Quick Impressions of the D.C. 9/12 Protest

I just came back from spending four-plus hours with the Don't-Tread-On-Me crowd at our nation's capitol. Expect a full Reason.tv report later, but my snap impressions:

* Big crowd. Do not believe any description that says "thousands." If there weren't at least a healthy six figures there, I will permanently revoke my head-counting license.

* Nineteen out of 20 signs were hand-made. My favorite was "Stop spending our tacos. I love tacos." The most popular were variations on "Don't tread on me," "You lie," complaints about Obama's "socialism," warnings about the 2010 elections, references to the deficit or big spending, critiques of Obamacare, and (especially) cracks about various czars (including not a few that equated czars with Soviet Communism). Godwin's Corollary was satisfied on multiple occasions, including "Hitler gave great speeches, too," "the Nazis did national health care first," and someone comparing Obama's 2009 with Hitler's 1939 (alas, we didn't get to ask him whether America was about to invade Poland). Michael Moynihan did have a nice chat about George Marshall with the fellow holding a sign saying "McCarthy was right." There was an "Obama bin lyin," "Feds = treason," "Birth certificate," and "Glen Beck for president." Greatly outnumbering such things were references to the constitution, taking our country back, and so forth. 

* Chants on the march included "Shut down ACORN!" and "Boot Charlie Rangel!" and "Don't tread on me." There was not a single "Hey Hey/Ho Ho" in evidence. Songs included "Glory Hallelujah" and "My Country 'Tis of Thee." The most moving chant might have been when we walked past the Newseum, with its ginormous carving of the First Amendment on the side, and the crowd spontaneously said "Read that wall! Read that wall!"

* There were some Obamas-as-Grim-Reapers, some weeping statues of liberties (and weeping Founding Fathers), and a sprinkling of V-for-Vendetta masks. The End-the-Fed, read-The-Fountainhead quotients were extremely marginal.

* By far the two most referenced politicians in signage and buttons were Joe Wilson and Sarah Palin, though maybe my eyes have become so accustomed to Campaign For Liberty shirts that I don't notice the sartorial enthusiasm for Ron Paul. I should note here that I didn't really listen to any of the speeches.

* There were almost no references in the signage and shirtage to issues of national security or cultural conservatism, although I did hear some "by any means necessary" talk about fighting terrorists from one of the speakers.

* The music, especially the politicized re-writes of stuff like "New York, New York," was dreadful even by political standards.

* By far the best dressed people at the show was a clutch of 20 or so twentysomething/thirtysomething types in tuxedos and evening gowns, singing and chanting a huzzah-ing stuff like "Freedom, not medicine!" and "Privatize Medicare!" and "Defend our insurance companies!" and such. It was those Billionaires-for-Bush pranksters, taking the piss out of the evil right-wingers by, uh, mocking the decidedly not-rich-looking crowd. The bait only really worked when they chanted "Bring back Bush! Bring back Bush!", which would be taken up by some of the crowd before they figured out the con, then they'd either laugh or make a crack about the "Ivy League kids" or "government workers" earning "time and a half" for their Saturday prank.

* Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him. None expressed trust in Republicans, and most preferred a "throw-all-the-bums-out" strategy. All but one did not care about Obama's birth certificate controversy, and those I asked thought it was foolish to bring guns to political gatherings.

* People had traveled from North Carolina, Alabama, Connecticut, New Jersey, Maryland, and Virginia, and Washington state.

* The view on Obama and his administration ranged from a "heading in the wrong direction" vibe to a "we're not gonna take it much longer" edge.

This is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful rendering of what I saw. With that caveat, I had a very hard time reconciling the human beings I talked to and observed with the caricatures described in pre-writes by the New York Times' Gail Collins ("The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply to conspiracy theorists who believe that Barack Obama is a noncitizen brought here by people who hate this country"), the L.A. Times' Tim Rutten ("the talk-show/tea-party right...if it has its way–will convert the GOP into an almost exclusively white, zealously religious, mostly Southern party"), and Gawker's Alex Pareene ("Glenn Beck is an actual terrorist, and the people attending his rally in DC tomorrow are al-Qaeda in America").

Political rallies are no place to seek the subtle truth, nor feel particularly glowing about your countrymen, and today was no different in that regard for me. But the meta-fact about a huge anti-Obamanomics protest eight months into his term is certainly significant, and very little of what I saw made me fear that Alex Pareene will be blown to smithereens by a suicide hijacker from Arkansas. I am confident, however, that I will soon be made to fear what I utterly failed to detect.

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  • Paul||

    There was not a single "Hey Hey/Ho Ho" in evidence.



    Thank. God.

    That is all.

  • blowjobmovies||

    lol thats funny

  • Jeffrey||

    One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be pointing out is that big business and big religion have convinced working-class libertarians they're on the same side. So I don't see the same disconnect that you do there.

    How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a different event when you didn't listen to any of the speeches?

  • ||

    Matt I love your last line. You should fear,what you utterly failed to detect and so should all politicians.

    This is just the beginning, that rat hole in congress is fixing to be peacefully removed.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Excellent report Matt. Thanks.

    ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5 million."

    I think it's now safe to declare this the Largest Libertarian Protest in US History.

  • ||

    Connectictu

    Ah yes, the planet that Cthulu is originally from. I hoped some of them would show, but wasn't overly optimistic.

  • radical||

    just got back myself, funny you mention "by any means necessary", i was wearing this tshirt
    http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj53/Illuminok/by_any_means_necessary.jpg

  • ||

    And...DONDERROOOOOOOOOOO

  • radical||

    and also, i didn't see a single "birther" either

  • Matt Welch||

    One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be pointing out is that big business and big religion have convinced working-class libertarians they're on the same side.

    You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?

    How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a different event when you didn't listen to any of the speeches?

    Perhaps because I never made any such complaint? Also, since you apparently didn't read it the first time around, note this: "This is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful rendering of what I saw."

  • Matt Welch||

    Connectictu

    Fixed, thanks.

  • Jeffrey||

    > You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?

    Hey, I guess not. If only someone would create a publication or something to help me out here.

  • jester||

    Glen Beck sometimes calls himself a libertarian. If that makes him a libertarian, so be it, but he doesn't speak for this one.

    Speaking of Glen Beck, 'Glen Beck for President', eh? Interesting thought. It would be precious to see one of his Tom Cruise moments during a televised speech. Complete with crying.

  • Matt Welch||

    Hey, I guess not. If only someone would create a publication or something to help me out here.

    Fair enough. Less snarky answer: Libertarianism does not now and has never = either love for Big Business, or agreement with Big Business about what the best policy positions might be. In general, the biggest of Big Business (say, Phillip Morris) tends to *favor* regulation, because it's a way to suppress competition and game the federal tax/criminal code in their favor. On the topic du jour of health care reform, the "Big Business" both within the health care industry and without (Wal-Mart, for example), is totally on board with the administration's reform plans, unlike most libertarians.

    I hasten to add that I would not broadly characterize the crowd today as libertarian.

    And to follow up more on the Billionaires for Bush, when our cameraman Dan Hayes interviewed them, and asked them about the sartorial gap with the crowd, they replied that they had paid for the crowd to be there. So, they were posing as the supposed bankrollers of the supposed Astro-turf. As always, I give them high marks for commitment.

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    Michael Moynihan did have a nice chat about George Marshall

    I hope he argued that if only Marshall had won the post-Pearl Harbor argument, the Western Allies would have celebrated VE Day alone in October of 1943.

  • Clarkspoon||

    So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their little white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their small penises assault weapons at home?

  • Uncle Remus||

    Sounds like a clan gathering for the 21st century.

  • Jerrry||

    Ouch: http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2673/slide_2673_37536_large.jpg

  • anarch||

    If there weren't at least a healthy six figures there, I will permanently revoke my head-counting license.



    The war on drugs is repealed because of a small victory in the war on obesity?

  • ||

    Clarkspoon | September 12, 2009, 7:29pm | #

    So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their little white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their small penises assault weapons at home?


    Evidently clarkspoon left his/her small brain at home.

  • Matt Welch||

    So a few thousand Bushbot birthers show up and have their little white riot.Were they crying because the had to leave their small penises assault weapons at home?

    Actually, as mentioned in the post, it was much more than "a few thousand," nobody I talked to had a kind word to say about George W. Bush, I found exactly one person who was exercised about Obama's birth certificate, and of those I asked every single one thought bringing weapons to political rallies was not smart. Though I did not examine penis size, you can be confident in knowing that you are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at least so far.

  • Sulla||

    Uncle Remus | September 12, 2009, 7:31pm | #
    Sounds like a clan gathering for the 21st century.


    Well, who wants to hang out in the Scottish highlands in this day and age?

  • ||

    The way NYT cropped that pic, it looks like just a "couple" of protesters, not thousands.

  • ||

    To those who just can't understand why anyone would protest against an "enlightened" Democrat administration, unless there was some kind of racism involved; I'm black. Not African-American or any other PC crap. Just plain BLACK. I am an atheist. And I am a libertarian (small l). I acknowledge that some (not most) so-called libertarians ARE racist, ignorant, fools, or just plain loony. However, I utterly reject the meme that anyone who doesn't like Big Uncle Sugar must be a redneck racist. And no, I never got a job through affirmative action, never got a minority grant, or any other crap that the so-called left like to hurl out to try to make me look line an ingrate. My poor-ass family worked hard. I took my first job at the age of eleven and held it until I was nineteen (and still went to school and college). My earnings helped to feed my family and clothe my brothers. In my neighborhood, a person on welfare was considered a lazy bum or a drunk(how things have changed!).
    The people at those protests, whether they were black, white, blue, or f***ing striped, are my allies in the fight to restore the idea of reward for effort, frugality, and liberty.
    So, knock of the racist crap. There are asshats in every political party.

  • Shannon Love||

    With that caveat, I had a very hard time reconciling the human beings I talked to and observed with the caricatures described in pre-writes by the New York Times'...

    Yes, well, leftism is defined by their uncritical embrace of their self-agrandizing fantasies. They settle on a narrative and stay with it largely because they are usually heavily insulated from the consequences of doing so.

    In their fantasy, they and only they represent "ordinary" people so anyone who disagrees with them must be distinctly unordinary. Therefore they invent these caricatures so they don't have to question themselves.

    Their repeated insistance that the tea party movement is astroturf springs from both their cryto-Marxist obsession with evil business combined with their innate intense elitism. They simply cannot conceive of ordinary people having their own carefully thought out ideas about serious political matters (e.g.see the "small penis" comment above.) Given these presumptions it is obvious to them that evil capitalist have fabricated a "movement" out of fringe wackos. It follows that tea party members and their ideas can be dismissed out of hand.

    The left has religiously followed this basic framework since the 70's and have repeatedly had their heads handed to them to their utter surprise when ordinary people stood up for what they believed. I suspect this will be another one of those times.

  • ||

    The way NYT cropped that pic, it looks like just a "couple" of protesters, not thousands.


    I am sure it was purely unintentional.....

  • Ann (at the rally today!)||

    I came here from Los Angeles on Thursday, and Welch has it exactly. I saw most of the things he saw.

    I would say one of the most-moving moments was when the crowd stood and quietly sang along to the National Anthem--and it was sung from the stage without the usual trills and screeches that seem all the rage these days. The singer did a very nice job.

    When the Billionaires for Bush started up their "Bring Back Bush", I shook my head, and replied: "Bring Back Reagan!" and the crowd took up my call instead.

  • ||

    Bravo, Double D!!! My compliments.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Yes, well, leftism is defined by their uncritical embrace of their self-agrandizing fantasies.

    Making the different from any other "ism" how exactly?

  • ||

    Even better would have been Bring back Cal!

  • ||

    And thank you to Double D! You give us radical, right-wingers hope !

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Anyone who is interested about where those Obama/Hitler posters and "Death Panels" came from
    here it is. Yes a Democrat! If you really consider Lyndon LaRouche a Democrat.

    BTW WTF is up with this website? Maintenance?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Meanwhile, for what Reason won't tell you, here's my coverage of the 9/12 Tea Party. Of course, what I discuss is something Reason supports, even if they're too shy to tell you about it.

    So, when are the TP leaders going to stab their useful idiot followers in the back?

  • Jim Treacher||

    I think Alex Pareene wants to be a writer when she grows up.

  • Joe M||

    Though I did not examine penis size, you can be confident in knowing that you are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at least so far.



    Hahaha, I love it when the reasonoids mix it up in the comments. Matt's just got a short fuse because everyone and their dog picked on him this week.

  • ||

    My fave sign was 'Government healthcare makes me sick." 'Big Government = Big Mistake" ran a close second.

  • ||

    If/when this country is taken back and restored to the wonderful free, conservative nation she once was, we will have all these patriotic Americans to thank for it. We owe every one of them a debt of gratitude for what they did today, and for the past several months. If I were a government official in Washington right now, I would be worried. No one travels across the country and stands up to government for nothing. These people are serious. And God bless 'em!

  • ||

    I'm just tired of fools ranting about racism and "Ku Klux Klan" every time someone disagrees with our beloved utopia creating liberals. I'll bet dollars to dimes that most of these people have never been on the ground where I grew up, or any place like it. These idiots don't realize that their policies can have unforseen consequences. I lived with them, and while I admit to some good, it often turns bad down the line. I say, NO MORE! People can solve their own problems, thank you very much. YOU GO, PROTESTERS!

