Reason.tv: Do Vaccines Cause Autism?

It's not surprising that so many parents are so worried about autism. After all, the disorder strikes about one out of every 115 kids, its prevalence seems to be growing, and its cause or causes remain mysterious.

A 1998 article published in the British medical journal The Lancet generated enormous impact by proposing a link between autism and childhood vaccines.  Since then, celebrity activists like Jenny McCarthy have argued that common shots like the measles, mumps, and rubellla vaccine (MMR) trigger autism. Countless media stories have covered the alleged link.

Some parents take to the streets to protest the federal government's vaccine policy and thousands more take the issue to court. Many others, like Kelly Green, who runs AutismHwy and is the mother of an autistic child, feel overwhelmed by the information flooding in from both sides of the debate. Jim Moody, of the think tank Safe Minds, blames the federal government for not being honest about the threat and failing to provide reliable information on the matter. But researchers like UC Santa Barbara's Lynn Koegel say the evidence is overwhelming that vaccines do not cause autism.

Recently, the debate took another turn when The Lancet retracted the 1998 article that did so much to spark the controversy. Will the retraction finally allay parents' worries or will some continue to resist vaccinations?

"Do Vaccines Cause Autism?" is written and produced by Ted Balaker, who also hosts. Producer: Hawk Jensen; Associate Producer: Paul Detrick; Camera: Dan Hayes, Hawk Jensen, and Alex Manning. Approximately 5.50 minutes.

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  • jtuf||

    A different diagnosis becomes trendy in every generation. In the 1980's it was Dislexia. In the 1990's it was ADD. Today, it's Autism. I don't think the actual rates of Autism are growing. I think more parents are seeking out the diagnosis, because it is in the news so much.

  • Dislexic||

    First!

  • jtuf||

    Dnoces!

  • KillTruck||

    My son puts holes in the wall with his head, we're in the process of putting bars on our windows to keep him from jumping out. I didn't seek out an autism diagnosis to be trendy.

  • Joe||

    Perhaps not in your case--it sounds like your son has a pretty severe case. But most of the increase in recent years has been in less severe portions of the autism spectrum.

    A number of factors probably are contributing to the increase. These include loss of the stigma attached to an autism diagnosis (the theory of autism's cause in the 1950's and 60's was that it was caused by uncaring "refrigerator mothers"), childre who would ahve been previously diagnosed as having mental retardation or a learning disability now being diagnosed with autism (eg http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....117/4/1028), and increasing awareness and therefore increasing vigilance among parents and healthcare professionals. There has also been a broadening of the diagnostic criteria for autism over the past decades.

    There is epidemiologic evidence that there is a sociological component to autism diagnosis. A recent study ( http://www.journals.uchicago.e.....086/651448 ) found that a child who lives within 250 meters of a child with autism is 42% more likely to be diagnosed with autism than one who does not. Of note, the proximity effect did not cross school districts, and the effect only existed for less severe portions of the autism spectrum.

  • Joe Schmoe||

    Your commentary and fact finding seem to be mis-linking “Causality” and “Correlation does not imply causation” or Casual Effect vs. Causal Effect. It reminds me of the group that did a study linking children that watch too much TV become autistic. Children that have autism often process images differently than typical children which would lend them to be fascinated with videos more so than typis. TV doesn’t cause autism, but autistics are attracted to TV.

    I think a better explanation would be a person that has a genetic precondition to adverse environmental conditions. This would rationally explain why children in geographic proximity would become autistic verses catching the “autism bug” from someone nearby.

    Environmental toxins (air, water pollutants), food choices (availability of poor quality food or contaminated food- think tuna or any large fish; food allergies – gluten and/or casein issues; etc) will affect the methalation cycle of an individual. It would also affect the development of the fetus and cause changes that would have consequences on the child post partum. Couple these issues with vaccines that still have other heavy metals and odd adjuvant s in them and you have a recipe for trouble for an individual with a compromised methalation cycle.

    Contrary to the video presented above, thimerosal (mercury) is still used in vaccines. Not ones used extensively for children necessarily, but in the vaccines that could be injected into pregnant mothers, including DT (diphtheria and tetanus), Td (tetanus and diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid). And of course the flu shot contains thimerosal, which is recommended for all pregnant mums. The list is not exhaustive, but research needs to be looked into all the other shots given to women during the birthing of their offspring, including rhogam and others.
    For further study:
    http://www.healing-arts.org/ch.....-other.htm
    http://holistichealth.com/

  • Ralph Fucetola JD||

    Actually, according to Dr. Paul G. King, one of the authors of Geier DA, King PG, Geier MR. Influenza Vaccine: Review of effectiveness of the U.S. immunization program and policy considerations, J American Physicians and Surgeons 2006 Fall; 11(3): 69-74, children receive on average more mercury now than they did a decade ago, especially considering multi-use flu vax vials.

  • ||

    From the article cited:
    "Paul King, Ph.D. is the founder of Facility Automation Management Engineering (F.A.M.E.) Systems"

    Although the article (which seems problematic at a glance based on poor study design, its use of innuendo and its use of dated sources) does say that flu vaccines contain thimerosal, it does not make conclusions about how much children currently receive than they did in the past.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Wow. Your opinions would be dangerous if anyone with half a brain was buying into your fraud & weak critique. Thank goodness our people are waking up & wise to your rhetoric & propaganda. People are finally paying attention & those commissioned to dupe them with deceptive spin are fighting a losing battle.

  • MrGuy||

    More specifically, Aspergers, a high functioning form. Not too long ago, it was the smart nerdy kid that was socially awkward... It's just another way for drug companies to sell you overpriced garbage.

  • Sniktpool||

    That would be interesting except for the fact that there are no medications for it. Medicating to treat Asperger's alone is like giving a building a new coat of paint to make it earthquake proof.

  • kimgarba||

    Autism is diagnosed by symptoms. All the symptoms are treated with psych meds.

  • Brian McDonough||

    YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!

  • kimgarba||

    Austism is a spectrum disorder, ranging from low to high function. Neurologists consider ADD to be on the very high functioning end of the spectrum. Anywhere from 1:63 to 1:150, depending of demographics, are currently classified on that spectrum. 4 of 5 on the spectrum are boys, and the lower functioning are mostly boys. You can't have a genetic epidemic in one generation, but something environmental is going on, across all socio-economic levels. Many are non-verbal and not toilet trainable, not so trendy with parents. When these children turn 18 and go onto full public medical assistance, then there will be a mournful acknowledgment of an epidemic.

  • ||

    This is some real hacky bullshit.

    No autism among Amish:

    http://www.whale.to/vaccine/olmsted.html

    Thimerosal contains 50% mercury. It's not gone from flu shots.

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBl.....096228.htm

    A recent study by
    the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has confirmed 1988 as a
    "change point" in the rise of Autism Disorder rates in the U.S. - a date
    that pro-life leaders say correlates with the introduction of fetal
    cells for use in vaccines.

    http://www.all.org/pdf/McDonaldPaul2010.pdf

    The government concedes autism case in court (check out the rest of David Kirby's articles for some really interesting stuff.)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....88323.html

    That Lancet article stood for 10+ years, then hacks like you guys started attacking it and lo and behold they retract it.

    The truth of the matter is that the heat is on them, so they start pressuring everyone who disagrees, and you guys fall for it.

    ...Then you propagate it. ...Low standards for a Reason piece. Low on facts. It just says, "Studies show," "It's been proven." Give me a break. Show us the studies, friend, if you really know what you're talking about. Get more specific.

  • ||

    The "No autism in the Amish" is a completely untrue statement. Don Olmsted has, since the publication of that article, left UPI and now works for the anti-vaccine, anti-science site Age of Autism.

    The Lancet article has been attacked for years. It should've been withdrawn in 2004 for starters, but they managed to drag it out.

    Go to Science Based Medicine, or Respectful Insolence, and read the actual science. Not like I expect you to do that.

  • ||

    Actually this is a pretty thought-provoking finding (but don't think too hard about it):

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....s-locally/

  • ||

    "The "No autism in the Amish" is a completely untrue statement."

    Link please.

    A lot of the people here who talk authoritatively offer no links.

  • ||

    "Not like I expect you to do that."

    Hey asshole, I'm the one who provided you with links. You just talked out of your ass.

  • ||

    @Anon

    Strauss, Kevin et all NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL of MEDICINE Recessive Symtomatic Focal Epilepsy and Mutant Associated Protein-like 2 N Engl J Med 2006;354:1370-7.

    There ya go!

  • ||

    Dr. Stauss and Dr. D. Holmes Norton are the authors of a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that studoes of Old Order Amish children. The authors have, " identified the genetic mutation that causes a previously unknown disorder, with seizures that progress to autism and retardation."

    The evidence all points to genetic links.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    That's bull.

    "Autism Increase Environmental Not Genetic – Says New Director of USA’s $30.5 Billion Health Research Budget"

    http://childhealthsafety.wordp.....ronmental/

    This means that toxins are to blame from many sources including, & especially, vaccinations. Not that genetics doesn't enter in but Sexy_Ignostic is definitely wrong about evidence pointing to genetics.
    Plus, we know all about those past studies & the fraud involved. Just google< "faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them", to see the facts for yourselves.

    Fact of the matter is & I know first hand because I know many in the Amish community & I took a survey, is that for the most part Amish do not vaccinate & there's no autism. Some do vaccinate & there are cases of autism so what does that evidence tell you?

  • ||

    First, Dr. Collins statement was that the increase in autism could not be due to a genetic shift. He does not say, and that does not imply that the increase is due to "toxins." Second, one person's statements, no matter their position, cannot resolve a scientific question.

    On the question of whether non-vaccinated children are autistic, Generation Rescue's survey revealed "n one striking finding, vaccinated boys 11-17 were more than twice as likely to have autism as their never-vaccinated counterparts." (see http://www.generationrescue.org/phonesurvey at Results) This clearly indicates that at least some non-vaccinated children have autism. Generation Rescue's link to raw data was down when I checked it. Brief internet research does suggest that some doctors who take care of Amish patients say they have not seen a case of autism.

  • ||

    The best argument against vaccines as a cause of autism is that blinded researchers can identify autistic children by watching home videos of them as toddlers *before* they got vaccines.

    Adrien, J., et al. Blind ratings of early symptoms of autism based upon family home movies. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 32:617-626, 1993.

    and others.

  • ||

    Children get HepB at 2 days old, 4-5 needles at 2 months, 4 at 4 months, 3-4 at 6 months. How could they be toddlers without vaccines?

  • ||

    This is some real hacky bullshit.

    Well, at least the preface to your post was accurate about its contents.

  • ||

    Quoting Whale.to is akin to claiming that a spirit guide told you.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Why is that exactly? Is it because you guys love to put down any site that tells it like it is? Yep, that's it all right. Always parroting what you're fed, aren't you? We're going to wait & see if you or any of you who are clearly duped or the shills for the pHARMs can answer this.

    Again so you understand the question. Exactly why is Whale akin to claiming that a spirit guide told us?

  • ||

    And even if the mercury WERE fully removed (a moot point, as it isn't, I know) is that Kegel (sp?) is saying that because autism rates have not gone down since mercury was, ahem, removed, then it is conclusive proof that it is not the vaccine at all? Give me a break. She is comparing apples to oranges here, and I would have thought a minimum follow up question should have been, "what about the other ingredients?" She is also creating a diversion by talking about research and funding not going to finding the "real" cause. Nice job there, OJ.

  • d||

    And guess what they added in the place of mercury?...[wait for it]...Aluminum! Another toxic metal.

    http://articles.mercola.com/si.....toxic.aspx

    But most of the mercury-laden vaccines probably sat on shelves until they were used...because they just KNEW it had nothing to do with autism anyway.

    This is typical of medical "science". Use straw man test to discredit the opposition (e.g., use crappy herbs to demonstrate that herbs have no medical benefit). Next say something about how there is "no credible evidence" supporting the opposing view that you just "tested". Then make wild generalizations based upon musings on top of speculations about your tenuous evidence concerning *your* pet theory.

    I'm not saying that vaccine cause autism, but the studies "proving" that vaccines *don't* cause autism are seriously flawed. Heard of *controlling* for variables in your experiments, anyone?

  • E3LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST||

    http://www.thinktwice.com/aluminum.pdf

    @d - absolutely correct. Reason.com has struck out with more B.S. . I'm thoroughly disappointed at Matt Balaker for not researching enough, and even more disappointed at Reason.com for allowing such mythical information slide through disguised as a fact. Aluminum is a neurotoxin too.
    What in the world is wrong with Reason staff in their defense of big pharma vaccination manufacturers??? Just because it's big business doesn't mean it's good! It's a total crime to profit at the expense of the mental health, happiness and life of people! Reason.com would be more accurate to put a big 'T' before the word Reason, hence calling it 'Treason.com'...it would make more sense. I agree on so many issues with Reason...but on this issue, for them to defend Vaccine manufacturers without acknowledging that one neurotoxin was replaced with another is nothing short of insane disacknowledgement of the truth!

  • ||

    "And even if the mercury WERE fully removed (a moot point, as it isn't, I know)"

    Flu vaccine, which still has the mercury, is not really a standard vaccine to give to one-year-olds, is it, now? So as far as causing autism goes, the mercury is gone.

    " is that Kegel (sp?) is saying that because autism rates have not gone down since mercury was, ahem, removed, then it is conclusive proof that it is not the vaccine at all?"

    Well, in short, NO. She is saying the Lancet study blamed mercury, the mercury is gone, autism did not drop, the Lancet study is wrong.

    As you would put it, "Give me a break."

  • Binky||

    It would be weird if they came up with a vaccine for autism.

  • ||

    The autism-vaccines link is pretty illistrative of the kinds off issues going on in the GMO foods debate. Overwhelming scientific evidence that there's nothing wrong with them, versus a concerted will to believe otherwise on the part of a determined opposition. You get enough people together who really, really, want to believe something, and they will basically fabricate reasons to, reinforcing eachother opinions while excluding other information as the product of a conspiracy.

    The GMO debate has the added problem of the anti-GMO side linking itself to a particular ideological worldview, which helps to strengthen the framework of rationales for rejecting the consensus science and involking conspiracies.

  • jk||

    It reminds me of the (il)logic some people use when insisting human activity is the cause of climate change.

    All this exhaust from fossil fuels must be causing something.
    The climate is changing, the climate is changing!
    Exhaust from fossil fuels must be the cause!

    OR

    All these vaccines must have some sort of side effect on children.
    Autism is growing, autism is growing!
    Vaccines must be the cause!

  • ||

    There is a big difference. There is no known mechanism for vaccines to cause autism. Even thimerosol, removed from most vaccines, is not known to have effects that can explain the onset of autism or similar disorders.

    Gases such as CO2 and Methane can be demonstrated to have warming effects. The mechanism is well established.

  • jk||

    It is also well established that some people will believe just about anything.

