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Quick Impressions of the D.C. 9/12 Protest
I just came back from spending four-plus hours with the Don't-Tread-On-Me crowd at our nation's capitol. Expect a full Reason.tv report later, but my snap impressions:
* Big crowd. Do not believe any description that says
"thousands."
If there weren't at least a healthy six figures there, I will
permanently revoke my head-counting license.
* Nineteen out of 20 signs were hand-made. My favorite was "Stop spending our tacos. I love tacos." The most popular were variations on "Don't tread on me," "You lie," complaints about Obama's "socialism," warnings about the 2010 elections, references to the deficit or big spending, critiques of Obamacare, and (especially) cracks about various czars (including not a few that equated czars with Soviet Communism). Godwin's Corollary was satisfied on multiple occasions, including "Hitler gave great speeches, too," "the Nazis did national health care first," and someone comparing Obama's 2009 with Hitler's 1939 (alas, we didn't get to ask him whether America was about to invade Poland). Michael Moynihan did have a nice chat about George Marshall with the fellow holding a sign saying "McCarthy was right." There was an "Obama bin lyin," "Feds = treason," "Birth certificate," and "Glen Beck for president." Greatly outnumbering such things were references to the constitution, taking our country back, and so forth.
* Chants on the march included "Shut down ACORN!" and "Boot Charlie Rangel!" and "Don't tread on me." There was not a single "Hey Hey/Ho Ho" in evidence. Songs included "Glory Hallelujah" and "My Country 'Tis of Thee." The most moving chant might have been when we walked past the Newseum, with its ginormous carving of the First Amendment on the side, and the crowd spontaneously said "Read that wall! Read that wall!"
* There were some Obamas-as-Grim-Reapers, some weeping statues of liberties (and weeping Founding Fathers), and a sprinkling of V-for-Vendetta masks. The End-the-Fed, read-The-Fountainhead quotients were extremely marginal.
* By far the two most referenced politicians in signage and buttons were Joe Wilson and Sarah Palin, though maybe my eyes have become so accustomed to Campaign For Liberty shirts that I don't notice the sartorial enthusiasm for Ron Paul. I should note here that I didn't really listen to any of the speeches.
* There were almost no references in the signage and shirtage to issues of national security or cultural conservatism, although I did hear some "by any means necessary" talk about fighting terrorists from one of the speakers.
* The music, especially the politicized re-writes of stuff like "New York, New York," was dreadful even by political standards.
* By far the best dressed people at the show was a clutch of 20 or so twentysomething/thirtysomething types in tuxedos and evening gowns, singing and chanting a huzzah-ing stuff like "Freedom, not medicine!" and "Privatize Medicare!" and "Defend our insurance companies!" and such. It was those Billionaires-for-Bush pranksters, taking the piss out of the evil right-wingers by, uh, mocking the decidedly not-rich-looking crowd. The bait only really worked when they chanted "Bring back Bush! Bring back Bush!", which would be taken up by some of the crowd before they figured out the con, then they'd either laugh or make a crack about the "Ivy League kids" or "government workers" earning "time and a half" for their Saturday prank.
* Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him. None expressed trust in Republicans, and most preferred a "throw-all-the-bums-out" strategy. All but one did not care about Obama's birth certificate controversy, and those I asked thought it was foolish to bring guns to political gatherings.
* People had traveled from North Carolina, Alabama, Connecticut, New Jersey, Maryland, and Virginia, and Washington state.
* The view on Obama and his administration ranged from a "heading in the wrong direction" vibe to a "we're not gonna take it much longer" edge.
This is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful rendering of what I saw. With that caveat, I had a very hard time reconciling the human beings I talked to and observed with the caricatures described in pre-writes by the New York Times' Gail Collins ("The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply to conspiracy theorists who believe that Barack Obama is a noncitizen brought here by people who hate this country"), the L.A. Times' Tim Rutten ("the talk-show/tea-party right...if it has its way–will convert the GOP into an almost exclusively white, zealously religious, mostly Southern party"), and Gawker's Alex Pareene ("Glenn Beck is an actual terrorist, and the people attending his rally in DC tomorrow are al-Qaeda in America").
Political rallies are no place to seek the subtle truth, nor feel particularly glowing about your countrymen, and today was no different in that regard for me. But the meta-fact about a huge anti-Obamanomics protest eight months into his term is certainly significant, and very little of what I saw made me fear that Alex Pareene will be blown to smithereens by a suicide hijacker from Arkansas. I am confident, however, that I will soon be made to fear what I utterly failed to detect.
Paul|9.12.09 @ 6:51PM|#
There was not a single "Hey Hey/Ho Ho" in evidence.
Thank. God.
That is all.
Jeffrey|9.12.09 @ 6:59PM|#
One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be pointing
out is that big business and big religion have convinced
working-class libertarians they're on the same side. So I don't see
the same disconnect that you do there.
How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a
different event when you didn't listen to any of the speeches?
|9.12.09 @ 7:00PM|#
Matt I love your last line. You should fear,what you utterly
failed to detect and so should all politicians.
This is just the beginning, that rat hole in congress is fixing to
be peacefully removed.
Eric Dondero|9.12.09 @ 7:04PM|#
Excellent report Matt. Thanks.
ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5
million."
I think it's now safe to declare this the Largest Libertarian
Protest in US History.
|9.12.09 @ 7:04PM|#
Connectictu
Ah yes, the planet that Cthulu is originally from. I hoped some of
them would show, but wasn't overly optimistic.
radical|9.12.09 @ 7:05PM|#
just got back myself, funny you mention "by any means
necessary", i was wearing this tshirt
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj53/Illuminok/by_any_means_necessary.jpg
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 7:08PM|#
One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be
pointing out is that big business and big religion have convinced
working-class libertarians they're on the same side.
You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?
How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a
different event when you didn't listen to any of the
speeches?
Perhaps because I never made any such complaint? Also, since you
apparently didn't read it the first time around, note this: "This
is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an
attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful
rendering of what I saw."
Jeffrey|9.12.09 @ 7:14PM|#
> You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?
Hey, I guess not. If only someone would create a publication or
something to help me out here.
jester|9.12.09 @ 7:24PM|#
Glen Beck sometimes calls himself a libertarian. If that makes
him a libertarian, so be it, but he doesn't speak for this
one.
Speaking of Glen Beck, 'Glen Beck for President', eh? Interesting
thought. It would be precious to see one of his Tom Cruise moments
during a televised speech. Complete with crying.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 7:28PM|#
Hey, I guess not. If only someone would create a publication
or something to help me out here.
Fair enough. Less snarky answer: Libertarianism does not now and
has never = either love for Big Business, or agreement with Big
Business about what the best policy positions might be. In general,
the biggest of Big Business (say, Phillip Morris) tends to *favor*
regulation, because it's a way to suppress competition and game the
federal tax/criminal code in their favor. On the topic du jour of
health care reform, the "Big Business" both within the health care
industry and without (Wal-Mart, for example), is totally on board
with the administration's reform plans, unlike most
libertarians.
I hasten to add that I would not broadly characterize the crowd
today as libertarian.
And to follow up more on the Billionaires for Bush, when our
cameraman Dan Hayes interviewed them, and asked them about the
sartorial gap with the crowd, they replied that they had paid for
the crowd to be there. So, they were posing as the supposed
bankrollers of the supposed Astro-turf. As always, I give them high
marks for commitment.
Tim Cavanaugh|9.12.09 @ 7:28PM|#
Michael Moynihan did have a nice chat about George
Marshall
I hope he argued that if only Marshall had won the post-Pearl
Harbor argument, the Western Allies would have celebrated VE Day
alone in October of 1943.
Clarkspoon|9.12.09 @ 7:29PM|#
So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their little
white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their
small penises assault weapons at home?
Jerrry|9.12.09 @ 7:39PM|#
Ouch: http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37536_large.jpg
anarch|9.12.09 @ 7:46PM|#
If there weren't at least a healthy six figures there, I will permanently revoke my head-counting license.
The war on drugs is repealed because of a small victory in the war
on obesity?
|9.12.09 @ 7:47PM|#
Clarkspoon | September 12, 2009, 7:29pm | #
So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their little
white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their small
penises assault weapons at home?
Evidently clarkspoon left his/her small brain at home.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 7:55PM|#
So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their
little white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their
small penises assault weapons at home?
Actually, as mentioned in the post, it was much more than "a few
thousand," nobody I talked to had a kind word to say about George
W. Bush, I found exactly one person who was exercised about Obama's
birth certificate, and of those I asked every single one thought
bringing weapons to political rallies was not smart. Though I did
not examine penis size, you can be confident in knowing that you
are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at least so far.
Sulla|9.12.09 @ 7:57PM|#
Uncle Remus | September 12, 2009, 7:31pm | #
Sounds like a clan gathering for the 21st century.
Well, who wants to hang out in the Scottish highlands in this day
and age?
|9.12.09 @ 7:58PM|#
The way NYT cropped that pic, it looks like just a "couple" of protesters, not thousands.
|9.12.09 @ 8:08PM|#
To those who just can't understand why anyone would protest
against an "enlightened" Democrat administration, unless there was
some kind of racism involved; I'm black. Not African-American or
any other PC crap. Just plain BLACK. I am an atheist. And I am a
libertarian (small l). I acknowledge that some (not most) so-called
libertarians ARE racist, ignorant, fools, or just plain loony.
However, I utterly reject the meme that anyone who doesn't like Big
Uncle Sugar must be a redneck racist. And no, I never got a job
through affirmative action, never got a minority grant, or any
other crap that the so-called left like to hurl out to try to make
me look line an ingrate. My poor-ass family worked hard. I took my
first job at the age of eleven and held it until I was nineteen
(and still went to school and college). My earnings helped to feed
my family and clothe my brothers. In my neighborhood, a person on
welfare was considered a lazy bum or a drunk(how things have
changed!).
The people at those protests, whether they were black, white, blue,
or f***ing striped, are my allies in the fight to restore the idea
of reward for effort, frugality, and liberty.
So, knock of the racist crap. There are asshats in every political
party.
Shannon Love|9.12.09 @ 8:11PM|#
With that caveat, I had a very hard time reconciling the
human beings I talked to and observed with the caricatures
described in pre-writes by the New York Times'...
Yes, well, leftism is defined by their uncritical embrace of their
self-agrandizing fantasies. They settle on a narrative and stay
with it largely because they are usually heavily insulated from the
consequences of doing so.
In their fantasy, they and only they represent "ordinary" people so
anyone who disagrees with them must be distinctly unordinary.
Therefore they invent these caricatures so they don't have to
question themselves.
Their repeated insistance that the tea party movement is astroturf
springs from both their cryto-Marxist obsession with evil business
combined with their innate intense elitism. They simply cannot
conceive of ordinary people having their own carefully thought out
ideas about serious political matters (e.g.see the "small penis"
comment above.) Given these presumptions it is obvious to them that
evil capitalist have fabricated a "movement" out of fringe wackos.
It follows that tea party members and their ideas can be dismissed
out of hand.
The left has religiously followed this basic framework since the
70's and have repeatedly had their heads handed to them to their
utter surprise when ordinary people stood up for what they
believed. I suspect this will be another one of those times.
|9.12.09 @ 8:14PM|#
The way NYT cropped that pic, it looks like just a "couple" of
protesters, not thousands.
I am sure it was purely unintentional.....
Ann (at the rally today!)|9.12.09 @ 8:16PM|#
I came here from Los Angeles on Thursday, and Welch has it
exactly. I saw most of the things he saw.
I would say one of the most-moving moments was when the crowd stood
and quietly sang along to the National Anthem--and it was sung from
the stage without the usual trills and screeches that seem all the
rage these days. The singer did a very nice job.
When the Billionaires for Bush started up their "Bring Back Bush",
I shook my head, and replied: "Bring Back Reagan!" and the crowd
took up my call instead.
Neu Mejican|9.12.09 @ 8:19PM|#
Yes, well, leftism is defined by their uncritical embrace of
their self-agrandizing fantasies.
Making the different from any other "ism" how exactly?
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 8:36PM|#
Anyone who is interested about where those Obama/Hitler posters
and "Death Panels" came from
here it is. Yes a Democrat! If you really consider Lyndon
LaRouche a Democrat.
BTW WTF is up with this website? Maintenance?
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 8:37PM|#
Meanwhile, for what Reason won't tell you, here's my
coverage of the 9/12 Tea Party. Of course, what I discuss is
something Reason supports, even if they're too shy to tell you
about it.
So, when are the TP leaders going to stab their useful idiot
followers in the back?
Joe M|9.12.09 @ 8:41PM|#
Though I did not examine penis size, you can be confident in knowing that you are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at least so far.
Hahaha, I love it when the reasonoids mix it up in
the comments. Matt's just got a short fuse because everyone and
their dog picked on him this week.
|9.12.09 @ 8:42PM|#
My fave sign was 'Government healthcare makes me sick." 'Big Government = Big Mistake" ran a close second.
|9.12.09 @ 8:45PM|#
If/when this country is taken back and restored to the wonderful free, conservative nation she once was, we will have all these patriotic Americans to thank for it. We owe every one of them a debt of gratitude for what they did today, and for the past several months. If I were a government official in Washington right now, I would be worried. No one travels across the country and stands up to government for nothing. These people are serious. And God bless 'em!
|9.12.09 @ 8:49PM|#
I'm just tired of fools ranting about racism and "Ku Klux Klan" every time someone disagrees with our beloved utopia creating liberals. I'll bet dollars to dimes that most of these people have never been on the ground where I grew up, or any place like it. These idiots don't realize that their policies can have unforseen consequences. I lived with them, and while I admit to some good, it often turns bad down the line. I say, NO MORE! People can solve their own problems, thank you very much. YOU GO, PROTESTERS!
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 8:50PM|#
Besides his stance on Healthcare, not legalizing weed, and that he is black (this would only pertain to certain people), is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 8:52PM|#
In support of the protest I rented a small plane and dropped
thousands of pictures of me blowing myself on the crowd.
I hoped the pictures provide the moral support for the protest to
be successful.
