Reason.tv Replay: To Surly, With Love - Are Teachers Overpaid?

Original release date: March 3, 2011

Public school teachers are at the forefront of protests against state budget cuts and restrictions on collective bargaining rights in Wisconsin, New Jersey, Ohio, and elsewhere.

Teachers have a lot to lose. According to Department of Education statistics, in 2007-2008 (the latest year available), full-time public school teachers across the country made an average of $53,230 in "total school-year and summer earned income." That compares favorably to the $39,690 that private school teachers pulled down.

And when it comes to retirement benefits, public school teachers do better than average too.According to EducationNext, government employer contribute the equivalent of 14.6 percent of salary to retirement benefits for public school teachers. That compares to 10.4 for private-sector professionals.

Those levels of compensation help explain why per-pupil school costs have risen substantially over the past 50 years. In 1960-61, public schools spent $2,769 per student, a figure that now totals over $10,000 in real, inflation-adjusted dollars. Among the things that threefold-plus increase in spending has purchased are more teachers per student. In 1960, the student-teacher ratio in public schools was 25.8; it's now at a historic low of 15.

Among the things all that money hasn't bought? Parental satisfaction, for one. Despite public teachers' much-higher salaries, parents with school-age children in public schools report substantially lower satisfaction rates than parents with children in private schools. In 2007, the percentage of parents with children in assigned public schools who were "very satisfied" with the institution was 52 percent. For parents whose children attended public schools of choice, that figure rose to 62 percent. Parents sending their children to private schools, whether religious or non-sectarian, were "very satisfied" 79 percent of the time.

It's little wonder that parents with little or no choice report the lowest-levels of satisfaction (about 90 percent of K-12 students attend public schools). Despite all the extra resources devoted to public school teachers and students, student achievement has been absolutely flat over the past 40 years. The National Assessment of Educational Progress is "the largest nationally representative and continuing assessment of what America's students know and can do in various subject areas." When it comes to 17-year-old students (effectively, high-school seniors), nothing has changed since reporting began in the early 1970s. In 1971, 17-year-old students averaged 285 points (out of 500) in reading. In 2008, that had risen to 286. For math in 1973, the average score was 304 (out of 500). In 2008, it was 306.

Public school teachers make about $14,000 a year more in straight salary than private school teachers; when you add in benefits, the gap widens even more. They teach fewer students than ever before and taxpayers at all levels spend increasing amounts of money on education. Yet for all that, the best you can say is that we're spending more than three times as much money as we were 40 years ago for exactly the same outcomes.

The National Governors Association says that states are looking at $175 billion in shortfalls over the next two years. Local governments are in the red too. As legislators look for places to cut or reduce spending, there's no question that public school teachers have a lot to lose in terms of compensation.

And there's no question that, even if there were no budget emergencies, the nation's public school system is failing to return much of anything on an ever-growing pile of tax dollars.

"To Surly, With Love" was written and produced by Nick Gillespie and Meredith Bragg. Go toReason.tv for downloadable versions of all our videos and subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive automatic notification when new material goes live.

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  • ||

    Teachers unions trapping poor kids in substandard schools is shameful, but trapping middle class kids in mediocre schools is ridiculous!

    In an era when everybody seems to be so obsessed with doing everything "for the children", it's absurd that we've abandoned our children to the mercy of the teachers' unions for so long.

    If this data shows us anything, it's that the teachers unions have no mercy.

    This should be a litmus test for every parent--if the politician you're thinking of voting for isn't challenging your local teachers' union? Then he or she doesn't care about your children.

  • ||

    New study out, Raisinites jack off more than Liberals or Conservatives. Liberals do manage to get some hairy pussy by acting frail, weak and pretending to be sensitive (Radley Baldo). Conservatives tend to burn the pussy up and screw really hard, but have a tendency to lie to the bitch about getting married!

  • 4chan||

    "Those levels of compensation help explain why per-pupil school costs have risen substantially over the past 50 years. In 1960-61, public schools spent $2,769 per student, a figure that now totals over $10,000 in real, inflation-adjusted dollars. Among the things that threefold-plus increase in spending has purchased are more teachers per student. In 1960, the student-teacher ratio in public schools was 25.8; it's now at a historic low of 15."

    I'd still like this to be qualified. If you go to a 'core' class. Core being classified as traditionally the four required subjects to learn in the U.S. (English, History, Math, Science), you're more likely than not find that a typical and/or random class is filled with 30+ students, with some classes with more than 40 students.