  • ||

    ? Vaccines stimulate the immune system, which creates an auto-immunological response in focused areas of the brain responsible for whatever is different between autistic kids and non-autistic kids.

    Mechanisms, by definition, are postulates. They can never be proven, only shown to be 'almost certain to be wrong'.

    Where you always run into trouble is the middleman. What are the steps in that black box between 'immune response' and 'brain'. (although in the case of autism there's also primary evidence against the effect in some cases)

    the same goes for global warming. Sure CO2 absorbs IR radiation and converts it to heat. But does that effect trump the effect of water? Or global land-use-changes?

  • ||

    I guess you would say that the black box is much more filled in theoretically for global warming than vaccines.

    You can't just postulate that ther'es some sort of link between the immune response and the brain, you must explain how an ammune response could damage those specific areas of the brain (and only those) responsible for autism.

  • jacob||

    Agreed, Hazel

  • jacob||

    Vaccines stimulate the immune system, which creates an auto-immunological response in focused areas of the brain responsible for whatever is different between autistic kids and non-autistic kids.

    OK, 1st - the fact that you used the word "auto-immunological" means you have no clue what you're talking about.

    Secondly, vaccines produces a systemic immune response. The CNS (that includes the brain) is shielded from almost all systemic immune processes by the blood brain barrier. There are very rare instances of a CNS immune-mediated response that does not affect the whole body (namely, multiple sclerosis), but the brains of autistic kids don't show anything remotely close to what the brains of what MS patients show (=demyelinating plaques).

  • CyclopsJack||

    Unless the blood brain barrier happens to be compromised, possibly due to oxidative stress.

  • jacob||

    Oxidative stress from what?

  • ||

    Agree. Similarly, there is no biologically plausible reason why genetic engineering would be more dangerous than cross-breeding.

    I suspect the evidence for anthropomorphic global warming has been exagerrated, but at least it fits within the overall paradigm governing what we know about the climate.

    When it comes to GMOs and autism/vaccines, there just isn't a scientificially plausible theory. Only poorly-informed speculation.

  • no gmo||

    Actually there is overwhelming evidence they cause great harm and scientific basis to support this.
    See the following:

    http://www.ethicurean.com/2009/06/03/lotter-gmopaper/

    http://vimeo.com/6575475

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Hazel, as always, you are so right on.

    People try to find evidence to fit their conclusions, not the other way around.

    Plus, one little known fact, Asperger is actually something you're born with which separates it from other disorders on the spectrum. So, are we to conclude that Asperger is caused by mom's previous vaccine usage?

    While Autism exists and diagnosis has gone up as awareness has gone up, parents are obviously looking for someone to blame. It's too bad, all that effort could be directly so much productively if we actually looked for the real culprit, even if that does simly boil down to higher awareness and subjective testing.

  • Me||

    Considering the DSM is increasing the numbers of disorders defined as autism (or autism spectrum disorder, if you will), is it even possible to compare from year to year or decade to decade the rate of change? What we now consider autism (or autistic) may have been considered something else years ago or at best undefined.

    http://autismaspergerssyndrome.....in_the_dsm

  • d||

    Children can and do get measles, mumps and rubella if not vaccinated, and sometimes with quite serious and lasting consequences. Fatalities from these diseases is not unheard of either.
    As for vaccines causing autism, just call me a "denier" I guess. . . . esp considering the symptoms of autism start becoming noticeable about the same time of vaccination. However, I find that more along the lines of coincidence in timing, than cause and effect.

  • ||

    "But if you only look at some of the facts, and interpret them just right, you get this completely undeniable conclustion!"

    The vaccine/autism link is just creationism for the non-Jesusy crowd.

  • kimgarba||

    You've looked at 'all' the facts, that's amazing. Most people just read the studies' summaries, interpreted by reporters. I'm impressed that you've looked every fact and every study, because those doing studies often omit data,at a whim, in their conclusions. It good to know someone knows all of it.

  • ||

    The tricky part is that often rabid defenders of the anti-anti-vaccination crowd need to also accept the fact that compulsory vaccination is just plain wrong. Say someone has an family history of problems with vaccines. Or what if an isolated case crops up. Who takes the blame?

    People need to be educated that whenever they take a drug they may have individual side effects - and that there are risks, sometimes ones we cannot predict, and that they are accepting that risk for the benefit of immunity - and that they are free to bow out of it.

    Besides, "herd vaccination" is total paternalistic bullshit.

  • ||

    I agree, except to the extent that "herd immunity" is BS. It's real, but I still don't think vaccines should be mandatory (and in truth, they're really not... in most places you can claim a religious exemption without them checking on it)

    But I'm certainly going to continue to attack the "science" (really, the lack thereof) that the anti-vaccinationists use. Won't apologize for that.

  • ||

    Herd immunity is a statistical theory. I challenge you to find a blinded study checking on it. You won't.

  • ||

    Forgive me if this double-posts, but it got lost before.

    Here is a link regarding a herd immunity study. I'm no immunologist, but it seems real to me.
    http://www.reuters.com/article.....PX20100309

  • ||

    no this is an epidemiological study, not a blinded one.

    "Influenza struck 2,326 unvaccinated participants in the 46 religious Hutterite communities in western Canada that were chosen for study because they have limited outside contacts."

    Plenty of problems with that initial population choice.

  • ||

    Blinded studies are important for many reasons, and a re a valuable scientific tool, but are not applicable to every situation. How would you even design a blinded study for a statistical phenomena such as herd immunity?

  • ||

    Zoidburg,

    I believe the study would need to be population based, using prevalence of vacination towards a given disease stratified by community with some sort of measurement on 'level of interpersonal contact' between individuals who compose the community, and then have raters who are blinded to what community a given subject comes from, and have the rater make diagnoses for the disease. Or look at vaccination rates by community and see if there is a correlation towards frequency/severity of an outbreak for the vaccinated disease (i.e., measles).

  • ||

    Once you accept the following premises, how does herd immunity not follow:

    1) The disease is spread by casual contact;

    2) The vaccine lowers the chance that one will contract the disease, but does not bring the chance to 0% for all time.

    The size of the effect obviously changes given the inputs, and there can be factors working in the other direction. Certainly some people will contract a disease from vaccines for the same reason that vaccines aren't perfect. Logically in the limit as the vaccinated population goes to 100% we expect these effects to cross at some point-- being the only person in the entire world not vaccinated is superior to everyone being vaccinated.

    But it makes sense to concentrate one's efforts of specifically the efficacy of the vaccine and the transmission propensity of the disease, both things that are studied in double blind studies as well as in epidemiological population studies. (One can also question mandatory vaccines for diseases spread by contact other than casual non-consensual contact.) The general concept of herd immunity is obvious and sound.

  • ||

    being the only person in the entire world not vaccinated is superior to everyone being vaccinated.

    I, and my children, agree completely.

  • ||

    no this is an epidemiological study, not a blinded one.

    So? It's a epidemiological issue. The double-blind studies are necessary to demonstrate that the vaccine works and that transmission occurs by exposure to others infected. That's been done. If you accept that, then it completely follows by accepting basic mathematics.

    Believing that the vaccines themselves work and that diseases are transmitted from contact with sick people and disbelieving in herd immunity is IMNSHO the craziest combinations of belief that I've ever heard people utter. Every other conspiracy theory that I can think of is utterly more reasonable.

    Disbelieving scientific consensus is one thing, but this is mathematics.

    ObDisclosure: I'm a PhD probabilist.

  • ||

    It's too bad that you believe that science is a constructivist endeavor. I mean, why bother studying fluid dynamics when you can derive everything from quantum mech and mathematics.

  • ||

    It's too bad that you believe that science is a constructivist endeavor. I mean, why bother studying fluid dynamics when you can derive everything from quantum mech and mathematics.

    Non sequitur.

    The mathematics involved in herd immunity have been repeatedly tested in real-world applications. They can be easily applied to other situations, once given premises.

    It's much more reasonable to believe that vaccines cause autism than to disbelieve entirely in herd immunity, which is what "total paternalistic bullshit" strongly implies.

    You can disagree about the degree of it, but it's largely determined by a few factors, such as the chance of being contracting the disease from a sick person, and the effectiveness of the vaccine, that you don't seem to be challenging.

    You seem to be granting all the underlying premises and then doubting the existence of logic itself.

  • ||

    It's too bad that you believe that while arithmetic may be proven to function for cows, that proves absolutely nothing about whether you can also use addition and multiplication when counting chickens, without special blinded studied focused only on chickens.

  • ||

    Maybe i should be more explicit about my objection. The concept of herd immunity is sound on a general level, but the notion that we can easily calculate it (or even estimate it) is seriously flawed.

    It's kind of like this:
    http://xkcd.com/384/

  • ||

    (hence my worries about people in authority using herd immunity figures, or even the concept, to press people into immunization)

  • ||

    being even more explicit:

    "It's largely determined by a few factors, such as the chance of being contracting the disease from a sick person, and the effectiveness of the vaccine, that you don't seem to be challenging."

    That's exactly what I'm objecting to. It's not the combination of a FEW factors, it's the combination of MANY. Herd immunity depends on, say, how often we have contact with each other, and how. For a group of swingers (sex partners or dancers) it may be different for different reasons than a group of kids who live in a commune. Genetic background matters, too. Some people have better innate, pre-infectious proliferation response to certain conditions than others, maybe, say, because their ancestors lived through an onslaught of a similar disease centuries ago.

    too much aggregation / ignores pathogen action and motivation

  • ||

    Herd immunity is a statistical theory. I challenge you to find a blinded study checking on it. You won't.

    Herd immunity is mathematics plus germ theory. (Just as Communism is Soviet power plus electrification, right.)

    If you believe that diseases can be transmitted from person to person, and the vaccines work, then you're completely insane to disbelieve herd immunity. It's like disbelieving mathematics.

  • ||

    As a former math major, it pains me to hear mathematics confused for statistics.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    If you believe that diseases can be transmitted from person to person, and the vaccines work, then you're completely insane to disbelieve herd immunity. It's like disbelieving mathematics.

    It's not a matter of math, it's a matter of calculated risk, which is why the more people who buy into herd immunity, the less effective it becomes. The whole reason why vaccines work is because it's a chain, every chain that is broken allows for further consequence. There have been numerous children with-held from vaccines by well intended parents (although perhaps misguided) who have contracted diseases in this country which have previously been irradicated.

    Depending on where you live, if you're in an area with high illegal immigration for example where the population goes largely unvaccinated, with-holding vaccines is NOT a matter of math, but a matter of calculated risk.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Oops, let me try this again, I meant to quote the first part:

    If you believe that diseases can be transmitted from person to person, and the vaccines work, then you're completely insane to disbelieve herd immunity. It's like disbelieving mathematics.

    It's not a matter of math, it's a matter of calculated risk, which is why the more people who buy into herd immunity, the less effective it becomes. The whole reason why vaccines work is because it's a chain, every chain that is broken allows for further consequence. There have been numerous children with-held from vaccines by well intended parents (although perhaps misguided) who have contracted diseases in this country which have previously been irradicated.

    Depending on where you live, if you're in an area with high illegal immigration for example where the population goes largely unvaccinated, with-holding vaccines is NOT a matter of math, but a matter of calculated risk.

  • ||

    how in the heck would one do a 'blinded study' on herd immunity?

  • sheldon101||

    JAMA is a prestigious medical journal. A very recent blinded study of hutterite communities in Western Canada was very strong evidence for herd immunity.

    See http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....161828.htm for a popularized explanation or
    the full article at
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/c.....303/10/943

  • ||

    care to explain how it was blinded?

  • ||

    oh never mind.

  • ||

    summarizing: all of 31 kids were protected by immunizing 960.

  • I, Kahn O'Clast||

    Autism rates are up largely do to increases in diagnoses and the addition of many disorders to the "autism spectrum" such as the formerly trendy ADD/ADHD. When I was a kid there were loads of "retarded" children kept at home and many of these would now be classified at autistic and increasingly under attempts to be mainstreamed.

    Vaccines save lives. When I was a kid polio was still common and kids on crutches an everyday experience. And I remember the measles outbreak in the mid/late 80s that swept some college campuses and killed people.... Sorry if personal experience makes me biased, but even if the vaccines cause some small number of autistic children (which I do not believe) they are a net good for society.

  • Ray Ray||

    But there are risks, and even if they are small, a lot of times they still outweigh the benefits. I'm offended by these parents who don't even ask questions about vaccines, accept it as common knowledge that they are A-ok, give them to their children who aren't going to likely be exposed to the diseases that they prevent, calling people who choose not to vaccine stupid, bad people believing in bad science. If you stay home with your 3 month old and he doesn't go to daycare and his father had bad reactions to the pertussis vaccine in the 80s, makes a lot of sense to me that you may choose delay a vaccine your doctor recommended. It's silly that people don't even TALK to their drs about vaccines wanna claim superiority.

  • sheldon101||

    Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity. Here is the info on pertussis.

    Pertussis is spread by Airborne droplets is very infectious and requires a very high rate of vaccination for herd immunity.

    What this means is that you had better to be very careful to isolate your infant.

    Family doctors and pediatricians aren't experts on vaccines and vaccination. But they do know what the experts have to say. Whether you ask questions or not, the advice should be to vaccinate, unless their medical reasons to the contrary. If the doctors doesn't follow the official line where you live, get the shots anyhow and look for a new doctor.

  • ||

    If the doctors doesn't follow the official line where you live, get the shots anyhow and look for a new doctor.

    I don't follow the "official line" on shit, so I will do the opposite of what you suggest.

  • Steff||

    Making them compulsory, however, is bull.

  • ||

    i think it's more than just increases in diagnoses.

    I like this theory:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....s-locally/

    Outbreed, people.

  • ||

    aw hell, I twice linked to the wrong article. The theory is that autism genes distributed in an individual contribute to intelligence - and that when two smart people (who self-segregate) do the hanky panky and create some kids the chances that the kids have enough of those bad genes to trigger ASD go up.

  • Sniktpool||

    Yours is definitely one of the better explanations I've heard. I just wouldn't call them bad genes: if those genes weren't present, I'd expect that the resultant intelligence would be lower. As an experiment: does the incidence of autism decrease in a population with randomized parents? (environmental factors remaining constant in both self-segregating and randomized populations) Unfortunately, this study would be very difficult to perform using humans: the closest bet with sperm banks is out because would-be mothers would still try to select with their typical criteria.

  • ||

    I can't take credit for it, but thanks.

  • ||

    right, I should have put "bad genes" in scare quotes... And also technically they are alleles.

  • Sniktpool||

    I'd wager that some crackpot will start saying that if you go to college your kids will get autism.

  • Urkobold™||

    DISAPPOINTING. IN VIRGINIA POSTREL'S DAY, AN AUTISM/VACCINE MENTION WOULD HAVE BEEN ACCOMPANIED BY PICTURES OF JENNY MCCARTY FREEING HER ASSETS FOR OUR VIEWING PLEASURE.

    WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM, HIT & RUN?