For the next protest I willing to step it up and take pictures of
me with both a horse and a emu (the majestic emu is the porn star
of the animal kingdom, they work really well in front of a
camera).
|9.12.09 @ 8:58PM|#
alice bowie, please see my comments above.
To reiterate, I AM BLACK. And, I am a (gasp!) libertarian.
Respectfully request to not to see any more moronic crap about
protesters being obviously racist.
Of course, next I'll see nonsense about how I must be a self-hating
Negro. So predictable.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 9:00PM|#
Besides his stance on Healthcare, not legalizing weed, and
that he is black (this would only pertain to certain people), is
there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like
Obama?
Libertarians tend to not like presidents, not
black
presidents. In this specific case, I would say that economic policy
is a foundational concern of most libertarians, and on this
question Obama has turned out to be even much worse than George W.
Bush.
|9.12.09 @ 9:00PM|#
Though I did not examine penis size, you can be confident in
knowing that you are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at
least so far.
But what about Eric?
|9.12.09 @ 9:00PM|#
It doesnt matter to what color the President's skin is. It's his character and his policies that I have a problem with; and Obama isnt the only one I have problems with. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Henry Waxman, among others, all need to go. These people are too self-serving and too radical for my taste. And there are some Republicans that need to go too. This is not about party, or race. This is about freedom, and fiscal responsibility. This is about the Constitution. It's worked fine for over 200 years, I think it will work a little while longer.
|9.12.09 @ 9:03PM|#
alice bowie, this is a small goverment libertarian site. Almost all Democrats, and a hefty number of Republicans, are Big Government Uncle Sugar fanatics. What on earth makes you think anyone here would love ANYTHING about a Democratic agenda?
|9.12.09 @ 9:03PM|#
Well, who wants to hang out in the Scottish highlands in
this day and age?
If it's near the Balvenie distillary, count me in.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:04PM|#
I'll ask it this way then:
Besides his stance on Healthcare and not legalizing weed, , is
there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:05PM|#
Do libertarians feel that we should have toll booths all over the place so that ONLY the people that drive on roads should pay for them?
|9.12.09 @ 9:06PM|#
Maybe we ought to prevent the collapse of the electrical grid and just post things libertarians agree with as regards Obama's agenda.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 9:06PM|#
Besides his stance on Healthcare and not legalizing weed, ,
is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like
Obama?
Alice, please click on the first link in my previous comment; it
will at least give you the beginnings of an answer.
|9.12.09 @ 9:08PM|#
Alice,
1. The increased military presence over seas.
2. The massive amounts of cooperate welfare handed out (bailouts,
cash for clunkers, etc...).
These are a start, would you like some more?
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:09PM|#
Thanks Matt.
I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal
moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 9:11PM|#
So, on the day after the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, was there anyone protesting The Patriot Act or the wars in Afghan or Iraq?
Some Guy|9.12.09 @ 9:15PM|#
Songs included "Glory Hallelujah"
A bunch of anti-federalists were singing the Battle Hymn of the
Republic? That almost as good as the "czars = communism" signs.
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 9:15PM|#
The first comment is from me, the second is not.
Since Matt Welch is hanging out on this thread, is the imposter
using the same IP address as someone else? Or, just post the IP and
I'll take it from there.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 9:15PM|#
I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal
moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.
As always, we do not require an ideological litmus test for our
readers and commenters. Please drop by any time you'd like.
|9.12.09 @ 9:17PM|#
Double D: Hey, I'm Black too (though thankfully not as poor as
you grew up) and I agree with everything you said, down to the
racist idiots that infect the libertarian (and heck, just about
every American) political movement. My problem is the fact that a
large chunk of the country has surgically attached themselves to
Obama's genitalia. To paraphrase the immortal words of KRS-One, get
off his penis...give his genitals room to breathe!
Here's my thing. In the past 130-odd years since the progressive
movement branched off from the various Marxist-influence political
movements, we've seen the beast of unintended consequences run
wild. I know the people pushing this plan aren't evil, but the road
to hell is paved with good intentions. With healthcare, the last
thing we need is more "good intentions" in the rear-view
mirror.
Joe M|9.12.09 @ 9:17PM|#
1) Obama continues Bush's policy of amassing as much power in
the executive branch as he possibly can.
2) He's allowed our deficit to bloat to a mind-blowing four times
the previous record.
3) He's set us on a path that will double our national debt in less
than a decade, to the tune of
~$20,000,000,000,000.
4) He's pursuing horrible foreign policy that achieves little
beyond the loss of human life.
5)He's doing his best to destroy our economy by encouraging
nightmarish monetary manipulations.
And that's just a partial list.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:18PM|#
Please drop by any time you'd like.
R u kidd'n Matt...I live here. This is, by far, my favorate site in
the cyber world.
Matt Welch|9.12.09 @ 9:18PM|#
The first comment is from me, the second is not.
Since Matt Welch is hanging out on this thread, is the imposter
using the same IP address as someone else? Or, just post the IP and
I'll take it from there.
Actually, Loney is right to bring this up -- please, there are
many, many ways to argue w/ our 24ahead friend without spoofing his
username. These fake-name piss fights are forcing us to overhaul
our comments system, which is about as helpful in the production of
journalism as stapling your own tongue. So, knock it off.
Joe M|9.12.09 @ 9:20PM|#
Yeah, I've always thought the fake name stuff was really childish and pointless. Just tell him to piss off because he hates brown people, simple enough.
|9.12.09 @ 9:22PM|#
alice, please give this some thought; if we did yesteryear what
we do today, we would all be riding buggies and burning peat.
Businesses fail. In fact, eventually, they must fail. It is not the
goverment's duty to make sure that any business survives. Yes, it
sucks if you lose a job, but the death of one business often
heralds the growth or birth of another business. We do not advance
by propping up failures. So, the car displaced the buggy, and
better overseas model cars displaced GM. The Big Three could have
either died or found a better, humbler business model. Instead,
they got a big handout. In essence, the taxpayers bought a sh**load
of cars. I'm still waiting for my free truck. Not gonna hold my
breathe though.
To make matters worse, the handouts were arbitrarily targetted, so
the government literally picked "winners" and left "losers" to rot.
Most of us would agree, if asked outside of a political context,
that choice and competition are important parts of a healthy
economy. Does any of this sound like choice or competition to
you?
Joe M|9.12.09 @ 9:24PM|#
I like to think of it like pruning a tree of its dead, dying, or diseased limbs. If left attached, they only take resources away from the healthy parts of the tree, much like trying to keep unhealthy parts of the economy afloat causes more damage to the economy as a whole.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 9:28PM|#
and better overseas model cars displaced GM.
Gm failed because they were running on an antiquated
business model for 30 years. There was nothing wrong with their
cars or trucks.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:30PM|#
Let me tell u Double D.
I'm a Quant/Programmer in the Financial IT world in NYC.
Although I would probably loose not only my job, but my career, due
to this meltdown; I was not in favor of the bail-outs either.
However, it appears that if they'd not bailed out the banks, the
meltdown may have been big. I don't know how much u understand the
capital markets but the counterparties of many exotic loans and
exotic financial instruments would have defaulted. It may well have
been the end of the American Aristocracy.
GW Bush and Obama did NOT bail out the banks to save the little guy
nor the big corporations per se...they were bailing out America's
Rich that did not have interest outside of the US.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:32PM|#
With that said...and not being a member of Americas Aristocracy...It would have been interesting to see the Financial Meltdown.
|9.12.09 @ 9:32PM|#
I like the sign that said "You can't fix stupid, but you can
vote it out!"
Not that the voters will, of course...
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:39PM|#
Sage, it's rude to call people that don't share your opinion 'stupid'.
Rich|9.12.09 @ 9:41PM|#
Even better would have been Bring back Cal!
How about: All the Way with T(NMN)J! ;-)
I think it's now safe to declare this the Largest Libertarian
Protest in US History.
Stay tuned.
|9.12.09 @ 9:45PM|#
Alice Bowie it's not a big issue with the recent editors (Matt or Nick) but previous Reason editor Bill Poole was a huge fans of toll roads. So "yes" is the simple answer to your tool road question.
|9.12.09 @ 9:45PM|#
Alice, I just don't think it will work out well in the long
term. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. And since I plan to live for
at least another hundred years, I'm definitely interested in the
long term. Adding insult to injury, I'm convinced that most of the
orchestrators of these giveaways are well aware that there will be
negative long term consequences.
Here's hoping sincere activism can stop us from digging a deeper
hole. We're already getting close to the core.
|9.12.09 @ 9:52PM|#
Chris Kelly thanks for the clarification about which posts are yours. For the IP address of the spoofer, try 127.0.0.1.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 9:54PM|#
Anything that is done will have adverse consequences.
However, i find the libertarian position on education, healthcare,
and other things a bit mean-spirited.
It is truly a luxury to be conservative. I know u r black and say
that the civil rights movement and the general welfare of taking
poor people of all races out of extreme poverty is robbing Peter to
pay Paul.
From my life experience, I'm glad the liberals before me did what
they did. And, I think things are better for all. People, like
myself and may, received public education, public housing and
assistance and are strong members of the middle class. We are
consumers of many goods and pay taxes.
This is merely my opinion, and I'm not calling anyone names, but I
feel that a community participation in education, health care for
all, and the general welfare to keep people out of extreme poverty
is good.
Look at Ghetto blacks/latinos today as compared to the 1960's. They
buy sneakers, designer clothes and silly looking hats, CDs. These
are things that I don't buy and didn't buy back when i was pretty
poor. Nonetheless, the BIG Guy is benefiting from this. Big, Small,
and Medium size Businesses (many started by these people) are
benefiting.
So, I respectfully disagree, and feel that taxing all to help the
fallen is not so much of a bad thing.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 9:55PM|#
these giveaways are well aware that there will be negative
long term consequences.
Their rationale is that they will deal with those
consequences down the road when and if they appear. As if.
It's just more smoke and mirrors, and job security. Once real
inflation starts to set in, the Fed will raise interest rates and
the Congress will raise taxes on the wealthy, and we'll be in for
another bout with stagflation.
|9.12.09 @ 9:56PM|#
I give them high marks for commitment.
I don't. They've flogged one joke for how long now?
-jcr
|9.12.09 @ 9:58PM|#
I'm glad the liberals before me did what they
did.
Really? Why do you hate poor people?
The liberals before you brought the process of economic advancement
to a screeching halt for a lot of people, by turning them into
permanent dependents.
-jcr
Paul|9.12.09 @ 10:00PM|#
ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5
million."
ABC News has denied that claim, and has reported it was a misquote
by Freedomworks organizers. They're
holding to sixty to seventy thousand.
|9.12.09 @ 10:00PM|#
These fake-name piss fights are forcing us to overhaul our
comments system
About freaking time! Seriously, why haven't you hired some intern
to install slashcode so you could have real threading. I mean, it's
only been available for what, six years or so?
-jcr
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:02PM|#
The liberals before you brought the process of economic advancement
to a screeching halt for a lot of people, by turning them into
permanent dependents.
Possibly, but would you argue that their civil rights
policies were destructive?
|9.12.09 @ 10:03PM|#
To reiterate, I AM BLACK. And, I am a (gasp!)
libertarian.
This is the kind of thing Captain Kirk says to a computer to make
it self-destruct in a shower of sparks.
"If he is black, he can not be racist, but if he is libertarian, he
must be racist... Does not compute.... Does not compute...."
-jcr
|9.12.09 @ 10:04PM|#
would you argue that their civil rights policies were
destructive?
Civil rights policies, no. Racial discrimination under another name
(IE, "affrimative action"), definitely.
-jcr
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 10:05PM|#
JCR is to a certain extent right: "liberals" are to blame for a
lot of bad things. But, they've also done some good things.
Meanwhile, the record of the other side is a bit worse. And, the
proposed solution by the "Partiers" would propel us to a revolution
of some kind, possibly resulting in the opposite of what they say
they want. But, don't worry: what the "Partiers" want won't happen
since even a majority of Republicans support NewDealPrograms.
Is there a pro-American, non-Gramscian, non-NeoCon, non-corrupt,
non-LoonyLibertarian alternative to the "Parties"?
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:07PM|#
Possibly, but would you argue that their civil rights policies were
destructive?
Forget about the civil rights movement. I believe that the
true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that
abolishing slavery was destructive.
I believe that conservatives/libertarians believe that everyone
that was born into welfare is a leach an is a permenant dependent
on the system.
Syd Henderson|9.12.09 @ 10:07PM|#
ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5
million."
Reduce that by a factor of ten, and I might boy it.
Paul|9.12.09 @ 10:08PM|#
Reduce that by a factor of ten, and I might boy
it.
60,000 to 70,000 is what ABC is reporting. I posted that above.
|9.12.09 @ 10:08PM|#
"If he is black, he can not be racist, but if he is libertarian,
he must be racist... Does not compute.... Does not
compute...."
Ya got me, J.C. I'm actually an alien doppelganger from beyond
Pluto...
|9.12.09 @ 10:08PM|#
I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community
would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.
Well now you're just making shit up, but since you want to go that
way... Fuck you too, Alice.
-jcr
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:09PM|#
Civil rights policies, no. Racial discrimination under
another name (IE, "affrimative action"), definitely.
Yes. But I would note that Affirmative Action could be
considered an economic policy, not a social policy. Or perhaps an
economic policy disguised as social policy.
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:11PM|#
However, i find the libertarian position on education,
healthcare, and other things a bit mean-spirited.
That may be true, but it's my priest's job to change that behavior,
not the president's.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:12PM|#
Is there a pro-American, non-Gramscian, non-NeoCon,
non-corrupt, non-LoonyLibertarian alternative to the
"Parties"?
Yeah. Lyndon LaRouche.
Jordan|9.12.09 @ 10:14PM|#
I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.
I believe that you're a dumbass who doesn't understand
libertarianism.
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:14PM|#
I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community
would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.
Then you are, in fact, completely ignorant about libertarian
philosophy.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:17PM|#
I believe that you're a dumbass who doesn't understand
libertarianism.
That's already been established.
See above:
Matt Welch | September 12, 2009, 7:08pm | #
One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be pointing
out is that big business and big religion have convinced
working-class libertarians they're on the same side.
