets||

  • ||

    A mugger improves his chances of short-term survival by immediately killing a victim who tries to pull a gun out.

    Would you acquit a mugger of murder under those circumstances?

  • MrDamage||

    no, but I'd acquit the victim if the positions were reversed.

  • ||

    The mugger initiated the violence so no.

  • ||

    ding ding ding

  • ||

    Another case for ending this abomination called the Drug War. It's not just innocent civilians getting victimized, it's good cops getting hurt and killed too.

  • ||

    There was an article in this afternoon's newspaper with a headline about "[Dead cop] Died Doing What He Loved".

    If that's what he loved, I hope he died terrified and in pain, drowning in his own blood.

  •  ||

    Oh Brooksie, still the humanitarian, I see.

    Has anyone told you (lately) that you're a repellent piece of shit?

  • ||

    Drunk guy on horse next to brick wall?

    Lee Marvin in Cat Ballou, I reckon.

  • 0x90||

    Dammit, Steigerwald.

  • Comment Anyway!||

    There's still a lot we don't know...

    Hahahahaha.

  • Blast from the past!||

    This seems like a good time to paste in H&R's greatest "kill the cops" violence-fantasy thread ever. Take it away, mutants!

    The Right Attitude|7.29.11 @ 8:20AM
    Whenever I open a paper and a cop somewhere has been shot, I cheer inside.
    When stuff happens like that shooting in Washington where a bunch of cops bought it at once, I cheer OUT LOUD. Golf claps for the shooter all around.

    varados|8.1.11 @ 5:21PM
    In a different age, and in a different part of the world, the individual policemen, their wives, children and assorted relatives would have been hacked to death, dismembered, and dragged to a promontory by this man's family, where wolves and vultures would have performed a clean up. What a shame we don't live in that age.

    Cheeseburger|8.1.11 @ 5:55PM
    Public hanging would be a good option. Then leave the bodies for the crows with a sign saying "New Professionalism"

    Anon|8.1.11 @ 11:06PM
    Can anyone get us the names and addresses (or just names, we can get the addresses ourselves) of these murderers? I think there are some people that would like to meet these upstanding members of society.

    m'Artagnan|8.1.11 @ 8:57PM
    I hope that upon conviction they too are beaten within inches of death.

    Todd Junker|8.2.11 @ 9:49AM
    Execute these thug pig cops NOW. Any police personnel or politician public servant whom betrays the sacred trust of We The People should be executed on national television with extreme prejudice.

    Restoras|8.2.11 @ 11:01AM
    This is an unbeleivable, unacceptable, inhuman outrage. The cops that did this went so far beyond the pale that their is no difference between them and any SS camp guard or einsatzgruppe. Eye for an eye - they should be beaten to death with their own flashlights.

    Matrix|8.4.11 @ 4:05PM
    The prosecutor needs to be tarred and feathered... preferably with boiling tar.

    Res Publica Americana|8.4.11 @ 4:11PM
    The primary beater in Kelly Thomas' murder gets molten steel poured down his throat. Set a few examples.

    Phlogistan|8.4.11 @ 4:28PM
    Taze them till the polyester melts..

  • ||

    I'm usually the wet blanket in those sorts of discussions, but I'd be totally OK with trying them and putting them in front of a firing squad when found guilty. They committed first degree murder as far as I'm concerned.

  • Libertarians||

    We don't believe in the death penalty!

    Hahahahaha!

  • ||

    Tulpa and whine-bot:

    "We don't believe in self-defense for non-state actors!"

    Hahahaha!

  • Whine-bot™||

    I fully support the 2nd Amendment. Which was written by your hated "State," by the way.

    But I comprehend your frustration and anger. It sucks to be an anarchist, a class of intellectual delinquents who even the Left won't have.

    But cheer up. The Libertarian house is big enough to harbor political dwarves. They've reserved a cabinet for you in the basement, next to the water heater. Try not to make too much noise. That's a good boy.

  • ||

    Jesus, you're stoopid. You can't even whine about things correctly.

    Your first and second sentences are revealing. Because behind all of that crying, whining, and bitching you do there isn't an intellect to back it up.

    The second amendment was never mentioned,first of all. And second of all I don't even know how to respond to:

    Which was written by your hated "State," by the way.

    because what you wrote is pretty much nonsense. Also, I never claimed one couldn't be a boot-licking complainer and support the 2nd amendment, as well. You are obviously proof that one can obtain such a lofty position.

    And, if anarchy is defined as a society where armed men don't storm into your house unannounced because you grew an unapproved plant, then call me an anarchist. Otherwise, your insults fall flat.