  • Zenmaster||

    Why do you hate lower-case letters, Urkobold?

  • Graham||

    Contrary to popular believe; Caps Lock is not cruise control for awesome.

  • Graham||

    *belief

    Damn it!

  • Urkobold™||

    PLEASE STOP WHISPERING!

  • Graham||

    Can I mumble?

  • Urkobold™||

  • Graham||

    Bouncy breasts are bouncy! They glisten in the moon. They shine in the sun. They wiggle and jiggle and bounce and...sorry I lost myself for a second.

  • Urkobold™||

    WAIT, COULD IT BE THAT LARGE BOSOMS CAUSE AUTISM? THE URKOBOLD IS OFTEN STUPEFIED BY THEM. . . .

    SORRY, WHAT WAS THE URKOBOLD SAYING?

  • ||

    Frontline on PBS had a great piece on this topic.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/.....e=proglist

  • VikingMoose||

    No.

    now move the fuck on. NO. THEY. DON'T.

  • bob||

    If Jenny McCarthy is the spokesperson for anything, I can assume whatever she's pushing is bullshit. Now if someone with skill or knowledge in said area was speaking out then maybe we should care. If that dumb whore had healthy kids she wouldn't be talking about it. This a a disease for the Enternaiment Tonight crowd.

  • ||

    I'd like to address a number of false and misleading statements in this report.

    You ask the question: "What sparked this enormous controversy?
    Answer given: "A 1998 article published in the Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal."

    This answer really makes no sense, especially considering that for years in the U.S., the main focus of the controversy was not on the MMR vaccine, but on the mercury-based preservative, thimerosal. Mercury is a deadly neurotoxin. The MMR is a live virus vaccine. Thimerosal has never been used in the MMR.

    Regardless, Dr. Wakefield's paper is often cited as the cause of the debate over vaccines and autism. Are we to believe that the most heated controversy in medicine today came about because of one paper published in Britain over 10 years ago?

    In truth, the reason why this issue doesn't go away is because countless parents saw for themselves the regression into autism of their normally progressing children after receiving routine childhood vaccinations.

    It is incorrect to claim that mercury has been taken out of vaccines, but the numbers keep going up.
    See this report from WXYZ-TV in Detroit:
    http://www.wxyz.com/content/ne.....ztX_Q.cspx

    Don't tell us mercury is no longer used.

    Ninety percent of the flu vaccine available contains a massive mercury assault. This is recommended for babies as young as six months of age. This year the H1N1 vaccines was also recommended.

    The flu vaccine was first recommended for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy starting in 2004, even though the manufacturer's insert says plainly that it's never been tested on pregnant women. See this story from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel http://www.jsonline.com/news/29295284.html.

    Anne Dachel
    Media editor: Age of Autism

  • Joe||

    "Massive Mercury Assault"--band name?

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    It's good we have so many voices of reason speaking out at this critical time in our history. Thank you Ann for being one. Speaking of mercury & factoring aluminum in, I want to bring something to attention. This experiment gives one the idea of the "POINT" I want to make.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ilxsu-JlY

    Those who back safety of all vaccinations like to say;

    "But it's such a small trace of Thimerasol, you'd get more mercury from tuna" & such rhetoric but they don't have one leg to stand on because injecting & ingesting are two entirely different things.

    Brains, especially babies, are fragile & sensitive matter & who's to say how little wouldn't do the same harm in combination of synergy to different degrees, in different children, similar to the reaction in that clip?

    Listen to Dr. Mercola & Dr. David Ayoub discussing aluminum & then think about mercury & that experiment, too.

    "New Warning About Everyday Poison Linked to Alzheimer's, ADHD, and Autism"

    http://articles.mercola.com/si.....-2010.aspx

  • Sniktpool||

    Congratulations, you've invoked a chemical reaction vastly different from anything that takes place in the human body.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Tell that to all the parents whose children were victim to this craziness. Even as a little girl I knew something bad was happening.

    I remember back when I was in school & they lined us up. The doctor in his white coat & nurse in her white outfit & the smell combined gave me a real bad feeling. It all had an eerie quality that I remember well. In fact, at an earlier time when they were having a hard time giving me my shot, I was preschool, they had shot my doll to coax me & when that didn't work as they were pretending to give it to my Dad, I took off.

    I can look back & see me in my mind hiding under that desk in a hall near an exit. I had them hopping for who knows how long. When I'd get mad as a little girl I would pretend I was running away & hide close by for whole days each time so I could watch the frantic panic those I felt deserved a little of their own medicine went through.

    So I could have been under that desk for hours in that hospital, being used to holding out for long periods of time, until I felt like coming out. I remember lots of feet & fear something bad was coming. And it was & I was right, even as a young child.

  • ||

    I'll gladly tell anyone that your intuitions as a young child have no relevance to the efficacy or safety of vaccines. Young children dislike lots of things that are good for them (e.g. vegetables).

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I was still right! ^smile^

  • ||

    Ah, well, if it was an eerie feeling, I guess that settles it.

  • ||

    Reason.tv gives us the side of the federal health official and mainstream medicine, but we not allowed to hear from the growing number of doctors and scientists who do have concerns about the vaccine schedule:

    Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the National Institutes of Health, has publicly stated that
    the research hasn't been done that would disprove a link between vaccines and autism. See her video interview on CBS News http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....6809.shtml

    Dr. Peter Fletcher, the former Chief Scientific Officer in the UK, has said that there isn't adequate science
    proving the safety of the MMR vaccine. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/hea.....-true.html

    Anne Dachel
    Media editor: Age of Autism

  • Steff||

    Actually, the way you wanna argue it here would be to point out just how un-Libertarian compulsive vaccination schedules really are.

    If you ask me, a fight against compulsory vaccination is wholly libertarian. I can't fathom why more of us aren't up in arms about it.

  • ||

    The fact is, more and more doctors disagree with the safety claims of the federal health agencies and the one-size fits all vaccine schedule.
    These are just some of the experts who have books out:
    Robert Sears, MD.
    Dr. Sherri Tenpenny,
    Dr. Todd Elsner,
    Mayer Eisenstein, MD, MPH, JD,
    and Stephanie Cave, MD,

    Parents have to educate themselves when it comes to vaccine safety. We continue to allow the people with everything at stake in this debate to have the
    last word on safety. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention literally has oversight over itself. They approve, mandate, and vigorously promote the vaccine schedule. They also get to vouch for vaccine safety. It should come as no surprise that they also have the latest study showing no link between vaccines and autism. And if anyone took the time to look, they'd see that each and every study comes with ties to the vaccine makers.
    http://www.fourteenstudies.org/

    The autism community easily recognizes what we're not being shown. Pretending that only misguided parents believe vaccines cause autism serves to continue the impression we have that the media is not interested in honestly and thoroughly presenting this issue.

    Anne Dachel
    Media editor: Age of Autism http://www.ageofautism.com/

  • ||

    How much do you want to bet that when "creation scientists" talk about their doubt of the theory of evolution, they say exactly the same things?

    They cite biologists that disbelieve evolution. They claim there are a growing number of them. They claim that the "establishment" is supressing evidence of "intelligent design".

    How are you guys fundamanetally any different?

  • ||

    Anne, doesn't it feel nice to come to a site where you're allowed to express a dissenting view? I know that's stunning to you, considering that your disgusting site censors every single comment that even questions your anti-vaccine view.

    You also need to look up the difference between "ethyl mercury" and "methyl mercury". It's not that hard.

    It might be possible to have a "debate" if your side wasn't so constantly intellectually dishonest.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Here we go. When you have nothing credible to bring to the table, attack the person. You guys always resort to that. Too bad for you thinking people paying attention can clearly see who the truth tellers are & who is not. The days of duping the masses are over because public awareness has already risen to the point of no return.

  • ||

    To counter Anne's reliance on the "Fourteen Studies" with actual science, please refer to the following: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=451

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    lol. You can't be serious? That opinionated hit piece has no legs. In fact, it adds credence to the truth. You know that Larry King video that was linked there where Jenny & several others were in that debate? That was the beginning of waking the masses & we have Jenny to thank for that. And what Dr. Healy said? Yes, there are many voices of reason & they are all on our side who are working to get the truth out.

    Here's that excellent Larry King Special that woke America & where the tide turned in favor of "truth about vaccinations"

    http://iaminformative.blogspot.....-king.html

    Jenny's already done the pilot for her new talk show backed by Oprah. It will be coming out soon & that should finsh off waking any remaining sleeping sheeple.

    Public awareness rises daily & soon the wrongs will be righted & we'll be where to need to be on the correct road to the well being of our children.

  • KillTruck||

    My son has autism. I know he wasn't born with it, but I don't know what caused it.

    I do know that there are thousands of parents that had their thriving children vaccinated and saw instant, undeniable changes in them. I think it stinks that people like Dr. Koegel, people who's job it is to help these families, dismiss, if not outright mock, these parents.

    "We don't know what caused your child's autism, but we know it sure wasn't anything WE did. Good luck, Lady!"

    No reasonable person, including Jenny McCarthy, are calling for an outright ban on vaccines. Most just want fewer shots spread out over more doctor's visits. I know that might be a little more inconvenient for healthcare providers, but I find spending my time trying to keep my son from giving himself a concussion and trying to figure out how to help him talk rather inconvenient.

  • ||

    How do you know he wasn't born with it?

    Theere was a recent study that showed that @ 6 months, there was no observable difference between autistic children and non-autistic children in gaze, babbling, etc., but that there was an observable difference @ 12 months, before the vaccines.

    The "instant regression" thing... I don't know where that came from. Many of the prominent anti-vaccine activists (including JB Handley and Jenny McCarthy) have started claiming they never said anything about instant regression occurring.

  • d||

    Just FYI (and I'm not taking sides here): babies are given vaccines *before 12 months*.

    Just in case, ya know, you ever have one.

  • ||

    I do. And she's had all her vaccinations to this point (12 months old).

    But the vaccines are blamed. The above poster stated that their child regressed immediately after the vaccine. The evidence doesn't back that up.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Why are you telling a bold faced lie when there's so much evidence to the contrary? Do you have a vested interest or are you parroting what others have fed you? It's one or the other because if you did the proper research you would know better than to say such a ignorant & ridiculous thing.

  • sheldon101||

    You think McCarthy is sane? Here is the vaccination schedule of the doctor she likes best. He's a cardiac surgeon.

    http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/doctor.pdf

    In summary, this is a vaccination schedule that I would recommend:

    No vaccinations until a child is two years old.
    No vaccines that contain thimerosal (mercury).
    No live virus vaccines (except for smallpox, should it recur).
    These vaccines, to be given one at a time, every six months, beginning at age 2:
    Pertussis (acellular, not whole cell)
    Diphtheria
    Tetanus
    Polio (the Salk vaccine, cultured in human cells)

    You got that. NO vaccination until the kid is two. NONE.

  • Schoolteacher in NYC||

    Yeah almost everyone we know is doing this, whether they later vaccinate or not. Seems pretty sane to me.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Seems sane to me too. It's the shills for the pHARMs that want people to think otherwise.

  • AH||

    How did you arrive at the age of two? Why not four. After all, especially if your child isn't in daycare, he or she won't be encountering large numbers of people until then.

  • André||

    Ted Balaker is a smart guy but needs a better haircut before I can take him seriously.

  • ||

    Asperger's is the new ADD. Or is it the new ADHD?

  • ||

    Many of the symptoms overlap, so it is possible for who gets diagnosed with what to change depending on what's "in vogue". That doesn't mean that both aren't illnesses, just that it's possible to misdiagnose one for the other, and it is possible that they are overdiagnosed.

    As an apparently quite screwed up kid in the mid 90s, I was diagnosed with ADHD, though my mother says that they (the school psychologist) "were trying to say that I was autistic", and that she refused to believe it (though, curiously, she fanatically defends the ADHD diagnosis). I wound up drugged on various ADHD medications, mostly forms of methelphenidate for over 10 years (and she still insists that I need to be on drugs for the rest of my life). I bet if I were a 5 year old now, I would've been diagnosed with Asperger's instead of ADHD.

  • Sniktpool||

    Asperger's is the new ADD/ADHD in the sense that nitwits will self diagnose themselves based on online information.

  • Rublavirus||

    Yes, vaccines cause autism! Stop using them now!

  • ||

    Thimerosesal is still in flue shots, H1N1 shots, new preservatives still are toxic to kids. How many shots in one sitting are safe for 10 pound infants? Don't trust Denmark studies, they have they are based on 10 shot vaccine schedule. US has over 36 now. The vaccine companies make over 300 billion a year. They feed special intrest money to politicians and media. Everyone take a look at the CDC studies with Paul Thorsen.

  • sheldon101||

    You left out Bigfoot.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Wow. You really know how to add substance to this conversation, Sheldon. Big Foot? Really? I know, I know. You guys are running out of rhetoric & talking points to parrot & you're at a loss from weariness of truth kicking your butts.

    Speaking of not trusting Denmark studies, Jerry, it brings Poul Thorsen to mind. You remember him, don't you Sheldon? According to you guys he had nothing to do with that study that claimed no connection between vaccinations & autism. Even if he was the head researcher, he had nothing to do with it, huh?

    "Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M"

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....94303.html

    He had nothing to do with that study, Sheldon?

    ((((BREAKING NEWS))))

    "Statement regarding Dr. Poul Thorsen’s involvement in Aarhus University projects"

    http://tinyurl.com/34tp856

    "This statement confirms Thorsen’s “primary scientific and administrative oversight” of the CDC Denmark project, a collaboration involving studies which found against a mercury-autism connection. It also confirms the disappearance of funds and that “Aarhus University will not be able to collaborate with Poul Thorsen in the future.”

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Here's a biggy & soon new evidence will be coming out concerning H1N1 vaccine that will be added to the following crimes revealed here.

    "Confessions of a Pharma-Insider. John Virapen who used to be the executive director of the Swedish branch of Eli Lilly as well as worked for other companies in the industry."

    http://www.johnvirapen.com/

    Scroll down at the above link for his recorded confession that implicates the pHARMs in crimes against humanity

    Okay, let's talk some more of the past track record of big pHARMa.

    Science has made giant strides in the medical field but man's obsessive compulsion to mess with Mother Nature & greed has caused more harm than good in the case of vaccinations.

    How can we be expected to believe studies when we, now, know all about the shenanigans & fraud that's become so widespread, world wide?

    The fraud has even been recently reported in the news.

    CNN reported a couple monts ago that Dr. Scott Reuben, a researcher, admitted in court to faking dozens of studies for Pfizer, Merck;

    http://tinyurl.com/ycbnhra

    "It's become common practice for drug companies to support fraudulent studies & they openly supported Dr. Reuben's research & in fact, paid him to keep on fabricating them."

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I have a few more I'll try to send later because the spam filter stopped me. This information has to be made public knowledge if we are going to bring our children out of harme way.

  • Toawa||

    I'd say that one of the main reasons the belief sticks around is because personal injuries lawyers believe they have found the biggest money tree since asbestos...

