TV Viewing Tip
If you have access, tune into Al-Jazeera right now. Egypt is on fire.
Nearly a decade ago (Jesus!) Michael Young pointed out why American attempts to censor Al-Jazeera were dumb.
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I would prefer that Mubarak were on fire and that Egyptians were safe.
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+1
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http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Watch Al Jazeera English live online.
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NDP headquarters on fire.
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nooooooooooooooooooooooo
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I lol'd
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Damn! Destroying evidence!!
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I thought this thread was about Egypt.
Don't tell me the Canadians are revolting too.
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All the Canadians I've ever known are revolting...extremely so.
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+1
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That's the comeback I setup for. :)
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6:18 pm - Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, reporting from Suez, says he has witnessed five "army tanks" enter the area.
6:21 pm - Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin, in Cairo, says he can smell smoke from a fire wafting into the bureau. The fire is reportedly occurring at the headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party. The senior leadership of the party, including president Hosni Mubarak's son, Gamal, was just at the building yesterday for a party gathering. We've been talking a lot about how these protests are "unprecedented," but this is something that has never happened before.
Well, shit.
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Shit is right. Can't wait for the footage of iconic M-1 Abrams tanks running over people in the streets.
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There was already video of a SWAT-type van swerving all through a crowd running over people.
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The people seem to prefer the Army over the police. They're cheering them.
Three army vehicles carrying dozens of soldiers drove down Qasr al-Nil Bridge early Friday evening. They were seen heading toward the headquarters of Egyptian State TV on Corniche al-Nil. The area also houses the ruling National Democratic Party headquarters and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
The Egyptian Army were previously twice deployed in Cairo in 1977 during bread riots and in 1986 to quell police riots. During the last six decades, the army has never fired on Egyptian civilians. -
Hopefully not a military takeover.
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Listening right now to an attempt to explain this phenomenon of why the people are cheering the Military.
The explanation comes down as thus: The army don't have daily interactions with the people and are not seen to have the arrogance that the police have.
However, at the "end of the day", no one knows if the Army will eventually put down this protest.
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Shit, I prefer the Army over the police.
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You know they could use that Mexican pot catapult right about now to mellow out those mobs.
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You think all that smoke is tear gas?
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Northern Africa can still be considered the Middle East, right?
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Egypt is on fire.
That Jewish God is really sadistic, isn't he?
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Next up: Locusts.
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I thought Mubarak and his crew were the Plague of Locusts.
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The grasshopper lies heavy.
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I wonder if any Nazis get their throats slashed from a bathroom razor in this version.
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Al-Jazeera's Cairo offices have been raided by the police. They're being told to stop broadcasting images of the protests.
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I anxiously await Hillary Clinton's analysis of the situation.
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LOL
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So far, the administration has handled this as badly as they possibly can without actually sending in the US army in to help Mubarak shoot down and beat protesters. i too wonder what her mouth can accomplish or make worse at this point.
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Hopefully, the support of people in the U.S. will offset some of the stupidity of our government. These bozos could've held some cards in reserve without totally pooh-poohing the revolt.
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Once again, the Wikileaks cables actually make the US look better than the official statements of US officials. The cables contain all the complaints of US diplomats about Mubarak's insistence on oppression-- our public statements are all about how he's an ally, etc.
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[on the red phone]
God damn you Hosni! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Palestine? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Palestine? What the fuck are you talking about?
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You haven't been paying attention. The Administration is hardly rallying behind Mubarek.
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Um, yeah, they pretty much are. Have you read some of the public statements?
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Hillary Clinton: "We are deeply concerned about the use of violence by Egyptian police and security forces against protesters and we call on the Egyptian government to do everything in its power to restrain the security forces...we support the universal human rights of the Egyptian people, including the right to freedom of expression, of association, and of assembly...We urge the Egyptian authorities to allow peaceful protests and to reverse the unprecedented steps it has taken to cut off communications. These protests underscore that there are deep grievances within Egyptian society and the Egyptian government needs to understand that violence will not make these grievances go away...As President Obama said yesterday, reform is absolutely critical to the well-being of Egypt. Egypt has long been an important partner of the United States on a range of regional issues...the Egyptian government needs to engage immediately with the Egyptian people in implementing needed economic, political, and social reforms."
