Going Gay, But Not All of a Sudden

Jesse Walker | August 20, 2009

Ryan Sager makes a significant point about public support for gay marriage:

We all know there's a gap between how old folks feel about same-sex marriage and how young folks feel. What you might not quite grasp is just how tremendous that gap is....If people over 65 in each state made the laws, 0 states would have gay marriage; if people under 30 made the laws, 38 states would have gay marriage.

"This is a generational battle," Sager says, "and that means the younger generation wins...eventually."

Comments

WWJGD|8.20.09 @ 3:23PM|#

And people criticize Obama for not doing enough for gay rights.

Clearly his death panels are attempting to speed up this process.

|8.20.09 @ 3:24PM|#

Getting Gay with Kids is here/To spread the word, and bring you cheer

<strike>strike through</strike|8.20.09 @ 3:26PM|#

the younger generation wins...eventually

It has always been thus.

Brian Sorgatz|8.20.09 @ 3:27PM|#

Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, that's for sure.

|8.20.09 @ 3:28PM|#

Maybe or maybe not. Maybe it is just this generation that is gung ho for gay rights. The next generation might not be so cool with it. Further, hispanics and blacks are not too keen for the idea. It is mostly a phenonena of upper class white kids. Maybe they are the vanguard of the future. Or maybe they will get more conservative as they get older (most people do) and maybe the increasing numbers of various socially conservative ethnic groups will drown them out even if they don't.

I am not saying that is a good thing. But I am not that optmistic.

|8.20.09 @ 3:32PM|#

"This is a generational battle," Sager says, "and that means the younger generation wins...eventually.

Unless they change their minds as they get older. Don't expect all of us whippersnappers who today favor dismantling Social Security to feel the same way once it is time to get our money back.

|8.20.09 @ 3:33PM|#

I think it depends on the issue. For racism, civil rights, and gay marriage and things of that nature that lead to more equality, younger generations eventually "win," but that won't happen with everything.

If my generation of 30 somethings eventually allows Social Security to no longer burden the taxpayer, I'll be pleased and surprised. The current group of old folks won't let it, but when we get there, we'll want free shit, too. Lord knows we're not getting any of it now.

Father Guido Sarducci|8.20.09 @ 3:35PM|#

""This is a generational battle," Sager says, "and that means the younger generation wins...eventually."

Oh right. Because eveything the Baby Boomers stood for in 1967 has come to pass.

As people age, their views change.

Father Guido Sarducci|8.20.09 @ 3:37PM|#

"Lord knows we're not getting any of it now."

Your sugar is subsidized

The Angry Optimist|8.20.09 @ 3:37PM|#

of course, not every view of yoots carries over into their old age, but I think that this analysis is correct: people are just plain less homophobic than they used to. I doubt that's going to change.

|8.20.09 @ 3:42PM|#

but I think that this analysis is correct: people are just plain less homophobic than they used to. I doubt that's going to change.

Agreed.

Lot's of beliefs change as you get older, but "the gay" isn't going to all of a sudden become icky (like it currently is for many older people) to a generation of people who have grown up exposed to it (in media, in their social circles).

gay recruiter|8.20.09 @ 3:43PM|#

If we get our way, there won't be a younger generation, thank you very much.

<strike>strike through</strike|8.20.09 @ 3:43PM|#

Further, hispanics and blacks are not too keen for the idea

Da' Bible sez da' gays is bad, so da' gays must be bad, 'cause da' Bible don't lie.

|8.20.09 @ 3:46PM|#

people are just plain less homophobic than they used to

Absolutely true. People are just so much more used to the fact that there are gay people around them, and it's not going to reverse. I blame Will and Grace.

|8.20.09 @ 3:46PM|#

I've said this before. Gay marriage isn't about liberal versus conservative. It's about tradition versus change. Okay, tradition versus change is just another way of saying liberal vs conservative, but it's not the politics, it's the attitudes. When you're young everything is change so it's no big deal, but the older you get the less change you want.