  • Metazoan||

    Right. Besides, why does anyone think some bimbo celebrity or asswipe trial lawyer knows anything about medicine?

  • Sniktpool||

    I thought that money tree was suing McDonalds for giving fat-asses heart disease and diabetes.

  • mimi fox||

    I have a son who was diagnosed autistic since he was 2, he is fixing to be 7. there are many contributions to autism. i think the shots are just one factor that contributes to autism. there is a genetic chromosone that lives inside us that any one factor can bring autism to the surface. the shots, the environment and our diets can bring autism out.

  • ||

    My person theory is that autism is caused by mothers who drink way too much coffee when pregnant. The caffiene gets into the baby's brain, and overstimulates the neurons which leads to hypersensitivity and miswiring in the developing brain.

    Prove me wrong!

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    lol.

  • ||

    "Do Vaccines Cause Autism".

    No

    NEXT!

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    lol. Gosh you guys are funny. Not too bright but funny.

  • Sniktpool||

    Let's compare two conditions on a genetic basis: Sickle cell anemia and autism.
    The first is a verified hereditary condition where the subject's red blood cells are deformed and thus have a lower oxygen carrying capacity. It is caused by a having two alleles for a particular mutation. In a nutshell: a single genetic defect manifesting in a fairly simple biological system.
    Autism is a spectrum of psychiatric diagnoses pertaining to impaired social functions. Since the affected system is the brain, it's speculated mechanisms and observable symptoms are far more complex. In a nutshell: multiple genetic factors, acting upon the most complex bodily organ, manifesting symptoms that are interpreted in a more subjective manner. (Given that for all the rigor that has developed in psychiatry, two psychiatrists must agree on a diagnosis for it to be valid)

  • ||

    This presents a good case from the medical side, but it would be better if it looked at the big picture from a free market perspective.

    There has never been a study done on vaccinated vs. un-vaccinated kids and autism. We need to know if non vaccinated kids are getting autism at the same rate.

    Second, this video wrongly states that mercury is removed from all vaccines. It is not. The Flu shot given to millions of children still contains dangerous amounts of mercury. Many other vaccines also still contain it. Why the omission?

    My final point is one any libertarian should respect. If vaccines do not cause autism and are so safe and needed, then let's get rid of the vaccine injury fund and government control, the sealed papers on what vaccines have done to so many kids, and allow them to be properly litigated. We have no idea how many Hannah Poling's might be out there because parent's lack the resources her Dad had.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    We need to know if non vaccinated kids are getting autism at the same rate.

    Nah, they're too busy coughing it up whooping style to care.

  • John Best||

    The vax vs unvax study is done. All you have to do is look at the Homefirst practice in Chicago.

    The thimerosal vs no thimerosal study is done too. You can't find anyone with autism who was born before 1931 when thimerosal was introduced. So, vaccines never caused autism for 132 years. As the thimerosal increased and the age at which they were given was reduced, autism rose.

    Plus, we have the absolute proof that mercury causes autism since removing the mercury with chelation has cured thousands of kids.

    We have the genetics figured out too. People with the APO-E4 protein can't excrete any mercury. Prestigious institutions like Harvard and MGH confirmed that the APO-E4 was the cause of Alzheimer's which has the same symptoms as autism. Now we know that autism and Alzheimer's are the same thing...mercury poisoning.

  • Sniktpool||

    Citation. Fucking. Needed.
    Autism wasn't recognized as a condition until 1943: http://autismaspergerssyndrome.....in_the_dsm

    Pardon my capslock: ALZHEIMER'S IS NOTHING LIKE AUTISM!

  • ||

    check for the link to fetal stem cells and vaccines, it is no the mercury as previously thought.

  • Schoolteacher in NYC||

    Vaccine "science" is a triumph of government policy making over fact and investigation. I would think Reason of all organizations, my favorite magazine that I have subscribed to for 15 years, would have been able to see at least a little of that. Did you attempt any investigative reporting on the Denmark autism studies? On the thimerosal claims?

    In any case, I really don't care whether Reason sees a link between vaccines and the current epidemic of novel childhood health conditions or not. (I think there is one and we have chosen not to vaccinate our 15-month old son for the time being, like many if not most of our playgroup friends.) I do care that Reason defends my right to make my choices about vaccines based on what I think the science has demonstrated, rather than submit to government mandates based on "herd immunity", "free rider problems", or whatever the collectivist arguments of the day may be. If they don't do that, they can consider my long time subscription already cancelled.

    I am also idly curious if even one of the other commentors has a young child for whom they are currently trying to make these decisions.

  • ||

    I am unconvinced that there is a link between autism and vaccinations.

    That being said, I am 44 years old and have never been vaccinated for anything. I am almost never ill, and when I do get sick it is very mild. I drink and smoke considerable amounts and do not eat right. My wife, on the other hand, got plenty of them when she was a child, and there were many less given then. She is often ill. Anecdotal for sure, but trusting the government isn't in my blood.

    My son is 8 and my daughter is 5. Neither have ever been vaccinated. While I almost faltered when my son was young, I realized that I had actually survived 44 years without any vaccinations. Indeed, I had a couple of the childhood illnesses for which they now give vaccinations and are rarely fatal, especially in children.

    Looking (very briefly) earlier today I couldn't find any good numbers on adverse effects of 38 or more immunizations. The numbers that I found on the CDC cite indicated that there had been 500+ cases of measles in the US between 2000 and 2007. They cited "a 1 in 250 percent chance of death". That adds up to 2 deaths in 8 years. If there were only 3 deaths from allergic reactions or other adverse effects the vaccine is more dangerous than the illness. There is a reason that vaccine makers are immune from lawsuit. Hint: It isn't because they or the government care about you.

    "Herd Immunity" implies one is a member of a "herd". I am not. Leave it to the cattle to concern themselves with their collective.

  • ||

    should read : a 1 in 250 percent chance of death

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    It's that herd mentality that's causing all the harm.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    There seems to be a lot of mean & uncaring peopl here. I do find it intersting were allowed to have our say & I think if this site turns out to be the credible one you subscribed to, Schoolteacher, I think I'll be subscribing, too. I've never been here before but I'm going to check it out, now.

  • ||

    Is this still being debated? There was a study done recently that suggested this was more a problem in the USA than elsewhere. So what are we doing differently than other countries? Do we use a different formula? All I know is I had my kids vaccinated, because when I was a baby there
    was NO MMR vaccine--so I had measles before I was a year old, and yes, it triggered a disability. My heart goes out to all autism patients and their loved ones. However I have never read any scientific journal with the statistics the Autism Society advertises.

  • ||

    PREGNANT WOMEN ARE TOLD TO AVOID FISH DUE TO MERCURY. And this is ingested. They want to inject it directly into a child's veins? Why is the industry soooo adamant in refusing to use a safer, or less controversial alternative? Why are there not competing manufacturers of vaccines that offer a no mercury option?

    I am not taking sides on the issue of autism. But when I am told this is the ONLY option or screw you! I take full offense to this! We have alternative options for everything! Energy, Pesticides, Insulation...

  • Cookie Kwan||

    I don't think the mercury found in tuna is the same as thimerosal.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Mercury is mercury & either kind is dangerous. Ingesting & digesting are also two different things.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Actually, they're not the same, but since it was taken out of vaccines in 2003, I expect we'll see zero cases of Autism for children born after that date, correct?

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I didn't say they were the same,I said both kinds are dangerous. And you're mistaken about it being removed. It's in flu shots,tetanus & DPT as well as admittedly in small traces in others.

    So who's to say how small of a trace it would take to do harm?

    Cookie says; "I expect we'll see zero cases of Autism for children born after that date, correct?"

    No! I don't know where you've been if you think there hasn't been injuries since 2003. Not as many as there would have been if parents hadn't been wising up & doing the research, though.

  • John Best||

    Cookie,
    Do you know that when mercury is shot into the mother with flu shots, it also goes into the baby?

    If you do your arithmetic, you can also learn that the mercury that could end up in a one pound fetus is up to 48 times as much per pound as used to be given to 8 pound newborns with the HepB shot which caused the highest increase in autism ever seen from 1993 to 1994 when two states had zero cases of autism among school aged kids.

  • Sniktpool||

    1: Which two states are you referring to?
    2: How do they know there were zero cases? Was there a survey of the thousands of children in those states?
    3: You do know that periods can be used more than once per paragraph, right?

  • Sniktpool||

    1: Which two states are you referring to?
    2: How do they know there were zero cases? Was there a survey of the thousands of children in those states?
    3: You do know that periods can be used more than once per paragraph, right?

  • ||

    Were they? I was under the impression that it was still in vaccines. Interesting.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Your impression is correct.

  • ||

    @Hazel Meade...My son has Autism and I don't drink coffee...So now what is your theory? FYI..Just because people on here don't share the same opinions, one does not have to minimize the other's opinion. Aren't we all Adults?

  • ||

    Take off your stupid cap and put on your thinking cap.

    Only one of the following statements is true. Pick one.

    1. Vaccines Cause Autism.
    2. The Apollo Moon Landings are a NASA Hoax.
    3. 9/11 is a Jewish Conspiracy
    4. J. Edgar Hoover Wore Womens Underwear.

  • Jamie||

  • ||

    I took my perfect, happy, friendly son in for his 9 month shots and the doc commented how wonderful he was as he took the 5 needles. Then 3 months later another 6. He got flu/cold symptoms and the nightmare began. The shots triggered it, I'm sure of it. At the very least they need to be spread out. But if I could go back neither one of my boys would get any vaccinations. I'd take my chances.

  • jacob||

    The ultimate proof (or disproof) would be a placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blinded study of kids receiveing vaccines versus those receiving normal saline (or any other inert isotonic solution). You could follow this population and record the incidence of autism. However, there aren't enough parents that would be willing to put their kids in this study, and no Institutional Review Board would ever approve of it. My thoughts are that the vaccine-autism link would be disproved, but that's just my opinion.

    IMHO, parents should be allowed to believe what they want. If they do not want their kids to receive vaccines, fine. Let them deal with the consequences.

  • John Best||

    Jacob,
    This study would work great for Pharma since you'd be doing this now with vaccines that hardly have any mercury. This would not count fetuses who received mercury in the womb.

  • jacob||

    Enrollment would be the hardest thing for this kind of study. Do you know many parents that would allow their kids to be randomized? In other words, the children & parents would not know if they were getting placebo OR vaccine until after the study was completed, or there were some safety issues that arose during the study.

  • ||

    I'm a little sad I missed the raid. Nothing like debating an advocacy group to get the blood boiling. The proven effectiveness of vaccines sets a high burden for those who want to limit or discontinue their use. A study done to facilitate a lawsuit is not going to do it.

    Vaccines are good. Government paternalism is bad. Parents should vaccinate their children out of love for their kids and a sense of social responsibility. The government should not force anyone, no matter how mistaken, to receive medical care. (Though a deprivation of liberty after due process (quarantine) may result.)

  • ||

    Vaccines are poison. But lots of people are making a whole heap of money out of them - which is nice.
    Apply some common sense to child raising...
    Breastfeed, a year is good - 2 years or more even better.
    Dont feed junk.
    Get your child out in the sunshine, obviously dont let him burn.
    If you have a newborn, dont invite the world round to breathe all over him.
    Dont put your small child in daycare if you can possibly avoid it.
    Dont use fever-reducing medicines if your child gets ill.
    Find parents of unvaccinated children and discover for yourself how much healthier they are than vaccinated kids.
    Remember that Scarlet Fever used to be a massive killer of small children and now it isnt - even though there is no vaccine for it.
    Times change, we live better than we did and diseases that used to be a huge threat no longer are.
    Good health is in your hands, its not delivered at the end of a needle.

  • John Best||

    If you have amalgam fillings, you give your baby mercury through breastfeeding.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Vaccines are poison. But lots of people are making a whole heap of money out of them - which is nice.

    Wouldn't treatment be more profitable than preventing disease, or are you disputing that these diseases aren't a threat if everyone stops vaccinating their children?

    That's why children in Africa aren't contracting polio in record numbers, hepatitis, and that measles death in Africa plunged by 91% after a nation-wide vaccination awareness and free immunizations were offered as part of WHO, Unicef and Red Cross.

    You're nothing more than a dangerous zealout, spewing misleading information to suit your ideology rather than the facts.

    Jerk.

  • ||

    Could it just be as simple as an inherited syndrome? Is it that it's so much easier to blame a medical agent as the culprit rather than a genetic cause? How can it be that not everyone vaccinated does not exhibit the symptoms? One day the gene will be found that is responsible and the blame game will be silenced.

  • John Best||

    LaneyB,
    Yes, people who smear feces, bite themselves and can't talk have great success in attracting the opposite sex so we should be able to study their offspring with no trouble at all.

  • Sniktpool||

    Do you even know what recessive alleles are?

  • zentai11||

    Please trust us. Choose us! spiderman costumes
    We will bring you more exciting catsuits and better service.

  • ||

    LaneyB - what is needed to settle the gene question is a scientific study that compares autism rates in unvaccinated vs vaccinated children. Unfortunately it seems to be the study that science refuses to do.

  • John Best||

    Asking for the vax vs unvax study now is a good ploy by Pharma. The study has to be mercury vs no mercury.

  • ||

    Why do we continue to have this discussion? There will never be a study ever done anywhere that will satisfy the more rabid anti-vaccine people. Perhaps another 50 years of scentific study of the brain might make some difference, but I'm not even sure about that.

  • John Best||

    People who you characterize as anti-vaccine are simply honest people who present the facts to point out the hazards of vaccines.

    Propaganda wizards who try to help Pharma and the CDC slur honest parents with this bogus rhetoric because they have no real arguments to deny the truth that we present.

    Liars who represent Pharma and our corrupt government refuse to address the fact that we have been curing autism for ten years now by removing the mercury from our childrens' brains. This whole argument is specious since it was the CDC who told us the truth about how thimerosal caused autism in 1999. All of this sophistry presented by liars who defend vaccines is merely designed propaganda to cover up the truth.

    We know the truth. It isn't vaccines that cause autism. It's the thimerosal in the vaccines that does that. So, asking if vaccines cause autism is a disingenuous question and anyone who writes this garbage knows that when they craft their dishonest opinions.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    John Best, you sound like a 911 truther, just a different breed of conspiracy.

    We have not been "curing" Autism for 10 years since mercury has been taken out of vaccines. First of all, it wouldn't be called a "cure", second of all, the Autism rate has actually gone up, not down, since 2003 when mercury was taken out of vacs.

    So, I should expect that no children in the U.S., going forward will have Autism, correct?

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    John is using common sense & logic, Cookie. This comment you make about mercury being removed was corrected with truth back in this thread when you pulled this same bull yesterday. You need to wake up. I know you're not one of the shills here who represent the profits of those they work for since your input is so ridiculous. Ridiculous as explained to you once before so go read it & do the proper research. Do it for the sake of all the children. Staying duped & parroting what you hear won't be doing our children any favors & only suits to hold them in harms way.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Marsha, you lie.