You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?
How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a
different event when you didn't listen to any of the
speeches?
Perhaps because I never made any such complaint? Also, since you
apparently didn't read it the first time around, note this: "This
is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an
attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful
rendering of what I saw."
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:17PM|#
The name calling is not necessary.
I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same
philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in
anything.
|9.12.09 @ 10:18PM|#
Forget about the civil rights movement. I believe that the
true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that
abolishing slavery was destructive.
I believe that conservatives/libertarians believe that everyone
that was born into welfare is a leach an is a permenant dependent
on the system.
Wow.
FUCK. OFF.
Seriously: Fuck off, and while you're out there doing it, read a
definition of libertarianism.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:19PM|#
I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the
same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in
anything.
Limited government and NO government intervention are
two different things.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:20PM|#
BTW, the civil war itself is a good example of government intervening into interstate commerce.
Jordan|9.12.09 @ 10:21PM|#
I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in anything.
Well you felt wrong. And slavery was of course propped up by the
government itself.
|9.12.09 @ 10:22PM|#
I'm sure there were a few libertarians/objectivists in the crowd
(I'm dead sure in fact), but I would imagine that it was mostly
conservative. There may have been a few conservative Democrats, the
rarest of all political beasts (since the libertarian Democrat has
been proven to be an urban legend).
I don't see what's wrong with the whole "Don't Tread on Me" theme.
I thought that basically summed up the libertarian idea (leave me
be and I'll leave you be). I only wish they had been playing
Metallica's "Don't Tread on Me". That would have been
awesome...
Whatever the number of protesters is, I'll bet dollars to donuts
that it's at least quadrupedal the astroturf crowd that Obama had
in Minnesota.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.12.09 @ 10:22PM|#
The name calling is not necessary.
alice, you started it.
You accused people here of being slavers.
Fankly, they were being nice.
Perhaps you'd like to retract the claim?
|9.12.09 @ 10:22PM|#
"Do libertarians feel that we should have toll booths all over
the place so that ONLY the people that drive on roads should pay
for them?"
Is there a Godwin's Corollary type of thing, where every time
people try to have an intelligent discussion about limited
government, some dolt starts banging on about the roads?
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:25PM|#
I didn't accuse anyone of being slavers. I did belive that
libertarians would prefer no government intervention into an
interstate commerce matter...like slavery. And, not that
libertarians (or any of the people that I'm chatting with) are
slavelords.
I sincerely appologies if reading between the lines made you all
think that I thought you were slavelords.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:26PM|#
Toll roads? Toll roads led to a government created monopoly -
EZPass.
Some states are now leasing the rights to their toll roads to
private companies.
|9.12.09 @ 10:27PM|#
I sincerely appologies if reading between the lines made you
all think that I thought you were slavelords.
I get it. You're a troll. Or you're really, really stupid. Either
way, it's not worth wasting time on you.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:28PM|#
I'm really glad for ezpass. I would not want 11 ezpasses in my car. I like that monopoly.
Jordan|9.12.09 @ 10:29PM|#
I did belive that libertarians would prefer no government intervention into an interstate commerce matter...like slavery.
Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual
liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:29PM|#
I thought a Troll is a contrarian to whatever the topic is to get a rouse out of people. I've had the same opinion since i've been blogging here.
|9.12.09 @ 10:31PM|#
It's more people than I expected, but from that pic and video of
the march I've seen I wouldn't estimate more than 100,000. There's
about 60,000 square meters of Penn Av between Freedom Plaza and the
Capitol and the crowd doesn't look very dense in any video I've
seen. Comparably, the area filled around the Washington Monument
alone during the inauguration was the same. The total crowd for
that was less than 1.8 million, the crowd density was much, much
higher, and that was a small fraction of the total covered
area.
It's somewhat deceiving to try and figure intuitively how many
people are in such a long, narrow column. It's much smaller than
you'd naively guess.
That's just my amateur crowd estimation so suit yourself I guess.
Like I said, a more impressive turnout than I expected.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:31PM|#
Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual
liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.
Thank you Jordon.
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:31PM|#
I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the
same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in
anything.
Then you are, in fact, completely ignorant about
libertarian philosophy.
Conservative are delighted to have government intervention into the
intimate lives of everyday people to make sure that the desired
social norms are enforced.
Libertarians expect there to be a government to provide national
defense. Most libertarians expect there to be a police force to
deal with people that infringe the rights of others.
Try reading a book or maybe wikipedia can at least take the rough
edges off your ignorance.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:32PM|#
Yeah, well you need 11 ezpasses in your car. I have abot a dozen
"violations" because their faulty technology didn't pick up the
transponder in my car. No I have to fight, to prove that I had one
in my car or pay a $25 fee on each violation.
Fuck E-ZPass.
TheKm|9.12.09 @ 10:34PM|#
The picture you're using is a fake. The flag was not flown at half mast today.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:34PM|#
Here in the Metro NYC Area...it would really really really suck
if u didn't have ez-pass. This is unless u don't mind long
lines.
I have many friends that are privacy freaks and are ok with the
lines.
|9.12.09 @ 10:34PM|#
"However, i find the libertarian position on education,
healthcare, and other things a bit mean-spirited."
The most effective way to deliver education and healthcare to
people is through free markets. That is why libertarians favor that
approach.
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:34PM|#
Alice you come here often. You participate in many discussions.
I cannot fathom that you hold such completely bogus beliefs about
fundamental libertarian thought.
Do you just forget it all and start with a blank sheet every time
you come back here?
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:36PM|#
Here is your first lesson Alice.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights,
governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers
from the consent of the governed.
$20ForHeadDontCum|9.12.09 @ 10:37PM|#
please, there are many, many ways to argue w/ our 24ahead
friend without spoofing his username.
But spoofing is more fun!
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:40PM|#
Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual
liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.
Actually , I first thought that I was a libertarian because i was a
social liberal and a fiscal conservative/moderate. However, I find
that when I have argued about the healthcare issue that many of the
people are fundamentalist when it comes to free markets. And, that
free markets is the cure to all.
With the exception of Healthcare, I think I agree with just about
everything that traditional libertarians agree on. I just don't
believe that the free markets will help in TWO things: that is,
healthare and pensions.
I appologies, I was being trollish with some of the things I said
2-nite. I didn't really expect anyone to support the idea of 100%
no government intervention. I was trying to make a point...and I
did a crappy job of doing it.
|9.12.09 @ 10:40PM|#
The name calling is not necessary.
Get bent. You accuse libertarians of advocating slavery, and then
you get huffy about name-calling? Fuck you with Hillary Clinton's
dick.
Tim Cavanaugh|9.12.09 @ 10:40PM|#
I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal
moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.
That's what they all say on the first date. Come back any time.
Orangutan Lime Special|9.12.09 @ 10:42PM|#
Yes, it's about time something is going to be done about the spoofing. I'm sick of having my good name, and the good name of xenophobia itself, be drug through the mud by people talking about autofellatio.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:43PM|#
I have many friends that are privacy freaks and are ok with
the lines.
It's not just about privacy with me. It's about a
private company being able to accuse me of being a criminal (toll
booth runner), when their technology fails, and having to prove my
innocence.
|9.12.09 @ 10:46PM|#
more than this protested against invading Iraq on fictitious
pretenses, and it didn't do any good.
Government size and spending went up more than any other period
during Baby-Bush years. Where were these protesters then? "Our
Taxes"?
Is it better to spend our money destroying someone else's vocuntry,
or saving our own?
why are almost of all of these people white? don't blacks, latinos,
and asians care about their issues, or is this a racism thing?
kinnath|9.12.09 @ 10:47PM|#
With the exception of Healthcare, I think I agree with just
about everything that traditional libertarians agree on. I just
don't believe that the free markets will help in TWO things: that
is, healthare and pensions.
A brutal as it may seem, no one has a god-given unalienable right
to be healthy.
No one has any legitimate right to expect "society" to cough up a
quarter million bucks for life saving treatment if he or she
contracts a life threatening illness.
Yes it's very sad when bad things happen to nice people. But there
is no legitimate government purpose that requires every man, woman,
and child to chip a little bit into a bucket to make things right
when these bad things happen.
There are an infinite number of bad things that can happen to
people. That's life.
|9.12.09 @ 10:47PM|#
The most effective way to deliver education and healthcare
to people is through free markets.
What? You mean health care and education aren't magically different
from all other goods and services? Gee, who knew?
-jcr
|9.12.09 @ 10:48PM|#
I just want to add, some libertarians are indeed
anarchists.
The slavery bit, however was beyond the pale. Offensive
garbage
Oh and I am not white either.
Click \'n Loathe|9.12.09 @ 10:48PM|#
And don't even get me started about the plagiarists claiming that they came up with the idea of asking the tough questions and posting them on YouTube. I was the pioneer! I was at the forefront of the Web 2.0 wars while Matt Welch was trying to get paper clips out of his printer at the LA Times! Don't fuck with the Lonewacko!
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 10:50PM|#
Maybe someone could narrow it down. Is the spoofing coming from Petaluma (something like infosniper.net can tell you)? Perhaps Quincy, IL (aka University of Tennessee North).
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 10:51PM|#
There are an infinite number of bad things that can happen to
people. That's life.
That is a very mean-spirited attitude and I hope it never happens.
That is the only thing keeping me from calling myself a
libertarian. And perhaps I'm not one.
If this is how u people feel, I really hope u don't get ur way on
this one. No offense to anyone. All you guys would have to loose is
a couple of bucks. All the rest of the country would have to loose
is their lives.
Once again, I respectfully disagree. And, I wish the libertarian
position was not so mean-spirited.
Tim Cavanaugh|9.12.09 @ 10:51PM|#
Didn't mean to be flippant, Alice. To respond to this:
I just don't believe that the free markets will help in TWO
things: that is, healthare and pensions.
I'm the libertarian pessimist, so I'll put it to you that for many
problems there are no solutions. Healthcare and pensions don't
exist in nature. Effective healthcare and reliable patronage are
extremely recent developments in human history. To the extent that
some folks see better healthcare performance in Canada or France or
Cuba or other lands, or countries where you get four weeks of
vacation by law, etc., these are just minor tweakings of a quantum
leap in human health and lifespan that began only about a century
ago. (And of course it's open to question whether those countries
really are producing better-than-U.S. results in terms of health
and lifespan -- except in the counries that clearly are not.)
Add to the above that there libertarian optimists can make the
claim that deregulation (such as allowing individuals the same
tax-break for health insurance that is currently available to
corporations) would actually improve the average healthcare
situation.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 10:52PM|#
A brutal as it may seem, no one has a god-given unalienable
right to be healthy.
Every other industrialized nation in the world would
disagree with you.
Fist of Etiquette|9.12.09 @ 10:54PM|#
The music, especially the politicized re-writes of stuff
like "New York, New York," was dreadful even by political
standards.
Ouch for Mark Russell.
|9.12.09 @ 10:58PM|#
I wish the libertarian position was not so
mean-spirited.
What's mean-spirited about advocating that all dealings with our
fellow human beings should be on a voluntary basis?
-jcr
The Internet Company|9.12.09 @ 10:58PM|#
Lonewacko: Our traces indicate that the spoofer is upstairs with the children. Get out of the house, now!
|9.12.09 @ 10:58PM|#
j...sigh. Once AGAIN, see my previous comments above. Some of
here are BLACK BLACKETTY BLACK BLACK BLACK.
I am now using my last wish to make this "protesters are racist"
crap go away...at least on this forum.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 11:03PM|#
... (such as allowing individuals the same tax-break for health
insurance that is currently available to corporations) would
actually improve the average healthcare situation.
An individual tax deduction for healthcare will not help
an individual and here's why:
Every person receives a standard deduction on their income tax
return. That deduction is up around $7,200. Corporations use the
health insurance deduction because they itemize their deductions.
If an individual's itemized deductions are less than the standard
deduction, the healthcare deduction (or any other deduction) is
useless.
radical|9.12.09 @ 11:05PM|#
alice, how's this for mean spirited: i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives. we need more darwinism
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 11:07PM|#
Hey radical, as per your comment:
i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives. we need more
darwinism
And what I'm about to say is clearly trolling:
Would you have a problem if the loses of lives were your children
or your wife ?
24AheadDotCom|9.12.09 @ 11:07PM|#
Someone told me that someone else saw a tweet about an Althouse post from a blogger on another blog that said that Glenn Reynolds posted this vid from today's "party". I haven't watched it yet, let us know.
|9.12.09 @ 11:08PM|#
more than this protested against invading Iraq on fictitious
pretenses, and it didn't do any good.
The way I see it, the main effect of this is that the country-club
Republicans are going to have to go back to pretending that they
care about the scale of the looting for a couple of years, like
they did during the Reagan administration.
-jcr
|9.12.09 @ 11:10PM|#
i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives.
Your wish is already granted. Americans have nearly 100% mortality
by the age of 90.
-jcr
|9.12.09 @ 11:10PM|#
radical, I'd be down with like 90 percent of all males dying. Imagine it - Double D...HAREM MASTER!
24givemyselfhead|9.12.09 @ 11:11PM|#
Ok, I am sorry for using lone handjob's handle. I wont do it any
more. Though let me say this, I always try make sure when using his
name that I sounded like a spoof (i.e. it obviously wasn't him). I
never pretended to be him in order to advance a real argument. But
I will stop.
I do stand by these two points.
1. Lone handjob is a complete fucktard who does perform oral sex on
himself...and...
2. Emus are the porn stars of the animal world, but they tend to be
attention whores.
$20ForHeadDontCum|9.12.09 @ 11:15PM|#
I also heard this video might have something to do with the events in Washington today. I was massaging myself so hard that my vision went blurry about halfway through, maybe you guys can help.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.12.09 @ 11:16PM|#
The picture you're using is a fake. The flag was not flown at half mast today.
It was at < Major Land Grant University in Flyover Country
>.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 11:17PM|#
1. Lone handjob is a complete fucktard who does perform oral
sex on himself...and...