I've just entered middle age and am starting to feel this myself. Why would I want to track all of my friends with their cellphones? Why do I have to abandon Perl for Ruby? WTF is up with everyone getting tattoos? Why won't the Federal budget fit in my calculator anymore?

The problem with gay marriage is that it came out of nowhere. In the space of essentially one year, it went from being several lightyears distant from anyone's radars, to being *THE* definititive litmus test for enlightenment.

Quick Quiz|8.20.09 @ 3:54PM|#

"Why do I have to abandon Perl for Ruby? "

What is this in reference to?

anarch|8.20.09 @ 3:55PM|#

My definitive test for enlightenment is the emancipation of marriage from the political sphere.

Jesse Walker|8.20.09 @ 3:55PM|#

As people age, their views change.

Sager addresses this argument in the post, noting that one thing that drives acceptance of gay marriage is just knowing more openly gay people, and that this too is much more common among younger Americans.

I'll add that there's a significant difference between attitudes toward gays and attitudes toward other many other social issues. People who were carefree about drugs in their own lives might revise their opinions if they find out their kids are smoking pot. But if you find out your kid is gay, that's likely to make you more tolerant, not less.

|8.20.09 @ 3:56PM|#

What is this in reference to?

Scripting languages. Ruby on Rails is the hot thing right now.

|8.20.09 @ 3:58PM|#

The problem with gay marriage is that it came out of nowhere. In the space of essentially one year, it went from being several lightyears distant from anyone's radars, to being *THE* definititive litmus test for enlightenment.

Brandybuck, DOMA was passed in 1996. It's basically been kicking around since the early 70s.

|8.20.09 @ 4:00PM|#

Same ting going on with jah airb, sez Silver:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/why-marijuana-legalization-is-gaining.html

|8.20.09 @ 4:02PM|#

Wait until they see a bunch of old gay guys kissing. There's an ick factor force multiplier.

|8.20.09 @ 4:04PM|#

Legality doesn't necessarily get changed just because attitudes do. Lots of people voted for Obama or thought he was the lesser of two evils because he was sold as being friendly to marijuana legalization. Then he took office and those people are left scratching their heads.

I'd honestly have Bob Barr fighting for that topic. He was a drug warrior if ever there was one, but he was either convinced we should all be allowed to consume whatever we want, OR he knew he'd have no support from his circle without changing his tune. Obama knows he's got those hippie kids no matter what. He might think he's got gays in his corner, too. He could be wrong on that. It's good to see they are vocal about their disappointment in him.

|8.20.09 @ 4:05PM|#

"Why do I have to abandon Perl for Ruby? "

What is this in reference to?

Computer programming.

Abandoning Perl for Ruby on Rails.

Ha! Ha! BrandyBuck is a computer nerd!! :)

|8.20.09 @ 4:06PM|#

Wait until they see a bunch of old gay guys kissing. There's an ick factor force multiplier.

C'mon! Everybody gets mooshy when they see a meemaw and peepaw smoochin'. Twarn't be no different when it's a meemaw/meemaw kiss or a peepaw/peepaw kiss.

|8.20.09 @ 4:13PM|#

Everybody gets mooshy when they see a meemaw and peepaw smoochin'.

Ew. Thank goodness I'll never be old. The first heart attack is going to take me out. I got maybe 10 years left, tops.

|8.20.09 @ 4:13PM|#

...if people under 30 made the laws, 38 states would have gay marriage.

Is anyone else disturbed to find out that there are still twelve states in which will be dominated by ignorant fucktards for another two generations?

Tony|8.20.09 @ 4:14PM|#

I think the idea that people get more conservative as they age is exaggerated. I don't know that my grandma is significantly more conservative now than she was at 20. It's just that the world when she was 20 was a much more conservative place.

|8.20.09 @ 4:19PM|#

"Because eveything the Baby Boomers stood for in 1967 has come to pass."