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Dictator? Dictator? What are you talking about? You'll never find a cleaner, more well spoken A-rab outside of a 7-11.
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I do feel for the State Department, for the last 20+ year Egypt has been touted as a stalwart ally of the US and now this happens.
This statement is more or less what I think would come out of Foggy Bottom regardless of who is wearing the pants-suit. They are staying pretty neutral, which from realpolitik point of view, makes sense if they want to be friendly with an NDP or opposition lead government.
I just hope the Egyptian version of the Taliban does not spring up on the Suez.
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I do feel for the State Department, for the last 20+ year Egypt has been touted as a stalwart ally of the US and now this happens.
Again, re: my question above, unless there's something the U.S. administration knows about these protesters, why would these protests signal an end to normalized relations with Egypt? It's not like the Philippines became an enemy state after Marcos got thrown out.
Unless this is another Iran-like revolution with left intellectuals providing the public face of reform while the Muslim Student's Union provides the muscle, and the eventual Islamist dictatorship, I just don't see regime change in Egypt as a problem.
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Maybe she'll just trip over her words.
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Y'all just got your wish.
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Man can she speak any slow er
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[Hillary shows Obama the riot video ]
Mubarak: [on video] communications will be restored soon.
Hillary: Lord. You can imagine where it goes from here.
Obama: He fixes the cable?
Hillary: Don't be fatuous, Barry. -
Palmjammin?
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So would you call the rioters urban achievers?
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"We are deeply concerned about the use of violence by Egyptian police and security forces against protesters," Clinton said at the State Department, adding that the protesters also should avoid violence.
A few months back, though, Hillary said, "I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family."
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I guess nobody bothers to pretend the Statue of Liberty is a meaningful symbol, anymore.
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Just the millions upon millions of people who want to immigrate to the U.S.
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My Daddy crawled out of a mine in Wales, looked to the West and saw our Lady of Liberty statue. If that Lady of Liberty had not been there, I might be in that mine. You follow me?
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Please, dear God, don't let the Muslim Brotherhood animals take over the country.
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One of their agendas is knocking down the pyramids and using the stones for landfill. Pyramids are symbols of the heathen past.
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Also symbols of and monuments to hubris, tyranny, and slavery. Fuck the pyramids. Fucks the pharaohs.
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Bwaa-ha-ha!
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I hope this works out. Too many times things like this either get brutally suppressed or end up getting co-opted by new tyrants.
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From my favorite author:
No people in the world ever did achieve their freedom by goody-goody talk and moral suasion: it being immutable law that all revolutions that will succeed must being in blood, whatever may answer afterward.
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Gandhi?
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Twain
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We're going to find out, aren't we?
At least they have a chance. Hopefully they make the best of it.
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I agree with Warty. Sitting around and doing nothing is worse. Oppression only works when people don't fight against it.
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Again from Mark Twain.
I am said to be a revolutionist in my sympathies, by birth, by breeding and by principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionists, because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolute.
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+++ to Twain for "revolute"
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Love that Twain!
I think our government could take some lessons from him. While I can understand feeling comfy with the current regime because it has cooperated with us, those people aren't in the streets because they're being treated well.
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Time to take Hosni down to see the Amontillado.
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I think that was EA Poe's story.
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It's a consistent call to let 19th century authors guide your actions.
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I would prefer that Mubarak were on fire and that Egyptians were
safefree.I couldn't resist.
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Definite improvement.
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Look! They're winning the future!
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I suspect this will be brutally suppressed, with the full support and cooperation of the United States government.
We're EXCEPTIONAL. Suck on that, world!
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While I can understand a little realpolitik now and again, it would be nice if we could also cheer on fights against oppression and general liberalization a little more often. Even when it's against our interest to do so.
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Or we someday realize that giving material support to brutal dictators to help protect us from terrorists (SCARY!) only helps to persuade people to join extremest causes.