Shit, if I could do that, I'd never leave the house.
|9.12.09 @ 11:19PM|#
I also heard this video might have something to do with the
events in Washington today. I was massaging myself so hard that my
vision went blurry about halfway through, maybe you guys can
help.
Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the
rest of your
pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is
crap is funny?
It's not creative, it's not clever, and it's definitely not
funny.
JB|9.12.09 @ 11:20PM|#
"Glenn Beck is an actual terrorist, and the people attending his
rally in DC tomorrow are al-Qaeda in America"
Then maybe that cunt should buy a clue and move to somewhere he
will feel more comfortable fisting himself up the ass while he
dreams about socialism. Because if it comes to civil war, he won't
just die, he will scream a lot, then die.
Tim Cavanaugh|9.12.09 @ 11:21PM|#
Every person receives a standard deduction on their income
tax return. That deduction is up around $7,200. Corporations use
the health insurance deduction because they itemize their
deductions. If an individual's itemized deductions are less than
the standard deduction, the healthcare deduction (or any other
deduction) is useless.
Can't IRS set it up so the individual can add the insurance
deduction after calculating the deductible -- that is,
even if all your other items came to less than $7,200 you could
still claim the standard deduction and then add the health care
deduction on top of that?
I'm not defending this, by the way. I oppose using the tax code for
behavior modification (though I'm not sure you can tax without
modifying behavior).
JB|9.12.09 @ 11:24PM|#
"It was those Billionaires-for-Bush pranksters"
I ran into those cocksucking bitches at the first DC Tea Party.
They are a bunch of sniveling brats whose mommy and daddy paid for
expensive private colleges in DC and like to take the Volvo and
Land Rover down to protest.
Limousine liberals at their worst. They don't even realize they are
mocking themselves when they dress up in their tuxes. Real
Americans don't have tuxes, you stupid rich limousine liberal
fucks.
|9.12.09 @ 11:26PM|#
Then maybe that cunt should buy a clue and move to somewhere
he will feel more comfortable fisting himself up the ass while he
dreams about socialism.
What do you mean?
|9.12.09 @ 11:33PM|#
Alice, it's odd that you mention pensions. The unfortunate truth is that, in most situations, guaranteeing an employee a lifetime payout is unrealistic. Why should the taxpayers have to foot the bill, just because some companies made unrealistic promises to people who were gullible enough to accept them? If I promise to pay you thousands of dollars a year for thirty years, when you aren't even doing any work for me, and you are shocked (shocked, I tell you!) when I don't actually have the money to do that, why should that be the taxpayers' problem?
JB|9.12.09 @ 11:35PM|#
What do you mean?
The Leftist he/she/its can move to Canada or France or somewhere
else where they can get more socialism. Freedom-loving people don't
have that option and we will make our stand here.
radical|9.12.09 @ 11:38PM|#
the fun begins in earnest on the headcount. left wing media now reporting that police "declined to estimate" the crowd size so whatever the reporter thinks becomes the "official" number... awesome
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 11:38PM|#
I'm not defending this, by the way. I oppose using the tax
code for behavior modification (though I'm not sure you can tax
without modifying behavior).
Well, unfortunately it is currently set up so you must
either take the standard deduction or itemize. I'm not an
accountant, but I believe there would need to be some rewriting of
tax law necessary. Personally, I would like to see the standard
deduction eliminated and the rate adjusted accordingly. The
standard deduction is unfair to small business owners that operate
as a sole proprietorship. The first $7,200 of legitimate business
expenses are essentially useless.
But, then there are those that would prefer a flat tax with no
deductions, and no taxes on businesses. Business taxes are
ultimately paid by the consumer.
|9.12.09 @ 11:39PM|#
I know what you mean, JB. Some of your profanity laced comments
are among the funnier I've read lately.
Make no mistake, I'm what you would call "mostly ready." And I'm
getting more ready by the day. The breaking point will be passed
sooner or later.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.12.09 @ 11:39PM|#
Big Muddy's proposed form 1040 (assumes---but does not
endorse---the need for a 16th amendment tax, and an IRS to collect
it):
1. Enter the name(s) and SSN(s) of all household members:
2. Enter the number of entries in question 1:
3. Total income of all people named in 1 (attach support
documentation):
4. Divide line 3 by line 2:
5. Subtract the deduction (see instructions) from line 4, if the
result is negative enter 0:
6. Multiply line 5 by the tax rate (see instructions):
7. Multiply line 6 by line 2, this is your total tax
liability:
8. Enter any withholding, early payments, or carry over from the
previous tax year:
9. Subtract line 8 from line 7:
10. If the result in line 9 is negative you may expect a refund
approximately N weeks after filing. If the result on line 9 is
positive, cut a check.
11. Sign:
It has only two dials (the deduction and the tax rate). Should cut
the tax code in half, but still leaves the matter of who can
qualify to be a single "household" up in the air. It has no
marriage penalty, since you can only win (as a group, anyway) when
you merge your finances. Makes no distinction between wages and
capital gains either---which might not be the best way to do it,
but I fear handing the politicians too many dials.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 11:44PM|#
Just to clarify. A sole proprietorship essentially means self-employment. Both business and personal finances are the same. When a business is incorporated, the business has its own set of finances and the owner draws a salary from the business. Then, you are essentially paying taxes twice, once for the business, and once for your personal salary.
Xeones|9.12.09 @ 11:45PM|#
EscapedWest, i would add, as an important component of your tax reforms, that the 1040 needs to be filed by the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November. Oh, and no more paycheck withholding. That's right, cut Uncle Sugar a big fat check, then go vote!
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 11:47PM|#
Pirate Jo,
Casa Blanca...my favorate.
I agree. We should have never let corporations like GM be
responsible for the pensions of their employees. The pyramid is
just not big enough. Plus, if the corporation goes broke, these
people will end up on the public dole in one way or another.
That is why I support a publicly funded pension. That is, a pyramid
that includes all workers contributing to a fund for the benefit of
those that retire after some age...like 65. Social Security.
Except, we shouldn't squander the fund...as we have here in the
USA. Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming
crisis would not have been as bad.
alice bowie|9.12.09 @ 11:48PM|#
Just to clarify. A sole proprietorship essentially means
self-employment. Both business and personal finances are the same.
When a business is incorporated, the business has its own set of
finances and the owner draws a salary from the business. Then, you
are essentially paying taxes twice, once for the business, and once
for your personal salary.
Actually, if the business has ZERO retained earnings and passes all
procedes to the personal return, you are ONLY taxed ONCE. Or, setup
an S-Corp.
|9.12.09 @ 11:54PM|#
[i]From my life experience, I'm glad the liberals before me did
what they did. And, I think things are better for all. People, like
myself and may, received public education, public housing and
assistance and are strong members of the middle class. We are
consumers of many goods and pay taxes [/i]
Alice. General I believe liberals in the pursuit of making their
lives more than the proverbial drop in the ocean that it is, steal
from at least two groups of people. First they steal from the
working people and then they give to people with the unconscious
message, "we do not think you can do it." Even if this is not the
intended message, it is what is received and receiving group has
their ability to develop confidence in their competence.
This comes from a white guy who was not honed on a good work ethic,
walked away from things when they became a little hard, felt
unhappy and entitled. The pain of being dependent just happened to
be greater than the fear of being incapable. Unfortunately, I have
a sibling who has not been able to break this and is 38 and lives
with our parents, what an f'n catastrophe.
So NO I completely disagree on the good things liberals have done.
Give someone part of a fish but for god sakes teach them how to
fish, and stand back and watch them do their thing.
DD, I love when I find soul mates and their turn out to be black
guys (and no, not gay).
|9.12.09 @ 11:55PM|#
Alice politicians squander any resources you entrust to them.
That's why a system with individual accounts outside government
control is better. And pensions are just tgtbt which is why defined
contribution plans are better. And IRAs allow people to put their
entire savings into pump and dump scams so the GWB social security
privatization with restricted investment options is better than a
completely IRA based plan.
Unfortunately GWB tried to argue that individual accounts with
restricted investment options were guaranteed to have better
returns than the risk free rate of return, which is nonsense.
Tricky Prickears|9.12.09 @ 11:59PM|#
Actually, if the business has ZERO retained earnings and
passes all procedes to the personal return, you are ONLY taxed
ONCE.
Yeah, but doesn't a business need to retain a certain
amount of working capital?
Tim Cavanaugh|9.13.09 @ 12:00AM|#
Oh, and no more paycheck withholding.
Thank you, Milton Friedman, father of global horror.
|9.13.09 @ 12:00AM|#
"Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming
crisis would not have been as bad."
Why should the Social Security Fund ever have been started in the
first place? Why should anyone be *entitled* to retirement at the
age of 65? If you've worked that many years and haven't managed to
save up anything for yourself, then keep working - it's not anyone
else's fault. People are physically capable of working longer due
to increased lifespans anyway, so it's not the end of the world if
you have to have a part-time job in your 60's or 70's. People
should take care of themselves, based on their own planning,
saving, and decision-making.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.13.09 @ 12:02AM|#
Xeones says:
That's right, cut Uncle Sugar a big fat check, then go vote!
I can get behind that.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:04AM|#
Johnl,
The only reason I argue for a public pension is that the pyramid
would work better if it included everyone in the USA. It has to be
a monopoly...One Pyramid. I've done a lot of math on this and it
appears to be the only thing that would work...along with personal
savings. It doesn't have to be the government in my book. It just
has to be a monopolistic entity that doesn't squander the
funds.
Pyramids get bad names. They are ok. And, they are different from
Ponzi or Madoff Schemes...in which, the PERP squanders the
FUND.
Imagine Year ONE of Social Security:
Fund= (R)evenue - (B)enefitCost
Now, look at Year TWO and beyond
Fund = [ (R) + (I)nterest on Fund ] - B
This works ok as long as B < [R + I].
We are facing a demographic diversity where B will grow. We need
the FUND not only to generate I, but to use as Principal when
needed.
People like Ponzi, Madoff, and the US Government squandered the
fund...so they never had the benefit if (I).
Tim Cavanaugh|9.13.09 @ 12:04AM|#
Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming
crisis would not have been as bad.
How has the Social Security Fund been touched? That's a real
question, not a rhetorical question.
|9.13.09 @ 12:04AM|#
Right on, Publius Speaks. Like you, I don't know what my life would have been like without certain liberal programs. Maybe better, maybe worse. Certainly, the community as a whole would have needed to work harded and cooperate more closely. In the long run, I think we might have been better off...certainly more unified within our own neighborhoods, if not wealthier. Of course, this assumes that we would have made the same advances in race relations without affirmative action. I think we would have, maybe a little more slowly though.
Tricky Prickears|9.13.09 @ 12:06AM|#
Why should the Social Security Fund ever have been started
in the first place?
I thought SS was originally designed to be a "safety
net", not the quasi national pension fund annuity it has turned out
to be.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:06AM|#
I actually agree with you Pirate Jo.
I don't think that I'll ever retire. I'm happy working. I'm going
to work until catastrophic illness sets in or I win the lottery.
Because the way things have been goin' in the last 10 years for
me...I can't save a penny.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:10AM|#
How has the Social Security Fund been touched? That's a real
question, not a rhetorical question.
In the early 80's Reagan decided to pull and accounting scheme
where they started including the fund in the General US Treasury to
show a lower deficit...For the Arms race and some other things.
Every president including Clinton and Obama have done the same
thing. In all fairness to republicans, it was not just simply used
for war...it was used for good things as well.
Either way, they should have never touched it. Now, the same people
are screeming that social security is broke and would need
additional funding from the General Treasury. Well, although we can
no longer afford it, we should have never counted this fund in the
deficit report. We should have kept it holy.
|9.13.09 @ 12:13AM|#
Wow! We had "2 million" on the mall today?? Really???....Now I
won't scream "he lied!" but...Here's a reminder of what 2 million
people looks like on the mall.
http://saysomethingfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/obama-inauguration-crowd2.jpg
OK, If that's an unfair comparison, here's what it looks like to
have half of that total on the mall.
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0asEdv93lDgHB
Finally..Here's what a political rally looks like WITHOUT 6 months
of "free advertisement" by Fox news.
http://www.good.is/post/obamas_biggest_crowd_yet/
Congratulations on your demonstration today...Let the event speak
for itself without blowing the headcount out of proportion.
Tricky Prickears|9.13.09 @ 12:14AM|#
I don't think that I'll ever retire. I'm happy working.
Many of my grandparents and great uncles worked well
into their 80s. They were part of a generation that thought that if
they stopped working, they would die. My Grandmother is 91, and up
until last year, worked 4 days a week as a bookkeeper. Now, she
just works one day a week. She doesn't need to, my Uncle and Mother
will give her all the money she needs to live.
The problem is, many people hate their jobs and can't wait to
retire.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:17AM|#
Yeah, but doesn't a business need to retain a certain amount of
working capital?
In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed. It must be passed
through on Schedule K to your 1040. Therefore, you don't pay the
corporate rate...you pay the personal rate.
When the Corp is closed though, this capital must be passed through
to the owners as a dividend (No payroll taxes apply) and personal
taxes are due.
In a C Corp, it is taxed...but there are many games that can be
played.
In a Sole Proprietorship (Schedule C and SE) it is not taxed
|9.13.09 @ 12:19AM|#
Well Alice, consider this:
If you were going to live on even a modest $25,000 a year for a
25-year retirement, you'd still burn through $625,000. Average
household income is somewhere around the $52K mark, so how do you
think most people are ever going to scrape together that kind of
money for that long of a retirement? And if the vast majority of
people can't do it individually, where is the money supposed to
come from? Thin air? Pyramid schemes don't work because they rely
upon constant, never-ending growth, and our population numbers are
leveling out. The answer is for people to work things out for
themselves. For most of us, that's probably going to mean working
longer than 65.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:19AM|#
I think that if i were a bus driver, a cop, a ditch digger, a
labor worker, etc. I would have to retire.
But, a desk job i think I can do forever.
|9.13.09 @ 12:21AM|#
"Can't IRS set it up so the individual can add the insurance
deduction after calculating the deductible"
If the Congress says they can.