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBl.....M096228#t1

    I have done the research for MY children and choose for them to be protected based on the FACTS. Not emotions. FACTS. I don't care if you choose not to vaccinate, although I do believe it is neglectful and teaches your children to live off of responsible people instead of taking responsiblity for yourself. The only reason "herd immunity" works as well as it does is because the society at large does their part to protect children who aren't vaccinated. If that falls apart, then the anti-vaccers get to hold onto thier ideology in spite of what's best for their children. I choose not to take that calculated risk with my children because the evidence supports that not vaccinating is riskier than vaccinating.

    So save the drama fo' yo' mama.

  • vaccine info||

    Did you include this in your research?

    http://www.whale.to/a/bystrianyk3.html

    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

  • ||

    "Curing autism"? And some people wonder why I said no study will ever convince some people.
    You do know that there is a theory that some forms of autism (and that label covers a really large amount of ground) could in fact be related to genetic components of mathmatics ability?

  • ||

    To our visitors:

    Glad you're still here. You're welcome to have your say, but please understand that people here have very good b.s. detectors. When you say things like "vaccines are poison" and accuse people of being "duped" or being "shills", you don't sound reasonable. When you make outlandish claims (like the CDC endorsing the theory that thimerosal causing autism in 1999) without sourcing that claim, you don't sound credible. And when every commenter on this site knows the good vaccines have done, you have a high burden of proof to convince us that we should have our children risk disease, disability and death based on anecdotal evidence.

  • John Best||

    Qwints,
    Thomas Verstraeten was a CDC employee in 1999 when he wrote his paper that proved thimerosal was the cause of autism. This was verified at Simpsonwood when 51 scientists associated with Pharma and the government agreed that he was right and forther agreed that they would keep selling these hazardous vaccines.

    People do not risk death or anything else when they refuse shots for common childhood maladies. In fact, having those minimally annoying things is what makes our immune systems stronger while giving us lifetime immunity from catching them again.

    Only a Pharma shill could advise anyone to risk causing brain damage to their children by shooting mercury and aluminum into them when safe vaccines could be made available without those additives by simply using single dose vials. There is no excuse for shooting mercury into anyone since we are all well aware that it kills brain cells and causes all sorts of problems. To pretend that this is an argument about vaccines and protecting kids from diseases is dishonest. This argument technique merely serves to deflect attention away from the true problem. If you would not inject mercury directly into your own brain, you are not being honest by ignoring the fact that mercury in flu shots goes into the brains of fetuses and causes brain damage and death.

    You might get away with using these argument techniques based in sophistry with high school kids but it won't work with me or any other educated person.

  • Windtell||

    There seems to be a very easy way to see if vaccines cause autism.

    Are autism rates the same in children that haven't received vaccines? A quick google search and a little reading says yes.

    How could anyone argue that autism is caused by vaccines if non-vaccinated children have the same incidence rate?

    The fact that experts can identify autistic children prevaccination in a double blind study seems pretty conclusive to me too, but my first point is all the conclusive evidence that I need to get my (soon-to-be) newborn daughter her shots.

  • Helen||

    That's the problem. A "little reading."

    To truly investigate this issue, you have to do a LOT of reading. You would see that all those studies comparing vaccinated and non-vaccinated kids? They never compared non-vaccinated kids. They compared vaccinated kids to differently vaccinated kids.

    They have NEVER done a study comparing vaccinated kids to NEVER vaccinated kids.

    Here is a closer look at one of those studies, purporting to compare kids vaccinated with MMR and kids who weren't.

    http://freedom2question.blogsp.....eally.html

    Now maybe you trust the authors enough to trust their conclusions. That is fine.

    But the fact that trust is required to arrive at the same conclusions is not science. It is trust.

  • Windtell||

    Actually, it's not so much a matter of trust, you have to actively believe that the authors are lying, even in the link you supplied.

    The (imaginary) example that they give is rife with problems:

    Henry: Diagnosed age 1. MMR at age 2. Followed until age 4.
    Unvaccinated group: 4 person-years.
    Vaccinated group: 0 person-years.
    1 case of autism in unvaccinated group.

    He was diagnosed with autism before he got the shot. Many children are diagnosed with autism before they got the vaccination. There's no trust here, this is a fact. This fact shows that the MMR vaccine doesn't cause autism.

    I have several other problems in the link that you provided but I won't go into those. The link you provided contains several misleading statements.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    If that link had misleading statements you could have & would have been able to point them out. You didn't so your point is moot. As for your saying:

    "Many children are diagnosed with autism before they got the vaccination."

    Are you aware babies get a shot they don't even need the day they're born?

    So that ridiculous statement you made holds no water. Not that other toxins don't enter in but vaccinations, definitely, don't get off the hook.

    Your spin & opinion are way off base. You need to do the proper research because what you beLIEve is a great big lie. Stop buying into the fraud that holds our children in harms way & wake up & help them for a change. Did you watch Vaccine Nation? If you did, you'd know the truth. If you didn't, look for the link in this thread where I posted it. Test at eleven.

  • ||

    A quick google search proves that Thomas Verstraeten has disavowed your interpretation of his research. See PEDIATRICS Vol. 113 No. 4 April 2004, pp. 932 at http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....113/4/932.

    It also shows a more recent study conducted by him showing no link between thimerosal and autism. See PEDIATRICS Vol. 112 No. 5 November 2003, pp. 1039-1048

    On your next point, people do risk disease, disability and death from "common childhood maladies." The WHO estimates that 164,000 people died from measles in 2008 (down from over 750,000 in 2000). http://www.who.int/mediacentre.....index.html
    Even in healthy populations with good medical access, measles kills almost 1 per 1000 patients.

    So you've made two claims that are trivially proven false.

    1) Thomas Verstraeten does not believe that thimerosal causes autism.
    2) Children who are not vaccinated for measles are at risk of contracting the disease which carries a risk of death.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Good work qwints.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    And the blind shall follow.

  • John Best||

    Qwints,
    Due to Verstraeten's honest research in 1999, we learned how to cure autism in 2000. That's how we're certain he was correct.

    No matter how many things he wrote that support the lie that thimerosal does not cause autism, one would have to be pretty naive to believe this. Verstraeten was given a job with a drug company in another country after the Simpsonwood meeting. Like all criminals who support the poisoning of our children, one can't expect that any of them will tell the truth. Same thing with the corrupt politicians who passed bills to protect them from lawsuits. Why did they bribe politicians for that protection? Would they do that if they were innocent? Do you think you're fooling anyone with this nonsense? Measles was no big deal when I had it 45 years ago and it is still no big deal.

  • Windtell||

    There are so many mistakes in this that I can only hope it's trolling.

    Unfortunately, I have a feeling that you actually believe this.

    I just deleted a large paragraph that I had written. If you really believe this, no amount of reasoning will convince you otherwise.

  • John Best||

    Windtell,
    it's always good to call people trolls when you can't refute any of their words. It makes you sound intelligent.

    Why don't you take your best shot at convincing me I'm wrong and show off your brain cells for us?

  • Windtell||

    I think Qwints did a fine job showing why you're wrong.

    I didn't really say you're a troll, just that I hoped you were trolling. You said that we learned to cure autism in 2000 which is a ludicrous statement. Want to back that up with anything?

  • John Best||

    Windtell,
    No, I'm not the least bit concerned with proving anything to a Pharma shill. I just write the truth so people who had their kids poisoned by Pharma can learn how to cure them.

    Your sophistry is immaterial to me.

  • Windtell||

    I've never been called a pharma schill before, I consider myself more of a pot head ;)

    Still, you asked me to take my best shot at proving you're wrong. I'll do my best if you explain your "we learned how to cure autism in 2000" statement.

    If you know how to cure autism, you shouldn't keep quiet about it.

  • John Best||

    That's when Amy Holmes did her study that showed she was on the right track. It's also the year that Andy Cutler got involved and taught thousands of us what to do. Now, thousands of us have cured kids or have kids who are much better and still improving. It can be a long, tedious process. If you don't believe me, just go to the Autism Mercury yahoo group and read for awhile. The truth will be obvious.

  • Windtell||

    Chelation therapy is unproven, unsafe, and medically discredited, as is the theory that mercury poisoning causes autism.

    It has never stood up in any study done on it and is considered to be quackery.

  • John Best||

    If chelation is quackery, why is it taught in med schools as the standard treatment for mercury poisoning?

    Please join my Facebook group and support my candidacy for President in 2012 so we can simply tell the truth about vaccines and stop causing brain damage to babies.
    http://tinyurl.com/36oto7j

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Until you guys wake up, you're all, knowingly or not, shills for the pHARMs. The may do a lot of good but the harm they do is massive, unacceptable & will be stopped. I'm placing proof here very soon so please pay attention because our children are being injured & dying out here.

  • Windtell||

    Maybe I phrased that bad, chelation is for the leeching of heavy metals from the body and it is the standard treatment for various heavy metal poisoning, even more than just mercury. I didn't want to say that all chelation is bad for sure. If I have lead poisoning, you won't hear me complaining about the doctor using it.

    Chelation therapy as a cure for autism is a sham.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    You have your shams mixed up. Vaccinations are the real sham & soon those directly involved & responsible will be held accountable. The paid shills representing them & their profit will have to find other work & the duped will wake up.

  • ||

    My son received a vaccine in 1994 that was contaminated, recalled, and caused brain injury to the several other children who received it. My son has had testing to rule out birth inj, head inj, and genetics. It was definately the vaccine that caused his severe regression condition. There is no doubt in my mind as to what occured just following his vaccination. He has subsiquently been diagnosed with PDD. People can say what they want...there is just no adequate studies on multiple vaccines, giving multiple vaccines at one time. There is just not adequate studies on the other preservatives being used. there is just not adequate studies on combinations of these things....as far as I am concerned. People can keep using the "anectodaal" responce, but modern science is just shameful when it comes to the vaccine injured children....there are plenty of them out there....definately enough to justify specific research funds! Parent reports are one diagnostic tool....not some falsafied anectodatal tales you seem to suggest. People keep wondering why so many parents abandoned the vaccine schedule....and I am telling you, they are not on a bizzare health quest...they have a child...or know a child who had some type of negative reaction following a vaccine.....we are among the injured...and our numbers keep growing. When a massive number of "anedoctes" follows a trend.....well...it's not rocket science, people...it's just not. Some parents are seeing the potential risks as they see them...far more significant than people are warned about....

  • Windtell||

    It's a shame that your son has PDD and I wish you all the luck with his development. But I have a few issues with your post.

    The first is that according to current scientific knowledge, PDD's are genetic disorders that can't be identified in current testing. I know this is a fancy way of saying that they don't know exactly what causes it but that's the truth. This is because children who are diagnosed with PDDs have clean test results but this spectrum of illnesses are clearly caused by chromosomal abnormalities which is why scientists are positive that there is an underlying genetic factor.

    Also, you say that there are no adequate studies on multiple vaccines, preservatives, and the effects of vaccines on children. There has been intensive research and studies on all of these; I'll be happy to give you links if you're unfamiliar with how to use a search engine.

    The anecdotal evidence for a link between autism and vaccines is strong but that doesn't mean it's correct.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I'm so sorry for the living nightmare you & so many are going through, Rita. Please don't let idiots & loathsome people get you down when they add insult to the injury that impacted you & so many. Because when you speak up, you're saving other children from the same fate & that's so important. The ignorance & insensitivity of those like Windtell is disgusting & unacceptable. Some of these shill are actually evil & greedy knowing very well the harm being done to our children & that's really scary. Our voices of reason are drowning out theirs of deception so thank you for adding yours. This way they fool no one paying attention. Everyone watching this conversation can easily tell who the people are telling the truth & who isn't.

  • ||

    Calling something anecdotal evidence does not mean that you are calling it false. Many people involved in the anti-vaccine community are dedicated parents who are to be commended for their devotion to their children. I can't imagine how hard it could be to raise a child with an autism-spectrum disorder. But similar to the passionate parents who are involved in MADD, people with the best of intentions and motivations can come to conclusions that simply are not supported by objective evidence.

    When MADD pressures judges and policy makers to 'crack down' on drunk driving, they often advocate policies that do little to enhance public safety while making us all less free. When anti-vaccine advocates discourage parents from vaccination, they make us all less safe. Polio might very well no longer exist if it weren't for the efforts of anti-vaccine Muslim fundamentalists in West Africa.

    As I'm sure you're tired of hearing, correlation does not equal causation. Most children receive vaccines. Autism-spectrum disorders are often diagnosed around the time when vaccines are given. Thus some children will be diagnosed with autism shortly after being vaccinated. That is not evidence that vaccines cause autism.

    The burden of proof is on anti-vaccine advocates because the benefits of vaccines are well established. Until there is solid evidence supporting the belief that vaccines cause more harm than good, people have a moral obligation to vaccinate their children.

  • vaccine info||

    The benefits are not so clearly established actually.
    http://www.whale.to/a/bystrianyk3.html

    And I think safety should be established by pro-vaccine advocates. We require such from everything else such as drugs.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

  • ||

    I read your link. I read this link:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4431

    The latter was more convincing.

  • vaccine info||

    I'm familiar with that link. You can't read both and walk away without having unanswered questions, unless you have a previous bias to believe one or the other. Note, the links I posted do not say vaccines do not work, they simply raise some very interesting questions on just how effective are the vaccines compared to how they are promoted. Raising questions on "if vaccines saved us" vs. "do they work" are a bit different. The articles I posted calls into question more specifically the vaccine contribution to lives saved and your post makes points about incidence rate. I see both articles with valid points but neither article really invalidates all the points of the other.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Yes, we are very tired of the rhetorin of correlation does not equal causation being parroted. We crossed the line fron coincidence to reality on this long ago & are waitng for those of you holding are children in harms way with deception, to wake up.

    The burden of proof is not on us as is evident to all the thinking people paying attention.

    We had that debate yesterday, too, the greedu & evil behind this mess tried to thwart for so many years. The update should soon be in. I can't wait for the video to come in. We couldn't promote it as a debate because the co-ordinators were afraid the pro vac docs would be intimidated & back out at the last minute as has been past practice.

    http://www.4dconference.com/default.html

  • Cookie Kwan||

    The burden of proof is not on us as is evident to all the thinking people paying attention.

    Actually, the onus is on you and your anti-vac posse to prove that vaccines cause Autism because it's impossible to prove a negative.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Cookie, if your Momma had been wise & not allowed you all those vaccinations, you may have been able to have grown a brain.

  • Briam McDonough||

    obviously you are not a thinking person Cookie..you are just another sheep that lets others think for you!

  • Cookie Kwan||

    WHat an odd, emotional reaction to a well known fact. You can't prove a negative. No amount of insults or tears is going to change that.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    You & those buying into all the deception are a negative, Cookie, & many posting here have proven just that.