    Maybe in the lower levels(Pre-K to the end of ELM) are we allowing smaller class sizes, but we compound that with larger classes sizes at the middle and high school levels.

    There is an argument that in general, we as a country have too many K-6 teachers, but not enough specialized Math/Science/History/English teachers to teach students.

  • Amakudari||

    30+? For me that number was somewhere around 20-25 tops for every class except gym. Elective classes will bring the overall figure number down, and more resources were (at least in my school system's case) spent on poorer schools. Also, consider things like teacher planning periods; teachers are certainly on the clock but aren't teaching a course (i.e. student-teacher ratio =/= class size).

    I just checked the student-teacher ratio where I went to school, and for both the high school and the system as a whole, the ratio was around 15, so I'm assuming that experience is somewhat representative.

  • Amakudari||

    Also, apparently, depending on who's doing the calculation, "teachers" might include teaching professionals like administrators, counselors, and so on. In that case it would give you a good picture of how many people are employed in education on a per-student basis, which is useful as much of the growth in education has been on administration.

  • Neu Mejican||

    If the figures for salary also include administrators, it is very likely this is a major bias in the public school salaries, which tend to have more non-classroom staff.

  • ||

    Has anyone been watching The Daily Show's "coverage" of this? Stewart has the worst arguments:

    "Public school teachers aren't being paid enough!"

    Compare their compensation to private sector teachers.

    "OK, but their are rich Wall Street people who make alot more than teachers, and we gave them lots of money!"

    A good argument against bailouts.

    "Yeah but why should we punish poor teachers when the rich have plenty of money that we could tax!"

    Public teachers are our employees, we should be able to decide how much money we pay them. The rich are not our employees. Before the government takes more money from people, it should stop giving it away for nothing in return.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Public school teachers make about $14,000 a year more in straight salary than private school teachers; when you add in benefits, the gap widens even more.

    This number keeps getting thrown around in these discussins.

    Some numbers (http://www.edreform.com/Fast_Facts/K12_Facts/):
    STUDENT-TEACHER RATIO:

    PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENT-TEACHER RATIO: 15.7:1

    Elementary: 15.6:1
    Secondary: 16.2:1
    Combined: 13.6:1
    (Digest 2009, Chapter 2, Table 63)

    PRIVATE SCHOOL STUDENT-TEACHER RATIO: 11.1:1

    Elementary: 12.1:1
    Secondary: 11.9:1
    Combined: 9.6:1
    (Private School Universe Survey 2008, Table 12)

    Using these numbers (found by Tulpa) and the quoted salaries, we can compare the per student compensation between private and public school teachers.

    Public school teachers: 3412.18 per student.
    Private school teachers: 3575.68 per student

    The larger argument regarding "more money has not resulted in better outcomes" is more sound. Of course, what we need to ask is why is this the case? Even getting public school teachers into a similar pay per student range as those teaching in private school has not helped.

    One important issue, of course, is that these numbers are aggregated across a large and diverse set of locally controlled school districts. Makes it hard to determine what they tell us.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Those are, btw, for elementary school teachers.

  • ||

    Somehow the Catholic schools -- which have similar student-teacher ratios to public schools, and comprise the majority of non-public schools -- disappeared from the analysis again. Considering they were between the public and private school figures, they must have been intentionally removed by whoever did the cutting and pasting.

  • ||

    oops, they were after. For some reason I remembered them being between. Still, did you include the Catholics in your analysis?

  • Neu Mejican||

    Tulpa...as I noted in the other thread...we don't have a way to break out the parochial school salaries. They would reduce the difference a bit. The basic message...on a per student basis, there isn't much difference.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Oh, and fuck you for once again trying to imply that I am being dishonest. Fucking piece of shit that you are.

  • Neo Peruano||

    New Mexican, willful blindness is not exactly the same as dishonesty. Salary and Benefit packages of unionized public employees are busting the state budgets everywhere -- that is the simple proof that there are too many of them and they are extremely overpaid.

  • Neu Mejican||

    No Peru,

    I agree. State workers will have to take pay cuts. What has that got to do with Reason continuing to use bad numbers to make their case? Teachers in public schools in many states are paid more than the state can afford. There is not, however, much evidence that this is because they are being paid better than private school teachers once attempts are made to adjust for important factors. Sometimes a raw average is a meaningful comparison. In this case it seems disingenuous at best. Pointing that out is not willful blindness.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Side note. There is also not much evidence that unions are responsible for these budget shortfalls. I am personally in favor of saying that public employees should not be able to strike, but I am not sure there is good evidence that unions are the source of the trouble here.