  • alice bowie||

    Besides his stance on Healthcare, not legalizing weed, and that he is black (this would only pertain to certain people), is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    In support of the protest I rented a small plane and dropped thousands of pictures of me blowing myself on the crowd.

    I hoped the pictures provide the moral support for the protest to be successful.

    For the next protest I willing to step it up and take pictures of me with both a horse and a emu (the majestic emu is the porn star of the animal kingdom, they work really well in front of a camera).

  • ||

    Welch, dude, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

  • Jim Treacher||

    My favorite sign. Although I guess it's more the billboard...

  • ||

    alice bowie, please see my comments above.
    To reiterate, I AM BLACK. And, I am a (gasp!) libertarian.
    Respectfully request to not to see any more moronic crap about protesters being obviously racist.
    Of course, next I'll see nonsense about how I must be a self-hating Negro. So predictable.

  • Matt Welch||

    Besides his stance on Healthcare, not legalizing weed, and that he is black (this would only pertain to certain people), is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?

    Libertarians tend to not like presidents, not
    black
    presidents. In this specific case, I would say that economic policy is a foundational concern of most libertarians, and on this question Obama has turned out to be even much worse than George W. Bush.

  • ||

    Though I did not examine penis size, you can be confident in knowing that you are clearly the biggest dick in this thread, at least so far.

    But what about Eric?

  • ||

    It doesnt matter to what color the President's skin is. It's his character and his policies that I have a problem with; and Obama isnt the only one I have problems with. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Henry Waxman, among others, all need to go. These people are too self-serving and too radical for my taste. And there are some Republicans that need to go too. This is not about party, or race. This is about freedom, and fiscal responsibility. This is about the Constitution. It's worked fine for over 200 years, I think it will work a little while longer.

  • ||

    alice bowie, this is a small goverment libertarian site. Almost all Democrats, and a hefty number of Republicans, are Big Government Uncle Sugar fanatics. What on earth makes you think anyone here would love ANYTHING about a Democratic agenda?

  • ||

    Well, who wants to hang out in the Scottish highlands in this day and age?

    If it's near the Balvenie distillary, count me in.

  • alice bowie||

    I'll ask it this way then:

    Besides his stance on Healthcare and not legalizing weed, , is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?

  • alice bowie||

    Do libertarians feel that we should have toll booths all over the place so that ONLY the people that drive on roads should pay for them?

  • ||

    Maybe we ought to prevent the collapse of the electrical grid and just post things libertarians agree with as regards Obama's agenda.

  • Matt Welch||

    Besides his stance on Healthcare and not legalizing weed, , is there any other reason why libertarians do NOT like Obama?

    Alice, please click on the first link in my previous comment; it will at least give you the beginnings of an answer.

  • ||

    Well said Mr. Welch @ 7:55.

  • ||

    Alice,

    1. The increased military presence over seas.

    2. The massive amounts of cooperate welfare handed out (bailouts, cash for clunkers, etc...).

    These are a start, would you like some more?

  • alice bowie||

    Thanks Matt.

    I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    So, on the day after the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, was there anyone protesting The Patriot Act or the wars in Afghan or Iraq?

  • Some Guy||

    Songs included "Glory Hallelujah"

    A bunch of anti-federalists were singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic? That almost as good as the "czars = communism" signs.

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    The first comment is from me, the second is not.
    Since Matt Welch is hanging out on this thread, is the imposter using the same IP address as someone else? Or, just post the IP and I'll take it from there.

  • Matt Welch||

    I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.

    As always, we do not require an ideological litmus test for our readers and commenters. Please drop by any time you'd like.

  • alice bowie||

    It may NOT be Matt

  • ||

    Double D: Hey, I'm Black too (though thankfully not as poor as you grew up) and I agree with everything you said, down to the racist idiots that infect the libertarian (and heck, just about every American) political movement. My problem is the fact that a large chunk of the country has surgically attached themselves to Obama's genitalia. To paraphrase the immortal words of KRS-One, get off his penis...give his genitals room to breathe!

    Here's my thing. In the past 130-odd years since the progressive movement branched off from the various Marxist-influence political movements, we've seen the beast of unintended consequences run wild. I know the people pushing this plan aren't evil, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. With healthcare, the last thing we need is more "good intentions" in the rear-view mirror.

  • Joe M||

    1) Obama continues Bush's policy of amassing as much power in the executive branch as he possibly can.
    2) He's allowed our deficit to bloat to a mind-blowing four times the previous record.
    3) He's set us on a path that will double our national debt in less than a decade, to the tune of ~$20,000,000,000,000.
    4) He's pursuing horrible foreign policy that achieves little beyond the loss of human life.
    5)He's doing his best to destroy our economy by encouraging nightmarish monetary manipulations.


    And that's just a partial list.

  • alice bowie||


    Please drop by any time you'd like.


    R u kidd'n Matt...I live here. This is, by far, my favorate site in the cyber world.

  • Matt Welch||

    The first comment is from me, the second is not.
    Since Matt Welch is hanging out on this thread, is the imposter using the same IP address as someone else? Or, just post the IP and I'll take it from there.


    Actually, Loney is right to bring this up -- please, there are many, many ways to argue w/ our 24ahead friend without spoofing his username. These fake-name piss fights are forcing us to overhaul our comments system, which is about as helpful in the production of journalism as stapling your own tongue. So, knock it off.

  • Joe M||

    Yeah, I've always thought the fake name stuff was really childish and pointless. Just tell him to piss off because he hates brown people, simple enough.

  • alice bowie||

    Did any of u guys vote for Obama?

  • ||

    alice, please give this some thought; if we did yesteryear what we do today, we would all be riding buggies and burning peat. Businesses fail. In fact, eventually, they must fail. It is not the goverment's duty to make sure that any business survives. Yes, it sucks if you lose a job, but the death of one business often heralds the growth or birth of another business. We do not advance by propping up failures. So, the car displaced the buggy, and better overseas model cars displaced GM. The Big Three could have either died or found a better, humbler business model. Instead, they got a big handout. In essence, the taxpayers bought a sh**load of cars. I'm still waiting for my free truck. Not gonna hold my breathe though.
    To make matters worse, the handouts were arbitrarily targetted, so the government literally picked "winners" and left "losers" to rot. Most of us would agree, if asked outside of a political context, that choice and competition are important parts of a healthy economy. Does any of this sound like choice or competition to you?

  • Joe M||

    I like to think of it like pruning a tree of its dead, dying, or diseased limbs. If left attached, they only take resources away from the healthy parts of the tree, much like trying to keep unhealthy parts of the economy afloat causes more damage to the economy as a whole.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    and better overseas model cars displaced GM.


    Gm failed because they were running on an antiquated business model for 30 years. There was nothing wrong with their cars or trucks.

  • alice bowie||

    Let me tell u Double D.

    I'm a Quant/Programmer in the Financial IT world in NYC.

    Although I would probably loose not only my job, but my career, due to this meltdown; I was not in favor of the bail-outs either.

    However, it appears that if they'd not bailed out the banks, the meltdown may have been big. I don't know how much u understand the capital markets but the counterparties of many exotic loans and exotic financial instruments would have defaulted. It may well have been the end of the American Aristocracy.

    GW Bush and Obama did NOT bail out the banks to save the little guy nor the big corporations per se...they were bailing out America's Rich that did not have interest outside of the US.

  • alice bowie||

    With that said...and not being a member of Americas Aristocracy...It would have been interesting to see the Financial Meltdown.

  • ||

    I like the sign that said "You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!"

    Not that the voters will, of course...

  • alice bowie||

    Sage, it's rude to call people that don't share your opinion 'stupid'.

  • King Mackeral||

  • Rich||

    Even better would have been Bring back Cal!

    How about: All the Way with T(NMN)J! ;-)

    I think it's now safe to declare this the Largest Libertarian Protest in US History.

    Stay tuned.

  • ||

    Alice Bowie it's not a big issue with the recent editors (Matt or Nick) but previous Reason editor Bill Poole was a huge fans of toll roads. So "yes" is the simple answer to your tool road question.

  • ||

    Alice, I just don't think it will work out well in the long term. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. And since I plan to live for at least another hundred years, I'm definitely interested in the long term. Adding insult to injury, I'm convinced that most of the orchestrators of these giveaways are well aware that there will be negative long term consequences.
    Here's hoping sincere activism can stop us from digging a deeper hole. We're already getting close to the core.

  • ||

    Chris Kelly thanks for the clarification about which posts are yours. For the IP address of the spoofer, try 127.0.0.1.

  • alice bowie||

    Anything that is done will have adverse consequences.

    However, i find the libertarian position on education, healthcare, and other things a bit mean-spirited.

    It is truly a luxury to be conservative. I know u r black and say that the civil rights movement and the general welfare of taking poor people of all races out of extreme poverty is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    From my life experience, I'm glad the liberals before me did what they did. And, I think things are better for all. People, like myself and may, received public education, public housing and assistance and are strong members of the middle class. We are consumers of many goods and pay taxes.

    This is merely my opinion, and I'm not calling anyone names, but I feel that a community participation in education, health care for all, and the general welfare to keep people out of extreme poverty is good.

    Look at Ghetto blacks/latinos today as compared to the 1960's. They buy sneakers, designer clothes and silly looking hats, CDs. These are things that I don't buy and didn't buy back when i was pretty poor. Nonetheless, the BIG Guy is benefiting from this. Big, Small, and Medium size Businesses (many started by these people) are benefiting.

    So, I respectfully disagree, and feel that taxing all to help the fallen is not so much of a bad thing.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    these giveaways are well aware that there will be negative long term consequences.

    Their rationale is that they will deal with those consequences down the road when and if they appear. As if.

    It's just more smoke and mirrors, and job security. Once real inflation starts to set in, the Fed will raise interest rates and the Congress will raise taxes on the wealthy, and we'll be in for another bout with stagflation.

  • ||

    I give them high marks for commitment.

    I don't. They've flogged one joke for how long now?

    -jcr

  • ||

    I'm glad the liberals before me did what they did.

    Really? Why do you hate poor people?

    The liberals before you brought the process of economic advancement to a screeching halt for a lot of people, by turning them into permanent dependents.

    -jcr

  • Paul||

    ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5 million."

    ABC News has denied that claim, and has reported it was a misquote by Freedomworks organizers. They're holding to sixty to seventy thousand.

  • ||

    These fake-name piss fights are forcing us to overhaul our comments system

    About freaking time! Seriously, why haven't you hired some intern to install slashcode so you could have real threading. I mean, it's only been available for what, six years or so?

    -jcr

  • Tricky Prickears||


    The liberals before you brought the process of economic advancement to a screeching halt for a lot of people, by turning them into permanent dependents.

    Possibly, but would you argue that their civil rights policies were destructive?

  • ||

    To reiterate, I AM BLACK. And, I am a (gasp!) libertarian.

    This is the kind of thing Captain Kirk says to a computer to make it self-destruct in a shower of sparks.

    "If he is black, he can not be racist, but if he is libertarian, he must be racist... Does not compute.... Does not compute...."

    -jcr

  • ||

    would you argue that their civil rights policies were destructive?

    Civil rights policies, no. Racial discrimination under another name (IE, "affrimative action"), definitely.

    -jcr

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    JCR is to a certain extent right: "liberals" are to blame for a lot of bad things. But, they've also done some good things. Meanwhile, the record of the other side is a bit worse. And, the proposed solution by the "Partiers" would propel us to a revolution of some kind, possibly resulting in the opposite of what they say they want. But, don't worry: what the "Partiers" want won't happen since even a majority of Republicans support NewDealPrograms.

    Is there a pro-American, non-Gramscian, non-NeoCon, non-corrupt, non-LoonyLibertarian alternative to the "Parties"?

  • alice bowie||


    Possibly, but would you argue that their civil rights policies were destructive?


    Forget about the civil rights movement. I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.

    I believe that conservatives/libertarians believe that everyone that was born into welfare is a leach an is a permenant dependent on the system.

  • Syd Henderson||

    ABC News is now reporting "2 million." Other MSMers "1.5 million."

    Reduce that by a factor of ten, and I might boy it.

  • Paul||

    Reduce that by a factor of ten, and I might boy it.

    60,000 to 70,000 is what ABC is reporting. I posted that above.

  • ||

    "If he is black, he can not be racist, but if he is libertarian, he must be racist... Does not compute.... Does not compute...."

    Ya got me, J.C. I'm actually an alien doppelganger from beyond Pluto...

  • ||

    I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.

    Well now you're just making shit up, but since you want to go that way... Fuck you too, Alice.

    -jcr

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Civil rights policies, no. Racial discrimination under another name (IE, "affrimative action"), definitely.

    Yes. But I would note that Affirmative Action could be considered an economic policy, not a social policy. Or perhaps an economic policy disguised as social policy.

  • kinnath||

    However, i find the libertarian position on education, healthcare, and other things a bit mean-spirited.

    That may be true, but it's my priest's job to change that behavior, not the president's.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Is there a pro-American, non-Gramscian, non-NeoCon, non-corrupt, non-LoonyLibertarian alternative to the "Parties"?

    Yeah. Lyndon LaRouche.

  • Jordan||

    I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.



    I believe that you're a dumbass who doesn't understand libertarianism.

  • kinnath||

    I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.

    Then you are, in fact, completely ignorant about libertarian philosophy.