According to my parents, all that peace, pot, free love, hippie crap was a small minority of young people in 1967. It just got blown out of proportion by Hollywood glamorization of it. Sort of like how more people claim to have gone to Woodstock than possible.

|8.20.09 @ 4:21PM|#

Tony, you get more conservative.

Since I bought a house, my interest in my neighbors lawn care habits has gone up exponentially, for one small example. I understand why people join Homeowners associations now. I worry about the college kids next door lowering my property values.

And I'm 28.

|8.20.09 @ 4:21PM|#

"Is anyone else disturbed to find out that there are still twelve states in which will be dominated by ignorant fucktards for another two generations?"

One if Florida, so predicting ignorant f*cktard domination for only two more generations is a bit optimistic.

|8.20.09 @ 4:22PM|#

One is Florida....

|8.20.09 @ 4:26PM|#

WHA-WHA
I am the Lindburgh baby!

Quick Quiz|8.20.09 @ 4:27PM|#

STFU, Tony!

Quick Quiz|8.20.09 @ 4:29PM|#

"Brandybuck, DOMA was passed in 1996. It's basically been kicking around since the early 70s."

Damn you Bill Clinton!

|8.20.09 @ 4:32PM|#

Grandpa Simpson,

Shut the fuck up or we'll cancel your Matlock and Golden Girl re-runs!

JB|8.20.09 @ 4:36PM|#

My definitive test for enlightenment is the emancipation of marriage from the political sphere.

Agree, but there is a huge percentage of the population that wants the government to regulate and bless their lifestyle choices.

Sick fuckers.

|8.20.09 @ 5:15PM|#

Tony, you get more conservative.

Personally, I've gotten a bit more libertarian.

As I've gotten older, I've realized that more and more strangers tend to want to stick their nose in my business. Like neighbors and the government code enforcement officers.

Also being on the board of my condo association made more libertarian -- people are always complaining about the neighbors and how what they are doing shouldn't be allowed.

Fucking busybodies.

Slap the Enlightened!|8.20.09 @ 5:20PM|#

Sager addresses this argument in the post, noting that one thing that drives acceptance of gay marriage is just knowing more openly gay people, and that this too is much more common among younger Americans.

Dude, if you think there was any shortage of openly gay people in the 1970's, you just weren't there.

jtuf|8.20.09 @ 5:24PM|#

Brian Sorgatz | August 20, 2009, 3:27pm | #

Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, that's for sure.

Age and wisdom are correlated, but I'm not sure in which direction the causality goes.

Jesse Walker|8.20.09 @ 5:26PM|#

Dude, if you think there was any shortage of openly gay people in the 1970's, you just weren't there.

That doesn't contradict Ryan's claim, Slap. Here's what he wrote:

While there's more contour to this, dropping off at about age 55, people say they know no gay people - and, surprise, they also oppose gay marriage. Young people know a lot of gay people, they support gay marriage.

Unless all of our gay friends are going somewhere between now and when we get to our 60s - aliens? a very angry Jesus? - I don't think many people my age are going to go backward on this issue.

|8.20.09 @ 5:27PM|#

Dude, if you think there was any shortage of openly gay people in the 1970's, you just weren't there.

Dude, if you think there wasn't a generational difference in just how icky the 1970s gay people were perceived, you just weren't there.

|8.20.09 @ 5:31PM|#

Tony, you get more conservative.

Since I bought a house, my interest in my neighbors lawn care habits has gone up exponentially, for one small example. I understand why people join Homeowners associations now. I worry about the college kids next door lowering my property values.

And I'm 28.

I'm not sure coming to appreciate a homeowners association is comparable to becoming more of a bigot as you age. What does happen I think is the attitudes you acquire as a younger adult become less malleable as you age. Naturally you become more conservative relative to the rest of society. Even if people become more racist or homophobic as they age, it certainly can't be the case that the phenomenon is all that strong since society as a whole has become less so and hasn't swung backward.

jtuf|8.20.09 @ 5:34PM|#

I think there is a generational shift in what rights for gays mean. In the 1970's allowing gay sex was part of the sexual revolution. For the heterosexual man in those times, saying you support the rights of gays was a great segway into sugesting a swing club to visit. That generation isn't too insterested in allowing gay marriage. By the 1990's rights for gays were about equality. In that context, marriage equality is a logical part of the package.