  • Ballpunch||

    There is also no evidence that I'm responsible for my house losing 30% of its value since 2006. Shit happens to everyone, even the unions. Suck it up and take your licks like the productive members of society are doing, that's what I say.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Ballpunch.

    The unions have, for the most part, sucked it up and negotiated pay and benefit cuts. The issue in WI, at least, is not about the money.

  • ||

    The issue in WI, at least, is not about the money.

    Kinda-sorta. It's about controlling the long-term legacy costs so when the state gets in the black again, the union can negotiate with the people they put into office and get the gold-plated pensions.

    Oh, and it's also for teh childrunz. That is the reason the teachers are calling in sick to protest instead of teaching them...because they care so much.

  • Neu Mejican||

    the Catholic schools -- which have similar student-teacher ratios to public schools, and comprise the majority of non-public schools

    This point is, of course, worth addressing. The way the numbers keep getting quoted, it is impossible to tell what counts as "private school teachers" as there is no range and no breakdown as to type of institution. If Tulpa's assumption is correct(I guess googling to get a figure was too hard), and assuming that working for a charity organization like a Catholic school is going to be the lowest paid group, then the catholic schools are bringing down the average of the "private schools."

    Of course, an honest discussion of the issue would recognize that comparisons of these raw salary averages are not meaningful in a debate about who is or is not "overpaid." There would need to be a more sophisticated analysis. Every time I have seen one of those done, the result is that there is not much difference between the groups.

    And talk about differences in long-term benefits...that whole eternity in heaven benefit that catholic school teachers get, beats the hell out of the eternal damnation of the public school workers serving the godless socialist state.

  • Xenocles||

    Another point about religious schools in general - and Catholic schools in particular - is that many of their teachers could be clergy, who one might assume are often paid much less. The Catholic high school I went to was run by an order of brothers who also made up a small but nontrivial portion of the faculty and staff. They lived together in a dormitory on campus; I can only imagine they and others like them drive the salary stats way down.

  • ||

    Tulpa that comparison would only make sense if teachers were actually paid according to the number of students they teach, but they aren't. They're paid to teach well.

  • ||

    *Neu Mejican

  • Neu Mejican||

    heller,

    Class size is, however, the best metric of their work load.

  • ||

    Present an argument for this claim, please.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Work load argument.
    Item, homework.
    Each piece of homework is reviewed for accuracy. If each item takes, say 5 minutes, you just multiply by the number of students, and ...amazing, it takes more time with more students.

    Now do that for each individualized, student specific task that a teacher does (meet with/communicate with parents, answer student questions, tutoring after school, etc...). Pretty basic stuff.

    As SF notes, below, the increased workload differences are not a big deal until the differences are pretty big and achievement effects are greater below 15. Age of students and (even) subject makes a big difference too.

  • SF||

    Class size is not much of a factor until you get to the extremes. I had 24-30 each of my 15 years, and there was no significant difference in my workload. You have to get pretty low (less than 15) for the research to show any positive achievement effect. On the other hand, I think I could have handled 35 without too much stress. This is in a nice suburban district, for what it's worth.

    Parents don't like to see class sizes that big because they think their kid won't get any attention. Maybe that's important in first grade, but by the time I got them (5th grade), our business was teaching and learning. No hand holding beyond simply being polite.

  • a||

    Technically,they're being paid to teach, period.

    Also, defining 'well' is going to differ from person to person, and deciding who should get paid more or less (merit pay), a system that actually works needs to be put in place to do it.

  • Amakudari||

    Average cost =/= marginal cost

    You should expect people to be less willing to pay for a larger class size, both because of the economies of scale and the reduced personal attention. You have the added dynamic that you pay for public school whether you use it or lot. Those factors come before adjusting for the actual value you get.

    And then there's the question of how benefits are factored into the accounting, and no analysis of compensation is complete without valuing them fairly.

  • kellymo||

    Not seeing how the public/private teacher salary comparison means much.

    Private teachers' salary, benefits, and retirement fund is covered by tuition paid by the parents - it's their choice to pay it and the teacher's choice to accept it. The Catholic school down the street could be paying their teachers 3x or half the going rate at the neighborhood public school for all it matters to me, the taxpayer, or the state & local budget.

    To keep in context with the WI issue, wouldn't a better comparison be between unionized/non-union public school districts and their student performance, salary & benefits packages, lined up with the state of the local govt's finances?

  • Neu Mejican||

    To keep in context with the WI issue, wouldn't a better comparison be between unionized/non-union public school districts and their student performance, salary & benefits packages, lined up with the state of the local govt's finances?