  • Suki||

    Matt,

    Thank you for your great report.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    I believe that you're a dumbass who doesn't understand libertarianism.

    That's already been established.

    See above:

    Matt Welch | September 12, 2009, 7:08pm | #
    One of the things that Billionaires for Bush seem to be pointing out is that big business and big religion have convinced working-class libertarians they're on the same side.

    You don't really understand libertarianism, do you?

    How can you complain that the NY Times seemed to have covered a different event when you didn't listen to any of the speeches?

    Perhaps because I never made any such complaint? Also, since you apparently didn't read it the first time around, note this: "This is all, obviously, a partial and unscientific take, and not an attempt to encapsulate a huge event, but rather a faithful rendering of what I saw."

  • alice bowie||

    The name calling is not necessary.

    I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in anything.

  • ||

    Forget about the civil rights movement. I believe that the true-puritan in the libertarian community would feel that abolishing slavery was destructive.

    I believe that conservatives/libertarians believe that everyone that was born into welfare is a leach an is a permenant dependent on the system.


    Wow.

    FUCK. OFF.

    Seriously: Fuck off, and while you're out there doing it, read a definition of libertarianism.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in anything.

    Limited government and NO government intervention are two different things.

  • alice bowie||

    BTW, the civil war itself is a good example of government intervening into interstate commerce.

  • Jordan||

    I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in anything.



    Well you felt wrong. And slavery was of course propped up by the government itself.

  • ||

    I'm sure there were a few libertarians/objectivists in the crowd (I'm dead sure in fact), but I would imagine that it was mostly conservative. There may have been a few conservative Democrats, the rarest of all political beasts (since the libertarian Democrat has been proven to be an urban legend).

    I don't see what's wrong with the whole "Don't Tread on Me" theme. I thought that basically summed up the libertarian idea (leave me be and I'll leave you be). I only wish they had been playing Metallica's "Don't Tread on Me". That would have been awesome...

    Whatever the number of protesters is, I'll bet dollars to donuts that it's at least quadrupedal the astroturf crowd that Obama had in Minnesota.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    The name calling is not necessary.



    alice, you started it.

    You accused people here of being slavers.

    Fankly, they were being nice.

    Perhaps you'd like to retract the claim?

  • ||

    "Do libertarians feel that we should have toll booths all over the place so that ONLY the people that drive on roads should pay for them?"

    Is there a Godwin's Corollary type of thing, where every time people try to have an intelligent discussion about limited government, some dolt starts banging on about the roads?

  • alice bowie||

    I didn't accuse anyone of being slavers. I did belive that libertarians would prefer no government intervention into an interstate commerce matter...like slavery. And, not that libertarians (or any of the people that I'm chatting with) are slavelords.

    I sincerely appologies if reading between the lines made you all think that I thought you were slavelords.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Toll roads? Toll roads led to a government created monopoly - EZPass.

    Some states are now leasing the rights to their toll roads to private companies.

  • ||

    I sincerely appologies if reading between the lines made you all think that I thought you were slavelords.

    I get it. You're a troll. Or you're really, really stupid. Either way, it's not worth wasting time on you.

  • alice bowie||

    I'm really glad for ezpass. I would not want 11 ezpasses in my car. I like that monopoly.

  • Jordan||

    I did belive that libertarians would prefer no government intervention into an interstate commerce matter...like slavery.



    Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.

  • alice bowie||

    I thought a Troll is a contrarian to whatever the topic is to get a rouse out of people. I've had the same opinion since i've been blogging here.

  • ||

    It's more people than I expected, but from that pic and video of the march I've seen I wouldn't estimate more than 100,000. There's about 60,000 square meters of Penn Av between Freedom Plaza and the Capitol and the crowd doesn't look very dense in any video I've seen. Comparably, the area filled around the Washington Monument alone during the inauguration was the same. The total crowd for that was less than 1.8 million, the crowd density was much, much higher, and that was a small fraction of the total covered area.

    It's somewhat deceiving to try and figure intuitively how many people are in such a long, narrow column. It's much smaller than you'd naively guess.

    That's just my amateur crowd estimation so suit yourself I guess. Like I said, a more impressive turnout than I expected.

  • alice bowie||


    Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.


    Thank you Jordon.

  • kinnath||

    I felt that libertarians and conservatives both shared the same philosphy that there should be NO government intervention in anything.

    Then you are, in fact, completely ignorant about libertarian philosophy.

    Conservative are delighted to have government intervention into the intimate lives of everyday people to make sure that the desired social norms are enforced.

    Libertarians expect there to be a government to provide national defense. Most libertarians expect there to be a police force to deal with people that infringe the rights of others.

    Try reading a book or maybe wikipedia can at least take the rough edges off your ignorance.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Yeah, well you need 11 ezpasses in your car. I have abot a dozen "violations" because their faulty technology didn't pick up the transponder in my car. No I have to fight, to prove that I had one in my car or pay a $25 fee on each violation.

    Fuck E-ZPass.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    No - Now

  • TheKm||

    The picture you're using is a fake. The flag was not flown at half mast today.

  • alice bowie||

    Here in the Metro NYC Area...it would really really really suck if u didn't have ez-pass. This is unless u don't mind long lines.

    I have many friends that are privacy freaks and are ok with the lines.

  • ||

    "However, i find the libertarian position on education, healthcare, and other things a bit mean-spirited."

    The most effective way to deliver education and healthcare to people is through free markets. That is why libertarians favor that approach.

  • kinnath||

    Alice you come here often. You participate in many discussions. I cannot fathom that you hold such completely bogus beliefs about fundamental libertarian thought.

    Do you just forget it all and start with a blank sheet every time you come back here?

  • kinnath||

    Here is your first lesson Alice.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

  • $20ForHeadDontCum||

    please, there are many, many ways to argue w/ our 24ahead friend without spoofing his username.

    But spoofing is more fun!

  • alice bowie||


    Libertarians believe government exists to secure individual liberties. Slavery is a violation of liberty.

    Actually , I first thought that I was a libertarian because i was a social liberal and a fiscal conservative/moderate. However, I find that when I have argued about the healthcare issue that many of the people are fundamentalist when it comes to free markets. And, that free markets is the cure to all.

    With the exception of Healthcare, I think I agree with just about everything that traditional libertarians agree on. I just don't believe that the free markets will help in TWO things: that is, healthare and pensions.

    I appologies, I was being trollish with some of the things I said 2-nite. I didn't really expect anyone to support the idea of 100% no government intervention. I was trying to make a point...and I did a crappy job of doing it.

  • ||

    The name calling is not necessary.

    Get bent. You accuse libertarians of advocating slavery, and then you get huffy about name-calling? Fuck you with Hillary Clinton's dick.

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    I now firmly believe that I'm a social liberal and a fiscal moderate-conservative and not a libertarian.

    That's what they all say on the first date. Come back any time.

  • Orangutan Lime Special||

    Yes, it's about time something is going to be done about the spoofing. I'm sick of having my good name, and the good name of xenophobia itself, be drug through the mud by people talking about autofellatio.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    I have many friends that are privacy freaks and are ok with the lines.

    It's not just about privacy with me. It's about a private company being able to accuse me of being a criminal (toll booth runner), when their technology fails, and having to prove my innocence.

  • ||

    more than this protested against invading Iraq on fictitious pretenses, and it didn't do any good.
    Government size and spending went up more than any other period during Baby-Bush years. Where were these protesters then? "Our Taxes"?

    Is it better to spend our money destroying someone else's vocuntry, or saving our own?

    why are almost of all of these people white? don't blacks, latinos, and asians care about their issues, or is this a racism thing?

  • kinnath||

    With the exception of Healthcare, I think I agree with just about everything that traditional libertarians agree on. I just don't believe that the free markets will help in TWO things: that is, healthare and pensions.

    A brutal as it may seem, no one has a god-given unalienable right to be healthy.

    No one has any legitimate right to expect "society" to cough up a quarter million bucks for life saving treatment if he or she contracts a life threatening illness.

    Yes it's very sad when bad things happen to nice people. But there is no legitimate government purpose that requires every man, woman, and child to chip a little bit into a bucket to make things right when these bad things happen.

    There are an infinite number of bad things that can happen to people. That's life.


  • ||

    The most effective way to deliver education and healthcare to people is through free markets.

    What? You mean health care and education aren't magically different from all other goods and services? Gee, who knew?

    -jcr

  • ||

    I just want to add, some libertarians are indeed anarchists.

    The slavery bit, however was beyond the pale. Offensive garbage

    Oh and I am not white either.

  • Click \'n Loathe||

    And don't even get me started about the plagiarists claiming that they came up with the idea of asking the tough questions and posting them on YouTube. I was the pioneer! I was at the forefront of the Web 2.0 wars while Matt Welch was trying to get paper clips out of his printer at the LA Times! Don't fuck with the Lonewacko!

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Maybe someone could narrow it down. Is the spoofing coming from Petaluma (something like infosniper.net can tell you)? Perhaps Quincy, IL (aka University of Tennessee North).

  • alice bowie||


    There are an infinite number of bad things that can happen to people. That's life.


    That is a very mean-spirited attitude and I hope it never happens. That is the only thing keeping me from calling myself a libertarian. And perhaps I'm not one.

    If this is how u people feel, I really hope u don't get ur way on this one. No offense to anyone. All you guys would have to loose is a couple of bucks. All the rest of the country would have to loose is their lives.

    Once again, I respectfully disagree. And, I wish the libertarian position was not so mean-spirited.

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    Didn't mean to be flippant, Alice. To respond to this:

    I just don't believe that the free markets will help in TWO things: that is, healthare and pensions.

    I'm the libertarian pessimist, so I'll put it to you that for many problems there are no solutions. Healthcare and pensions don't exist in nature. Effective healthcare and reliable patronage are extremely recent developments in human history. To the extent that some folks see better healthcare performance in Canada or France or Cuba or other lands, or countries where you get four weeks of vacation by law, etc., these are just minor tweakings of a quantum leap in human health and lifespan that began only about a century ago. (And of course it's open to question whether those countries really are producing better-than-U.S. results in terms of health and lifespan -- except in the counries that clearly are not.)

    Add to the above that there libertarian optimists can make the claim that deregulation (such as allowing individuals the same tax-break for health insurance that is currently available to corporations) would actually improve the average healthcare situation.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    A brutal as it may seem, no one has a god-given unalienable right to be healthy.

    Every other industrialized nation in the world would disagree with you.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    The music, especially the politicized re-writes of stuff like "New York, New York," was dreadful even by political standards.

    Ouch for Mark Russell.

  • ||

    I wish the libertarian position was not so mean-spirited.

    What's mean-spirited about advocating that all dealings with our fellow human beings should be on a voluntary basis?

    -jcr

  • The Internet Company||

    Lonewacko: Our traces indicate that the spoofer is upstairs with the children. Get out of the house, now!

  • ||

    j...sigh. Once AGAIN, see my previous comments above. Some of here are BLACK BLACKETTY BLACK BLACK BLACK.

    I am now using my last wish to make this "protesters are racist" crap go away...at least on this forum.

  • ||

    Eat a bag of dicks. You suck!

  • Tricky Prickears||


    ... (such as allowing individuals the same tax-break for health insurance that is currently available to corporations) would actually improve the average healthcare situation.

    An individual tax deduction for healthcare will not help an individual and here's why:

    Every person receives a standard deduction on their income tax return. That deduction is up around $7,200. Corporations use the health insurance deduction because they itemize their deductions. If an individual's itemized deductions are less than the standard deduction, the healthcare deduction (or any other deduction) is useless.

  • ||

    Matt Damon!

  • radical||

    alice, how's this for mean spirited: i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives. we need more darwinism

  • alice bowie||

    Hey radical, as per your comment:

    i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives. we need more darwinism


    And what I'm about to say is clearly trolling:

    Would you have a problem if the loses of lives were your children or your wife ?

  • 24AheadDotCom||

    Someone told me that someone else saw a tweet about an Althouse post from a blogger on another blog that said that Glenn Reynolds posted this vid from today's "party". I haven't watched it yet, let us know.

  • ||

    more than this protested against invading Iraq on fictitious pretenses, and it didn't do any good.

    The way I see it, the main effect of this is that the country-club Republicans are going to have to go back to pretending that they care about the scale of the looting for a couple of years, like they did during the Reagan administration.

    -jcr

  • ||

    i HOPE a lot of the country loses their lives.

    Your wish is already granted. Americans have nearly 100% mortality by the age of 90.

    -jcr

  • ||

    radical, I'd be down with like 90 percent of all males dying. Imagine it - Double D...HAREM MASTER!

  • 24givemyselfhead||

    Ok, I am sorry for using lone handjob's handle. I wont do it any more. Though let me say this, I always try make sure when using his name that I sounded like a spoof (i.e. it obviously wasn't him). I never pretended to be him in order to advance a real argument. But I will stop.

    I do stand by these two points.

    1. Lone handjob is a complete fucktard who does perform oral sex on himself...and...

    2. Emus are the porn stars of the animal world, but they tend to be attention whores.

  • KyleG||

    it's hard to imagine that crowd not surpassing 100,000+ people. Shit.

  • $20ForHeadDontCum||

    I also heard this video might have something to do with the events in Washington today. I was massaging myself so hard that my vision went blurry about halfway through, maybe you guys can help.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    The picture you're using is a fake. The flag was not flown at half mast today.