  • ||

    my son 14 months old..speaking, playing with toys and interacting , eating normally, smiling, normal eye contact..all on video film,,,,15 months old..MMR vaccine.... 18 months..diagnoses of autism and learning difficulties... silence , non verbal, eating problems, cannot digest things..pain in abdomen ..lack of eye contact..repetitive play..different boy... now im sorry, but how much proof do people need? this exact scenario is happening all over..!!!

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Email me at Mofmars333@yahoo.com, Wona. I can direct you to a few groups of parents & nurses who may be able to help recover your son if you need that kind of help.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    lol. Get your BS meters your fearless leader here says you have because you really need them for your own bull. What Quints & you his loyal followers call BS is the gospel & you're too brainwashed to see through the delusion.

    Most can break though it easily, especially, those with good hearts are most receptive to truth & recognize it when they hear it.

    That herd mentality has got to be seen for what it really is. For sake of the well being of children, you need to stop being sheeple & become people. We are not cash cows or guinea pigs. If you think vaccinations are good then you're just not paying attention. I have a challenge for all of you, I'm going to post it in a bit. Most won't take it because you guys aren't actually looking for truth in most of your cases for whatever your reason, it's obvious.

    There are shills who actually represent the profit of the pharms putting our children at great risk & harm. These crimes against humanity has been exposed & it's time to pay the piper.

    To get ready for that challenge, those of you who really want truth, watch this documentary, "Vaccination Nation" & thn we'll really talk.

    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6531447125053615129#

  • ||

    my son 14 months old..speaking, playing with toys and interacting , eating normally, smiling, normal eye contact..all on video film,,,,15 months old..MMR vaccine.... 18 months..diagnoses of autism and learning difficulties... silence , non verbal, eating problems, cannot digest things..pain in abdomen ..lack of eye contact..repetitive play..different boy... now im sorry, but how much proof do people need? this exact scenario is happening all over..!!!

  • Windtell||

    What you've explained is the unfortunate progression of autism. The timing of the MMR vaccine is coincidental and irrelevant.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    All those coincidences. lol. Very funny. Try telling that to all the parents who know very well what happened to their children directly after vaccination. Doctors added insult to injury by always trying to take the heat off vaccinations as they were trained but good & honest doctors are setting that record straight. You guys cannot stand against truth & it's time those responsible for this sham & cover up face the music. We have our metaphoric pitch forks, tar & feathers & we will have our time in court. It won't be another kangaroo court as has been past practice, either, because due to the witch hunt against Jenny McCarthy & Dr. Andrew Wakefield, too many are now paying attention for that to continue.

    They've met their Waterloo because the Cavalry has come to save us & we are many. It's time to pay the piper.

  • ||

    Dana Elizabeth McCaffery died from pertussis while still too young to be vaccinated. Try telling her parents who know very well the harm of an unvaccinated population.

    This site is called Reason, not Polemic. Parental intuition is not useful in determining the causes of autism or the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Well Qwints. If Reason Tv condones this fraud it should be called treason tv. What's that you guys tell us about correlation not implying causation?

    I'm sorry for such children as Dana you mention but "Correlation does not mean causation" very much applies here.

    The trade off was not worth what we got & all one has to do is look at all the sick & injured children as well as all the chronically ill & diseased adults to figure that out.

  • ||

    Are you saying you don't believe she died of Pertussis? or are you saying that you don't believe that if more people were vaccinated then shed wouldn't have been exposed.

    While this case certainly does nothing to prove that vaccines are safe, it is an anecdote relating the very real harm that can result when people choose not to vaccinate. (http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html)

  • ||

    Windtell,
    I as well have an issue with your responce. My son had a contaminated vaccine, that was later considered a "hot lot"....It is recalled...It caused brain injury in other children who received it!!! My son was 3 yo, fully verbal and potty trained. Had the vaccine, ran a fever, lost all skills, and remains brain injured. There is no doubt in my mind there is a cause -effect there! They call it PDD as he is regressed in all areas. I will tell you what caused it...and it was the HOT LOT...the bad vaccine that he received in 1994. They dont keep "vaccine injury" as a diagnosis. They lable them something...and my son was relabled, years later ....as PDD.
    Vaccines have significant potential to have some awful adverse events associated with them, just as any other medical proceedure or medicine out there. They are not in a class of holy water, so when people do talk about the benefit of vacines, it is really awful not to mention there are kids out there, like mine, who will forever be affected by getting the vaccine. With more and more parents coming forward with issues, and adverse events, the numbers of the vaccine injured are not so small and insignificant any more.....* This is clearly the reason for the parents who are not vaccinating....we are among the injured....not for some health quest you keep seeming to mention. The ones refusing.....have been injured, most of us.
    And just like the child who they showed on Frontline who had Pertusis....I feel so happy that she recovered....my my son will be forever mentally challenged from getting the shot....I wish they would have shown him. Would have balenced out the program a bit. Bottom line...that girl recovered...my child...did not....and I have to deal with people who insist vaccine injury is not as real as the life I live....I am here to tell you....It is VERY REAL!

  • Windtell||

    It's very sad that your son suffered brain damage and I don't doubt that it's real.

    Vaccines do have side effects and some children do have adverse reactions to them. I hope that I haven't given the impression that I don't think that, I was arguing the link between PDDs and vaccines specifically.

    Some vaccines, such as your sons, are tainted, contaminated, or otherwise bad. Even good vaccines trigger a massive allergic reaction in rare cases that can cause brain damage or death. The CDC has a good list of known side effects of vaccines.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    You'll notice that almost all vaccines say that in rare cases a severe allergic reaction can happen. For some of them, like the first for anthrax, can cause severe brain damage.

    The flu vaccine in 1976 that lead to over 500 cases of Guillain–Barré syndrome and 25 deaths springs to mind.

    That said, I'm surprised that your son has been misdiagnosed. Brain injury from vaccines is a documented fact; but brain damage isn't the same as PDD.

    Personally, I'm not for universal vaccinations because I'm highly against nanny state laws. There is a risk with each vaccine that each parent should be allowed to weigh.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I loved your voice of reason for the most part but reactions to vaccinations are more than rare. They really are. It's plain to see with the writing all over the walls & those who are fooled will wake up because those working to continue the sham & cover up can't hold the damn much longer.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    This is continuance from the above crucial information I posted prior to the one on 5.6.10 @ 9:58 PM. It was concerning the "Confessions of a Pharma-Insider. I tried to continue this education for those in the dark back where this lesson began but adding another post with a link wasn't allowed in that thread.

    It was about John Virapen who used to be the executive director of the Swedish branch of Eli Lilly as well as he worked for other companies in the industry.

    Before I continue with what I have to add to that, I want to say I'm hoping to hear from John soon, as we activists & important persons of authority & influence have been hearing from others like him, who have blown the whistle on their previous crime bosses.

    No one should miss this video of John's confession he allowed to be recorded at that previous link I gave you, so pass it on. What he tells us is being done to our children, especially with the drug Prozac that's now the trend, will make you cry.

    The pharmaceutical industry will fold at it's core if they don't admit vaccination & harmful drug error, immediately, & take major steps to correct them.

    They must clean house & be forced back to the original purpose that actually had the health & well being of our "whole" nation in mind. This recent, shocking & explosive confession of this brave & noble EX-pharmaceutical employee, John Virapen, should be on every major news network & front page of every newspaper in the world with follow up daily just as the facts that Poul Thorsen ran away with all that research money when his cover got blown to the fraud behind that Denmark study that claimed no link between autism & vaccinations. The facts to that matter can be found above, too.

    John's confession implicates the pharms in crimes against our children & all of humanity.

    Here's that continuance;

    "It's become common practice for drug companies to support fraudulent studies & they openly supported Dr. Reuben's research & in fact, paid him to keep on fabricating them."

    Then this just recently reported in the news, too, "GlaxoSmithKline deliberately hid evidence of Avandia harm, says Senate report"

    "This investigative report also reveals that GSK engaged in the intimidation of physicians..."

    http://tinyurl.com/ybxdyrw

    Added to massive evidence found by a search using, "faked studies and paid doctors to put their names on them", leaves no room for doubt.

    Here's more that pops up for your convenience & edification but all this I'm sending isn't even the tip of the iceberg:

    There's quite a bit more but it all comes with links & only two are allowed. I'll try to post some more later.

    Did you guys watch that documentary, "Vaccination Nation" I sent you earlier & are you about ready for that challenge I mentioned? Stand by!

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    ((((More Ex-Pharma Employees Coming Forward.)))) Hey, everyone. Do you think the pHARMs are quaking in their shoes? I do. I think we're shaking their very foundation & rocking their world. I feel sorry for some of these people working for big pHARMa who didn't have a clue but are now waking to the reality of the living nightmare many have been sentenced to due to greed & too many looking the other way.

    Time to admit error & right the many wrongs. Revamp the system & throw the bums out. They should have enough blood money to last life times so they should do a Poul Thorsen & take the money & run, while they can. There's plenty of good & honest doctors & scientists who will pick up the pieces & carry on.

    Time for big pHARMa to face the music. Time to clean house & get back to the original purpose that actually had are well being in mind.

    "Ex-Pharmaceutical Rep. Speaks Out"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M

    "Ex-Pharmaceutical Rep: Billions Spent on Drug Ads"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhV0zDVXd18

  • ||

    I feel like you're shifting your goalposts somewhat. There absolutely are problems with the way the pharmaceutical industry does medical research. (The bias to publish positive results while burying negative results top among them.) These problems are widely discussed in the mainstream medical literature and real action has been taken against manufacturers who cross the line into malfeasance.

    The very real problems you present here, however, do not directly on the validity of vaccines. They are, instead, an ad hominem argument. I hear you as saying "We shouldn't trust vaccines because some of their manufacturers have done bad things." This type of argument, while affecting the credibility of GlaxoSmithKline and Eli Lilly, does not address the validity of their studies. Rather, like many other conspiracies, it seems to be an effort to dismiss any evidence which is inconsistent with one's pre-existing belief.

    I would also encourage you to avoid juvenile tactics such as labeling people in the pharmaceutical industry as "pHARMs." It makes me think you have more in common with Alex Jones than George Will.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Quints! "I feel like you're shifting your goal posts somewhat."

    That old rhetoric & talking point went out a long time ago. You need new material. Parrots can't win this war the greedy have waged against the well being of our children because too many are now awake. You should turn it off & hang it up because nobody is buying that propaganda any more. Only ignorant people who are too lazy to do their own research & stupid people who aren't able to think for themselves are still buying what you sell.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Marsha, actually, if you had proof that vaccines cause Autism, all of us here would agree with you. That's the difference between ideology and science. So far, it hasn't been proven. Conjecture is not proof.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    The proof is all the injured, sick & dead children. Then there's the huge population of chronically ill & diseased adults this nation has become that's been on the rise & right in step with the increase of vaccinations through the years. What more evidence could you possibly need? (((((WAKE UP)))) And help save the children, people. It's not rocket science.

  • ||

    Save the children campaigns are unlikely to be persuasive to most Reason readers. Your response clearly begs the question

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    "Save the children campaigns are unlikely to be persuasive to most Reason readers"

    Why is that, Qwints? Don't they have hearts & bleed, too? Are they so inhumane they wouldn't want to be on the moral & humane side of humanity?

    I don't believe that, Qwints. I think many have woke up reading here. I'd bet on it. How about "Schoolteacher" here who's going to cancel her subscription she's so upset at this fraud? No! Everyone who reads here are not with you on this or like you few here posting. You are a minority in this matter & that's a good thing.

  • ||

    Regardless of anyone's *OPINION*, the *FACTS* are CDC has stated VACCINES CAN CAUSE AUTISM tinyurl.com/Vax-Autism1 - and have paid out BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to vaccine damaged kids and have THOUSANDS on the lawsuit list yet to be heard.

    THIMEROSAL (MERCURY) containing vaccines are well over TOXIC WASTE LEVEL and expired or spilled vaccines must be handled by HAZMAT AS TOXIC WASTE. How can you justify direct injection of TOXIC WASTE into our babies (and adults) tinyurl.com/VaxToxicWaste and say it is healthy?

    Please note any scientific studies that show long term safety of multiple injections of TOXINS and VIRUSES in vaccines. (HINT - there are none)

    The only studies that have ever said vaccines are safe are those conducted by the Vaccine Manufacturers - EXACTLY what we saw with CIGARETTES and LUNG CANCER.

    ALL INDEPENDENT STUDIES WITHOUT TIES TO BIG PHARMA SHOW VACCINES ARE NOT EFFECTIVE at best and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS at worst.

    Read KENNEDY's (or watch YouTube video) DEADLY IMMUNITY -
    tinyurl.com/VaxDeadlyImmunity
    Why did scientists acknowledge the link and cover it up by adding in tons of kids under 2 yrs where they could not be Dx'd with Autism to make the statistical correlation disappear?

    Why do the surveyed unvaccinated population have ZERO autism (actually 1-10,000, where it was before vaccinations increased)
    GenerationRescue.com

    Read the analysis of the Canadian and Denmark studies that show EXCLUSION OF ASD and inclusion of NON-ASD groups to make statistical correlations disappear.

    Years ago you would have been taught in medical school to prescribe HEROIN, CIGARETTES, ALCOHOL and THALIDOMIDE - but today we call that insane. When the real evidence is reviewed, you will find the same pattern with vaccines. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin
    tobacco.org/resources/history/Tobacco_History20-2.html

  • Cookie Kwan||

    What would pharma's motivation be to perpetuate and increase Autism? It's not like there are a ton of medications out there for Autism and as I've stated before, it would be much more lucrative to TREAT the diseases than to give placebos or give vaccinations with knowingly harmful substances in them. What is their motivatin to poison children, causing untreatable diseases? It makes zero sense.

  • Windtell||

    So many mistakes in his post and you ran with that? I know what you're saying but still..

    "THIMEROSAL (MERCURY)" or the crap youtube video are both good starting points. Maybe you could note that thimerosal doesn't equal mercury, the extensive studies done on it, metabolic breakdown of it, the fact that infants receiving it have no elevated mercury levels, the fact that it's been reduced to trace amounts with no reduction in autism rates (they've gone up since it was reduced even). And so on and so on ..

    Truth be told, I don't think it makes any difference how much of his post you can show to be wrong. He believes he's right and nothing you can say will make any difference.

  • Windtell||

    I made a mistake, thimerosal hasn't been reduced to trace amounts. It's been completely taken out (with no reduction in rates of autism no less).

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBl.....096228.htm

  • Windtell||

    I made a mistake, thimerosal hasn't been reduced to trace amounts. It's been completely taken out (with no reduction in rates of autism no less).

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBl.....096228.htm

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Windell, I already posted that link days ago. Trust me, it will be ignored.