Speaking of the Congress, it would have been nice if the
Republicans had, say, gotten rid of the IRS in the 12 years they
controlled the Congress. Assholes.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:22AM|#
Pirate Jo,
Actually, the population leveling out (demographic diversification
in age) is a phenomenon that the designers of the pyramid took
under consideration...THAT is what the FUND was for. When
originally designed, the pyramid paid for few retirees.
The demographic diversification in age is something that will NOT
last for every.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:22AM|#
correction:
The demographic diversification in age is something that will NOT
last for ever.
Suki|9.13.09 @ 12:23AM|#
Speaking of the Congress, it would have been nice if the
Republicans had, say, gotten rid of the IRS in the 12 years they
controlled the Congress. Assholes.
I readed someplace that a Republican Congress made them be nicer
than they used to be.
Tricky Prickears|9.13.09 @ 12:25AM|#
In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed.
If my business ever picks back up I may look into an
S-Corp.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:27AM|#
Let me make it clear Tricky...In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed at the CORPORATE RATE...still needs to be passed through.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:27AM|#
Look at
http://www.residual-rewards.com/s-corporation-vs-c-corporation.html
Suki|9.13.09 @ 12:28AM|#
ab,
Suki...how would they have paid for War?
Why are you directing that at me? I am Chemistry, not Accounting,
not even voodoo accounting.
vince|9.13.09 @ 12:33AM|#
Alex Pareene single-handedly ruined Gawker. I stopped reading a few weeks ago--just could not take their "white people are the cancer on humanity" ignorance anymore.
|9.13.09 @ 12:35AM|#
Intesting and I'm a libertarian working for the gov't to help people with disabilities pursue employment goals. But I actually go about my job for the demise of my job and waste. Ironic, Obama goes about his job for the demise of capitalism.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 12:39AM|#
Ironic, Obama goes about his job for the demise of
capitalism.
I don't believe that to be true at all.
|9.13.09 @ 12:51AM|#
Name me an adviser around him who is a capitalist. I've been
having my sincere doubts about geitner/berneke.
His mom was communist. His dad was communist. Frank, his mentor was
socialist/communist. Khalid Mosher mentor/confidante was
socialist/communist. Reverend Wright is definitely not capitalist.
Van Jones is communist. Carol Browner is socialist. Pelosi
socialist. Barney Frank progressive socialist. Biden not smart
enough to know what he is. David Axelrod is an astroturfing
socialist. Cass Sunstein facist socialist. Mark Lloyd socialist. He
was elected to Illinois state senate as a member of the New Party
which was a socialist party.
So if it walks like a socialist, and it talks like a socialist,
then he's a capitalist, huh.
|9.13.09 @ 12:54AM|#
And I cannot believe I forgot his techniques are from Sal Alinisky's Rules for Radicals. And Alinisky was not much for the free market
dedicated_dad|9.13.09 @ 12:55AM|#
One group waited up the march-route and methodically counted
people passing. They were over 450k with no end in sight. Best
estimates at this point are 1.25-1.5 MILLION. This may be the
biggest demo in HISTORY.
DD
|9.13.09 @ 12:56AM|#
This is the most important:
"Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's
spending and governing record, though none had protested him. None
expressed trust in Republicans, and most preferred a
"throw-all-the-bums-out" strategy."
The common denominator is: WE ARE FED
UP WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
Democrats deride and minimize these protests at their peril. They
have wakened a sleeping giant of people who have never protested
anything before. And now they are reading Saul Alinsky. Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
Thx, Matt, for your even-handed and insightful libertarian
take.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 1:06AM|#
Republicans are just going to TAX everyone, deny liberties, and
commit procurement scams (like War) to make each other
richer.
Would libertarians prefer that ?
|9.13.09 @ 1:12AM|#
Alice, you ignored my question.
Pointing to the stupidity of others, does not affirm the behavior
in question. The goal is to vote their asses out too.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 1:21AM|#
From what I see of the protest, it does include
libertarians...and a bunch of wackos as well.
I'm not saying the libertarians are wackos...but it has klans
people in there as well.
|9.13.09 @ 1:23AM|#
You still have not gave me reasons you do not think Obama is
trying to end capitalism?
Remember I work with people with mental illness, so I am used to
people evading my questions
|9.13.09 @ 1:27AM|#
That is why I support a publicly funded pension.
If you're a quant, I would really like to know where you work so I
can short them.
-jcr
|9.13.09 @ 1:29AM|#
it has klans people in there as well.
Robert Byrd showed up at the tea party?
-jcr
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 1:59AM|#
Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?
I think it is funny, and I'm a pretty important guy.
Also, three black libertarians in one thread? I'm surprised the
internets haven't collapsed.
|9.13.09 @ 2:15AM|#
"...to a "we're not gonna take it much longer" edge."
Yeah, and the South's gonna rise again, too. I wish some of you bad
asses would either shit or get off the pot. When it does go down,
I'm JB will be there to rant about anal sex.
|9.13.09 @ 2:33AM|#
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" pretty insures that you
will have some fucked-up friends.
I'll pass. Matt, you can put any gloss on this raging mass of
humanity, but all their ex post facto "bashing" of GWB is
bullshit--they were the torture-loving, "bomb 'em and let Allah
sort 'em out" boobs who were the backbone of GWB's support. Give
them their Sarah fucking Palin or whomever and they will resort to
form, and you'll be diddling yourself while you wonder "where did
all those people in the streets go?" The correct answer will be
"home".
Your desire to find in them a principled opposition to the
Obamameister is a naive projection. Theirs is the politics of
resentment and fear. Nothing new there--and nothing good,
either.
jester|9.13.09 @ 3:20AM|#
"Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and
the rest of your
pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is
crap is funny?"
I'm with Art-P.O.G., it is very funny. Like the old running gag
from Vaudeville, but better.
And it is refreshing that this site is no holds barred- like a
libertarian site should. Mock and be mocked.
Besides Lonewacko and Donderooooo keep coming back for more.
Really, they must enoy it-the negative attention- just like any
total loser would.
jester|9.13.09 @ 3:22AM|#
The Internet Company | September 12, 2009, 10:58pm | #
Lonewacko: Our traces indicate that the spoofer is upstairs with
the children. Get out of the house, now!
And this was hilarious!
jester|9.13.09 @ 3:46AM|#
"they were the torture-loving, "bomb 'em and let Allah sort 'em
out" boobs who were the backbone of GWB's support"
I'd say many of them still are judging by the e-mails I get from
the other-than-here Obama-hatin' crowd (and some here as
well).
I tell you it is difficult for most people to see other than
left/right, on/off, black/white, etc. It is hard-wired into our
brains and it takes a lot of work to overcome it.
|9.13.09 @ 3:47AM|#
Is there a Godwin's Corollary type of thing, where every
time people try to have an intelligent discussion about limited
government, some dolt starts banging on about the roads?
WTH!??!
First you tell me i can't call everyone i disagree with Hitler now
we can't talk about the roads!?!?
I like the talk about roads.
LAME!
jester|9.13.09 @ 3:53AM|#
But many (some, I dunno) of them were not Bush supporters as well. Hopefully, many (who were Bush supporters) will overcome their bigot nature, or at least put it at low priority and concern themselves with freedom and treasure.
jtuf|9.13.09 @ 3:53AM|#
Henry,
I went to the Greater NYC 912 Project petition drive to audit the
Federal Reserve a few weeks ago. The other guys circulating
petitions were good folks who were genuinely concerned about an
over reaching government
jtuf|9.13.09 @ 3:57AM|#
So this month we saw a czar appointed by Obama revealed as a 9/11 truther and a handful of birthers at a rally of over 100,000. The mainstream media hurries the czar's unpopular views through the media cycle but harps on the unpopular views of ordinary citizens at a protest. So much for speaking truth to power.
|9.13.09 @ 4:01AM|#
I'm not saying the libertarians are wackos...but it has
klans people in there as well.
I don;t know if Alice is a spoofer or if she is legit....
If she is legit I think it is a sign that this is soon going to be
the full party line of the left.
Average Citizen - "I think taxes should be lower and the bank bail
outs are a bad idea"
Lefty Citizen - "Racist!!!"
Do they honestly think this is resonating? Can't they see how doing
this will make them hated? I don't know i have always thought the
left were idiots on the economy but i also thought they were pretty
good at manipulating their message to be more palatable to the
general public.
Don't they realize that America elected a black president, and
calling everyone a racist every 5 seconds is going to blow up in
their face horribly?
I hate to say it...but i would actually like to hear what joe has
to say about this.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:05AM|#
It is funny but the last discussion I had about politics with a
self-professed Liberal, once I volunteered that I was a libertarian
in philosophy, he brought up roads. It is almost a knee-jerk
reaction, a cliche really.
I replied that the Constitution provides for them and that there
are much larger issues
that I put priority on.
Roads are very important. Northeast Native Americans used burns to
clear passage. That's why there was no 'Ohio Trail' like there was
an Oregon Trail. One could literally drive his wagon through open
parkland all the way to the Ohio Valley.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:10AM|#
"If she is legit"
Why are you so sure it is a she? My take was that the handle was a
melding of Alice Cooper and David Bowie, two 70s glam rockers.
Nixon|9.13.09 @ 4:13AM|#
Great report, Matt. Thanks for giving the info to us straight, which is a rare feat in today's highly-partisan environment.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:23AM|#
"I hate to say it...but i would actually like to hear what joe
has to say about this."
I hear the gentle voices calling ole Joe and I hate to say that
just around the time I decided to become a permanent blogger here
at reason I was still working on a handle. Using 'Qt. Jester', I
questioned him on his own race obsession during the great NYPost
Monkey-is-it-Obama controversy and he announced his departure. Too
bad. I had sparred with him before as he was the default Liberal. I
remember that Warty or someone commented on my overbearing
metaphor. 'Beat it to a pulp', he said.
I did and I feel bad because I can't be here everyday like he
was.
Tony|9.13.09 @ 4:30AM|#
including not a few that equated czars with Soviet Communism
Yeah this is why one of the more common adjectives describing the
Beckites is "historically illiterate."
Seriously, this guy is a monologue of revolution fomenting, and
nobody, not a single person at this event or Glenn Beck, can
articulate a specific reason why the Obama administration is the
absolute breaking point, that finally an unacceptable level of
tyranny has arrived. The enemy is always known--their crimes are
vague, though. I think more than race or anything it mostly has to
do with people who find it unacceptable to the point of hysteria
that people who don't match their demographic and values are
running things.
BakedPenguin|9.13.09 @ 4:30AM|#
Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?
Tom, assuming you're not a Lonewacko sockpuppet, but I hate to
break it to you: no one at Urkobold spoofs posters - in the sense
that we write under their names - ever. We have no problem calling
them out as the assholes they are under the same handles we always
write under. At least two of us spoke up against it when the main
target was Eric Dondero.
It's funny that you (ostensibly) tried to reason nicely with
Lonewacko in another thread, and he bitch slapped you for it. Yet,
you're lovingly back here, begging for more. I guess it's cheaper
than paying for a dominatrix, anyway.
Urkobold was created exactly because of assholes
like Lonewacko. Jerks like him who don't come here to engage in any
real conversation, but either to troll, or to flog their own hobby
horse position. As much of a problem as I have with some of the
comments Alice Bowie (joshua - Alice Bowie is an old Cheech &
Chong character) made on this thread (and others), I believe he's a
real person with views I disagree with. Because of this, I won't
make fun of him on Urkobold. Lonewacko is an anti-Mexican,
anti-immigration dicksore who comes to this site to insult people,
demand that almost all immigration be stopped (a position that the
vast majority of people here disagree with), and then cry like a
little bitch when people don't treat him with kid gloves.
Having said all that, if you don't like Urkobold, don't fucking
read it. That should be easy for you, just hold your lips
together.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:36AM|#
Some years ago I read Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club. It
is an excellent history of the Progressive Movement and its
ideological founding from the perspective of more an admirer than a
naysayer. (I think it's healthier to read history that way vs. Ann
Coulter's view.)
So what would joe say? I think reading this book will tell you. And
you will always know what joe would say.
BruceM|9.13.09 @ 4:37AM|#
Every single one had unkind words to say about George W.
Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested
him.
They're just racists conceding something after the fact to seem
consistent. None protested Bush because Bush wasn't a stinking
nigger. And they wouldn't be protesting if Joe Biden were
president.
How many black people were at this Fox News rally? 1% maybe? 1% of
any minority is always self-hating or too dumb to realize they're
associating with people who hate them. Hell, you'd find that 1% of
the KKK is black if you looked under the sheets.
Either these southern white people angry at a black president are
historically illiterate extreme hypocrites, or they're racists. I
suppose reasonable people can disagree, but to me, Occam's Razor
leads me to think racism is the more simple explanation, and thus
the correct one.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:41AM|#
Tony
Glenn Beck (why two ns) is a strawman here. Go to the beginning of
this monster thread (kinda sounds tractor-pull exciting) and feel
the Glen(nnnn) love.
jester|9.13.09 @ 4:51AM|#
Thanks BP,
I feel dumber now because I grew up on Cheech and Chong. To add
isult to myself I coulda googled the fucking name.
At least I knew it was a made-up name and I may be right about its
origin. Booby prize nonetheless.
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:00AM|#
"And they wouldn't be protesting if Joe Biden were
president."
I will disagree on that. It's about the team on/off switch not the
race on/off switch.
People went ape shit over HillaryCare and soon a guy named (She
turned me into a) Newt was the Speaker.
Your sense of history is wanting, to be nice.
|9.13.09 @ 5:05AM|#
joshua - Alice Bowie is an old Cheech & Chong
character
Yeah that does not convince me....Unless you are the spoofer.
I have had people say I am a fake person because my last name
"Corning' meant some such thing.
The possibility of a real person sharing a name with a cheech and
chong character is not out of the question.....or more likely a
real person choosing a cheech and chong character as their handle,
but is expressing their real views.
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:11AM|#
"...their crimes are vague"
Bush, Obama, bankrupting the treasury is vague in a sense.
Wars, bailouts, entitlements: that is vague as well.
If you want unvague, visit all the transparency websites. It's all
so richly unvague there.