    It was at < Major Land Grant University in Flyover Country >.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    1. Lone handjob is a complete fucktard who does perform oral sex on himself...and...

    Shit, if I could do that, I'd never leave the house.

  • ||

    I also heard this video might have something to do with the events in Washington today. I was massaging myself so hard that my vision went blurry about halfway through, maybe you guys can help.

    Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?

    It's not creative, it's not clever, and it's definitely not funny.

  • JB||

    "Glenn Beck is an actual terrorist, and the people attending his rally in DC tomorrow are al-Qaeda in America"

    Then maybe that cunt should buy a clue and move to somewhere he will feel more comfortable fisting himself up the ass while he dreams about socialism. Because if it comes to civil war, he won't just die, he will scream a lot, then die.

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    Every person receives a standard deduction on their income tax return. That deduction is up around $7,200. Corporations use the health insurance deduction because they itemize their deductions. If an individual's itemized deductions are less than the standard deduction, the healthcare deduction (or any other deduction) is useless.

    Can't IRS set it up so the individual can add the insurance deduction after calculating the deductible -- that is, even if all your other items came to less than $7,200 you could still claim the standard deduction and then add the health care deduction on top of that?

    I'm not defending this, by the way. I oppose using the tax code for behavior modification (though I'm not sure you can tax without modifying behavior).

  • JB||

    "It was those Billionaires-for-Bush pranksters"

    I ran into those cocksucking bitches at the first DC Tea Party. They are a bunch of sniveling brats whose mommy and daddy paid for expensive private colleges in DC and like to take the Volvo and Land Rover down to protest.

    Limousine liberals at their worst. They don't even realize they are mocking themselves when they dress up in their tuxes. Real Americans don't have tuxes, you stupid rich limousine liberal fucks.

  • ||

    Then maybe that cunt should buy a clue and move to somewhere he will feel more comfortable fisting himself up the ass while he dreams about socialism.

    What do you mean?

  • ||

    Alice, it's odd that you mention pensions. The unfortunate truth is that, in most situations, guaranteeing an employee a lifetime payout is unrealistic. Why should the taxpayers have to foot the bill, just because some companies made unrealistic promises to people who were gullible enough to accept them? If I promise to pay you thousands of dollars a year for thirty years, when you aren't even doing any work for me, and you are shocked (shocked, I tell you!) when I don't actually have the money to do that, why should that be the taxpayers' problem?

  • JB||

    What do you mean?

    The Leftist he/she/its can move to Canada or France or somewhere else where they can get more socialism. Freedom-loving people don't have that option and we will make our stand here.

  • radical||

    the fun begins in earnest on the headcount. left wing media now reporting that police "declined to estimate" the crowd size so whatever the reporter thinks becomes the "official" number... awesome

  • Tricky Prickears||

    I'm not defending this, by the way. I oppose using the tax code for behavior modification (though I'm not sure you can tax without modifying behavior).

    Well, unfortunately it is currently set up so you must either take the standard deduction or itemize. I'm not an accountant, but I believe there would need to be some rewriting of tax law necessary. Personally, I would like to see the standard deduction eliminated and the rate adjusted accordingly. The standard deduction is unfair to small business owners that operate as a sole proprietorship. The first $7,200 of legitimate business expenses are essentially useless.
    But, then there are those that would prefer a flat tax with no deductions, and no taxes on businesses. Business taxes are ultimately paid by the consumer.

  • ||

    I know what you mean, JB. Some of your profanity laced comments are among the funnier I've read lately.

    Make no mistake, I'm what you would call "mostly ready." And I'm getting more ready by the day. The breaking point will be passed sooner or later.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Big Muddy's proposed form 1040 (assumes---but does not endorse---the need for a 16th amendment tax, and an IRS to collect it):

    1. Enter the name(s) and SSN(s) of all household members:
    2. Enter the number of entries in question 1:
    3. Total income of all people named in 1 (attach support documentation):
    4. Divide line 3 by line 2:
    5. Subtract the deduction (see instructions) from line 4, if the result is negative enter 0:
    6. Multiply line 5 by the tax rate (see instructions):
    7. Multiply line 6 by line 2, this is your total tax liability:
    8. Enter any withholding, early payments, or carry over from the previous tax year:
    9. Subtract line 8 from line 7:
    10. If the result in line 9 is negative you may expect a refund approximately N weeks after filing. If the result on line 9 is positive, cut a check.
    11. Sign:

    It has only two dials (the deduction and the tax rate). Should cut the tax code in half, but still leaves the matter of who can qualify to be a single "household" up in the air. It has no marriage penalty, since you can only win (as a group, anyway) when you merge your finances. Makes no distinction between wages and capital gains either---which might not be the best way to do it, but I fear handing the politicians too many dials.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Can't IRS-

    Stop right there.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Just to clarify. A sole proprietorship essentially means self-employment. Both business and personal finances are the same. When a business is incorporated, the business has its own set of finances and the owner draws a salary from the business. Then, you are essentially paying taxes twice, once for the business, and once for your personal salary.

  • Xeones||

    EscapedWest, i would add, as an important component of your tax reforms, that the 1040 needs to be filed by the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November. Oh, and no more paycheck withholding. That's right, cut Uncle Sugar a big fat check, then go vote!

  • alice bowie||

    Pirate Jo,

    Casa Blanca...my favorate.

    I agree. We should have never let corporations like GM be responsible for the pensions of their employees. The pyramid is just not big enough. Plus, if the corporation goes broke, these people will end up on the public dole in one way or another.

    That is why I support a publicly funded pension. That is, a pyramid that includes all workers contributing to a fund for the benefit of those that retire after some age...like 65. Social Security. Except, we shouldn't squander the fund...as we have here in the USA. Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming crisis would not have been as bad.

  • ||

    Yeah Alice you said you were a quant. Pensions are a mess.

  • alice bowie||


    Just to clarify. A sole proprietorship essentially means self-employment. Both business and personal finances are the same. When a business is incorporated, the business has its own set of finances and the owner draws a salary from the business. Then, you are essentially paying taxes twice, once for the business, and once for your personal salary.


    Actually, if the business has ZERO retained earnings and passes all procedes to the personal return, you are ONLY taxed ONCE. Or, setup an S-Corp.

  • alice bowie||

    For payroll taxes (i.e. FICA, Medicare, etc.) you are taxed twice.

  • ||

    [i]From my life experience, I'm glad the liberals before me did what they did. And, I think things are better for all. People, like myself and may, received public education, public housing and assistance and are strong members of the middle class. We are consumers of many goods and pay taxes [/i]

    Alice. General I believe liberals in the pursuit of making their lives more than the proverbial drop in the ocean that it is, steal from at least two groups of people. First they steal from the working people and then they give to people with the unconscious message, "we do not think you can do it." Even if this is not the intended message, it is what is received and receiving group has their ability to develop confidence in their competence.

    This comes from a white guy who was not honed on a good work ethic, walked away from things when they became a little hard, felt unhappy and entitled. The pain of being dependent just happened to be greater than the fear of being incapable. Unfortunately, I have a sibling who has not been able to break this and is 38 and lives with our parents, what an f'n catastrophe.
    So NO I completely disagree on the good things liberals have done. Give someone part of a fish but for god sakes teach them how to fish, and stand back and watch them do their thing.
    DD, I love when I find soul mates and their turn out to be black guys (and no, not gay).

  • ||

    Alice politicians squander any resources you entrust to them. That's why a system with individual accounts outside government control is better. And pensions are just tgtbt which is why defined contribution plans are better. And IRAs allow people to put their entire savings into pump and dump scams so the GWB social security privatization with restricted investment options is better than a completely IRA based plan.

    Unfortunately GWB tried to argue that individual accounts with restricted investment options were guaranteed to have better returns than the risk free rate of return, which is nonsense.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Actually, if the business has ZERO retained earnings and passes all procedes to the personal return, you are ONLY taxed ONCE.

    Yeah, but doesn't a business need to retain a certain amount of working capital?

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    Oh, and no more paycheck withholding.

    Thank you, Milton Friedman, father of global horror.

  • ||

    "Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming crisis would not have been as bad."

    Why should the Social Security Fund ever have been started in the first place? Why should anyone be *entitled* to retirement at the age of 65? If you've worked that many years and haven't managed to save up anything for yourself, then keep working - it's not anyone else's fault. People are physically capable of working longer due to increased lifespans anyway, so it's not the end of the world if you have to have a part-time job in your 60's or 70's. People should take care of themselves, based on their own planning, saving, and decision-making.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Xeones says:

    That's right, cut Uncle Sugar a big fat check, then go vote!



    I can get behind that.

  • alice bowie||

    Johnl,

    The only reason I argue for a public pension is that the pyramid would work better if it included everyone in the USA. It has to be a monopoly...One Pyramid. I've done a lot of math on this and it appears to be the only thing that would work...along with personal savings. It doesn't have to be the government in my book. It just has to be a monopolistic entity that doesn't squander the funds.

    Pyramids get bad names. They are ok. And, they are different from Ponzi or Madoff Schemes...in which, the PERP squanders the FUND.

    Imagine Year ONE of Social Security:

    Fund= (R)evenue - (B)enefitCost

    Now, look at Year TWO and beyond

    Fund = [ (R) + (I)nterest on Fund ] - B

    This works ok as long as B < [R + I].

    We are facing a demographic diversity where B will grow. We need the FUND not only to generate I, but to use as Principal when needed.

    People like Ponzi, Madoff, and the US Government squandered the fund...so they never had the benefit if (I).

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    Had the Social Security Fund not been touched, the coming crisis would not have been as bad.

    How has the Social Security Fund been touched? That's a real question, not a rhetorical question.

  • ||

    Right on, Publius Speaks. Like you, I don't know what my life would have been like without certain liberal programs. Maybe better, maybe worse. Certainly, the community as a whole would have needed to work harded and cooperate more closely. In the long run, I think we might have been better off...certainly more unified within our own neighborhoods, if not wealthier. Of course, this assumes that we would have made the same advances in race relations without affirmative action. I think we would have, maybe a little more slowly though.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    Why should the Social Security Fund ever have been started in the first place?

    I thought SS was originally designed to be a "safety net", not the quasi national pension fund annuity it has turned out to be.

  • alice bowie||

    I actually agree with you Pirate Jo.

    I don't think that I'll ever retire. I'm happy working. I'm going to work until catastrophic illness sets in or I win the lottery. Because the way things have been goin' in the last 10 years for me...I can't save a penny.

  • </a||

    pats alice on the head

    *pat, pat*

  • alice bowie||


    How has the Social Security Fund been touched? That's a real question, not a rhetorical question.


    In the early 80's Reagan decided to pull and accounting scheme where they started including the fund in the General US Treasury to show a lower deficit...For the Arms race and some other things. Every president including Clinton and Obama have done the same thing. In all fairness to republicans, it was not just simply used for war...it was used for good things as well.

    Either way, they should have never touched it. Now, the same people are screeming that social security is broke and would need additional funding from the General Treasury. Well, although we can no longer afford it, we should have never counted this fund in the deficit report. We should have kept it holy.

  • ||

    Wow! We had "2 million" on the mall today?? Really???....Now I won't scream "he lied!" but...Here's a reminder of what 2 million people looks like on the mall.

    http://saysomethingfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/obama-inauguration-crowd2.jpg

    OK, If that's an unfair comparison, here's what it looks like to have half of that total on the mall.

    http://www.daylife.com/photo/0asEdv93lDgHB

    Finally..Here's what a political rally looks like WITHOUT 6 months of "free advertisement" by Fox news.

    http://www.good.is/post/obamas_biggest_crowd_yet/

    Congratulations on your demonstration today...Let the event speak for itself without blowing the headcount out of proportion.

  • Tricky Prickears||


    I don't think that I'll ever retire. I'm happy working.

    Many of my grandparents and great uncles worked well into their 80s. They were part of a generation that thought that if they stopped working, they would die. My Grandmother is 91, and up until last year, worked 4 days a week as a bookkeeper. Now, she just works one day a week. She doesn't need to, my Uncle and Mother will give her all the money she needs to live.

    The problem is, many people hate their jobs and can't wait to retire.

  • alice bowie||


    Yeah, but doesn't a business need to retain a certain amount of working capital?


    In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed. It must be passed through on Schedule K to your 1040. Therefore, you don't pay the corporate rate...you pay the personal rate.
    When the Corp is closed though, this capital must be passed through to the owners as a dividend (No payroll taxes apply) and personal taxes are due.

    In a C Corp, it is taxed...but there are many games that can be played.

    In a Sole Proprietorship (Schedule C and SE) it is not taxed

  • ||

    Well Alice, consider this:

    If you were going to live on even a modest $25,000 a year for a 25-year retirement, you'd still burn through $625,000. Average household income is somewhere around the $52K mark, so how do you think most people are ever going to scrape together that kind of money for that long of a retirement? And if the vast majority of people can't do it individually, where is the money supposed to come from? Thin air? Pyramid schemes don't work because they rely upon constant, never-ending growth, and our population numbers are leveling out. The answer is for people to work things out for themselves. For most of us, that's probably going to mean working longer than 65.

  • alice bowie||

    I think that if i were a bus driver, a cop, a ditch digger, a labor worker, etc. I would have to retire.

    But, a desk job i think I can do forever.

  • ||

    "Can't IRS set it up so the individual can add the insurance deduction after calculating the deductible"

    If the Congress says they can.