  • kimgarba||

    Autism can't be treated, but the symptoms can be. Just like BIG PHARMA & allopathic medicine always do. Put a bandaid on it. Don't find the cause, make a change and get healthy. Diagnose a symptom and prescribe a med, so you don't notice it anymore. It's still there, festering. Autistics are treated for anxiety with psychotropic drugs.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Oh, okay. I get it. So pharma companies are trying to get children to get Autism so they can make money off anti-anxiety and pscyhotropic drugs, many of which are available in generic form.

    Don't these drugs also prescribed to extremely paranoid people that believe pharma companies are out to give their children neuro biological disorders in order to make profits off of anti-anxiety drugs, of which many Autistic children are not even taking.

    Bwahahahaha!

  • Windtell||

    I've decided after reading SNCCLA's post that I won't be posting in this thread anymore.

    Those that believe that pharmaceutical companies perpetuate disease to make money and that all researchers are lying to them as part of a conspiracy theory can't be reasoned with. It's like trying to show a devout Catholic evidence that God doesn't exist.

    I shall stop trying.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    WHO Issues Warning About Corruption of Pharmaceutical Industry

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_20747.cfm

  • ||

    The fact sheet cited does not refer to vaccines. I absolutely agree there are problems with the pharmaceutical industry, that does not do anything to prove that vaccines are harmful.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Nice try Qwints but no dice. Saying the fact sheet doesn't mention vaccines is like saying a criminal isn't a criminal on Sunday because he only robs people on the other days of the week. Where's your logic & common sense, man?

    "Vaccine Proponents Conflicts of Interest"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uykFDR8USRg

    And did you forget?

    "Statement regarding Dr. Poul Thorsen’s involvement in Aarhus University projects"

    http://tinyurl.com/34tp856

    "This statement confirms Thorsen’s “primary scientific and administrative oversight” of the CDC Denmark project, a collaboration involving studies which found against a mercury-autism connection. It also confirms the disappearance of funds and that “Aarhus University will not be able to collaborate with Poul Thorsen in the future.”

    There you have it. Poul Thorsen felt the heat as truth closed in & took the blood money & ran.

    You guys will not win this war waged against the well being of our children. Further more, those working to continue the sham will be held accountable in a court of law, should they be found directly complicit in the cover up.

    It's time for truth in these crimes against humanity of "Error & Greed" vs "The Health & Well Being of Children"

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    You need more proof? And you say the fact sheet doesn't refer to vaccines? It doesn't have to. Ethics are ethics & they have been breeched.

    "Doctors found guilty of getting rich vaccinating our"

    http://vactruth.com/2010/04/30.....for-money/

    "A staggering 1,992 Indian doctors were found guilty this week of yet again profiting from the pharmaceutical industries. The Medical Council of India have found that doctors have been violating professional ethics, by excepting gifts, hospitality and financial gains."

  • ||

    From the article :

    "[V]accine manufacturers are offering vaccines at hugely reduced prices to doctors. However, many of these doctors are charging full price for these vaccines from the patients," Azad said, quoting the study."

    The ethical problem here is that the docs got discounts that they should have but didn't pass on to patients. Surely that's a separate issue from the safety of vaccines.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    It all counts, Qwints. All the fraud & crime, counts.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    And another one bites the dust because you just can't stand up against truth. Windtell copped out in defeat & we haven't even gotten to our challenge yet. Anyone want to say they actually watched the documentary by Dr. Gary Null, "Vaccine Nation", so we can get to that challenge?

    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6531447125053615129#

    Did you notice that skull & bones on the vaccine bottle. guys? I remember that from when I was a young girl.

    Here it is if you didn't watch it yet & as soon as one of you deniers here say the word, we can get to that challenge.

    Anymore cowardly cop outs?

  • ||

    I'll say I watched the documentary :).

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    It's late & I'm tired so the challenge will have to be tomorrow, Quint, as I want to address a much simpler mind with some facts I have handy before I go to sleep.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Dr. Gary Null is on quackwatch.org and got sick off ONE OF HIS OWN PRODUCTS THAT SUPPOSED TO CURE AUTISM!

    Bwahahahaha...

    http://skepacabra.wordpress.co.....-medicine/

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Gary Null has most impeccable credentials & the real quacks at "Quackwatch" go after him as they do all good doctors or anything alternative to the status quo that might threaten the profits of those they represent. It's their job as they're paid shills.

    They have been totally exposed & discredited as I'll show you in a minute. You see Cookie, the big laugh you belched out out is on you, poor thing.

    That hit piece on our good doctor is as ridiculous as the fact of your ignorance in quoting such a known fraudulent site.

    Good shills never use the Quackwatch site anymore because there's too many like me who have the low down & are really glad to share & jump on the fool that is silly enough to quote them.

    By the way, before I forget, Dr. Null just contacted me the other day & said he's currently on location filming his new feature film on "The New Poor in America? So, we'll soon be seeing another one of his great achievements that's designed to improve & help mankind.

    In fact, you'll all be hearing from a lot of us who are going to improve & help mankind. We are angry parents, activists & citizens, including many good doctors like Gary Null, some journalists, radio show hosts, some Ex-Pharma shills & even a few scientist/researchers who have some big surprises in store for those selling the vaccine snake oil.

    There's a lot of links to news on Quackwatch & only two at a time are allowed here so I hope I can get all the facts delivered here without as much trouble as it was last time.

    First I'll tell you, Martin Walker is a friend of mine & his last twenty years of work began with his publication of "Dirty medicine: Science, big business & the assault on natural health care". This book has been followed by 4 others all of which trace the people, the history, the aims & the cruel deceptions of 'quackbusters' in Britain & America. These books can all be found at his site:

    http://www.slingshotpublications.com”

    "Quackpot Watch"

    "THE LAST DAYS OF THE QUACKBUSTERS"...

    http://www.quackpotwatch.org/

    Quackwatch has been effectively discredited & so has the founder as the evidence shows.

    "Failed MD Stephen Barrett"

    "What kind of man would drop out of the medical profession and dedicate his life to STOPPING advancement in the health sciences?"To be continued.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    "Barrett's Funding - TOP SECRET...

    Barrett was cornered in a Federal case in the State of Oregon not long ago, and asked about his income. He testified that over the past two years he made a TOTAL of $54,000.

    How then does he afford to carry on fourteen (14) separate legal actions at one time?

    If each legal action cost him $100,000, that would come to 1.4 million dollars ($1,400,000).

    How do you squeeze 1.4 million out of a $54,000 total income?

    Good question..."

    http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm

    "Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court" Cases

    http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html

    "Is Stephen Barrett a Quack?"

    http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html"Quackwatch"

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I'll have to send the rest later as the software program has stopped me. I was surprised I snuck in three links last time & it didn't stop me.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    I imagine Quackwatch has ticked off a lot of quacks. I'm not surprised that they would try to sue him (if that is indeed true). Quacks don't like being exposed.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    lol. Pay attention, Cookie. Court hearings & judges have ruled against him. More links are coming & take a look at the ones I sent already. Let's see you present the same kind of dirt & number of facts against any one of our doctors as we have against the real quack.

  • ||

    From what I can tell from your links, Dr. Barrett does not currently hold an active medical license and failed a test to be board certified in psychiatry. He has lost at least two and possibly more libel suits (brought by him). A California court has also held that he is not an expert witness on "FDA treatment of homeopathic drugs." For the record, to prove a libel case you have to prove the defendant 1)knew the statement was false; and 2) published it with malicious intent. A court dismissing a libel suit is not holding that the defendant's statement was true. A court holding that someone is not an expert witness has more weight.

    All of this is ad hominem in reply to an ad hominem. (Cookie: Dr. Null is not credible based on self-poisoning story and information on Dr. Barrett's website. Marsha: Dr. Barrett is not credible based on libel case.) As such, it is completely irrelevant to the question of vaccine's efficacy and safety. Even if it were proved that Dr. Null were a saint or that Dr. Barrett was evil, that should not affect anyone's beliefs about vaccines.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    qwints, you're wrong. Marsha is holding up Dr. Null as the foremost authority on the "harm" of vaccines and suggesting that his opinions are PROOF.

    I didn't claim that about quackwatch or cite them as the foremost source of discrediting the link between vaccines and Autism. Plus, you shouldn't just buy into Marsha's links without question. Dr. Barret is not delicensed but retired. There's a difference. You can look up his medical license #MD005361E to find that he wasn't delicensed.

    Furthermore, there are many people involved in quackwatch. Quackwatch is the target of many unhappy and angry natural remedy healers and some people have made a career out of bringing quackwatch down (the vast majority of lawsuits against him were dropped), for whatever it's worth:

    http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/negrete.html

    I don't need you to scold me. I have posted several factual links on this thread which have been entirely ignored. You have lost credit in my eyes as somebody who reads conspiracy theorists links and takes them at face value. Boooo-urns.

  • ||

    To the extent Marsha is relying on Dr. Null's opinions as proof, she is making a fallacious appeal to authority. Any assertions supported only by "Dr. Null says" should be dismissed regardless of his credibility. (See Linus Pauling and Vitamin C megadoses.) I did not take Marsha's links at face value, but also looked at Dr. Barrett's website, news sources and court opinions. Nothing I said is even contradicted by anything found in a search of quackwatch. Personally I don't think that those things particularly harm the credibility of Dr. Barrett, but it's still a moot point as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    You're the one who's wrong, Cookie. I'm holding many doctors up as authority, there is no foremost to it. You lied about Dr. Null & his credentials & I reversed the attack of deception with one of truth against that quack site that serves to protect profits of the greedy pHARMs. You fell right into it when you tried to use that hack site. Truth beat you on this one as it will everywhere & time you try to lie about this matter.

    Speaking of doctors on our side, take a look at what I'm about to post at the front of this thread.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    "Founder Stephen Barrett loses Major Defamation trial in Hometown"

    http://www.mysticgateway.org/pages/watbarrett.html

    "Quackbuster Stephen Barrett: "Not an Expert," Declares Judge!"

    http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/editorial/quack.htm

  • ||

    SNCCLA, heated rhetoric does not cover up for a lack of season.

    1. tinyurl.com/VaxToxicWaste

    First, there is a difference between ethyl mercury (contained in thimerosal) and methyl mercury. The web page you cite conflates the two. The latter is not a good analogue for the former. See Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21. at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079072.

    2. The following statement "ALL INDEPENDENT STUDIES WITHOUT TIES TO BIG PHARMA SHOW VACCINES ARE NOT EFFECTIVE at best and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS at worst" requires a source.

    A meta-analysis conducted by the independent Cochrane Review suggests the opposite for at least the MMR vaccines. See Demicheli V, Jefferson T, Rivetti A, Price D. Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2005, Issue 4. Art. No.: CD004407. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub2 at http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004407.html

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    A waste of space posting all that rhetoric, Qwints. And any past studies don't amount to anything after what we've learned about the past track record of all the fraud. Added to the sick & injured children & all those adults who have had their health & lives ruined, there's nothing you could parrot that would prove a thing.

  • ||

    Could anything convince you that you are more mistaken?

  • kimgarba||

    Unused vials must be disposed of as hazardous waste, due to mercury content.
    http://www.idph.state.il.us/h1.....012510.pdf

  • ||

    OK, the state of IL requires unused H1N1 vaccine to be disposed of carefully. It's a reasonable conclusion from that the state of IL considers thimerosal containing vaccines to be more dangerous than "preservative free" vaccines. A quick google search reveals that a number of other states have the same requirements.

    Though this proves nothing besides the policies of those states, it is evidence that supports the proposition that those H1N1 flu vaccines could be dangerous. Thanks for making a reasonable point. I plan on researching what, if any, impact this on the safety of vaccines.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    How can H1N1 be accused of causing Autism? It's brand new and it's not even required. And again, what would be the motivation to knowlingly cause Autims via H1N1 vaccines?

  • Ralph Fucetola JD||

    This is a very good discussion of the vaccine autism issue.

    One final thought: if vaccines were safe, why would vaccination be an uninsurable risk?

    No drug company, doctor, nurse or parent can buy insurance against vaccine injury. So Congress, ever supportive the profits of the drug pushers, passed a law abolishing our right to sue for vaccine injury.

    Since private companies on the market cannot invest in uninsurable risks, only the existence of the VICP (Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) allows the existence of any vaccine production.

    That is, only the violation of basic free market principles, and the imposition of government favors for the drug pushers, allow this "industry" to prosper...

    If allowed to be free, the market would abolish vaccination. End of story.

    So tell me, what "Reason" is there to continue to push this barbaric relic of 18th Century "medicine"??

  • Cookie Kwan||

    Actually, there is a very simple answer to this question. You cannot sue the government. Since most public schools require certain vaccinations in order to be enrolled, the pharmaceutical companies need some assurance that they're not going to go out of business simply because the gov't requires it. Plus, since some of them are required to attend school, a rash of frivolous lawsuits would totally bring our court system to a halt. Can you imagine? A child gets the flu and the pharmaceutical company is sued?? That is exactly what would happen if it were allowed.

    It certainly isn't because pharmaceutical companies are secretly giving children Autism because Autism is soooooo lucrative to treat!

  • ||

    I completely understand the need to limit lawsuits but those with legitimate claims should be expedited and the Special Masters should not allow frivolous delays which could result in an individuals death while waiting for a decision.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    In continuance of all the evidence in my above comment on the quack site, "Quackwatch" Cookie buys into;

    "Founder Stephen Barrett loses Major Defamation trial in Hometown"

    http://www.mysticgateway.org/pages/watbarrett.html

    "Quackbuster Stephen Barrett: "Not an Expert," Declares Judge!"

    http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/editorial/quack.htm

  • EH||

    Autism=brain damage.
    What is causing so much brain damage in so many children?

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Many reputable, wise & honest doctors & scientists have been trying to tell us truth concerning vaccinations for many years, now. Their voices have been ignored & stifled until now.

    I'm going to show you many of those voices from the past & introduce you to one of many good doctors who have come forward at this point in history to save our children for posterity.

    Dr. Jay Gordon is a nationally renowned pediatrician & Assistant Professor of Pediatrics, UCLA Medical School.

    Read what he had to say on this matter of atrocity & read the many comments at his eye opening article for further education.

    "PBS Frontline on Autism Resorts to Pseudo-Documentary, Tabloid Journalism"

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....54691.html

    Then, also for your edification, here are many wise voices from the past who, also, have been trying to tell the truth;

    "DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION"

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

    "There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good."
    Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
    and Drug Administration

    "The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
    ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation."
    Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    "In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease."
    Dr's H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)

    "All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia. Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia."
    Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics

    "Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people...in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated."
    Professor George Dick, London University

    "Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
    Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    "In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises, there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate accurately the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use."
    Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)

    "Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose."
    Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)

    "The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used"
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    With reference to Smallpox;

    "Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
    ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
    Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

    "Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
    susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated."
    Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)

    "It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can't do it."
    Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)

    "Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself."
    Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

    With reference to Whooping Cough;

    "There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence."
    Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here's Health, March 1980)

    "My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
    nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others."
    Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    "The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine...it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage"
    Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)

    With reference to Polio;

    "Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country."
    Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA

    "No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
    children"
    Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)

    "Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent"
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Then, keep in mind the above comments, especially those concerning Salk & Sabin, in association with this earth shattering, critical & significant exposure:

    "Dr. confesses Cancer & other Viruses is found in Vaccines"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgBBwOnmy3w

    "Dr. Hilleman, who developed the MMR vaccines, said: “Vaccines are the bargain basement technology of the 20th century.”