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So far, the comments from Obama, Biden, and Clinton -- the Three Stooges of Geopolitics -- has boiled down to: "Mubarak's not so bad. We don't like violence. Freedom is good, but hey, that's just our opinion."
I'm paraphrasing, but not much.
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Hey, it's the New Civility.
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I saw a quote from Biden that pretty much supports your thesis.
There are ways of playing it safe that aren't quite so pathetic. Like saying that our "buddy" Mubarak should take this seriously and institute some major reforms. We're here to help.
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"That rug really tied the room together."
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We should be packing our bags from Cairo, pointing to our watch about how it's time to go. Sorry, we'd love to help, but we're really late for our flight.
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That or claim our rightful place as the successor to the Roman Empire.
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Quo Vadis?
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Where is gaius marius?
Or was he your sock puppet the whole time?
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Nah, he just left us. He's still running his blog, last I heard.
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Obama: "The United States and Egypt have worked together closely for many years, and for many of those years President Mubarak has been a leader and a counselor and a friend to the United States."
Biden: "Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things and he's been very responsible ... I would not refer to him as a dictator."
Clinton: "I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family."
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And it seems to me that it is in our interest to support them. Win or lose, there are 80 million people who are not going to forget whose side we're on.
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Well, we had a foreign policy debate about that, and the side you're cheering lost in 2005-06. The bipartisan foreign policy establishment shut down the nascent efforts to cheer on and fund a bit Mubarak's opposition because of realpolitik concerns about our interests.
The "realists" who favor that swung heavily toward the Democrats and Obama, and we've gotten exactly the expected foreign policy.
Of course, libertarians can complain about why there is no "middle ground" option between sucking up to dictators and starting war, why we can't just cheer on from the sidelines.
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The side I'm cheering hasn't existed since before WWII.
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A certain Senator from Ohio by the name of Bob? The modern GOP doesn't like to reminded of anything that smacks of principle, nor consistency.
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What we really want to hear of course is Osama BL's perspective on the situation.
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I hope Egypt is a preview.
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Yes. It would be massively awesome if it were 1989 all over again.
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I suspect it will depend on what happens here... if the Egyptian government falls, more will come. If they suppress it successfully, then this will be the end of it.
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Poland. 1980-1981.
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Phillipines. 1986.
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Iran. 1979?
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Well, when I went to the Al-Jezeera page (~9 AM PST), below the obvious Egypt headlines were: "Thousands protest in Jordan -- Protesters gather across the country, demanding the prime minister step down."; "Ben Ali allies dropped from cabinet -- Key ministers from the heavily criticised former government replaced while interim Tunisian prime minister remains."; and further down "Eye On Algeria".
See? All we had to do was attack Iraq, and democracy would come to the Middle East.
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What's that smell? Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Syrians all shitting in their tailored western pants.
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If only.... not to mention Libya
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I don't know, Qaddafi's awfully well-versed in oppression. On the other hand, he seems to be a good choice for a Romanian-style midnight people's trial with execution following immediately a la Ceaucescu.
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Barbara Ehrenreich is at the airport, right now, hopping a flight to Egypt.
Go get 'em, Barbie! Speak Truth to power! Organize the revolutionary masses!
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I hope she remembers to take them some Glock polish. Little presents go a long way towards establishing friendship.
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We would like to point out that all of this was made possible by the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The country is now a shining symbol of the triumph of democracy emboldening the people of the Middle East to rise up against oppression.
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ROFL
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Trotskyites always wanted to be management.
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Like it or not, Condi did try to get Mubarak to democratize and truly reform.
She didn't get very far because the USG was totally distracted by Iraq. But for five years there were no meetings between Bush and Mubarak. Almost immediately after Obama ascended to his throne, he met with Mubarak and announced that the White House was favorably disposed to the Egyptian regime.
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Has anyone determined what it was that Sarah Pain said that set off the riots?
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She used crescent moons on some political chart.
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I register my support for her decision to embrace her villainy by changing her name to Sarah Pain.
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That's her porn dominatrix name.
Damn, we haven't had a sighting of RC'z Law in a while.
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We'll work that out in post production..