    Speaking of the Congress, it would have been nice if the Republicans had, say, gotten rid of the IRS in the 12 years they controlled the Congress. Assholes.

  • alice bowie||

    Pirate Jo,

    Actually, the population leveling out (demographic diversification in age) is a phenomenon that the designers of the pyramid took under consideration...THAT is what the FUND was for. When originally designed, the pyramid paid for few retirees.

    The demographic diversification in age is something that will NOT last for every.

  • Warty||

    Belated shut the fuck up, Lonewacko.

  • Suki||

    Oh Jay, *snap*!

    On your way to karaoke?

  • alice bowie||

    correction:
    The demographic diversification in age is something that will NOT last for ever.

  • Suki||

    Speaking of the Congress, it would have been nice if the Republicans had, say, gotten rid of the IRS in the 12 years they controlled the Congress. Assholes.

    I readed someplace that a Republican Congress made them be nicer than they used to be.

  • alice bowie||

    Suki...how would they have paid for War?

  • Tricky Prickears||

    In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed.

    If my business ever picks back up I may look into an S-Corp.

  • alice bowie||

    Let me make it clear Tricky...In an S Corp, the working capital is not taxed at the CORPORATE RATE...still needs to be passed through.

  • alice bowie||

    Look at
    http://www.residual-rewards.com/s-corporation-vs-c-corporation.html

  • Suki||

    ab,

    Suki...how would they have paid for War?

    Why are you directing that at me? I am Chemistry, not Accounting, not even voodoo accounting.

  • vince||

    Alex Pareene single-handedly ruined Gawker. I stopped reading a few weeks ago--just could not take their "white people are the cancer on humanity" ignorance anymore.

  • ||

    Intesting and I'm a libertarian working for the gov't to help people with disabilities pursue employment goals. But I actually go about my job for the demise of my job and waste. Ironic, Obama goes about his job for the demise of capitalism.

  • alice bowie||

    Ironic, Obama goes about his job for the demise of capitalism.


    I don't believe that to be true at all.

  • ||

    Name me an adviser around him who is a capitalist. I've been having my sincere doubts about geitner/berneke.

    His mom was communist. His dad was communist. Frank, his mentor was socialist/communist. Khalid Mosher mentor/confidante was socialist/communist. Reverend Wright is definitely not capitalist. Van Jones is communist. Carol Browner is socialist. Pelosi socialist. Barney Frank progressive socialist. Biden not smart enough to know what he is. David Axelrod is an astroturfing socialist. Cass Sunstein facist socialist. Mark Lloyd socialist. He was elected to Illinois state senate as a member of the New Party which was a socialist party.

    So if it walks like a socialist, and it talks like a socialist, then he's a capitalist, huh.

  • ||

    And I cannot believe I forgot his techniques are from Sal Alinisky's Rules for Radicals. And Alinisky was not much for the free market

  • dedicated_dad||

    One group waited up the march-route and methodically counted people passing. They were over 450k with no end in sight. Best estimates at this point are 1.25-1.5 MILLION. This may be the biggest demo in HISTORY.

    DD

  • ||

    This is the most important:

    "Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him. None expressed trust in Republicans, and most preferred a "throw-all-the-bums-out" strategy."

    The common denominator is: WE ARE FED
    UP WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

    Democrats deride and minimize these protests at their peril. They have wakened a sleeping giant of people who have never protested anything before. And now they are reading Saul Alinsky. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    Thx, Matt, for your even-handed and insightful libertarian take.

  • alice bowie||

    Republicans are just going to TAX everyone, deny liberties, and commit procurement scams (like War) to make each other richer.

    Would libertarians prefer that ?

  • ||

    Alice, you ignored my question.

    Pointing to the stupidity of others, does not affirm the behavior in question. The goal is to vote their asses out too.

  • alice bowie||

    From what I see of the protest, it does include libertarians...and a bunch of wackos as well.

    I'm not saying the libertarians are wackos...but it has klans people in there as well.

  • ||

    You still have not gave me reasons you do not think Obama is trying to end capitalism?

    Remember I work with people with mental illness, so I am used to people evading my questions

  • ||

    That is why I support a publicly funded pension.

    If you're a quant, I would really like to know where you work so I can short them.

    -jcr

  • ||

    it has klans people in there as well.

    Robert Byrd showed up at the tea party?

    -jcr

  • ||

    I"m Conner McCloud of the Klan McCloud,

  • ||

    Thank You.

    As I read it:
    Whatever it takes, attend one yourself.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?

    I think it is funny, and I'm a pretty important guy.

    Also, three black libertarians in one thread? I'm surprised the internets haven't collapsed.

  • ||

    "...to a "we're not gonna take it much longer" edge."

    Yeah, and the South's gonna rise again, too. I wish some of you bad asses would either shit or get off the pot. When it does go down, I'm JB will be there to rant about anal sex.

  • ||

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" pretty insures that you will have some fucked-up friends.

    I'll pass. Matt, you can put any gloss on this raging mass of humanity, but all their ex post facto "bashing" of GWB is bullshit--they were the torture-loving, "bomb 'em and let Allah sort 'em out" boobs who were the backbone of GWB's support. Give them their Sarah fucking Palin or whomever and they will resort to form, and you'll be diddling yourself while you wonder "where did all those people in the streets go?" The correct answer will be "home".

    Your desire to find in them a principled opposition to the Obamameister is a naive projection. Theirs is the politics of resentment and fear. Nothing new there--and nothing good, either.

  • Jordan||

    Theirs is the politics of resentment and fear.



    Irony, thy name is henry.

  • jester||

    "Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?"

    I'm with Art-P.O.G., it is very funny. Like the old running gag from Vaudeville, but better.

    And it is refreshing that this site is no holds barred- like a libertarian site should. Mock and be mocked.

    Besides Lonewacko and Donderooooo keep coming back for more. Really, they must enoy it-the negative attention- just like any total loser would.

  • jester||

    The Internet Company | September 12, 2009, 10:58pm | #

    Lonewacko: Our traces indicate that the spoofer is upstairs with the children. Get out of the house, now!


    And this was hilarious!

  • jester||

    I am just glad Mad Max wasn't here to turn it into an abortion debate.

  • jester||

    "they were the torture-loving, "bomb 'em and let Allah sort 'em out" boobs who were the backbone of GWB's support"

    I'd say many of them still are judging by the e-mails I get from the other-than-here Obama-hatin' crowd (and some here as well).

    I tell you it is difficult for most people to see other than left/right, on/off, black/white, etc. It is hard-wired into our brains and it takes a lot of work to overcome it.

  • ||

    Is there a Godwin's Corollary type of thing, where every time people try to have an intelligent discussion about limited government, some dolt starts banging on about the roads?

    WTH!??!

    First you tell me i can't call everyone i disagree with Hitler now we can't talk about the roads!?!?

    I like the talk about roads.

    LAME!

  • jester||

    But many (some, I dunno) of them were not Bush supporters as well. Hopefully, many (who were Bush supporters) will overcome their bigot nature, or at least put it at low priority and concern themselves with freedom and treasure.

  • jtuf||

    Henry,

    I went to the Greater NYC 912 Project petition drive to audit the Federal Reserve a few weeks ago. The other guys circulating petitions were good folks who were genuinely concerned about an over reaching government

  • jtuf||

    So this month we saw a czar appointed by Obama revealed as a 9/11 truther and a handful of birthers at a rally of over 100,000. The mainstream media hurries the czar's unpopular views through the media cycle but harps on the unpopular views of ordinary citizens at a protest. So much for speaking truth to power.

  • ||

    I'm not saying the libertarians are wackos...but it has klans people in there as well.

    I don;t know if Alice is a spoofer or if she is legit....

    If she is legit I think it is a sign that this is soon going to be the full party line of the left.

    Average Citizen - "I think taxes should be lower and the bank bail outs are a bad idea"

    Lefty Citizen - "Racist!!!"

    Do they honestly think this is resonating? Can't they see how doing this will make them hated? I don't know i have always thought the left were idiots on the economy but i also thought they were pretty good at manipulating their message to be more palatable to the general public.

    Don't they realize that America elected a black president, and calling everyone a racist every 5 seconds is going to blow up in their face horribly?

    I hate to say it...but i would actually like to hear what joe has to say about this.

  • jester||

    It is funny but the last discussion I had about politics with a self-professed Liberal, once I volunteered that I was a libertarian in philosophy, he brought up roads. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction, a cliche really.

    I replied that the Constitution provides for them and that there are much larger issues
    that I put priority on.

    Roads are very important. Northeast Native Americans used burns to clear passage. That's why there was no 'Ohio Trail' like there was an Oregon Trail. One could literally drive his wagon through open parkland all the way to the Ohio Valley.

  • jester||

    "If she is legit"

    Why are you so sure it is a she? My take was that the handle was a melding of Alice Cooper and David Bowie, two 70s glam rockers.

  • Nixon||

    Great report, Matt. Thanks for giving the info to us straight, which is a rare feat in today's highly-partisan environment.

  • jester||

    "I hate to say it...but i would actually like to hear what joe has to say about this."

    I hear the gentle voices calling ole Joe and I hate to say that just around the time I decided to become a permanent blogger here at reason I was still working on a handle. Using 'Qt. Jester', I questioned him on his own race obsession during the great NYPost Monkey-is-it-Obama controversy and he announced his departure. Too bad. I had sparred with him before as he was the default Liberal. I remember that Warty or someone commented on my overbearing metaphor. 'Beat it to a pulp', he said.

    I did and I feel bad because I can't be here everyday like he was.

  • Tony||

    including not a few that equated czars with Soviet Communism



    Yeah this is why one of the more common adjectives describing the Beckites is "historically illiterate."

    Seriously, this guy is a monologue of revolution fomenting, and nobody, not a single person at this event or Glenn Beck, can articulate a specific reason why the Obama administration is the absolute breaking point, that finally an unacceptable level of tyranny has arrived. The enemy is always known--their crimes are vague, though. I think more than race or anything it mostly has to do with people who find it unacceptable to the point of hysteria that people who don't match their demographic and values are running things.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Why do you think stuff like this, and your Urkobold shit, and the rest of your pretend-to-be-random-or-stream-of-consciousness-or-whatever-the-fuck-it-is crap is funny?



    Tom, assuming you're not a Lonewacko sockpuppet, but I hate to break it to you: no one at Urkobold spoofs posters - in the sense that we write under their names - ever. We have no problem calling them out as the assholes they are under the same handles we always write under. At least two of us spoke up against it when the main target was Eric Dondero.

    It's funny that you (ostensibly) tried to reason nicely with Lonewacko in another thread, and he bitch slapped you for it. Yet, you're lovingly back here, begging for more. I guess it's cheaper than paying for a dominatrix, anyway.

    Urkobold was created exactly because of assholes like Lonewacko. Jerks like him who don't come here to engage in any real conversation, but either to troll, or to flog their own hobby horse position. As much of a problem as I have with some of the comments Alice Bowie (joshua - Alice Bowie is an old Cheech & Chong character) made on this thread (and others), I believe he's a real person with views I disagree with. Because of this, I won't make fun of him on Urkobold. Lonewacko is an anti-Mexican, anti-immigration dicksore who comes to this site to insult people, demand that almost all immigration be stopped (a position that the vast majority of people here disagree with), and then cry like a little bitch when people don't treat him with kid gloves.

    Having said all that, if you don't like Urkobold, don't fucking read it. That should be easy for you, just hold your lips together.

  • jester||

    Some years ago I read Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club. It is an excellent history of the Progressive Movement and its ideological founding from the perspective of more an admirer than a naysayer. (I think it's healthier to read history that way vs. Ann Coulter's view.)

    So what would joe say? I think reading this book will tell you. And you will always know what joe would say.

  • BruceM||

    Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

    They're just racists conceding something after the fact to seem consistent. None protested Bush because Bush wasn't a stinking nigger. And they wouldn't be protesting if Joe Biden were president.

    How many black people were at this Fox News rally? 1% maybe? 1% of any minority is always self-hating or too dumb to realize they're associating with people who hate them. Hell, you'd find that 1% of the KKK is black if you looked under the sheets.

    Either these southern white people angry at a black president are historically illiterate extreme hypocrites, or they're racists. I suppose reasonable people can disagree, but to me, Occam's Razor leads me to think racism is the more simple explanation, and thus the correct one.

  • jester||

    Tony

    Glenn Beck (why two ns) is a strawman here. Go to the beginning of this monster thread (kinda sounds tractor-pull exciting) and feel the Glen(nnnn) love.

  • jester||

    Thanks BP,

    I feel dumber now because I grew up on Cheech and Chong. To add isult to myself I coulda googled the fucking name.

    At least I knew it was a made-up name and I may be right about its origin. Booby prize nonetheless.

  • jester||

    "And they wouldn't be protesting if Joe Biden were president."

    I will disagree on that. It's about the team on/off switch not the race on/off switch.

    People went ape shit over HillaryCare and soon a guy named (She turned me into a) Newt was the Speaker.

    Your sense of history is wanting, to be nice.

  • ||

    joshua - Alice Bowie is an old Cheech & Chong character

    Yeah that does not convince me....Unless you are the spoofer.

    I have had people say I am a fake person because my last name "Corning' meant some such thing.

    The possibility of a real person sharing a name with a cheech and chong character is not out of the question.....or more likely a real person choosing a cheech and chong character as their handle, but is expressing their real views.