Slap the Enlightened!|8.20.09 @ 5:43PM|#

That doesn't contradict Ryan's claim, Slap.

No, it doesn't. Mostly because he isn't claiming anything, he pulling assumptions out of his ass.

I'm over 50 and I knew a lot of gay people when I was young (still do). It's not something that mysteriously happened in the 21st century. (See "Disco")

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if you can find an opinion poll from those times, the trend would still be consistent. Young people -that is, today's old people - were more receptive to gay rights than old people. And while I can't find any polls that old online at the moment, I sure as hell remember seeing them at the time.

Sorry, but until you produce any evidence that today's young people are significantly more "enlightened" than their predecessors, you're simply engaging in wishful thinking.

Sviluppo|8.20.09 @ 5:45PM|#

Spend enough time around large groups of old people and you'll find plenty that still haven't come to terms with interracial marriage, and who grew up in a time when it was perfectly acceptable to kill a black man for lovin' on a white woman, or if the races were reversed, to send the black woman away and refuse to publicly acknowledge the kid (see Thurmond, Strom). Contrast her experience to that of our recently elected president.

But a lot of these old folks now have multiracial great-grandkids, and some deal with it and some sit around crying all the time. Hell, I meet old people who still get upset about mixed "Baptist-Methodist" marriages.

Same thing with gays. Talk to guys over 60, and they think about an abomination that was illegal for most of their lives and that they grew up in a time when it was socially acceptable to beat the crap out of gays. Talk to guys under 40, and many of them will tell you that two women kissing is quite possibly the hottest thing on earth.

Kids today get to be around normal, psychologically healthy gay people, since it's no longer in fashion to beat, medicate, or pray gays into straightness or hiding. To them it becomes as little an issue as the mixed race kid in class. They simply don't care.

Rich|8.20.09 @ 5:45PM|#

I think the idea that people get more conservative as they age is exaggerated.

No -- the older you are, the greater your chances of experiencing a mugging. ;-)

As I've gotten older, I've realized that more and more strangers tend to want to stick their nose in my business.

This is Wisdom.

Jesse Walker|8.20.09 @ 6:06PM|#

I'm over 50 and I knew a lot of gay people when I was young (still do). It's not something that mysteriously happened in the 21st century.

No one's claiming it was, Slap. But you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize that more gays are out today, that the ones who live openly as gay are much more likely to do so outside of gay ghettoes, that they face much less public intolerance, and that they're much more likely to be openly gay while living lives that are otherwise the height of traditional bourgeois normality.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if you can find an opinion poll from those times, the trend would still be consistent. Young people -that is, today's old people - were more receptive to gay rights than old people.

Now who's pulling assumptions out of his ass? In the '70s "gay rights" meant repealing sodomy laws. If you want to argue that nothing's changed, you'll have to show me a poll from 30 years ago that shows a comparable level of support for gay marriage. Good luck.

|8.20.09 @ 6:12PM|#

No -- the older you are, the greater your chances of experiencing a mugging. ;-)

That's pretty insightful.

|8.20.09 @ 6:36PM|#

I'm lost here. I'm old, in an interracial marriage for 35 years, absolutely can't get excited about what my neighbors do, as long as they don't shoot in my direction. Why would I care who they marry, since my first time around wasn't that great either? Why would I care what they smoke or ingest? I am far more liberal than my own children and I'm also aware that you younger folks are carrying me piggyback. I am of the opinion that as we age we realize that those things we may have thought were important when we were young aren't really so important at all.

Slap the Enlightened!|8.20.09 @ 6:45PM|#

But you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize that more gays are out today, that the ones who live openly as gay are much more likely to do so outside of gay ghettoes, that they face much less public intolerance, and that they're much more likely to be openly gay while living lives that are otherwise the height of traditional bourgeois normality.