Ibuprofin|9.13.09 @ 5:13AM|#
But you are all racist. This guy says so.
http://quichemoraine.com/2009/08/maybe-we-should-have-elected-a-white-president-after-all/
BakedPenguin|9.13.09 @ 5:14AM|#
jester - he'd mentioned it previously, but I wouldn't have
remembered except for seeing a video of "Earache My Eye".
(Fun fact - Tommy Chong had a top 40 hit - "Does
Your Mama Know About Me" - in 1965 with Bobby Taylor & the
Vancouvers.
joshua - I wasn't saying the person's real name was Alice Bowie, I
was saying that I believe there is a real person behind the posts.
Also, in case you missed my note to "Tom", I don't spoof, and I
don't troll.
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:15AM|#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earache_My_Eye
c'mon Joshua Corning. BP is right. Repent!
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:23AM|#
BP,
Funny enough, your post came just as I had googled Wikipedia on
Cheech n Chong to show JoshCorn to acquiesce. I know the entire
dialogue/song "An earache my eye" but still don't remember Alice
Bowie. The strange collision of names struck me more from my
knowledge of pop music history. I am going to see my shrink for his
opinion: Ch y Ch en la juventud vs. amazing memory of pop
stars.
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:40AM|#
Goddamn, well I declare, have you seen the like?
Their walls are built of cannonballs, their motto is
Don't tread on me-
Jerry Garcia vs the crowd.
jester|9.13.09 @ 5:56AM|#
Counted everyone in Matt's picture (it's why I've been up so
late/early). Total: 2.1038654 million.
That means selling snake flags (intead of snake oil) should boost
GDP at least .00098765%
|9.13.09 @ 6:27AM|#
If the Billionaires for Bush crew were a conservitive Republican group mocking a 1.5 million rally of Code Pinkers, ACORN employees, SEIU members and Nation of Islam nutjobs, what would their odds be of a) being tolerantly allowed to protest and b) getting home unlynched?
|9.13.09 @ 6:43AM|#
Shannon Love's take on Leftists (9/12 8:11 p.m.) should be a blog post all its own.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 6:43AM|#
How many black people were at this Fox News rally? 1% maybe? 1% of any minority is always self-hating or too dumb to realize they're associating with people who hate them. Hell, you'd find that 1% of the KKK is black if you looked under the sheets.
@ BruceM: See, this is the kind of arrogance that really pisses me off. You do realize you're being condescending to black people with these comments, right? I think you're being disrespectful to right-wingers and libertarians in trying to say that they're typically hateful of blacks, too. But I digress, you're a left-winger so you couldn't possibly be a bigot.
jester|9.13.09 @ 6:48AM|#
Andrew, amigo
What is the point of the comparison? That your team has been
unjustly ridiculed? Is it a surprise that the left media hates the
right media and vice-versa?
I am sure Hannity will answer your question soon,
unsolicited.
From past experience and from fwds I receive from non-libertarian
GOPers I can't decide as to how righteous this demonstration was
vis-a-vis a disingenuous one by the left. Maybe it was also
'collectively' unrighteous.
Fighting fire with fire often leaves everyone burned. Maybe a bad
metaphor for politics. (Unless it means all politicians were burned
to death.)
My advice: never let an 'at least I wasn't as bad' approach govern
your actions or ideology. If your gonna go that way, might as well
go all the way. If you're gonna be a turd, you might as well be a
floater.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 6:50AM|#
VAHighlander,
I agree, but Shannon Love forgot to point out that all those
ordinary people are racist. ;)
|9.13.09 @ 6:58AM|#
"The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply..."
Gail Collins is, by that statement, an utter fool.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:04AM|#
Which of the following are black:
a)Dravidians
b)Solomon Islanders
c)Dani tribesman
d)Tasmanian aboriginals
e)Pygmies
f)Hottentots
g)Kobe Bryant (aka the Mamba)
h)Death
i)Profits
j)Jack
k)Out
l)most Bantu speakers
m)sea
n)Jack
o)Karen
p)Day-of-the-Week
q)ball
r)list
s)History Month
t)sea bass
|9.13.09 @ 7:09AM|#
Considering that none of you--regular posters, editors,
contributors, trolls, spoofers, griefers, and random whiners sent
here by visions of The Chosen One--seem to have the balls and
commitment to your ideals to say it yourself, I will bravely step
forward and proudly proclaim:
I love tacos, too.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 7:15AM|#
I apologize for my snark, though. I'm sure BruceM has done the research and discovered that any black person who isn't a democrat is self-loathing.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:16AM|#
True enough,10, money policy is the core issue. It breaks up many a marriage.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 7:17AM|#
And I don't think we have to ask the commenter formerly known as "mmm...tacos" how he feels about MexicanCuisine.
Andrew Lale|9.13.09 @ 7:23AM|#
Jester: My point was obvious. When it comes to civility, having a sense of humour, allowing satire to exist even if its aimed at me there is only one side in it. What happened to counter-protestors who showed up at anti-war demos? Hectored, spat on, shoved, banners and placards ripped off them and destroyed. Did any of that happen to Billionaires for Bush? Er, no.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:27AM|#
'I'm sure BruceM has done the research and discovered that any
black person who isn't a democrat is self-loathing.'
C'mon Uncle Tom is the established term. Stop trying to enrich an
already dangerously inflationary vocabulary. Yikes! The English
language is almost libertarian since acceptance coincides with
usage.
Where are the Culture Ministers when we need them?!!!
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:28AM|#
Anyone else notice that Reason now forces you into Preview mode
before you send your message?
It happened overnight. I swear. But it's creepy.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:34AM|#
"What happened to counter-protestors who showed up at anti-war
demos?"
Dunno, but they were on my side. I never went to Washington or
Idaho, but my peers could attest that I have annoyingly been
against Afghanistan Invasion, Iraq Invasion, Privacy Invasion from
the getgo.
If you're lookin' for love on that position, this is the place. Big
Kiss!
and
OXen
jester
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 7:34AM|#
jester,
You'll have to go after Aaron MacGruder, too. Uncle Ruckus is way
funnier than Uncle Tom (or Uncle Ben).
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:36AM|#
Q: Where are the grapes of wrath stored?
A: On the library shelf under Steinbeck.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:46AM|#
Andrew,please
I am ignorant about Billionaires for Bush. I 'learned' about them
in this thread and after several input interruptions to google or
wiki other ignorances, I still haven't nor will I try to understand
Billionaires for Bush, unless you or someone else tells me or even
suggests they have been misrepresented. I think I know their
shtick. It ain't aimed at someone like me so I have ignored
it.
Go buy a tuxedo rental.
jester|9.13.09 @ 7:49AM|#
This is a test. Only a test.
Anyone else notice that Reason now forces you into Preview mode
before you send your message?
It happened overnight. I swear. But it's creepy.
Okay! I'm not crazy (but drunk, yep)
Christine|9.13.09 @ 7:51AM|#
Interesting. By the time I saw those dressed-to-the-nines
marchers (around 1pm, I think), there were only about 8 of them,
they had ditched their sign, and were telling people they were
dressed as "The Czars", not "Billionaires for Bush".
Not sure what was up with that but they were amusing anyway.
Click on my name to see the photos I took yesterday. (Didn't get
the BFB/Czars people because my CF card was full by then).
smartass sob|9.13.09 @ 7:51AM|#
Me too. Soft tacos with tuna.
Nah. Fish tacos with grilled Talapia and shredded cabbage, hot
sauce etc.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 7:52AM|#
It's "Battle Hymn of the Republic" NOT "Glory Hallelujah."
I learned something new today.
@|9.13.09 @ 8:03AM|#
Speaking of ACORN, the Census Bureau has severed all ties with the pimps, er, "community organizers." This has nothing to do with protests, Glen Beck, embarrassing video stings, ongoing fraud investigations, or anything at all.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:06AM|#
'You'll have to go after Aaron MacGruder, too.'
That will certainly involve effort. I am much too busy drinking. I
am a Union Man for god's sake! heh, heh.
@|9.13.09 @ 8:10AM|#
Just went to washingtonpost.com to check out their coverage of the big event. Evidently it never happened!
|9.13.09 @ 8:14AM|#
Well first of all, you left out our state. We had about 100 of us from Oklahoma.(That I know of.)Second of all, are you kidding me ? You didn't see thousands of Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion signs,buttons and stickers virtually everywhere? I was there from 9:00 till 5:00 (aproximatly) and I saw PLENTY of social conservative stuff. Birther stuff too. The four of us who rode up here were all birthers, as were probably most of the Oklahoma delegation. (Depending on what you meant by "birther") The reason you didn't see much "Birther" stuff was because most people regard that ship as having already sailed, and there are more imminent battles to fight. Oklahoma is working on making it impossible to get on our state's ballot unless an original birth certificate is shown and it must be signed by a witness to the event, not a government official claiming the "event" happened.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:16AM|#
Did Double D prove his cred to you? How easy was that? Did it
make you feel good that a black man was prowlin' the site?
Well. Fuck you. This site is cool because I don't know who the fuck
you are. You can make any shit up about yourself and I wouldn't
know.
If Double D says he's black, I don't give a shit, because for all I
know he's Lonewacko spoofing us (though I know that's not true
because Lonewacko ain't smart enough to do that). I will judge DD
on his comments. But he did divulge he was black. That's his bad.
Don't hate him for it. Just sayin', bad policy.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:26AM|#
Mad Max (aka Diogenes),
Didn't know you were from Oklahoma. I should know by now, but I
don't remember. Yes abortion was a huge issue for you and a lot of
others. I am sure you can't wait to share.
That OK State lost last night and Oklahoma lost to that scandalous
Mormon team last week, plus a loss for Notre Dame surely has you in
a tizzy.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:30AM|#
'to get on our state's ballot unless an original birth
certificate is shown'
You are certainly kidding. This is the most ridiculous waste of
time and money I have seen since...er...the last floor debate in
Congress. But if you are proud of that comparison , so be it.
saneandhappy|9.13.09 @ 8:35AM|#
YOU RADICALS ARE ALL CRAZY!!! YOU ARE MARCHING ON OUR PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK. END OF STORY.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 8:40AM|#
You must be kidding. I welcome as many black people as possible
to the libruhtarian thang. It's like seeing other black people at a
metalcore concert.
Also, I have a mustache.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:44AM|#
I think if Rodgers & Hammerstein were alive today, they
would need to rework the musical for Oklahoma.
'Poor Judd's a (Mental) Case', 'Surrey with a fringe riding in it',
'I can't say no to the GOP', 'The Farmer and the Cowman should
demand a trade war', 'Many a New Deal','People Will Say We are
Wack', etc.
jester|9.13.09 @ 8:52AM|#
BECAUSE HE IS BLACK.
peeps votin' 4 him
musta bin on crack.
Satisfied?
Now go fuck off s&h
you green stamp of the idiot left
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 9:05AM|#
Nah. Fish tacos with grilled Talapia and shredded cabbage, hot sauce etc.
Do you tilt them towards your face first or eat them normally?
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 9:20AM|#
Why are you so sure it is a she? My take was that the handle was a
melding of Alice Cooper and David Bowie, two 70s glam
rockers.
I'm a 44yo short, bald, and funny looking hispanic guy that looks
white that was born in a latin american country and came here when
i was 11. I was born in a 3rd world, raised in a ghetto, and now
work in investment banking and make pretty good money. I'm very
grateful and love America. However, pure Americans resent me and my
kind as I did take advantage of what the 'great society' had to
offer. And now, I pay a little less than $109,000 per year in TAXES
(including prop tax, fed, state, fica, medicare, etc.).
I'm a social liberal and a fiscal moderate. I believe in free
markets but I don't believe that I'm a libertarian since I due
support many socialist concepts such as socialized pension,
healthcare, police departments, and education. These are the ONLY
things that I believe in socializing. I feel that the free market
is the way to go for everything else.
Alice Bowie is a character from cheech-and-chong. You can click on
my link and see it.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 9:28AM|#
I'm a 44yo short, bald, and funny looking hispanic guy that looks white that was born in a latin american country and came here when i was 11
Oh, I always figured you had long black hair and animal grace.
alice bowie|9.13.09 @ 9:35AM|#
Oh, I always figured you had long black hair and animal
grace.
I did...at one point.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 9:42AM|#
jester, you like the whole...anonymity aspect of the internet.
Would you say you liked
Ultimate Anonymity?
Suki|9.13.09 @ 9:43AM|#
jester,
I love pink tacos.
Something we share, but I have had to swear off of them. Monogamy
with a guy and whatnot.
All,
Has anybody done the Gaza question yet? Everything else sounds like
it has been covered.
|9.13.09 @ 9:50AM|#
Interesting comments above. As a child of a military family with a son in military service, I personally liked GWB. Still do, though I disliked his fiscal policies and those of his administration. Never doubted his love for, or commitment to, this country. Voted for McCain because I liked Palin and he was the lesser of two evils compared to Obama--and no, it didn't have anything to do with race. I wouldn't care if Obama was purple. He's a SOCIALIST, and he surrounds himself with advisors who are communists/socialists, for heaven's sake! Had I been able to, I would have been in DC this weekend. We need to clean house.
Suki|9.13.09 @ 9:52AM|#
Ok, ok, I will ask the Gaza question.
Where would you rather live? In Gaza or between the cheeks of
Obama's ass?
jester|9.13.09 @ 9:59AM|#
kidsmom,
TMI
Suki,
TMI
Suki,
not a choice I'll ever have to make. Invalid question.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 10:05AM|#
jester,
I cried during A.I.*? TMI?
There are also about 3 or 4 other movies I cried during, but can't
remember any of them right now except for Glory.
alice bowie,
Still, has the fly ever tried to break your balls?
|9.13.09 @ 10:10AM|#
Sorry if someone addressed this statement already, but I about
snorted coffee out my nose:
"I did belive that libertarians would prefer no government
intervention into an interstate commerce matter...like slavery." -
Alice Bowie
Um, only the most calloused of cynics would call slavery an
"interstate commerce matter." On the contrary, it is a human
liberty matter, something libertarians are intimately concerned
with.