  • jester||

    "...their crimes are vague"

    Bush, Obama, bankrupting the treasury is vague in a sense.

    Wars, bailouts, entitlements: that is vague as well.

    If you want unvague, visit all the transparency websites. It's all so richly unvague there.

  • Ibuprofin||

    But you are all racist. This guy says so.

    http://quichemoraine.com/2009/08/maybe-we-should-have-elected-a-white-president-after-all/

  • BakedPenguin||

    jester - he'd mentioned it previously, but I wouldn't have remembered except for seeing a video of "Earache My Eye".

    (Fun fact - Tommy Chong had a top 40 hit - "Does Your Mama Know About Me" - in 1965 with Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers.

    joshua - I wasn't saying the person's real name was Alice Bowie, I was saying that I believe there is a real person behind the posts. Also, in case you missed my note to "Tom", I don't spoof, and I don't troll.

  • jester||

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earache_My_Eye

    c'mon Joshua Corning. BP is right. Repent!

  • jester||

    BP,

    Funny enough, your post came just as I had googled Wikipedia on Cheech n Chong to show JoshCorn to acquiesce. I know the entire dialogue/song "An earache my eye" but still don't remember Alice Bowie. The strange collision of names struck me more from my knowledge of pop music history. I am going to see my shrink for his opinion: Ch y Ch en la juventud vs. amazing memory of pop stars.

  • jester||

    Joshua Corning vs Makers of Ambien

  • jester||

    Goddamn, well I declare, have you seen the like?
    Their walls are built of cannonballs, their motto is
    Don't tread on me-

    Jerry Garcia vs the crowd.

  • jester||

    Counted everyone in Matt's picture (it's why I've been up so late/early). Total: 2.1038654 million.

    That means selling snake flags (intead of snake oil) should boost GDP at least .00098765%

  • ||

    If the Billionaires for Bush crew were a conservitive Republican group mocking a 1.5 million rally of Code Pinkers, ACORN employees, SEIU members and Nation of Islam nutjobs, what would their odds be of a) being tolerantly allowed to protest and b) getting home unlynched?

  • ||

    Shannon Love's take on Leftists (9/12 8:11 p.m.) should be a blog post all its own.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    How many black people were at this Fox News rally? 1% maybe? 1% of any minority is always self-hating or too dumb to realize they're associating with people who hate them. Hell, you'd find that 1% of the KKK is black if you looked under the sheets.

    @ BruceM: See, this is the kind of arrogance that really pisses me off. You do realize you're being condescending to black people with these comments, right? I think you're being disrespectful to right-wingers and libertarians in trying to say that they're typically hateful of blacks, too. But I digress, you're a left-winger so you couldn't possibly be a bigot.

  • jester||

    Andrew, amigo

    What is the point of the comparison? That your team has been unjustly ridiculed? Is it a surprise that the left media hates the right media and vice-versa?

    I am sure Hannity will answer your question soon, unsolicited.

    From past experience and from fwds I receive from non-libertarian GOPers I can't decide as to how righteous this demonstration was vis-a-vis a disingenuous one by the left. Maybe it was also 'collectively' unrighteous.

    Fighting fire with fire often leaves everyone burned. Maybe a bad metaphor for politics. (Unless it means all politicians were burned to death.)

    My advice: never let an 'at least I wasn't as bad' approach govern your actions or ideology. If your gonna go that way, might as well go all the way. If you're gonna be a turd, you might as well be a floater.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    VAHighlander,

    I agree, but Shannon Love forgot to point out that all those ordinary people are racist. ;)

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Well said, jester.

  • ||

    "The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply..."



    Gail Collins is, by that statement, an utter fool.

  • jester||

    Which of the following are black:
    a)Dravidians
    b)Solomon Islanders
    c)Dani tribesman
    d)Tasmanian aboriginals
    e)Pygmies
    f)Hottentots
    g)Kobe Bryant (aka the Mamba)
    h)Death
    i)Profits
    j)Jack
    k)Out
    l)most Bantu speakers
    m)sea
    n)Jack
    o)Karen
    p)Day-of-the-Week
    q)ball
    r)list
    s)History Month
    t)sea bass

  • ||

    Considering that none of you--regular posters, editors, contributors, trolls, spoofers, griefers, and random whiners sent here by visions of The Chosen One--seem to have the balls and commitment to your ideals to say it yourself, I will bravely step forward and proudly proclaim:

    I love tacos, too.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I love tacos, too.

    Me too. Soft tacos with tuna.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I apologize for my snark, though. I'm sure BruceM has done the research and discovered that any black person who isn't a democrat is self-loathing.

  • jester||

    True enough,10, money policy is the core issue. It breaks up many a marriage.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    And I don't think we have to ask the commenter formerly known as "mmm...tacos" how he feels about MexicanCuisine.

  • jester||

    I love pink tacos.

  • jester||

    I also love tacos with smelly cheese in them.

  • Andrew Lale||

    Jester: My point was obvious. When it comes to civility, having a sense of humour, allowing satire to exist even if its aimed at me there is only one side in it. What happened to counter-protestors who showed up at anti-war demos? Hectored, spat on, shoved, banners and placards ripped off them and destroyed. Did any of that happen to Billionaires for Bush? Er, no.

  • jester||

    'I'm sure BruceM has done the research and discovered that any black person who isn't a democrat is self-loathing.'

    C'mon Uncle Tom is the established term. Stop trying to enrich an already dangerously inflationary vocabulary. Yikes! The English language is almost libertarian since acceptance coincides with usage.

    Where are the Culture Ministers when we need them?!!!

  • jester||

    Anyone else notice that Reason now forces you into Preview mode before you send your message?

    It happened overnight. I swear. But it's creepy.

  • ||

    It's "Battle Hymn of the Republic" NOT "Glory Hallelujah."

  • jester||

    "What happened to counter-protestors who showed up at anti-war demos?"

    Dunno, but they were on my side. I never went to Washington or Idaho, but my peers could attest that I have annoyingly been against Afghanistan Invasion, Iraq Invasion, Privacy Invasion from the getgo.

    If you're lookin' for love on that position, this is the place. Big Kiss!

    and

    OXen

    jester

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    jester,

    You'll have to go after Aaron MacGruder, too. Uncle Ruckus is way funnier than Uncle Tom (or Uncle Ben).

  • jester||

    Q: Where are the grapes of wrath stored?

    A: On the library shelf under Steinbeck.

  • jester||

    Andrew,please

    I am ignorant about Billionaires for Bush. I 'learned' about them in this thread and after several input interruptions to google or wiki other ignorances, I still haven't nor will I try to understand Billionaires for Bush, unless you or someone else tells me or even suggests they have been misrepresented. I think I know their shtick. It ain't aimed at someone like me so I have ignored it.

    Go buy a tuxedo rental.

  • jester||

    This is a test. Only a test.

    Anyone else notice that Reason now forces you into Preview mode before you send your message?

    It happened overnight. I swear. But it's creepy.

    Okay! I'm not crazy (but drunk, yep)

  • Christine||

    Interesting. By the time I saw those dressed-to-the-nines marchers (around 1pm, I think), there were only about 8 of them, they had ditched their sign, and were telling people they were dressed as "The Czars", not "Billionaires for Bush".

    Not sure what was up with that but they were amusing anyway.

    Click on my name to see the photos I took yesterday. (Didn't get the BFB/Czars people because my CF card was full by then).

  • smartass sob||

    Me too. Soft tacos with tuna.

    Nah. Fish tacos with grilled Talapia and shredded cabbage, hot sauce etc.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    It's "Battle Hymn of the Republic" NOT "Glory Hallelujah."

    I learned something new today.

  • ||

    I liked Double D's comments. He sounds like a real American to me.

  • @||

    Speaking of ACORN, the Census Bureau has severed all ties with the pimps, er, "community organizers." This has nothing to do with protests, Glen Beck, embarrassing video stings, ongoing fraud investigations, or anything at all.

  • jester||

    'You'll have to go after Aaron MacGruder, too.'

    That will certainly involve effort. I am much too busy drinking. I am a Union Man for god's sake! heh, heh.

  • @||

    Just went to washingtonpost.com to check out their coverage of the big event. Evidently it never happened!

  • ||

    Well first of all, you left out our state. We had about 100 of us from Oklahoma.(That I know of.)Second of all, are you kidding me ? You didn't see thousands of Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion signs,buttons and stickers virtually everywhere? I was there from 9:00 till 5:00 (aproximatly) and I saw PLENTY of social conservative stuff. Birther stuff too. The four of us who rode up here were all birthers, as were probably most of the Oklahoma delegation. (Depending on what you meant by "birther") The reason you didn't see much "Birther" stuff was because most people regard that ship as having already sailed, and there are more imminent battles to fight. Oklahoma is working on making it impossible to get on our state's ballot unless an original birth certificate is shown and it must be signed by a witness to the event, not a government official claiming the "event" happened.

  • jester||

    Did Double D prove his cred to you? How easy was that? Did it make you feel good that a black man was prowlin' the site?

    Well. Fuck you. This site is cool because I don't know who the fuck you are. You can make any shit up about yourself and I wouldn't know.

    If Double D says he's black, I don't give a shit, because for all I know he's Lonewacko spoofing us (though I know that's not true because Lonewacko ain't smart enough to do that). I will judge DD on his comments. But he did divulge he was black. That's his bad. Don't hate him for it. Just sayin', bad policy.

  • jester||

    Mad Max (aka Diogenes),

    Didn't know you were from Oklahoma. I should know by now, but I don't remember. Yes abortion was a huge issue for you and a lot of others. I am sure you can't wait to share.

    That OK State lost last night and Oklahoma lost to that scandalous Mormon team last week, plus a loss for Notre Dame surely has you in a tizzy.

  • jester||

    'to get on our state's ballot unless an original birth certificate is shown'

    You are certainly kidding. This is the most ridiculous waste of time and money I have seen since...er...the last floor debate in Congress. But if you are proud of that comparison , so be it.

  • saneandhappy||

    YOU RADICALS ARE ALL CRAZY!!! YOU ARE MARCHING ON OUR PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK. END OF STORY.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    You must be kidding. I welcome as many black people as possible to the libruhtarian thang. It's like seeing other black people at a metalcore concert.

    Also, I have a mustache.

  • jester||

    I think if Rodgers & Hammerstein were alive today, they would need to rework the musical for Oklahoma.
    'Poor Judd's a (Mental) Case', 'Surrey with a fringe riding in it', 'I can't say no to the GOP', 'The Farmer and the Cowman should demand a trade war', 'Many a New Deal','People Will Say We are Wack', etc.

  • jester||

    BECAUSE HE IS BLACK.

    peeps votin' 4 him
    musta bin on crack.

    Satisfied?

    Now go fuck off s&h

    you green stamp of the idiot left

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Nah. Fish tacos with grilled Talapia and shredded cabbage, hot sauce etc.

    Do you tilt them towards your face first or eat them normally?

  • alice bowie||


    Why are you so sure it is a she? My take was that the handle was a melding of Alice Cooper and David Bowie, two 70s glam rockers.


    I'm a 44yo short, bald, and funny looking hispanic guy that looks white that was born in a latin american country and came here when i was 11. I was born in a 3rd world, raised in a ghetto, and now work in investment banking and make pretty good money. I'm very grateful and love America. However, pure Americans resent me and my kind as I did take advantage of what the 'great society' had to offer. And now, I pay a little less than $109,000 per year in TAXES (including prop tax, fed, state, fica, medicare, etc.).

    I'm a social liberal and a fiscal moderate. I believe in free markets but I don't believe that I'm a libertarian since I due support many socialist concepts such as socialized pension, healthcare, police departments, and education. These are the ONLY things that I believe in socializing. I feel that the free market is the way to go for everything else.



    Alice Bowie is a character from cheech-and-chong. You can click on my link and see it.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I'm a 44yo short, bald, and funny looking hispanic guy that looks white that was born in a latin american country and came here when i was 11

    Oh, I always figured you had long black hair and animal grace.

  • alice bowie||


    Oh, I always figured you had long black hair and animal grace.


    I did...at one point.

  • jester||

    I'm a...

    TMI

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    jester, you like the whole...anonymity aspect of the internet. Would you say you liked

    Ultimate Anonymity?

  • alice bowie||

    i didn't give my name...and, i may be lying.

  • Suki||

    jester,

    I love pink tacos.

    Something we share, but I have had to swear off of them. Monogamy with a guy and whatnot.

    All,

    Has anybody done the Gaza question yet? Everything else sounds like it has been covered.

  • Suki||

    And I didn't have to use preview. Maybe Chrome users are not required?

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    What? Sometimes a taco is just a taco. ;)

  • ||

    Interesting comments above. As a child of a military family with a son in military service, I personally liked GWB. Still do, though I disliked his fiscal policies and those of his administration. Never doubted his love for, or commitment to, this country. Voted for McCain because I liked Palin and he was the lesser of two evils compared to Obama--and no, it didn't have anything to do with race. I wouldn't care if Obama was purple. He's a SOCIALIST, and he surrounds himself with advisors who are communists/socialists, for heaven's sake! Had I been able to, I would have been in DC this weekend. We need to clean house.

  • Suki||

    Ok, ok, I will ask the Gaza question.

    Where would you rather live? In Gaza or between the cheeks of Obama's ass?