    That would be the better comparison. Where I have seen attempts at that, however, it doesn't come out in favor of either position. This is usually done at a whole state level. Widely cited is the fact that 8 states without collective bargaining with state employees are in worse straits than WI. Or the fact that Nevada has the largest budget shortfall...yadda yadda.

    Reason uses the meaningless raw average comparison because it fits with their narrative. If they repeat it enough times they hope that people will take it as an important number. It isn't.

  • ||

    wow my wife teaches at a catholic school. her class size 21. her salary $31,000. her experience 16 years.

    i do not know the class size in the public school down the street however i do know the salary range start $36,000 average $58,000 top pay $73,00. source the annual town report. you see in some new england towns we still feel the public should be fully informed about their tax dollars.

  • ||

    I see now that Michael Moore is in WI to rally the protesters. And thank God for that.

  • 4chan||

    I did see that Walker kept on repeating he was going to lay off 1500 workers. That was going to happen anyway since his budget for the state is smaller by $1 billion. That 1500 was going to get laid off one way or another.

    If you feel that government is too large anyway, you would probably welcome any reduction, including apprently by protest, by following Scott Walker's logic.

  • MNG||

    This kind of thing demonstrates why it is so hard, and therefore fated to always be less than obvious, to show that teachers make more than their 'counterparts.' First, it is difficult to compare them to 'other professionals' as it would be the same if you picked any one group of professionals and compared them to all of them. Second, if you compare them to private school teachers you find that the latter have things like smaller classes, better 'selected' kids/parents to put up with, and other important differences that may warrant better compensation (for example private school teachers are'nt the center of public outrage having their salaries publicized...).

    Most of this comes down to the reality that many pension funds and state coffers are in terrible shape, all government workers need to realize they must take a hit. Attacking collective bargaining per se, or selecting only some parts of the public workforce to take the hits as Walker is doing is misdirected and immoral, but the workers resisting cuts is stupid.

  • Crappy Public Schuul Teashur||

    Second, if you compare them to private school teachers you find that the latter have things like smaller classes, better 'selected' kids/parents to put up with, and other important differences that may warrant better compensation

    Fuck Yeah,

    It's all the kid's fault.

    You don't wanna baby sit these assholes like I do.

    But I do it for the kids, not the money. That's why I need more money and less of these shits in my classroom.

  • ||

    Are you kidding? How dare you call teachers "professionals." To be a professional you must have a "professional" degree and a so-called "education" degree is NOT a legitimate academic degree. Teachers are, in effect, degree-less (unless, of course, they actually have a B.A. in a legitimate academic discipline, such as math or history).

  • ||

    In NYS you can't teach K-12 with a bachelor's in education; you have to major in an actual subject that's taught in K-12 schools. While the NYS education system is messy in other ways, that always struck me as a sensible requirement.

  • MNG||

    "a so-called "education" degree is NOT a legitimate academic degree"

    Wow. I can actually correctly respond with "sez you" for once.

  • ||

    That's right, pal, says me. Courses in bulletin-board design are NOT legitimate academic subjects.

  • ||

    They sure are!

  • Almanian||

    I am so fucking tired of this shit that I've just given up arguing with people about it. My son has two more years, then off to college. And I will NEVER think of K-12 again.

    My wife's taught in both public and private schools for 20+ years. From her (and my) experience, the vast, vast majority of the issues with public schools are caused by the administrators, bureaucrats, and the politicians. The teachers are the tail, and they don't wag the dog.

    That's not to say that their comp doesn't need to be adjusted, b/c it's pretty clear to me that it does.

    But the "isseus", at their roots, are driven by the admins, bureautools and politifucks. That's where you wanna focus attention.

  • Almanian||

    And private schools? Like a calm oasis of rationality and function admidst a storm of stupid swirling around the public schools.

    The private school issues were ALWAYS those of any business - ensuring enough customers paying enough money to keep the bidness running.

    Absolutely NO issues with quality of education, discipline, bureaucracy, etc that cause ALL OF THE ISSUES we continually experience with public schools. Private schools just did what we asked of them, no drama.

    Amazing...

  • ||

    I've known teachers who work in private schools willingly despite the pay gap. This suggests to me that public school teachers are paid more because their jobs suck more. Private school students have parents who care enough to pay good money to send their kid to school, so they're already pre-selected to be better behaving. Then there's the fact that it's a lot easier to expel a kid from a private school than it is to expel him from a public school district. Also, the private school teacher doesn't have to "teach to the test" and put up with all the red-tape B.S.