Most libertarians would agree that government does have a
few limited roles that ought to fill. Ensuring liberty is (at least
in principle) one of those things.
jester|9.13.09 @ 10:17AM|#
ART-P.O.G.,
yes, of course, TMI.
keep your personal life to yourself. I really want to respect
you.
smartass sob|9.13.09 @ 10:20AM|#
@Art-P.O.G.
Do you tilt them towards your face first or eat them
normally?
I dunno - normally, I guess....like a hotdog, starting at one end.
Why? We are talking about food, right?
Suki|9.13.09 @ 10:21AM|#
jester,
are you actually newer than me here? the Gaza question is a running
joke started by MNG, but he wasn't joking while everybody else was
laughing.
Suki|9.13.09 @ 10:23AM|#
I dunno - normally, I guess....like a hotdog, starting at
one end.
Ah, sausage analogies for sexual innuendo are the only ones that
will apply to me forever more of my days with beloved boyfriend.
Sigh.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 10:27AM|#
Why? We are talking about food, right?
Sorry, my mind always goes taco---->soft taco----> sex-act-that-shall-go-unnamed.
Gyro Captain|9.13.09 @ 10:29AM|#
They always underestimate and underreport the size of the crowd at the March For Life, too. Plus they should add the number of all the fetuses in the country who can't march because they're held hostage in the womb.
smartass sob|9.13.09 @ 10:30AM|#
Not with cabbage and hot sauce, dude...especially not hot sauce. ;-)
Basement dweller|9.13.09 @ 10:34AM|#
John C. Randolph | September 12, 2009, 10:00pm
install slashcode
NO.
|9.13.09 @ 10:36AM|#
Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is. Without talk radio boosting this rally, there is no way that many people would have showed up. Our local talk guys can whip up a rally of a few thousand at any time.
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 10:43AM|#
STOP! Memory lane is full of sharp stones and broken glass!
So you get severe tire damage driving down memory lane? :)
Plus they should add the number of all the fetuses in the country who can't march because they're held hostage in the womb.
I think this is tongue-in-cheek, but even if not it's funny as hell.
jester|9.13.09 @ 11:06AM|#
"jester,
are you actually newer than me here? the Gaza question is a running
joke started by MNG, but he wasn't joking while everybody else was
laughing."
I have been around for say five years, but I take vacations,
sometimes long ones. So I prolly missed the MNG thing although I am
familiar with MNG. Is Lefiti still around? I always thought MNG and
Lefiti were the selfsame.
jester|9.13.09 @ 11:07AM|#
now let's see if talk radio can actually wake up Americans instead of stoke partisan fires.
MNG|9.13.09 @ 11:09AM|#
I don't know what is more foolish:
1. Believing Suki is a female (female libertarians exist only in
Libertopia where they live alongside unicorns [privately owned
unicorns of course who are therefore plentiful and not endangered
as property owners carefully guard their well being])
2. Believing Suki has a mind capable of post-middle school humor or
thought
MNG|9.13.09 @ 11:16AM|#
jester
The "Gaza question" came about from one of the hundred thousand
threads that Moynihan posted about how Venezula or Cuba were
hellholes needing to be immediately be invaded and occupied
(Moynihan supported the Iraq War in its early days when he knew he
kind of had to in order to suck at the right-leaning teat) but
refused to offer nary a bit of criticism of the human rights and
property abuses committed by Israel in Gaza and the Occupied
Territory (in fact Moynihan has gone on AIPAC funded junkets but
more importantly knows that any criticism of Israel will
immediately lose you those right-leaning folks mentioned
above).
So I said look, who here would rather live in Gaza or the West Bank
than Venezula? No sane informed person would. My point was
made.
But right leaning people really go frothy at the mouth when you
mention criticism of Israel, concern for the human and property
rights of Palestinians in any way is a terrible offense that only
an evil or foolish person would engage in, so hence the running
joke from the right leaning 14 year old boy section. What's funny
about it is that Suki is someone who yearns even more pathetically
to just be accepted by the right-leaning crowd here, s/he
obviouslyu knows jack or cares about politics, but tries to say the
"cute" things that will curry favor with that crowd.
At least Moynihan is well read.
MNG|9.13.09 @ 11:21AM|#
Moynihan regularly referenced reports by Human Rights Watch
about the shabby state of such rights in Venezula. I'm a member of
HRW and while, yes, we work hard to condemn the thuggish actions of
Chavez there I also know that HRW has plainly documented as bad or
worse human, property and economic rights violations committed by
Israel (at gunpoint) in dealing with the Occupied Territories. Yet
no word of criticism from Moynihan.
I linked the HRW annual reports for the Occupied Territories and
Venezula and said "who would choose to live in the former?" My
point being that if it is worse there, why the silence from
Moynihan on the former and the constant soapboxing on the
latter?
Suki|9.13.09 @ 11:22AM|#
Aw, MNG, you are making me blush?
Where would you rather live? In Gaza or between the cheeks of
Obama's ass?
We all can plainly see his answer to that one without him
answering.
Suki|9.13.09 @ 11:25AM|#
Aw, MNG, you are making me blush?.
Fixed before MNG refutes all of my arguments with a punctuation
correction. Whew!
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 11:26AM|#
I always thought MNG and Lefiti were the selfsame.
Not even close. If Lefiti ever makes a lucid, rational argument it will be his first one. None of the regular leftists here will clame that fella (Lefiti).
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 11:29AM|#
now let's see if talk radio can actually wake up Americans instead of stoke partisan fires.
That would be something. I'm a fan of Tavis Smiley, but I'm trying to think of the last talk radio I listened to other than NPR (and NPR is very good IMO).
Tom Perkins|9.13.09 @ 11:41AM|#
@ alice bowie
It widely known you are an ignorant liar, but not every one here
might know this is one of your lies.
"In the early 80's Reagan decided to pull and accounting scheme
where they started including the fund in the General US Treasury to
show a lower deficit...For the Arms race and some other
things."
LJB began the unified budgeting, and there never has been an
account from which only Socialist Insecurity checks could be
cut.
It has always been a Ponzi scheme and a slush fund for
Congress.
Suki|9.13.09 @ 11:45AM|#
It has always been a Ponzi scheme and a slush fund for
Congress.
It's time that people stop trashing Ponzi. He had a really cool car
and a dreamy house!
jester|9.13.09 @ 11:52AM|#
Thanks for the update MNG, I think. But really, there's no
country I'd rather live in than the united states, but i criticize
it all the time. If you are familiar with the tragedy King Lear, I
think you'd understand the trouble you get into when you have to
compare and then declare love. Criticism is good and it is usually
selective to the parts not liked. It doesn't mean that you don't
see some sort of upside. So your analogy is essentially a false
one.
As for Suki's sex/sexual orientation, it is not of interest to me.
If I was looking for a hookup I wouldn't be at reason.
|9.13.09 @ 11:56AM|#
why the silence from Moynihan on the former and the constant
soapboxing on the latter?
I can't speak for him, but I just realized that there are dozens of
human rights violations on which you have failed to comment, at
least to my knowledge. For our benefit, would you mind making a
comprehensive list, offering your thoughts on each? Then no one
would be able to accuse you of the same.
|9.13.09 @ 12:07PM|#
Just to make it clear ABC NEVER said the cowd was 2 million
people:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=8558055
Bingo|9.13.09 @ 12:19PM|#
Does anyone really think its possible to bring meaningful reform to DC anymore?
E. Joyce|9.13.09 @ 12:31PM|#
Definitions: fascism: --a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Virtually impossible to be one while trying to get two different parties to behave like adults and work as a team. socialism: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state. Virtually impossible to keep trying to make sure you keep the house you own right now, keep the banks from taking it away from you and be a socialist at the same time. That would be an oxymoron. Communism: 1) forced version of socialism OR as defined in Little Rock. Arkansas while Eisenhower was President and likely how the birthers and teabaggers define it today, which is their real issue: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg
|9.13.09 @ 12:41PM|#
It was not Glenn Beck's protest. It was America's protest! And it is really starting to piss me off that he and others are starting to claim this as fact. Talking about rewriting history!
Art-P.O.G.|9.13.09 @ 12:43PM|#
E. Joyce: those people were morons. What's your point again? That wasn't exactly lucid.
|9.13.09 @ 1:13PM|#
These people had only two major beefs with GWB:
immigration
the "bailouts" when he was the lamest of lame ducks
Obviously I agreed with their bitching about the latter, but this
"I disagreed with GWB!" blabber from them is pure after the fact
bullshit.
You can romanticize them into throwbacks to the American
Revolution, but if many of them had their way it would be more
French, despite their embrace of "freedom fries".
Sorry, I am in no hurry to make common cause with an angry mob of
disproportionately evangelical whites. I have been around these
types all my life and find them repulsive. If you want to adopt
some bullshit egalitarianism to romanticize them, well go ahead.
Most demagogues do, so you won't be alone.
Neu Mejican|9.13.09 @ 1:37PM|#
E. Joyce,
Wait, are you saying that Obama is not a fascist?
Hyperbole among protesters attempting to demonize their
opposition...unheard of.
|9.13.09 @ 2:18PM|#
Alice Bowie,
Socialized pension, healthcare, police departments, and education
can all be effectively handled by the state.
In fact, to some extent all of those are.
Most libertarians leaning conservatives, support the original
intentions of the constitution and believe the federal government
should play no role in any of those things.
So supporting a state hand in those things is not a litmus test to
the conservative movement. What you have to ask yourself, is WHO do
you want providing those functions.
Do you want your state and local government to run social services,
or do you want the federal government to run social services.
The constitution clearly states that powers not specifically
mentioned are left to the states. I am a big states right believer.
You want socialized medicine, legalized pot, or a chicken in every
pot? Talk to your governor.
|9.13.09 @ 2:25PM|#
jester | September 13, 2009, 5:26am | #
Joshua Corning vs Makers of Ambien
I have no idea what this means..
If it is an insult i say go fuck yourself
If it is a joke i say i don;t get it
if it is praise then i say ty but i don;t really deserve it
MNG|9.13.09 @ 4:12PM|#
Suki
I realize to one with your capacities there are two kinds of
people: those who criticize everything Obama does and those who are
"up his ass", and that people with your capacities, upon meeting
someone who does any defending of Obama, though also criticizing
him often, not falling into those two neat categories, must go into
the "up his ass" category. Of course, I also realize that to one
with your capacities "pull my finger" is the height of wit and
humor...
jester
If you livein country A and criticize country B for stated reasons
C, and country E is just as much as or worse of an offender on
reason C, but you never criticize them, then I think it is unfair
to ask "WTF?"
Of course, when B is the current boogeyman of the right and E is
the current darling, and the person doing the criticizing panders
to the right, then it all makes some sense, right?
|9.13.09 @ 4:50PM|#
Thanks episiarch, I wondered who the group that put Obama over
the top in the popular vote was.
If the police have really declined to give an estimate of the crowd
for the rally, does that tell us anything?
Tim Cavanaugh, In 1981, under Reagan, Congress passed legislation
allowing borrowing from the Social Security funds.
If what Mr. Wilson said to Mr. Obama is to be considered deplorable
and an apology demanded, then what Mr. Obama said to those of us
who oppose his healthcare fiasco should be considered the same way
and he should apologize to us.
In the first 6-1/2 months of this administration, Mr. Obama was out
of this country 14 times and accomplished little more than family
vacations which included what was the equivalent of stopping by to
say hello to relatives, but nothing achieved as far as his job was
concerned. His 32 czars, many of whom don't know up from down and
are as questionable as the people some of the bloggers refer to,
are doing all of his work. Now there is talk or running Hillary
again and I am neither a republican nor a democrat, but when our
choices come down to a product of Chicago politics and someone
whose lies and corruption are well documented all over the
internet, in books and by the media as it occurred (who
conveniently ignored all of it in the last election and probably
will again). I can say to Michelle:"For the first time, I am
ashamed to be an American".
hmm|9.13.09 @ 4:59PM|#
If the police have really declined to give an estimate of
the crowd for the rally, does that tell us anything?
No. Most departments refuse to give estimates these days. For
obvious reasons.
|9.13.09 @ 5:14PM|#
If what Mr. Wilson said to Mr. Obama is to be considered
deplorable and an apology demanded, then what Mr. Obama said to
those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco should be considered
the same way and he should apologize to us.
because you think "those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco"
were sitting in a presidential address to a joint session of
Congress when Obama said whatever he said that so offended you
?
Tony|9.13.09 @ 5:16PM|#
Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is.
Yeah it was pretty powerful in Rwanda too. Don't know I've heard
"those liberal cockroaches" yet, but some of the things Beck says
is comparable.
|9.13.09 @ 5:28PM|#
Unfortunately Glenn Beck is a clown. I tried watching his show for the first time a couple days ago. After about 15 minutes of haphazardly switching between asking vague questions and spewing rhetorical statements that could have supported any philosophy about anything I changed the channel. Though to be fair I've never heard his radio show, although I don't know why he'd be much different.
|9.13.09 @ 5:37PM|#
because you think "those of us who oppose his healthcare
fiasco" were sitting in a presidential address to a joint session
of Congress when Obama said whatever he said that so offended you
?
What does that have to do anything?
Obama works for us, not the other way around. In most jobs lying to
your boss gets you fired when it's found out. Unless Obama thinks
honesty is above his pay grade.
|9.13.09 @ 5:41PM|#
Don't know I've heard "those liberal cockroaches"
yet
I could call into a radio show you listen to and use that phrase,
if you like.
|9.13.09 @ 5:44PM|#
The number of addled white people that turned out because of corporate "grassroots" organizing was smaller than the number of racially diverse, sincere and smarter people that turned out for the Michael Jackson memorial at Staples Center in Los Angeles
hmm|9.13.09 @ 6:11PM|#
Tony | September 13, 2009, 5:16pm | #
Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is.
Yeah it was pretty powerful in Rwanda too. Don't know I've heard "those liberal cockroaches" yet, but some of the things Beck says is comparable.
Wasn't it the Hutu government that carried out the genocide against
the the Tutsi population? Kind of a a failed analogy. Especially
given the amount of air time the current administration has. I'm
starting to fucking dream Obama I see him so much.
|9.13.09 @ 6:16PM|#
What does that have to do anything?