  • jester||

    kidsmom,

    TMI

    Suki,

    TMI

    Suki,

    not a choice I'll ever have to make. Invalid question.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    jester,

    I cried during A.I.*? TMI?

    There are also about 3 or 4 other movies I cried during, but can't remember any of them right now except for Glory.

    alice bowie,

    Still, has the fly ever tried to break your balls?

  • ||

    Sorry if someone addressed this statement already, but I about snorted coffee out my nose:

    "I did belive that libertarians would prefer no government intervention into an interstate commerce matter...like slavery." - Alice Bowie

    Um, only the most calloused of cynics would call slavery an "interstate commerce matter." On the contrary, it is a human liberty matter, something libertarians are intimately concerned with.

    Most libertarians would agree that government does have a few limited roles that ought to fill. Ensuring liberty is (at least in principle) one of those things.

  • jester||

    ART-P.O.G.,

    yes, of course, TMI.

    keep your personal life to yourself. I really want to respect you.

  • smartass sob||

    @Art-P.O.G.

    Do you tilt them towards your face first or eat them normally?

    I dunno - normally, I guess....like a hotdog, starting at one end. Why? We are talking about food, right?

  • Suki||

    jester,

    are you actually newer than me here? the Gaza question is a running joke started by MNG, but he wasn't joking while everybody else was laughing.

  • Suki||

    I dunno - normally, I guess....like a hotdog, starting at one end.

    Ah, sausage analogies for sexual innuendo are the only ones that will apply to me forever more of my days with beloved boyfriend. Sigh.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Why? We are talking about food, right?

    Sorry, my mind always goes taco---->soft taco----> sex-act-that-shall-go-unnamed.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Oh, I see what you did, smartass sob.

  • Suki||

    APOG,

    STOP! Memory lane is full of sharp stones and broken glass!

  • Gyro Captain||

    They always underestimate and underreport the size of the crowd at the March For Life, too. Plus they should add the number of all the fetuses in the country who can't march because they're held hostage in the womb.

  • smartass sob||

    Not with cabbage and hot sauce, dude...especially not hot sauce. ;-)

  • Basement dweller||

    John C. Randolph | September 12, 2009, 10:00pm

    install slashcode


    NO.

  • ||

    Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is. Without talk radio boosting this rally, there is no way that many people would have showed up. Our local talk guys can whip up a rally of a few thousand at any time.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    STOP! Memory lane is full of sharp stones and broken glass!

    So you get severe tire damage driving down memory lane? :)


    Plus they should add the number of all the fetuses in the country who can't march because they're held hostage in the womb.

    I think this is tongue-in-cheek, but even if not it's funny as hell.

  • jester||

    "jester,

    are you actually newer than me here? the Gaza question is a running joke started by MNG, but he wasn't joking while everybody else was laughing."


    I have been around for say five years, but I take vacations, sometimes long ones. So I prolly missed the MNG thing although I am familiar with MNG. Is Lefiti still around? I always thought MNG and Lefiti were the selfsame.

  • jester||

    now let's see if talk radio can actually wake up Americans instead of stoke partisan fires.

  • MNG||

    I don't know what is more foolish:
    1. Believing Suki is a female (female libertarians exist only in Libertopia where they live alongside unicorns [privately owned unicorns of course who are therefore plentiful and not endangered as property owners carefully guard their well being])
    2. Believing Suki has a mind capable of post-middle school humor or thought

  • MNG||

    jester
    The "Gaza question" came about from one of the hundred thousand threads that Moynihan posted about how Venezula or Cuba were hellholes needing to be immediately be invaded and occupied (Moynihan supported the Iraq War in its early days when he knew he kind of had to in order to suck at the right-leaning teat) but refused to offer nary a bit of criticism of the human rights and property abuses committed by Israel in Gaza and the Occupied Territory (in fact Moynihan has gone on AIPAC funded junkets but more importantly knows that any criticism of Israel will immediately lose you those right-leaning folks mentioned above).

    So I said look, who here would rather live in Gaza or the West Bank than Venezula? No sane informed person would. My point was made.

    But right leaning people really go frothy at the mouth when you mention criticism of Israel, concern for the human and property rights of Palestinians in any way is a terrible offense that only an evil or foolish person would engage in, so hence the running joke from the right leaning 14 year old boy section. What's funny about it is that Suki is someone who yearns even more pathetically to just be accepted by the right-leaning crowd here, s/he obviouslyu knows jack or cares about politics, but tries to say the "cute" things that will curry favor with that crowd.

    At least Moynihan is well read.

  • MNG||

    Moynihan regularly referenced reports by Human Rights Watch about the shabby state of such rights in Venezula. I'm a member of HRW and while, yes, we work hard to condemn the thuggish actions of Chavez there I also know that HRW has plainly documented as bad or worse human, property and economic rights violations committed by Israel (at gunpoint) in dealing with the Occupied Territories. Yet no word of criticism from Moynihan.

    I linked the HRW annual reports for the Occupied Territories and Venezula and said "who would choose to live in the former?" My point being that if it is worse there, why the silence from Moynihan on the former and the constant soapboxing on the latter?

  • Suki||

    Aw, MNG, you are making me blush?

    Where would you rather live? In Gaza or between the cheeks of Obama's ass?

    We all can plainly see his answer to that one without him answering.

  • Suki||

    Aw, MNG, you are making me blush?.

    Fixed before MNG refutes all of my arguments with a punctuation correction. Whew!

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I always thought MNG and Lefiti were the selfsame.

    Not even close. If Lefiti ever makes a lucid, rational argument it will be his first one. None of the regular leftists here will clame that fella (Lefiti).

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    now let's see if talk radio can actually wake up Americans instead of stoke partisan fires.

    That would be something. I'm a fan of Tavis Smiley, but I'm trying to think of the last talk radio I listened to other than NPR (and NPR is very good IMO).

  • Tom Perkins||

    @ alice bowie

    It widely known you are an ignorant liar, but not every one here might know this is one of your lies.

    "In the early 80's Reagan decided to pull and accounting scheme where they started including the fund in the General US Treasury to show a lower deficit...For the Arms race and some other things."

    LJB began the unified budgeting, and there never has been an account from which only Socialist Insecurity checks could be cut.

    It has always been a Ponzi scheme and a slush fund for Congress.

  • Suki||

    It has always been a Ponzi scheme and a slush fund for Congress.

    It's time that people stop trashing Ponzi. He had a really cool car and a dreamy house!

  • jester||

    Thanks for the update MNG, I think. But really, there's no country I'd rather live in than the united states, but i criticize it all the time. If you are familiar with the tragedy King Lear, I think you'd understand the trouble you get into when you have to compare and then declare love. Criticism is good and it is usually selective to the parts not liked. It doesn't mean that you don't see some sort of upside. So your analogy is essentially a false one.

    As for Suki's sex/sexual orientation, it is not of interest to me. If I was looking for a hookup I wouldn't be at reason.

  • ||

    why the silence from Moynihan on the former and the constant soapboxing on the latter?

    I can't speak for him, but I just realized that there are dozens of human rights violations on which you have failed to comment, at least to my knowledge. For our benefit, would you mind making a comprehensive list, offering your thoughts on each? Then no one would be able to accuse you of the same.

  • ||

    Just to make it clear ABC NEVER said the cowd was 2 million people:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=8558055

  • Bingo||

    I like fish tacos.

  • Bingo||

    Does anyone really think its possible to bring meaningful reform to DC anymore?

  • E. Joyce||

    Definitions: fascism: --a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Virtually impossible to be one while trying to get two different parties to behave like adults and work as a team. socialism: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state. Virtually impossible to keep trying to make sure you keep the house you own right now, keep the banks from taking it away from you and be a socialist at the same time. That would be an oxymoron. Communism: 1) forced version of socialism OR as defined in Little Rock. Arkansas while Eisenhower was President and likely how the birthers and teabaggers define it today, which is their real issue: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg

  • ||

    It was not Glenn Beck's protest. It was America's protest! And it is really starting to piss me off that he and others are starting to claim this as fact. Talking about rewriting history!

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    E. Joyce: those people were morons. What's your point again? That wasn't exactly lucid.

  • ||

    These people had only two major beefs with GWB:

    immigration

    the "bailouts" when he was the lamest of lame ducks

    Obviously I agreed with their bitching about the latter, but this "I disagreed with GWB!" blabber from them is pure after the fact bullshit.

    You can romanticize them into throwbacks to the American Revolution, but if many of them had their way it would be more French, despite their embrace of "freedom fries".

    Sorry, I am in no hurry to make common cause with an angry mob of disproportionately evangelical whites. I have been around these types all my life and find them repulsive. If you want to adopt some bullshit egalitarianism to romanticize them, well go ahead. Most demagogues do, so you won't be alone.

  • Neu Mejican||

    E. Joyce,

    Wait, are you saying that Obama is not a fascist?

    Hyperbole among protesters attempting to demonize their opposition...unheard of.

  • ||

    Alice Bowie,

    Socialized pension, healthcare, police departments, and education can all be effectively handled by the state.

    In fact, to some extent all of those are.

    Most libertarians leaning conservatives, support the original intentions of the constitution and believe the federal government should play no role in any of those things.

    So supporting a state hand in those things is not a litmus test to the conservative movement. What you have to ask yourself, is WHO do you want providing those functions.

    Do you want your state and local government to run social services, or do you want the federal government to run social services.

    The constitution clearly states that powers not specifically mentioned are left to the states. I am a big states right believer. You want socialized medicine, legalized pot, or a chicken in every pot? Talk to your governor.

  • ||

    jester | September 13, 2009, 5:26am | #
    Joshua Corning vs Makers of Ambien


    I have no idea what this means..

    If it is an insult i say go fuck yourself
    If it is a joke i say i don;t get it
    if it is praise then i say ty but i don;t really deserve it

  • MNG||

    Suki
    I realize to one with your capacities there are two kinds of people: those who criticize everything Obama does and those who are "up his ass", and that people with your capacities, upon meeting someone who does any defending of Obama, though also criticizing him often, not falling into those two neat categories, must go into the "up his ass" category. Of course, I also realize that to one with your capacities "pull my finger" is the height of wit and humor...

    jester
    If you livein country A and criticize country B for stated reasons C, and country E is just as much as or worse of an offender on reason C, but you never criticize them, then I think it is unfair to ask "WTF?"

    Of course, when B is the current boogeyman of the right and E is the current darling, and the person doing the criticizing panders to the right, then it all makes some sense, right?

  • ||

    Thanks episiarch, I wondered who the group that put Obama over the top in the popular vote was.

    If the police have really declined to give an estimate of the crowd for the rally, does that tell us anything?

    Tim Cavanaugh, In 1981, under Reagan, Congress passed legislation allowing borrowing from the Social Security funds.

    If what Mr. Wilson said to Mr. Obama is to be considered deplorable and an apology demanded, then what Mr. Obama said to those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco should be considered the same way and he should apologize to us.

    In the first 6-1/2 months of this administration, Mr. Obama was out of this country 14 times and accomplished little more than family vacations which included what was the equivalent of stopping by to say hello to relatives, but nothing achieved as far as his job was concerned. His 32 czars, many of whom don't know up from down and are as questionable as the people some of the bloggers refer to, are doing all of his work. Now there is talk or running Hillary again and I am neither a republican nor a democrat, but when our choices come down to a product of Chicago politics and someone whose lies and corruption are well documented all over the internet, in books and by the media as it occurred (who conveniently ignored all of it in the last election and probably will again). I can say to Michelle:"For the first time, I am ashamed to be an American".

  • hmm||

    If the police have really declined to give an estimate of the crowd for the rally, does that tell us anything?

    No. Most departments refuse to give estimates these days. For obvious reasons.

  • ||

    If what Mr. Wilson said to Mr. Obama is to be considered deplorable and an apology demanded, then what Mr. Obama said to those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco should be considered the same way and he should apologize to us.

    because you think "those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco" were sitting in a presidential address to a joint session of Congress when Obama said whatever he said that so offended you ?

  • Tony||

    Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is.



    Yeah it was pretty powerful in Rwanda too. Don't know I've heard "those liberal cockroaches" yet, but some of the things Beck says is comparable.

  • </||

    Glenn Beck is more libertarian than Kerry Howley.

  • ||

    Unfortunately Glenn Beck is a clown. I tried watching his show for the first time a couple days ago. After about 15 minutes of haphazardly switching between asking vague questions and spewing rhetorical statements that could have supported any philosophy about anything I changed the channel. Though to be fair I've never heard his radio show, although I don't know why he'd be much different.

  • ||

    because you think "those of us who oppose his healthcare fiasco" were sitting in a presidential address to a joint session of Congress when Obama said whatever he said that so offended you ?

    What does that have to do anything?

    Obama works for us, not the other way around. In most jobs lying to your boss gets you fired when it's found out. Unless Obama thinks honesty is above his pay grade.

  • ||

    Don't know I've heard "those liberal cockroaches" yet

    I could call into a radio show you listen to and use that phrase, if you like.

  • ||

    The number of addled white people that turned out because of corporate "grassroots" organizing was smaller than the number of racially diverse, sincere and smarter people that turned out for the Michael Jackson memorial at Staples Center in Los Angeles

  • hmm||

    Tony | September 13, 2009, 5:16pm | #

    Attending these rallies has brought one truth front and center to me -- how powerful talk radio is.