  • Almanian||

    Administrators, bureaucrats, and the politicians, as noted above. My wife LOVED teaching at the pvt schools - made 1/2 as much. But no bureaucratic bullshit.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    I think I've said this before, here. In NJ, a HS English teacher with 2 years experience makes about $35,000 and teaches 6 classes. A HS English teacher with 20 years experience makes about $85,000 and teaches 1 class. Pension is 80% of the final salary earned and vests at 20 or 25 years, IIRC, which is guaranteed for life, along with healthcare.

    So, if a teacher retires at 62, with an $85,000 salary, and lives for 20 years, that teacher will get $1.36 million dollars in pension.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

  • Neu Mejican||

    In NJ, a HS English teacher with 2 years experience makes about $35,000 and teaches 6 classes. A HS English teacher with 20 years experience makes about $85,000 and teaches 1 class.

    This doesn't seem to be a credible claim. While there may be A teacher somewhere who has an arrangement like this (perhaps teaching one class and doing administrative duties the rest of the day), this is not the general case, I am confident.

  • David Letterman||

    Yeah, I don't like those numbers, so they must be wrong.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    It's a matter of public record. Here's the results for History teacher in Audubon, NJ. All only teach 1 class. The first number is years experience, the second is salary and the third is classes taught. You may be "confident, but you are wrong. Perhaps you'd like to come over for a game of poker?

    Details CAMDEN AUDUBON Audubon H.S. BULSKIS AMY M Bachelors
    9
    $54,000 Social Studies History
    1
    Map

    Details CAMDEN AUDUBON Audubon H.S. WEBB MATTHEW Bachelors
    10
    $55,300 Social Studies History
    1
    Map

    Details CAMDEN AUDUBON Audubon H.S. FRANCIS GREGG Masters
    32
    $86,900 Social Studies History
    1
    Map

    Details CAMDEN AUDUBON Audubon H.S. COLLAZZO LUKE E Bachelors
    12
    $57,400 Social Studies History
    1
    Map

    Details CAMDEN AUDUBON Audubon H.S. CLEMENTS KEVIN Masters
    18
    $67,900 Social Studies History
    1

  • ||

    Neu Mejican will return shortly to show you are a contemptible liar who completely misunderstood what he said.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    I think it's pretty cool that you can look up all of the teachers, by name, and see how much they make, how much experience they have, and their degree.

  • Neu Mejican||

    I agree...although I am having a hard time finding the original source for these numbers which would give a better sense of what they mean. The "salary" range, for instance, for English, Non-secondary goes from 6k to over 110k...but both the lowest and the highest are listed as full-time employees. Without knowing the details of how these numbers are complied, the AAP chart is less than ideal.

    Just to clarify, again, the number I questioned was not the salaries, but the "classes taught." I have worked in a lot of schools and districts and I have never seen a full-time HS teacher with only one class a day unless they taught a self-contained special education class...and it would be odd for such a teacher to be listed as "English teacher."

  • Neu Mejican||

    Fuck off Tulpa.
    I was not calling anyone a liar.
    Your inability to have an adult conversation is pathetic.

    Mr. Whipple,
    I still doubt the claim. I am looking at the chart and can't find any information on what "classes taught" means. Could be a code. Could be number of classes "prepped" (meaning 6 periods a day of American Lit, for instance). It doesn't seem to mean "I teach one period a day" as all of those with "1" are listed as having a full-time FTE. Do you have access to the details?

  • Neu Mejican||

    Still more confusing are "elementary school" teachers listed as teaching 8 classes a day. Gives me further doubt as to what that number means. I am still confident it doesn't refer to teaching "load" but to something else.

  • ||

    I was not calling anyone a liar.

    Really?

    Neu Mejican|3.6.11 @ 1:31PM|#
    Reason uses the meaningless raw average comparison because it fits with their narrative. If they repeat it enough times they hope that people will take it as an important number. It isn't.

    Neu Mejican|3.6.11 @ 10:06AM|#
    This doesn't seem to be a credible claim. While there may be A teacher somewhere who has an arrangement like this (perhaps teaching one class and doing administrative duties the rest of the day), this is not the general case, I am confident.

    You didn't use the term "liar", but the meaning is precisely that.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Tulpa.
    You are incorrect.
    I believe that Mr. Whipple believes the information he conveyed. I don't think he is a liar. I think he is misinformed. Based on looking at the source of the information...I still doubt the veracity of the claim that "A HS English teacher with 20 years experience makes about $85,000 and teaches 1 class." But we've already been over the reason for my concern with the claim.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Tulpa: Note the time stamps.