    In the taped interview (with about 6 Merck executives in the room, their nervous laughter audible in the tape) Dr. Hilleman explains how in his search for uninfected monkeys, Merck imported green monkeys from Africa. Those monkeys, it turned out, were carrying the AIDS virus: “I didn’t know we were importing AIDS.”

    Dr. Hilleman also acknowledged that he discovered that the Sabine polio vaccine (manufactured by Merck) was infected with the SV-40 cancer virus. In the process of developing vaccines Merck scientists are shown to blithely disregarded public safety as they conducted massive tests exposing millions of unsuspecting people to wild viruses. Dr. Hilleman acknowledged that the cancer infected polio vaccine had been tested in massive field trials in Russia, then in the U.S.

    The interview was conducted by Dr. Edward Shorter, Professor of the History of Medicine and Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto. I checked the authenticity of the tape with Dr. Shorter who informed me that he did it when preparing a PBS series called “The Health Century.” Doubleday published a companion volume of the same title in 1987.

    The person who posted this censored portion of the interview on Youtube is Dr. Leonard Horowitz, a controversial and prolific healthcare expert with multiple academic degrees–including 3 doctorates."

  • ||

    Marsha, quote mining is a well known tactic of cranks. Dropping a bunch of unsourced quotes out of context does not prove your point. Furthermore, none of the many quotes you posted even mention autism. Frankly, I'm not quite sure what you're advocating.

    Before we continue our discussion, I would appreciate you laying out a firm position as well as how your beliefs could be falsified.

    1. Do you accept that vaccination is
    based on sound scientific theory?

    2. Do you believe that no vaccine is effective in practice? If you think some vaccines work, which ones in which cases?

    3. What harms do you believe are caused by vaccination? In what cases?

    4. Do you believe that the cause of these harms is currently known? If so, what is it?

    5. What would you have patients do if they believe what you are saying? Parents? Governmental agencies? Pharmaceutical companies?

    Until you lay out an actual position regarding what you believe about vaccines and what people should do about it, our discussion is unlikely to be fruitful.

    For my part, I believe that vaccination work in theory and practice. I think that any vaccine can cause harm in some cases due to allergic reactions or contamination. Since in my opinion, the benefits of vaccination outweigh the costs on both a societal and individual level, I believe people ought to be vaccinated and to vaccinate their children. I would have governments and pharmaceutical companies seek to encourage vaccination through public awareness campaigns and subsidizing the costs of vaccines.

    I would change my opinion if a number of good epidemiological or clinical studies indicated that vaccines caused more harm than good. For example, repeatable lab studies showing that the Flu vaccine caused a statistically significantly elevated risk of cancer in a human analogue caused by administering annual Flu shots that outweighed the decreased mortality risk of contracting influenza.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Sorry Qwints, I don't have time to play games & answer ridiculous questions so you can fill space & pretend you qualify for serious discussion. The facts are out & your ploy's not going to work.

    You say, "quote mining is a well known tactic of cranks?" That's funny because thinking people paying attention don't buy that. "Quote mining", ha, ha, ha, good one. lol.

    And you have the gall to say;

    "Until you lay out an actual position regarding what you believe about vaccines and what people should do about it, our discussion is unlikely to be fruitful.'

    lol. If that's not clear then you haven't been paying attention to fact presented in bulk. Oh, wait, I must have forgotten. It's not that you haven't been paying attention. It's more like you have an agenda because there's been more than enough evidence presented here to convince even the hard core skeptics & any sleeping sheeple with half a brain.

    Shame on you & you ilk for working to hold our children in harms way.

    Here's the latest bomb that's blowing you shills right out of the water;

    "Autism and the bad science of the medical establishment"
    By Richard Moore,
    Investigative Reporter

    http://www.lakelandtimes.com/m.....leID=11369

    "There they go again.

    To some, it might come as a complete surprise that the big government, big pharmaceutical forces of the medical establishment turn out to be completely without credibility, but to me it is an ongoing fact of life.

    From killing the elderly and maiming children with drugs such as Risperdal to perpetrating hoaxes such as the Swine Flu Pandemic of 2009 - nations are now unloading millions of unused swine flu vaccines the pharmaceutical industry conned them into buying - Big Pharma and its government allies peddle drugs to people who don't need them, and who often end up worse after taking them.

    When sensible people protest, the medical establishment engages in a massive campaign to destroy their credibility. They accuse those who disagree with them of bad science, and then use bad science to back up their own claims........"

    The rest is a must read.
    See you criminals in court soon!

  • ||

    If you're not even willing to say what you believe or what you advocate, it's clear you're not interested in honest conversation.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    You should stop trying to fool people, it's not working.

    You don't want honest conversation & that's a fact that's obvious, we've learned from past experience.

    What this is about, that you don't want to admit, is the harm the pharms have let loose on us, especially deadly & dangerous vaccinations. And yes, we have proved there's a connection to autism & vaccinations & the evidence is overwhelming. Actually vaccinations are responsible for much more than autism...ADHD, asthma, allergies, arthritis, autoimmune (and this is just the a’s)

    It's all here for anyone who wants to learn in these comments.

    Oh, & there's a mountain more, too. But what's here is enough to convince anyone as to what's up who's honestly looking for answers.

    This tactic of pretending one on our team isn't playing fair won't work because you can't drown out truth when there's so much slapping you in the face.

    We have tried to talk to you people but found it fruitless. We don't have time to be dragged into your back & forth where you work to deceive with spin, rhetoric, talking points & propaganda that you've been fed.

    Children are being injured & they're dying, too, so there's no time for BS games.

    The tell is on you when you go after me & others with making it personal when you ignore the facts we send you, never addressing or acknowledging merit or credibility to any of the evidence we present. That is except for negativity & down right lies back at us in attempt to throw the focus off the matter.

    We don't want to talk to you. We want to talk to people like your intelligent subscribers like Schoolteacher who said she's unsubscribing due to the nature of your backing the deception & not giving truth a fair shake.

    You don't need the details as to what I believe or advocate. It's all in these comments. The crimes against humanity & the remedy. In case you missed the remedy part as I saw you asked earlier, what I would do about this, if it was true, ha, ha, ha, like it's not.

    That answer was & is that the honest scientists & doctors will be who picks up the pieces & they will know what to do. Not me! They'll fix the errors greed took hold of.^smile^

  • ||

    As far I can tell, you advocate the arrest of anyone who's developed or marketed a vaccine as well as the "shills" and "dupes" who believe they work. You also believe that every (I think) vaccine is dangerous and commonly causes complications, including autism. You also seem to believe that doctors should not recommend and no one should accept vaccinations. I can't tell whether you believe that vaccination is sound in theory or whether vaccines are effective (as opposed to safe) in practice.

    I accept that you are acting in good faith based on your beliefs. Why can't you accept that people advocating for vaccination are also acting in good faith based on their beliefs? It's possible that the scientific and medical establishments are conspiring to cover up the harm caused by vaccines by any number of nefarious reasons, but am I acting in bad faith by taking them at their word?

    As for your claim that I am "never addressing or acknowledging merit or credibility to any of the evidence we present," I would point out that I verified the claim that various state agencies require the H1N1 vaccine be disposed of as hazardous waste, I researched and found partially true your claims about Dr. Barrett, and pointed out a study by Generation Rescue which implies that some unvaccinated children have autism.

    Furthermore, your claims are far outside even the mainstream of the anti-vaccination movement. (e.g "Too many, too soon). Far from advocating a slowed down and reduced vaccination schedule (a position suggested by some groups like Generation Rescue), you seem to be advocating no vaccination every for anyone.

    Besides the extremist nature of your position, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am part of some larger organization. ("We have tried to talk to you people and found it fruitless") Such attitudes are not helpful for discussion. I have done my best not to attribute to you arguments or positions which you have not taken. You have responded with insults, and a dismissal of my attempts at discourse. I challenge you to find one instance in this thread of my questioning your intelligence or the genuineness of your beliefs. The most I've done is derided some of your tactics as "juvenile" or as used by cranks. You, on the other hand, have called your opponents "idiots", "lazy", "shills".

    Finally, you claimed to have a challenge once someone watched your documentary. I did, and you said you would post it 2 days ago:
    "Marsha MCClelland|5.10.10 @ 10:28PM|#
    It's late & I'm tired so the challenge will have to be tomorrow, Quint, as I want to address a much simpler mind with some facts I have handy before I go to sleep."
    I await your challenge.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    I don't think you're a shill, Qwints. I did but not now. If you were you would not have admitted anything we exposed, period. I don't think all vaccine makers should be locked up, only those complicit in evident crime.

    I am not being rude or attacking anyone, I'm telling it like it is & being blunt due to the anger & frustration from worry for all the children & so many denying the facts.

    People are idiots as evidenced here & fact is people are too lazy to do their own research & content to parrot what they've been fed. And Of course there are shills.

    I do lean toward vaccines all being a bad things as one of my favorites from this site I already showed you says;

    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/index.html

    And that would be;

    "The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used"
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    There are many wise voices to be found there & added to the good doctors voices of today there can be no doubt.

    That challenge was neglected by me due to my activism tasks weighing me down & I have been too tired to go one on one as I'd planned in the challenge after taking care of daily priorities. The challenge that was supposed to pit all the honest doctors on our side who came forth against any I was going to challenge you to bring forward besides Offit who we know is a greedy beast who must hate children & docs that work for Quackwatch like Harriet Hall who is a skep doc. Most doctors won't enter in because they know we know the truth & they're steering clear.

    That challenge had to take a back seat due to other priorities that came up. So much is going on I just haven't been able to get to it. No need actually because rather than a back & forth that just takes up space & gets us no where, I had to choose to post here all the proof & evidence we have to teach those watching what's really going on.

    For example like the good news I'll post in a minute.

  • Cookie Kwan||

    qwints said: It's possible that the scientific and medical establishments are conspiring to cover up the harm caused by vaccines by any number of nefarious reasons, but am I acting in bad faith by taking them at their word?

    It's not about who you believe or taking the pharmaceutical companies at their word. It's the fact that a causitive link has not been found. You cannot prove a negative. And if you're entertaining that a conspiracy might exist, it's implausible that the amount of people it would require to keep such a secret under wraps would sustain itself. Furthermore, what would be the motivation to cause Autism and why has it continued to rise after thermisol has been taken out?

    qwints said: I would point out that I verified the claim that various state agencies require the H1N1 vaccine be disposed of as hazardous waste

    Let me use your own words. Even if this is true, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of vaccines.

    The H1N1 vaccines are only considered hazardous waste in multi-vial form and the reason for this is, the pharmaceutical companies have chosen this per EPA guidelines that restrict any known mercurty derivitive from being thrown away in regular trash unless testing confirms it's inability to leach. The pharmaceutical companies have not performed these tests yet, but it doesn't mean that that they do in fact leach. (Illinois actually categorizes it as non-hazardous and non-harmous hazardous waste)

    In other words, if you made yourself a salad and your organic lettuce has trace amounts of mercury in it (which it is does, depending on what soil it's grown it, trace amounts vary), TECHNICALLY you shouldn't be throwing it away in the trash!

  • Cookie Kwan||

    correction: make that, IL categorizes it as a non-hazardous/non-harmful hazardous waste. Contradictory, I know.

  • ||

    Marsha, must you call in the qwack twoops with flailing arms every time someone tries to *discuss* things with you? I quote:
    "Make no mistake about it people. It's important! We need to get in there & drown out those voices of deception every chance we get if we want to raise public awareness enough to bring our children out of harms way & make them take care of those already injured."

    Go ahead with your attempt in "drowning out" voices of reason. The bugs killing our kids don't give a crap how loud you yell, or what absurd conspiracy theories you subscribe to.

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Well, well, well. A big rat is jumping ship & the pied piper is calling the rest to follow their leader. I wondered when they'd start running like Poul Thorsen did when he stole all that research money & it didn't take long. He knew the faked study saying there's no link between autism & vaccinations had been exposed & wanted to get out while he could.

    The agreement between Obama & big pHARMa could have brought great profits for the $315 billion drug industry but with Tauzin jumping ship bringing his leadership to a close, the whole scheme will be falling apart.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61B4TR20100212

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    Here's the Health Ranger's report on today's great news.

    "Resignation of top Pharma lobbyist reveals deep corruption of health care reform process"

    http://www.naturalnews.com/028770_Big_Pharma_lobbyists.html

  • Marsha MCClelland||

    "FDA: Enemy of the People"

    http://www.autismtodayonline.c.....he-people/

    "The Food and Drug Administration would have you believe that they are the watch dog organization that will keep the American people safe from unscrupulous manufacturers, dangerous products, drugs and foods. Make no mistake; this is the furthest thing from the truth. Recently in the news, the FDA finally decided to submit a warning that children under the age of two should not be subjected to OTC cold remedies because of possible adverse reactions. Yet a one-size-fits-all vaccine policy is perfectly safe? If certain children cannot handle the effects of a drug that is supposedly so safe that it requires no prescription, why is it so damn hard to believe that some children simply cannot tolerate the toxic ingredients of vaccines?........"

    Go to the link for the rest of the article.

  • Windtell||

    I think that Marsha believes what she says and is sincere.

    From "Through the Looking Glass:
    My Involvement with Autism Quackery
    James R. Laidler, MD"

    I suspect that the majority of the people who promote “unconventional” or “alternative” treatments for autism truly believe in what they sell. They deserve pity rather than scorn. Most of them will never realize what a disservice they provide to the very people they are trying to help.
    ___________________________________

    Ever tried to debate someone that believes in homeopathy? Very similar

  • C.S. Bell||

    There certainly seems to be a correlation. Although, you can't discount the fluoridated tap water and toxic foods parents unknowingly give their children when trying to save money. This is a very difficult issue because of the other factors involved. However, when you add all three of these factors into your hypothesis, the conclusion is hard to ignore.

  • ||

    Vaccines are responsible for so many injuries and diseases, autism is just one of them. The list goes on and on. In the case of my daughters, my youngest now has epilepsy and my oldest has an autoimmune disease triggered by the flu shot. The injuries are not cookie cutter and in our cases, there are no genetic links. I trusted my daughters pediatricians, but we were betrayed and misinformed and I have a hard time believing it was an accident. Watch out world, I am now a momma on a mission. I can not sit back and see other children injured and fighting for their lives at the hands of those with financial interests in pushing mass vaccination.

  • ||

    Even if vaccines do cause autism (which hasn't been proven) - so what?

    Autism is rarer and less fatal than the diseases the vaccines prevent, therefore being vaccinated is the logical choice.

  • ||

    People seem to forget that vaccines like MMR protect people from far worse things than autism.

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