Well, there are rules about how people are required to behave in
such a session. And if Mr Wilson doesn't want to obey those rules,
he must accept the consequences.
There are no such rules out here.
On the other hand, the question of health care reform was pretty
much settled back in November. And it was settled in Obama's favor.
"Elections have consequences," is what Republicans used to say,
back in the day. Maye you should revisit the notion.
Tony|9.13.09 @ 6:28PM|#
Wasn't it the Hutu government that carried out the genocide against the the Tutsi population? Kind of a a failed analogy.
Agitprop always smells the same no matter who is using it. Will
spreading lies meant to make the ignorant afraid only become wrong
once it's taken to the level of violence?
hmm|9.13.09 @ 6:55PM|#
Agitprop always smells the same no matter who is using it. Will spreading lies meant to make the ignorant afraid only become wrong once it's taken to the level of violence?
So you believe everything Obama and his administration say? You
actually think calling town hall goers and people that are
dissenting against current are actually terrorists? Otherwise I
stand by my point. It's a failed analogy.
I chose to ignore the retarded hyperbole about violence and give
you the benefit of the doubt, but I guess you are dumbe enough to
equate a peaceful march on the US Capitol and the genocide in
Rwanda. Grats on a new and improved Godwin's Law of R.
michaelburns|9.13.09 @ 8:04PM|#
Hey Matt,
You're gonna have to start charging for these comments... lol.
$20ForHeadDontCum|9.13.09 @ 8:14PM|#
I'm starting to fucking dream Obama I see him so
much.
I know exactly what you mean. He's even starting to push his way
into my masturbation
fantasies.
Gilbert Martin|9.13.09 @ 8:28PM|#
I watched some of the demonstration on CPSAN.
The best sign that I saw anyone holding said
"Charity is not a Constitutional function of government."
|9.13.09 @ 10:05PM|#
If the patriotic Americans' efforts on 9-12 are ignored by
congress, what is our recourse? HR 3200, regardless if amendments
are added to control illegal alien use or to provide abortion
limits, will still infringe upon our economic freedom and civil
liberties. And just as the courts have used federal funding to
impose more open access to ER's not permitted by law, any direct
involvement of the federal government in the private health care
system can open it up by lawsuits and court decisions to what is
supposedly outlawed.
If an amended HR 3200 comes up in the House for a vote with the
details the media indicates will remain, which directly impact our
economic freedom and civil liberties, it will be time to repeat in
DC the Income Tax Revolt tactics of 1999 that occurred in
Tennessee. The 1999 Tax Revolt was way short of a violent
insurrection as was Shay's Rebellion of 1786, however the 1999 Tax
Revolt was successful in stopping the state of Tennessee from
establishing an income tax. It went beyond MLK's tactics a bit, but
we, the people, never played with MLK's overt, proactive tactics of
civil disobedience in our anti-ObamaCare endeavors. The proof that
it can work is that today TN still does not have an income tax. The
TEA Party movement had better plan for a quick "assault" on DC
should congress ignore the will of the people that was so visually
demonstrated yesterday. See http://glennreynolds.com/?p=8 for
information on the 1999 Income Tax Revolt
I trust that conservative, moderate and libertarian freedom loving
Americans, as was demonstrated and observed by me yesterday by the
1.5 million citizen activists, will act in the same responsible
manner if shutting down congress is needed. We certainly showed
restraint yesterday. A controlled mass of citizens cannot be
stopped by government unless government is willing to react as was
done in Iran recently. If that was to happen, we would certainly
know the true intent of this Administration.
While I do not wish for my blood or others to be spilled, as Thomas
Jefferson said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to
time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." MLK's and others
blood was spilled to give equal rights to all in America; we may
have to spill some to retain those rights.
|9.13.09 @ 10:18PM|#
It's more sad than amusing that people don't attempt to be
objective about how many people came out to protest on 9/12. It's
not about how many were on the mall (we know about the permit
restrictions) at any given time, and people come and go, so a peak
number will always be less than a total number.
I think the million-plus estimates are silly by a factor of 4. I
also think the 60-70,000 estimates are silly by a factor of four in
the other direction, without qualification. Based on all the video
and photos that have been posted, 250,000 seems like a fair
estimate of everyone that "showed up."
Suki|9.13.09 @ 11:05PM|#
Obama works for us, not the other way around.
I think you missed a memo. You must not be watching CBS, like a
good citizen.
Cnation|9.14.09 @ 12:25AM|#
The arguments about numbers are getting annoying. 3-400,000 tops
is what I come up with time after time based on personal
observations, photographic evidence, and the chart that's been
going around. People need to remember that the mall was closed to
us, so if you've automatically been adding in 940,000 for mall
attendance like some bloggers have, you need to drop that number
completely.
There is no shame in 300,000. That's a hell of a good turnout, more
then enough to get the point across that the protests have turned
into a movement. We're having success. Fuck the numbers, let's
continue building and moving forward.
Some pics, in case anyone's interested:
http://conservativenation.net/2009/09/13/pictures-from-the-9122009-taxpayer-march-on-washington/
-Cnation
jmccurter|9.14.09 @ 12:39AM|#
Why does everything have to be black or white? The color of my
skin is white, but I come from twelve different
nationalities,Cherokee and Chactaw Indian, French, Irish, Welch,
Black Dutch, and German just to name a few. So I ask all of you to
take a deep breath and put race aside for a moment. In this great
country that I live in things are definantly changing, but ask
yourselves in what direction. I don't want anyone spending my
children and grandchildrens' money. Do you? I don't want anyone
telling me what doctor I can visit. Do you? I don't want anyone
telling me how to raise my children. My mother's advice will
suffice in that area.
I work hard for my money and I understand that some taxes are
neccessary for our country's well being.There comes a point though
when enough is enough. I do believe our country is coming to that
point now. Whether it be healthcare or bailouts "We the People"
should be able to choose. That is what our country was founded on,
and that is what I, as an American, am scared of losing. The
choice! That is what makes this country what it is. That is why we
are different from the rest of the world.
It is not about hatred or racism. It is simply everyday Americans
like you and I having a choice as a collective people. No one
person should be able to take that from us. Everyone has their own
voice, I would hate not to be able to hear all of yours.
Thank you for your time.
</a|9.14.09 @ 1:46AM|#
Unfortunately Glenn Beck is a clown. I tried watching his
show for the first time a couple days ago.
Haha! Glenn Beck is dumb like a fox! Think of him as a political
version of Columbo. Just when you're ready to dismiss him as the
consummate boob, he turns around and says, "Just one more
question...."
|9.14.09 @ 2:44AM|#
My only problem with these "patriots" is how absent they've been from the gross spending excesses of the last eight years. The present concern seems to be based primarily on the plan for health care reform. A reform, which, pessismistically, will cost 1.2 trillion dollars over the next ten years. Half as much as Bush's trophy war in Iraq, and half as much as the tax cuts for the most fortunate among us. So enriching billionaires and killing Iraqi's is more important than our own citizen's health? The skepticism of Americans about the tea baggers is based on sound reality. Delusions should at least be consistent.
|9.14.09 @ 3:08AM|#
Republicans don't get a pass from us teabaggers (yeah I was in
D.C. too) but at some point do even Libs become concerned that we
may be kinda running out of money and foreign suckers to buy our
IOUs so we can keep the spending spree goin?
Otherwise, why not just let the country circle the drain, and allow
our currency become about as valuable as monopoly money, so we can
pretend to be such compassionate people because we all have
French-style "free" healthcare?
And if Libs were concerned about Bush doubling the debt in 8 years
are they now unconcerned about Obama doing it in 4?
BTW Bush's trophy war is about over, but ObamaCare will be forever,
and you can forget about it "only" costing a trillion bucks.
HealthCare is not magically different from all other scarce goods
and services in a free enterprise economy, and it won't be the last
industry Obama will attempt to nationalize.
Maybe yours will be next.
diesel jeans|9.14.09 @ 7:53AM|#
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|9.14.09 @ 9:02AM|#
My impression of the 912 crowd is that it included mostly independents, then republicans and a sizable portion of democrats. Let's face it the only feasable party left is the republican party. John Boehner has shown that he will scrutinize government spending and that he will simply not go along with the government taking over private issues. I applaud him. If you look at the crowd you saw young folks, lots of them, women and men and all ranges of ages. One thing I saw was a work ethic spirit of friendly folks. WHATEVER WE DO LETS SUPPORT ONLY 1 PARTY FOR ELECTION AND NOT A ROSS PEROT CANDIDATE THAT ALLOWED CLINTON IN OFFICE. AMERICA CAN'T AFFORD ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF BARAC. SO IF YOU HEAR CODY FROM FOX NEWS TALKING ABOUT HATING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS AND SAYING LETS HAVE AN INDEPENDENT PARTY OR AT LEAST IMPLYING THAT LETS SAY NO TO CODY AND NO TO ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF BARAC.
|9.14.09 @ 9:49AM|#
Thanks for going and representing me in spirit. Awesome to watch from home, heartening to say the least.
|9.14.09 @ 10:16AM|#
Alex Pareene must certainly qualify for the Jackassery award of the month. Still, some sympathy is needed. The poor poppet writes for Gawker, which means he must have more self-esteem issues than a dozen Britney Spears clones.
emjem1963|9.14.09 @ 11:13AM|#
I was also there for 4 hours. If there were 30,000 people there
I'd be surprised:
.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emjem1963
.
I've been at many rallies on the Mall, most with official Park
Police estimates. This rally was way smaller than ones I've been to
that were estimated at 50,000.
patience dogwood|9.14.09 @ 11:23AM|#
This was a nicely written article, and it stands out in the sea
of those who were against the rally on September 12th. No one has
written about the entire extent of this rally, nor what it really
meant. I went to the rally from 9 am until 7 pm once all the
speeches were done.
The people I talked to touched my heart. Their stories and their
beliefs represented the tribulations which Americans are going
through everyday. They were so impassioned about this bill that
they traveled from almost every state, even Alaska and Hawaii, to
show Congress that they care about what that bill says.
I did not see a single 'terrorist' at this rally. Yes there were
some extremists, but you will get that on every side of the
issue.
I would just like to know how people can call constitutionalists
anything close to terrorism.
More than anything, I saw concerned Americans.
I saw brave military veterans parade proudly through towards the
Capitol. Many of whom were confined to wheelchairs with limbs
missing because of the sacrifices they made for their country. In
return they ask their country for the slightest of
reparations.
I saw mothers and fathers and grandparents, many of whom had no
party affiliation. Their ideology is the concern for their entire
family.
I saw many college students who work and go to school full-time so
that they may see their hopes and dreams come true. I myself am
struggling to help pay for my school bills.
One sign in particular that caught my eye was a young woman in her
early 20s with a sign that said "Barack I'm Ba-roke"
So to all of those who are skeptical about this march, please hear
this.
An estimated 1.5 million Americans came to this peaceful protest in
order to voice against a bill which would severely impact their
lives. They came to represent those who would not. A lot of people
I talked to said they had at least 4 or 5 friends and family
members that would be hurt by the bill and could not afford what
it's trying to implement.
The revolution has not been televised.
|9.14.09 @ 11:58AM|#
So how many people were there? One would think that if there
were upwards of 300K that the public transportation systems and
hotels would have been near capacity.
I'm seeing (alternately) 30-50K and 250-500K. The 1.5M claims are
obviously rubbish.
HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE?
|9.14.09 @ 12:36PM|#
The numbers I've heard say 60-70,000.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/size-matters-so-do-lies.html
Aakash|9.14.09 @ 2:43PM|#
Please check out Grover
Norquist's reflections on the D.C. 9/12 rallies.
A special THANKS to those who helped organize these events -
whether in D.C., here in Illinois, or elsewhere throughout our
great nation!!
|9.14.09 @ 5:09PM|#
Obviously Reason is using unfair labor practices, by forcing
Welch to actually go to the march, talking to people and writing
down what was said and what he saw.
How can other media outlets compete with this sort of routine?
Unfair.
doover|9.14.09 @ 6:52PM|#
i would try to estimate the crowd size for myself... except that
it seems this little story is buried. however, you should know that
i am fully up to speed on the critical Kanye/Taylor debacle from
every angle--BUSINESS AS USUAL.
when people look back and say that they wished they had paid more
attention, it will be too late. but, as long as everything is
making someone FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL good, that is what matters
most.
Mike|9.14.09 @ 7:22PM|#
I was at this event with you and your run down of the event is
very accurate. I would put the Number attending in the high 100k's.
But there were people coming and going constantly.
To those trying to say that I, as an objectivist and atheist, are
being swindled into working with religious bible thumpers backed up
by multi-national corporations. Go F**k yourself you stuck up
ignorant jack offs.
I had a good time, and I deal regularly with a group that is mostly
conservative. They don't pound bibles down my throat and often
agree with me on religion/state issues.
This event will be remembered as a turning point in small "L"
libertarian circles and future discussions about the history of
freedom and liberty based movements in this country. It's time some
of you got the stick out of you ass and worked with people that
might challenge your world view. Or just continue to have pointless
arguments in forums like trolls, whatever.
Thank you reason for a very fair and balanced article on the
march.
It's the Economy Stupid.
emjem1963|9.20.09 @ 3:08PM|#
Here's photos I took of the event:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emjem1963/3937478887/
and video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcQ8kmxrujs
deathbymedia|9.22.09 @ 11:58PM|#
I have done my own study base on devised methodology and
calculation which you can find here:
http://deathbymedia.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/912-washington-dc-tea-party-rally-crowd-estimation/
It's backed by evidence (pictures and clips) and determining the
boundaries of the protesters and calculation of final tally derived
from the density of the crowd at each given block. My calculus puts
the figures around 130k up to 160k.
912Photos|10.2.09 @ 10:28AM|#
Thanks for your coverage on the 9/12 DC Tea Party. I was there, too, covering the event as a freelance photographer. I invite you to visit my website, which contains an extensive photo gallery and commentary on the event. I believe the gallery shows a range of photos not typically seen of the event. I welcome all comments.
Thanks very much.
Deb Phillips
Documenting America's 9|12 Spirit
http://912photos.com
Site comments/questions:
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