    Neu Mejican|3.6.11 @ 12:30PM|#

    Fuck off Tulpa.
    I was not calling anyone a liar.

    Why did you intentionally leave off the time stamp on the first quote? I assume it is because you realized it was prior to the time stamp on the "Reason" quote. Why are you so dishonest in the way you discuss things here on H&R? Is it just impossible for you to have an honest discussion with someone?

    I will note, of course, that Reason is not lying with their numbers. The number they quote is (essentially) accurate. It is just not an important number. It is being used as a rhetorical device to persuade people.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    I know I, for one, would like to know what they are doing during the other 7 periods.

  • Neu Mejican||

    My best guess is teaching classes. I now wonder if the way the information is arranged refers to "English classes taught." If that teacher also teaches a science course, or some other subject, they could perhaps show up under multiple categories. The "details" page, however, seems to indicate FTE and none of the high salaries seems to go towards any of those with low numbers of classes taught.

    Another possibility: Where I work currently, my salary is listed based on a full FTE (1.0). But what I take home is based on my FTE. Maybe that teacher is teaching one class (FTE of 0.125) and takes home around 11k.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    OK. I was off by $5,000. Here's my town HS English teachers. Wow, so many that must have administrative duties: Wow, one poor schmuck actually has 8 classes. And actually, I was wrong about the low salary end. A 1 year teacher makes $52,000. Fuck me.

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School BOUCHER DIANNE Masters
    35
    $81,500 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School MCGEE GENEVIEV M Masters
    20
    $81,500 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School ARMATO JEANNE W Bachelors
    20
    $80,000 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School SCHNEIDER CHRISTIN M Bachelors
    32
    $80,000 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School GORDILLO HILDA Bachelors
    32
    $80,000 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School LERA LYNNE M Bachelors
    28
    $80,000 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School HOGANSON LISA D Masters
    16
    $76,272 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CIY Vineland High School HOFF ROBERT M Masters
    14
    $69,394 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School CURCURU JENNIFER Bachelors
    14
    $67,894 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School LUISI REGINA M Bachelors
    14
    $67,894 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School BALTER-THOMPS JOANNA Masters
    13
    $66,198 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School SCHWELLER CATHERIN A Masters
    13
    $66,198 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School BOONE DARLENE Bachelors
    12
    $61,410 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School LOBIONDO JAN L Bachelors
    12
    $61,410 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School IMPERATO ROBERT R Bachelors
    11
    $59,225 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School TERRY SAMANTHA D Bachelors
    11
    $59,225 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School AMORELLI JOSEPH B Bachelors
    11
    $59,225 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School OLSEN LISA J Bachelors
    11
    $59,225 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School MUNSICK AMY L Bachelors
    11
    $59,225 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School BELVETT JENNIFER A Bachelors
    10
    $56,936 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School PERRY REYNALD A Masters
    8
    $55,677 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School PANICHELLA NOELLE M Masters
    8
    $55,677 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School PLA JORDAN S Bachelors
    7
    $55,334 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School D'ARPINO JAMES Bachelors
    9
    $55,047 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School RIVERA BECKY A Bachelors
    9
    $55,047 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School REYNOLDS NATALIE J Bachelors
    9
    $55,047 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School CRIMI JENNIFER J Bachelors
    9
    $55,047 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School LAPSLEY JAMES J Masters
    5
    $54,834 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School LEWIS CHRISTIN E Bachelors
    8
    $54,177 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School RASMUSSEN VANESSA R Masters
    2
    $54,084 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School MOHAN CHRISTOP R Bachelors
    6
    $53,584 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School ARDITO AMY C Bachelors
    6
    $53,584 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School NELSON PATRICIA M Bachelors
    5
    $53,334 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School BERTONAZZI SANDI M Bachelors
    4
    $53,084 English Non-Elementary
    2
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School WRIGHT TONYA M Bachelors
    4
    $53,084 English Non-Elementary
    1
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School RASMUSSEN JEREMY J Bachelors
    1
    $52,334 English Non-Elementary
    8
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School GONZALEZ ALEXANDE P Bachelors
    0
    $52,084 English Non-Elementary
    7
    Map

    Details CUMBERLAND VINELAND CITY Vineland High School SCHNEIDER MICHAEL P Bachelors
    1
    $52,084 English Non-Elementary
    7
    Map

  • ||

    Look, Mr. Whipple, unless you can provide copies of pay stubs for each of those teachers AND a copy of their daily schedule then...well, we don't have to believe you.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    My cousin is a teacher's aid. Perhaps she could be some help. I'll ask her to hack into the school system mainframe. Would that be acceptable?