OK editor, I want to see some sharp cuts between burning buildings and Palin exhaling.. -
Now that I spent some time defending the protesters in Egypt, last night, I feel I should at least ask the question: What do we know about the protesters themselves? And what are the chances that we may end up with another Iran-- where the 'revolution' was trying to replace one regime with a more extreme, less secular, more oppressive one?
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Good question. Don't forget, however, that in the 1979 Iranian revolution, the Islamists were only one part. They managed to co-opt the larger movement, but Egypt, being more secular in general, has a better chance of avoiding becoming the second Islamic Republic. Also, Sunni Islam places a lower importance on religious leaders in governance--one thing that helped lead to the Islamist takeover in largely Shiite Iran.
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Thank you, db, those are the kinds of answers I'm looking for. I'm not an expert on the middle east, so I simply don't know what this protest is about, beyond that the protesters are unhappy with what is largely agreed upon to be a closed government which runs sham elections but is marginally friendly to the US because it maintains normalized relations with Israel. That's it. That's the extent of my knowledge. So as I found myself cheering protesters on youtube last night, I had to at least take a moment and ask myself what I was cheering.
What's one of RCz iron laws? The further away from something you are the bigger an expert you are?
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IIRC, there are quite a few Muslim countries that describe themselves as "Islamic Republics". The appellation is almost a convention.
But I don't think that nominal secularism is any guarantee of pluralism. Both the Syrian regime and that of Saddam Hussein were Baathist (in name).
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They're primarily young, secular protesters. The MB hasn't really been involved. They said they were going to participate in today's protests, but they've had a minimal role in this whole thing. Interestingly, Mubarak had the top 5 MB leaders arrested before today's protest.
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What is the MB?
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Muslim Brotherhood.
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The Iranian revolution was initially democratic-socialist. (I have a friend whose parents went back to help, and got stuck until the early 90s) Then the socialists decided that they preferred the anti-western theocrats to the less-anti-western liberals, and that was that. My inner conspiracy theorist suspects Moscow had a hand in that decision, but who knows.
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The Soviets may have helped, but I wouldn't be surprised is our continued support of the Shah tipped the balance.
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We need Mubarak to maintain the blockade of Gaza.
There. Now I've done it.
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And what are the chances that we may end up with another Iran
An Iran which we pretty much created?
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An Iran which we pretty much created?
Sure, yes, what are the chances we're going to end up with another Iran that "we pretty much created"?
However, I have to add that we can't have it both ways. If Egypt gets a more open sunnier government, is that "self determination" whereas if they end up with a hard line Islamist Regime is that not "self determination"?
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Well, since the nation of Egypt is not an individual which can make decisions, neither of those things is, in itself, self determination. The latter can never be as self determination is when individuals can make decisions for themselves.
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You're making a bizarre, nuanced nit-picky argument.
The concept of self-determination is 100% valid when talking about nation-states vis-a-vis international law:
Self determination is the principle in international law, that nations have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or external interference. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, be it independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation
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You are right. We are not using the words in the same way. But I like my definition better as it has more to do with what those two words actually mean. I have a problem with the idea that whole nations of people can make collective decisions.
To get back to your original question, I would say that even if the popular movement leads to a hard line Islamist regime, the self determination ends as soon as such a regime comes to power. I don't buy that a people can voluntarily enslave itself, let alone future generations.
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You can get it streaming online...
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P.S. for an online blog from a magazine called reason I can't believe you didn't leak the online streaming site...
Hillary speaking right now...
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You are hearing me speak. Blah blah blah.
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Drink!
But in solidarity with our Muslim brothers and sisters on this Friday, only tea. Sweet mint tea. Mmmm.
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That's right, FRIDAY IS RIOT DAY! What a fortunate coincidence.
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Hey, whatever happened to Baghdad Bob?
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You see? THIS is why nobody around here gets a blackberry or a MYFACE account.
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Damn, damn, damn. Why does all this shit happen when I'm at work and can't watch Al Jazeera?
(I know the answer is primarily because of the 8-hour time difference - I just want to bitch).
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Al Jazeera reporting the military is entering Alexandria and "giving thumbs up to protesters" and protesters are cheering them.
That can't be good for the guys in power...