Given that your claim and Sager's essentially amounts to "to know them is to love them", that's hardly germane. The point is that we always did know them. The fact that there are now 50 openly gay people in my neighborhood whereas in 1979 only 10 of them were out hardly makes a difference - gays were still out in sufficient numbers that you would have to have lived on a desert island to not have had direct experience with them.

I mean, there are more microwave ovens now than there were in 1979, too. But I think it's pretty safe to say few people in 1979 would have had any problem recognizing one.

|8.20.09 @ 6:59PM|#

"Brandybuck, DOMA was passed in 1996. It's basically been kicking around since the early 70s."

Maybe it was being promoted in places, but gay marriage wasn't really an issue until Gavin Newsome approved it in San Francisco. One day we were promoting domestic partnerships, and the next we were all fascists for wanting to confine gays to domestic partnerships.

anarch|8.20.09 @ 7:09PM|#

the older you are, the greater your chances of experiencing a mugging

This is true of fleet-footed children as well. :-)

|8.20.09 @ 7:42PM|#

Its not just gays. The internet opened up a world of differences that are being recognized and many accepted by the younger generations (Y and M). Of course if rampant poverty returns, alot of acceptances will likely be reversed as people will begin to look for scapegoats for their problems. Prussian Germany tolerated Jews. Nazi Germany did not.

Minorities are always at risk of relapse into persecution because what people don't know personally, people don't feel the need to accept. Conformity is always the fallback position of humanity and if you look, sound or act different than what people see around them, you're always at risk.

Matt|8.20.09 @ 7:47PM|#

Hell, I meet old people who still get upset about mixed "Baptist-Methodist" marriages.

I dated an Italian girl for a while and her parents and grandparents were uncomfortable with the fact that I'm Irish. And we met at a Catholic school.

Maybe it's the fact that I'm in college now and I'm starting to see what the whole ivory tower crap is about, but I've grown substantially more libertarian. That and I've seen the massive hypocrisy from the lefty students on campus (and I go to a comparatively conservative school).

Jesse Walker|8.20.09 @ 7:48PM|#

Given that your claim and Sager's essentially amounts to "to know them is to love them", that's hardly germane.

Sager's claim is that to not know them is to be less likely to love them, and he backs that up with data about people who, unlike you, say they don't know any gay people.

My claim builds on Sager's but is broader. You'll find it in the paragraph you waved aside as "hardly germane."

|8.20.09 @ 8:13PM|#

I dated an Italian girl for a while and her parents and grandparents were uncomfortable with the fact that I'm Irish. And we met at a Catholic school.

You don't know many Italians, do you?

"This is Kent Brockman, reporting from the St. Patrick's Day parade, where today everyone is a little bit Irish. Except, of course, for the gays and the Italians."

|8.20.09 @ 8:40PM|#

I'm over 50 and I knew a lot of gay people when I was young (still do). It's not something that mysteriously happened in the 21st century.

You must have lived in the gayest 1960's neighborhood in the country.

I lived across the bay from San Francisco in the 60's, visited friends on the other side of the bridge often, and didn't know anyone openly gay.

I was young, perhaps my gaydar wasn't fully developed. ;-)

|8.20.09 @ 8:52PM|#

And if you'd done a poll like this on the topic of marijuana legalization in 1970, there would have been similar results. Looks like the kids lost that one (in the same sense that Darth Vader killed Luke's father).

Mad Max|8.20.09 @ 9:00PM|#

Here's more fun news about the younger, more enlightened generation:

Younger voters are more likely than older voters to self-identify as liberal. They are also more likely to support government health insurance:

'While voters over the age of 30 were almost evenly divided on the desirability of a government-sponsored universal health insurance plan, voters under the age of 30 supported such a plan by a better than two-to-one margin.'

Of course, young voters were more likely than older voters to support Barack Obama for President in 2008.

So the good news is that liberalism and socialism are the wave of the future. You fuddy-duddies with your reactionay libertarianism will soon be going the way of the dodo.