  • ||

    Actually I would take your original link for it. NM, on the other hand, may want to be there when your cousin does the hacking.

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    sage, I knew you were just kidding at NM's expense.

  • Neo Peruano||

    New Mexican is from another orbiting planet -- divorced from reality.

  • ||

    Of course teachers in the government system are overpaid as evidenced by one major point: They don't have legitimate university degrees. Those teachers who only have an "education" degree have NO legitimate degree at all. They might as well pull the first ten people off the street to teach. Chances are very good they would get better teachers that way.

  • toddb||

    I wish that there was a way to isolate the "education" only component of that $10K per child number. Schools have been turned into little welfare programs...3 squares a day, health services, after school babysitting programs, etc. How much of that $10K is spent on those kinds of things as opposed to educating kids? Mission creep has a lot to do with the crazy money being spent.

    In regard to the student/teacher ratio question, you have to take into consideration things that exist now that didn't in the 1960's. For example, in my kid's middle school there are numerous special education classes that may have 5 or 6 students per teacher (and many with an additional aide). My kids were in classes of typically 25-30 students. The school reports a 21:1 ratio, but you will not see that number in any regular class.

  • ||

    The following video demonstrates that the very concept of "public schools" is a misnomer. They are government schools.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQDpevT724

  • Tony||

    So $50,000 is an exorbitant salary to you guys? Is your estimation of this stuck in the same decade as Gillespie's wardrobe?

    This is fun.

  • ||

    Not really, but being able to retire at age 50 and still collect pretty darn close to that same amount - whether the state can afford to pay it or not - seems rather exorbitant.

  • ||

    Given what they're delivering, $50,000 is way too much!

  • ||

    For nine months of work, with no consequences for failure to perform, in a job where there are a glut of people seeking employment? Yes, yes it does.

  • SF||

    After 15 years of teaching in the public schools (quit in 2000), I was making $55K and my handicap was a 2. The lifestyle was great, and I never felt underpaid.

    To get there, I never broke a sweat, either to get the BA or MA. I was often embarrassed by how dim some of my colleagues were -- when you can't correct math papers without the answer key, it's sad. In the end, that embarrassment helped drive me to the private sector. Along with being bored silly.

    Now I write software and have no hope of retiring and my handicap is a 6 (on a good day). Maybe my dim-witted former colleagues are a lot smarter than I am.

  • ||

    So it makes sense that we are paying our teachers tens of thousands more than other teachers, for the same job? Maybe to someone like you who gets a hard on when they do their income tax, but not to people who want to keep their own money. You should also note that no one here supported the Wall Street bailouts either.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    So $50,000 is an exorbitant salary to you guys? Is your estimation of this stuck in the same decade as Gillespie's wardrobe?

    It certainly belies the leftist trope that public school teachers are underpaid. That figure is just their gross salary, BTW--it doesn't include their benefits. $50K plus another $25K or so for an 8-year professional isn't living large, but it's nowhere near poverty wages.

  • ||

    3 years of college right out the gate? 52k sounds like bank to a lot of people. So, maybe 21,22 working 3/4 of the year making that kinda scratch? Yeah, not that bad of a gig.

  • ||

    Teachers should be compensated by how well their students do as a whole. Period.

    www.total-privacy.ie.tc

  • ||

    Seriously? I had to make four attempts to get a one-line comment with no links past the spam filter this morning (apparently it didn't like the adjective describing someone from the country north of the US), yet anon-bot is able to post the same link every flerking day?

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    He's got an agreement.

  • numeromancer||

  • Mr Whipple©®™||

    Bankers, huh? I wonder how much the tellers at my local bank make. More, or less than teachers? Hmmm

    http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWi.....nd-NJ.aspx

  • ||

    Jon's argument: See we gave out money to these people that didn't deserve it, so we should do the same for teachers! This is the liberal mindset: More spending always! Hand the bill off to the rich!

  • sevo||

    Tony|3.6.11 @ 1:23PM|#
    "So $50,000 is an exorbitant salary to you guys?"

    Simple way to find out and not to "you guys".
    Cut the pay and bene's 25%, see how many sill apply.
    Still standing in line? Another 25%, try again.
    The market will tell.

  • ||

    Abolish the "ed" schools, NOW!

    That's the only meaningful reform.

  • ||

    I confronted my ex-wife this weekend about my desire to send our kids to private school. When she said she would not pay for part of it, I offered to pay it all. She refused because, "it wouldn't be fair to her (current) husband's kids since they would still have to go to public school."