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Now they say the military is in Suez and being cheered by the rioters.
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The Army will eventually side with whomever the US tells them to side for. One thing the $1.4B in aid buys is influence with the guys with guns.
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yeah, there seems to be a real deference granted the army by the general population.
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A-J is now reporting that in other places the protesters are resisting the movement of Army equipment.
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I just read that Fox plans to make a reality show based on the bumbling efforts of the Mexican drug smugglers. http://weeklyworldnews.com/hea.....-catapult/
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Not to make light about all this, but I really wish I could get that damn Jesus Jones song out of my head.
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Lets just embrace our inner goofy and admit that that is a good tune.
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I'm not complaining about the song per se, but rather the intensity and duration of the loop it is running in my mind.
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For some variety, how about Jimmy Cliff's "The Harder They Come?"
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Some days I help my girlfriend keep her sister's kid when her work schedule conflicts. Nothing more insidious than getting the theme song to a kid's show like Sesame Street or Barney in your head. Though that dance/cheer number from Sid the Science Guy is pretty good. First time I saw it, they were on hygiene week so I naturally assumed the show was a communist plot (ironically dirty hippies use that as an excuse for social control), but other weeks focused on real science like basic physics.
BTW, Teacher Suzie is obviously high. I don't blame her. Four kids is a bit much to deal with sober.
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I'm LOOKINFORMYFRIENDS!
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I'm lookin 'for you!
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The only way to purge your mind of an awful song is to fill it with an even awfuler song.
[EMF - Unbelievable]
You're welcome.
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OH!
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Die...
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My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult is helping me.
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This is incorrect advice.
To purge a song, you sing a song with line lengths that are longer than your brain buffer size. It pushes out the other song but cant get stuck itself. The only song I know for sure that works is All Good People by Yes. Plus, if it does get stuck, win-win.
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Take that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og1HAkjOuL0 -
And for good measure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDSK91mUNLU -
I never thought of a buffer overrun hack on my brain. Good call.
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What do I do when I get the Ode to Joy stuck in my head? Start singing Verdi operas?
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You have to use Alien Sex Fiend. You gotta fight fire with fire.
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Recall Harry Nilsson's Joy to the World:
Joy, to the world,
Was a beautiful girl,
But to me Joy meant
O-o-o-nly sorrow.If -that- gets stuck in your head, you'll be just like me.
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Great, now my brain is stuck on hourglass. Thanks for nothing.
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Mary Had a Little Lamb works every time.
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After witnessing the Sesame Street rap version, it only makes it worse, unless I consciously sing the Carlin version.
Mary had a little gram,
that shit was white as snowFuck.
M-M-M ma Mary
M-M-M ma Mary
Mary had a little LAMBFuck. It's back. I'll kill you Sesame Street!
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Cotton Eye Joe?
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From the video I see it looks like there's a break down in command for the police.
Now they are reporting people aren't sure what the military is doing.
And there's reports of police firing on people, but the reporter says they saw no one fall or be hit.
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LOL
Al Jazeera is comparing their video with that of Egyptian state TV and says the two cameras are only a few hundred meters apart. Al Jazeera shows all hell breaking loose, Egyptian TV has a wide shot that looks like a calm night.
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The state run media is quite adept at Photoshop.
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I don't think they are going to be able to photoshop this out.
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They now have video of several military vehicles rolling into Cairo with people cheering them.
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And they say the column of vehicles is headed to the ministry of foreign affairs, radio and TV, and information.
AJ saying that's where the most people were.
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Reporting no fire or EMS service has been scene. That can't be good with NDP headquarters on fire.
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Now reporting that the mummy of Ramses II has broken out of the Egyptian museum and declared itself King. A return to traditional values is promised.
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Oh thank goodness. Now for zombie Abraham Lincoln...
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You've just recited the plot of A Night at the Museum II.
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And Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
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I am your pharaoh and god.
No need to worship me.
I ask you only to kneel and obey.
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I'm a PC, and Ramses II 2.0 was my idea!