Mad Max|8.20.09 @ 9:03PM|#

The reason for this superior enlightenment among the young is doubtless because they actually know socialists and know that socialists are human beings like you and me - so naturally they want to enact the political policies of such sympathetic people. Because understanding someone and being aware of their humanity must automatically translate into supporting their policy choices in the political arena.

The problem with old people is that they are ignorant and frightened. They're just scared of socialism because they deny the humanity of socialists. Good thing such unenlightened attitudes will soon be a thing of the past.

Matt|8.20.09 @ 9:37PM|#

Epi, where I'm from is almost entirely Italian with a sizable Polish population, too. The thing is, almost all my friends are Italian and I've almost never caught an ounce of crap from any of them.

It never occurred to me it'd be different if I was banging one of their daughters...

pmains|8.20.09 @ 11:25PM|#

Oh, Ruby on Rails! Psh! Python's Django platform runs twice as fast, and is based on a language that's adequately documented. Ruby's online documentation is painfully bad. I've written applications in many languages, and I've never seen anything like it.

So, DON'T abandon Perl for Ruby. Python is far superior, but, if you can stomach Catalyst for Perl, then you go. I just found the folks who run the project to be complete jerks, which is why I bolted for Python.

|8.20.09 @ 11:38PM|#

"This is a generational battle," Sager says, "and that means the younger generation wins...eventually."

Oh, that would explain why pot is legal now.

qwerty|8.20.09 @ 11:42PM|#

My definitive test for enlightenment is the emancipation of marriage from the political sphere.

hear, hear!

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Max Planck

|8.21.09 @ 12:57AM|#

Oh, that would explain why pot is legal now.

Would you disagree that it is treated as far less illegal than it was in 1967?

|8.21.09 @ 1:09AM|#

Would you disagree that it is treated as far less illegal than it was in 1967?

You're kidding, right?

Art-P.O.G.|8.21.09 @ 5:17AM|#

It never occurred to me it'd be different if I was banging one of their daughters...

Great sentence or greatest sentence?

</a|8.21.09 @ 5:25AM|#

Would you disagree that it is treated as far less illegal than it was in 1967?

How often were SWAT teams busting down people's doors in 1967?

anarch|8.21.09 @ 5:26AM|#

You're either very anti-Italian and/or very misogynist to call that a sentence.

Art-P.O.G.|8.21.09 @ 5:35AM|#

anarch,

Nice use of the alt-definition :D...but I wonder, do the ellipsis points at the end make a sentence infinite or fragmented?

Slap the Enlightened!|8.21.09 @ 5:40AM|#

My claim builds on Sager's but is broader. You'll find it in the paragraph you waved aside as "hardly germane."

Well, let's see - I went to look at how the data was gathered for this "study".

I can find no evidence of:

Methodology
Sample size
Corroborative evidence

In a word, there's nothing here that would allow us to verify whether this information is legitimate, or merely yanked out the ass.

anarch|8.21.09 @ 5:43AM|#

suspended

Art-P.O.G.|8.21.09 @ 5:59AM|#

If it's suspended then the part that the ellipsis points substitute for is some sort of meta-information, perhaps?

anarch|8.21.09 @ 6:04AM|#

suspended sentence; [upper] case dismissed

Art-P.O.G.|8.21.09 @ 6:15AM|#

anarch,

nice.

|8.21.09 @ 6:33AM|#

Oh, that would explain why pot is legal now.

Would you disagree that it is treated as far less illegal than it was in 1967?

You're kidding, right?

Well, I guess this varies greatly by jurisdiction. Move to a cooler town.

(I don't indulge myself -- this opinion is based upon on observation of my friends' interaction with cops in my city.)

anarch|8.21.09 @ 9:12AM|#

alt-def for suspended sentence: hanging

|8.21.09 @ 9:26AM|#

"This is a generational battle," Sager says, "and that means the younger generation wins...eventually."

That's why you can buy marijuana cigarettes at 7/11 now. You young folks may not remember this, but it used to be illegal!