    Yeah it was pretty powerful in Rwanda too. Don't know I've heard "those liberal cockroaches" yet, but some of the things Beck says is comparable.



    Wasn't it the Hutu government that carried out the genocide against the the Tutsi population? Kind of a a failed analogy. Especially given the amount of air time the current administration has. I'm starting to fucking dream Obama I see him so much.

  • ||

    What does that have to do anything?

    Well, there are rules about how people are required to behave in such a session. And if Mr Wilson doesn't want to obey those rules, he must accept the consequences.

    There are no such rules out here.

    On the other hand, the question of health care reform was pretty much settled back in November. And it was settled in Obama's favor. "Elections have consequences," is what Republicans used to say, back in the day. Maye you should revisit the notion.

  • ||



    Pardon my italics.

  • Tony||

    Wasn't it the Hutu government that carried out the genocide against the the Tutsi population? Kind of a a failed analogy.



    Agitprop always smells the same no matter who is using it. Will spreading lies meant to make the ignorant afraid only become wrong once it's taken to the level of violence?

  • hmm||

    Agitprop always smells the same no matter who is using it. Will spreading lies meant to make the ignorant afraid only become wrong once it's taken to the level of violence?



    So you believe everything Obama and his administration say? You actually think calling town hall goers and people that are dissenting against current are actually terrorists? Otherwise I stand by my point. It's a failed analogy.

    I chose to ignore the retarded hyperbole about violence and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I guess you are dumbe enough to equate a peaceful march on the US Capitol and the genocide in Rwanda. Grats on a new and improved Godwin's Law of R.

  • michaelburns||

    Hey Matt,

    You're gonna have to start charging for these comments... lol.

  • $20ForHeadDontCum||

    I'm starting to fucking dream Obama I see him so much.

    I know exactly what you mean. He's even starting to push his way into my masturbation fantasies.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    I watched some of the demonstration on CPSAN.

    The best sign that I saw anyone holding said

    "Charity is not a Constitutional function of government."

  • ||

    If the patriotic Americans' efforts on 9-12 are ignored by congress, what is our recourse? HR 3200, regardless if amendments are added to control illegal alien use or to provide abortion limits, will still infringe upon our economic freedom and civil liberties. And just as the courts have used federal funding to impose more open access to ER's not permitted by law, any direct involvement of the federal government in the private health care system can open it up by lawsuits and court decisions to what is supposedly outlawed.

    If an amended HR 3200 comes up in the House for a vote with the details the media indicates will remain, which directly impact our economic freedom and civil liberties, it will be time to repeat in DC the Income Tax Revolt tactics of 1999 that occurred in Tennessee. The 1999 Tax Revolt was way short of a violent insurrection as was Shay's Rebellion of 1786, however the 1999 Tax Revolt was successful in stopping the state of Tennessee from establishing an income tax. It went beyond MLK's tactics a bit, but we, the people, never played with MLK's overt, proactive tactics of civil disobedience in our anti-ObamaCare endeavors. The proof that it can work is that today TN still does not have an income tax. The TEA Party movement had better plan for a quick "assault" on DC should congress ignore the will of the people that was so visually demonstrated yesterday. See http://glennreynolds.com/?p=8 for information on the 1999 Income Tax Revolt

    I trust that conservative, moderate and libertarian freedom loving Americans, as was demonstrated and observed by me yesterday by the 1.5 million citizen activists, will act in the same responsible manner if shutting down congress is needed. We certainly showed restraint yesterday. A controlled mass of citizens cannot be stopped by government unless government is willing to react as was done in Iran recently. If that was to happen, we would certainly know the true intent of this Administration.

    While I do not wish for my blood or others to be spilled, as Thomas Jefferson said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." MLK's and others blood was spilled to give equal rights to all in America; we may have to spill some to retain those rights.

  • ||

    It's more sad than amusing that people don't attempt to be objective about how many people came out to protest on 9/12. It's not about how many were on the mall (we know about the permit restrictions) at any given time, and people come and go, so a peak number will always be less than a total number.

    I think the million-plus estimates are silly by a factor of 4. I also think the 60-70,000 estimates are silly by a factor of four in the other direction, without qualification. Based on all the video and photos that have been posted, 250,000 seems like a fair estimate of everyone that "showed up."

  • Suki||

    Obama works for us, not the other way around.

    I think you missed a memo. You must not be watching CBS, like a good citizen.

  • Cnation||

    The arguments about numbers are getting annoying. 3-400,000 tops is what I come up with time after time based on personal observations, photographic evidence, and the chart that's been going around. People need to remember that the mall was closed to us, so if you've automatically been adding in 940,000 for mall attendance like some bloggers have, you need to drop that number completely.

    There is no shame in 300,000. That's a hell of a good turnout, more then enough to get the point across that the protests have turned into a movement. We're having success. Fuck the numbers, let's continue building and moving forward.

    Some pics, in case anyone's interested:
    http://conservativenation.net/2009/09/13/pictures-from-the-9122009-taxpayer-march-on-washington/

    -Cnation

  • jmccurter||

    Why does everything have to be black or white? The color of my skin is white, but I come from twelve different nationalities,Cherokee and Chactaw Indian, French, Irish, Welch, Black Dutch, and German just to name a few. So I ask all of you to take a deep breath and put race aside for a moment. In this great country that I live in things are definantly changing, but ask yourselves in what direction. I don't want anyone spending my children and grandchildrens' money. Do you? I don't want anyone telling me what doctor I can visit. Do you? I don't want anyone telling me how to raise my children. My mother's advice will suffice in that area.
    I work hard for my money and I understand that some taxes are neccessary for our country's well being.There comes a point though when enough is enough. I do believe our country is coming to that point now. Whether it be healthcare or bailouts "We the People" should be able to choose. That is what our country was founded on, and that is what I, as an American, am scared of losing. The choice! That is what makes this country what it is. That is why we are different from the rest of the world.
    It is not about hatred or racism. It is simply everyday Americans like you and I having a choice as a collective people. No one person should be able to take that from us. Everyone has their own voice, I would hate not to be able to hear all of yours.
    Thank you for your time.

  • </a||

    Unfortunately Glenn Beck is a clown. I tried watching his show for the first time a couple days ago.

    Haha! Glenn Beck is dumb like a fox! Think of him as a political version of Columbo. Just when you're ready to dismiss him as the consummate boob, he turns around and says, "Just one more question...."

  • ||

    My only problem with these "patriots" is how absent they've been from the gross spending excesses of the last eight years. The present concern seems to be based primarily on the plan for health care reform. A reform, which, pessismistically, will cost 1.2 trillion dollars over the next ten years. Half as much as Bush's trophy war in Iraq, and half as much as the tax cuts for the most fortunate among us. So enriching billionaires and killing Iraqi's is more important than our own citizen's health? The skepticism of Americans about the tea baggers is based on sound reality. Delusions should at least be consistent.

  • ||

    Republicans don't get a pass from us teabaggers (yeah I was in D.C. too) but at some point do even Libs become concerned that we may be kinda running out of money and foreign suckers to buy our IOUs so we can keep the spending spree goin?

    Otherwise, why not just let the country circle the drain, and allow our currency become about as valuable as monopoly money, so we can pretend to be such compassionate people because we all have French-style "free" healthcare?

    And if Libs were concerned about Bush doubling the debt in 8 years are they now unconcerned about Obama doing it in 4?

    BTW Bush's trophy war is about over, but ObamaCare will be forever, and you can forget about it "only" costing a trillion bucks.

    HealthCare is not magically different from all other scarce goods and services in a free enterprise economy, and it won't be the last industry Obama will attempt to nationalize.

    Maybe yours will be next.

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    My impression of the 912 crowd is that it included mostly independents, then republicans and a sizable portion of democrats. Let's face it the only feasable party left is the republican party. John Boehner has shown that he will scrutinize government spending and that he will simply not go along with the government taking over private issues. I applaud him. If you look at the crowd you saw young folks, lots of them, women and men and all ranges of ages. One thing I saw was a work ethic spirit of friendly folks. WHATEVER WE DO LETS SUPPORT ONLY 1 PARTY FOR ELECTION AND NOT A ROSS PEROT CANDIDATE THAT ALLOWED CLINTON IN OFFICE. AMERICA CAN'T AFFORD ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF BARAC. SO IF YOU HEAR CODY FROM FOX NEWS TALKING ABOUT HATING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS AND SAYING LETS HAVE AN INDEPENDENT PARTY OR AT LEAST IMPLYING THAT LETS SAY NO TO CODY AND NO TO ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF BARAC.

  • ||

    Thanks for going and representing me in spirit. Awesome to watch from home, heartening to say the least.

  • ||

    Alex Pareene must certainly qualify for the Jackassery award of the month. Still, some sympathy is needed. The poor poppet writes for Gawker, which means he must have more self-esteem issues than a dozen Britney Spears clones.

  • emjem1963||

    I was also there for 4 hours. If there were 30,000 people there I'd be surprised:
    .
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/emjem1963
    .
    I've been at many rallies on the Mall, most with official Park Police estimates. This rally was way smaller than ones I've been to that were estimated at 50,000.

  • patience dogwood||

    This was a nicely written article, and it stands out in the sea of those who were against the rally on September 12th. No one has written about the entire extent of this rally, nor what it really meant. I went to the rally from 9 am until 7 pm once all the speeches were done.
    The people I talked to touched my heart. Their stories and their beliefs represented the tribulations which Americans are going through everyday. They were so impassioned about this bill that they traveled from almost every state, even Alaska and Hawaii, to show Congress that they care about what that bill says.

    I did not see a single 'terrorist' at this rally. Yes there were some extremists, but you will get that on every side of the issue.
    I would just like to know how people can call constitutionalists anything close to terrorism.

    More than anything, I saw concerned Americans.
    I saw brave military veterans parade proudly through towards the Capitol. Many of whom were confined to wheelchairs with limbs missing because of the sacrifices they made for their country. In return they ask their country for the slightest of reparations.

    I saw mothers and fathers and grandparents, many of whom had no party affiliation. Their ideology is the concern for their entire family.

    I saw many college students who work and go to school full-time so that they may see their hopes and dreams come true. I myself am struggling to help pay for my school bills.
    One sign in particular that caught my eye was a young woman in her early 20s with a sign that said "Barack I'm Ba-roke"

    So to all of those who are skeptical about this march, please hear this.

    An estimated 1.5 million Americans came to this peaceful protest in order to voice against a bill which would severely impact their lives. They came to represent those who would not. A lot of people I talked to said they had at least 4 or 5 friends and family members that would be hurt by the bill and could not afford what it's trying to implement.

    The revolution has not been televised.

  • ||

    So how many people were there? One would think that if there were upwards of 300K that the public transportation systems and hotels would have been near capacity.

    I'm seeing (alternately) 30-50K and 250-500K. The 1.5M claims are obviously rubbish.

    HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE?

  • ||

    The numbers I've heard say 60-70,000.

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/size-matters-so-do-lies.html

  • Aakash||

    Please check out Grover Norquist's reflections on the D.C. 9/12 rallies.


    A special THANKS to those who helped organize these events - whether in D.C., here in Illinois, or elsewhere throughout our great nation!!

  • ||

    Obviously Reason is using unfair labor practices, by forcing Welch to actually go to the march, talking to people and writing down what was said and what he saw.

    How can other media outlets compete with this sort of routine? Unfair.

  • doover||

    i would try to estimate the crowd size for myself... except that it seems this little story is buried. however, you should know that i am fully up to speed on the critical Kanye/Taylor debacle from every angle--BUSINESS AS USUAL.

    when people look back and say that they wished they had paid more attention, it will be too late. but, as long as everything is making someone FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL good, that is what matters most.

  • doover||

    KATEC--

    you made my miserable day, thanks!

  • Mike||

    I was at this event with you and your run down of the event is very accurate. I would put the Number attending in the high 100k's. But there were people coming and going constantly.

    To those trying to say that I, as an objectivist and atheist, are being swindled into working with religious bible thumpers backed up by multi-national corporations. Go F**k yourself you stuck up ignorant jack offs.

    I had a good time, and I deal regularly with a group that is mostly conservative. They don't pound bibles down my throat and often agree with me on religion/state issues.

    This event will be remembered as a turning point in small "L" libertarian circles and future discussions about the history of freedom and liberty based movements in this country. It's time some of you got the stick out of you ass and worked with people that might challenge your world view. Or just continue to have pointless arguments in forums like trolls, whatever.

    Thank you reason for a very fair and balanced article on the march.

    It's the Economy Stupid.

  • emjem1963||

    Here's photos I took of the event:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/emjem1963/3937478887/

    and video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcQ8kmxrujs

  • deathbymedia||

    I have done my own study base on devised methodology and calculation which you can find here:

    http://deathbymedia.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/912-washington-dc-tea-party-rally-crowd-estimation/

    It's backed by evidence (pictures and clips) and determining the boundaries of the protesters and calculation of final tally derived from the density of the crowd at each given block. My calculus puts the figures around 130k up to 160k.

  • 912Photos||

    Thanks for your coverage on the 9/12 DC Tea Party. I was there, too, covering the event as a freelance photographer. I invite you to visit my website, which contains an extensive photo gallery and commentary on the event. I believe the gallery shows a range of photos not typically seen of the event. I welcome all comments.

    Thanks very much.

    Deb Phillips
    Documenting America's 9|12 Spirit
    http://912photos.com

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