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They aren't cheering the Army, they're yelling "Allahu Akbar" at them. That's not a secular chant. This is going to be a takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood. The claim above that Sunni Islam places a low importance on religious leaders in governance? That's an outright lie, Sunni Islam requires the state be an Islamic theocracy no less than Shiite Islam does.
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I didn't hear anyone say what they were cheering.
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Just like everyone who says "God bless America" is really calling for the establishment of a Christian theocracy in the USA.
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Christians aren't Muslims. "Allahu Akbar" is a statement of Islamic supremacy. "God bless America" is not a statement of Christian supremacy.
Muslims rioting and shouting "Allahu Akbar" are in fact calling for the establishment of Islamic theocracy no less than jihadists do when they yell "Allahu Akbar" while gunning down barbers who shave men's beards.
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unsubscribe
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Cite one instance of Egyptian beard-shaving barbers being gunned down. Your problem is that you see all Islam as a monolithic boogeyman to be used to justify your troglodytic xenophobia. Egypt != Afghanistan.
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Pshaw, all of the self-proclaimed experts on the Islamic world who think they know everything say there's nothing at all to worry about and everything will turn out just great.
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Not all. Mr. Smith, above, seems to be one of those self proclaimed experts.
The important thing is that it doesn't matter what they (or you or I) think about it. The Egyptians get to try to figure it out on their own. I am interested to see what happens and I am cautiously optimistic.
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Sure they're not yelling for General Akbar?
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Now they are saying in Suez the military vehicles(4) left.
And some assholes set the local liquor store on fire, morons you can't riot sober.
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They clearly need more s'mores flavored schnapps.
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RIOT
Adrenalin shoots your nerves to the sky
RIOT
The unbeatable high
RIOT
Playing right into their hands
Tomorrow you're homeless, tonight it's a blast
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I did that from 20+ year-old memory, so I might not have gotten every word right.
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Fool! Thou hast doomed us all! When thou misspoke the words, an army of the dead awoke!
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"Alright you primative screwheads. This! Is my BOOMSTICK!"
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It's been so long since I've watched a mainstream media source that I've forgotten how statist they are. STABILITY STABILITY STABILITY
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Calm down, calm down.
Shhhhh, at ease my fellow Egyptians.
Let me sing you a tune, appropriate for this eventful occasion.
Even though we ain't got much money
I'm still in love with you honey,
Everything is going to be alright,
so long as we are tight with the US Gov,
We'll be shown the subsidy love,
just don't say shit about the Israelis,
no matter what you decide to do with me,
don't burn the US flag in effigy, then
everything will be alright. -
General, you make an interesting obeservation. The A-J live stream has yet to show the protesters burning the US flag.
I'm no flag worshipper, but that's a good thing.
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Nice touch: the tear gas canisters being used by the Egyptian state against its citizens are marked "Made in USA" by Combined Tactical Systems of Jamestown, PA.
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Buy American!
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Green jobs.
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And those canisters were produced in a solar powered factory, delivered on by a high speed train, conducted by a well educated (for free) illegal immigrant, who had smoked salmon for dinner, smoked salmon with his food stamps that are the best thing for the economy.
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smoked salmon purchased with ...
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You just gave me a hard on. Now I need to join the army so I'll have somewhere to put it.
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OMG! And security forces might be using American-made guns!
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So what? Who cares who made the guns? Besides, plenty of the moooslims have AK-47's, does that mean the AK-47 is a bad gun? No. People are good or bad, guns are just fun, fun, fun!!!!
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I'm tired of being abused by adolescents who don't know the meaning of me.
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how ironic
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Is anyone else curious about why "Gregory Smith" sounds exactly like a Reason-troll's idea of what a libertarian is?
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He's a skilled user of the non sequitur as well.
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And check out his blog. It's 100% conservative KULTUR WAR bullshit. Waaaah waaaaaah, Hollywood and the liberal media aren't being patriotic enough. WAAAAAAAAAH.
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Who says we don't export anything anymore?
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Hmmm... Thank good 'ol merican made tear gas aint what it used to be...
or..
It might be just like all that anti bacterial crap. Over use promote's resistance!
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Israel can't be happy about this
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Where is our Egyptian Chalabi?
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Stop teasin'