    Fortunately this conversation happened on the phone, otherwise I'd be sitting in an 8x8 pondering my future.

    *she is the wife of a Dept of the Navy civilian employee who got his stomach staple surgery done compliments of the US taxpayer...twice.

  • rather||

    *she is the wife of a Dept of the Navy civilian employee who got his stomach staple surgery done compliments of the US taxpayer...twice

    And how does that make you look better?

  • ||

    I'm not saying it does, rectal. It just shows that she's obviously willing to accept mediocrity for herself...why should I be surprised when she forces her two children to suffer so her three step children don't feel cheated?

    Anyone who lives with a government teat in their mouth for so long feels like nobody else should have better than the mediocrity they have to suffer...even if they are willing to pay extra for it.

    And as far as me "looking better," all I need to do is look in the mirror. I did a half-ironman last year and will do a full ironman (Silverman) this year. I coach my son's track team and help with my daughter's water polo team...and have a productive job in the real world. At the same time, either one of them would be lucky to make it to th end of the block without keeling over.

  • rather||

    I didn't mean physically

  • ||

    Then say what you mean, rectal. I took your statement to actually mean what it stated.

    For instance, I could say "Rectal looks like a half-baked idiot more often than not and rarely, if ever, makes a cogent point," but that would be incorrect. The accurate statement would be, "rectal is a half-baked idiot..." Looks are about physical appearance.

    Fucking English. How does it work?

    (BTW, I will not be replying to any other posts from you on this thread tonight. Spending even one more moment discussing anything other that your (hopefully impending) suicide interests me about as much as having teeth pulled.

    I wish you would just go away. We've already got Tony, Chad, minge, Max and anon-bot. You are not even comic relief. You are a boil on the ass of H&R.

  • rather||

    And that is probably why she left, and took your children with her. She chose someone else, not for his obvious physical flaws but for his kindness perhaps? Something in that you failed to give her, and it was worth the pain she cause her children to show them the difference between a man and and a father. That is what I meant

  • ||

    I actually feel compelled to respond.

    I left her, you worthless turd. She was a miserable, lazy and joyless human being after our second kid was born. We got shared custody and it remained that way until her current husband moved across the country and the judge granted her the right to move them because they had a "stable home life," and I had not remarried. I moved 2500 miles and left a great career to start a new one just so I could be near my kids and be their father.

    Their step-dad is a self-absorbed idiot who has three kids who are constantly in trouble at school and who are maladjusted (to be generous). My kids are both exceptionally bright, active and competitive. They will be living with me as soon as the courts recognize their rights as persons and allow them to live with who they want to live with.

    Sorry, rectal, but you know nothing.

  • rather||

    Yet, she seems to have a new life with a husband, and your kids, and by your own acknowledgement, you have not.

    I don't think I'm missing anything here but you may be in for a surprise. Your kids may not jump ship as fast as you plan, and telling you that they would is an effort to keep the peace.

    Why would they want to live with a resentful man? Their mother already showed them how not to.

  • ||

    BWAHAHAHA. I guess I just have faith in them. You see, they spend 3 nights a week with me now. They asked the judge at our last hearing if they could stay with me more. But you know their thoughts better than they do, right?

    Haha. Resentful? Not me.

    And as far as a new life...do you really think one needs to be remarried to have a new life? Wow. You know even less than I thought. Of course, you're a bitter, unwanted woman who has shown to have some serious issues with men already. Your opinion is suspect at best, so I'll just ignore it.

    Now, if you'll just fuck off, the grown-ups can continue.

  • rather||

    The power of guilt, and the comfort of appeasement is a bitter lesson.

  • ICGAMBLERS||

    ...to learn when once you recognize your penis envy?

    FTFY

  • rather||

    Have you ever had an orgasm from a thought? LOL, I would never give up my body for that of a male.

    Your dicks rule your mind, and our brain rules out our sexuality-no comparison.

    Men invented bestiality because of the defalcation of their penis. Woman don't even need a dildo; our fingers do an excellent job.

    Penis envy? I'd prefer two vaginas!

  • rather retarded||

    Men need animals to jack off because they can't do it with their hands. HERP DERP.

  • rather||

    Good morning helle :-)

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Why would they want to live with a resentful man? Their mother already showed them how not to.

    Or, it could be that as self-centered toads, she and her new husband are perfect for each other.

  • rather||

    self-centered toads, why? He said I left her, you worthless turd

    She obviously wasn't happy with him, and I think we can all read why.
    How can she be self-centered for choosing to go on with her life?

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