    Your last four sentences are just some weak insults that don't really have any bite. I'd figure that a guy who jacks off to videos of cops killing civilians would have a little more acid in his bile. The libertarians have reserved a cabinet in the basement for me; is that supposed to mean something?

    Quick question, are there any people in your life that can withstand your constant barrage of bellyaching.

    Do you get your ass beat a lot?

    What's it like to spend Christmas all alone save your Rodney King beating VHS tape and a jar of mayo?

    Does your chin do that wrinkly thing when you get all weepy and decide to post on Reason? I bet it does.

  • ||

    But I do believe in self-defense for non-state actors. That's why I think Cory Maye and Ryan Fredericks shouldn't have been prosecuted, because it's plausible that they didn't realize the people entering their house were cops serving a warrant.

  • Whine-bot™||

    Yup.

  • ||

    It's good that you use your psychic powers to know what Matthew Stewart knew.

    That's awesome, can you use those powers to know whether or not he feared for his life as he fired?

  • ||

    /what I think you have here is Obamas promise.

    "A civilian army just as well armed and as funded as the military"

    If the police keep these tactics up, there will be push back from the civilians in this country....soon!!

    I smell the revolution just around the corner, and if the elections are some how canceled to rid ourselves of this tyranny it will be game on

  • New World Order||

    "We must condition the citizenry to accept the Federal boot on the throat and Ever Higher Taxes to fund it."

  • ||

    Eh, maybe he will get his name on the Drug War Wall.

  • blakemann||

    I hope the public and law enforcment understand that regardless of who enters a trained military members home that in most cases someone will end up shot and most likely killed. I am a prior marine who has served in Iraq and across the globe and even though I was not infantry I too have skills and an hightened awarness and response time to anyone invading my home from hours and hours of training drills. My advice to law enforcemnt would be to arrest prior or current military members in public not their home, use common sense, and do not storm into a mans home who has been trained to repel exactly what you are doing expecting it to be a cake walk.

  • ||

    Personally, I think society is fucked up beyond all salvation. I support Ron Paul, but there is not way he ever be allowed to take office even if every single American voted for him and if by some miracle he were nominated and became President, he would most certainly be executed. The rot goes right to the core of this country.

  • Winston||

    Good riddance to the Ogden PD as a whole.

  • photonboy||

    So you have a gang of camo-clad narco-cops carrying military assault rifles busting down the door of a peaceful, sleeping citizen in the middle of the night because they thought he *might* be growing and smoking his own cannabis, and he defends his "castle" from a violent invasion and one of the invaders is killed, maybe by his own fellow invaders.

    And we're supposed to feel sorry for the violent invader who was killed?

    Really?

    Sorry but no sympathy here, not for the invaders. I feel sorry for the cop's family, wife & kids, the same way I'd feel sorry for the family of any other murderer, who had to suffer because their loved one was a killer who died by the same sword he wielded.

    The chief of police of Ogden needs to profoundly and sincerely publicly apologize to this citizen and pay for all medical expenses and damage to his home. Then he needs to indict the police officials who approved this raid and put them on unpaid leave until their court dates.

    The officers who raided the home should be relieved of their badges and weapons and indicted for attempted murder, assault, battery, trespassing, using a gun in the commission of a felony, and capitol murder for being responsible for the death of the killed officer, which was a result of their felony attack on this citizen.

    Then the chief should resign.

    Then he should go to church and beg forgiveness from his chosen deity for the death and sorrow he has caused

  • Jim||

    Couldn't have said it better myself. Well put

  • ||

    Now that Prohibition is history how are we supposed to feel about all the cops that got shot down enforcing it? A waste or heroes?

  • ||

    Utah is a "castle doctrine" state. The government must prove that the warrant was lawful and properly executed. Until this happens, I am siding with the home owner.

  • ||

    utah justice~cant cetch wife and child killers, but they can sure terrorise the pot users, while they lead the nation in overdoses of the chemical synthetic crap they love so much

  • ||

    God bless Matthew Stewart! A true veteran defending his home and his life against homeland terrorists gone mad -

  • ||

    Ironically a woman made the news about home invaders in her home, calling 911 asking for permission to shot them, it was given, she shot = no charges filed!
    But our retuned veterans fighting for our so called liberties, cant even use a God given HERB that actually soothes post tramatic stress without getting these goonies let loose in one's sacred home to wheck havoc! Oh well, every thing Hitler's
    gestapo did in their day was legal too!

  • Jim||

    I'm so elated that the pig Jared Francom was killed He died in vain that make me feel better about the inustices the police cause The man who killed the cop is a TRUE AMERICAN the cop who died just a puppet with uncle sams hand up his ass controlling him

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